Jewish Composers. Why so few?

Post by Ansermetniac
Anybody have any ideas. And rememeber-NO megillahs

I think it's mainly that most of the Jews lived in countries that
weren't as big in producing major composers. But I could be wrong...

-Joshua

--
AOL-IM: TerraEpon

Steve and Trish

2003-07-11 01:21:39 UTC

GERMANY? RUSSIA?

--
______________________________________
Steve Senderoff & Trish Vierling

"...Ya run your E string down oh, I don't know, about three frets...anyway,
it corresponds to the third note on the A string...here's ya tuning..."
.........Tommy Jarrell

http://steventrish.home.mindspring.com/webpage_files/start.html

Post by Joshua Kaufman

Post by Ansermetniac
Anybody have any ideas. And rememeber-NO megillahs

I think it's mainly that most of the Jews lived in countries that
weren't as big in producing major composers. But I could be wrong...
-Joshua
--
AOL-IM: TerraEpon

August Helmbright

2003-07-11 00:38:54 UTC

Post by Ansermetniac
I know that a Doctoral thesis could be written on this but I have
often wondered why this is so. Music was always important to the
Jewish people. Yet
Mendelsshon
Myerbeer
Offenbach
Dukas
are the only pre 1900 Composers I can think of
And Mendelsshon is the only major on the list(although the Dinorah
Overture in Toscanini's hands can make me think otherwise) and there
is a question of his religion but not his bloodline.
Were Jews, as up until recently, the members of the orchestras? In
the 60's Kubelik counducted the NY Phil and asked for more juice from
the orchestra. But in his accent it sounded like Jews. The
concertmaster(David Nadien?) said, but Maestro, we are all Jews.
Were Jews allowed in the conservatories in Europe of the 1700-1800s?
Was it because Jews were more concerned with Folk Music(hasidic) which
eventually evolved into tin pan alley etc.
Anybody have any ideas. And rememeber-NO megillahs

Don't forget Halevy. I'm probably forgetting several others, but he came
to mind immediately.

Just a hunch, but I wonder if the fact that Reform Judaism and the
assimilation movement are *relatively* recent phenomenons has something
to do with it. For quite a long period in "modern" western history, a
good many Jews tended to keep more to themselves socially and culturally
than became the norm in the 19th century forward - partly due to
religious prejudice against them and partly due to their own desires.

------------
August Helmbright

David Hurwitz

2003-07-11 00:49:23 UTC

I don't think a doctoral thesis could be written on the subject--there's little
mystery here: Jews in Europe were victims of extreme prejudice in Europe up
until and including WWII (and beyond is much of Eastern Europe). Naturally this
would affect such things as patronage, holding offices (remember Mahler had to
convert to get the job in Vienna) and the ability to make a living as a
composer. France was a notable exception musically speaking, but even so, you've
left out a few significant names, some quite major and even more so in their own
lifetimes:

Halevy
Alkan
Anton Rubinstein
Solomon Rossi
Mahler
Karl Goldmark
Joseph Joachim
The Strauss Family (that is, the Johanns, not the Richards)

In article <IsnPa.11461$***@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>, "Ansermetniac"
says...

Post by Ansermetniac
I know that a Doctoral thesis could be written on this but I have often
wondered why this is so. Music was always important to the Jewish people.
Yet
Mendelsshon
Myerbeer
Offenbach
Dukas
are the only pre 1900 Composers I can think of
And Mendelsshon is the only major on the list(although the Dinorah Overture
in Toscanini's hands can make me think otherwise) and there is a question of
his religion but not his bloodline.
Were Jews, as up until recently, the members of the orchestras? In the 60's
Kubelik counducted the NY Phil and asked for more juice from the orchestra.
But in his accent it sounded like Jews. The concertmaster(David Nadien?)
said, but Maestro, we are all Jews.
Were Jews allowed in the conservatories in Europe of the 1700-1800s? Was
it because Jews were more concerned with Folk Music(hasidic) which
eventually evolved into tin pan alley etc.
Anybody have any ideas. And rememeber-NO megillahs
Abbedd

Larry Rinkel

2003-07-11 01:26:35 UTC

Post by David Hurwitz
I don't think a doctoral thesis could be written on the subject--there's little
mystery here: Jews in Europe were victims of extreme prejudice in Europe up
until and including WWII (and beyond is much of Eastern Europe). Naturally this
would affect such things as patronage, holding offices (remember Mahler had to
convert to get the job in Vienna) and the ability to make a living as a
composer. France was a notable exception musically speaking, but even so, you've
left out a few significant names, some quite major and even more so in their own
Halevy
Alkan
Anton Rubinstein
Solomon Rossi
Mahler
Karl Goldmark
Joseph Joachim
The Strauss Family (that is, the Johanns, not the Richards)

"Ansermetniac"

Post by David Hurwitz
says...

Schoenberg by a hair, if you are willing to consider his early work "pre
1900" (1874-1951).

