New Jersey Dvorak

[A. Brain]

A recent NYT article about New Jersey Dvorak
recordings and performances reminded me of
a really enthusiastic review I read somewhere.

Here's the Times article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/04/arts/music/04HIGH.html

Apparently they have recorded the Requiem, the Stabat
Mater, and more. I can't recall which got the rave review.

I have the Kertesz and the Ancerl Requiems--both superb,
and just picked up the Smetacek Stabat.

It's hard for me to believe that an orchestra in New Jersey,
right between NYC and Philadelphia, could be thriving,
and even recording (on Delos). Tough competition on
record here, but at least they are not recording
Beethoven or Brahms and thereby competing with
other American orchestras.

I don't think the "Big Five" in the U.S. (commonly
thought to be Boston, NY, Philadelphia, Chicago,
and Cleveland) ever recorded any of the Dvorak
choral works. Shaw recorded the Dvorak Stabat
in Atlanta.

[Bill McCutcheon]

Post by A. Brain
A recent NYT article about New Jersey Dvorak
recordings and performances reminded me of
a really enthusiastic review I read somewhere.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/04/arts/music/04HIGH.html
Apparently they have recorded the Requiem, the Stabat
Mater, and more. I can't recall which got the rave review.
[snip]
--
A. Brain

Zdenek Macal was Conductor/Musical Director of the Milwaukee SO before
he left for NJ several years ago. I like the recordings he did here
in Milwaukee of Dvorak's complete symphonies, have recommended them on
this NG a couple of times. I haven't heard any of the recordings he's
done in NJ, so can't comment on these latest efforts.
-- Bill McC.

[Van Eyes]

Post by Bill McCutcheon
Zdenek Macal was Conductor/Musical Director of the Milwaukee SO before
he left for NJ several years ago. I like the recordings he did here
in Milwaukee of Dvorak's complete symphonies, have recommended them on
this NG a couple of times. I haven't heard any of the recordings he's
done in NJ, so can't comment on these latest efforts.

His Milwaukee-recorded Dvorak 9 (Koss), I thought more successful than
the NJ, with the long-ago LPO version beating both (note also a fine LPO
Dvorak Clo. Cto. w. Cohen). His Milwaukee Ma Vlast is a frontrunner for
many.
Of NJ recordings (Delos), I'd say first, Gliere Sym 2, and Berlioz Sym.
Fant. Secondly, Mussorgsky/Ravel "Pictures". I saw Macal conduct the
latter with the Vancouver SO. Hadta be one of their best outings ever.
The players were snapping their suspenders afterward.


Regards

[Eric Nagamine]

Post by Van Eyes

Post by Bill McCutcheon
Zdenek Macal was Conductor/Musical Director of the Milwaukee SO before
he left for NJ several years ago. I like the recordings he did here
in Milwaukee of Dvorak's complete symphonies, have recommended them on
this NG a couple of times. I haven't heard any of the recordings he's
done in NJ, so can't comment on these latest efforts.

His Milwaukee-recorded Dvorak 9 (Koss), I thought more successful than
the NJ, with the long-ago LPO version beating both (note also a fine LPO
Dvorak Clo. Cto. w. Cohen). His Milwaukee Ma Vlast is a frontrunner for
many.
Of NJ recordings (Delos), I'd say first, Gliere Sym 2, and Berlioz Sym.
Fant. Secondly, Mussorgsky/Ravel "Pictures". I saw Macal conduct the
latter with the Vancouver SO. Hadta be one of their best outings ever.
The players were snapping their suspenders afterward.
Regards

Pictures & the New World are signature pieces for Macal. He did
wonderful performances of them in Honolulu when he guested here during
the Johanos era.

[Thomas Müthing]

Post by A. Brain
A recent NYT article about New Jersey Dvorak
recordings and performances reminded me of
a really enthusiastic review I read somewhere.

They are not world class, sorry. The New Jersey Symphony, even on the
best of days (as most recordings days are) isn't the Czech Philharmonic,
not even the Czech Philharmonic of today. Incidentally, the NJSO's
conductor is just moving to Prague, so maybe wait for Macal/Dvorák from
THERE.

Thomas

[Alan Watkins]

Post by Thomas Müthing

Post by A. Brain
A recent NYT article about New Jersey Dvorak
recordings and performances reminded me of
a really enthusiastic review I read somewhere.

They are not world class, sorry. The New Jersey Symphony, even on the
best of days (as most recordings days are) isn't the Czech Philharmonic,
not even the Czech Philharmonic of today. Incidentally, the NJSO's
conductor is just moving to Prague, so maybe wait for Macal/Dvorák from
THERE.
Thomas

I cannot comment on the New Jersey Orchestra recordings for I have not
heard them and am not qualified, therefore, to comment. However it
has a very fine timpanist in Randall Hicks (a student of Cloyd Duff)
and also a noted exponent of kit drumming for Presley, Tom Jones, Tony
Bennett and Trini Lopez among others I probably do not know about.

Of course they are not the Czech Philharmonic or "not even the Czech
Philharmonic of today".

One of the problems of the "Czech Philharmonic of today" is that they
have had successive music directors intent on changing the original
sound of the Czech Philharmonic which you may prefer to the "Czech
Philharmonic of today". In that they have been aided and abetted by
the management.

Mr Macal will not do that. Although now an American citizen he is
"going home" and, by the way, is not moving to Prague. He has always
maintained an apartment in the city for that is where his family are.

I played for him in Mahler 5/9 recordings and think him a great
musician. We are not the Czech Philharmonic or "not even the Czech
Philharmonic of today" but he did not ask us to change our sound and
he has already said in interviews in Prague that he will going back to
the "Czech sound".

But let us look on the bright side. Would this repertoire have come
to New Jersey without the conductor? I rather doubt it personally,
despite whatever deficiencies his recordings/performances may have.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

[Floyd Patterson]

As usual...good point.

Post by Alan Watkins

Post by Thomas Müthing

Post by A. Brain
A recent NYT article about New Jersey Dvorak
recordings and performances reminded me of
a really enthusiastic review I read somewhere.

