Brahms Paganini Variations: Michelangeli vs. Arrau

[Citizen]

I just listened to Michelangeli's recording of Brahms's Variations on a
Theme by Paganini. A few days ago I heard Arrau's recording of the
same piece. Both were from Phillips's "Great Pianists of the 20th
Century" set.

Wow!

Michelangeli is incomparable here! This is probably the most
electrifying performance of any piano work I have ever heard. Arrau
doesn't even come close.

Thoughts?

BTW, this could be the second time I posted the same thread in a few
minutes; sorry for the annoyance.

[Tony]

Post by Citizen
I just listened to Michelangeli's recording of Brahms's Variations on a
Theme by Paganini. A few days ago I heard Arrau's recording of the
same piece. Both were from Phillips's "Great Pianists of the 20th
Century" set.
Wow!
Michelangeli is incomparable here! This is probably the most
electrifying performance of any piano work I have ever heard. Arrau
doesn't even come close.
Thoughts?

How about simply Michelangeli vs. Arrau, Celebrity Death Match? Would
be much more interesting than anything in boxing right now.

(incidentally, I think ABM's 50's recordings of the Brahms Paganini
Variations are his best (and thus among the very best ever), though I
think my current fave is Earl Wild's recording, a very lean reading to
excellent effect. If only Richter had performed them in his prime...)

[JohnGavin]

Post by Citizen
I just listened to Michelangeli's recording of Brahms's Variations on a
Theme by Paganini. A few days ago I heard Arrau's recording of the
same piece. Both were from Phillips's "Great Pianists of the 20th
Century" set.
Wow!
Michelangeli is incomparable here! This is probably the most
electrifying performance of any piano work I have ever heard.

I agree. It is IMO one of the greatest piano recordings of all time.
A demonstration of complete piano mastery - technically and tonally.


Arrau

Post by Citizen
doesn't even come close.
Thoughts?

.

[Tom Deacon]

On 7/10/05 6:33 AM, in article

Post by JohnGavin

Post by Citizen
I just listened to Michelangeli's recording of Brahms's Variations on a
Theme by Paganini. A few days ago I heard Arrau's recording of the
same piece. Both were from Phillips's "Great Pianists of the 20th
Century" set.
Wow!
Michelangeli is incomparable here! This is probably the most
electrifying performance of any piano work I have ever heard.

I agree. It is IMO one of the greatest piano recordings of all time.
A demonstration of complete piano mastery - technically and tonally.

As well as a demonstration of ABM's musical taste. His chopped up version of
this music is a veritable textbook case, I would say. After that, you need
no further proof.

But a pianistic master, no question about it.

TD

[JohnGavin]

The omissions and re-arrangement of variation order may have had to do
with time limitations. Remember, the 28 year old Michelangeli was
recording in the 78 rpm days. I don't find the rearrangement
particularly sacreligious. I wouldn't recommend doing it to the Handel
Variations however.

[Tom Deacon]

On 7/10/05 11:36 AM, in article

Post by JohnGavin
The omissions and re-arrangement of variation order may have had to do
with time limitations. Remember, the 28 year old Michelangeli was
recording in the 78 rpm days. I don't find the rearrangement
particularly sacreligious.

Nice of you to give him such lattitude in the music of Brahms.

I don't.

But do you also approve his "omissions"?

Incidentally, Backhaus had not trouble including them all in the correct
order, also on 78 RPM recordings some twenty-odd years prior to ABM's
butchery.

Moreover, he played them HIS way over and over again throughout his
lifetime. So there goes your argument.

TD

[ajb723]

Post by JohnGavin

Post by Citizen
I just listened to Michelangeli's recording of Brahms's Variations on a
Theme by Paganini. A few days ago I heard Arrau's recording of the
same piece. Both were from Phillips's "Great Pianists of the 20th
Century" set.
Wow!
Michelangeli is incomparable here! This is probably the most
electrifying performance of any piano work I have ever heard.

I agree. It is IMO one of the greatest piano recordings of all time.
A demonstration of complete piano mastery - technically and tonally.
Arrau

Post by Citizen
doesn't even come close.
Thoughts?

.

about 10 years ago, perhaps longer, a fellow named Mikhail Faerman recorded
these Variations in an excellent recording for DG. Does anyone know what
became of him?

[William Sommerwerck]

Michelangeli is incomparable here! This is probably the most
electrifying performance of any piano work I have ever heard.
Arrau doesn't even come close.

Not surprising. Arrau tends to play almost everything slowly, in a fussy,
mannered style (if you can call it a "style"). Micheangeli is able to make
sense of works that foil other pianists.

[w***@hotmail.com]

First of all, I hope my reply won't appear twice.. Something went
wrong...

You may not like Arrau's slow tempi, but I don't understand what you
mean by "fussy"playing. It was always a model of clarity (Listen to his
left hand in almost anything he played!). Don't forget that Arrau, just
like Richter, was well in his seventies when he recorded these taxing
variations. I find it quite an achievement to play music that calls for
the utmost virtuosity in such a non-virtuosic way. After so many
admirable pyrotechnics of Michelangeli, Kätchen or Kissin it is
interesting to hear such a version. It made me listen anew to a score I
thought I knew inside out!

Willem

[sidoze]

Post by w***@hotmail.com
After so many
admirable pyrotechnics of Michelangeli, Kätchen or Kissin it is
interesting to hear such a version. It made me listen anew to a score I
thought I knew inside out!
Willem

Absolutely, and it is the same with Gilels' late live recording from
'84 in Japan (and perhaps elsewhere). An absolute revelation IMO.

[Tom Deacon]

On 7/10/05 8:43 AM, in article

Post by sidoze

Post by w***@hotmail.com
After so many
admirable pyrotechnics of Michelangeli, Kätchen or Kissin it is
interesting to hear such a version. It made me listen anew to a score I
thought I knew inside out!
Willem

Absolutely, and it is the same with Gilels' late live recording from
'84 in Japan (and perhaps elsewhere). An absolute revelation IMO.

Gilels did not perform the complete work, I think.

