Discussion:
Leibowitz: Beethoven
(too old to reply)
Theresa
2005-05-21 20:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I just noticed that Scribendum offers a box with Leibowitz
conducting the 9 LvB symphonies for about half of the price that
the Chesky CDs would cost. I haven't a single CD from Scribendum.
Is it a good offer or what are the negative sides? (Those Chesky
CDs are premium priced here in Germany.)
a***@aol.com
2005-05-21 20:56:39 UTC
Permalink
I do not know this particular issue on CD but Leibowitz (Boulez's
teacher by the way) recorded these for Readers Digest LPs in London
about 1961-62 with the Royal Philharmonic which was still then pretty
much Beecham's Royal Phil, as a result of which the wind playing is
particularly good.

Tempos are pretty fast, as I recall. Pain in the arse to play for (or
so my first teacher said) on account of being somewhat meticulous.

Apparently was very good at Berlioz. Other than that, cannot help, but
might be worth a try I suppose.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
patter
2005-05-21 21:15:38 UTC
Permalink
I have both the Maazel/Cleveland Brahms cycle and the Wyn Morris
Mahler 10th(coupled w/the Flipse 8th) on Scribendum, and the transfers
are very good,particullarly the Brahms. I'd bet the Leibowitz cycle is
fine for the price. Cheers!
Matthew Silverstein
2005-05-21 21:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Where is this set available?

Matty
Theresa
2005-05-22 07:23:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Where is this set available?
Matty
I saw it at jpc.de. MDT also has it.
k***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-05-21 22:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Because as stated the Leibowitz Beethoven cycle was recorded for
Reader's Digest it never had the kind of critical acclaim it so richly
deserved. It was produced by Charles Gerhardt and superbly engineered
by Kenneth Wilkinson, and on the reissued LPs (re-pressed in 1981) in a
box entitled "The Beethoven Treasury" the sound is wonderful and the
performances a revelation. If the CD transfers have been well done (and
I haven't heard them, only the LPs) then I'd say the set was
unmissable.

That "Treasury" LP box, by the way, also contained the Beethoven Violin
Concerto with Erich Gruenberg as soloist and Jascha Horenstein
conducting the New Philharmonia, and the Emperor Concerto with Rudolf
Firkusny and the RPO conducted by Rudolf Kempe.

People often turned their noses up at Reader's Digest recordings but in
fact they contain many great performances, beautifully recorded. That
was the case not only with this Beethoven set but also an 8-LP
Tchaikovsky box. This had a sensational 1st Piano Concerto with Earl
Wild and the RPO under Anatole Fistoulari; Sir Adrian Boult in a
rip-roaring selection from "Swan Lake"; the Violin Concerto with Itzhak
Perlman and the LSO under Alfred Wallenstein; and Charles Gerhardt
himself conducting one of the most exciting "Romeo and Juliet"
recordings on disc. It's a shame that these terrific performances have
had such a limited general circulation.
KS.
a***@aol.com
2005-05-21 23:08:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@yahoo.co.uk
Because as stated the Leibowitz Beethoven cycle was recorded for
Reader's Digest it never had the kind of critical acclaim it so richly
deserved. It was produced by Charles Gerhardt and superbly engineered
by Kenneth Wilkinson, and on the reissued LPs (re-pressed in 1981) in a
box entitled "The Beethoven Treasury" the sound is wonderful and the
performances a revelation. If the CD transfers have been well done (and
I haven't heard them, only the LPs) then I'd say the set was
unmissable.
That "Treasury" LP box, by the way, also contained the Beethoven Violin
Concerto with Erich Gruenberg as soloist and Jascha Horenstein
conducting the New Philharmonia, and the Emperor Concerto with Rudolf
Firkusny and the RPO conducted by Rudolf Kempe.
People often turned their noses up at Reader's Digest recordings but in
fact they contain many great performances, beautifully recorded. That
was the case not only with this Beethoven set but also an 8-LP
Tchaikovsky box. This had a sensational 1st Piano Concerto with Earl
Wild and the RPO under Anatole Fistoulari; Sir Adrian Boult in a
rip-roaring selection from "Swan Lake"; the Violin Concerto with Itzhak
Perlman and the LSO under Alfred Wallenstein; and Charles Gerhardt
himself conducting one of the most exciting "Romeo and Juliet"
recordings on disc. It's a shame that these terrific performances have
had such a limited general circulation.
KS.
Yes, they did wonderful things including a 10-lp set of "Light Music"
not to mention Earl Wild doing the complete Rachmaninov piano
concertos, also with the Royal Philharmonic (I think).