They are not world class, sorry. The New Jersey Symphony, even on the
best of days (as most recordings days are) isn't the Czech Philharmonic,
not even the Czech Philharmonic of today. Incidentally, the NJSO's
conductor is just moving to Prague, so maybe wait for Macal/Dvorák from
THERE.
Thomas

I cannot comment on the New Jersey Orchestra recordings for I have not
heard them and am not qualified, therefore, to comment. However it
has a very fine timpanist in Randall Hicks (a student of Cloyd Duff)
and also a noted exponent of kit drumming for Presley, Tom Jones, Tony
Bennett and Trini Lopez among others I probably do not know about.
Of course they are not the Czech Philharmonic or "not even the Czech
Philharmonic of today".
One of the problems of the "Czech Philharmonic of today" is that they
have had successive music directors intent on changing the original
sound of the Czech Philharmonic which you may prefer to the "Czech
Philharmonic of today". In that they have been aided and abetted by
the management.
Mr Macal will not do that. Although now an American citizen he is
"going home" and, by the way, is not moving to Prague. He has always
maintained an apartment in the city for that is where his family are.
I played for him in Mahler 5/9 recordings and think him a great
musician. We are not the Czech Philharmonic or "not even the Czech
Philharmonic of today" but he did not ask us to change our sound and
he has already said in interviews in Prague that he will going back to
the "Czech sound".
But let us look on the bright side. Would this repertoire have come
to New Jersey without the conductor? I rather doubt it personally,
despite whatever deficiencies his recordings/performances may have.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

[Bill McCutcheon]

Post by Alan Watkins
I cannot comment on the New Jersey Orchestra recordings for I have not
heard them and am not qualified, therefore, to comment. However it
has a very fine timpanist in Randall Hicks (a student of Cloyd Duff)
and also a noted exponent of kit drumming for Presley, Tom Jones, Tony
Bennett and Trini Lopez among others I probably do not know about.
Of course they are not the Czech Philharmonic or "not even the Czech
Philharmonic of today".
One of the problems of the "Czech Philharmonic of today" is that they
have had successive music directors intent on changing the original
sound of the Czech Philharmonic which you may prefer to the "Czech
Philharmonic of today". In that they have been aided and abetted by
the management.
Mr Macal will not do that. Although now an American citizen he is
"going home" and, by the way, is not moving to Prague. He has always
maintained an apartment in the city for that is where his family are.
I played for him in Mahler 5/9 recordings and think him a great
musician. We are not the Czech Philharmonic or "not even the Czech
Philharmonic of today" but he did not ask us to change our sound and
he has already said in interviews in Prague that he will going back to
the "Czech sound".
But let us look on the bright side. Would this repertoire have come
to New Jersey without the conductor? I rather doubt it personally,
despite whatever deficiencies his recordings/performances may have.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

Macal was a bit of martinet when he was here. For example, he tried
to summarily dismiss one musician (the timpanist, BTW), with complete
disregard for the contract between the musicians and the orchestra.

Musically, the knock against him was that his repertoire consisted
almost entirely of works from the late Romantic period. I enjoyed
most of his concerts. As I mentioned earlier, I think his Dvorak
recordings with the Milwaukee SO were excellent. I, too, haven't
heard any of his recordings in NJ.

-- Bill McC.

[Andrew T. Kay]

Post by Alan Watkins
I cannot comment on the New Jersey Orchestra recordings for I have

not

Post by Alan Watkins
heard them and am not qualified,

I have not heard any of them either, but I *have* heard (from someone I
consider a reliable judge) that the NJ recording of the Dvorak Requiem, while
perhaps not as special a performance overall as the old Ancerl/DG, is a worthy
effort, and far outdistances the few previous recordings of this beautiful and
stirring work in one respect -- the up-to-date recording quality. (This, for a
work with such dynamic extremes and massive climaxes, is a not-inconsiderable
virtue.) So it's something that's been in my "queue" to hear for a while --
I'll report back when that happens.

Actually, two printed reviews I've read single out the NJ orchestra and the
conductor for praise; the chief reservation expressed in both is about the
soloists.


--Todd K

[Richard Schultz]

In article <fNMKb.29625$***@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>, Bill McCutcheon <***@earthlink.net> wrote:

: Macal was a bit of martinet when he was here. For example, he tried
: to summarily dismiss one musician (the timpanist, BTW), with complete
: disregard for the contract between the musicians and the orchestra.

More damning, of course, was his having the world's last great
Heldentenor in his back yard and refusing to hire him as a soloist.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"What I do object to is uninformed malicious pandering to low level
uncouthness, even if it comes from the holiest of lands, Israel!"
-- Kenneth Lane, Wagnerian Romantischer Heldenspammer

[Donald C. Patterson]

Post by Richard Schultz
: Macal was a bit of martinet when he was here. For example, he tried
: to summarily dismiss one musician (the timpanist, BTW), with complete
: disregard for the contract between the musicians and the orchestra.
More damning, of course, was his having the world's last great
Heldentenor in his back yard and refusing to hire him as a soloist.

Very good.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

--B_3156319625_85723

Post by Richard Schultz
: Macal was a bit of martinet when he was here. For example, he
: tried to summarily dismiss one musician (the timpanist, BTW), with
: complete disregard for the contract between the musicians and the
: orchestra.
More damning, of course, was his having the world's last great
Heldentenor in his back yard and refusing to hire him as a soloist.

Very good.

Don, there's some sort of odd JPG loading with your messages. Please check
into it.

(Macal did that? I thought it was Sir Rudolf Bing!)

[Bill McCutcheon]

Post by Richard Schultz
: Macal was a bit of martinet when he was here. For example, he tried
: to summarily dismiss one musician (the timpanist, BTW), with

complete

Post by Richard Schultz
: disregard for the contract between the musicians and the

orchestra.

Post by Richard Schultz
More damning, of course, was his having the world's last great
Heldentenor in his back yard and refusing to hire him as a soloist.
-----

LOL!!
-- Bill McC.