And when I heard it in Toronto it was not on the ABM or Kissin or Arrau
level of accuracy.

His wife was on her knees in his dressing room saying prayers in front of an
icon throughout this recital. Some of them clearly missed their mark.

TD

[patter]

I must also agree. Arrau never played in a virtuoso manner-though he
could have,for he had technique to spare. He made music, pure and
simple. Either you like his way,or you'r e listening for fireworks.
Music takes many differing views-that's the miracle! I do love both ABM
& Claudio in this Brahms.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by patter
I must also agree. Arrau never played in a virtuoso manner-though he
could have,for he had technique to spare. He made music, pure and
simple. Either you like his way, or you're listening for fireworks.

I vehemently disagree.

In the best performances, from any artist, you feel you're hearing the
music -- not the performer's interpretation, or technical virtuosity for its
own sake. Two examples from my recent listening -- Chiu's Prokofiev piano
works and Buchbinder's Haydn piano sonatas.

I've yet to hear an Arrau performance that meets the standard of "music, not
performer". He and Wynton Marsalis are the only performers I've ever heard
whose performances I categorically dislike.

[Citizen]

ABM was a rather idiosynchratic pianist, like Richter. They both
ommitted parts of complete works that they didn't care for. I don't
know if this is the case here, though.

[Peter Lemken]

Post by Citizen
ABM was a rather idiosynchratic pianist, like Richter. They both
ommitted parts of complete works that they didn't care for. I don't
know if this is the case here, though.

Richter did that? Where and when?

Peter Lemken
Berlin

[Citizen]

For example, in Schumann's Fantasiestucke, Richter always omitted No. 4
(Grillen) and No. 6 (Fabel).

[Tom Deacon]

Post by Peter Lemken

Post by Citizen
ABM was a rather idiosynchratic pianist, like Richter. They both
ommitted parts of complete works that they didn't care for. I don't
know if this is the case here, though.

Richter did that? Where and when?

He omitted Grillen and Fabeln from the Fantasy Piece of Schumann and was
highly selective about Debussy Preludes and Chopin Preludes.

I am sure he justified his omissions by claiming that the pieces did not
have to be played as complete works.

TD

[Citizen]

I thought he merely said that he "did not care for them."

[patter]

sounds to me like you have your ears on backwards. glad i've got mine
and not yours.

[Spam Scone]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by patter
I must also agree. Arrau never played in a virtuoso manner-though he
could have,for he had technique to spare. He made music, pure and
simple. Either you like his way, or you're listening for fireworks.

I vehemently disagree.
In the best performances, from any artist, you feel you're hearing the
music -- not the performer's interpretation, or technical virtuosity for its
own sake. Two examples from my recent listening -- Chiu's Prokofiev piano
works and Buchbinder's Haydn piano sonatas.
I've yet to hear an Arrau performance that meets the standard of "music, not
performer". He and Wynton Marsalis are the only performers I've ever heard
whose performances I categorically dislike.

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who dislikes Marsalis - who ever
thought a trumpet could be so boring? The Ax of the brass world.

[JohnGavin]

I'd like to put in a good word for Ax - true, some of his work lacks
spark - but he has put out some truly excellent Brahms and Haydn. When
he's on, he's really quite excellent.

[Spam Scone]

Post by JohnGavin
I'd like to put in a good word for Ax - true, some of his work lacks
spark - but he has put out some truly excellent Brahms and Haydn. When
he's on, he's really quite excellent.

I was surprised at how good the Schubert "Trout" was that he recorded
with Yo-Yo Ma and 'friends' a decade ago. His earlier one from the
1980's was a snore. Just like his Beethoven concertos, and Brahms
concertos, and Chopin, and .....

[Wayne Reimer]

In article <***@corp.supernews.com>, ***@nwlink.com
says...

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by patter
I must also agree. Arrau never played in a virtuoso manner-though he
could have,for he had technique to spare. He made music, pure and
simple. Either you like his way, or you're listening for fireworks.

I vehemently disagree.
In the best performances, from any artist, you feel you're hearing the
music -- not the performer's interpretation, or technical virtuosity for its
own sake. Two examples from my recent listening -- Chiu's Prokofiev piano
works and Buchbinder's Haydn piano sonatas.
I've yet to hear an Arrau performance that meets the standard of "music, not
performer". He and Wynton Marsalis are the only performers I've ever heard
whose performances I categorically dislike.

That's a bizarre standard, to say the least, since there is no music to
be had without a performer's intervention and the illusion you're
talking about as desireable is entirely dependent on the listener's
sensibilities, and not on the performance. The idea of music, not
performer, has been argued to death here in the past in the LTMSFI
wars, and the concept was pretty much shown to have no validity upon
close examination, IIRC. Anyway, I bet you'd really really like MIDI
realizations of scores where the note values are exact and dynamic
nuance is minimal - have you tried them? There a lot on the internet.
Oh, and Nancarrow's player piano studies; tailor made for your taste
(they really are fantastic).

wr

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Wayne Reimer

Post by William Sommerwerck
I've yet to hear an Arrau performance that meets the standard of "music,
not performer". He and Wynton Marsalis are the only performers I've ever
heard whose performances I categorically dislike.

That's a bizarre standard, to say the least, since there is no music
to be had without a performer's intervention and the illusion you're
talking about as desirable is entirely dependent on the listener's
sensibilities, and not on the performance.

Well, yes. How is one supposed to judge a performance other than
subjectively?

Post by Wayne Reimer
The idea of music, not
performer, has been argued to death here in the past in the LTMSFI
wars, and the concept was pretty much shown to have no validity upon
close examination, IIRC. Anyway, I bet you'd really really like MIDI
realizations of scores where the note values are exact and dynamic
nuance is minimal -- have you tried them? There a lot on the internet.
Oh, and Nancarrow's player piano studies; tailor made for your taste
(they really are fantastic).

You're completely inverting the point of "music versus performer". It has
nothing whatever to do with a "note-perfect" rendition (which is usually a
bore, and has little to do with the composer's conception of the music *),
and the sense -- the illusion, if you like -- that one is listening to the
composer's thoughts.

