Discussion:
"Top 10 Mahler symphony recordings" (recent article)
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j***@gmail.com
2016-08-30 09:01:15 UTC
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http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/top-10-mahler-symphony-recordings
Matthew Silverstein
2016-08-30 09:56:13 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/top-10-mahler-symphony-recordings
The love affair with Rattle is predictable yet still disappointing. Rattle/Berlin as the top choice for Mahler 2? Ugh.

Matty
O
2016-08-30 14:42:26 UTC
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Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by j***@gmail.com
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/top-10-mahler-symphony-recordings
The love affair with Rattle is predictable yet still disappointing.
Rattle/Berlin as the top choice for Mahler 2? Ugh.
Yeah, that Rattle! Who'd a thought he was so good?

-Owen, only Gramophone!
jrsnfld
2016-08-30 16:37:25 UTC
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Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by j***@gmail.com
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/top-10-mahler-symphony-recordings
The love affair with Rattle is predictable yet still disappointing. Rattle/Berlin as the top choice for Mahler 2? Ugh.
Matty
Just as noticeable is the lingering love affair with Barbirolli, whose recordings are not reviewed but nonetheless are natural touchstones for the reviewers comments about others.

Nonetheless, there are some useful comments dispersed in the reviews, and I particularly liked Edward Seckerson's comment about how Tennstedt can almost "convince me that impetus has nothing to do with speed." This is a good way of phrasing one of the points made about Tennstedt in the other Mahler thread currently in progress on rmcr.

--Jeff
Andrew Clarke
2016-09-01 03:06:29 UTC
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Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by j***@gmail.com
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/top-10-mahler-symphony-recordings
The love affair with Rattle is predictable yet still disappointing. Rattle/Berlin as the top choice for Mahler 2? Ugh.
Matty
There is, however, a startling discrepancy between the present #1 ranking for Rattle's "Resurrection" and what the Gramophone reviewer actually wrote at the time the recording came out - "damning with faint praise" seems to cover most of it.

This suggests to me that this particular list was put together hurriedly and without much attention to such obvious detail as whether the original reviewers actually liked the recording.

The Gramophone seems to have fallen victim to toptennitus - of which a symptom is ringing in the ears. I wonder if the mag is trying to stimulate sluggish circulation figures?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Matthew Silverstein
2016-09-01 09:21:39 UTC
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Post by Andrew Clarke
There is, however, a startling discrepancy between the present #1 ranking
for Rattle's "Resurrection" and what the Gramophone reviewer actually
wrote at the time the recording came out - "damning with faint praise"
seems to cover most of it.
Bizarre. I hadn't even bothered reading the original review. This recommendation is especially surprising since Rattle's first recording of M2 (with the CBSO) is so much better than the Berlin remake.

Matty
p***@hitmeonce.com
2016-08-30 12:20:26 UTC
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wodent choose any of them
no 1 horenstein
no2 walter
no3 horenstein
no4 horenstein
no5 walter
no6 horenstein
no 7 horenstein
no8 horenstein
no9 horenstein
no10 morris
O
2016-08-30 14:43:16 UTC
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Post by p***@hitmeonce.com
wodent choose any of them
no 1 horenstein
no2 walter
no3 horenstein
no4 horenstein
no5 walter
no6 horenstein
no 7 horenstein
no8 horenstein
no9 horenstein
no10 morris
Who slipped that morris in there with all the horensteins and walters?

-Owen
dk
2016-08-30 22:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hitmeonce.com
wodent choose any of them
no 1 horenstein
no2 walter
no3 horenstein
no4 horenstein
no5 walter
no6 horenstein
no 7 horenstein
no8 horenstein
no9 horenstein
no10 morris
I would vote for Klemperer in no2 and Barbirolli in no5.

dk
RiRiIII
2016-09-03 13:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by p***@hitmeonce.com
wodent choose any of them
no 1 horenstein
no2 walter
no3 horenstein
no4 horenstein
no5 walter
no6 horenstein
no 7 horenstein
no8 horenstein
no9 horenstein
no10 morris
I would vote for Klemperer in no2 and Barbirolli in no5.
dk
and Mitropoulos (NYPO or WDR SO) in no 6.

