Beethoven Eroica Symphony

[Lawrence Chalmers]

It wasn't until my mid 20's that I first heard the 3rd. It was given to
me by a friend. It was the Artia lp with von Matacic/Czech
Philharmonic. I loved it so much, I kept it until it was worn out and
never got a cance to replace it. I haven't heard that many since, but I
do have Reiner/CSO and Scherchen/Vienna (Westminster) and enjoy those
performances all the time. When I tried to acquire the Matacic on cd it
was unavailable until I finally got a copy.

So I'm listening now to this performance
and it is still as splendid as when I first heard it. Its on a
Supraphon Archive series cd. Don't know how available this performance
is but every lover of this work should acquire it, if they don't have
it. The slow movement is more paced than others but it works very well
for me. From the multitude of available performances, your experiences
(especially your first hearing/recording) would be interesting to hear
about as well as your personal favorites, aside from the ones I
mentioned here. I might want to go beyond just these three...

Thanks!

[p***@yahoo.com]

It wasn't until my mid 20's that I first heard the 3rd.  It was given to
me by a friend.  It was the Artia lp with von Matacic/Czech
Philharmonic.  I loved it so much, I kept it until it was worn out and
never got a cance to replace it.  I haven't heard that many since, but I
do have Reiner/CSO and Scherchen/Vienna (Westminster) and enjoy those
performances all the time.  When I tried to acquire the Matacic on cd it
was unavailable until I finally got a copy.
So I'm listening now to this performance
and it is still as splendid as when I first heard it.  Its on a
Supraphon Archive series cd.  Don't know how available this performance
is but every lover of this work should acquire it, if they don't have
it.  The slow movement is more paced than others but it works very well
for me.  From the multitude of available performances, your experiences
(especially your first hearing/recording) would be interesting to hear
about as well as your personal favorites, aside from the ones I
mentioned here.  I might want to go beyond just these three...
Thanks!

That Scherchen is a great one. But my two personal favorites are two
post-war performances by Furtwangler. I'm just not sure how easily
available they are at this point. One is the Dec. 8, '52 BPO
performance (not to be confused with the performance from one night
earlier, which isn't as good). That one has been out on both Tahra and
Music & Arts. The other is a live '53 VPO performance that was part of
the EMI Great Conductors of the Century Furtwangler set. They're
pretty similar. I may give a slight edge overall to the BPO
performance, but the VPO funeral march is arguably a little better.
The tempos are slower than what you're used to, based on the
recordings you now have, but to my ears, the performances never drag.
There is a constant, gradual building of tension that gives a
tremendous amount of impact to each climax.

I also came to the Eroica a little later than some of the other
Beethoven symphonies. But it's been my favorite symphonic work for
many years now.

Barry

[Andrew Rose]

Post by p***@yahoo.com
That Scherchen is a great one. But my two personal favorites are two
post-war performances by Furtwangler. I'm just not sure how easily
available they are at this point. One is the Dec. 8, '52 BPO
performance (not to be confused with the performance from one night
earlier, which isn't as good).

Funnily enough I've just been listening to the recording from 7th
December and enjoyed it very much! Perhaps I should hear the later one
as well now?

[p***@yahoo.com]

Post by Andrew Rose

Post by p***@yahoo.com
That Scherchen is a great one. But my two personal favorites are two
post-war performances by Furtwangler. I'm just not sure how easily
available they are at this point. One is the Dec. 8, '52 BPO
performance (not to be confused with the performance from one night
earlier, which isn't as good).

Funnily enough I've just been listening to the recording from 7th
December and enjoyed it very much! Perhaps I should hear the later one
as well now?
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical

I strongly prefer the later one. If you can find it, I can't recommend
it highly enough.

[Sol L. Siegel]

On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:59:13 +0200, Andrew Rose

Post by Andrew Rose

... my two personal favorites are two post-war performances by
Furtwangler... One is the Dec. 8, '52 BPO performance
(not to be confused with the performance from one night
earlier, which isn't as good).

Funnily enough I've just been listening to the recording from 7th
December and enjoyed it very much! Perhaps I should hear the later one
as well now?

Absolutely. It's towering. I have it on Tahra with the 1954 5 & 6.
M&A issued a double with the same performances, but in ghastly drab
sound. Perhaps some day they'll ask you to rescue it.

M&A also put out a 4-disc set of Mengelberg performances that included
a stirring 1940 Eroica, but the disc source for the finale skipped in
a couple of places and they did nothing to fix it. So when I want to
hear him in the work I have to turn to another Tahra set, which has a
recording that they *think* is from 1942, but they're not certain.
SGF.

My other faves are usual suspects: Toscanini/1953, Furtwangler
12/8/52, Monteux/Concertgebouw, Erich Kleiber/Concertgebouw and
Bernstein/NYPO.

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

[d***@aol.com]

I've been an admirer of Lovro von Matacic ever since I heard a
sensational live performance of Spontini's Fernando Cortez with
Matacic conducting. He was certainly a better and more imaginative
musician than many more marketable podium superstars of the recording
era (Karajan, Solti . . .). I like his recording of the Eroica, and I
like his recordings of the later Bruckner symphonies even more. (I
found a Japanese Supraphon reissue of Matacic’s recording of the
Eroica on eBay.)

I also have the most enormous admiration for Hermann Scherchen: I
think the terrifying live recording of Schoenberg’s Erwartung with
Scherchen and the Bavarian Radio Symphony released on Orfeo is one of
the seven wonders of the world. Schoenberg’s most extreme and
unbridled creation, Erwartung needs exactly what Scherchen had to
offer, but, then, Scherchen was nurtured in the crucible of
Schoenberg’s Viennese expressionism. (I suspect this is both
repertory and a performance of that repertory that would be right up
Mr. Chalmer’s alley.)

My principal objection to Scherchen’s recording of the Eroica -- for
me, a crippling objection -- is that the tempo for the first movement
is simply way too fast. The phrasing appropriate to this movement
requires a certain space in time, and at Scherchen’s ridiculous tempo,
that space is simply unavailable. Nor do I get the least adrenalin
rush from the sheer speed. More’s the pity, because at a somewhat
slower tempo I can only imagine that Scherchen’s performance would
have been one of the great ones.

My favorite recordings of the Eroica remain what they’ve been for some
time. In no particular order here they are:

Concertgebouw, Erich Kleiber (Decca)
Vienna Philharmonic, Erich Kleiber (Decca)
BSO, Charles Munch (RCA)
New York Philharmonic, Bernstein (Columbia, now Sony)

These are not only terrific performances: I think they’re the finest
Beethoven symphony recordings these particular conductors ever made.
Nobody will ever surpass the overwhelming intensity of Bernstein’s
projection of the Marcia funebre, but Bernstein’s NYP recordings of
the other eight symphonies are not remotely on the same exalted level.

Perhaps more surprisingly, with the possible exception of the Decca
recording of the 9th, I don’t think even Kleiber’s other Beethoven
symphony recordings are on the same exalted level as his remarkable
performances of the Eroica. Nor do I prefer one of the studio
recordings to the other, neither the reckless ensemble near-derailing
Concertgebouw performance nor the equally imaginative VPO
performance. It was Beethoven’s style and rhetoric that invented the
Germanic maestro, and these performances are authentic in their
unquestioned belief in and responsiveness to the Eroica in a way that
no skeptical and self-conscious latter day HIPster’s could ever hope
to be. (Nothing lasts forever, and the combination of attitude and
rootedness in the culture that gave rise to that attitude that used to
animate the performance of Beethoven may be gone forever.)

To use the only cliché that will do, Munch brings the kind of fire to
the Eroica that are the hallmark of his Berlioz recordings, although I
think Munch was an even better conductor of Beethoven than of Berlioz,
at least on the day that the BSO recorded the Eroica with him. It was
Berlioz and not Wagner who insisted that Beethoven’s rhythms should be
projected with a certain strictness, that Beethoven’s effects emerged
most clearly and effectively in the context of that strictness, and
I’ll take Munch’s Berliozian Beethoven over Furtwängler’s more
Wagnerian Beethoven any day.

What Munch couldn’t have repressed if he’d wanted to was the
Frenchman’s sense of timbre and texture that he necessarily brought to
every performance he ever gave. In crucial respects, Munch’s approach
to the Eroica is akin to Kleiber’s or Bernstein’s -- his performance
is boldly etched and earnestly projected within reasonably strict
boundaries and without any of the inhibitions masking as scruples that
plague some conductors today -- but he elicits a somewhat brighter,
more transparent, and lighter weight sound from the BSO than a non-
Gallic conductor would. This is the Eroica with a trace of a French
accent, an Eroica related to Delacroix’s Liberty Leading the People.
If you haven’t heard it, you really ought to.