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Nick Sun
2005-05-21 23:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Or because that many music lovers have heard many better performances
than Leibowitz's underpowered play? It might have its importance when
it was recorded, but time has changed, don't you know? Your 1960's
corvette may be attractive for collectors, but there are far more
better performed car out there right now! Even a Accord Hybrid can
better it, or can it? :-0
William Sommerwerck
2005-05-22 00:56:24 UTC
Permalink
I haven't listened to the Leibowitz set in a long time, but -- if you can get it
cheaply enough -- it's definitely worth hearing. Leibowitz was the first
"modern" conductor to really pay attention to how the scores were actually
written and notated.
Nick Sun
2005-05-22 01:20:02 UTC
Permalink
I do have it, and know what you mean. But among over 40 plus LVB 9th in
my collection, it might ranked right at the bottom. Time has changed,
or has it? Paying attention to how the scores were actually written
and notated alone is no longer a guarantee to its success. Under a
blind audition against many others, I don't believe it will stand out
at the top, even by its fans.
J***@msn.com
2005-05-22 01:36:02 UTC
Permalink
Nick Sun basically has no ears; I post even if the effete pre poster
regarding Stix seems to support my claims; the Leibowitz set (for a
recorded complete Beethoven set is miles above Karajan's first DG set
(which is not saying much i admit)) is excellent; no serious collector
should be without it. In a blindfold test (most of the cavalier
posters of this list) would probably choose Leibowitz as superior to
whoever else is posited against him. The Leibowitz set is a true find.
Free, in Beethoven's spirit and musically beyond par (remember I said
it is a recorded, not live, complete set).
Hauser
Nick Sun
2005-05-22 02:06:02 UTC
Permalink
Well, I bought it because I saw good reviews on it. I dis it because I
am open minded enough to welcome (not endorse, since I am no fan of
anybody) any new or old recorded performances. So, ears I do have,
which may not be good enough, but I am drunk yet, so one post to answer
me is enough, six seems redundant. Hey, I've never said Leibowitz's
Beethoven set is all like those five empty posts, or have I? :-)
Paul Goldstein
2005-05-22 04:32:47 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Nick Sun
says...
Post by Nick Sun
I do have it, and know what you mean. But among over 40 plus LVB 9th in
my collection, it might ranked right at the bottom. Time has changed,
or has it? Paying attention to how the scores were actually written
and notated alone is no longer a guarantee to its success. Under a
blind audition against many others, I don't believe it will stand out
at the top, even by its fans.
The 9th is the only weak link in the Leibowitz cycle. It is validly criticized
as underpowered, but I don't think anyone with ears would find the 2nd or 5th,
for example, anything but first rate.
--
Paul Goldstein
Vincent Ventrone
2005-05-24 18:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Goldstein
The 9th is the only weak link in the Leibowitz cycle. It is validly criticized
as underpowered, but I don't think anyone with ears would find the 2nd or 5th,
for example, anything but first rate.
Hmmmm...I just bought a copy of the 9th from Amazon after hearing it on the
radio & being completely bowled over by how dramatic & individual this
recording is. Ah well, different strokes...
J***@msn.com
2005-05-22 01:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theresa
Hi,
I just noticed that Scribendum offers a box with Leibowitz
conducting the 9 LvB symphonies for about half of the price that
the Chesky CDs would cost. I haven't a single CD from Scribendum.
Is it a good offer or what are the negative sides? (Those Chesky
CDs are premium priced here in Germany.)
J***@msn.com
2005-05-22 01:31:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theresa