No one has the right to criticize the way another person listens to or
reacts to music. If you don't like the fact that I (and other listeners)
just happen to react to particular performances in this way, that's just too
bad. Don't tell me you've /never/ had such a listening experience.

By the way, I have Conlon [sic] Nancarrow's player-piano studies. Some are,
indeed, fantastic. I'll have to pull them out and give them another listen.

* Didn't Mahler say something like "The score contains everything -- except
the important things", or something to that effect?

[Wayne Reimer]

In article <***@corp.supernews.com>, ***@nwlink.com
says...

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Wayne Reimer

Post by William Sommerwerck
I've yet to hear an Arrau performance that meets the standard of "music,
not performer". He and Wynton Marsalis are the only performers I've ever
heard whose performances I categorically dislike.

That's a bizarre standard, to say the least, since there is no music
to be had without a performer's intervention and the illusion you're
talking about as desirable is entirely dependent on the listener's
sensibilities, and not on the performance.

Well, yes. How is one supposed to judge a performance other than
subjectively?

Post by Wayne Reimer
The idea of music, not
performer, has been argued to death here in the past in the LTMSFI
wars, and the concept was pretty much shown to have no validity upon
close examination, IIRC. Anyway, I bet you'd really really like MIDI
realizations of scores where the note values are exact and dynamic
nuance is minimal -- have you tried them? There a lot on the internet.
Oh, and Nancarrow's player piano studies; tailor made for your taste
(they really are fantastic).

You're completely inverting the point of "music versus performer". It has
nothing whatever to do with a "note-perfect" rendition (which is usually a
bore, and has little to do with the composer's conception of the music *),
and the sense -- the illusion, if you like -- that one is listening to the
composer's thoughts.

The problem lies in your idea that Arrau and Marsalis are performer-
ahead-of-music artists, simply because that is the way your
sensibilities run. Others might have just the opposite experience, if
they feel that those two performers are doing what performers are
supposed to do with compositions. Put another way, you said 'the
standard of "music not performer"' as if it is some universally
understood thing, and I'm saying it is *your* standard, not *the*
standard, that's all.

Post by William Sommerwerck
No one has the right to criticize the way another person listens to or
reacts to music. If you don't like the fact that I (and other listeners)
just happen to react to particular performances in this way, that's just too
bad. Don't tell me you've /never/ had such a listening experience.

So, in that case, what gives you the right to criticise Arrau and
Marsalis? I can only assume that was your intent. They are performing
artists, you are the listening artist - why are you exempt from
criticism when they aren't?

wr

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Wayne Reimer
The problem lies in your idea that Arrau and Marsalis are performer-
ahead-of-music artists, simply because that is the way your
sensibilities run. Others might have just the opposite experience, if
they feel that those two performers are doing what performers are
supposed to do with compositions. Put another way, you said 'the
standard of "music not performer"' as if it is some universally
understood thing, and I'm saying it is *your* standard, not *the*
standard, that's all.

Post by William Sommerwerck
No one has the right to criticize the way another person listens to or
reacts to music. If you don't like the fact that I (and other listeners)
just happen to react to particular performances in this way, that's just
too bad. Don't tell me you've /never/ had such a listening experience.

So, in that case, what gives you the right to criticise Arrau and
Marsalis? I can only assume that was your intent. They are performing
artists, you are the listening artist -- why are you exempt from
criticism when they aren't?

No offense, but I really don't think you have a grasp of what we're talking
about here. Or you're not expressing your ideas very well. Or you're
perversely misreading what I wrote.

It seems to me that you want the right to like or dislike what you like or
dislike, but no one else is entitled to express _their_ opinions about
what's good and bad, and why.

[Wayne Reimer]

In article <***@corp.supernews.com>, ***@nwlink.com
says...

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Wayne Reimer
The problem lies in your idea that Arrau and Marsalis are performer-
ahead-of-music artists, simply because that is the way your
sensibilities run. Others might have just the opposite experience, if
they feel that those two performers are doing what performers are
supposed to do with compositions. Put another way, you said 'the
standard of "music not performer"' as if it is some universally
understood thing, and I'm saying it is *your* standard, not *the*
standard, that's all.

Post by William Sommerwerck
No one has the right to criticize the way another person listens to or
reacts to music. If you don't like the fact that I (and other listeners)
just happen to react to particular performances in this way, that's just
too bad. Don't tell me you've /never/ had such a listening experience.

So, in that case, what gives you the right to criticise Arrau and
Marsalis? I can only assume that was your intent. They are performing
artists, you are the listening artist -- why are you exempt from
criticism when they aren't?

No offense, but I really don't think you have a grasp of what we're talking
about here. Or you're not expressing your ideas very well. Or you're
perversely misreading what I wrote.
It seems to me that you want the right to like or dislike what you like or
dislike, but no one else is entitled to express _their_ opinions about
what's good and bad, and why.

That's always a good back-up position in a discussion..."the other
party is somehow defective, while I'm perfectly clear and
straightforward in all things". I like it so much that I think I'll
adopt it myself, instead of attempted to tease out of your post exactly
what it is you were attempting to say.

wr

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Wayne Reimer

It seems to me you want the right to like or dislike what you like or
dislike, but no one else is entitled to express _their_ opinions about
what's good and bad, and why.

That's always a good back-up position in a discussion..."the other
party is somehow defective, while I'm perfectly clear and
straightforward in all things". I like it so much that I think I'll
adopt it myself, instead of attempting to tease out of your post
exactly what it is you were attempting to say.

I was attempting to say what I said. You were reading your own presumptions
into it, rather than -- at least initially -- taking it at face value.

This argument really boils down to... "What's the point of expressing any
opinion about anything?".

[Dan Koren]

Post by William Sommerwerck
This argument really boils down to...
"What's the point of expressing any
opinion about anything?".

Precisely.



dk

[Wayne Reimer]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Wayne Reimer

It seems to me you want the right to like or dislike what you like or
dislike, but no one else is entitled to express _their_ opinions about
what's good and bad, and why.

