Discussion:
Sokolov playing Hammerklavier
(too old to reply)
Zionazi
2024-11-16 17:43:22 UTC
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And I want to ask, did Sokolov listen to what he plays? Why did he
choose to play this unmusical work?

There is a short moment in the second movement I find sort of
interesting… the rest is just — I don’t understand… Schönberg creates
interesting colors… but this… what am I supposed to see here? Beautiful
form? I don’t understand… if the form were beautiful or good the work
would be good… but this is not good…

I have trouble understanding why people like this… what moments people
especially like in this piece…

I don’t understand how people are endlessly fascinated by this piece,
how people devote so much time studying this — I don’t like Chopin, but
I can see why people would like to play him…. But this?!?!

Sure probably there are things here no one did before… but it sounds
like shit…
Zionazi
2024-11-16 17:47:44 UTC
Permalink
And then people always talk about the beginning… „the way Beethoven
marked it is unplayable“ and stuff like that… who cares — it sounds like
shit… doesn’t anyone besides Dan and myself notice? ^^
Zionazi
2024-11-16 17:51:53 UTC
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And then people tell me Schönberg is irritating?!
Zionazi
2024-11-16 18:00:49 UTC
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The problem is not that it’s impossible to play the beginning as
Beethoven has written it… the problem is it’s impossible to play it
beautifully… like it just sounds shitty… I don’t understand what other
people would like about the beginning… what do they feel? Bravura?
Zionazi
2024-11-16 18:05:51 UTC
Permalink
its been a while since ive heard it and ive read sth about it -- but
apparently Beethoven was testing the new capabilities of the
Hammerklavier or sth... Seems like - especially in the beginning - he
wanted to show off or sth... anyways not a good advertisement imo for
the hammerklavier - there are no interesting sounds... shouldve rather
just played mozart on the hammerklavier back then or sth...
DeepBlue
2024-11-17 20:51:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zionazi
And then people always talk about the beginning…
„the way Beethoven marked it is unplayable“ and
It is obviously playable and there are existential
proofs it is. It was even more playable in Lang
van Bang's time when piano actions were quite a
bit lighter than nowadays.
Post by Zionazi
stuff like that… who cares — it sounds like
shit… doesn’t anyone besides Dan and myself
notice? ^^
They don't notice because they subscribe to a
shared belief system that has brainwashed the
listeners over 2 centuries that Lang van Bang
was "the greatest" composer ever. How could
one possibly not like and admire every single
note he wrote?

As always, belief defeats hearing and reason.

LvB's presumed birthday is December 16th. I
plan to celebrate it by listening all day to
Chopin, Albeniz, Debussy, Respighi, Scriabin,
Rachmaninov and Dvorak, ending the day with
B.193.

Cheers!
Zionazi
2024-11-17 21:15:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by DeepBlue
Post by Zionazi
And then people always talk about the beginning…
„the way Beethoven marked it is unplayable“ and
It is obviously playable and there are existential
proofs it is. It was even more playable in Lang
van Bang's time when piano actions were quite a
bit lighter than nowadays.
Post by Zionazi
stuff like that… who cares — it sounds like
shit… doesn’t anyone besides Dan and myself
notice? ^^
They don't notice because they subscribe to a
shared belief system that has brainwashed the
listeners over 2 centuries that Lang van Bang
was "the greatest" composer ever. How could
one possibly not like and admire every single
note he wrote?
Yeah I believe this to be true to quite a degree — this uncritical
stance towards him seems to do him more of a disservice than you rating
idiots like Albeniz and respighi above him…
DeepBlue
2024-11-18 03:12:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zionazi
Post by DeepBlue
Post by Zionazi
And then people always talk about the beginning…
„the way Beethoven marked it is unplayable“ and
It is obviously playable and there are existential
proofs it is. It was even more playable in Lang
van Bang's time when piano actions were quite a
bit lighter than nowadays.
Post by Zionazi
stuff like that… who cares — it sounds like
shit… doesn’t anyone besides Dan and myself
notice? ^^
They don't notice because they subscribe to a
shared belief system that has brainwashed the
listeners over 2 centuries that Lang van Bang
was "the greatest" composer ever. How could
one possibly not like and admire every single
note he wrote?
Yeah I believe this to be true to quite a degree —
this uncritical stance towards him seems to do
him more of a disservice than you rating idiots
like Albeniz and respighi above him…


Magic!
DeepBlue
2024-11-18 03:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zionazi
Post by DeepBlue
Post by Zionazi
And then people always talk about the beginning…
„the way Beethoven marked it is unplayable“ and
It is obviously playable and there are existential
proofs it is. It was even more playable in Lang
van Bang's time when piano actions were quite a
bit lighter than nowadays.
Post by Zionazi
stuff like that… who cares — it sounds like
shit… doesn’t anyone besides Dan and myself
notice? ^^
They don't notice because they subscribe to a
shared belief system that has brainwashed the
listeners over 2 centuries that Lang van Bang
was "the greatest" composer ever. How could
one possibly not like and admire every single
note he wrote?
Yeah I believe this to be true to quite a degree
— this uncritical stance towards him seems to do
him more of a disservice than you rating idiots
like Albeniz and respighi above him…
http://youtu.be/BqyDbyAMB0Y