Hi,
I just noticed that Scribendum offers a box with Leibowitz
conducting the 9 LvB symphonies for about half of the price that
the Chesky CDs would cost. I haven't a single CD from Scribendum.
Is it a good offer or what are the negative sides? (Those Chesky
CDs are premium priced here in Germany.)
J***@msn.com
2005-05-22 01:31:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theresa
Hi,
I just noticed that Scribendum offers a box with Leibowitz
conducting the 9 LvB symphonies for about half of the price that
the Chesky CDs would cost. I haven't a single CD from Scribendum.
Is it a good offer or what are the negative sides? (Those Chesky
CDs are premium priced here in Germany.)
J***@msn.com
2005-05-22 01:31:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theresa
Hi,
I just noticed that Scribendum offers a box with Leibowitz
conducting the 9 LvB symphonies for about half of the price that
the Chesky CDs would cost. I haven't a single CD from Scribendum.
Is it a good offer or what are the negative sides? (Those Chesky
CDs are premium priced here in Germany.)
J***@msn.com
2005-05-22 01:31:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theresa
Hi,
I just noticed that Scribendum offers a box with Leibowitz
conducting the 9 LvB symphonies for about half of the price that
the Chesky CDs would cost. I haven't a single CD from Scribendum.
Is it a good offer or what are the negative sides? (Those Chesky
CDs are premium priced here in Germany.)
J. Teske
2005-05-22 04:31:53 UTC
Permalink
This is an interesting set. It dates from the early 1960's and in the
US was originally issued as a Reader Digest set. At the time I first
heard about the set from my teacher Rudolf Kolisch [leader of the
Kolisch and Pro Arte Quartets] who wrote a seminal paper in the late
30's/early 40's called [in English] Tempo and Character in Beethoven's
Music. Briefly stated, Kolisch argued that Beethoven had some very
specific tempi in mind, differentiated pricisely on these tempi (e.g.
Allegro con Brio meant something specific, Allegro something else. And
that the players of his time e.g. the Walter's, Furthwanglers,
Klemperers were missing this point with their turgid tempi. Kolisch
acknowledge that Toscanini was closer than most to an ideal for tempi
but wasn't very precise in the differentiation...in essence a bit
sloppy (I don't agree with that view). In lectures of his that I
attended when this set came out in the US, Kolisch praised them highly
as being the closest to his views (and confirming comments of other
posters that the tempi are brisk) and Leibowitz (who was a friend of
Kolisch) was very scrupulous in following these tempi indications.
I also heard Kolisch perform the entire Beethoven Piano/Violin cycle
three times (in fact I was the page turner for these cycles) and
indeed these were very exciting compared to the norms of the time.
Listeners today may not find them so extraordinarily fast as tastes
have changed in the past 45 years. I did not hear the Leibowitz set at
that time (I couldn't afford another Beethoven 9, I was a poor college
student), but I have acquired them since. They are fine performances,
exciting because of the tension and tempi. They are sonically somewhat
dated (they were in stereo originally though) and they are done with a
Parisian orchestra while OK is not up to BPO VPO standards.
As a modern alternative, I find the Zinman set on Arte Nova, also a
bargain set to be very enjoyable.
As I am an orchestral musician and have played all the Beethoven
concerti and all the symphonies except #2 (I do that next fall) I am
gratified that my conductors are familiar with the Kolisch paper (It
is still almost manditory reading in graduate music study) and capture
much of the character Kolisch (and Leibowitz and Zinman) achieve.
[Some of the HIP movement bands also have similar tempi, but I, being
a certified old fogey, have not warmed up to that conceit.]