That's always a good back-up position in a discussion..."the other
party is somehow defective, while I'm perfectly clear and
straightforward in all things". I like it so much that I think I'll
adopt it myself, instead of attempting to tease out of your post
exactly what it is you were attempting to say.

I was attempting to say what I said. You were reading your own presumptions
into it, rather than -- at least initially -- taking it at face value.

Oh, great, more of the "I'm completely clear, but you are not
responding the way I think you should" line of thought. Since you are
presuming that I'm presuming something, why not go ahead and let me
know what it is?

Post by William Sommerwerck
This argument really boils down to... "What's the point of expressing any
opinion about anything?".

Hmm, I wouldn't have thought of that, since it seems already pretty
clear that there there is no point to expressing your opinion about
anything here. It's a pointless pastime, at best. Blah, blah, blah,
signifying nothing.

wr

[patter]

In your opinion. Not in mine. And, as Arrau had a brilliant 80+ year
career and is considered one of the great pianists of the last
century,it would seem your's is a minority view. But, all views are
welcome-even minority views.

[Dan Koren]

Post by patter
In your opinion. Not in mine. And, as
Arrau had a brilliant 80+ year career
and is considered one of the great
pianists of the last century,it would
seem your's is a minority view. But,
all views are welcome-even minority
views.

Majority views carry no more value
than minority views -- just because
they happen to be shared by a larger
number of people. Truth, beauty and
logical correctness have nothing to
do with numbers.

Majority views are also a waste of
everybody's time, since we all know
what they are.



dk

[Tom Deacon]

Post by Dan Koren
Majority views are also a waste of
everybody's time, since we all know
what they are.

In your particular care minority views are also a waste of everybody's time.

We all know what your views are, Koren, and just how much time can be wasted
giving them the slightest consideration.

TD

[John Harrington]

<snip>Truth, beauty and
logical correctness have nothing to
do with numbers.

For that matter, they have nothing to do with each other, either.

Majority views are also a waste of
everybody's time, since we all know
what they are.

I don't. They change monthly.


J

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by patter
In your opinion. Not in mine. And, as Arrau had a brilliant 80+ year
career and is considered one of the great pianists of the last
century,it would seem your's is a minority view. But, all views are
welcome-even minority views.

I agree. How can you "objectively" determine the quality or lack thereof of
a particular recording? You pretty much can't.

By the way, I asked three friends who are classical listeners -- one of whom
is a pianist -- what they thought of Arrau, and they all dislike his
performances for pretty much the same reason I do -- slow, mannered, not
very insightful.

[patter]

I guess that pretty much means your right then. Doof.

[patter]

Gee-has your pianist friend been asked to perform a Beethoven sonata
cycle in N.Y.,London or Berlin? Because the "not very insightful"
pianist you mentioned was asked-and performed them to great critical &
public acclaim. Guess they were all just hoodwinked,and you're critical
faculties are clearly superior.

[obergrammarfuhrer]

Post by patter
Gee-has your pianist friend been asked to perform a Beethoven sonata
cycle in N.Y.,London or Berlin? Because the "not very insightful"
pianist you mentioned was asked-and performed them to great critical &
public acclaim. Guess they were all just hoodwinked,and you're critical
faculties are clearly superior.

Y'know, won of these days your going too have two sit down fore a minute or
to with you're favorite stile manual and get you're yours strait.

p.s. Just kidding, of coarse -- eye due it two -- butt dam, getting it
wrong both weighs inn successive posts? Irresistable! <arm flies out>

[patter]

Glad too sea yore pain clothes attention.

[obergrammarfuhrer]

Post by patter
Glad too sea yore pain clothes attention.

I wish. Like I said, it's involuntary. Indians riding across the trackless
prairie find themselves thinking "hmm, buffalo fart here last week." Kids
are like, omigod, could you believe that huge zit on Mariah Carey's nose?
And me, I get queasy every time someone types "could of." Cursed, I am, and
things ain't getting any easier as I get older.

[a***@att.net]

Post by patter
Gee-has your pianist friend been asked to perform a Beethoven sonata
cycle in N.Y.,London or Berlin? Because the "not very insightful"
pianist you mentioned was asked-and performed them to great critical &
public acclaim. Guess they were all just hoodwinked,and you're critical
faculties are clearly superior.

[a***@att.net]

Post by patter
Gee-has your pianist friend been asked to perform a Beethoven sonata
cycle in N.Y.,London or Berlin? Because the "not very insightful"
pianist you mentioned was asked-and performed them to great critical &
public acclaim. Guess they were all just hoodwinked,and you're critical
faculties are clearly superior.

The fact that Arrau performed the cycle is of no relevance. He had a
fabulous memory which enabled him to do that. Barenboim and others can
also do that.... so what!
"public acclaim" is also not relevant. The vast majority of the concert
going public are NOT musically sophisticated, they are just music
lovers.

I dont know anyting about the "critical faculties" of the person who
deemed Arrau "not very insightful" but he is absolutely correct.
If you want to hear interesting, vital playing, suggest you give a
listen to Kempff's mono version of the LvB cycle.... not note perfect
but so exciting.

AB

[patter]

I used to own the Kempff. Found it very lightweight-he didn't even play
the Hammerklavier 1st movement repeat! "Exciting" is not a high
priority in my Beethoven criteria. Kempff underwhelmed me. The fact
that you think of a Beethoven sonata cycle by Arrau as a "so what"
shows me all I need to know about your opinion. It wasn't the memory
aspect I was calling attention to-it was the epic overview of the whole
cycle (and Beethoven's output) that Arrau could and did put forth
better than any pianist with the possible exception of Schnabel. Bite
me.

[Tom Deacon]

On 7/12/05 8:40 PM, in article

Post by a***@att.net

Post by patter
Gee-has your pianist friend been asked to perform a Beethoven sonata
cycle in N.Y.,London or Berlin? Because the "not very insightful"
pianist you mentioned was asked-and performed them to great critical &
public acclaim. Guess they were all just hoodwinked,and you're critical
faculties are clearly superior.