-david gable

[Heck51]

Post by d***@aol.com
I've been an admirer of Lovro von Matacic ever since I heard a
sensational live performance of Spontini's Fernando Cortez with
Matacic conducting.  He was certainly a better and more imaginative
musician than many more marketable podium superstars of the recording
era>>

yes, indeed - a great conductor, sadly under-represented on
discography, and not well known in the US.

my own exposure to Matacic shows him scoring very high in two of the
most recorded orchestral standards -

LvB Eroica, and Bruckner Sym #7.
both wonderful recordings...the competition in these works is firece,
to say the least, but Matacic is right up with the best. his Bruckner
#3 with Philharmonia is very good also...

[Alan Cooper]

Post by d***@aol.com
I've been an admirer of Lovro von Matacic ever since I heard a
sensational live performance of Spontini's Fernando Cortez with
Matacic conducting.

I've been uncomfortable about Matacic (the "von" was an affectation) ever since I
learned about his wartime activities. He and Schwarzkopf (see "Merry Widow") fit
together hand in glove. Matacic was sentenced to death by the Yugoslav communists
for his sympathies, but the sentence was commuted on the condition that he work to
revive musical life in postwar Croatia, which he did. Has there ever been a full
biography of the man in a western European language?

AC

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Alan Cooper

Post by d***@aol.com
I've been an admirer of Lovro von Matacic ever since I heard a
sensational live performance of Spontini's Fernando Cortez with
Matacic conducting.

I've been uncomfortable about Matacic (the "von" was an affectation) ever
since I learned about his wartime activities. He and Schwarzkopf (see
"Merry Widow") fit together hand in glove. Matacic was sentenced to death
by the Yugoslav communists for his sympathies, but the sentence was
commuted on the condition that he work to revive musical life in postwar
Croatia, which he did. Has there ever been a full biography of the man in
a western European language?

Since it's you saying it, I'll take this seriously. Where can I read more?

[Alan Cooper]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Alan Cooper

Post by d***@aol.com
I've been an admirer of Lovro von Matacic ever since I heard a
sensational live performance of Spontini's Fernando Cortez
with Matacic conducting.

I've been uncomfortable about Matacic (the "von" was an
affectation) ever since I learned about his wartime activities.
He and Schwarzkopf (see "Merry Widow") fit together hand in
glove. Matacic was sentenced to death by the Yugoslav
communists for his sympathies, but the sentence was commuted on
the condition that he work to revive musical life in postwar
Croatia, which he did. Has there ever been a full biography of
the man in a western European language?

Since it's you saying it, I'll take this seriously. Where can I read more?

Well, that's the problem. My sources are knowledgeable individuals, but what I have
found in writing, unfortunately, has struck me as less than authoritative (and I know
no Croatian). I would like to know more myself, beyond the facts of his arrest and
the curious circumstances of his release.

AC

[makropulos]

Post by Alan Cooper

Post by d***@aol.com
I've been an admirer of Lovro von Matacic ever since I heard a
sensational live performance of Spontini's Fernando Cortez with
Matacic conducting.

I've been uncomfortable about Matacic (the "von" was an affectation) ever since I
learned about his wartime activities. He and Schwarzkopf (see "Merry Widow") fit
together hand in glove. Matacic was sentenced to death by the Yugoslav communists
for his sympathies, but the sentence was commuted on the condition that he work to
revive musical life in postwar Croatia, which he did. Has there ever been a full
biography of the man in a western European language?
AC

Having made a serious effort to find any substantial biography of
Matacic, I've not managed to do so. Whatever it is he did during WWII
(there's presumably evidence of some kind of collaboration) has to be
seen in the perspective of a man who had a Jewish wife. Without
substantive evidence, I don't think it's necessarily fair to put him
in the same category as Schwarzkopf, though I quite understand your
discomfort. But clearly we need to know more.

Aside from that, I am constantly bowled over by his conducting. I was
lucky enough to see him on several occasions in London (including the
Prom concert that ended with the Bruckner 3 on BBC Legends), and his
recorded legacy is remarkable.

[Alan Cooper]

Post by makropulos

Post by Alan Cooper

Post by d***@aol.com
I've been an admirer of Lovro von Matacic ever since I heard
a sensational live performance of Spontini's Fernando Cortez
with Matacic conducting.

I've been uncomfortable about Matacic (the "von" was an
affectation) ever since I learned about his wartime activities.
He and Schwarzkopf (see "Merry Widow") fit together hand in
glove. Matacic was sentenced to death by the Yugoslav
communists for his sympathies, but the sentence was commuted on
the condition that he work to revive musical life in postwar
Croatia, which he did. Has there ever been a full biography of
the man in a western European language?
AC

Having made a serious effort to find any substantial biography
of Matacic, I've not managed to do so. Whatever it is he did
during WWII (there's presumably evidence of some kind of
collaboration) has to be seen in the perspective of a man who
had a Jewish wife. Without substantive evidence, I don't think
it's necessarily fair to put him in the same category as
Schwarzkopf, though I quite understand your discomfort. But
clearly we need to know more.

You are right that I should not have made the crack about Schwarzkopf, obviously
in another class altogether where collaboration is concerned. It was a not-so-
clever reference to what I would guess is Matacic's best-known recording (unless
it's his Strauss with Schwarzkopf). It's hard to imagine that the director of the
Vienna State Opera from 1942 until the end of the war was politically neutral, but
the purge of the Jews from that institution (including the woman who did the
laundry) had taken place several years before his time. The purge, incidentally,
was documented in an exhibition mounted by the opera earlier this year. See
http://tinyurl.com/4vnvj5 . Remember the old Vanguard collection, "The Virtuoso
Trumpet?" You'll know why I mention it if you follow that link and read the
article.

The lack of information about Matacic (at least in languages that I can read) is
frustrating, isn't it? Most of the brief bios that I've seen (e.g. Grove, Naxos)
make no mention of his post-war difficulties or the reason for them.

AC

[makropulos]

Post by Alan Cooper

Post by makropulos

Post by Alan Cooper

Post by d***@aol.com
I've been an admirer of Lovro von Matacic ever since I heard
a sensational live performance of Spontini's Fernando Cortez
with Matacic conducting.

I've been uncomfortable about Matacic (the "von" was an
affectation) ever since I learned about his wartime activities.
He and Schwarzkopf (see "Merry Widow") fit together hand in
glove. Matacic was sentenced to death by the Yugoslav
communists for his sympathies, but the sentence was commuted on
the condition that he work to revive musical life in postwar
Croatia, which he did. Has there ever been a full biography of
the man in a western European language?
AC

Having made a serious effort to find any substantial biography
of Matacic, I've not managed to do so. Whatever it is he did
during WWII (there's presumably evidence of some kind of
collaboration) has to be seen in the perspective of a man who
had a Jewish wife. Without substantive evidence, I don't think
it's necessarily fair to put him in the same category as
Schwarzkopf, though I quite understand your discomfort. But
clearly we need to know more.

You are right that I should not have made the crack about Schwarzkopf, obviously
in another class altogether where collaboration is concerned. It was a not-so-
clever reference to what I would guess is Matacic's best-known recording (unless
it's his Strauss with Schwarzkopf). It's hard to imagine that the director of the
Vienna State Opera from 1942 until the end of the war was politically neutral, but
the purge of the Jews from that institution (including the woman who did the
laundry) had taken place several years before his time. The purge, incidentally,
was documented in an exhibition mounted by the opera earlier this year. Seehttp://tinyurl.com/4vnvj5. Remember the old Vanguard collection, "The Virtuoso
Trumpet?" You'll know why I mention it if you follow that link and read the
article.
The lack of information about Matacic (at least in languages that I can read) is
frustrating, isn't it? Most of the brief bios that I've seen (e.g. Grove, Naxos)
make no mention of his post-war difficulties or the reason for them.
AC

I totally share your frustration! With any luck some evidence will
start to emerge - and I imagine that Matacic's life is almost
certainly interesting enough to warrant a biography, including
openness about what may well prove to be his darkest years. But even
with musicians about whom there are biographies in Western European
languages, the amount of information about their activities during
WWII is often pitifully small. This includes quite a lot of musicians
in France who were penalized after the war (usually by being banned
from working for a given period of time). I'm not talking about
collaborators here (Germaine Lubin et al.), but soloists who accepted
engagements with the orchestra of Radio Paris and such like. It's a
murky area - and I'm very uneasy about drawing sinister conclusions -
since even though Radio Paris was overseen by the occupying Germans,
it was entirely financed by the French government in Vichy (something
I only discovered last week when I was in Paris talking to a historian
of the radio there).