August Helmbright

2003-07-11 14:24:54 UTC

Post by August Helmbright
Halevy
Alkan
Anton Rubinstein
Solomon Rossi
Mahler
Karl Goldmark
Joseph Joachim
The Strauss Family (that is, the Johanns, not the Richards)

Well, I said I had probably forgotten several. I named Halevy but
can't believe I forgot Rubinstein, Goldmark and Joachim - pretty
obvious choices, even if Rubinstein and Joachim are not really played
much anymore. Goldmark is a *continuing* one-hit wonder (I like his
Rustic Wedding Symphony very much), while Halevy is more *remembered*
as having been a one-hit wonder. How many people living today have
actually even heard La Juife in somthing approaching its entirety, to
say nothing of having seen it? (Outside this group and r.m.o., how
many people have even heard *of* it?)

I intentionally left Mahler off my list since his fame did not spread
until the very last decade of the 19th century. Alkan and Rossi are
names only with no musical association for me, and I was unaware of
any Jewish heritage in the Austrian Strauss family. Is that well
documented?

Bill Pittman

2003-07-11 23:06:27 UTC

Post by August Helmbright
Halevy is more *remembered*
as having been a one-hit wonder. How many people living today have
actually even heard La Juife in somthing approaching its entirety, to
say nothing of having seen it? (Outside this group and r.m.o., how
many people have even heard *of* it?)

It's "La Juive", and the Met is doing it next season.

Steve and Trish

2003-07-11 01:20:30 UTC

Post by Ansermetniac
are the only pre 1900 Composers I can think of

uhhh, mahler?

i am reminded of a lecture given by cage at northwestern in the mid 70s...he
was asked about future directions in american music.

his reply:
i don't like your question. there is only music and silence

--
______________________________________
Steve Senderoff & Trish Vierling

"...Ya run your E string down oh, I don't know, about three frets...anyway,
it corresponds to the third note on the A string...here's ya tuning..."
.........Tommy Jarrell

http://steventrish.home.mindspring.com/webpage_files/start.html

Post by Ansermetniac
I know that a Doctoral thesis could be written on this but I have often
wondered why this is so. Music was always important to the Jewish people.
Yet
Mendelsshon
Myerbeer
Offenbach
Dukas
And Mendelsshon is the only major on the list(although the Dinorah Overture
in Toscanini's hands can make me think otherwise) and there is a question of
his religion but not his bloodline.
Were Jews, as up until recently, the members of the orchestras? In the 60's
Kubelik counducted the NY Phil and asked for more juice from the orchestra.
But in his accent it sounded like Jews. The concertmaster(David Nadien?)
said, but Maestro, we are all Jews.
Were Jews allowed in the conservatories in Europe of the 1700-1800s? Was
it because Jews were more concerned with Folk Music(hasidic) which
eventually evolved into tin pan alley etc.
Anybody have any ideas. And rememeber-NO megillahs
Abbedd

Ansermetniac

2003-07-11 01:51:55 UTC

I always considered Mahler to be of the 20th century but I guess I am wrong.
When was the first Symphony premiered?

Abbedd

Post by Steve and Trish

Post by Ansermetniac
are the only pre 1900 Composers I can think of

uhhh, mahler?
i am reminded of a lecture given by cage at northwestern in the mid 70s...he
was asked about future directions in american music.
i don't like your question. there is only music and silence
--
______________________________________
Steve Senderoff & Trish Vierling
"...Ya run your E string down oh, I don't know, about three

frets...anyway,

Post by Steve and Trish
it corresponds to the third note on the A string...here's ya tuning..."
.........Tommy Jarrell
http://steventrish.home.mindspring.com/webpage_files/start.html

Overture

Post by Ansermetniac
in Toscanini's hands can make me think otherwise) and there is a

question

Post by Steve and Trish
of

Post by Ansermetniac
his religion but not his bloodline.
Were Jews, as up until recently, the members of the orchestras? In the

60's

Post by Ansermetniac
Kubelik counducted the NY Phil and asked for more juice from the

orchestra.

Post by Ansermetniac
But in his accent it sounded like Jews. The concertmaster(David Nadien?)
said, but Maestro, we are all Jews.
Were Jews allowed in the conservatories in Europe of the 1700-1800s?

Was

Post by Steve and Trish

Post by Ansermetniac
it because Jews were more concerned with Folk Music(hasidic) which
eventually evolved into tin pan alley etc.
Anybody have any ideas. And rememeber-NO megillahs
Abbedd

David Hurwitz

2003-07-11 02:10:06 UTC

In article <%KoPa.11892$***@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>, "Ansermetniac"
says...

Post by Ansermetniac
I always considered Mahler to be of the 20th century but I guess I am wrong.
When was the first Symphony premiered?

The first three symphonies all predate 1900--the Fourth is right at the turn of
the century.

Dave Hurwitz

MarkZimmerman

2003-07-11 12:35:50 UTC

Post by David Hurwitz
The first three symphonies all predate 1900--the Fourth is right at the turn of
the century.
Dave Hurwitz

But, even though Mahler converted would we still consider him Jewish?
Throughout the centuries many Jews converted or risked death, prejudice and
whatnot.