The fact that Arrau performed the cycle is of no relevance. He had a
fabulous memory which enabled him to do that. Barenboim and others can
also do that.... so what!
"public acclaim" is also not relevant. The vast majority of the concert
going public are NOT musically sophisticated, they are just music
lovers.

I suppose that you realize, Arri, that your statement simply oozes arrogance
and snobbism. I know you to be arrogant - I have to claim the same quality,
which I prefer to call self-assurance - but I am not such an obvious snob.

"The public is never wrong" is something I have come to realize is one of
the truisms of life which is really true.

Post by a***@att.net
I dont know anyting about the "critical faculties" of the person who
deemed Arrau "not very insightful" but he is absolutely correct.

Wrong. He agrees with you, Arri.

Post by a***@att.net
If you want to hear interesting, vital playing, suggest you give a
listen to Kempff's mono version of the LvB cycle.... not note perfect
but so exciting.

Why are you so inadequately endowed with musical understanding that you are
unable to enjoy both?

TD

[Josep Vilanova]

Post by Tom Deacon
"The public is never wrong" is something I have come to realize is one of
the truisms of life which is really true.

The public, in it's broadest term of the music consumers, has a marked
preference for the music of Britney Spears over the music of Schubert.
Wouldn't that contradict that truism?


Josep (who, by the way, has always been an Arrau fan)

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Josep Vilanova

Post by Tom Deacon
"The public is never wrong" is something I have come to realize is one
of the truisms of life which is really true.

The public, in it's broadest term of the music consumers, has a marked
preference for the music of Britney Spears over the music of Schubert.
Wouldn't that contradict that truism?

The public is a flock of sheep who go where they are told. If they are
told to buy Britney Spears CDs, they do so. If they are told to download
Beethoven symphonies from the BBC, then they do that.

Post by Josep Vilanova
Josep (who, by the way, has always been an Arrau fan)

[Josep Vilanova]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Josep Vilanova

Post by Tom Deacon
"The public is never wrong" is something I have come to realize is one
of the truisms of life which is really true.

The public, in it's broadest term of the music consumers, has a marked
preference for the music of Britney Spears over the music of Schubert.
Wouldn't that contradict that truism?

The public is a flock of sheep who go where they are told. If they are
told to buy Britney Spears CDs, they do so. If they are told to download
Beethoven symphonies from the BBC, then they do that.

Tell me about that... I was writing that post because this week we have my
partner's younger sister staying with us. She only likes few pieces of
music, and those seem to be mostly by that woman who won American Idol
(whose name I have conveniently forgotten). She won't allow anything else
played and I have to go upstairs with my Mozart and my headphones. Hopefully
she'll leave soon.


J

[Tom Deacon]

Post by Josep Vilanova

Post by Tom Deacon
"The public is never wrong" is something I have come to realize is one of
the truisms of life which is really true.

The public, in it's broadest term of the music consumers, has a marked
preference for the music of Britney Spears over the music of Schubert.
Wouldn't that contradict that truism?

As far as popular music is concerned, perhaps.

As far as classical music is concerned, I would doubt it. Britney hasn't
done any Mozart, to my knowledge.

TD

[Josep Vilanova]

Post by Tom Deacon
As far as classical music is concerned, I would doubt it. Britney hasn't
done any Mozart, to my knowledge.
TD

If you allow me to play the devils advocate, I could say that the mass of
Mozart-consuming public still tend to prefer Hough to Hatto (I still shudder
after listening to a particularly horrible Mozart PC 23 with Hough at the
Proms a couple of years ago

J

[Tom Deacon]

Post by Josep Vilanova

Post by Tom Deacon
As far as classical music is concerned, I would doubt it. Britney hasn't
done any Mozart, to my knowledge.
TD

If you allow me to play the devils advocate, I could say that the mass of
Mozart-consuming public still tend to prefer Hough to Hatto (I still shudder
after listening to a particularly horrible Mozart PC 23 with Hough at the
Proms a couple of years ago

Not sure the public knows about either enough to make such a judgment.

TD

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by Josep Vilanova
If you allow me to play the devils advocate, I could say that the mass of
Mozart-consuming public still tend to prefer Hough to Hatto (I still shudder
after listening to a particularly horrible Mozart PC 23 with Hough at the
Proms a couple of years ago

Not sure the public knows about either enough to make such a judgment.

What do you need to know? You like something, or you don't.

This raises another point. Years ago, when delayed concerts were a stable of
classical radio, I'd often hear what were (to me) awful performances
enthusiastically received by the audience. (In rarer cases, the audience
would be cool to a performance I though quite good.) Was I a better judge
than they? Did the recording foul up the home listener's perception of the
performance?

Who knows.

[Tom Deacon]

Post by Josep Vilanova

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by Josep Vilanova
If you allow me to play the devils advocate, I could say that the mass of
Mozart-consuming public still tend to prefer Hough to Hatto (I still

shudder

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by Josep Vilanova
after listening to a particularly horrible Mozart PC 23 with Hough at the
Proms a couple of years ago

Not sure the public knows about either enough to make such a judgment.

What do you need to know? You like something, or you don't.

Perhaps you might allow a degree of logic in your argument.

If you don't know about something, you can't say you like it or not.

TD

[Josep Vilanova]

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Tom Deacon
Not sure the public knows about either enough to make such a judgment.

What do you need to know? You like something, or you don't.

Perhaps you might allow a degree of logic in your argument.
If you don't know about something, you can't say you like it or not.
TD

Wouldn't that contradict your argument that the public is always right? The
public may be right if given the right information to allow them to come up
with an informed choice. Most of the Britney Spears public has never had the
chance to listen to any Mozart, and most of the Hough-buying public have
only the Gramophone numerous "best recording of the month" awarded to Hough
to help them to decide which recordings to buy. What I am trying to say is
that public's knowledge can be influenced through extra-musical marketing
actions. Although, maybe, if given the right information, they could judge
in a different way.