Jon Teske, violinist
Post by Theresa
Hi,
I just noticed that Scribendum offers a box with Leibowitz
conducting the 9 LvB symphonies for about half of the price that
the Chesky CDs would cost. I haven't a single CD from Scribendum.
Is it a good offer or what are the negative sides? (Those Chesky
CDs are premium priced here in Germany.)
Damian R
2005-05-22 12:45:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Teske
student), but I have acquired them since. They are fine performances,
exciting because of the tension and tempi. They are sonically somewhat
dated (they were in stereo originally though) and they are done with a
Parisian orchestra while OK is not up to BPO VPO standards.
I've been listening my way through this CD set - I did have the LPs a few
years back, and the performances are as fine as I remembered. The orchestra
is the RPO from London. The sound is stereo, and sounds pretty good. Brisk
tempi as others have noted, one or two minor moments of shaky ensemble. But
I'm certainly glad I got them. When I've listened to that cycle I'm moving
on to Schuricht's cycle which I picked up on CD recently too - another set I
really enjoyed on LP.

Damian
Post by J. Teske
Jon Teske, violinist
Post by Theresa
Hi,
I just noticed that Scribendum offers a box with Leibowitz
conducting the 9 LvB symphonies for about half of the price that
the Chesky CDs would cost. I haven't a single CD from Scribendum.
Is it a good offer or what are the negative sides? (Those Chesky
CDs are premium priced here in Germany.)
J. Teske
2005-05-22 13:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Damian R
Post by J. Teske
student), but I have acquired them since. They are fine performances,
exciting because of the tension and tempi. They are sonically somewhat
dated (they were in stereo originally though) and they are done with a
Parisian orchestra while OK is not up to BPO VPO standards.
I've been listening my way through this CD set - I did have the LPs a few
years back, and the performances are as fine as I remembered. The orchestra
is the RPO from London. The sound is stereo, and sounds pretty good. Brisk
tempi as others have noted, one or two minor moments of shaky ensemble. But
I'm certainly glad I got them. When I've listened to that cycle I'm moving
on to Schuricht's cycle which I picked up on CD recently too - another set I
really enjoyed on LP.
Yes, sorry...I misremembered the orchestra...just checked my own set.
I confused the Beethoven 9/Leibowitz with some other Leibowitz
recordings (from Paris) that I have.

Jon Teske
Post by Damian R
Damian
Post by J. Teske
Jon Teske, violinist
Post by Theresa
Hi,
I just noticed that Scribendum offers a box with Leibowitz
conducting the 9 LvB symphonies for about half of the price that
the Chesky CDs would cost. I haven't a single CD from Scribendum.
Is it a good offer or what are the negative sides? (Those Chesky
CDs are premium priced here in Germany.)
Eric Grunin
2005-05-22 21:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Teske
I first
heard about the set from my teacher Rudolf Kolisch [leader of the
Kolisch and Pro Arte Quartets] who wrote a seminal paper in the late
30's/early 40's called [in English] Tempo and Character in Beethoven's
Music.
It is indeed a brilliant paper, and Leibowitz's performances are
positively influenced by it, but there are some problems. A given
tempo will have different effects when the music in question is
arranged for piano, or string quartet, or orchestra; and Kolisch does
not consider this.

Scherchen's late-50s performances (such as the famously fast Eroica)
seem also to have been influenced by Kolisch's analysis.

In any case: the potential purchaser should be warned that the
Leibowitz Eroica omits the first-movement repeat, which at this tempo
is a mistake.

I am curious as to which repeats he observes or omits.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Sam
2005-05-22 21:55:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Grunin
In any case: the potential purchaser should be warned that the
Leibowitz Eroica omits the first-movement repeat, which at this tempo
is a mistake.
I think you will have a hard time finding any pre CD era recording
which takes that repeat. Same for the repeat in the finale of the
5th.
patter
2005-05-22 22:35:24 UTC
Permalink
I think there was a Eroica with Monteux that took the first movement
repeat,as well Klemperer took the 5th finale repeat in '55. I'm sure
there are other examples.
Simon Roberts
2005-05-22 22:51:24 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, patter
says...
Post by patter
I think there was a Eroica with Monteux that took the first movement
repeat,as well Klemperer took the 5th finale repeat in '55. I'm sure
there are other examples.
Can't remember re others, but Mravinsky took the 5th finale repeat in his 1949
recording.

Simon
Eric Grunin
2005-05-23 04:41:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by patter
I think there was a Eroica with Monteux that took the first movement
repeat
You're probably thinking of Kleiber (same orchestra - Vienna).

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
patter
2005-05-23 05:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Yes-thank you Eric,Vienna Phil. w/Kleiber is the one I was thinking of.
rkhalona
2005-05-25 00:09:19 UTC
Permalink
patter wrote:

<<I think there was a Eroica with Monteux that took the first movement
repeat,as well Klemperer took the 5th finale repeat in '55. I'm sure
there are other examples. >>

I don't know that Monteux Eroica, but Klemperer takes the repeat in the
IV
of the 5th in all his recordings, except in his live BRSO performance
released by EMI.

RK
Eric Grunin
2005-05-23 04:40:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam
Post by Eric Grunin
In any case: the potential purchaser should be warned that the
Leibowitz Eroica omits the first-movement repeat, which at this tempo
is a mistake.
I think you will have a hard time finding any pre CD era recording
which takes that repeat.
I had no trouble finding these:

1930 Mengelberg
1955 Kleiber
1958 Scherchen
1960 Konwitschny
1961 Ormandy
1964 Bernstein
1966 Kubelik
1969 Jochum
1971 Ferencik
1972 Barshai
1974 Solti
1975 Ozawa
1976 Collegium Aureum
1976 Loughran
1976 Dorati
1976 Jochum
1977 Morris
1977 Asahina
1977 Maazel
1978 Giulini
1978 Bernstein

All except the Kubelik were mainstream releases on major labels.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
rkhalona
2005-05-25 00:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Eric wrote:

<<...
1966 Kubelik [Eroica]
...