[Alan Watkins]

Post by Bill McCutcheon
Macal was a bit of martinet when he was here. For example, he tried
to summarily dismiss one musician (the timpanist, BTW), with complete
disregard for the contract between the musicians and the orchestra.
Musically, the knock against him was that his repertoire consisted
almost entirely of works from the late Romantic period. I enjoyed
most of his concerts. As I mentioned earlier, I think his Dvorak
recordings with the Milwaukee SO were excellent. I, too, haven't
heard any of his recordings in NJ.
-- Bill McC.

I am really surprised by that. That has not been my experience of
him, quite the opposite in fact. I find him extremely affable.
Orchestras like him a lot although he does go on a bit in
rehearsals:):)

I am also surprised that the orchestra was dissatisfied with his
repertoire. He has always had a keen interest in promoting
contemporary composers and in the CR has given master classes for
student conductors on how to deal with the sometimes complex
rhythms/metres of contemporary music. He has also helped some
contemporary composers by championing their work and trying to bring
it to attention. May be not in America, but he has certainly done so
in the past.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

[Bill McCutcheon]

Post by Alan Watkins

Post by Bill McCutcheon
Macal was a bit of martinet when he was here. For example, he tried
to summarily dismiss one musician (the timpanist, BTW), with

complete

Post by Alan Watkins

Post by Bill McCutcheon
disregard for the contract between the musicians and the

orchestra.

Post by Alan Watkins

Post by Bill McCutcheon
Musically, the knock against him was that his repertoire consisted
almost entirely of works from the late Romantic period. I enjoyed
most of his concerts. As I mentioned earlier, I think his Dvorak
recordings with the Milwaukee SO were excellent. I, too, haven't
heard any of his recordings in NJ.
-- Bill McC.

I am really surprised by that. That has not been my experience of
him, quite the opposite in fact. I find him extremely affable.
Orchestras like him a lot although he does go on a bit in
rehearsals:):)
I am also surprised that the orchestra was dissatisfied with his
repertoire. He has always had a keen interest in promoting
contemporary composers and in the CR has given master classes for
student conductors on how to deal with the sometimes complex
rhythms/metres of contemporary music. He has also helped some
contemporary composers by championing their work and trying to bring
it to attention. May be not in America, but he has certainly done so
in the past.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

It's been more than 10 years now since he left Milwaukee, and probably
12-15 since the timpanist incident, so I expect his interpersonal
skills have improved and he's matured, mellowed, and expanded his
repertoire as a conductor since then.

I should note, also, that I'm not a musician and have had no
professional nor personal dealings with him whatsoever. My remarks
are strictly second-hand, based on locally well publicized accounts
and conversations I've had with a couple of MSO musicians.

-- Bill McC.

[Raymond Hall]

"Alan Watkins" <***@aol.com> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
| Thomas M�thing <tmuethingBUGGER-OFF-***@t-online.de> wrote in message news:<bte4ru$a8v$05$***@news.t-online.com>...
| > A. Brain schrieb:
| >
| > > A recent NYT article about New Jersey Dvorak
| > > recordings and performances reminded me of
| > > a really enthusiastic review I read somewhere.
| >
|
| Mr Macal will not do that. Although now an American citizen he is
| "going home" and, by the way, is not moving to Prague. He has always
| maintained an apartment in the city for that is where his family are.

I wasn't overly impressed with Macal's Dvorak 9th with the RLPO on CfP or
Eminence, and his coupling of Dvorak's Symphonic Variations was just sheer
boresville to my ears. No sparkle at all. Never remotely matched Vaclav
Neumann on Supraphon in the 9th symphony and along with Neumann's 7th which
I still rank as the one of the very best. On the basis of the Neumann 7th
and 9th, I'd be fairly confident about his complete set on Supraphon.

Colin Davis, and even slightly better for the Symphonic Variations, is
Kubelik, along with Kubelik's sparking Slavonic Dances (mit the Bav RSO).

Maybe Macal had an off day in the studio and with the RLPO, but I wasn't
much impressed at all. Sluggish all round imo.

Give me Herr Izzit anyday.

Regards,

# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)

Ray, Taree, NSW

[Thomas Müthing]

Post by Alan Watkins
Mr Macal will not do that. Although now an American citizen he is
"going home" and, by the way, is not moving to Prague.

I meant, in a professional sense. It doesn't really matter where his
summer spa is. ;-)

I have heard Macal conduct several times (live in Cologne, with the West
German Radio Symphony) and got his two recordings of the Smetana Ma
Vlast (one with the former South West German Radio Symphony of
Baden-Baden, one with the Milwaukee Symphony - both solid, if not
outstanding), and maybe his competent, unpretentious style is exactly
what the CzPO needs after Ashkenazy.

Thomas

[Mazzolata]

Post by A. Brain
I don't think the "Big Five" in the U.S. (commonly
thought to be Boston, NY, Philadelphia, Chicago,
and Cleveland) ...<snip>

I'm sure that L.A. would dispute that these days ...

[A. Brain]

Post by Mazzolata

Post by A. Brain
I don't think the "Big Five" in the U.S. (commonly
thought to be Boston, NY, Philadelphia, Chicago,
and Cleveland) ...<snip>

I'm sure that L.A. would dispute that these days ...

Actually, the conventional wisdom is that
there is probably a "Big Ten" or "Big Twelve"
these days--despite those reports of classical
music on the ropes (and continued crises in
funding).

At a recent Houston Symphony concert,
I was looking at the original reviews of the
opening of Jones Hall in 1966 (where
Barbirolli led the orchestra and assembled
forces in the Mahler 3rd). Even then, the
reviewers were comparing the HSO to
the "Big Five" and saying that the HSO
was knocking on the door.

Surely San Francisco, St. Louis, Houston,
LA, and Pittsburgh are roughly equal to the
traditional big five. Houston has lost some
fine players--notably cellist Desmond Hoebig--
but it's still a great orchestra.