Although, after all, Hough may be one of the artists with more 'gramophone
recordings of the month' under his belt, and he is not doing that well
either. I guess that, even with the right marketing, some things will never
sell.



J

[Tom Deacon]

Post by Josep Vilanova

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Tom Deacon
Not sure the public knows about either enough to make such a judgment.

What do you need to know? You like something, or you don't.

Perhaps you might allow a degree of logic in your argument.
If you don't know about something, you can't say you like it or not.
TD

Wouldn't that contradict your argument that the public is always right?

I don't think so.

Post by Josep Vilanova
The
public may be right if given the right information to allow them to come up
with an informed choice.

The public is always right in that their opinions are as valid as anyone
else's.

Your knowledge of Brittney Spears is, I would guess, fairly limited. And yet
you heap score on the lady. Many know a lot more about her and love her for
what she does and what she is and they are right to love her because they
want to and she makes them feel good. What is "wrong" about that?

Only a "holier than thou" arrogance would allow you to dismiss such
feelings, not to say love, for this lady as somehow "wrong".

Post by Josep Vilanova
Most of the Britney Spears public has never had the
chance to listen to any Mozart,

That doesn't make their opinions wrong. Uniformed, perhaps, on the widest
range of music, but I don't know a thing about rap music and yet I hesitate
to say that those who do don't know what they are doing or saying unless
they know who Mozart is or what he wrote. I am sorry they don't like what I
like, but that is as far as it goes.

Post by Josep Vilanova
and most of the Hough-buying public have
only the Gramophone numerous "best recording of the month" awarded to Hough
to help them to decide which recordings to buy.

You exaggerate the numbers. The circulation of the Gramophone is almost
confidential.

Post by Josep Vilanova
What I am trying to say is
that public's knowledge can be influenced through extra-musical marketing
actions.

Fair enough. That doesn't make their reactions "wrong".

Post by Josep Vilanova
Although, maybe, if given the right information, they could judge
in a different way.

"Right"?

Who is to say that you are right and they are wrong? YOU?

Post by Josep Vilanova
Although, after all, Hough may be one of the artists with more 'gramophone
recordings of the month' under his belt, and he is not doing that well
either. I guess that, even with the right marketing, some things will never
sell.

That is the history of the pop industry.

Tastes will always vary. Remember "new" Coke?

TD

[Josep Vilanova]

Post by Tom Deacon
The public is always right in that their opinions are as valid as anyone
else's.
Your knowledge of Brittney Spears is, I would guess, fairly limited.

I have a fairly good knowledge of that lady and I have listened to most of
her recorded input, in a somewhat unwilling way. I may concede that my
disliking of her may have extra-musical reasons.

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by Josep Vilanova
Although, maybe, if given the right information, they could judge
in a different way.

"Right"?
Who is to say that you are right and they are wrong? YOU?

There is always someone that has to judge. When you claim that you prefer
some performances to some other performances, you are stating your own
opinion. And, quite often you jump from that and you affirm that your
opinion is right and someone else's opinions are wrong (like when you said
that your opinion of Hough playing Rachmaninov was somewhat 'more right'
than the opinion of David Hurwitz or Bryce Morrison, and I am not disputing
your opinion on this particular case). What you did there is putting your
opinion as clearly 'right' contrasted to other people's 'wrong' opinion.


j

[Tom Deacon]

Post by Josep Vilanova

Post by Tom Deacon
The public is always right in that their opinions are as valid as anyone
else's.
Your knowledge of Brittney Spears is, I would guess, fairly limited.

I have a fairly good knowledge of that lady and I have listened to most of
her recorded input, in a somewhat unwilling way. I may concede that my
disliking of her may have extra-musical reasons.

Aha. Now were are getting the the heart of the matter.

Post by Josep Vilanova

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by Josep Vilanova
Although, maybe, if given the right information, they could judge
in a different way.

"Right"?
Who is to say that you are right and they are wrong? YOU?

There is always someone that has to judge.

Not judge, Josep. We can leave that to God, perhaps. But certainly "opine".

Post by Josep Vilanova
When you claim that you prefer
some performances to some other performances, you are stating your own
opinion. And, quite often you jump from that and you affirm that your
opinion is right and someone else's opinions are wrong (like when you said
that your opinion of Hough playing Rachmaninov was somewhat 'more right'
than the opinion of David Hurwitz or Bryce Morrison, and I am not disputing
your opinion on this particular case). What you did there is putting your
opinion as clearly 'right' contrasted to other people's 'wrong' opinion.

We will always make that attempt, Josep. You can't blame me for trying, can
you?

But in the end my opinion is just as worthless as the next man's.

Everyone is entitled to his own bad taste!

TD

[Dan Koren]

Post by Tom Deacon
Everyone is entitled to his own bad taste!

You certainly provide
the leading example.



dk

[a***@att.net]

Post by Dan Koren

Post by Tom Deacon
Everyone is entitled to his own bad taste!

You certainly provide
the leading example.
dk

reading some of TD's posts sometimes "leaves a bad taste in one's
mouth", no?

AB

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by a***@att.net
reading some of TD's posts sometimes "leaves a bad taste in one's
mouth", no?

Reason enough for some of us to killfile him and do our best to ignore him.
Same with DK.

[Tom Deacon]

On 7/14/05 2:39 PM, in article

Post by a***@att.net

Post by Dan Koren

Post by Tom Deacon
Everyone is entitled to his own bad taste!

You certainly provide
the leading example.
dk

reading some of TD's posts sometimes "leaves a bad taste in one's
mouth", no?

Hmmmm.

And some people survive on a diet of junk food.

Go figure.

TD

[Tom Deacon]

Post by Dan Koren

Post by Tom Deacon
Everyone is entitled to his own bad taste!

You certainly provide
the leading example.

Just one of millions.

But I like to lead. Hate to follow.

TD

[Dan Koren]

=============================================================

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by Dan Koren

Post by Tom Deacon
Everyone is entitled to his own bad taste!

You certainly provide
the leading example.