AlR
Herman
2016-08-30 12:43:50 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/top-10-mahler-symphony-recordings
What? Only three by Simon Rattle?
Mark Zimmer
2016-08-30 14:31:09 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/top-10-mahler-symphony-recordings
I'm OK with some of these. Kubelik on the 1st would be my choice as well; Abbado's 6th is certainly in the running. Rattle can have the 10th, if you count it.
Matthew Silverstein
2016-08-30 16:15:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Zimmer
I'm OK with some of these. Kubelik on the 1st would be my choice as well;
Abbado's 6th is certainly in the running. Rattle can have the 10th, if you count
it.
I agree about Kubelik in 1, and I'm fine with Rattle in 10 (although I don't really care about 10). Coming up with my own list today was excruciating, since I have so many favorites. Here's how it turned out::

1: Kubelik/BRSO (DG)
2: MTT/SFSO (Avie)
3: Bernstein/NYPO (DG)
4: Gatti/RPO (Conifer)
5: Abbado/BPO (DG)
6: Bernstein/VPO (DG)
7: Bernstein/NYPO (Sony)
8: Sinopoli/Philharmonia (DG)
9: Sanderling/BBC Phil (BBC)
Das Lied: Klemperer/Philharmonia (EMI)

The choices for 2, 4, 5, and 6 were especially difficult, and I easily could have gone another way for each of them.

Matty
Frank Berger
2016-08-30 17:36:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by Mark Zimmer
I'm OK with some of these. Kubelik on the 1st would be my choice as well;
Abbado's 6th is certainly in the running. Rattle can have the 10th, if you count
it.
1: Kubelik/BRSO (DG)
2: MTT/SFSO (Avie)
3: Bernstein/NYPO (DG)
4: Gatti/RPO (Conifer)
5: Abbado/BPO (DG)
6: Bernstein/VPO (DG)
7: Bernstein/NYPO (Sony)
8: Sinopoli/Philharmonia (DG)
9: Sanderling/BBC Phil (BBC)
Das Lied: Klemperer/Philharmonia (EMI)
The choices for 2, 4, 5, and 6 were especially difficult, and I easily could have gone another way for each of them.
Matty
I imprinted on Scherchen in #2 and no one else has sounded
quite right to me.

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s***@nycap.rr.com
2016-08-31 11:36:31 UTC
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Post by Matthew Silverstein
3: Bernstein/NYPO (DG)
I've never heard the D/G recording of #3 by LB. Do the folks around here find it preferable to his earlier Sony recording, which is one of my favorites?

MIFrost
Matthew Silverstein
2016-08-31 17:38:14 UTC
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Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
I've never heard the D/G recording of #3 by LB. Do the folks around here find it
preferable to his earlier Sony recording, which is one of my favorites?
The interpretation is largely unchanged, but the orchestral playing is much improved (and the recorded sound is marginally improved). I love both recordings.

Matty
Matthew Silverstein
2016-08-31 17:39:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
I've never heard the D/G recording of #3 by LB. Do the folks around here find it
preferable to his earlier Sony recording, which is one of my favorites?
I should have added that the differences between the two performances are much, much smaller than the differences between, say, the NYPO M2 on Sony and the later M2 on DG.

Matty
s***@nycap.rr.com
2016-08-31 17:59:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
I've never heard the D/G recording of #3 by LB. Do the folks around here find it
preferable to his earlier Sony recording, which is one of my favorites?
I should have added that the differences between the two performances are much, much smaller than the differences between, say, the NYPO M2 on Sony and the later M2 on DG.
Matty
Aha. Those two (M2's) are vastly different. I wondered if the M3's are equally different. Apparently not. LB got slower and more, um, extreme, as he got older. His M9 on D/G is supposed to be a good example of that. I haven't heard it though.

MIFrost
Gerard
2016-08-31 18:46:52 UTC
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wrote in message news:5211ff31-7c41-4e1a-813d-***@googlegroups.com...

On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 at 1:39:18 PM UTC-4, Matthew Silverstein
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
I've never heard the D/G recording of #3 by LB. Do the folks around here find it
preferable to his earlier Sony recording, which is one of my favorites?
I should have added that the differences between the two performances are
much, much smaller than the differences between, say, the NYPO M2 on Sony
and the later M2 on DG.
Matty
Aha. Those two (M2's) are vastly different. I wondered if the M3's are
equally different. Apparently not. LB got slower and more, um, extreme, as
he got older. His M9 on D/G is supposed to be a good example of that. I
haven't heard it though.

====================

AFAIK Bernstein has made 2 recordings of Mahler 9 for DG.
One of those (CGO ?) is an exception, being much slower, partially.
s***@nycap.rr.com
2016-08-31 19:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
Aha. Those two (M2's) are vastly different. I wondered if the M3's are
equally different. Apparently not. LB got slower and more, um, extreme, as
he got older. His M9 on D/G is supposed to be a good example of that. I
haven't heard it though.
====================
AFAIK Bernstein has made 2 recordings of Mahler 9 for DG.
One of those (CGO ?) is an exception, being much slower, partially.
I believe you're correct. I have his Sony and the one he did with the Berlin Philharmonic (on D/G). I meant the other D/G recording. With the Royal Concertgebouw.