Magic!
Zionazi
2024-11-20 21:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by DeepBlue
http://youtu.be/BqyDbyAMB0Y
Magic!
I disagree; this is here is magic:


Zionazi
2024-11-20 21:46:45 UTC
Permalink
Maybe I should reevaluate gilels Mozart… always thought it was magic…
then I thought maybe too heavy, but I feel wrong about it now..
DeepBlue
2024-11-20 22:12:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zionazi
Post by DeepBlue
http://youtu.be/BqyDbyAMB0Y
Magic!
http://youtu.be/LrNzIiTGU4M
Conventional and boring. I heard him
live many times. Unfortunately it was
after he wa castrated by the Soviet
regime.

No doubt Gilels was extremely polished
as a pianist, but lacked cojones. If
one wants to hear Gilels at his best,
these are the recordings to listen to:

Startppoint: Schumann Toccata op. 7:


Midpoint: Meowszart KV 595:


Endpoint: Grieg Lyric Pieces:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrIRbytwpAMmw9brvLO8aiJricjh1QfFt

Cheers!
Zionazi
2024-11-21 11:33:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by DeepBlue
Post by Zionazi
Post by DeepBlue
http://youtu.be/BqyDbyAMB0Y
Magic!
http://youtu.be/LrNzIiTGU4M
Conventional and boring. I heard him
live many times. Unfortunately it was
after he wa castrated by the Soviet
regime.
Thanks for your thoughts, I actually - in general - feel the same about
Gilels. I just happened to be listening to this one yesterday evening --
going through Gilels' Beethoven Sonatas -- and posted it, didn't hear
this in quite a while.

Gilels is too clunky and unfree... basically the opposite of HJ Lim...
Not too fond of either honestly... the composition still is magic though
;)

But in Sonata 14 best is Friedman, also in the second movement -- so
much magic...

Iberia is just super boring, La Vega apparently even more so... but
Gustavo Diaz-Jerez is a good pianist, still a very bad composer though..
and what's up with his virtual reality piano channel...if you want to
immerse yourself in the music, concentrate on the music... wanna put
that clunky vr-gear on your head? ;D

https://www.youtube.com/@VirtualRealityPiano/videos
Zionazi
2024-11-21 12:27:20 UTC
Permalink
I want to correct myself after listening to a bit more HJ Lim…

Gilels‘ Beethoven sonata set is quite good actually, and I still like
what I linked above - in fact this set is definitely one of the best…
Zionazi
2024-11-21 22:35:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zionazi
I want to correct myself after listening to a bit more HJ Lim…
Gilels‘ Beethoven sonata set is quite good actually, and I still like
what I linked above - in fact this set is definitely one of the best…
I’m done with gilels… he is no good btw… after rethinking this…
„definitely“ - lol… I was hesitating when writing this and went with
fuck it… anyway no need for gilels Beethoven sonata set I guess…
generally not fond of his playing…

DeepBlue
2024-11-21 21:30:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zionazi
But in Sonata 14 best is Friedman,
also in the second movement -- so
much magic...
Yes indeed, Friedman's Moonshine
leaves all others in the dust.

Just as so many of Friedman's
recordings of other works.

Cheers!
DeepBlue
2024-11-16 19:09:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zionazi
http://youtu.be/OB6kU36MCB0
And I want to ask, did Sokolov listen to what he
plays? Why did he choose to play this unmusical
work?
He did/does listen, though not through your ears,
and with different expectations. Just as in every
other line of work, professional musicians function
in a different space than their listeners. They hear
the music from the "inside", while listeners hear the
music from "outside". These are different perspectives.

There is a tension, sometimes even a manifest conflict
between rendering scores in a "faithful" way, versus
moving the audience. I brought this up many times in
this ng.
Post by Zionazi
There is a short moment in the second movement I find
sort of interesting… the rest is just — I don’t understand…
Schönberg creates interesting colors… but this… what am I
supposed to see here? Beautiful form? I don’t understand…
if the form were beautiful or good the work would be good…
but this is not good…
"Form" does not create "expression" just by itself.
Post by Zionazi
I have trouble understanding why people like this…
what moments people especially like in this piece…
"People" have been conditioned to "like" this piece
by centuries of pedantic brainwashing. If Beethoven
is the greatest composer who ever lived, it must
then follow the biggest longest work he wrote for
the piano must be an absolute masterpiece, and it
does not matter a bit how it sounds in people's
ears. This is the result of analyzing and teaching
music in a circular, self-referential system. Add
to this the fascination with difficulty.
Post by Zionazi
I don’t understand how people are endlessly fascinated
by this piece, how people devote so much time studying
this — I don’t like Chopin, but I can see why people
would like to play him…. But this?!?!
Humans have always held a fascination for physical
difficulty and for acrobatics. This occurs in music
as well. Paganini's Caprices, Ernst's Last Rose of
Spring, Liszt's Transcendental Etudes, et... all
belong in this bucket. They are admired not only
for their musical ideas, but also for execution
difficulty. The Hammerklavier also falls in the
same bucket -- except without the music.
Post by Zionazi
Sure probably there are things here no one did
before… but it sounds like shit…
I would suggest listening to HJ Lim for a reading
that almost makes it sound like music:






Cheers!
Zionazi
2024-11-17 06:21:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by DeepBlue
Post by Zionazi
http://youtu.be/OB6kU36MCB0
And I want to ask, did Sokolov listen to what he
plays? Why did he choose to play this unmusical
work?
He did/does listen, though not through your ears,
and with different expectations. Just as in every
other line of work, professional musicians function
in a different space than their listeners. They hear
the music from the "inside", while listeners hear the
music from "outside". These are different perspectives.
There is a tension, sometimes even a manifest conflict
between rendering scores in a "faithful" way, versus
moving the audience. I brought this up many times in
this ng.
Post by Zionazi
There is a short moment in the second movement I find
sort of interesting… the rest is just — I don’t understand…
Schönberg creates interesting colors… but this… what am I
supposed to see here? Beautiful form? I don’t understand…
if the form were beautiful or good the work would be good…
but this is not good…
"Form" does not create "expression" just by itself.
Post by Zionazi
I have trouble understanding why people like this…
what moments people especially like in this piece…
"People" have been conditioned to "like" this piece
by centuries of pedantic brainwashing. If Beethoven
is the greatest composer who ever lived, it must
then follow the biggest longest work he wrote for
the piano must be an absolute masterpiece, and it
does not matter a bit how it sounds in people's
ears. This is the result of analyzing and teaching
music in a circular, self-referential system. Add
to this the fascination with difficulty.
Post by Zionazi
I don’t understand how people are endlessly fascinated
by this piece, how people devote so much time studying
this — I don’t like Chopin, but I can see why people
would like to play him…. But this?!?!
Humans have always held a fascination for physical
difficulty and for acrobatics. This occurs in music
as well. Paganini's Caprices, Ernst's Last Rose of
Spring, Liszt's Transcendental Etudes, et... all
belong in this bucket. They are admired not only
for their musical ideas, but also for execution
difficulty. The Hammerklavier also falls in the
same bucket -- except without the music.
Yeah, thank you for your time and thoughts — I agree to a degree; still
think there is music in it though, although very very very little… there
are some things - in an abstract sense -, like the way plays around with
trills — although the playing around seems a bit coarse maybe… - you can
actually take inspiration from… it’s just that Beethoven - imo - didn’t
manage to do anything great with this idea - but the idea is good… but
then again I feel this idea is nothing too special in the sense that
many people could have had it — using trills in a more creative way

With Mozart I’m always dumbfounded… it’s like how is he able to do this…
with the way Beethoven uses the trills here… eh…

But Beethoven is actually playful here…

Also - as is often the case w Beethoven - this piece seems to aim at
being profound… but man… I can’t take this… like it seem so cheap… - say
the beginning
Post by DeepBlue
Post by Zionazi
Sure probably there are things here no one did
before… but it sounds like shit…
I would suggest listening to HJ Lim for a reading
http://youtu.be/CtYT67nV76M
http://youtu.be/cN-oytHPA0U
http://youtu.be/2jOt--GPleU
http://youtu.be/tf2Qlv_711U
It still sucks… but so do the other pieces - as far as I’ve heard - you
have mentioned above

Won’t be able to wasting anymore time with this stupid piece…
Post by DeepBlue
Cheers!
Zionazi
2024-11-17 06:53:02 UTC
Permalink
Yeah man what can i say…
Besides Mozart I prefer to listen to Bach, Haydn, Schubert, Brahms,
Schönberg, Webern and Berg to Debussy — I also find them more inspiring…
*to Beethoven instead of Debussy
- over Beethoven and I’d even prefer to listen to Schumann, Debussy and
Repeated it here…
ravel over him…
Fuck Fidelio btw
Zionazi
2024-11-17 07:44:10 UTC
Permalink
Just listened to Bach Cello Suite 1 Fournier — so beautiful…

Might be my second fav composer…

1) Mozart
2) Bach
3/4) Schubert, Brahms
5) Haydn
6/7/8/) Schönberg, Webern, Berg

These are the most important for me

„Guilty pleasures“: Debussy, Ravel and Schumann i guess in some ways
Zionazi
2024-11-17 20:47:51 UTC
Permalink
No need Haydn sorry… the rest stays…

Also Beethoven is surely better than Haydn…
Zionazi
2024-11-17 06:51:15 UTC
Permalink
Yeah man what can i say…

Besides Mozart I prefer to listen to Bach, Haydn, Schubert, Brahms,
Schönberg, Webern and Berg to Debussy — I also find them more inspiring…
- over Beethoven and I’d even prefer to listen to Schumann, Debussy and
ravel over him…

Fuck Fidelio btw
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