All except the Kubelik were mainstream releases on major labels.>>

Details on the Kubelik, please.

RK
Eric Grunin
2005-05-25 15:25:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by rkhalona
<<...
1966 Kubelik [Eroica]
...
All except the Kubelik were mainstream releases on major labels.>>
Details on the Kubelik, please.
It's on Hoechst 599261, a label with which I'm otherwise unfamiliar.
It's also so different from the four other Kubelik performances I've
got on hand that I at first I questioned its authenticity.

Here's the background. Based on the information at
http://www2g.biglobe.ne.jp/~KUBELIK/kubelik.htm, it appears that
Kubelik did a full Beethoven cycle with the Bavarian RSO as part of
the 66-67 season. In October 66 this record was made, and later in the
same season (March 67), he recorded the same piece with the Berlin
Philharmonic for Unitel.

The odd part is that the October recording [a] takes the first movment
repeat [b] takes II at a 'normal' tempo; whereas all his later
performances -- including the Unitel, recorded only 5 months later --
omit the repeat and take II exceptionally slowly. It's not just the
overall tempo, they are also fairly uniform internally.

Radical interpretive changes like that are not unique, but they are
unusual.

You can see this graphically here:
www.grunin.com/eroica/?page=speed_3.asp

Select 'Kubelik (5)' from the list box -- the dot separated from all
the others is the Hoechst performance.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
rkhalona
2005-05-25 16:21:30 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Eric. I have sent you a private message on your
"eroica_project"
address.

RK

rkhalona
2005-05-25 00:06:53 UTC
Permalink
Sam wrote:

<<I think you will have a hard time finding any pre CD era recording
which takes that repeat. Same for the repeat in the finale of the
5th. >>

There were several of both, most notably Mengelberg's NYPSO Eroica
from 1930 (Biddulph), which includes the 1st mvt. repeat and a live
Beethoven
5th with Klemperer and the LAPO (Archipel) from circa 1934.
The first recording on which I heard the Eroica 1st mvt. repeat was
Erich Kleiber's VPO recording (1955). I feel cheated whenever that
repeat is
omitted, except when the performance is really bad.

RK
d***@aol.com
2005-05-24 19:15:04 UTC
Permalink
The idea that any tempo can be nailed down for all time for all groups
of performing forces for all conductors for all halls is totally
absurd. Equally absurd is the notion that the tempo you choose when
running through a performance in your head is exactly the tempo you
would choose when standing in front of an orchestra conducting the
piece live.

Let us pretend that Beethoven never went deaf but instead pursued a
dual performing career as a pianist and as a conductor. Do you really
believe that Beethoven would have adhered to exactly the same tempo
every time he conducted the Eroica or played the Pathetique? Far more
deeply suspicious of the performer than Beethoven, Stravinsky was even
more dogmatic (in stated principle) about permanently and mechanically
nailing down the tempo for his pieces via metronome markings than
Beethoven, yet none of his own performances of The Symphony of Psalms
matches his published metronome markings, nor do the tempi of one
performance match another. But our HIPsters will latch onto the
objective fact of Beethoven's published metronome markings and insist
that they are the only route to "authenticity."

-david gable
a***@aol.com
2005-05-24 19:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
The idea that any tempo can be nailed down for all time for all groups
of performing forces for all conductors for all halls is totally
absurd. Equally absurd is the notion that the tempo you choose when
running through a performance in your head is exactly the tempo you
would choose when standing in front of an orchestra conducting the
piece live.
Let us pretend that Beethoven never went deaf but instead pursued a
dual performing career as a pianist and as a conductor. Do you really
believe that Beethoven would have adhered to exactly the same tempo
every time he conducted the Eroica or played the Pathetique? Far more
deeply suspicious of the performer than Beethoven, Stravinsky was even
more dogmatic (in stated principle) about permanently and mechanically
nailing down the tempo for his pieces via metronome markings than
Beethoven, yet none of his own performances of The Symphony of Psalms
matches his published metronome markings, nor do the tempi of one
performance match another. But our HIPsters will latch onto the
objective fact of Beethoven's published metronome markings and insist
that they are the only route to "authenticity."
-david gable
I have to say that I think Mr Gable absolutely right in this. Leaving
historical music aside, for a moment, I have over the years
rehearsed/recorded contemporary works with the composer present at
those sessions, worse with the composer conducting:):)

On such occasions, when they may be hearing their creation "live" for
the first time in full reality, alterations are often quite frequent.
You are advised to take a very long pencil at such times.