Best,

Mark Allen Zimmerman * Chicago

David7Gable

2003-07-11 05:56:49 UTC

Post by Ansermetniac
I always considered Mahler to be of the 20th century

Is it an either/or question?

-david gable

Sam

2003-07-11 02:24:44 UTC

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:24:08 GMT, "Ansermetniac"

Where did you get the idea that Dukas was Jewish? You could ask the
same question about any other artistic or scientific activity before
1900. Jewish assimilation into mainstream European culture only began
seriously with Napoleon granting civil rights to Jews. It took
several generations for Jews to gain great prominence in so many
fields of endeavor.

Ansermetniac

2003-07-11 03:20:09 UTC

From jewhoo.com

a.. Paul Dukas - (1865-1935) French composer most famous for his orchestral
tone poem, "L'apprenti sorcier" ("The Sorcerer's Apprentice") which was
featured in Disney's "Fantasia". Paul Dukas was born in Paris. He was a
student at the Paris Conservatory where he studied piano, harmony, and
composition. He won the Prix de Rome for a counterpoint and fugue in 1886
and again in 1888 with the cantata, 'Velleda'. He was the music critic for
the Revue Hebdomadaire and Gazette des Beaux-Arts and at the same time, he
was a professor of orchestration at the Conservatoire. His strong critical
sense led him to destroy a number of his compositions and he allowed only a
relatively small number of works to be published and performed. Dukas was a
friend of Debussy and an important teacher. Darius Milhaud, below, was among
his pupils. Leon Botstein, the music scholar and conductor, describes Dukas
as being of 'partially Jewish ancestry'. (Although other 'lesser' sources
merely describe Dukas as Jewish). When we find a full scale biography, we
will qualify what "partial" means. The Botstein piece is on the following
link. Botstein goes through Dukas' leading works, including his only opera
and explains why Dukas has remained obscure--despite the fact that Dukas'
only opera was admired by figures as various as Richard Strauss, Richard
Wagner, Eric Wolfgang Korngold, and Arnold Schoenberg. (Revised July 2002)
Botstein Review

Abbedd

Post by Sam
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:24:08 GMT, "Ansermetniac"

Larry Rinkel

2003-07-11 03:23:18 UTC

Post by Sam
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:24:08 GMT, "Ansermetniac"
Where did you get the idea that Dukas was Jewish?

I never heard of the Strauss family (the Johanns, not Richard) being Jewish
either.

May I recommend the chapter "Jews - Not Least in Music" from Bryan Magee's
"Aspects of Wagner" as interesting reading on this subject. Magee does not
minimize or deny Wagner's anti-semitism, but he analyzes the essay on
Judaism in Music in a more favorable light than its notorious reputation
might seem to warrant: "The Jewish renaissance has happened almost entirely
since [Wagner's] day, and he did not foresee it, but he did regard the fact
that there had been no great Jewish composers up to his time as something
requiring explanation. The explanation he offered was almost unbelievably
original, and largely correct."

David Hurwitz

2003-07-11 03:48:55 UTC

Post by Larry Rinkel

Post by Sam
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 00:24:08 GMT, "Ansermetniac"
Where did you get the idea that Dukas was Jewish?

I never heard of the Strauss family (the Johanns, not Richard) being Jewish
either.

Try Grove, again.

Dave

Phil Lederer

2003-07-11 14:36:37 UTC

Johann Strauss Sr. was half Jewish, a fact that was hidden during the
war, lest his son, the "waltz king" be considered a forbidden
composer.

Richard Strauss was a gentile.

Regarding the general question of the relatively few Jewish composers
in the 1800s: During the nineteenth century, Jews did not have full
civil rights in any European country outside of France. This severly
limited opportunities for education and advancement.

What these restrictions depended on where you lived, and varied from
provence to provence even within the same Empire. A few examples from
my own research: In Bohemia before 1848 only one Jewish male from each
family could even be (legally) married. Before 1867 where Jews and
many others could live was restricted and one had to have premission
to live where you did. In particular Jews were not allowed to move. (
If you were not legally married you could be thrown out of town.)
What this means is before 1867 many towns and cities were closed to
Jews in Bohemia. Quite explicitly, Jews could not move to Vienna
from nay where in the Empire befvore 1867. The explosion of Jewish
population there after 1867 is a testiment to this new freedom. In
fact, Jews escaping restrictions in Bohemia and Moravia moved to
Hungary, and was the source of the large Hungarian Jewish population.

On the other hand, Josef II who ruled in Austria in the 1780's granted
Jews the right to practice any profession, and to gain a secular
education. But in practice, in Bohemia at least, Jews were stuck to
live in the small towns they lived in.

steve wolk

2003-07-11 05:45:45 UTC

Post by Sam
Where did you get the idea that Dukas was Jewish?

Most sources I have seen, including the New Grove, accept that Dukas was

Jewish,

Ignatz Moschelles
Adolphe Adam
Moritz Moszkowski
Emile Waldteufel
Dave Hurwitz

And Jacques Offenbach.

Raymond Hall

2003-07-11 10:18:35 UTC

Larry Rinkel

2003-07-11 21:02:04 UTC

Post by Raymond Hall
And Ligeti.