I've even seen some suggestions here lately
that HSO recordings of Brahms and Bruckner
are competitive.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Actually, the conventional wisdom is that there is probably a "Big Ten"
or "Big Twelve" these days--despite those reports of classical music on
the ropes (and continued crises in funding).

I almost think we should burn down all of the 'spensive new halls, and use
the insurance money to fund the orchestras themselves, even if they have to
play in tents.

[Eric Nagamine]

Post by A. Brain

Post by Mazzolata

Post by A. Brain
I don't think the "Big Five" in the U.S. (commonly
thought to be Boston, NY, Philadelphia, Chicago,
and Cleveland) ...<snip>

I'm sure that L.A. would dispute that these days ...

Actually, the conventional wisdom is that
there is probably a "Big Ten" or "Big Twelve"
these days--despite those reports of classical
music on the ropes (and continued crises in
funding).
At a recent Houston Symphony concert,
I was looking at the original reviews of the
opening of Jones Hall in 1966 (where
Barbirolli led the orchestra and assembled
forces in the Mahler 3rd). Even then, the
reviewers were comparing the HSO to
the "Big Five" and saying that the HSO
was knocking on the door.
Surely San Francisco, St. Louis, Houston,
LA, and Pittsburgh are roughly equal to the
traditional big five. Houston has lost some
fine players--notably cellist Desmond Hoebig--
but it's still a great orchestra.
I've even seen some suggestions here lately
that HSO recordings of Brahms and Bruckner
are competitive.

There are many fine musicians in SF, LA, Houston, St. Louis, etc., but
my experience is that on a day in day out basis & man for man or woman
for woman, they often lack the consistency of say a Philly, NYP, or CSO.
At their best they can equal or surpass "Big Five" bands, but they seem
to do so only on tour or on recordings. I've heard quite a few SFSO
concerts & broadcasts over the years and while they've constantly been
improving, IMO they still aren't as consistent. Similarly, they seem to
lack the depth when associate or assistants are subing for principal
players and certainly the SFSO strings lack the sound of an orchestra
like the Philly O & MET O's in their home halls.

[Marc Perman]

Post by A. Brain
It's hard for me to believe that an orchestra in New Jersey,
right between NYC and Philadelphia, could be thriving,
and even recording (on Delos). Tough competition on
record here, but at least they are not recording
Beethoven or Brahms and thereby competing with
other American orchestras.

The NJ Symphony also plays in a much nicer, better-sounding hall
than that other orchestra across the Hudson. I'm about to move to
a town less than ten miles from the NJ Performing Arts Center, and
I look forward to going there frequently.

Marc Perman

[A. Brain]

Post by Marc Perman

Post by A. Brain
It's hard for me to believe that an orchestra in New Jersey,
right between NYC and Philadelphia, could be thriving,
and even recording (on Delos). Tough competition on
record here, but at least they are not recording
Beethoven or Brahms and thereby competing with
other American orchestras.

The NJ Symphony also plays in a much nicer, better-sounding hall
than that other orchestra across the Hudson. I'm about to move to
a town less than ten miles from the NJ Performing Arts Center, and
I look forward to going there frequently.

Ah yes, reminding one of recent remarks in the NYT about
how, despite the opening of the new hall at Carnegie, there
is a shortage of good halls in Manhattan. Both the NYCO and
the Met have unsatisfactory halls, in my experience. (At the
Met, I hear the best sound is way up in the "Family Circle",
where of course you can't see anything.)


From the reviews on Amazon, it appears that
the Dvorak Requiem by NJS is the one I must have read
a highly enthusiastic review of somewhere. This is
truly a neglected work, as shown by the apparent
failure of any of the major American orchestras to
perform/record it. ( I have to think that Szell at
least performed it in all those years at Cleveland).


But then there is a lot of neglected
Czech music and it does not help to see a NYT review
of the Dvorak 6, all but comparing it to say,
Carmina Burana.

Take a look:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/06/arts/music/06PHIL.html

[JRsnfld]

<< > > It's hard for me to believe that an orchestra in New Jersey,

Post by A. Brain
right between NYC and Philadelphia, could be thriving,
and even recording (on Delos). >>

I find it strange that the premise of this thread--that a very good orchestra
could exist in NJ and play something common like Dvorak very well--remains
unchallenged. The metropolitan area is huge and densely populated; NJ has its
share of that population and wealth, and convenience is on their side. Why trek
to NY or Philadelphia? If they want to support an orchestra of their own, I see
no reason why they couldn't quickly establish a superlative group. The pool of
musicians is certainly deep enough. Maybe they're not as "special" as the Czech
orchestras in this music, but who is?

If this were a second- or third-tier London or Prague orchestra, no one would
be questioning the possibility of a fine performance. One of Berlin's "other"
orchestras (under Suitner) has some of the best of all Dvorak recordings. Heck,
the Minneapolis-St. Paul metropolitan area has two orchestras that have
recorded Dvorak with success. Why not New Jersey?

--Jeff

[Raymond Hall]

"JRsnfld" <***@aol.com> wrote in message news:***@mb-m29.aol.com...
| << > > It's hard for me to believe that an orchestra in New Jersey,
| > > right between NYC and Philadelphia, could be thriving,
| > > and even recording (on Delos). >>
|
| I find it strange that the premise of this thread--that a very good
orchestra
| could exist in NJ and play something common like Dvorak very well--remains
| unchallenged. The metropolitan area is huge and densely populated; NJ has
its
| share of that population and wealth, and convenience is on their side. Why
trek
| to NY or Philadelphia? If they want to support an orchestra of their own,
I see
| no reason why they couldn't quickly establish a superlative group. The
pool of
| musicians is certainly deep enough. Maybe they're not as "special" as the
Czech
| orchestras in this music, but who is?
|
| If this were a second- or third-tier London or Prague orchestra, no one
would
| be questioning the possibility of a fine performance. One of Berlin's
"other"
| orchestras (under Suitner) has some of the best of all Dvorak recordings.
Heck,
| the Minneapolis-St. Paul metropolitan area has two orchestras that have
| recorded Dvorak with success. Why not New Jersey?