MIFrost
Ed Presson
2016-09-01 01:10:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
Aha. Those two (M2's) are vastly different. I wondered if the M3's are
equally different. Apparently not. LB got slower and more, um, extreme, as
he got older. His M9 on D/G is supposed to be a good example of that. I
haven't heard it though.
====================
AFAIK Bernstein has made 2 recordings of Mahler 9 for DG.
One of those (CGO ?) is an exception, being much slower, partially.
I believe you're correct. I have his Sony and the one he did with the
Berlin Philharmonic (on D/G). I meant the other D/G recording. With the
Royal Concertgebouw.
MIFrost
Back to Mahler 3 for a moment, to provide a vote for the Sony Bernstein,
which I prefer to the DG recording. The Sony performance has a certain
excitement of new
discovery that the DG doesn't quite match.

All three Bernstein Mahler 9s are on my shelf. I have not heard them for a
while, but I remember preferring the Berlin performance to the other DG,
although
the sound is not as good. The Sony is also very special.

Ed Presson
jrsnfld
2016-09-01 04:02:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
wrote in message
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
I've never heard the D/G recording of #3 by LB. Do the folks around here find it
preferable to his earlier Sony recording, which is one of my favorites?
I should have added that the differences between the two performances are
much, much smaller than the differences between, say, the NYPO M2 on Sony
and the later M2 on DG.
Matty
Aha. Those two (M2's) are vastly different. I wondered if the M3's are
equally different. Apparently not. LB got slower and more, um, extreme, as
he got older. His M9 on D/G is supposed to be a good example of that. I
haven't heard it though.
====================
AFAIK Bernstein has made 2 recordings of Mahler 9 for DG.
One of those (CGO ?) is an exception, being much slower, partially.
Bernstein's Concertgebouw performance from about 1986 has a distended Finale of nearly 30 minutes, and a slow opening Andante comodo, but the inner movements include a very fast Rondo-Burleske--under 12 minutes. In other words, Bernstein's main sin as he got older was to draw out contrasts to extremes.

The BPO performance from 1979 is indeed overall shorter timing. I can't remember if the third movement is as fast (my copy lacks a booklet)...I doubt it. His Tanglewood BSO performance from 1979 is three minutes slower than the Berlin, with a fast but not obscenely fast Rondo-Burlesque and a very reasonably slow Adagio. I wonder if other performances show that there's considerable variation from week to week in his pacing.

His last movement in Amsterdam, as slow as it is, is not as slow as Levine. I like slow or fast Finales, rather than middling Finales. Maybe that's why the Amsterdam recording is my favorite Bernstein for now, though the Boston recording has a special place in my affection just because it's one of my favorite orchestras.

Solti's second recording is another relatively slow Finale with a relatively quick third movement preceding it.
Matthew Silverstein
2016-09-01 09:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
Aha. Those two (M2's) are vastly different. I wondered if the M3's are
equally different. Apparently not.
The DG recording of M3 is slower overall, but the differences are much smaller. Essentially, it's the same interpretation.

Matty
graham
2016-08-30 17:15:02 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/top-10-mahler-symphony-recordings
Let's face it, if recordings were available with Mahler conducting,
there would still be disagreements here as to which other conductor
reflected the true essence of these works.
Graham
Frank Berger
2016-08-30 17:41:02 UTC
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Post by graham
Post by j***@gmail.com
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/top-10-mahler-symphony-recordings
Let's face it, if recordings were available with Mahler
conducting, there would still be disagreements here as to
which other conductor reflected the true essence of these
works.
Graham
Whose to say Mahler would conduct his works the same way
every time?

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O
2016-08-30 17:53:19 UTC
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Post by Frank Berger
Post by graham
Post by j***@gmail.com
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/top-10-mahler-symphony-recordings
Let's face it, if recordings were available with Mahler
conducting, there would still be disagreements here as to
which other conductor reflected the true essence of these
works.
Graham
Whose to say Mahler would conduct his works the same way
every time?
If he dared do such a thing, we'd have no recourse but to bitterly
criticize him here.

-Owen
Frank Berger
2016-08-30 18:03:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by O
Post by Frank Berger
Post by graham
Post by j***@gmail.com
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/top-10-mahler-symphony-recordings
Let's face it, if recordings were available with Mahler
conducting, there would still be disagreements here as to
which other conductor reflected the true essence of these
works.
Graham
Whose to say Mahler would conduct his works the same way
every time?
If he dared do such a thing, we'd have no recourse but to bitterly
criticize him here.
-Owen
Argh. I should have said Who's not Whose. If someone else
did that I'd call him an ignoramus.