Certainly, but the question was about Jewish composers prior to 1900. The
list in the just-completed century is immense, and the Magee essay I alluded
to makes the point that there was a veritable explosion of Jewish talent
after 1900, both in composition and performance, and this was obviously not
limited to the arts.

(For example: someone just posted a thread asking whether Skalkottas was
Jewish, having seen a reference thereto, and no one who replied knew for
sure. Neither do I. But he fled Berlin in 1931, and was temporarily
imprisoned during the German occupation of Greece in 1933, - all this if I
remember my liner notes to the Greek Dances correctly.)

Dan Koren

2003-07-11 22:46:44 UTC

Post by Larry Rinkel

Post by Raymond Hall
And Ligeti.

Certainly, but the question was about
Jewish composers prior to 1900.

If one went back to, say 100 BC, most
composers up to that date had probably
been Jewish.

It all depends on one's purr-spective.

dk

BJMET1

2003-07-14 17:57:30 UTC

Post by Sam
Jewish assimilation into mainstream European culture only began
seriously with Napoleon granting civil rights to Jews.

It's a fascinating and of course, ultimately tragic subject. It appears that
Napoleon wanted to eliminate Judaism by assimilating the Jews (and thus make
the Jewish religion irrelevant by destroying "pure Jewishness"), whereas Hitler
wanted to completely eliminate all trace of Jewishness in European society,
both religiously and racially. But both Napoleon and Hitler appear to have
sought Jewish destruction, although in radically different ways.

Lewis Perin

2003-07-11 14:51:56 UTC

Sylvius Leopold Weiss, an esteemed contemporary of J. S. Bach.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / ***@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Paul Holbach

2003-07-11 22:42:25 UTC

There are more jewish composers:

* Charles Alkan
* George Antheil
* Milton Babbitt
* Leonard Bernstein
* Marc Blitzstein
* Ernest Bloch
* Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco
* Aaron Copland
* Richard Danielpour
* David Diamond
* Paul Dukas
* Hanns Eisler
* Rudolf Friml
* George Gershwin
* Philip Glass
* Reinhold Gliére
* Louis Moreau Gottschalk
* Morton Gould
* Emmerich Kalman
* Aaron Jay Kernis
* Leon Kirchner
* Erich Korngold
* Fritz Kreisler
* György Ligeti
* Gustav Mahler
* Felix Mendelssohn
* Giacomo Meyerbeer
* Darius Milhaud
* Jacques Offenbach
* Shulamit Ran
* Steve Reich
* George Rochberg
* Alfred Schnittke
* Arnold Schoenberg
* Erwin Schulhoff
* William Schuman
* Robert Starer
* Johann Strauss, Sr.
* Oscar Straus
* Ernest Toch
* Emil Waldteufel
* Kurt Weill
* Stefan Wolpe

Regards
PH

Owen Hartnett

2003-07-12 02:04:08 UTC

* Johann Strauss, Sr.

...but not Jr.?

-Owen

Jeffrey Smith

2003-07-12 22:44:42 UTC

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 21:16:53 GMT, Joshua Kaufman

Post by OwenÂ Hartnett

* Johann Strauss, Sr.

...but not Jr.?

(First of all, I should say that I´ve borrowed the list from
http://www.jinfo.org/Composers.html and added some composers myself.)
Strauss Sr. had a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother.

Many Jews would say that makes him not Jewish at all...
-Joshua

Not only many Jews, but also Halacha (the Jewish law), as I'm sure you
know.

It's rather like pregnancy, you are either Jewish or you're not. You
can't be half, quarter or even one eighth Jewish. And because you take
your mother's religion, Johann Strauss Sr. was not Jewish.

Jeffrey Smith.

To reply by email, remove the four XXXX characters.

Thomas Wood

2003-07-14 04:13:55 UTC

Post by Jeffrey Smith
On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 21:16:53 GMT, Joshua Kaufman

Many Jews would say that makes him not Jewish at all...
-Joshua

Not only many Jews, but also Halacha (the Jewish law), as I'm sure you
know.
It's rather like pregnancy, you are either Jewish or you're not. You
can't be half, quarter or even one eighth Jewish. And because you take
your mother's religion, Johann Strauss Sr. was not Jewish.

By that criterion, Gottschalk was also not Jewish.

Tom Wood

ajb723

2003-07-13 04:04:31 UTC

Post by ajb723

Post by Paul Holbach
* Fritz Kreisler

Are you certain about Fritz Kreisler?