Well said. I had thought the very same, but obviously overlooked the fact
that someone else had picked up the obvious points that needed to be made.

Why not New Jersey indeed? We will welcome them here in Taree, on their
future world tour.
<g>

Regards,

# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)

Ray, Taree, NSW

[Mazzolata]

Post by Raymond Hall
Why not New Jersey indeed? We will welcome them here in Taree, on their
future world tour.
<g>
Regards,
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)
Ray, Taree, NSW

Taree is a place? I thought it was some curious Australian salutation.

[Raymond Hall]

"Mazzolata" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@hotmail.com...
| Raymond Hall wrote:
|
| > Why not New Jersey indeed? We will welcome them here in Taree, on their
| > future world tour.
| > <g>
| >
| > Regards,
| >
| > # http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
| > See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)
| >
| > Ray, Taree, NSW
| >
|
| Taree is a place? I thought it was some curious Australian salutation.

Yes. It is on the map. Planet Earth. Look it up. We do actually exist, and
are about 300km north of Sydney. Name derived from the aboriginal word for
"fruit of the wild fig tree".

Happy?
<g>

Regards,

# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)

Ray, Taree, NSW

[Van Eyes]

Yes. It [Taree]is on the map. Planet Earth. Look it up. We do actually exist, and
are about 300km north of Sydney. Name derived from the aboriginal word for
"fruit of the wild fig tree".
Happy?

Nor should we forget the Tasmanian SO.

Regards

[Raymond Hall]

"Van Eyes" <***@excite.com> wrote in message news:***@mygate.mailgate.org...
| "Raymond Hall" <***@bigpond.com> wrote in message
| news:bthqph$7eedu$***@ID-101911.news.uni-berlin.de
|
| > Yes. It [Taree]is on the map. Planet Earth. Look it up. We do actually
exist, and
| > are about 300km north of Sydney. Name derived from the aboriginal word
for
| > "fruit of the wild fig tree".
| >
| > Happy?
|
| Nor should we forget the Tasmanian SO.

Indeed not. And amongst other very good orchestras (such as the Melbourne
SO), for us, the Sydney SO is only 3.5 hours away by car, or 5.5 hours by
train.

The LAPO is 11 hours away by Jumbo too.
<g>

Regards,

# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)

Ray, Taree, NSW

[Alan Watkins]

Post by JRsnfld
If this were a second- or third-tier London or Prague orchestra, no one would
be questioning the possibility of a fine performance. One of Berlin's "other"
orchestras (under Suitner) has some of the best of all Dvorak recordings. Heck,
the Minneapolis-St. Paul metropolitan area has two orchestras that have
recorded Dvorak with success. Why not New Jersey?
--Jeff

Dvorak is NOT rocket science but you need to know where he is coming
from in folk roots and what rubato is. Despite his apparently
"stodgy" performances Mr Macal understands that and there is no reason
why any orchestra in the world cannot play Dvorak well provided the
conductor understands it or can guide the players.

Spare a thought then for Smetana who just hopefully wrote Lusingando
over some parts, including strings, triangle and timpani, and
expected players to understand it.

Czech orchestras do NOT have an exclusive right to this music. It is
there for all. Dvorak wrote great music, loved England, loved America
and composed great music for the former and IN the latter.

In the orchestrated version of the Slavonic Dances Op 46/72 he also
managed to include a cymbal part that requires a virtuso player (the
hardest part in the business) and a unique timpani part that is not
far behind it.

This wonderful music is open to all whether in New Jersey, Cincinatti,
Brno, Prague or wherever.

With a little understanding, Dvorak is open to all.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

[Richard Schultz]

In article <***@posting.google.com>, Alan Watkins <***@aol.com> wrote:

: Dvorak is NOT rocket science but you need to know where he is coming
: from in folk roots and what rubato is.

Amen to that. When I lived in Salt Lake City, the Utah Symphony would
occasionally attempt Dvorak. Unless they had an extremely good guest
conductor, it invariably came off sounding like third-rate Brahms, because
the players (mostly American White Bread types) had no intuitive
understanding of the music.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You go on playing Bach your way, and I'll go on playing him *his* way."
-- Wanda Landowska

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Richard Schultz
: Dvorak is NOT rocket science but you need to know where he is coming
: from in folk roots and what rubato is.
Amen to that. When I lived in Salt Lake City, the Utah Symphony would
occasionally attempt Dvorak. Unless they had an extremely good guest
conductor, it invariably came off sounding like third-rate Brahms,
because the players (mostly American White Bread types) had no intuitive
understanding of the music.

Even under a conductor from the Jewish community in Thessaloniki?

[Richard Schultz]

In article <***@207.217.77.204>, "Matthew?B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:

:> Amen to that. When I lived in Salt Lake City, the Utah Symphony would
:> occasionally attempt Dvorak. Unless they had an extremely good guest
:> conductor, it invariably came off sounding like third-rate Brahms,
:> because the players (mostly American White Bread types) had no intuitive
:> understanding of the music.
:
: Even under a conductor from the Jewish community in Thessaloniki?

I lived in SLC after Abravanel retired, so I can't answer that question.
I don't know that he ever denied being Jewish, but I do know that he
left the impression that he didn't want to be thought of as Jewish.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
It's a bird, it's a plane -- no, it's Mozart. . .

[Eric Nagamine]

Post by JRsnfld
<< > > It's hard for me to believe that an orchestra in New Jersey,

Post by A. Brain
right between NYC and Philadelphia, could be thriving,
and even recording (on Delos). >>

I find it strange that the premise of this thread--that a very good orchestra
could exist in NJ and play something common like Dvorak very well--remains
unchallenged. The metropolitan area is huge and densely populated; NJ has its
share of that population and wealth, and convenience is on their side. Why trek
to NY or Philadelphia? If they want to support an orchestra of their own, I see
no reason why they couldn't quickly establish a superlative group. The pool of
musicians is certainly deep enough. Maybe they're not as "special" as the Czech
orchestras in this music, but who is?
If this were a second- or third-tier London or Prague orchestra, no one would
be questioning the possibility of a fine performance. One of Berlin's "other"
orchestras (under Suitner) has some of the best of all Dvorak recordings. Heck,
the Minneapolis-St. Paul metropolitan area has two orchestras that have
recorded Dvorak with success. Why not New Jersey?
--Jeff

In part because NY & Philly are close. A friend of mine who subs with
the NJSO says that the regular musicians often opt out of any concert if
they have a better paying gig elsewhere. The personnel manager for the
NJSO really earns his pay trying to get last minute replacements on a
regular basis.