Back to Matacic. What you say is absolutely correct as far as I can
tell - but we've obviously both been hindered by a lack of accessible
information. I wonder whether there might be something to be gained
from looking at wartime music journals published in Vienna and the
rest of Germany. Next time I have a chance to look at some, I'll see
if there's some evidence to be found there.

[Norman M. Schwartz]

Post by makropulos
Back to Matacic. What you say is absolutely correct as far as I can
tell - but we've obviously both been hindered by a lack of accessible
information. I wonder whether there might be something to be gained
from looking at wartime music journals published in Vienna and the
rest of Germany. Next time I have a chance to look at some, I'll see
if there's some evidence to be found there.

I'm sure you know and/or came across the entry in Wikipedia that he was
sentenced to death by Yugoslavia's Communist govenment. Rightly or wrongly,
one can't help from wondering about the grounds for this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovro_von_Mata%C4%8Di%C4%87

[makropulos]

Post by Norman M. Schwartz

Post by makropulos
Back to Matacic. What you say is absolutely correct as far as I can
tell - but we've obviously both been hindered by a lack of accessible
information. I wonder whether there might be something to be gained
from looking at wartime music journals published in Vienna and the
rest of Germany. Next time I have a chance to look at some, I'll see
if there's some evidence to be found there.

I'm sure you know and/or came across the entry in Wikipedia that he was
sentenced to death by Yugoslavia's Communist govenment. Rightly or wrongly,
one can't help from wondering about the grounds for this.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovro_von_Mata%C4%8Di%C4%87

I very much agree! (and yes, I do know that entry). But what I don't
know is what those grounds actually were. It would be great if
somebody could tell us.

[Alan Cooper]

Post by makropulos

Post by Norman M. Schwartz

Post by makropulos
Back to Matacic. What you say is absolutely correct as far as
I can tell - but we've obviously both been hindered by a lack
of accessible information. I wonder whether there might be
something to be gained from looking at wartime music journals
published in Vienna and the rest of Germany. Next time I have
a chance to look at some, I'll see if there's some evidence
to be found there.

I'm sure you know and/or came across the entry in Wikipedia
that he was sentenced to death by Yugoslavia's Communist
govenment. Rightly or wrongly, one can't help from wondering
about the grounds for
this.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovro_von_Mata%C4%8Di%C4%87

I very much agree! (and yes, I do know that entry). But what I
don't know is what those grounds actually were. It would be
great if somebody could tell us.

Agreed. As I hardly have to point out, being condemned in Tito's Yugoslavia could
have been a badge of honor rather than shame. Similarly, the fact that Matacic
held the rank of colonel in the Ustashe might have reflected his position
(something like master of military music) rather than his ideological commitment.
As my dissertation adviser obm used to say, "Anything is conceivable once someone
has thought of it." :-)

AC

[Walter Traprock]

Post by Norman M. Schwartz

Post by makropulos
Back to Matacic. What you say is absolutely correct as far as I can
tell - but we've obviously both been hindered by a lack of accessible
information. I wonder whether there might be something to be gained
from looking at wartime music journals published in Vienna and the
rest of Germany. Next time I have a chance to look at some, I'll see
if there's some evidence to be found there.

I'm sure you know and/or came across the entry in Wikipedia that he was
sentenced to death by Yugoslavia's Communist govenment. Rightly or wrongly,
one can't help from wondering about the grounds for this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovro_von_Mata%C4%8Di%C4%87

Well, that settles it! Communist Governments never sentence people
to death unless they are sure that it is justified. Have you read
Comrade Stalin's "Short Biography" and Gorki's Belomor yet?

[t]

I've tried a dozen times but cannot get the link below (to the 5th file)
to download. It downloads zero K, then says it's complete:



Disc 2
http://www.mediafire.com/?mzvuttrjmoz

[Kip Williams]

Post by t
I've tried a dozen times but cannot get the link below (to the 5th file)
Disc 2
http://www.mediafire.com/?mzvuttrjmoz

I had small problems with one or two of the files. The computer
(PowerBook G4) said something about it not being a compressed file and
declined to download it. I chose the "open with Stuffit" option instead,
and it did what it was supposed to without further grumbling.

Kip W

[t]

Post by Kip Williams

Post by t
I've tried a dozen times but cannot get the link below (to the 5th file)
Disc 2
http://www.mediafire.com/?mzvuttrjmoz

I had small problems with one or two of the files. The computer
(PowerBook G4) said something about it not being a compressed file and
declined to download it. I chose the "open with Stuffit" option instead,
and it did what it was supposed to without further grumbling.
Kip W

The first time I downloaded it, it was incomplete, and would not open
with Stuffit or anything.

Since then, I've tried (literally) a dozen times, and again just now,
and each time it download a file that is Zero K in size, and claims it
is complete.

[Alan Cooper]

Post by t

Post by Kip Williams

Post by t
I've tried a dozen times but cannot get the link below (to the
5th file) to download. It downloads zero K, then says it's
Disc 2
http://www.mediafire.com/?mzvuttrjmoz

I had small problems with one or two of the files. The computer
(PowerBook G4) said something about it not being a compressed
file and declined to download it. I chose the "open with
Stuffit" option instead, and it did what it was supposed to
without further grumbling.
Kip W

The first time I downloaded it, it was incomplete, and would not
open with Stuffit or anything.
Since then, I've tried (literally) a dozen times, and again just
now, and each time it download a file that is Zero K in size,
and claims it is complete.

Did you clear your browser cache? The browser may "think" you've already
downloaded the file.

AC

[Sacqueboutier]

Post by Alan Cooper

Post by t

Post by Kip Williams

Post by t
I've tried a dozen times but cannot get the link below (to the
5th file) to download. It downloads zero K, then says it's
Disc 2
http://www.mediafire.com/?mzvuttrjmoz

I had small problems with one or two of the files. The computer
(PowerBook G4) said something about it not being a compressed
file and declined to download it. I chose the "open with
Stuffit" option instead, and it did what it was supposed to
without further grumbling.
Kip W

The first time I downloaded it, it was incomplete, and would not
open with Stuffit or anything.
Since then, I've tried (literally) a dozen times, and again just
now, and each time it download a file that is Zero K in size,
and claims it is complete.

Did you clear your browser cache? The browser may "think" you've already
downloaded the file.
AC

Please see REPOST of Scarlatti files.

[D***@aol.com]

On Sep 16, 7:57 pm, "***@aol.com" <***@aol.com> wrote:

[ much editing]

Post by d***@aol.com
My principal objection to Scherchen’s recording of the Eroica -- for
me, a crippling objection -- is that the tempo for the first movement
is simply way too fast.  The phrasing appropriate to this movement
requires a certain space in time, and at Scherchen’s ridiculous tempo,
that space is simply unavailable.  Nor do I get the least adrenalin
rush from the sheer speed.  More’s the pity, because at a somewhat
slower tempo I can only imagine that Scherchen’s performance would
have been one of the great ones.

david gable

That's Scherchen's second recording of the Eroica. The stereo one.
The mono predecessor, from about 1952, has a considerably slower first
movement. In fact, that one is pretty close to the standard tempo set
by most pre-HIP conductors.

What's amazing about the two versions is that Scherchen played the
first movement repeat in the stereo version, omitted it in the earlier
mono, and -- as Eric Grunin's website shows -- the timings for the
movement in the two recordings are almost identical. He took the
stereo version so much faster that including the repeated music made
virtually no difference in the total timing.

That kind of variability distinguished most if not all of
Scherchen's remakes of works. I collected his recordings, and it could
be almost bizarre. Remakes could be counted upon to be frequently
different from what had gone before, sometimes wildly so. Especially
regarding tempo. I recall that his stereo remake of the Beethoven
Pastoral also had a first movement that was jet-propelled, unlike the
earlier mono.

Second: bravo about your comments regarding Munch's BSO Eroica.
Total agreement!

Don Tait

[Curtis Croulet]

I recall that his stereo remake of the Beethoven Pastoral also had > a
first movement that was jet-propelled, unlike the earlier mono.

Another case where he was trying to follow the metronome marks. Not only
that, but he omits the 1st mvt repeat and scherzo repeat. Even that
notorious repeat-hater, Bruno Walter, played the scherzo repeat. Your
favored Charles Munch also liked to skip seemingly-invulnerable repeats like
that in the Pastoral scherzo.

[D***@aol.com]

I recall that his stereo remake of the Beethoven Pastoral also had > a
first movement that was jet-propelled, unlike the earlier mono.