"Amy Biancolli's recent biography Fritz Kreisler: Love's Sorrow,
Love's Joy (Amadeus Press, Portland Oregon, 1998) contains an
extensive discussion of Kreisler's Jewish background, which he never
"Kreisler the Catholic, Kreisler the Jew"). Biancolli cites a 1992
interview by David Sackson of Franz Rupp, Fritz Kreisler's piano
accompanist in the 1930s. Rupp states that he once asked Kreisler's
brother, the cellist Hugo Kreisler, about their Jewish background, to
which Hugo responded simply, "I'm a Jew, but my brother, I don't
know." According to Biancolli, Kreisler's father, Salomon Severin
Kreisler (also called Samuel Severin Kreisler), a physician and
amateur violinist from Krakow, was almost certainly Jewish. Fritz's
mother, Anna, was a Roman Catholic, and probably an "Aryan."
According to Louis Lochner's 1950 biography Fritz Kreisler, Kreisler
was reared as a Roman Catholic. However, according to unpublished
parts of the manuscript uncovered by Biancolli in the Library of
Congress, he was baptized only at the age of twelve. The bottom line
seems to be that Kreisler was at least half-Jewish and his reticence
on the subject primarily an attempt to placate his highly anti-Semitic
wife Harriet. ("Fritz hasn't a drop of Jewish blood in his veins!" she
is said to have vehemently responded to an inquiry from Leopold
Godowsky. Godowsky retorted: "He must be very anemic.")"
[ Source: http://www.jinfo.org/Violinists.html ]
Regards
PH

Thanks for the info- an interesting story

--
Alan

Scott Kurtz

2003-07-12 05:12:16 UTC

Add in Moses Pergament, the Scandinavian composer noted for choral music.

* Charles Alkan
* George Antheil
* Milton Babbitt
* Leonard Bernstein
* Marc Blitzstein
* Ernest Bloch
* Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco
* Aaron Copland
* Richard Danielpour
* David Diamond
* Paul Dukas
* Hanns Eisler
* Rudolf Friml
* George Gershwin
* Philip Glass
* Reinhold Gliére
* Louis Moreau Gottschalk
* Morton Gould
* Emmerich Kalman
* Aaron Jay Kernis
* Leon Kirchner
* Erich Korngold
* Fritz Kreisler
* György Ligeti
* Gustav Mahler
* Felix Mendelssohn
* Giacomo Meyerbeer
* Darius Milhaud
* Jacques Offenbach
* Shulamit Ran
* Steve Reich
* George Rochberg
* Alfred Schnittke
* Arnold Schoenberg
* Erwin Schulhoff
* William Schuman
* Robert Starer
* Johann Strauss, Sr.
* Oscar Straus
* Ernest Toch
* Emil Waldteufel
* Kurt Weill
* Stefan Wolpe
Regards
PH

Bill Pittman

2003-07-12 13:21:07 UTC

In article

Post by Scott Kurtz
Add in Moses Pergament, the Scandinavian composer noted for choral music.

Also Salamone Rossi, if you want to go back considerably further.

taodave

2003-07-12 13:22:42 UTC

In article

Post by Scott Kurtz
Add in Moses Pergament, the Scandinavian composer noted for choral music.

Post by Ansermetniac
I know that a Doctoral thesis could be written on this but I have often
wondered why this is so. Music was always important to the Jewish

people.

Post by Ansermetniac
Yet
Mendelsshon
Myerbeer
Offenbach
Dukas

Add Saint-Saens (or so I've been told)!

David Lobdell
Simple Country Pathologist

ajb723

2003-07-12 13:57:17 UTC

Are you certain about Fritz Kreisler?

--
Alan

Paul Holbach

2003-07-12 18:15:05 UTC

Post by ajb723

Post by Paul Holbach
* Fritz Kreisler

Are you certain about Fritz Kreisler?

"Amy Biancolli's recent biography Fritz Kreisler: Love's Sorrow,
Love's Joy (Amadeus Press, Portland Oregon, 1998) contains an
extensive discussion of Kreisler's Jewish background, which he never
acknowledged and which his wife adamantly denied (see Chapter 8:
"Kreisler the Catholic, Kreisler the Jew"). Biancolli cites a 1992
interview by David Sackson of Franz Rupp, Fritz Kreisler's piano
accompanist in the 1930s. Rupp states that he once asked Kreisler's
brother, the cellist Hugo Kreisler, about their Jewish background, to
which Hugo responded simply, "I'm a Jew, but my brother, I don't
know." According to Biancolli, Kreisler's father, Salomon Severin
Kreisler (also called Samuel Severin Kreisler), a physician and
amateur violinist from Krakow, was almost certainly Jewish. Fritz's
mother, Anna, was a Roman Catholic, and probably an "Aryan."
According to Louis Lochner's 1950 biography Fritz Kreisler, Kreisler
was reared as a Roman Catholic. However, according to unpublished
parts of the manuscript uncovered by Biancolli in the Library of
Congress, he was baptized only at the age of twelve. The bottom line
seems to be that Kreisler was at least half-Jewish and his reticence
on the subject primarily an attempt to placate his highly anti-Semitic
wife Harriet. ("Fritz hasn't a drop of Jewish blood in his veins!" she
is said to have vehemently responded to an inquiry from Leopold
Godowsky. Godowsky retorted: "He must be very anemic.")"

[ Source: http://www.jinfo.org/Violinists.html ]

Regards
PH

Wayne Reimer

2003-07-13 07:27:16 UTC

<...>

Post by Paul Holbach
("Fritz hasn't a drop of Jewish blood in his veins!" she
is said to have vehemently responded to an inquiry from Leopold
Godowsky. Godowsky retorted: "He must be very anemic.")"