[Alan Watkins]

Post by Eric Nagamine

Post by JRsnfld
<< > > It's hard for me to believe that an orchestra in New Jersey,

Post by A. Brain
right between NYC and Philadelphia, could be thriving,
and even recording (on Delos). >>

I find it strange that the premise of this thread--that a very good orchestra
could exist in NJ and play something common like Dvorak very well--remains
unchallenged. The metropolitan area is huge and densely populated; NJ has its
share of that population and wealth, and convenience is on their side. Why trek
to NY or Philadelphia? If they want to support an orchestra of their own, I see
no reason why they couldn't quickly establish a superlative group. The pool of
musicians is certainly deep enough. Maybe they're not as "special" as the Czech
orchestras in this music, but who is?
If this were a second- or third-tier London or Prague orchestra, no one would
be questioning the possibility of a fine performance. One of Berlin's "other"
orchestras (under Suitner) has some of the best of all Dvorak recordings. Heck,
the Minneapolis-St. Paul metropolitan area has two orchestras that have
recorded Dvorak with success. Why not New Jersey?
--Jeff

In part because NY & Philly are close. A friend of mine who subs with
the NJSO says that the regular musicians often opt out of any concert if
they have a better paying gig elsewhere. The personnel manager for the
NJSO really earns his pay trying to get last minute replacements on a
regular basis.

I assume they are employed on a freelance basis per gig then? Many
contracts release a player if he or she is not needed for a particular
concert but most, I would think, give the orchestra to whom you are
contracted "first call" on your services.

I assume the system is different in America.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

[Brendan R. Wehrung]

Post by Eric Nagamine

Post by JRsnfld
<< > > It's hard for me to believe that an orchestra in New Jersey,

Post by A. Brain
right between NYC and Philadelphia, could be thriving,
and even recording (on Delos). >>

I find it strange that the premise of this thread--that a very good orchestra
could exist in NJ and play something common like Dvorak very well--remains
unchallenged. The metropolitan area is huge and densely populated; NJ has its
share of that population and wealth, and convenience is on their side. Why trek
to NY or Philadelphia? If they want to support an orchestra of their own, I see
no reason why they couldn't quickly establish a superlative group. The pool of
musicians is certainly deep enough. Maybe they're not as "special" as the Czech
orchestras in this music, but who is?
If this were a second- or third-tier London or Prague orchestra, no one would
be questioning the possibility of a fine performance. One of Berlin's "other"
orchestras (under Suitner) has some of the best of all Dvorak recordings. Heck,
the Minneapolis-St. Paul metropolitan area has two orchestras that have
recorded Dvorak with success. Why not New Jersey?
--Jeff

In part because NY & Philly are close. A friend of mine who subs with
the NJSO says that the regular musicians often opt out of any concert if
they have a better paying gig elsewhere. The personnel manager for the
NJSO really earns his pay trying to get last minute replacements on a
regular basis.
--

Who gets to play the truckload of Stradivarius violins donated to the
orchestra in cases like this?

Brendan
--

[Eric Nagamine]

Post by A. Brain

Post by Marc Perman

Post by A. Brain
It's hard for me to believe that an orchestra in New Jersey,
right between NYC and Philadelphia, could be thriving,
and even recording (on Delos). Tough competition on
record here, but at least they are not recording
Beethoven or Brahms and thereby competing with
other American orchestras.

The NJ Symphony also plays in a much nicer, better-sounding hall
than that other orchestra across the Hudson. I'm about to move to
a town less than ten miles from the NJ Performing Arts Center, and
I look forward to going there frequently.

Ah yes, reminding one of recent remarks in the NYT about
how, despite the opening of the new hall at Carnegie, there
is a shortage of good halls in Manhattan. Both the NYCO and
the Met have unsatisfactory halls, in my experience. (At the
Met, I hear the best sound is way up in the "Family Circle",
where of course you can't see anything.)

Try sitting up front at the MET with Levine or Kleiber in the pit. Equal
to anything I've heard at Covent Garden or the Vienna Staatsoper.

[Alan Watkins]

How sad that it does not seem to say anything about the music and even
less about Dvorak 6 which, in most parts of the world, is hardly a
repertoire piece. I do not think it would encourage me to go out and
buy it!

If that is what the critic thought, so be it. I do not want to be
unkind to the critic for I was not at the performance but this is a
wonderful symphony, right up there (in my opinion) with 7, 8 and 9.

It was commissioned by Richter and Dvorak (I think) threw himself into
this work. Sadly, of course Richter's orchestra did not want to do
it.

Dvorak, I think, thought he was on the edge of "making it" to a wider
audience at that time. I have played this score many times, always
with great reward.

Moving moments for me are where Dvorak uses a theme better known in Ma
Vlast. Is that coincidence, I wonder, or is it someone saying a thank
you to the man who gave him his first chance in an orchestra? (albeit
the humble viola in Smetana's little band).

I do not think it a coincidence and that might have been something
really interesting for the critic to discuss.

If you look at Dvorak's correspondence he thought this commission a
turning point in his life and was disappointed and put out when it
turned out not to be so. Dvorak was a sensitive soul and was very
hurt by the rejection of Richter's orchestra.

I have always believed that Dvorak "wrote in" Smetana in Symphony 6
quite deliberately. I believe that is the sort of person he was.
Then he goes off to do his own, personal and substantial thing but
(briefly) leaves it running in the bass before he does so.

Ancerl was a wonderful person to do Dvorak 6 with. He used to fly
like the wind in the Furiant (a real hang on in there job) and even in
separate string section rehearsals insisted upon the timpanist being
present as well. "This is a Bass symphony" he said and so, I think,
it is.