Another case where he was trying to follow the metronome marks. �Not only
that, but he omits the 1st mvt repeat and scherzo repeat. �Even that
notorious repeat-hater, Bruno Walter, played the scherzo repeat. �Your
favored Charles Munch also liked to skip seemingly-invulnerable repeats like
that in the Pastoral scherzo.

A tardy reply.

Yes indeed, Munch often skipped repeats. Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven,
et cetera works seldom if ever had them. He made cuts, too. I have a
tape of Nielsen's Fifth Symphony with Munch/BSO in which a chunk of
the finale is missing. The same for parts of Liszt's Faust Symphony.

Nevertheless: he's one of my favorites for sure.

Don Tait

[Kevin P. Mostyn]

Don,

That performance of the Faust Symphony is an alternate version, without
vocals. It's a authentic version, not Munch's. Are you saying that Munch cut
that version?
--
Kevin Mostyn
---------------------
my real e-mail address is my first name at my last name dot com

I recall that his stereo remake of the Beethoven Pastoral also had > a
first movement that was jet-propelled, unlike the earlier mono.

Another case where he was trying to follow the metronome marks. ?Not only
that, but he omits the 1st mvt repeat and scherzo repeat. ?Even that
notorious repeat-hater, Bruno Walter, played the scherzo repeat. ?Your
favored Charles Munch also liked to skip seemingly-invulnerable repeats like
that in the Pastoral scherzo.

A tardy reply.

Yes indeed, Munch often skipped repeats. Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven,
et cetera works seldom if ever had them. He made cuts, too. I have a
tape of Nielsen's Fifth Symphony with Munch/BSO in which a chunk of
the finale is missing. The same for parts of Liszt's Faust Symphony.

Nevertheless: he's one of my favorites for sure.

Don Tait

["M.W. Kluge"]

Post by Kevin P. Mostyn
Don,
That performance of the Faust Symphony is an alternate version, without
vocals. It's a authentic version, not Munch's. Are you saying that Munch cut
that version?
--
Kevin Mostyn
---------------------
my real e-mail address is my first name at my last name dot com
  A tardy reply.
  Yes indeed, Munch often skipped repeats. Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven,
et cetera works seldom if ever had them. He made cuts, too. I have a
tape of Nielsen's Fifth Symphony with Munch/BSO in which a chunk of
the finale is missing. The same for parts of Liszt's Faust Symphony.
  Nevertheless: he's one of my favorites for sure.
  Don Tait

Liszt did indeed provide an alternate ending to the Faust Symphony
that omitted the vocal parts. It is inserted in the score after
letter Zz in the final movement. Mitropoulos played the alternate
ending in his 1950 film, and Argenta recorded the same version. What
Don is referring to is the numerous *additional* cuts in Munch's
performance: in the third movement, from the second bar after F to 3
bars after I; letter K to letter L; letter Y to 6 bars before Ee;
letter Ii to letter Jj; another 8 bar cut before Ll; a ten-bar cut
between Nn and Oo; another cut from 4 after Oo to 5 after Pp; and an
8-bar cut before Vv. None of these cuts are authorized in the score.

Mark

[d***@aol.com]

Post by D***@aol.com
That's Scherchen's second recording of the Eroica. The stereo one.
The mono predecessor, from about 1952, has a considerably slower first
movement. In fact, that one is pretty close  to the standard tempo set
by most pre-HIP conductors.

Has Scherchen's earlier monaural recording of the Eroica ever made it
to compact disc?

Post by D***@aol.com
  Second: bravo about your comments regarding Munch's BSO Eroica.
Total agreement!

Glad you liked it: that was one of the more "purple passages" I've
posted here.

-david gable

[D***@aol.com]

�> That's Scherchen's second recording of the Eroica. The stereo one.

Post by D***@aol.com
The mono predecessor, from about 1952, has a considerably slower first
movement. In fact, that one is pretty close �to the standard tempo set
by most pre-HIP conductors.

Has Scherchen's earlier monaural recording of the Eroica ever made it
to compact disc?

Post by D***@aol.com
� Second: bravo about your comments regarding Munch's BSO Eroica.
Total agreement!

Glad you liked it: �that was one of the more "purple passages" I've
posted here.
-david gable

Scherchen: I don't know whether the mono Eroica (or Pastoral, for
that matter) have been put on compact disc. Might Tahra have published
them?

Munch: I didn't consider your post "purple prose" *at all!* I loved
what you wrote. He was too often dismissed during the 1950s as unable
to conduct the German/Austrian repertoire effectively. As far as I was/
am concerned, it was all silly bias: he was French, so he can't have
done that repertoire properly. But it was stupid. Tapes of live BSO
performances demonstrate that Munch was not only a good Mozart
interpreter, but a great one. The same for Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert
(and his Victor recording of the Unfinished is one of the great ones),
Brahms, and so on. His live performances of Beethoven 9th are great,
and his Victor recording is superb too.

Charles Munch was one of the two or three greatest conductors I ever
heard or saw, so I had to vent. Thanks.

Don Tait

[Curtis Croulet]

Post by d***@aol.com
Has Scherchen's earlier monaural recording of the Eroica ever
made it to compact disc?

It's in a complete set of The Nine on Archipel.

[Eric Grunin]

 > That's Scherchen's second recording of the Eroica. The stereo one.

Post by D***@aol.com
The mono predecessor, from about 1952, has a considerably slower first
movement. In fact, that one is pretty close  to the standard tempo set
by most pre-HIP conductors.

Has Scherchen's earlier monaural recording of the Eroica ever made it
to compact disc?

There are actually *two* mono Eroicas from Scherchen, and both have
made it to CD at some point, the first (12/50 or 1/51) on Tahra TAH
283/286, the second on Archipel ARPCD 0201. I can't claim enthusiasm
for either, but your taste may differ.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

[Curtis Croulet]

There are actually *two* mono Eroicas from Scherchen, and both > have made
it to CD at some point, the first (12/50 or 1/51) on
Tahra TAH 283/286, the second on Archipel ARPCD 0201. I
can't claim enthusiasm for either, but your taste may differ.

Which one is on LP on Westminster WL 5216? It has a charcoal drawing of a
scowling Beethoven on the cover.

[Curtis Croulet]

Post by Curtis Croulet
Which one is on LP on Westminster WL 5216? It has a charcoal drawing of a
scowling Beethoven on the cover.

1953 according to Eric's discography.

[Curtis Croulet]

My principal objection to Scherchen’s recording of the Eroica -- > for me,
a crippling objection -- is that the tempo for the first
movement is simply way too fast. The phrasing appropriate to
this movement requires a certain space in time, and at Scherchen’s >
ridiculous tempo, that space is simply unavailable.

He was evidently trying to observe the metronome mark. Numerous recent
recordings have followed suit. You're not obligated to like the result, of
course.

[d***@aol.com]

[Scherchen] was evidently trying to observe the metronome mark.  Numerous recent
recordings have followed suit.  You're not obligated to like the result, of
course.

Or to have the least confidence in Beethoven's metronome marks.

-david gable

[Curtis Croulet]

Post by d***@aol.com
Or to have the least confidence in Beethoven's metronome marks.

Most of them work well. So we're left with the interesting proposition that
whatever caused the allegedly faulty metronome marks (deafness, bad
metronome, marks derived from mental runthrough or playing at the piano --
whatever) was operative only occasionally.

[Bob Lombard]

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by d***@aol.com
Or to have the least confidence in Beethoven's metronome marks.

Most of them work well. So we're left with the interesting proposition that
whatever caused the allegedly faulty metronome marks (deafness, bad
metronome, marks derived from mental runthrough or playing at the piano --
whatever) was operative only occasionally.

Yeah. What adds to the confusion is the (to me strong) evidence that he
could 'hear' what he was trying to do in the solo and chamber music from
Op. 90 and after. He got that stuff right....

bl

[Curtis Croulet]

Post by Bob Lombard
Yeah. What adds to the confusion is the (to me strong) evidence that he
could 'hear' what he was trying to do in the solo and chamber music from
Op. 90 and after. He got that stuff right....

"Correct" or "Beethoven's intention" or whatever, I confess that I don't
like a superfast tempo for the Eroica's 1st mvt. Toscanini and the later
Karajans are fast enough for me. But maybe I'm just imprinted on the old
recordings. It's possible that I learned this music "wrong" and can't
overcome it.

[William Sommerwerck]

My first recording -- the first time I heard the Eroica -- was Barbirolli's
classic disaster, as recommended by Martin Bookspan. Even though I'd never
heard the work, I could tell Something Was Wrong. Fortunately, Barbirolli's
well-deserved reputation was not made on Beethoven symphonies.

I've heard very few performances that even approach "satisfying". The
closest is, yes, Lenny's with the NYPO. The first movement is very much "con
fuoco", and he absolutely nails the second. It is an anguished outpouring
(something Lenny was good at). The last two movements are merely okay.

[Matthew Silverstein]

Post by William Sommerwerck
My first recording -- the first time I heard the Eroica -- was Barbirolli's
classic disaster, as recommended by Martin Bookspan. Even though I'd never
heard the work, I could tell Something Was Wrong. Fortunately, Barbirolli's
well-deserved reputation was not made on Beethoven symphonies.

Barbirolli's BBCSO Eroica on Dutton is easily one of my favorites.

Matty

[Dan Amodeo]

Beethoven's third symphony is my favorite piece of music.

My favorite recording by far is Savall, unfortunately out of print.

I'm not sue what my second favorite is, but it's one of these: Paavo Jarvi,
Bruggen, Scherchen, or maybe even Herreweghe.

I also like very much Dohnanyi and Harnoncourt.

I just got Herreweghe, and I've listened to it only a few times. I probably
like it more than Dohnanyi and Harnoncourt, I might like it as much as Jarvi
or Bruggen or Scherchen, I probably don't like it as much as Savall.

I don't just enjoy all seven of these, I enjoy them very much.

I had one or two other recordings of this symphony that I liked, but not
very much, so I gave them away.

Dan Amodeo

[Gregory Arkadin]

Post by Dan Amodeo
Beethoven's third symphony is my favorite piece of music.
My favorite recording by far is Savall, unfortunately out of print.
I'm not sue what my second favorite is, but it's one of these: Paavo Jarvi,
Bruggen, Scherchen, or maybe even Herreweghe.
I also like very much Dohnanyi and Harnoncourt.
I just got Herreweghe, and I've listened to it only a few times. I probably
like it more than Dohnanyi and Harnoncourt, I might like it as much as Jarvi
or Bruggen or Scherchen, I probably don't like it as much as Savall.
I don't just enjoy all seven of these, I enjoy them very much.
I had one or two other recordings of this symphony that I liked, but not
very much, so I gave them away.
Dan Amodeo

The Savall's one of my favorites as well. Fortunately, Savall is
reissuing his Naive/Astree recordings on his Alia Vox label, so I'm
sure it's just a matter of time before this one is available again.

[Thomas Wood]

Savall.

Tom Wood

[Heck51]

It wasn't until my mid 20's that I first heard the 3rd.  It was given to
me by a friend.  It was the Artia lp with von Matacic/Czech
Philharmonic.  I loved it so much, I kept it until it was worn out and
never got a cance to replace it. >>

the Matacic/CzPO [3/59] is indeed a wonderful performance of Eroica...

so is the Reiner/CSO.

add in Toscanini/NBC/1949, and you have my favorites list....

[P.Paquin]

Prefer the 1953 with Toscanini.
--
Continuous, non-stop internet broadcast of 5+ hours of HAYDN SYMPHONIES
from Haydn House
Please click-> http://www.live365.com/stations/ppaquin

It wasn't until my mid 20's that I first heard the 3rd. It was given to
me by a friend. It was the Artia lp with von Matacic/Czech
Philharmonic. I loved it so much, I kept it until it was worn out and
never got a cance to replace it. >>

the Matacic/CzPO [3/59] is indeed a wonderful performance of Eroica...

so is the Reiner/CSO.

add in Toscanini/NBC/1949, and you have my favorites list....

[j***@aol.com]

Post by P.Paquin
Prefer the 1953 with Toscanini.

You forgot to mention the Koussevitzky!

-Jeff

[D***@aol.com]

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by P.Paquin
Prefer the 1953 with Toscanini.

You forgot to mention the Koussevitzky!
-Jeff

First, total agreement with Pierre about the 1953 Toscanini. Earlier
versions by him had slower and perhaps more powerful second movements
-- the 1939 NBC, and especially the circa 1935 Stockholm PO
performance (at about 17+ minutes). But 1953 is transcendent, for me.

And yes to Jeff: Koussevitzky! BSO for me, not the earlier LPO
version. I'm a long-time Koussevitzky nut, but my devotion to the BSO
version isn't just that of a fan. I think that is one of the great
Eroicas. I love it intensely. If I had to choose only one to keep,
that might be it.

Don Tait

[Curtis Croulet]

And yes to Jeff: Koussevitzky! BSO for me.

I learned the Eroica first from an anonymous recording recently identified
by Mr. Grunin as Ignaz Neumark and (IIRC) the Utrecht Philharmonic (or
"Symphony"). Then I found Koussevitzky on a Camden LP in a record bin at a
drugstore. The Neumark recording actually has some interesting moments, but
otherwise there's no comparison between it and the overwhelming (for me)
effect of Koussevitzky's BSO recording. I was 15 at the time, and my
life-long love affair with this piece started then (it's my favorite piece
of music). WRT Toscanini in this piece, I'll go with 1939. The 1953
performance takes too long to warm up.

[j***@aol.com]

Post by D***@aol.com

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by P.Paquin
Prefer the 1953 with Toscanini.

You forgot to mention the Koussevitzky!
-Jeff

First, total agreement with Pierre about the 1953 Toscanini. Earlier
versions by him had slower and perhaps more powerful second movements
-- the 1939 NBC, and especially the circa 1935 Stockholm PO
performance (at about 17+ minutes). But 1953 is transcendent, for me.
And yes to Jeff: Koussevitzky! BSO for me, not the earlier LPO
version. I'm a long-time Koussevitzky nut, but my devotion to the BSO
version isn't just that of a fan. I think that is one of the great
Eroicas. I love it intensely. If I had to choose only one to keep,
that might be it.
Don Tait

Yes! The BSO version--I haven't actually heard the earlier LPO
recording. It is certainly worthy of your fanatical devotion.

I'm not sure which Toscanini recording I like best. I've never thought
to compare the 1939 and 1953. Perhaps in an idle moment....

[D***@aol.com]

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by P.Paquin
Prefer the 1953 with Toscanini.

You forgot to mention the Koussevitzky!
-Jeff

[snip]

Post by j***@aol.com

� And yes to Jeff: Koussevitzky! BSO for me, not the earlier LPO
version. I'm a long-time Koussevitzky nut, but my devotion to the BSO
version isn't just that of a fan. I think that is one of the great
Eroicas. I love it intensely. If I had to choose only one to keep,
that might be it.
� Don Tait

Yes! The BSO version--I haven't actually heard the earlier LPO
recording. It �is certainly worthy of your fanatical devotion.

The LPO version isn't very important, in my view. The interpretation
has the same outlines and characteristics as the circa 1946 BSO one,
but the 1934 Abbey Road sonics are rather dead and drab and can't
compare with those of the later version, with the glory and tonal
color of Symphony Hall acoustics. Nor does the LPO respond to
Koussevitzky with the electricity of the BSO (but the drab 1934 sound
might contribute to that impression).
The same applies to Koussevitzky's LPO set of the Beethoven 5th; the
1944 BSO remake is much more satisfying (it's a favorite of mine). The
valuable Koussevitzky/LPO recordings (all from 1934) are the finale
only of Haydn's Symphony no. 88 (the filler for the last 78 side of
Beethoven 5 and all that was recorded) and Mozart's Symphony no. 40,
Koussevitzky's only recording of the work. The first movement must be
heard to be believed: he begins at an extremely slow tempo, then
speeds up radically after a minute or so. When the repeat arrives, the
same thing happens. It could be the most radically personal (some
might say outrageous or crazy) version of the movement ever recorded.

All of the 1934 Koussevitzky/LPO recordings were issued on Biddulph
CD 029-30 in 1995 in transfers by Mark O-T. It also contained
Sibelius's 7th Symphony with Koussevitzky/BBC SO from 1933.

Don Tait

[Thomas Liebert]

Post by D***@aol.com

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by P.Paquin
Prefer the 1953 with Toscanini.

You forgot to mention the Koussevitzky!
-Jeff

[snip]

Post by j***@aol.com

� And yes to Jeff: Koussevitzky! BSO for me, not the earlier LPO
version. I'm a long-time Koussevitzky nut, but my devotion to the BSO
version isn't just that of a fan. I think that is one of the great
Eroicas. I love it intensely. If I had to choose only one to keep,
that might be it.
� Don Tait

Yes! The BSO version--I haven't actually heard the earlier LPO
recording. It �is certainly worthy of your fanatical devotion.

The LPO version isn't very important, in my view. The interpretation
has the same outlines and characteristics as the circa 1946 BSO one,
but the 1934 Abbey Road sonics are rather dead and drab and can't
compare with those of the later version, with the glory and tonal
color of Symphony Hall acoustics. Nor does the LPO respond to
Koussevitzky with the electricity of the BSO (but the drab 1934 sound
might contribute to that impression).
The same applies to Koussevitzky's LPO set of the Beethoven 5th; the
1944 BSO remake is much more satisfying (it's a favorite of mine). The
valuable Koussevitzky/LPO recordings (all from 1934) are the finale
only of Haydn's Symphony no. 88 (the filler for the last 78 side of
Beethoven 5 and all that was recorded) and Mozart's Symphony no. 40,
Koussevitzky's only recording of the work. The first movement must be
heard to be believed: he begins at an extremely slow tempo, then
speeds up radically after a minute or so. When the repeat arrives, the
same thing happens. It could be the most radically personal (some
might say outrageous or crazy) version of the movement ever recorded.
All of the 1934 Koussevitzky/LPO recordings were issued on Biddulph
CD 029-30 in 1995 in transfers by Mark O-T. It also contained
Sibelius's 7th Symphony with Koussevitzky/BBC SO from 1933.
Don Tait

I would like to second Don's positive comments on the Koussevitzky/BSO
recordings of the Beethoven 3rd & 5th Symphonies.

I have the 3rd in an outstanding transfer by M O-T on a Pearl CD which I
highly recommend.

I have the 5th in an excellent transfer on LYS 383. AFAIK, this is the
only CD transfer of the BSO 5th ever made. LYS doesn't say what their
source was, but I suspect they used a Camden LP in pristine condition. I
say that because the CD also contains the 1947 Egmont Overture that was
included on the Camden LP. These two recordings sound very similar on
the CD and also sound different from the other LYS Koussevitzky
transfers taken from 78s (where they *do* identify their sources.)

Regards,
Thomas Liebert

[BrianK]

Post by Thomas Liebert

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by D***@aol.com

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by P.Paquin
Prefer the 1953 with Toscanini.

You forgot to mention the Koussevitzky!
-Jeff

  [snip]

Post by j***@aol.com

Post by D***@aol.com
And yes to Jeff: Koussevitzky! BSO for me, not the earlier LPO
version. I'm a long-time Koussevitzky nut, but my devotion to the BSO
version isn't just that of a fan. I think that is one of the great
Eroicas. I love it intensely. If I had to choose only one to keep,
that might be it.
Don Tait

Yes! The BSO version--I haven't actually heard the earlier LPO
recording. It is certainly worthy of your fanatical devotion.

  The LPO version isn't very important, in my view. The interpretation
has the same outlines and characteristics as the circa 1946 BSO one,
but the 1934 Abbey Road sonics are rather dead and drab and can't
compare with those of the later version, with the glory and tonal
color of Symphony Hall acoustics. Nor does the LPO respond to
Koussevitzky with the electricity of the BSO (but the drab 1934 sound
might contribute to that impression).
The same applies to Koussevitzky's LPO set of the Beethoven 5th; the
1944 BSO remake is much more satisfying (it's a favorite of mine). The
valuable Koussevitzky/LPO recordings (all from 1934) are the finale
only of Haydn's Symphony no. 88 (the filler for the last 78 side of
Beethoven 5 and all that was recorded) and Mozart's Symphony no. 40,
Koussevitzky's only recording of the work. The first movement must be
heard to be believed: he begins at an extremely slow tempo, then
speeds up radically after a minute or so. When the repeat arrives, the
same thing happens. It could be the most radically personal (some
might say outrageous or crazy) version of the movement ever recorded.
  All of the 1934 Koussevitzky/LPO recordings were issued on Biddulph
CD 029-30 in 1995 in transfers by Mark O-T. It also contained
Sibelius's 7th Symphony with Koussevitzky/BBC SO from 1933.
  Don Tait

I would like to second Don's positive comments on the Koussevitzky/BSO
recordings of the Beethoven 3rd & 5th Symphonies.
I have the 3rd in an outstanding transfer by M O-T on a Pearl CD which I
highly recommend.
I have the 5th in an excellent transfer on LYS 383. AFAIK, this is the
only CD transfer of the BSO 5th ever made. LYS doesn't say what their
source was, but I suspect they used a Camden LP in pristine condition. I
say that because the CD also contains the 1947 Egmont Overture that was
included on the Camden LP. These two recordings sound very similar on
the CD and also sound different from the other LYS Koussevitzky
transfers taken from 78s (where they *do* identify their sources.)
Regards,
Thomas Liebert- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

This whole series of posts has been really fascinating, and
informative too because some posters have mentioned a recorded
performances of the Eroica that I did not know about. The posts surely
demonstrate that a work of this stature can allow a very wide variety
of styles and interpretations. It is one of my favourite symphonies
but I do not have an outright favourite performance, although I
probably listen to the (New) Philharmonia Orchestra/Klemperer EMI
stereo recording more than most. Another favourite which I do not
think has been mentioned is the Chamber Orchestra of Europe/
Harnoncourt recording. Undoubtedly the most memorable performance I
have heard (recorded or live) was given here in Adelaide, South
Australia and conducted by visiting pianist Steven Kovacevich. It was
incisive, deeply felt, with subtle rubato and balancing throughout,
and not too fast.

Brian K

[Curtis Croulet]

Post by BrianK
Undoubtedly the most memorable performance I
have heard (recorded or live) was given here in Adelaide, South
Australia and conducted by visiting pianist Steven Kovacevich. It > was
incisive, deeply felt, with subtle rubato and balancing
throughout, and not too fast.

Then it must be much better than the Kovacevich recording of the Eroica that
was issued by BBC Music a number of years back. That one is a real snoozer.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by P.Paquin
Prefer the 1953 with Toscanini.

As do I.

[O]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by P.Paquin
Prefer the 1953 with Toscanini.

As do I.

Ditto.

-Owen

[Heck51]

Prefer the 1953 with Toscanini.>>

the '53 Eroica is a great performance, very fine...but '49 is
cosmic....

[d***@aol.com]

FWIW, there are a couple of improvised Von Matacic discographies in
this thread, including one by our friend Makropolus that's longer than
the OED:

http://tinyurl.com/6hxlkh

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_thread/thread/86e9c3eed651480f/8383e93632a33980?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=matacic+makropulos#8383e93632a33980


-david gable

[MELMOTH]

Ce cher mammifère du nom de Lawrence Chalmers nous susurrait, le
mercredi 17/09/2008, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu
sales quand même, et dans le message

Post by Lawrence Chalmers
It wasn't until my mid 20's that I first heard the 3rd. It was given
to me by a friend. It was the Artia lp with von Matacic/Czech
Philharmonic. I loved it so much, I kept it until it was worn out
and never got a cance to replace it. I haven't heard that many
since, but I do have Reiner/CSO and Scherchen/Vienna (Westminster)
and enjoy those performances all the time. When I tried to acquire
the Matacic on cd it was unavailable until I finally got a copy.

*Monteux* (Concertgebouw - Philips)
*Monteux* (Wiener - Decca)
*Furtwängler* (Wiener - Dacapo - 1944)
*Reiner* (RCA - Chicago)
*Scherchen* (MCA) - *Scherchen* (Archipel)
*Toscanini* (Naxos - 1939)

And so many others !...

[M***@gmail.com]

The Eroica was there for me in the beginning- my father put a lot of
music into my skull before I was old enough to know it. I listened to
it occasionally even during the years when my main diet was rock and
popular music and I had zero interest in buying anything classical.

I wish I knew what recording I had on that cassette. I often wonder
if it was Kleiber, as his recordings always sound to me exactly like
what I would expect (but that's a bad thing).

I have a lot of them, and too many that I've only listened to once or
twice. Any recommendation I make is undermined by my lack of
fidelity, and even occasional boredom (burnout happens!) with the
largest niche of my collection. But a few stand out, and I thin
kwould hold their own against any other performance:

Monteux/Concertgebouw - you've gotta love the sound of van Beinum's
orchestra- punchy and vigorous, wrapped up in that perfect acoustic
Coates/LSO - did he ever make a recording of anything that wasn't
perfectly alive?
Klemperer/DRSO - I'm fairly imprinted on the Philharmonia mono one,
and this is even better
Bruggen/O18thC - the DVD (or laserdsic, in my case) was filmed in the
Concertgebouw. It is quite similar to his CD release, but I like the
sound better

My most recent Eroica thrill is Walter/Philadelphia, especially for
what he does with the funeral march. This is easily the one movement
where I am most likely to get bored, but Walter makes the movement
less a meditation than a trenchant struggle. And the rest of the
performance is quite excellent.

I'm sure I'm leaving something out. Oh, like my most perverted
thrill, Giulini/LAPO. Seems like everyone counts that one as a near-
miss, but I really liked it last I heard it.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

I'm sure I'm leaving something out. Oh, like my most perverted thrill,
Giulini/LAPO. Seems like everyone counts that one as a near-miss, but I
really liked it last I heard it.

It's ponderous, but a welcome souvenir of the time I heard them play it, on
tour to San Jose of all places.

[M***@gmail.com]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

I'm sure I'm leaving something out.  Oh, like my most perverted thrill,
Giulini/LAPO.  Seems like everyone counts that one as a near-miss, but I
really liked it last I heard it.

It's ponderous, but a welcome souvenir of the time I heard them play it, on
tour to San Jose of all places.

I swear I'm going to start mentioning your attendance at that concert
whenever I recommend that recording, as I swear you always mention it
without fail! Haha- must have been a stellar concert. Was there
another piece played?

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by M***@gmail.com

typed in news:584ac708-3c35-4cdc-

I'm sure I'm leaving something out.  Oh, like my most perverted
thrill, Giulini/LAPO.  Seems like everyone counts that one as a
near-miss, but I really liked it last I heard it.

It's ponderous, but a welcome souvenir of the time I heard them play
it, on tour to San Jose of all places.

I swear I'm going to start mentioning your attendance at that concert
whenever I recommend that recording, as I swear you always mention it
without fail! Haha- must have been a stellar concert. Was there
another piece played?

Weber "Freischütz" Overture, Hindemith Symphony "Mathis der Maler," if
memory serves.

[Curtis Croulet]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Hindemith Symphony "Mathis der Maler,"

Now, that would be interesting to hear!

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Hindemith Symphony "Mathis der Maler,"

Now, that would be interesting to hear!

It had lots of wrong notes from the winds, but was beautiful.

He conducts a 1974 performance in the BSO's one and only "big box" to date.

[Steve de Mena]

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Hindemith Symphony "Mathis der Maler,"

Now, that would be interesting to hear!

Giulini would also perform the Hindemith "Concert Music for Strings
and Brass" now and then.

Steve

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Steve de Mena

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Hindemith Symphony "Mathis der Maler,"

Now, that would be interesting to hear!

Giulini would also perform the Hindemith "Concert Music for Strings
and Brass" now and then.

Including a 1969 performance with the New Philharmonia Orchestra which has
been released by BBC Legends:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000I2IS7M

[Curtis Croulet]

Post by M***@gmail.com
My most recent Eroica thrill is Walter/Philadelphia

Where did you find this?

[D***@aol.com]

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by M***@gmail.com
My most recent Eroica thrill is Walter/Philadelphia

Where did you find this?
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33�27'59"N, 117�05'53"W

I second the question. Walter did not record the Eroica commercially
with the Philadelphia Orchestra. He did the Beethoven Pastoral with
them (plus the Schubert Unfinished). His two mono recordings of the
Eroica were with the NY Philharmonic, in 1941 and 1949.

Don Tait

[M***@gmail.com]

  I second the question. Walter did not record the Eroica commercially
with the Philadelphia Orchestra. He did the Beethoven Pastoral with
them (plus the Schubert Unfinished). His two mono recordings of the
Eroica were with the NY Philharmonic, in 1941 and 1949.
  Don Tait

I meant the '41 NYPO recording. I can't even say how I misremembered
this, as the UA box has no Philly in it, from what I see online. I
need a funeral march for my brain, I think. Lack of sleep, gentlemen,
my apologies.

Here's the cause of my general befuddlement:
Loading Image...
http://homepage.mac.com/msraw/Zach/PhotoAlbum62.html

[M***@gmail.com]

Post by Curtis Croulet

Post by M***@gmail.com
My most recent Eroica thrill is Walter/Philadelphia

Where did you find this?
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W

It's from the complete NYP/Philadelphoa BEethoven recordings on either
M&A or Untied Archives. I have the latter because their product is
first-rate and the price is half that of the M&A set. Not available in
the US, as you might expect.
http://www.crotchet.co.uk/UAR019.html
http://www.musicandarts.com/CDpages/CD1137hc.html

[Curtis Croulet]

The M&A set has two recordings (1941 & 1949) of the Eroica with the NY Phil,
not Philadelphia. I haven't seen the UA set. A Walter Eroica from
Philadelphia would be a major find.

[J.Martin]

I wish I knew what recording I had on that cassette.  

I was wondering the same thing about my first Eroica. It was a budget
cassette bought decades ago, and I've long since lost it and forgotten
who the performers were. I remember being confused by the music--the
opening theme seemed so nondescript, the development incomprehensible
to me rock-schooled ears. It did not impress me nearly as much as the
5th or 9th, but there was something about it...

I have a lot of them, and too many that I've only listened to once or
twice.  Any recommendation I make is undermined by my lack of
fidelity

Well put. I feel the same way--and not just about the Eroica. It's
probably my favorite piece of symphonic music and the one which I have
the most versions of, so when I decide to listen to a recording, I'm
rarely thinking "what the absolute best" or "what would I recommend to
someone else" but more "what version have I not heard in a while, that
suite my particular mood today?" Which leads to, as you put it, a
lack of fidelity. For example, the first time I listened to Jarvi, I
was distracted and it didn't make much impression. The second time, I
was ready for a very fast chamber version, and I liked it quite a
lot. I wanted to go back to it, to check my impressions, and on third
listen found it rather soul-less and mechanical. So... my opinions
can change with the wind.

FWIW, the versions that have most consistently been among my favorites
would be Bernstein/NY, Szell (the live '67 or '70 if you can get them,
but the studio will do), the '39 Toscanini, E. Kleiber (either) and
the mono Klemps.

Others that are high on my list lately are new live Abbado (which was
available on DVD but now is on a CD set), the period instrument
version by van Immerseel and Anima Eterna, abd Munch. But there are
so many others!

Monteux/Concertgebouw - you've gotta love the sound of van Beinum's
orchestra- punchy and vigorous, wrapped up in that perfect acoustic
Klemperer/DRSO - I'm fairly imprinted on the Philharmonia mono one,
and this is even better

I will need to check these out.

My most recent Eroica thrill is Walter/Philadelphia

I didn't know he did one in Philly. What label is this on?

JM

[Michael Schaffer]

I'm sure I'm leaving something out.  Oh, like my most perverted
thrill, Giulini/LAPO.  Seems like everyone counts that one as a near-
miss, but I really liked it last I heard it.

There is nothing "perverted about this recording. It is great, honest
and completely coherent music making, despite the slow tempi. Which
makes it so fascinating. There is no extraneous concept that Giulini
came up with and superimposed on the music, he really just develops
the whole interpretation by giving each note the weight and space he
feels it needs. Pretty amazing, although my own ideal interpretation
of this symphony would be almost at the opposite end of the
interpretive spectrum.

[Bob Harper]

Post by Michael Schaffer

Post by M***@gmail.com
I'm sure I'm leaving something out. Oh, like my most perverted
thrill, Giulini/LAPO. Seems like everyone counts that one as a near-
miss, but I really liked it last I heard it.

There is nothing "perverted about this recording. It is great, honest
and completely coherent music making, despite the slow tempi. Which
makes it so fascinating. There is no extraneous concept that Giulini
came up with and superimposed on the music, he really just develops
the whole interpretation by giving each note the weight and space he
feels it needs. Pretty amazing, although my own ideal interpretation
of this symphony would be almost at the opposite end of the
interpretive spectrum.

Hear, hear. I too find Giulini too slow (if pressed, I'd have to choose
E. Kleiber and Szell as my paradigms), but I can't imagine this
supremely honorable musician ever doing anything 'perverse'.

Bob Harper

[M***@gmail.com]

Post by Bob Harper
Hear, hear. I too find Giulini too slow (if pressed, I'd have to choose
E. Kleiber and Szell as my paradigms), but I can't imagine this
supremely honorable musician ever doing anything 'perverse'.
Bob Harper

Well, my original phrasing put the perversion on my own shoulders. It
is a performance nobody here especially loves, so it is an odd
devotion.

[Michael Schaffer]

Post by Bob Harper
Hear, hear. I too find Giulini too slow (if pressed, I'd have to choose
E. Kleiber and Szell as my paradigms), but I can't imagine this
supremely honorable musician ever doing anything 'perverse'.
Bob Harper

Well, my original phrasing put the perversion on my own shoulders.  It
is a performance nobody here especially loves, so it is an odd
devotion.

I think it's great, like I said above. Definitely one of my favorite
performances of this symphony and in general, one of the most
astonishing performances of anything I know. What I find so
fascinating is that it makes total musical sense, the line never sags,
and in fact, is sustanied throughout very firmly. Also a great feat by
the orchestra which was really challened by Giulini but lived up to it.