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Raymond Hall
2016-08-30 20:31:59 UTC
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Post by O
Post by Frank Berger
Post by graham
Post by j***@gmail.com
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/top-10-mahler-symphony-recordings
Let's face it, if recordings were available with Mahler
conducting, there would still be disagreements here as to
which other conductor reflected the true essence of these
works.
Graham
Whose to say Mahler would conduct his works the same way
every time?
If he dared do such a thing, we'd have no recourse but to bitterly
criticize him here.
-Owen
Apart from sketches which indicate a very autocratic style of conducting, Mahler was definitely not averse to touching up scores as he felt fit, and there are indications he believed in an 'on the night' type of fire to performance.

http://www.fugato.com/pickett/thesis.shtml

This link above gives some details of Dr. David Pickett's thesis about Mahler's 'retouchings' and examples include some Beethoven scores.

Ray Hall, Taree
Andy Evans
2016-08-30 22:40:26 UTC
Permalink
As you probably know I have only a smattering of knowledge about Mahler's symphonies so I can only say, for the moment, that I just bought the complete Gielen set on CD. Turns out best price is to get it from Japan. He consistently sounds as good or better than anyone else, and he's not on YouTube so it's a done deal. And anyway, I wanted CD quallity not MP3.

I'm finding it quite exciting coming to Mahler later in life, I must say. I was put off by the conductors I was hearing. I'm a Sauvignon Blanc person, not a Rioja, and that's how I like my Mahler. Gielen has totally changed my understanding of his music.
Bob Harper
2016-08-30 22:53:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
As you probably know I have only a smattering of knowledge about
Mahler's symphonies so I can only say, for the moment, that I just
bought the complete Gielen set on CD. Turns out best price is to get
it from Japan. He consistently sounds as good or better than anyone
else, and he's not on YouTube so it's a done deal. And anyway, I
wanted CD quallity not MP3.
I'm finding it quite exciting coming to Mahler later in life, I must
say. I was put off by the conductors I was hearing. I'm a Sauvignon
Blanc person,
France, Pacific NW, or New Zealand?

not a Rioja,

Sigh. You're missing a great deal.

and that's how I like my Mahler. Gielen
Post by Andy Evans
has totally changed my understanding of his music.
Well, at least we agree that Gielen is great :)

Bob Harper
Andy Evans
2016-08-31 09:36:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Andy Evans
I'm finding it quite exciting coming to Mahler later in life, I must
say. I was put off by the conductors I was hearing. I'm a Sauvignon
Blanc person,
France, Pacific NW, or New Zealand?
not a Rioja,
Sigh. You're missing a great deal.
I didn't when I was younger! My tastes have changed. I like the essence without the display these days.
Bob Harper
2016-08-31 15:53:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Andy Evans
I'm finding it quite exciting coming to Mahler later in life, I
must say. I was put off by the conductors I was hearing. I'm a
Sauvignon Blanc person,
France, Pacific NW, or New Zealand?
not a Rioja,
Sigh. You're missing a great deal.
I didn't when I was younger! My tastes have changed. I like the
essence without the display these days.
So what sort of SB do you like?

Bob Harper
Gerard
2016-08-31 16:17:46 UTC
Permalink
"Bob Harper" wrote in message news:E3Dxz.33904$***@fx26.iad...

So what sort of SB do you like?
==================

SB???
Sorbet? Soviet Bomber?
Herman
2016-08-31 16:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
So what sort of SB do you like?
==================
SB???
Sorbet? Soviet Bomber?
Sauvignon Blanc
Andy Evans
2016-08-31 17:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
So what sort of SB do you like?
Bob Harper
I'm no expert - I don't drink much - recommend some!
Bob Harper
2016-08-31 21:01:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Post by Bob Harper
So what sort of SB do you like?
Bob Harper
I'm no expert - I don't drink much - recommend some!
Well, to start near the top of NZ offerings, Cloudy Bay. Great stuff.

Bob Harper
g***@gmail.com
2016-08-31 08:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by graham
Post by j***@gmail.com
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/top-10-mahler-symphony-recordings
Let's face it, if recordings were available with Mahler conducting,
there would still be disagreements here as to which other conductor
reflected the true essence of these works.
Graham
Do you know about his piano rolls?:

http://www.classicalnotes.net/reviews/mahler.html
gggg gggg
2022-07-13 06:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/top-10-mahler-symphony-recordings
https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/article/top-10-gustav-mahler-symphony-recordings
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