They will alter dynamics either entirely or between sections, change
tempi markings, metronome markings - or agree them at rehearsal and
then conduct it differently on the night! Sometimes, at least in
rehearsals, you are making it up as you go along and there is plenty of
evidence (for me) that sometimes the composer is as well.

It is a known fact that what works on the page does not necessarily
work in performance. Sticking to contemporary works, it is quite usual
to meet performance instructions which are unplayable as written in
which case some deal has to be struck.

A further problem (as I see it) is that many composers are forced by
the nature of the beast to compose at the keyboard but what may well
sound "right" in that pregnancy can miscarry when it becomes a full
score for 60 or 70 others.

It may be that this is purely a contemporary problem and that the
masters of the past got it right first time but somehow I doubt it.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Iain Neill Reid
2005-05-24 23:31:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
Post by d***@aol.com
The idea that any tempo can be nailed down for all time for all groups
of performing forces for all conductors for all halls is totally
absurd. Equally absurd is the notion that the tempo you choose when
running through a performance in your head is exactly the tempo you
would choose when standing in front of an orchestra conducting the
piece live.
Let us pretend that Beethoven never went deaf but instead pursued a
dual performing career as a pianist and as a conductor. Do you really
believe that Beethoven would have adhered to exactly the same tempo
every time he conducted the Eroica or played the Pathetique? Far more
deeply suspicious of the performer than Beethoven, Stravinsky was even
more dogmatic (in stated principle) about permanently and mechanically
nailing down the tempo for his pieces via metronome markings than
Beethoven, yet none of his own performances of The Symphony of Psalms
matches his published metronome markings, nor do the tempi of one
performance match another. But our HIPsters will latch onto the
objective fact of Beethoven's published metronome markings and insist
that they are the only route to "authenticity."
-david gable
I have to say that I think Mr Gable absolutely right in this. Leaving
historical music aside, for a moment, I have over the years
rehearsed/recorded contemporary works with the composer present at
those sessions, worse with the composer conducting:):)
Well, yes, I think he is right on the concept - but, as in the past,
he's using it to attack a strawman, since I'm certainly not aware of
any HIPster in the last 15 (maybe 20) years who's argued that the
metronome markings were all you needed; and, even before then,
Norrington was the only one who attempted to take everything at
face value (see the tenor march section of the 9th), and he certainly
doesn't do that now (see the Hanssler recordings).

This dead horse just won't run, no matter how hard you beat it

Neill Reid
k***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-05-24 20:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Re. Mr Gable's comments: ... Many years ago a critic on a BBC radio
programme compared and illustrated Stravinsky's own three recordings of
'The Rite of Spring' (78s, mono LP and stereo LP) and found that not
only did they differ wildly from each other as performances but also
his tempos didn't correspond to the metronome indications in the score.
I suppose opinions will differ as to how good a conductor Stravinsky
was, but even so ...
KS
a***@aol.com
2005-05-24 20:50:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@yahoo.co.uk
Re. Mr Gable's comments: ... Many years ago a critic on a BBC radio
programme compared and illustrated Stravinsky's own three recordings of
'The Rite of Spring' (78s, mono LP and stereo LP) and found that not
only did they differ wildly from each other as performances but also
his tempos didn't correspond to the metronome indications in the score.
I suppose opinions will differ as to how good a conductor Stravinsky
was, but even so ...
KS
It might have something to do with his conducting but it also might
have something to do with how it went "on the night" (in my experience,
anyway).

As previously noted, music is an inexact art form (or it is if it is to
come alive, in my view).

Which, I think, is why all of you debate "interpretations" and get so
much pleasure/pain out of them.

I think this newsgroup would be sunk without "intepretations".

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Simon Roberts
2005-05-24 21:30:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
The idea that any tempo can be nailed down for all time for all groups
of performing forces for all conductors for all halls is totally
absurd.
Yes; but who advocates such an idea?
Post by d***@aol.com
Let us pretend that Beethoven never went deaf but instead pursued a
dual performing career as a pianist and as a conductor. Do you really
believe that Beethoven would have adhered to exactly the same tempo
every time he conducted the Eroica or played the Pathetique?
No; but it hardly follows from that that he would have sanctioned the amazing
range of tempi available in recordings of, say, Eroica i; he may well have said
to Klemperer, Furtwangler, Fricsay etc. "that's interesting, but it's not
'allegro con brio'".
Post by d***@aol.com
But our HIPsters will latch onto the
objective fact of Beethoven's published metronome markings and insist
that they are the only route to "authenticity."
Really? Name one who has said that.