Just one of millions.
But I like to lead. Hate to follow.

Then drive an Audi.



dk

[Tom Deacon]

Post by Dan Koren
=============================================================

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by Dan Koren

Post by Tom Deacon
Everyone is entitled to his own bad taste!

You certainly provide
the leading example.

Just one of millions.
But I like to lead. Hate to follow.

Then drive an Audi.

I do, silly boy.

TD

[Dan Koren]

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by Dan Koren
=============================================================

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by Dan Koren

Post by Tom Deacon
Everyone is entitled to his own bad taste!

You certainly provide
the leading example.

Just one of millions.
But I like to lead. Hate to follow.

Then drive an Audi.

I do, silly boy.

No, you're probably just
hanging behind its wheel.



dk

[Tom Deacon]

Post by Dan Koren

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by Dan Koren
=============================================================

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by Dan Koren

Post by Tom Deacon
Everyone is entitled to his own bad taste!

You certainly provide
the leading example.

Just one of millions.
But I like to lead. Hate to follow.

Then drive an Audi.

I do, silly boy.

No, you're probably just
hanging behind its wheel.

The MB is just for backup. The Allroad is the REAL DEAL.

TD

[Dan Koren]

Post by Tom Deacon
Tastes will always vary. Remember "new" Coke?

Even "new" coke tasted better than Arrau.



dk

[patter]

I am truly amazed by your astounding ability to prove that you have no
musical sense whatsoever.

[Tom Deacon]

On 7/14/05 2:34 PM, in article

Post by patter
I am truly amazed by your astounding ability to prove that you have no
musical sense whatsoever.

Since your post arrives without any context at all, I suppose you are
talking about God?

Are you surprised?

TD

[Tom Deacon]

Post by Dan Koren

Post by Tom Deacon
Tastes will always vary. Remember "new" Coke?

Even "new" coke tasted better than Arrau.

And certainly better than old Koren.

TD

[Dan Koren]

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by Dan Koren

Post by Tom Deacon
Tastes will always vary. Remember "new" Coke?

Even "new" coke tasted better than Arrau.

And certainly better than old Koren.

I never competed in the soda department.



dk

[Tom Deacon]

Post by Dan Koren

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by Dan Koren

Post by Tom Deacon
Tastes will always vary. Remember "new" Coke?

Even "new" coke tasted better than Arrau.

And certainly better than old Koren.

I never competed in the soda department.

Surprising.

You're full of gas.

TD

[Dan Koren]

"Tom Deacon" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:BEFD437A.5F6E%***@yahoo.com...
\>

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by Dan Koren

Post by Tom Deacon

Post by Dan Koren

Post by Tom Deacon
Tastes will always vary. Remember "new" Coke?

Even "new" coke tasted better than Arrau.

And certainly better than old Koren.

I never competed in the soda department.

Surprising.
You're full of gas.

No. Crude.



dk

[a***@att.net]

Post by a***@att.net
The fact that Arrau performed the cycle is of no relevance. He had a

Post by a***@att.net
fabulous memory which enabled him to do that. Barenboim and others can
also do that.... so what!
"public acclaim" is also not relevant. The vast majority of the concert
going public are NOT musically sophisticated, they are just music
lovers.

I suppose that you realize, Arri, that your statement simply oozes arrogance
and snobbism. I know you to be arrogant - I have to claim the same quality,

you dont have to "claim the same quality". it is very clear and it also
oozes out of you, from every orifice.....

which I prefer to call self-assurance - but I am not such an obvious
snob.

all your qualities, mostly bad and the very few good are obivous.......

"The public is never wrong" is something I have come to realize is
one of

Post by a***@att.net
the truisms of life which is really true.

that is why we elected Bush???????????

I dont know anyting about the "critical faculties" of the person who

Post by a***@att.net

Post by a***@att.net
deemed Arrau "not very insightful" but he is absolutely correct.

Wrong. He agrees with you, Arri.

You are losing it TD...... nobody says he does not agree with me..

Post by a***@att.net

Post by a***@att.net
If you want to hear interesting, vital playing, suggest you give a
listen to Kempff's mono version of the LvB cycle.... not note perfect
but so exciting.

Why are you so inadequately endowed with musical understanding that you are
unable to enjoy both?

you are endowed with inadequate musical descrimination and you probably
could not tell the difference bewteen Arrau and Kempff, not to mention
Brendel:-)

AB

[Tom Deacon]

On 7/13/05 7:42 PM, in article

Post by Tom Deacon
"The public is never wrong" is something I have come to realize is one of

Post by Tom Deacon
the truisms of life which is really true.

that is why we elected Bush???????????

Oh, if only that were true.

The Supremes elected Dubya, with help from Karl Rove.

And you only get the government you deserve, remember.

TD

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by patter
Gee-has your pianist friend been asked to perform a Beethoven sonata
cycle in N.Y.,London or Berlin? Because the "not very insightful"
pianist you mentioned was asked-and performed them to great critical &
public acclaim. Guess they were all just hoodwinked,and you're critical
faculties are clearly superior.

Kiri is not a very good singer, but she gets asked to perform.

Just because someone has the technical faculty to play Beethoven, doesn't
mean they understand Beethoven.

[patter]

Nobody understood Beethoven better than Arrau. Kiri (in her prime) was
a fine singer with a wonderful voice.

[Tom Deacon]

On 7/12/05 9:28 PM, in article

Post by patter
Nobody understood Beethoven better than Arrau. Kiri (in her prime) was
a fine singer with a wonderful voice.

Right on both counts.

TD

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by patter
Gee-has your pianist friend been asked to perform a Beethoven sonata
cycle in N.Y.,London or Berlin? Because the "not very insightful"
pianist you mentioned was asked-and performed them to great critical &
public acclaim. Guess they were all just hoodwinked,and you're critical
faculties are clearly superior.

Kiri is not a very good singer, but she gets asked to perform.
Just because someone has the technical faculty to play Beethoven, doesn't
mean they understand Beethoven.