[M***@gmail.com]

Post by Michael Schaffer
I think it's great, like I said above. Definitely one of my favorite
performances of this symphony and in general, one of the most
astonishing performances of anything I know. What I find so
fascinating is that it makes total musical sense, the line never sags,
and in fact, is sustanied throughout very firmly. Also a great feat by
the orchestra which was really challened by Giulini but lived up to it.

A better endorsement that I could manage- thank you!

[Todd Schurk]

Post by Bob Harper

Post by Michael Schaffer

Post by M***@gmail.com
I'm sure I'm leaving something out. Oh, like my most perverted
thrill, Giulini/LAPO. Seems like everyone counts that one as a near-
miss, but I really liked it last I heard it.

There is nothing "perverted about this recording. It is great, honest
and completely coherent music making, despite the slow tempi. Which
makes it so fascinating. There is no extraneous concept that Giulini
came up with and superimposed on the music, he really just develops
the whole interpretation by giving each note the weight and space he
feels it needs. Pretty amazing, although my own ideal interpretation
of this symphony would be almost at the opposite end of the
interpretive spectrum.

Hear, hear. I too find Giulini too slow (if pressed, I'd have to choose
E. Kleiber and Szell as my paradigms), but I can't imagine this
supremely honorable musician ever doing anything 'perverse'.
Bob Harper

Speaking of Szell his 1970 live Cleveland broadcast of the Eroica (a
few days after the Kent State shooting) is the most elastic and
dramatic of his that I've heard. The events of that week moved Szell
to ask for a moment of silence from the audience in the victims
memory. He then went on to produce an Eroica that must have been
unforgettable for those in attendance. The second movement has a
searing intensity. T.

[Bob Harper]

Post by Todd Schurk

Post by Bob Harper

Post by Michael Schaffer

Post by M***@gmail.com
I'm sure I'm leaving something out. Oh, like my most perverted
thrill, Giulini/LAPO. Seems like everyone counts that one as a near-
miss, but I really liked it last I heard it.

There is nothing "perverted about this recording. It is great, honest
and completely coherent music making, despite the slow tempi. Which
makes it so fascinating. There is no extraneous concept that Giulini
came up with and superimposed on the music, he really just develops
the whole interpretation by giving each note the weight and space he
feels it needs. Pretty amazing, although my own ideal interpretation
of this symphony would be almost at the opposite end of the
interpretive spectrum.

Hear, hear. I too find Giulini too slow (if pressed, I'd have to choose
E. Kleiber and Szell as my paradigms), but I can't imagine this
supremely honorable musician ever doing anything 'perverse'.
Bob Harper

Speaking of Szell his 1970 live Cleveland broadcast of the Eroica (a
few days after the Kent State shooting) is the most elastic and
dramatic of his that I've heard. The events of that week moved Szell
to ask for a moment of silence from the audience in the victims
memory. He then went on to produce an Eroica that must have been
unforgettable for those in attendance. The second movement has a
searing intensity. T.

Glad you reminded me of that; I downloaded it a while back, and what you
say is absolutely right.

Bob Harper

[MELMOTH]

Ce cher mammifère du nom de MELMOTH nous susurrait, le mercredi
17/09/2008, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales quand

Post by MELMOTH
And so many others !...

I have just got Barbirolli's version (live concert Living Stage LS
1023) [+ n°2 by Mahler]...
First movement too much slow, for me...

[w***@the dome.com]

Bruckner Te Deum Part 3 - NHK Symphony Orchestra Lovro von Matacic. It Saying
part 3 But Its All of It, My Crap up
http://www.mediafire.com/?uhtnz52xl4m

[d***@yahoo.co.uk]

It wasn't until my mid 20's that I first heard the 3rd.  It was given to
me by a friend.  It was the Artia lp with von Matacic/Czech
Philharmonic.  I loved it so much, I kept it until it was worn out and
never got a cance to replace it.  I haven't heard that many since, but I
do have Reiner/CSO and Scherchen/Vienna (Westminster) and enjoy those
performances all the time.  When I tried to acquire the Matacic on cd it
was unavailable until I finally got a copy.
So I'm listening now to this performance
and it is still as splendid as when I first heard it.  Its on a
Supraphon Archive series cd.  Don't know how available this performance
is but every lover of this work should acquire it, if they don't have
it.  The slow movement is more paced than others but it works very well
for me.  From the multitude of available performances, your experiences
(especially your first hearing/recording) would be interesting to hear
about as well as your personal favorites, aside from the ones I
mentioned here.  I might want to go beyond just these three...
Thanks!

My first acquaintance of this symphony came when, as a teenager and
not knowing a thing about this kind of music, I decided, purely out of
curiosity, to buy myself a set of Beethoven symphonies and find out
what all the fuss was about. I did not even know in those days that
different performances can produce significantly different results. I
bought the VPO set conducted by Karl Boehm for no better reason than
that the shop I bought it from was offering a good discount on it.
This cycle, I now realise, has some strong points, but the Eroica
isn't one of them. Consequently, it was perhaps the last of
Beethoven's major symphonies that I came to appreciate.

Two recordings opened my ears to this work, and they remain my
favourites:

Concertgebouw/Pierre Monteux
VPO/Erich Kleiber

The Monteux recording is possibly my favourite recorded performance of
any Beethoven symphony. How can one be so graceful and so fiery at the
same time? This one succeeds. The textures are light, the rhythms are
light on their feet, and yet, there's never a hint of the drama being
underplayed. Erich Kleiber's recording, too, is fiery and intense: the
funeral march, especially, is every bit as earth-shattering as it
should be.

- Harry

[w***@the dome.com]

Philadelphia walter
http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=tekmnysz3w3&thumb=5
Or here
http://www.geocities.com/walteriana76/BWrecordsB.htm

[Eric Grunin]

It wasn't until my mid 20's that I first heard the 3rd.  It was given to
me by a friend.  It was the Artia lp with von Matacic/Czech
Philharmonic.  I loved it so much, I kept it until it was worn out and
never got a cance to replace it.  I haven't heard that many since, but I
do have Reiner/CSO and Scherchen/Vienna (Westminster) and enjoy those
performances all the time.  When I tried to acquire the Matacic on cd it
was unavailable until I finally got a copy.
So I'm listening now to this performance
and it is still as splendid as when I first heard it.  Its on a
Supraphon Archive series cd.  Don't know how available this performance
is but every lover of this work should acquire it, if they don't have
it.  The slow movement is more paced than others but it works very well
for me.  From the multitude of available performances, your experiences
(especially your first hearing/recording) would be interesting to hear
about as well as your personal favorites, aside from the ones I
mentioned here.  I might want to go beyond just these three...
Thanks!

You might find this of use: http://www.grunin.com/eroica/?page=recommended.htm

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

[gggg gggg]

It wasn't until my mid 20's that I first heard the 3rd. It was given to
me by a friend. It was the Artia lp with von Matacic/Czech
Philharmonic. I loved it so much, I kept it until it was worn out and
never got a cance to replace it. I haven't heard that many since, but I
do have Reiner/CSO and Scherchen/Vienna (Westminster) and enjoy those
performances all the time. When I tried to acquire the Matacic on cd it
was unavailable until I finally got a copy.
So I'm listening now to this performance
and it is still as splendid as when I first heard it. Its on a
Supraphon Archive series cd. Don't know how available this performance
is but every lover of this work should acquire it, if they don't have
it. The slow movement is more paced than others but it works very well
for me. From the multitude of available performances, your experiences
(especially your first hearing/recording) would be interesting to hear
about as well as your personal favorites, aside from the ones I
mentioned here. I might want to go beyond just these three...
Thanks!

(2022 Y. upload):

"Beethoven "Symphony No3" Dimitri Mitropoulos, Athen 1955"

[gggg gggg]

It wasn't until my mid 20's that I first heard the 3rd. It was given to
me by a friend. It was the Artia lp with von Matacic/Czech
Philharmonic. I loved it so much, I kept it until it was worn out and
never got a cance to replace it. I haven't heard that many since, but I
do have Reiner/CSO and Scherchen/Vienna (Westminster) and enjoy those
performances all the time. When I tried to acquire the Matacic on cd it
was unavailable until I finally got a copy.
So I'm listening now to this performance
and it is still as splendid as when I first heard it. Its on a
Supraphon Archive series cd. Don't know how available this performance
is but every lover of this work should acquire it, if they don't have
it. The slow movement is more paced than others but it works very well
for me. From the multitude of available performances, your experiences
(especially your first hearing/recording) would be interesting to hear
about as well as your personal favorites, aside from the ones I
mentioned here. I might want to go beyond just these three...
Thanks!

https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/JRoFX9Fuwyk