I think Dvorak Symphony 6 a masterpiece and I am sorry that the critic
seems to have missed what I think are some of the wonderful subtleties
of this work.
In truth, I suppose all of it is just a matter of opinion and my
opinion is not that of that particular critic.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins





Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

[A. Brain]

Post by Alan Watkins
How sad that it does not seem to say anything about the music and even
less about Dvorak 6 which, in most parts of the world, is hardly a
repertoire piece. I do not think it would encourage me to go out and
buy it!
If that is what the critic thought, so be it. I do not want to be
unkind to the critic for I was not at the performance but this is a
wonderful symphony, right up there (in my opinion) with 7, 8 and 9.

I presume you are discussing the NYT review that I posted,
which was more or less critical of the Dvorak 6 and the
Tchaikovsky violin concerto for being too "popular"
or tuneful or something.

As if the Dvorak 6 is played or recorded that often.
The Houston symphony played it a few years ago
and I bet it was the first time hearing for 90%
of the audience.

I agree that it's a fine work by this popular but consistently
underrated composer.

It's the kind of work--like the Dvorak choral works
recorded by the New Jersey Symphony--that "secondary
orchestras should record, when they get the chance to record,
rather than, say, the Brahms symphonies (though I hear that
Eschenbach's HSO recordings of those are pretty good).

[Marc Perman]

Post by Alan Watkins
Ancerl was a wonderful person to do Dvorak 6 with. He used to

fly

Post by Alan Watkins
like the wind in the Furiant (a real hang on in there job) and

even in

Post by Alan Watkins
separate string section rehearsals insisted upon the timpanist

being

Post by Alan Watkins
present as well. "This is a Bass symphony" he said and so, I

think,

Post by Alan Watkins
it is.
I think Dvorak Symphony 6 a masterpiece and I am sorry that the critic
seems to have missed what I think are some of the wonderful

subtleties

Post by Alan Watkins
of this work.
In truth, I suppose all of it is just a matter of opinion and my
opinion is not that of that particular critic.

I recently first heard for myself the acclaimed Ancerl recording
of the 6th, which truly lives up to its reputation.

Marc Perman

[Dan Koren]

Post by A. Brain
A recent NYT article about New Jersey Dvorak
recordings and performances reminded me of
a really enthusiastic review I read somewhere.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/04/arts/music/04HIGH.html
Apparently they have recorded the Requiem, the Stabat
Mater, and more. I can't recall which got the rave review.
I have the Kertesz and the Ancerl Requiems--both superb,
and just picked up the Smetacek Stabat.
It's hard for me to believe that an orchestra in New Jersey,
right between NYC and Philadelphia, could be thriving,
and even recording (on Delos). Tough competition on
record here, but at least they are not recording
Beethoven or Brahms and thereby competing with
other American orchestras.
I don't think the "Big Five" in the U.S. (commonly
thought to be Boston, NY, Philadelphia, Chicago,
and Cleveland) ever recorded any of the Dvorak
choral works. Shaw recorded the Dvorak Stabat
in Atlanta.

Where in the US do you find a choir that can sing
in Czech (or whatever slavonic dialect is used in
these works) ?!?



dk

[A. Brain]

Post by Dan Koren

Post by A. Brain
I don't think the "Big Five" in the U.S. (commonly
thought to be Boston, NY, Philadelphia, Chicago,
and Cleveland) ever recorded any of the Dvorak
choral works. Shaw recorded the Dvorak Stabat
in Atlanta.

Where in the US do you find a choir that can sing
in Czech (or whatever slavonic dialect is used in
these works) ?!?

Is this supposed to be a joke?

The Requiem and Stabat
Mater, as well as the Mass, are of
course set to the traditional Latin texts.

It's been a long time since I heard it,
but I believe Janacek's Glagolithic Mass
is in "some Slavonic dialect".

I am certain that Brahms' "Deutsches
Requiem" is in some Teutonic dialect.

Bernstein recorded the Janacek with
the NYPO.

Now that I think of it, how many American
orchestras have recorded the Brahms?
I can think of two right away--the NYPO
with Bruno Walter, and the CSO with Solti.

[ulvi]

Post by A. Brain
I am certain that Brahms' "Deutsches
Requiem" is in some Teutonic dialect.
Bernstein recorded the Janacek with
the NYPO.
Now that I think of it, how many American
orchestras have recorded the Brahms?
I can think of two right away--the NYPO
with Bruno Walter, and the CSO with Solti.

Levine (is there really a Solti recording?)

Ulvi

[Eric Nagamine]

Post by ulvi

Post by A. Brain
I am certain that Brahms' "Deutsches
Requiem" is in some Teutonic dialect.
Bernstein recorded the Janacek with
the NYPO.
Now that I think of it, how many American
orchestras have recorded the Brahms?
I can think of two right away--the NYPO
with Bruno Walter, and the CSO with Solti.

Levine (is there really a Solti recording?)
Ulvi

Yep, for London/Decca. A very forceful reading.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Eric Nagamine

Post by ulvi

I am certain that Brahms' "Deutsches Requiem" is in some Teutonic
dialect.
Bernstein recorded the Janacek with the NYPO.
Now that I think of it, how many American orchestras have recorded the
Brahms? I can think of two right away--the NYPO with Bruno Walter, and
the CSO with Solti.

Levine (is there really a Solti recording?)
Ulvi

Yep, for London/Decca. A very forceful reading.

That was his second recording of the Brahms German Requiem. His earlier
one was for Capitol in the 1950s, but with a European orchestra (I theenk).