And the best-selling tenor singer has a teeny-tiny voice with a narrow
range of volume and very little expressiveness.

[Tom Deacon]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by patter
Gee-has your pianist friend been asked to perform a Beethoven sonata
cycle in N.Y.,London or Berlin? Because the "not very insightful"
pianist you mentioned was asked-and performed them to great critical &
public acclaim. Guess they were all just hoodwinked,and you're critical
faculties are clearly superior.

Kiri is not a very good singer, but she gets asked to perform.

Kiri has (or had, rather, I have not heard her recently) a fabulous voice,
one which most sopranos would kill for.

Your point is that you don't like her, which is something quite different.

Post by William Sommerwerck
Just because someone has the technical faculty to play Beethoven, doesn't
mean they understand Beethoven.

And just because someone knows that Beethoven wrote 32 sonatas doesn't mean
they understand them.

TD

[Tom Deacon]

Post by William Sommerwerck
By the way, I asked three friends who are classical listeners -- one of whom
is a pianist -- what they thought of Arrau, and they all dislike his
performances for pretty much the same reason I do -- slow, mannered, not
very insightful.

The problem is clearly in the listeners: quick, square as a board, and
impervious to insight.

TD

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"Citizen" <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:1120970471.894568.281630

Post by Citizen
I just listened to Michelangeli's recording of Brahms's Variations on a
Theme by Paganini. A few days ago I heard Arrau's recording of the
same piece. Both were from Phillips's "Great Pianists of the 20th
Century" set.
Wow!
Michelangeli is incomparable here! This is probably the most
electrifying performance of any piano work I have ever heard. Arrau
doesn't even come close.
Thoughts?
BTW, this could be the second time I posted the same thread in a few
minutes; sorry for the annoyance.

My dumb question this time is: Does he play the entire contents of both
books? I'm aware he mixes 'em up.

[Peter Lemken]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
My dumb question this time is: Does he play the entire contents of both
books? I'm aware he mixes 'em up.

In all the ABM recordings Iof the Paganini variations I know he uses various
ways of combining the two books, but he never played the variations in the
order Brahms published them. He always plays the finale of the first book
as final piece, in the mentioned Arezzo recording he even plays this last
variation without the obvious cuts of the studio recording.

Has this Arezzo recording (published by Fonit Cetra) ever found its way onto
a CD?

Peter Lemken
Berlin

[JohnGavin]

Post by Peter Lemken

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
My dumb question this time is: Does he play the entire contents of both
books? I'm aware he mixes 'em up.

In all the ABM recordings Iof the Paganini variations I know he uses various
ways of combining the two books, but he never played the variations in the
order Brahms published them. He always plays the finale of the first book
as final piece, in the mentioned Arezzo recording he even plays this last
variation without the obvious cuts of the studio recording.
Has this Arezzo recording (published by Fonit Cetra) ever found its way onto
a CD?
Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
Was schlechten Geschmack so berauschend macht, ist die aristokratische
Wonne der Verärgerung.
-- Charles Baudelaire

Yes Peter, the Arezzo recital (part of it at least) is issued on an
Archipel Records CD (ARPCD 0054). As well as the Brahms, it contains
a Beethoven op. 2 #3 and a Chopin Bb Minor Sonata.

[JohnGavin]

By the way, this Archipel CD is available from MDT at a bargain price.

[Sol L. Siegel]

Post by JohnGavin
Yes Peter, the Arezzo recital (part of it at least) is issued on an
Archipel Records CD (ARPCD 0054). As well as the Brahms, it
contains a Beethoven op. 2 #3 and a Chopin Bb Minor Sonata.
By the way, this Archipel CD is available from MDT at a bargain price.

And from Berkshire for less - assuming that you have a big enough order
to meet their $15 minimum.

[Alan Cooper]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 02:51:30 GMT, "Sol L. Siegel"

Post by Sol L. Siegel

Post by JohnGavin
Yes Peter, the Arezzo recital (part of it at least) is issued on an
Archipel Records CD (ARPCD 0054). As well as the Brahms, it
contains a Beethoven op. 2 #3 and a Chopin Bb Minor Sonata.
By the way, this Archipel CD is available from MDT at a bargain price.

And from Berkshire for less - assuming that you have a big enough order
to meet their $15 minimum.

It's not listed by Berkshire, and the Michelangeli performances of the
Brahms that are available there are not the one under discussion.

AC

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Peter Lemken

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
My dumb question this time is: Does he play the entire contents of
both books? I'm aware he mixes 'em up.

In all the ABM recordings Iof the Paganini variations I know he uses
various ways of combining the two books, but he never played the
variations in the order Brahms published them. He always plays the
finale of the first book as final piece, in the mentioned Arezzo
recording he even plays this last variation without the obvious cuts of
the studio recording.

If he omits any of the music, then IMAO it should never be regarded as a
first recommendation.

Post by Peter Lemken
Has this Arezzo recording (published by Fonit Cetra) ever found its way
onto a CD?

[Tony]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Peter Lemken

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
My dumb question this time is: Does he play the entire contents of
both books? I'm aware he mixes 'em up.

In all the ABM recordings Iof the Paganini variations I know he uses
various ways of combining the two books, but he never played the
variations in the order Brahms published them. He always plays the
finale of the first book as final piece, in the mentioned Arezzo
recording he even plays this last variation without the obvious cuts of
the studio recording.

If he omits any of the music, then IMAO it should never be regarded as a
first recommendation.

Of course there isn't any more music missing from ABM's Brahms Paganini
Variations than there is in any of Schnabel's Beethoven sonata
recordings... :)

[Paul Goldstein]

In article <***@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Citizen
says...

Post by Citizen
I just listened to Michelangeli's recording of Brahms's Variations on a
Theme by Paganini. A few days ago I heard Arrau's recording of the
same piece. Both were from Phillips's "Great Pianists of the 20th
Century" set.
Wow!
Michelangeli is incomparable here! This is probably the most
electrifying performance of any piano work I have ever heard. Arrau
doesn't even come close.
Thoughts?

I like Faerman better than either of those.