Wonderful Godowsky quote. I'd heard elsewhere that he was verbally acute, but
haven't seen many samples. Anyone know any others (besides the famous "It's
hot in here" "Not for pianists", which has been attributed to him and to
others)?

wr

Paul Holbach

2003-07-11 22:45:40 UTC

Post by Ansermetniac
Mendelsshon
Myerbeer
Offenbach
Dukas

I think I forgot Morton Feldman!

PH

Paul Holbach

2003-07-11 22:54:49 UTC

Post by Ansermetniac
Mendelsshon
Myerbeer
Offenbach
Dukas

Before 19xx:

Adolphe Adam (1803-56)

PH

Serge

2003-07-13 14:36:02 UTC

Fanny Mendelssohn-Hensel

Georges Bizet

Ferdinand Hiller

Stephen Heller

Maximilian Steinberg (a pupil and son-in-law of Rimsky and the teacher
of Shostakovich)

Mikhail Gnessin (an important Russian composer from the first half of
the 20th century, also a pupil of Rimsky)

Julia Weisberg (a pupil and daughter-in-law of Rimsky)

Lowell Liebermann

Moisei Weinberg (Vainberg)

Alfred Schnittke

Sergey Wolfensohn (an important Russian composer and the teacher of
many St. Petersburg composers from the second half of the 20th
century)

Possibly many, many more!

Sergey Schepkin

DelMarva LaPoule

2003-07-14 10:41:10 UTC

Post by Serge
Fanny Mendelssohn-Hensel
Georges Bizet

Bizet was not Jewish, although I have seen quite a few liner notes to
the contrary. There is a record of his baptism.

But what a wonderful composer!

Robert Briggs

2003-07-14 17:47:50 UTC

Post by DelMarva LaPoule

Post by Serge
Georges Bizet

Bizet was not Jewish, although I have seen quite a few liner
notes to the contrary. There is a record of his baptism.

Huh?

Evidence of baptism does not constitute proof of Gentile status.

That said, I don't know whether or not Bizet was Jewish.

Richard Schultz

2003-07-15 03:59:31 UTC

In article <***@drn.newsguy.com>, David Hurwitz <***@newsguy.com> wrote:

:>> Evidence of baptism does not constitute proof of Gentile status.
:
: It does if you're baptised as a small child (Bizet was about 18 months old)
: and living in 19th century Paris. We're not talking about the Spain of the
: inquisition, here.

It depends on how one defines "Gentile status." According to Judaism, one
is Jewish if one's mother is Jewish, period (although, IIRC, the Conservative
movement now requires a reconversion ceremony for people who voluntarily
convert to another religion).

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."

Frank Berger

2003-07-15 20:57:50 UTC

Post by Richard Schultz
:>> Evidence of baptism does not constitute proof of Gentile status.
: It does if you're baptised as a small child (Bizet was about 18 months old)
: and living in 19th century Paris. We're not talking about the Spain of the
: inquisition, here.
It depends on how one defines "Gentile status." According to Judaism, one
is Jewish if one's mother is Jewish, period (although, IIRC, the Conservative
movement now requires a reconversion ceremony for people who voluntarily
convert to another religion).
-----
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."

Can we all agree, once and for all, that you simply can not discuss the
question of "who is a Jew" without the qualification "according to...."
Orthodox Judaism has one definition, Reform another. I'm also not sure
about Conservatism. Hitler had a different one, etc. etc.

Richard Schultz

2003-07-16 04:09:03 UTC

In article <4x0Ra.33048$***@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>, Ansermetniac <***@optonline.net> wrote:

: the Orthodox have a name for Conservatives and Reform Jews. They call them
: Goyim

No they don't. That joke might have been funny in 1971 when MAD magazine
printed it, but it isn't any more.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"

Eric Grunin

2003-07-16 05:25:20 UTC

Post by Richard Schultz
: the Orthodox have a name for Conservatives and Reform Jews. They call them
: Goyim
No they don't. That joke might have been funny in 1971 when MAD magazine
printed it, but it isn't any more.

Maybe not in Israel, but In New York -- where there are no legal
ramifications to one's religious identity -- it's still funny.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

Peter Greenstein

2003-07-16 05:44:05 UTC

Post by Eric Grunin

Maybe not in Israel, but In New York -- where there are no legal
ramifications to one's religious identity -- it's still funny.
Regards,
Eric Grunin

It's funny even in California.

pg

Jeffrey Smith

2003-07-16 22:51:10 UTC

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:44:05 GMT, "Peter Greenstein"

Post by Peter Greenstein

Post by Eric Grunin

Post by Richard Schultz
: the Orthodox have a name for Conservatives and Reform Jews. They call

them

Post by Eric Grunin

Post by Richard Schultz
: Goyim
No they don't. That joke might have been funny in 1971 when MAD magazine
printed it, but it isn't any more.

Maybe not in Israel, but In New York -- where there are no legal
ramifications to one's religious identity -- it's still funny.
Regards,
Eric Grunin

It's funny even in California.
pg

It's very funny in Edgware.

Jeffrey Smith.