[Raymond Hall]

"A. Brain" <***@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message news:62vLb.5664$***@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...
| "Dan Koren" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| news:3ffd26df$***@news.meer.net...
| > "A. Brain" <***@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
| > news:TmpKb.6754$***@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...
| > >
| > > I don't think the "Big Five" in the U.S. (commonly
| > > thought to be Boston, NY, Philadelphia, Chicago,
| > > and Cleveland) ever recorded any of the Dvorak
| > > choral works. Shaw recorded the Dvorak Stabat
| > > in Atlanta.
| > >
| >
| >
| > Where in the US do you find a choir that can sing
| > in Czech (or whatever slavonic dialect is used in
| > these works) ?!?
|
| Is this supposed to be a joke?
|
| The Requiem and Stabat
| Mater, as well as the Mass, are of
| course set to the traditional Latin texts.

It has been a long time since dk listened to a non-piano rekkid. Bruckner if
I recall.

He didn't have to worry about the words in the Bruckner symphony.
<g>

Regards,

# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)

Ray, Taree, NSW

[Mike Painter]

Post by A. Brain

Post by Dan Koren
Where in the US do you find a choir that can sing
in Czech (or whatever slavonic dialect is used in
these works) ?!?

Is this supposed to be a joke?
The Requiem and Stabat
Mater, as well as the Mass, are of
course set to the traditional Latin texts.
It's been a long time since I heard it,
but I believe Janacek's Glagolithic Mass
is in "some Slavonic dialect".
I am certain that Brahms' "Deutsches
Requiem" is in some Teutonic dialect.
Bernstein recorded the Janacek with
the NYPO.
Now that I think of it, how many American
orchestras have recorded the Brahms?
I can think of two right away--the NYPO
with Bruno Walter, and the CSO with Solti.

The SFS has recorded the Brahms Requiem under Blomstedt and won a Grammy
Award for it, too. They also have another recording of other Brahms choral
works: Alto Rhapsody, Schicksalslied, Gesang der Parzen, etc.

And the Chorus can sing in almost any language. Czech shouldn't be a problem.

Mike

[Matthew Vaughan]

Post by Mike Painter

Post by A. Brain
Now that I think of it, how many American
orchestras have recorded the Brahms?
I can think of two right away--the NYPO
with Bruno Walter, and the CSO with Solti.

The SFS has recorded the Brahms Requiem under Blomstedt and won a Grammy
Award for it, too. They also have another recording of other Brahms choral
works: Alto Rhapsody, Schicksalslied, Gesang der Parzen, etc.

I almost thought that question was a joke too. Of course the Atlanta
Symphony and Chorus recorded it with Robert Shaw (who also recorded it - in
English - with the Mormon Tabernacle and the Utah Symphony). The choral
singing in the Atlanta performance is very fine. Barenboim and Levine have
recorded it in Chicago, and Masur in New York.

Post by Mike Painter
And the Chorus can sing in almost any language. Czech shouldn't be a problem.

They've certainly tackled Russian, with all the Stravinsky MTT programs.

[A. Brain]

Post by Matthew Vaughan

Post by Mike Painter

Post by A. Brain
Now that I think of it, how many American
orchestras have recorded the Brahms?
I can think of two right away--the NYPO
with Bruno Walter, and the CSO with Solti.

The SFS has recorded the Brahms Requiem under Blomstedt and won a Grammy
Award for it, too. They also have another recording of other Brahms choral
works: Alto Rhapsody, Schicksalslied, Gesang der Parzen, etc.

I almost thought that question was a joke too. Of course the Atlanta
Symphony and Chorus recorded it with Robert Shaw (who also recorded it - in
English - with the Mormon Tabernacle and the Utah Symphony). The choral
singing in the Atlanta performance is very fine. Barenboim and Levine have
recorded it in Chicago, and Masur in New York.

Post by Mike Painter
And the Chorus can sing in almost any language. Czech shouldn't be a

problem.
They've certainly tackled Russian, with all the Stravinsky MTT

programs.


So now we're singing the Brahms in Czech, or "Slavonic dialects" too?

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by A. Brain

Post by Matthew Vaughan

Post by Mike Painter

Now that I think of it, how many American orchestras have recorded
the Brahms? I can think of two right away--the NYPO with Bruno
Walter, and the CSO with Solti.

The SFS has recorded the Brahms Requiem under Blomstedt and won a
Grammy Award for it, too. They also have another recording of other
Brahms choral works: Alto Rhapsody, Schicksalslied, Gesang der
Parzen, etc.

I almost thought that question was a joke too. Of course the Atlanta
Symphony and Chorus recorded it with Robert Shaw (who also recorded it
- in English - with the Mormon Tabernacle and the Utah Symphony). The
choral singing in the Atlanta performance is very fine. Barenboim and
Levine have recorded it in Chicago, and Masur in New York.

Post by Mike Painter
And the Chorus can sing in almost any language. Czech shouldn't be a problem.

They've certainly tackled Russian, with all the Stravinsky MTT programs.

So now we're singing the Brahms in Czech, or "Slavonic dialects" too?

The suggestion is that they ought to sing Dvorak's choral works, some of
which are to Czech texts.

[Alan Watkins]

Post by A. Brain

Post by Dan Koren

Post by A. Brain
I don't think the "Big Five" in the U.S. (commonly
thought to be Boston, NY, Philadelphia, Chicago,
and Cleveland) ever recorded any of the Dvorak
choral works. Shaw recorded the Dvorak Stabat
in Atlanta.

Where in the US do you find a choir that can sing
in Czech (or whatever slavonic dialect is used in
these works) ?!?

Is this supposed to be a joke?
The Requiem and Stabat
Mater, as well as the Mass, are of
course set to the traditional Latin texts.
It's been a long time since I heard it,
but I believe Janacek's Glagolithic Mass
is in "some Slavonic dialect".
I am certain that Brahms' "Deutsches
Requiem" is in some Teutonic dialect.
Bernstein recorded the Janacek with
the NYPO.
Now that I think of it, how many American
orchestras have recorded the Brahms?
I can think of two right away--the NYPO
with Bruno Walter, and the CSO with Solti.

There are two editions of the Glagolitic Mass that I know: one in
Latin/English, the other Slavonic/German.

The original text is VERY old and is taking from what is generally
considered to have been the first ever language of the region. I have
heard it called Old Slavonic or sometimes Cyrillica. It was supposed
to have been brought to the region by Saints.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins