Plagiarism....

[Ördög]

....in film music, that is.

Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

[MiNe 109]

In article

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Other than by John Williams?

Stephen

[Ördög]

Post by MiNe 109
In article

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Other than by John Williams?
Stephen

Let me guess. Do you mean "Close Encounters of the Third Kind"?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but "when you wish upon a star" is credited,
at least on the DVD issue. Does that really qualify as plagiarism?
Horner credits no one but himself and that's what really irritates me.
Williams quotes from 'Dies Irae' in the same film, but many
"legitimate"composers have done that (Tchaikovsky, Rakhmaninov, etc.)

[MiNe 109]

In article

Post by Ördög

Post by MiNe 109
In article

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Other than by John Williams?
Stephen

Let me guess. Do you mean "Close Encounters of the Third Kind"?
Correct me if I'm wrong but "when you wish upon a star" is credited,
at least on the DVD issue. Does that really qualify as plagiarism?

No. He's known for borrowing, adapting, imitating the style of other
works. I don't mind this myself.

Post by Ördög
Horner credits no one but himself and that's what really irritates me.
Williams quotes from 'Dies Irae' in the same film, but many
"legitimate"composers have done that (Tchaikovsky, Rakhmaninov, etc.)

A good composer borrows, a great composer steals.

Stephen

[Ördög]

Post by MiNe 109
In article

Post by Ördög

Post by MiNe 109
In article

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Other than by John Williams?
Stephen

Let me guess. Do you mean "Close Encounters of the Third Kind"?
Correct me if I'm wrong but "when you wish upon a star" is credited,
at least on the DVD issue. Does that really qualify as plagiarism?

No. He's known for borrowing, adapting, imitating the style of other
works. I don't mind this myself.

Post by Ördög
Horner credits no one but himself and that's what really irritates me.
Williams quotes from 'Dies Irae' in the same film, but many
"legitimate"composers have done that (Tchaikovsky, Rakhmaninov, etc.)

A good composer borrows, a great composer steals.
Stephen- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Yes indeed. Handel "borrowed" now and then - but did he ever repay his
debts? Of course, he wasn't the only one and it was considered
acceptable at that time. But at that time, copyright didn't exist. Had
he (Handel) been alive today he would have been prosecuted for
stealing intellectual property, or something similar. So, with this in
mind, is Horner great or good? Or merely a plagiarist? Imitating a
composer's style is common practice (""the sincerest form of
flattery"), stealing intellectual property is quite wrong, IMO.

[Alan Dawes]

In article

Post by Ördög
Yes indeed. Handel "borrowed" now and then - but did he ever repay his
debts? Of course, he wasn't the only one and it was considered
acceptable at that time. But at that time, copyright didn't exist.

In England it did. Queen Anne wanted to encourage the publication of new
works by giving them protection from others copying their work for an
initial period of 14 years which could be extended to a total of 28 years.
If my memory is correct then this Act (sometimes called Queen Annes's Law)
was passed in 1710 and was thus already on the statute books by the time
Handel arrived here (it may have been part of the reasoning for Haydn
visiting London and publishing new works here later in the century).

Of course on the continent, where composers were in servitude to their
masters, copyright laws, which could have given more financial
independence to these sevants, would have been frowned upon by "the powers
that be".

Alan

[Ördög]

Post by MiNe 109
In article

Post by Ördög
Yes indeed. Handel "borrowed" now and then - but did he ever repay his
debts? Of course, he wasn't the only one and it was considered
acceptable at that time. But at that time, copyright didn't exist.

In England it did. Queen Anne wanted to encourage the publication of new
works by giving them protection from others copying their work for an
initial period of 14 years which could be extended to a total of 28 years.
If my memory is correct then this Act (sometimes called Queen Annes's Law)
was passed in 1710 and was thus already on the statute books by the time
Handel arrived here (it may have been part of the reasoning for Haydn
visiting London and publishing new works here later in the century).
Of course on the continent, where composers were in servitude to their
masters, copyright laws, which could have given more financial
independence to these sevants, would have been frowned upon by "the powers
that be".
Alan

Thank you Alan, I've actually learned something today! I spent some
time in various parts of England and Ireland during my self-imposed
exile from Hungary, and I even learned some English history. I am
aware of Queen Anne's Act of Longitude, but completely unaware that
she was responsible for copyright. Good for her!

[El Klauso]

Williams generally produces pieces 'informed' by the works of others.
( i.e. a Walton-style march for the finale of the first "Star Wars,"
a Prokofiev-style scherzo for the asteroid chase scene in the second
"Star Wars" film, etc.) The "Can You Read My Mind" sequence from
"Superman" is probably the closest that Williams has come to an
outright lift. Give a listen to this Williams theme, then to the main
theme of Richard Strauss' "Death and Transfiguration." Then, if you
will, go on to try Klemperer's "Merry Waltz" - the "B" section - and
you'll realize Williams was not the first person to drink from that
particular well...

Zimmer included a very close paraphrase of Holst's "Mars" in the
opening battle scene of "Gladiator," and I could cite many more. The
closeness of a film composer's creation to a classical original can be
angering to some, clever to others; but generally, motion picture
composers paraphrase concert music, as opposed to copying it.

[Mr. Mike]

On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 14:15:45 -0800 (PST), El Klauso

Post by El Klauso
The "Can You Read My Mind" sequence from
"Superman" is probably the closest that Williams has come to an
outright lift. Give a listen to this Williams theme, then to the main
theme of Richard Strauss' "Death and Transfiguration."

And then read this WWW page:

http://mmmusing.blogspot.com/2007/01/can-you-read-my-mind-and-name-that-tune.html

[El Klauso]

"Superman" is probably the closest that Williams has come to an
outright lift. Give a listen to this Williams theme, then to the main
theme of Richard Strauss' "Death and Transfiguration."

And then read this WWW page:

And then compare the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" March with the old pop
song by the Ray Conniff singers, "That's What Happiness Is..."

[Kip Williams]

Post by MiNe 109
In article

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Other than by John Williams?

Oh, yes. THE RIGHT STUFF is a lovely movie, but it drives me crazy to
hear it -almost- quoting the Tchaikovsky violin concerto and then
suddenly veering off in another direction. Over and over. Nobody is
fooled by the deception unless they don't know the original at all.


Kip W

[Ördög]

Post by Kip Williams

Post by MiNe 109
In article

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Other than by John Williams?

Oh, yes. THE RIGHT STUFF is a lovely movie, but it drives me crazy to
hear it -almost- quoting the Tchaikovsky violin concerto and then
suddenly veering off in another direction. Over and over. Nobody is
fooled by the deception unless they don't know the original at all.
Kip W

And that was the point I was trying to make. (I'm not very good at
this yet) How many viewers of "Troy" might think, 'Wow, isn't Horner a
wonderful composer!?! - not realising that he had pinched most of his
stuff from a *really* wonderful composer.

[Steve de Mena]

Post by Ördög

Post by Ördög
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

And that was the point I was trying to make. (I'm not very good at
this yet) How many viewers of "Troy" might think, 'Wow, isn't Horner a
wonderful composer!?! - not realising that he had pinched most of his
stuff from a *really* wonderful composer.

Or not realizing that the music that Gabriel Yared spent a year
composing for the film was poorly received at test screenings and
Horner had to come in at the last minute and redo the entire score in
4 weeks,

Steve

[Ördög]

Post by Steve de Mena

Post by Ördög
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

And  that was the point I was trying to make. (I'm not very good at
this yet) How many viewers of "Troy" might think, 'Wow, isn't Horner a
wonderful composer!?!  - not realising that he had pinched most of his
stuff from a *really* wonderful composer.

Or not realizing that the music that Gabriel Yared spent a year
composing for the film was poorly received at test screenings and
Horner had to come in at the last minute and redo the entire score in
4 weeks,
Steve

I must confess that I'm not Mr. Horner's greatest admirer, but it
seems to me that 4 weeks is enough when plagiarising another
composer's work.After all, he had plenty of material to draw upon.

[David O.]

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 02:52:40 -0800 (PST), Ördög

I must confess that I'm not Mr. Horner's greatest admirer [snip]

I find a lot of Horner's work lugubrious & affected. He seems to score
every crisis in the plot with that shlocky signature of his: the
dreamy "Celtic Voices" style, which he also used in "Titanic" & "The
Perfect Storm." I don't like the music Howard Shore wrote for the
"Lord of the Rings" pictures, either, for much the same reasons.

[Ördög]

Post by David O.
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 02:52:40 -0800 (PST), Ördög

I must confess that I'm not Mr. Horner's greatest admirer [snip]

I find a lot of Horner's work lugubrious & affected. He seems to score
every crisis in the plot with that shlocky signature of his: the
dreamy "Celtic Voices" style, which he also used in "Titanic" & "The
Perfect Storm." I don't like the music Howard Shore wrote for the
"Lord of the Rings" pictures, either, for much the same reasons.

I have yet to hear a Horner score that I enjoyed, and I agree with you
completely.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Steve de Mena
Or not realizing that the music that Gabriel Yared spent
a year composing for the film was poorly received at test
screenings and Horner had to come in at the last minute
and redo the entire score in 4 weeks.

If composers didn't so "over-score" films, four weeks would seem a
reasonable amount of time.

[Lionel Tacchini]

Post by Ördög

Post by Kip Williams

Post by MiNe 109
In article

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Other than by John Williams?

Oh, yes. THE RIGHT STUFF is a lovely movie, but it drives me crazy to
hear it -almost- quoting the Tchaikovsky violin concerto and then
suddenly veering off in another direction. Over and over. Nobody is
fooled by the deception unless they don't know the original at all.
Kip W

And that was the point I was trying to make. (I'm not very good at
this yet) How many viewers of "Troy" might think, 'Wow, isn't Horner a
wonderful composer!?! - not realising that he had pinched most of his
stuff from a *really* wonderful composer.

This is a funny discussion. I did see Troy and cannot remember there
was music in it. I suppose it did its job of contributing to the film
as a whole and can be forgotten outside of it.

Lionel Tacchini

[Ördög]

Post by Lionel Tacchini

Post by Kip Williams

Post by MiNe 109
In article

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Other than by John Williams?

Oh, yes. THE RIGHT STUFF is a lovely movie, but it drives me crazy to
hear it -almost- quoting the Tchaikovsky violin concerto and then
suddenly veering off in another direction. Over and over. Nobody is
fooled by the deception unless they don't know the original at all.
Kip W

And  that was the point I was trying to make. (I'm not very good at
this yet) How many viewers of "Troy" might think, 'Wow, isn't Horner a
wonderful composer!?!  - not realising that he had pinched most of his
stuff from a *really* wonderful composer.

This is a funny discussion. I did see Troy and cannot remember there
was music in it. I suppose it did its job of contributing to the film
as a whole and can be forgotten outside of it.
Lionel Tacchini- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I think the music, such as it is, is best forgottten! OTOH, the
director's cut includes some music which was omitted from the original
version and those snippets are quite good in places.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Kip Williams

Post by MiNe 109
In article

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Other than by John Williams?

Oh, yes. THE RIGHT STUFF is a lovely movie, but it drives me crazy to
hear it -almost- quoting the Tchaikovsky violin concerto and then
suddenly veering off in another direction. Over and over. Nobody is
fooled by the deception unless they don't know the original at all.

That's my #1 pet peeve among thefts of this sort. Although I also think
that Marvin Hamlisch should be forced to give his Oscar for "The Sting" to
the heirs and assigns of Scott Joplin.

I can't help but feel that the Rodgers & Hammerstein tune "People Will Say
We're in Love" has been ripped off bigtime not merely once, but TWICE by
high-profile pop artists: the the verse in Melanie's "I've Got a Brand New
Pair Of Roller Skates," the chorus in Annie Lennox' "Constant Craving."

I was, by the way, delighted when Michael Jackson was sued by the Cleveland
Orchestra after he stole a portion of their recording (the one with Szell,
I think) of the Beethoven 9th and used it in "Will You Be There." There
was an out-of-court settlement, and I hope they bled him good.

[Kip Williams]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Kip Williams
Oh, yes. THE RIGHT STUFF is a lovely movie, but it drives me crazy to
hear it -almost- quoting the Tchaikovsky violin concerto and then
suddenly veering off in another direction. Over and over. Nobody is
fooled by the deception unless they don't know the original at all.

That's my #1 pet peeve among thefts of this sort. Although I also think
that Marvin Hamlisch should be forced to give his Oscar for "The Sting" to
the heirs and assigns of Scott Joplin.

At least he thanked Joplin in his speech. Compared to some, that's generous.

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I was, by the way, delighted when Michael Jackson was sued by the Cleveland
Orchestra after he stole a portion of their recording (the one with Szell,
I think) of the Beethoven 9th and used it in "Will You Be There." There
was an out-of-court settlement, and I hope they bled him good.

They got his nose.


Kip W

[Allen]

Post by Kip Williams

Post by Kip Williams
Oh, yes. THE RIGHT STUFF is a lovely movie, but it drives me crazy to
hear it -almost- quoting the Tchaikovsky violin concerto and then
suddenly veering off in another direction. Over and over. Nobody is
fooled by the deception unless they don't know the original at all.

That's my #1 pet peeve among thefts of this sort. Although I also think
that Marvin Hamlisch should be forced to give his Oscar for "The Sting" to
the heirs and assigns of Scott Joplin.

At least he thanked Joplin in his speech. Compared to some, that's generous.

<snip>

Post by Kip Williams
Kip W

Dimitri Tiomkin thanked around half a dozen classical composers when he
won an Oscar for the music for some movie in the last half of the 1950s.
Allen

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Allen

Post by Kip Williams

Post by Kip Williams
Oh, yes. THE RIGHT STUFF is a lovely movie, but it drives me crazy to
hear it -almost- quoting the Tchaikovsky violin concerto and then
suddenly veering off in another direction. Over and over. Nobody is
fooled by the deception unless they don't know the original at all.

That's my #1 pet peeve among thefts of this sort. Although I also think
that Marvin Hamlisch should be forced to give his Oscar for "The
Sting" to the heirs and assigns of Scott Joplin.

At least he thanked Joplin in his speech. Compared to some, that's generous.

<snip>

Post by Kip Williams
Kip W

Dimitri Tiomkin thanked around half a dozen classical composers when he
won an Oscar for the music for some movie in the last half of the 1950s.
Allen

"I would like to thank Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner, Strauss, Rimsky-
Korsakov."

[Mr. Mike]

On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 17:15:48 -0500, Kip Williams

Post by Kip Williams
THE RIGHT STUFF is a lovely movie, but it drives me crazy to
hear it -almost- quoting the Tchaikovsky violin concerto and then
suddenly veering off in another direction. Over and over. Nobody is
fooled by the deception unless they don't know the original at all.

Yet this film won the Oscar for best score that year!

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Mr. Mike

THE RIGHT STUFF is a lovely movie, but it drives me crazy to hear it -
almost- quoting the Tchaikovsky violin concerto and then suddenly veering
off in another direction. Over and over. Nobody is fooled by the deception
unless they don't know the original at all.

Yet this film won the Oscar for best score that year!

Shows what a good ghost writer Tchaikovsky was!

[Dennman6]

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Well my goodness, in rap "music" this is called "sampling" :)

Dennis "Miggity-mack-daddy" Forkel

[Ördög]

Post by Dennman6

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Well my goodness, in rap "music" this is called "sampling" :)
Dennis "Miggity-mack-daddy" Forkel

I suppose I should have said "classical plagiarism". Sorry.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Ördög
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's
cut) I was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner
felt it necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by
Shostakovich. Can anyone else recall any other film where this
is quite so blatant?

Bennie was guilty of it, quoting Bartok in "Journey to the Center of the
Earth".

[boombox]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Ördög
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's
cut) I was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner
felt it necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by
Shostakovich. Can anyone else recall any other film where this
is quite so blatant?

Bennie was guilty of it, quoting Bartok in "Journey to the Center of the
Earth".

Which piece did he quote, and where in the soundtrack?

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by boombox

Post by William Sommerwerck
Bennie was guilty of it, quoting Bartok in "Journey to the
Center of the Earth".

Which piece did he quote, and where in the soundtrack?

I believe he swiped part of one of Bartok's violin concertos. I'd have to
watch the film, which I'm not in the mood for, right now.

I forgot that the "riding theme" in "Marnie" was stolen from a living
British composer. KING FM plays the piece every once in a while, but I'm
never made a note of it.

[number_six]

snip < Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Does it only count if it's uncredited?

Wagner is used very prominently in Excalibur, but I haven't seen it in
a long time; it may be credited.

I think Wakeman's use of Dvorak in Ken Russell's film Crimes of
Passion was credited.

Wakeman also admitted, in the liner notes, swiping a few bars from
Grieg in his Journey to the Centre of the Earth album -- that wasn't
film music, though.

[Ördög]

Post by number_six

snip < Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Does it only count if it's uncredited?
Wagner is used very prominently in Excalibur, but I haven't seen it in
a long time; it may be credited.

Yes, it is - conducted by Norman del Mar, I think. I will need to
check.

[rje]

Post by number_six

snip < Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Does it only count if it's uncredited?
Wagner is used very prominently in Excalibur, but I haven't seen it in
a long time; it may be credited.
I think Wakeman's use of Dvorak in Ken Russell's film Crimes of
Passion was credited.
Wakeman also admitted, in the liner notes, swiping a few bars from
Grieg in his Journey to the Centre of the Earth album -- that wasn't
film music, though.

While not in the realm of plagiarism, in the 1970's when RCA re-
released Horowitz's 1950s mono recording of Pictures at an Exhibition,
someone in their marketing department had a large sticker placed on
the cover reading: "As made famous by Emerson, Lake & Palmer."

[number_six]

Post by rje

Post by number_six

snip < Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Does it only count if it's uncredited?
Wagner is used very prominently in Excalibur, but I haven't seen it in
a long time; it may be credited.
I think Wakeman's use of Dvorak in Ken Russell's film Crimes of
Passion was credited.
Wakeman also admitted, in the liner notes, swiping a few bars from
Grieg in his Journey to the Centre of the Earth album -- that wasn't
film music, though.

While not in the realm of plagiarism, in the 1970's when RCA re-
released Horowitz's 1950s mono recording of Pictures at an Exhibition,
someone in their marketing department had a large sticker placed on
the cover reading: "As made famous by Emerson, Lake & Palmer."

That's pretty funny. At that time, I certainly would have been more
familiar with ELP than with Horowitz -- but, had I seen that sticker,
even then I knew enough classical music that I would have been
dismayed.

[Barbara Huber]

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Haha ... try Star Wars and "The Planets", op. 32. I, Mars, by Gustav
Holst.
Film composers do this ALL the time.

[Kip Williams]

Post by Barbara Huber

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Haha ... try Star Wars and "The Planets", op. 32. I, Mars, by Gustav
Holst.
Film composers do this ALL the time.

I seem to recall hearing "Marche Slav" in some quiet moments of the main
title theme.

My favorite movie, THE WIZARD OF OZ, is rather straightforward in its
swipes. There's a Mendelssohn scherzo, there's "The Happy Farmer,"
there's "Home, Sweet Home," and bits that sound like a direct lift from
the musical clock in Hary Janos, and no doubt others that I'm forgetting.


Kip W

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Post by Kip Williams
My favorite movie, THE WIZARD OF OZ, is rather straightforward in its
swipes. There's a Mendelssohn scherzo, there's "The Happy Farmer," there's
"Home, Sweet Home," and bits that sound like a direct lift from the musical
clock in Hary Janos, and no doubt others that I'm forgetting.

Not "The Viennese Musical Clock," but "The Battle and Defeat of Napoleon,"
but yes, it's always struck me that way too.

[Ördög]

Post by Barbara Huber

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Haha ... try Star Wars and "The Planets", op. 32. I, Mars, by Gustav
Holst.
Film composers do this ALL the time.

Oh God - I can't remember any Star Wars music! On the other hand, I
thought the films were rather silly.

[Gerard]

Post by Barbara Huber

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's
cut) I was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner
felt it necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by
Shostakovich. Can anyone else recall any other film where this is
quite so blatant?

Haha ... try Star Wars and "The Planets", op. 32. I, Mars, by Gustav
Holst.
Film composers do this ALL the time.

Without mentioning it?

[Ördög]

Post by Gerard

Post by Barbara Huber

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's
cut) I was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner
felt it necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by
Shostakovich. Can anyone else recall any other film where this is
quite so blatant?

Haha ... try Star Wars and "The Planets", op. 32. I, Mars, by Gustav
Holst.
Film composers do this ALL the time.

Without mentioning it?

Usually. Sometimes it can be confusing, because the credits might say
something like, "original music by....", and it can be difficult to
know who composed what - unless it's obviously taken from a well known
classical piece and the recording is credited.

[Gerard]

Post by Ördög

Post by Gerard

Post by Barbara Huber

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's
cut) I was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner
felt it necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by
Shostakovich. Can anyone else recall any other film where this
is quite so blatant?

Haha ... try Star Wars and "The Planets", op. 32. I, Mars, by
Gustav Holst.
Film composers do this ALL the time.

Without mentioning it?

Usually. Sometimes it can be confusing, because the credits might say
something like, "original music by....", and it can be difficult to
know who composed what - unless it's obviously taken from a well known
classical piece and the recording is credited.

It might be difficult to read or to know, but that way it's not called
plagiarism, AFAIK.
My question was more about "do this ALL the time". I don't think so. But that's
because it's my impression.

[Matthew Silverstein]

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

One of the main themes of James Horner's score for the (mediocre) 80's
fantasy film *Willow* sounds uncannily like the main theme of the opening
movement of Schumann's Rhenish symphony.

Matty

[Kip Williams]

Post by Matthew Silverstein
One of the main themes of James Horner's score for the (mediocre) 80's
fantasy film *Willow* sounds uncannily like the main theme of the opening
movement of Schumann's Rhenish symphony.

I tried to watch that movie. It had one scene I liked, near the
beginning. They (I forget who) ask the mighty wizard what to do next.
The wizard conjures up a bird. "Follow the bird!" he says impressively.

"It's flying back toward town," someone points out.

"Forget the bird," the wizard says. "Follow the river."

I don't remember anything after that that lived up to this promising
beginning.


Kip W

[Ördög]

Post by Matthew Silverstein

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

One of the main themes of James Horner's score for the (mediocre) 80's
fantasy film *Willow* sounds uncannily like the main theme of the opening
movement of Schumann's Rhenish symphony.
Matty

And the waltz by Michael Kamen, featured in Terry Gilliam's
"Adventures of Baron Münchausen" would fit very neatly into "Der
Rosenkavalier".

[mark]

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

1. The main theme from "The Right Stuff" is a slightly adjusted rip
off of the first movement of the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto.

2. The movie "Time Bandits" has music based very closely on the first
movement of Mahler's Sixth

3. There was some pirate movie in the late 70s or 80s (The Island?)
that quoted extensively from Ein Heldenleben.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by mark
"Time Bandits" has music based very closely
on the first movement of Mahler's Sixth.

I think it's the Titan (First).

[mark]

On Jan 30, 10:38 am, "William Sommerwerck"

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by mark
"Time Bandits" has music based very closely
on the first movement of Mahler's Sixth.

I think it's the Titan (First).

I'm pretty sure it's the Sixth. That insistent rhythmic figure in the
basses and the woodwind writing are straight out of the Sixth.

[Mr. Mike]

On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 13:03:24 -0800 (PST), Ördög

Post by Ördög
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Exactly where in this film does this take place?

[Ördög]

Post by Mr. Mike
On Sat, 29 Jan 2011 13:03:24 -0800 (PST), Ördög

Post by Ördög
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

Exactly where in this film does this take place?

Without watching the whole film again, I can't specify exactly where.
Mainly in the battle scenes featuring Brad Pitt and/or Eric Bana. The
'director's cut' has snipped some of the Horner/Shostakovitch music.

[Mr. Mike]

Here are some interesting coincidences between the film music of Jerry
Fielding and certain other composers:

http://www3.telus.net/~mjq/fielding/

[El Klauso]

Post by Mr. Mike
Here are some interesting coincidences between the film music of Jerry
http://www3.telus.net/~mjq/fielding/

Wow...Sounds like 'royalty sharing time' to me.

[Mr. Mike]

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 18:30:10 -0800 (PST), El Klauso

Post by El Klauso
Wow...Sounds like 'royalty sharing time' to me.

I have brought up these comparisons on some film music forums and no
one has ever offered an explanation as to why Fielding did this, other
than he was doing an "homage" to two of his music heroes, Bartok and
Lutoslawski.

I wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that the music of
either or both of these composers was in a "public domain" state at
the time?

[Russ (not Martha)]

Post by Ördög
....in film music, that is.
Having seen Wolfgang Petersen's "Troy" (original and director's cut) I
was surpised, and not a little annoyed that James Horner felt it
necessary to quote, almost directly, from symphony 5 by Shostakovich.
Can anyone else recall any other film where this is quite so blatant?

'Red Heat', in which the selfsame Horner filches the Philosophers'
chorus from Prokofiev's Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the
Revolution.

Russ (not Martha)