To reply by email, remove the four XXXX characters.

normanstrong

2003-07-17 15:23:23 UTC

Just out of curiosity, how many Jewish composers are there supposed to
be? How many are we short to bring the number up to par?

Norm Strong

Floyd Patterson

2003-07-17 17:04:02 UTC

This whole thread is beginning to remind me of the question why are there so
few gay composers. I am always loved Ned Rorem's answer ..."there is no such
thing as a homosexual chord". So with apologies to Mr R there is "no such
thing as a jewish chord" so who cares???

Post by normanstrong
Just out of curiosity, how many Jewish composers are there supposed to
be? How many are we short to bring the number up to par?
Norm Strong

DelMarva LaPoule

2003-07-17 20:45:46 UTC

Post by Floyd Patterson
This whole thread is beginning to remind me of the question why are there so
few gay composers.

You're kidding, right??

Floyd Patterson

2003-07-17 20:58:44 UTC

No...I am very serious...after the posts I have seen about who is and who is
not a jew, what does this have to do with music and composers.

Post by DelMarva LaPoule

Post by Floyd Patterson
This whole thread is beginning to remind me of the question why are there so
few gay composers.

You're kidding, right??

Frank Berger

2003-07-17 21:38:07 UTC

Post by Floyd Patterson
This whole thread is beginning to remind me of the question why are there so
few gay composers. I am always loved Ned Rorem's answer ..."there is no such
thing as a homosexual chord". So with apologies to Mr R there is "no such
thing as a jewish chord" so who cares???

Post by normanstrong
Just out of curiosity, how many Jewish composers are there supposed to
be? How many are we short to bring the number up to par?
Norm Strong

Well, the person who started the thread apparently cares, as do the many
participants. The question is why? It seems to me the answer is nothing
more sinister than intellectual curiousity. Threads that mentions Jews,
Israel or Zionism that doesn't quickly drift into rancor are pretty unusual.
This is one is pretty benign (so far).

Frank Berger

2003-07-17 23:05:55 UTC

Post by Floyd Patterson
This whole thread is beginning to remind me of the question why are

there

Post by Frank Berger
so

Post by Floyd Patterson
few gay composers. I am always loved Ned Rorem's answer ..."there is

Post by Frank Berger
such

Post by Floyd Patterson
thing as a homosexual chord". So with apologies to Mr R there is "no

such

Post by Floyd Patterson
thing as a jewish chord" so who cares???

Post by normanstrong
Just out of curiosity, how many Jewish composers are there supposed to
be? How many are we short to bring the number up to par?
Norm Strong

unusual.

Post by Frank Berger
This is one is pretty benign (so far).

Benign perhaps...but what's the point? Example Gustav Mahler. Came from a
jewish background, but to my knowl;edge never thought of himself as

jewish.

Post by Frank Berger
Does he qualify as a jewish composer?

If Mahler had a Jewish mother then according to traditional (Orthodox)
Judaism then he was Jewish, regardless of whether he or anyone else
considered himself so. But this is just definitional. For purposes of this
discussion I wouldn't think that would be a particularly useful definition.
Why would one wonder whether this or that composer was Jewish (in some
sense)? Couldn't one be interested in whether a certain sort of heritage or
background has an influence on a composer's works? Nothing inappropriate
about that, is there? Could even be interesting to some people. Come to
think of it, the folk tune in Mahler's 1st symphony sounds "Jewish" to me,
although I've read liner notes that say the source is unknown or a mystery
or something like that.

Samir Golescu

2003-07-18 22:43:07 UTC

Mozart's, Sym 25 , the last two movements are Jewish too.

Really? I thought Konstanze wasn't.

regards,
SG

Floyd Patterson

2003-07-19 00:47:05 UTC

<<snort>> thanks for a chuckle that puts this whole silly thread into some
sort of perspective.

Post by Samir Golescu

Mozart's, Sym 25 , the last two movements are Jewish too.

Really? I thought Konstanze wasn't.
regards,
SG

Ansermetniac

2003-07-19 02:38:40 UTC

Samir,

I don't get it. Please explain

Abbedd

Post by Samir Golescu

Mozart's, Sym 25 , the last two movements are Jewish too.

Really? I thought Konstanze wasn't.
regards,
SG

Samir Golescu

2003-07-19 02:43:56 UTC

Post by Ansermetniac
Samir,
I don't get it. Please explain

Sorry. Obscure humor.

Post by Ansermetniac

Post by Samir Golescu

Mozart's, Sym 25 , the last two movements are Jewish too.

Really? I thought Konstanze wasn't.
regards,
SG

_______________

In wine there is wisdom. In beer there is strength. In water there is
bacteria. -- David Auerbach

Floyd Patterson

2003-07-19 00:45:59 UTC

Ah come on...do conductors like Leinsdorf, Solti, and Bernstein do Mahler
well be cause he/they are Jewish or is it because they were great
conductors?

If you are talking about the slow movement then it is Frere Jacques in
minor. The Klezmer band is just a bonus.
Mahler's music is entirely Jewish. There is nothing teutonic about it.
Compare Bruckner. It is filled with music that I heard in the synagogue as

young boy. Jewish conductors identify with this music. Leonard

Bernstein's

schmaltzyness and bending of phrases do not work for me in other composers
but his excesses in Mahler are not excessses at all. Is he the

reincarnation

of Gustav? And I have heard conductors that I rarely like do the fifth
superbly. These being the Jewish Leinsdorf and Solti.
Mozart's, Sym 25 , the last two movements are Jewish too

Who says? Mozart? Don't think so.

Abbedd

Post by Floyd Patterson
This whole thread is beginning to remind me of the question why are

there

Post by Frank Berger
so

Post by Floyd Patterson
few gay composers. I am always loved Ned Rorem's answer ..."there is

Post by Frank Berger
such

Post by Floyd Patterson
thing as a homosexual chord". So with apologies to Mr R there is "no

such

Post by Floyd Patterson
thing as a jewish chord" so who cares???

Post by normanstrong
Just out of curiosity, how many Jewish composers are there

supposed

Post by August Helmbright
to

Post by Floyd Patterson

Post by normanstrong
be? How many are we short to bring the number up to par?
Norm Strong

Well, the person who started the thread apparently cares, as do the

many

Post by Frank Berger
participants. The question is why? It seems to me the answer is

nothing

Post by Frank Berger
more sinister than intellectual curiousity. Threads that mentions

Jews,

Post by Frank Berger
Israel or Zionism that doesn't quickly drift into rancor are pretty

unusual.

Post by Frank Berger
This is one is pretty benign (so far).

Benign perhaps...but what's the point? Example Gustav Mahler. Came

from

Post by Frank Berger
jewish background, but to my knowl;edge never thought of himself as

jewish.

Post by Frank Berger
Does he qualify as a jewish composer?

this

Post by August Helmbright
discussion I wouldn't think that would be a particularly useful

definition.

Post by August Helmbright
Why would one wonder whether this or that composer was Jewish (in some
sense)? Couldn't one be interested in whether a certain sort of

heritage

Post by August Helmbright
background has an influence on a composer's works? Nothing

inappropriate

Post by August Helmbright
about that, is there? Could even be interesting to some people. Come to
think of it, the folk tune in Mahler's 1st symphony sounds "Jewish" to me,
although I've read liner notes that say the source is unknown or a mystery
or something like that.

Sam

2003-07-17 22:49:01 UTC

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:07:31 -0600, "Floyd Patterson"

Post by Frank Berger
Example Gustav Mahler. Came from a
jewish background, but to my knowl;edge never thought of himself as jewish.
Does he qualify as a jewish composer?

There is a set of audio tapes on Mahler, done by composer/academic
Robert Greenberg, which finds, like some of Mahler's contemporaries,
much in his music that is Jewish.

http://www.teach12.com/store/course1.asp?ai=80001&r=stCourse0GT1&id=756&d=Great+Masters%3A+Mahler%97His+Life+and+Music

Jeffrey Smith

2003-07-19 22:14:07 UTC

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:14:05 -0600, "Floyd Patterson"

So now we are defining a composer's jewishness based on what other people
think of his music.

Post by Sam
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:07:31 -0600, "Floyd Patterson"

Post by Frank Berger
Example Gustav Mahler. Came from a
jewish background, but to my knowl;edge never thought of himself as

jewish.

Post by Sam

Post by Frank Berger
Does he qualify as a jewish composer?

There is a set of audio tapes on Mahler, done by composer/academic
Robert Greenberg, which finds, like some of Mahler's contemporaries,
much in his music that is Jewish.

Gustav Mahler was born Jewish, with two Jewish parents. He converted
to Catholisism when he was 37, for the expediency of being appointed
to conduct the Vienna Opera, who would never appoint a Jew. His
Jewishness was never in doubt, and is in no way related to his music.

Jeffrey Smith.

To reply by email, remove the four XXXX characters.

Frank Berger

2003-07-16 06:50:29 UTC

Agreed. From an Orthodox perspective one can reasonably question whether
Reform Judaism IS Judaism, but the answer to the "who is a Jew?" question is
the same as always - A Jewish mother or a proper Halachic conversion.

Post by Richard Schultz
-----
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"

Serge

2003-07-13 14:36:09 UTC

Phil Wood

2003-07-14 00:51:20 UTC

Post by Serge

Fanny Mendelssohn-Hensel
Georges Bizet
Ferdinand Hiller
Stephen Heller
Maximilian Steinberg (a pupil and son-in-law of Rimsky and the teacher
of Shostakovich)
Mikhail Gnessin (an important Russian composer from the first half of
the 20th century, also a pupil of Rimsky)
Julia Weisberg (a pupil and daughter-in-law of Rimsky)
Lowell Liebermann
Moisei Weinberg (Vainberg)
Alfred Schnittke
Sergey Wolfensohn (an important Russian composer and the teacher of
many St. Petersburg composers from the second half of the 20th
century)

The original question included >are the only pre 1900 Composers I can think
of

I don't think Schnittke etc. count.

Phil

Alan Cooper

2003-07-13 15:10:21 UTC