Simon
d***@aol.com
2005-05-24 22:07:35 UTC
Permalink
"No; but it hardly follows from that that he would have sanctioned the
amazing
range of tempi available in recordings of, say, Eroica i; he may well
have said
to Klemperer, Furtwangler, Fricsay etc. 'that's interesting, but it's
not
'allegro con brio' '."

Here I am in total agreement with you.

-david gable
patter
2005-05-24 22:14:11 UTC
Permalink
Silly. All three certainly adopted differing tempi at different stages
of their careers. Klemp in his '55 Philharmonia was 'allegro con brio'.
Simon Roberts
2005-05-25 03:10:11 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, patter
says...
Post by patter
Silly. All three certainly adopted differing tempi at different stages
of their careers. Klemp in his '55 Philharmonia was 'allegro con brio'.
Andante con moto at most.

Simon
Eric Grunin
2005-05-25 15:39:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by patter
Silly. All three certainly adopted differing tempi at different stages
of their careers. Klemp in his '55 Philharmonia was 'allegro con brio'.
I think that if you look here, you'll see that most musicans disagree:

www.grunin.com/eroica/?page=speed.asp

[Select 'Klemperer (10)' from the drop-down box to highlight his 10
extant performances.]

'Con brio', yes; 'Allegro', no.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Matthew Silverstein
2005-05-24 22:30:50 UTC
Permalink
But our HIPsters will latch onto the objective fact of Beethoven's
published metronome markings and insist that they are the only route to
"authenticity."
Haven't you tired of attacking the straw-man HIPster yet? For years you've
been making ridiculous statements about the beliefs and intentions of
HIPsters, and for years various contributors here have been responding with
facts and quotations to the contrary.

Have you any idea how long it has been since any HIPster seriously bandied
the term "authenticity" about?

Matty
d***@aol.com
2005-05-25 05:57:07 UTC
Permalink
Matty,

Once a curmudgeon, always a curmudgeon. I'm on strike (selectively, of
course) against the modern world. So you'll have to take the good with
the bad in my posts.

-david gable
baldric
2005-05-25 11:16:35 UTC
Permalink
Get the set. It's variable, but it's cheap and contains many
revelations.

Leibowitz was a very thoughtful musician and his LvB tends to follow
Toscanini as far as tempo goes. The highlights of the set include the
Eroica (a match for Toscanini's '49 recording) a thrilling 2nd and 5th,
and warm performances of the 4th and 7th that don't compete with either
Walter or Cluytens but are still good performances.

One poster described the 9th as turgid - I can only imagine he was
listening to Ludwig Weber's "O Freunde" introduction. Unfortunately,
Weber he was well past his prime by then. However, the Scherzo is the
best I've ever heard and the opening movement has all the drama needed
to set the piece off. Despite Weber's failings the finale is still very
good

I've offloaded a number of LvB cycles in my time but I've always kept
the Leibowitz. Yes, the RPO is a bit raw and it's obvious that some
performances were rushed into the 'can' but Leobowitz's perceptions of
the works are to be admired.
R***@aol.com
2005-05-22 09:25:37 UTC
Permalink
If you are interested in the development of Beethoven interpretation
you ought to make a point of hearing them.
When not conducting Leibowitz was a hugely intelligent analyst and
teacher; he took a lot of Kolish's ideas one step further, not just in
rigour but into other areas, like opera. I can't recommend his
collection of essays and articles Le Compositeur et son Double
(Gallimard 1971) too highly.
Also his record of Schubert 9 with the RPO is pretty terrific.
Vincent Ventrone
2005-05-24 18:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Theresa
I just noticed that Scribendum offers a box with Leibowitz
conducting the 9 LvB symphonies for about half of the price that
the Chesky CDs would cost. I haven't a single CD from Scribendum.
Don't know about that label but, as performances, these are *wonderful* --
generally swift tempos (except, curiously, in the 8th), imaginative, very
dramatic, very well-played. One of the best sets I've ever heard.
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