The Mozart symphonies, and it ain't pretty ...

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

MIFrost

2019-01-31 02:52:12 UTC

I'm looking for another set of, mostly, the later symphonies. I have the Marriner set and the Pinnock and find them both fairly middle of the road. I'm looking for something a bit more out of the ordinary. Sort of like Fey's Haydn, if there is such a thing. Jacobs gets crucified by David Hurwitz on ClassicsToday and Mackerras, well, I don't know. Szell maybe? Does anyone here have any suggestions?

MIFrost

Frank Berger

2019-01-31 04:06:17 UTC

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Post by MIFrost
I'm looking for another set of, mostly, the later symphonies. I have the Marriner set and the Pinnock and find them both fairly middle of the road. I'm looking for something a bit more out of the ordinary. Sort of like Fey's Haydn, if there is such a thing. Jacobs gets crucified by David Hurwitz on ClassicsToday and Mackerras, well, I don't know. Szell maybe? Does anyone here have any suggestions?
MIFrost

The joyful Casals/Marlboro recordings work for me, though I don't know
how that relates to Fey's Haydn.

Matthew Silverstein

2019-01-31 07:01:10 UTC

Permalink

Post by MIFrost
I'm looking for another set of, mostly, the later symphonies. I have the
Marriner set and the Pinnock and find them both fairly middle of the road.
I'm looking for something a bit more out of the ordinary. Sort of like Fey's
Haydn, if there is such a thing. Jacobs gets crucified by David Hurwitz on
ClassicsToday and Mackerras, well, I don't know. Szell maybe? Does anyone
here have any suggestions?

The Mackerras recordings on Linn are excellent, but I'd put them in the same category as Marriner and Pinnock. They're probably at the top of that category, with more forceful accents and brash colors, but they're still not radical in the way that Fey's Haydn can be. For something a little more in that direction, I recommend Brüggen's early recordings on Philips, which have been collected in a nice Decca set available in Germany:

https://www.amazon.de/Conducts-Mozart-Frans-Brüggen/dp/B01C7W7KP6/

Harnoncourt's Concertgebouw recordings are also excellent -- more interesting than his later remakes with the COE. (There's also a terrific DVD with a live 38 with VCM.)

The set I know that's closest to Fey's Haydn may be Adam Fischer's on a series of superbly recorded Dacapo SACDs. A few others worth trying are two fairly eccentric CDs from Rene Jacobs on HM, Immerseel's disc of 39-41, and Minkowski's excellent disc (on DG, I believe).

Most of these are available on Spotify, if you want to sample there.

Matty

Gerard

2019-01-31 12:15:07 UTC

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Post by Matthew Silverstein

Post by MIFrost
I'm looking for another set of, mostly, the later symphonies. I have the
Marriner set and the Pinnock and find them both fairly middle of the road.
I'm looking for something a bit more out of the ordinary. Sort of like Fey's
Haydn, if there is such a thing. Jacobs gets crucified by David Hurwitz on
ClassicsToday and Mackerras, well, I don't know. Szell maybe? Does anyone
here have any suggestions?

https://www.amazon.de/Conducts-Mozart-Frans-Brüggen/dp/B01C7W7KP6/

I'ld recommend Gardiner's recordings, also collected in a Decca set.
https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Recordings-John-Eliot-Gardiner/dp/B00OYJDPF0/

wkasimer

2019-01-31 18:18:10 UTC

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Post by Matthew Silverstein
The set I know that's closest to Fey's Haydn may be Adam Fischer's on a series of superbly recorded Dacapo SACDs.

Fischer's recordings are also available in RBCD as a set:

https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-45-Symphonies-Wolfgang-Amadeus/dp/B00FETUPN4

In addition to those mentioned already - Bruggen and Casals in particular - I'm fond of Bruno Walter's recordings.

MIFrost

2019-01-31 21:36:45 UTC

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Post by wkasimer

Post by Matthew Silverstein
The set I know that's closest to Fey's Haydn may be Adam Fischer's on a series of superbly recorded Dacapo SACDs.

https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-45-Symphonies-Wolfgang-Amadeus/dp/B00FETUPN4
In addition to those mentioned already - Bruggen and Casals in particular - I'm fond of Bruno Walter's recordings.

I realize it's not going to be anything "Fey-like," but I decided to go for Bruno Walter. His reputation in Mozart is unmatched. I'll give him a try.

https://www.amazon.com/Walter-Conducts-Mozart-Wolfgang-Amadeus/dp/B0056K4VRM/ref=asc_df_B0056K4VRM/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312217022567&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9333293798848096257&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004989&hvtargid=pla-527996199023&psc=1

MIFrost

m***@gmail.com

2019-01-31 21:46:49 UTC

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Post by wkasimer

Post by Matthew Silverstein
The set I know that's closest to Fey's Haydn may be Adam Fischer's on a series of superbly recorded Dacapo SACDs.

https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-45-Symphonies-Wolfgang-Amadeus/dp/B00FETUPN4
In addition to those mentioned already - Bruggen and Casals in particular - I'm fond of Bruno Walter's recordings.

You can try out the Fischer set on Amazon music - its in separate volumes.

Randy Lane

2019-01-31 15:05:06 UTC

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Brüggen's Glossa Mozart recordings are a possible option.
Some like these, some don't.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B014559UME

Gerard

2019-01-31 15:07:53 UTC

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Post by Randy Lane
Brüggen's Glossa Mozart recordings are a possible option.
Some like these, some don't.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B014559UME

But that's only 3 symphonies.

Lawrence Kart

2019-01-31 15:41:59 UTC

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Peter Maag:

https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Late-Symphonies-Wolfgang-Amadeus/dp/B0000YO63I/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1548949231&sr=1-1&keywords=peter+maag+mozart

Bob Harper

2019-01-31 18:05:38 UTC

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Two suggestions:

https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Late-Symphonies-Wolfgang-Amadeus/dp/B0000YO63I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1548957568&sr=8-1&keywords=maag+mozart

(already recommended by Larry Kart)

and

https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Famous-Symphonies-Serenades-Concertos/dp/B005BXVB5E/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1548957686&sr=8-2&keywords=suitner+mozart

While neither of these is very Fey-like, but both are outstanding.

Bob Harper

m***@gmail.com

2019-01-31 23:56:44 UTC

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First stop: Bour. I don't know about Fey, but much more vitality than the others you mention above. Used for $2.25:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00023GOKU/

SE.

Frank Berger

2019-02-01 00:08:47 UTC

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Post by m***@gmail.com

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00023GOKU/
SE.

I like Bour also. One of those sets where the recording dates seem lost
to posterity.

MIFrost

2019-02-01 02:15:05 UTC

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Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@gmail.com
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00023GOKU/
SE.

I like Bour also. One of those sets where the recording dates seem lost
to posterity.

The price is too good to pass up. What the heck; I'll get the Bour too.

MIFrost

Johannes Roehl

2019-02-01 14:56:55 UTC

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Post by MIFrost

Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@gmail.com
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00023GOKU/
SE.

I like Bour also. One of those sets where the recording dates seem lost
to posterity.

The price is too good to pass up. What the heck; I'll get the Bour too.
MIFrost

The Bour is a "sleeper" at the price but it is not at all like Fey. More in the "lean and modern" but somewhat "neutral" vein, I'd say. Sound is decent, probably early 1970s (Bour worked at the Southwest German Radio 1964-79).

I have not heard any of the Fischer. I heard snippets of Jacobs and this was pretty much like Fey, maybe "worse" (i.e. even more exaggerated). Of the more extrovert HIP I'd much rather go with Minkowski in 40/41 and Immerseel in the last three. Unfortunately I don't remember enough of Gardiner's and I don't think I heard much of Brüggen's.

And of course, Harnoncourt although the late recordings are too weird for me and the 1980s Concertgebouw are with modern instruments. His early symphonies (up to #27, with the concentus musicus) have been re-packaged cheaply, if you care at all for the early ones, get them.

MIFrost

2019-02-09 16:59:16 UTC

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Post by MIFrost

Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@gmail.com
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00023GOKU/
SE.

I like Bour also. One of those sets where the recording dates seem lost
to posterity.

The price is too good to pass up. What the heck; I'll get the Bour too.
MIFrost

Well, I just listened to some of the Bour I got and it is terrific, IMHO. Sprightly, alert and well-played. Very "alive." Enjoying it immensely.

MIFrost

g***@gmail.com

2019-02-01 04:02:06 UTC

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http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/mozartsyms.html

c***@gmail.com

2019-02-01 16:10:56 UTC

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Have you heard Albert Coates' "Jupiter"? More than a bit out of the ordinary :-) The acoustic from Shellackophile and the electric from Pristine. I'm not really answering the question because I *like" "central" performances. Not so high on Bour, though; I agree with Johannes' characterization as "neutral," and might have gone so far as to say "bland." In this vein, I'd recommend Wand in preference to Bour. The RCA containing Symphonies 39-41 with the NDR Symphony is available lossless from Presto (CD is op, I think). Terrific orchestral playing and well-judged performances. Two CDs of Wand's earlier Cologne Mozart reissued on Testament are currently listed by BRO. They're also good, imo, and there's more Mozart in the Profil boxes devoted to the conductor.

The Szell recordings were the first ones I owned so I guess I'm hopelessly prejudiced in favor of them. I like Mackerras very much in the earlier symphonies but no so much in the later ones.

AC (no help at all)

sleepy hollow

2019-02-01 17:52:38 UTC

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The Klemperer/Philharmonia Box or the Krips/ COA box.

Andrew Clarke

2019-02-02 01:23:02 UTC

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Hear excerpts from the Rene Jacobs plus snippets from reviews at:

<https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7984799--mozart-symphonies-nos-39-40#reviews>
<https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8005506--mozart-symphonies-nos-38-41>

The reviews are drawn from the British press and are uniformly enthusiastic. Perhaps they thought the conductor was *David* Jacobs?

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Jacobs_(broadcaster)>

I am definitely going to buy these in the near future. Thanks Dave! (Hurwitz not Jacobs).

Frank Lekens

2019-02-03 22:34:33 UTC

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Post by Andrew Clarke

<https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7984799--mozart-symphonies-nos-39-40#reviews>
<https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8005506--mozart-symphonies-nos-38-41>
The reviews are drawn from the British press and are uniformly enthusiastic. Perhaps they thought the conductor was *David* Jacobs?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Jacobs_(broadcaster)>
I am definitely going to buy these in the near future. Thanks Dave! (Hurwitz not Jacobs).

As it happens, a Dutch review programme where three panellists listen to
three performances blindly was dedicated to the Jupiter a week ago.
https://www.nporadio4.nl/diskotabel/uitzendingen/655293:2019-01-27-diskotabel

Of the three performances the one by Mackerras was the oldest, and it
was quickly dismissed as being too tame and old fashioned in comparison
with the other two.

The other two were Andrew Manze with the NDR Radiophilharmonie on
PentaTone, and Mathieu Herzog (co-founder of the Ebene Quartet) with
Ensemble Appassionato on NAIVE. Both were indeed quite a bit more lively
and colourful (at least based on the snippets we heard), but Mathieu
Herzog's was by far the wildest, that was very apparent even to my ears
(not very familiar with this work).

The latter is on Spotify; Manze's doesn't seem to be. The fragments can
of course be heard in the link above, but it's interspersed with a lot
of discussion in Dutch.

I don't know Fey's Haydn, don't know how these performances compare to
his (hypothetical) Mozart; maybe they're in the ballpark.

Ensemble Appassionato:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoTtRHG2PFvZzgGS6bh9xLw
https://www.ensembleappassionato.com/
Manze:
http://www.pentatonemusic.com/mozart-symphonies-40-41-jupiter-manze-ndr-radiophilharmonie

--
Frank Lekens

http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
https://franklekens.blogspot.nl/

g***@gmail.com

2019-02-04 03:22:06 UTC

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This recent article recommends Szell:

https://www.wqxr.org/story/20-essential-mozart-recordings/

Mandryka

2019-02-09 17:52:21 UTC

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Post by g***@gmail.com

https://www.wqxr.org/story/20-essential-mozart-recordings/

I think Sturm und Drang is one major theme in contemporary performance of C18 and C19 music. You hear it in Bavouzet's Mozart, in Tetzlaff's Schubert and here in Herzog's Mozart. Herzog is quite explicit about it:

" I really wanted to show the link that can be found between the Sturm und
Drang aspect which is very present in these three symphonies and the wonderfulwork that has been done over the past forty years and has now been digested."

This Herzog recording, I'm not clear whether it's a reorchestration of Mozart's symphonies or not.

He says something striking about Mozart and Beethoven, that " These three symphonies are pre-Beethovenian in many respects; it is therefore not inconsistent to envisage doing them with a certain form of strength, with, for example, powerful and massive orchestral tuttis."

Hmmmmm. A lot hangs on that word "inconsistent" He also has no time for PI "modern instruments,modern bows, modern accuracy of intonation are not a regression but a progression. This music must be completely alive and continue to evolve with our generation."

Double hmmmmm -- it would be interesting if he's have said more on these things, but it's just an interview with a journalist for a book.

I've listened to the Jupiter -- it's thrilling and dramatic and it sounds wonderful. I think this is going to be a fun recording to get to know.

Mandryka

2019-02-09 20:19:48 UTC

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Apparently Herzog has reorchestrated the music on the recording, I'm not sure how, he says this:

"Re the reorchestration (whatever it may be) he says

": I am a chamber musician, and this
disc features members of many French string quartets – the Ébène, the Arod,
the Hanson and so on. This chamber musical conception is very powerful. In fact,
that’s the origin of Appassionato: a flexibly sized chamber orchestra, for which
I generally reorchestrate all kinds of works . . . , the reorchestration brings them something else, a new way of looking at them, that chamber
approach I mentioned earlier. And the primary quality of a chamber orchestra
is of course its precision, the possibility it offers of playing with musical time in
a different way, of taking certain liberties."

Herman

2019-02-09 21:10:13 UTC

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Post by Mandryka
This Herzog recording, I'm not clear whether it's a reorchestration of Mozart's symphonies or not.

One would hope not.

Post by Mandryka
He says something striking about Mozart and Beethoven, that " These three symphonies are pre-Beethovenian in many respects; it is therefore not inconsistent to envisage doing them with a certain form of strength, with, for example, powerful and massive orchestral tuttis."

Of course they are "pre-Beethovenian". However, that doesn't mean, hopefully, that late Mozart should be foreshadowing Beethoven, most of whose orchestral music doesn't call for "massive tuttis" either.

Post by Mandryka
Hmmmmm. A lot hangs on that word "inconsistent" He also has no time for PI "modern instruments,modern bows, modern accuracy of intonation are not a regression but a progression. This music must be completely alive and continue to evolve with our generation."
Double hmmmmm -- it would be interesting if he's have said more on these things, but it's just an interview with a journalist for a book.
I've listened to the Jupiter -- it's thrilling and dramatic and it sounds wonderful. I think this is going to be a fun recording to get to know.

Thornhill

2019-02-11 03:02:29 UTC

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My personal favorite is Szell. His recordings are sprinkled with insightful interpretational touches that still sound fresh today, like the triumphant trumpet at the very end of No. 41. And he particularly excels at the inner movements.

KaiserD2

2019-02-18 01:50:50 UTC

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I would suggest checking out Beecham, Boehm (all available on
youtube), Klemperer, and Karajan. Beecham is beautifully done on
pristine, and I think Klemperer is there, too. There are only a few
by Ferenc Fricsay but they are amazing, including one of the best
Jupiters. Good luck.

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 19:02:29 -0800 (PST), Thornhill

Post by Thornhill

Not a Dentist

2019-02-18 22:56:49 UTC

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Post by Thornhill

Szell is supreme, BUT (and how sad it is to say) there are two holes in the sequence: NO "Linz" and NO "Prague". If live versions exist, please let me know!

Bob Harper

2019-02-19 00:03:26 UTC

Permalink

Post by Not a Dentist

Post by Thornhill

Szell is supreme, BUT (and how sad it is to say) there are two holes in the sequence: NO "Linz" and NO "Prague". If live versions exist, please let me know!

Symphonyshare has a Mozart 38 from October 14, 1965.

Bob Harper

Bob Harper

2019-02-19 05:22:30 UTC

Permalink

Post by Bob Harper

Post by Not a Dentist

Post by Thornhill

Post by MIFrost
I'm looking for another set of, mostly, the later symphonies. I
have the Marriner set and the Pinnock and find them both fairly
middle of the road. I'm looking for something a bit more out of the
ordinary. Sort of like Fey's Haydn, if there is such a thing.
Jacobs gets crucified by David Hurwitz on ClassicsToday and
Mackerras, well, I don't know. Szell maybe? Does anyone here have
any suggestions?
MIFrost

My personal favorite is Szell. His recordings are sprinkled with
insightful interpretational touches that still sound fresh today,
like the triumphant trumpet at the very end of No. 41. And he
particularly excels at the inner movements.

Szell is supreme, BUT (and how sad it is to say) there are two holes
in the sequence: NO "Linz" and NO "Prague". If live versions exist,
please let me know!

Symphonyshare has a Mozart 38 from October 14, 1965.
Bob Harper

YouTube has something called a Szell 38, but the description says it's
Klemperer/Philharmonia. The Youngrok Lee discography lists neither a 36
nor a 38. How we know the one on Symphonysgare is real?
Well, it has Robert Conrad's commentary. Fakeable, I suppose, but why?

And it was a broadcast, which wouldn't be included in a discography
anyway, would it? And it sounds like Szell :).

Bob Harper

n***@gmail.com

2019-02-18 07:27:25 UTC

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I can't understand why "it ain't pretty". On the contrary, I always found it to be quite pretty.

MIFrost

2019-02-18 12:26:11 UTC

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I meant I want to avoid “pretty” interpretations. Mariner is too “pretty” for my taste. The Walter is much better. More drama and heft to my ears.

MIFrost

Johannes Roehl

2019-02-19 08:58:27 UTC

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Post by MIFrost
I meant I want to avoid “pretty” interpretations. Mariner is too “pretty” for
my taste. The Walter is much better. More drama and heft to my ears.

Harnoncourt and Klemperer (he recorded about a dozen, the more famous ones several times) are about as un-pretty as it gets. Massive, sometimes slow, sometimes dramatic, sometimes strange but always unique. The Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw have been reissued in several series, it should be easy to sample a few (I recommend particulary 25 and 38-40), the Klemperer has been repackaged in a cheap EMI/Warner box.
I am glad you like Bour, but compared to Klemp and Harnoncourt his Mozart is rather plain and straighforward.

Continue reading on narkive:

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