The Biggest Turkeys

[ansermetniac]

What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?

Mine

1) Zubin-Gran Partita
2) Jack Brymer and buddies-Mozart Complete Mozart Wind Music
3) Toscanini-Oberon 1952 Studio
4) Larry Coombs and buddies-Mozart Music for Clarinets
5)Ansermet-In the Steppes with the PCO

Abbedd

p.s. Turkey's are for eating not listening-Happy Thanksgiving
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"Knowing what without knowing why is not knowing what"
"If Music is important,then anti-Musicality is even more important"
___________________________________________________
"I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made."
FDR

[Gerrit Stolte]

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?

Beethoven/Schubert sonatas by Brendel
Beethoven concerti by Brendel
Haydn symphonies by Szell
Schumann symphonies by Zinman

Regards,

[Owen Hartnett]

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?
Mine
1) Zubin-Gran Partita
2) Jack Brymer and buddies-Mozart Complete Mozart Wind Music
3) Toscanini-Oberon 1952 Studio
4) Larry Coombs and buddies-Mozart Music for Clarinets
5)Ansermet-In the Steppes with the PCO

My most regrettable purchase:

Ax/Previn Beethoven Emperor. I heard it on PBS - some wag raving about
how good it was. They even played several clips - sounded real good.
But they only played Ax's solo spots - Previn's accompaniment was so
anemic, it made the performance horrible.

-Owen

[ansermetniac]

Post by Owen Hartnett

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?
Mine
1) Zubin-Gran Partita
2) Jack Brymer and buddies-Mozart Complete Mozart Wind Music
3) Toscanini-Oberon 1952 Studio
4) Larry Coombs and buddies-Mozart Music for Clarinets
5)Ansermet-In the Steppes with the PCO

Ax/Previn Beethoven Emperor. I heard it on PBS - some wag raving about
how good it was. They even played several clips - sounded real good.
But they only played Ax's solo spots - Previn's accompaniment was so
anemic, it made the performance horrible.

What about Bobby McFerrin's accompaniment to the Mozart K466. Can't
get more anemic than that.

Abbedd

Post by Owen Hartnett
-Owen

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"Knowing what without knowing why is not knowing what"
"If Music is important,then anti-Musicality is even more important"
___________________________________________________
"I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made."
FDR

[Norman M. Schwartz]

Post by ansermetniac

Post by Owen Hartnett

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?
Mine
1) Zubin-Gran Partita
2) Jack Brymer and buddies-Mozart Complete Mozart Wind Music

"Brymer and buddies-" the stuff with ASMF?, in Philips' CME "Wind
Concertos" KV. 622 has Karl Leister as the soloist. Brymer performs in KV
297b. (In any event the Brymer's analog K622 and the corresponding Sinf.
Concertante 297b., as well as Turkey, drum sticks, are amongst my favs.)

Post by ansermetniac

Post by Owen Hartnett

Post by ansermetniac
3) Toscanini-Oberon 1952 Studio
4) Larry Coombs and buddies-Mozart Music for Clarinets
5)Ansermet-In the Steppes with the PCO

Ax/Previn Beethoven Emperor. I heard it on PBS - some wag raving about
how good it was. They even played several clips - sounded real good.
But they only played Ax's solo spots - Previn's accompaniment was so
anemic, it made the performance horrible.

What about Bobby McFerrin's accompaniment to the Mozart K466. Can't
get more anemic than that.
Abbedd

Post by Owen Hartnett
-Owen

________________
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"Knowing what without knowing why is not knowing what"
"If Music is important,then anti-Musicality is even more important"
___________________________________________________
"I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made."
FDR

[ansermetniac]

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:58:30 -0500, "Norman M. Schwartz"

Post by Norman M. Schwartz

Post by ansermetniac

Post by Owen Hartnett

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?
Mine
1) Zubin-Gran Partita
2) Jack Brymer and buddies-Mozart Complete Mozart Wind Music

"Brymer and buddies-" the stuff with ASMF?, in Philips' CME "Wind
Concertos" KV. 622 has Karl Leister as the soloist. Brymer performs in KV
297b. (In any event the Brymer's analog K622 and the corresponding Sinf.
Concertante 297b., as well as Turkey, drum sticks, are amongst my favs.)

No .On Decca London-The London Wind Soloists. The serenades and
divertimentos. Not the concertos

Abbedd

Post by Norman M. Schwartz

Post by ansermetniac

Post by Owen Hartnett

Post by ansermetniac
3) Toscanini-Oberon 1952 Studio
4) Larry Coombs and buddies-Mozart Music for Clarinets
5)Ansermet-In the Steppes with the PCO

Ax/Previn Beethoven Emperor. I heard it on PBS - some wag raving about
how good it was. They even played several clips - sounded real good.
But they only played Ax's solo spots - Previn's accompaniment was so
anemic, it made the performance horrible.

What about Bobby McFerrin's accompaniment to the Mozart K466. Can't
get more anemic than that.
Abbedd

Post by Owen Hartnett
-Owen

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"Knowing what without knowing why is not knowing what"
"If Music is important,then anti-Musicality is even more important"
___________________________________________________
"I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made."
FDR

________________

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"Knowing what without knowing why is not knowing what"
"If Music is important,then anti-Musicality is even more important"
___________________________________________________
"I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made."
FDR

[Spam Scone]

Post by Owen Hartnett

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?
Mine
1) Zubin-Gran Partita
2) Jack Brymer and buddies-Mozart Complete Mozart Wind Music
3) Toscanini-Oberon 1952 Studio
4) Larry Coombs and buddies-Mozart Music for Clarinets
5)Ansermet-In the Steppes with the PCO

Ax/Previn Beethoven Emperor. I heard it on PBS - some wag raving about
how good it was. They even played several clips - sounded real good.
But they only played Ax's solo spots - Previn's accompaniment was so
anemic, it made the performance horrible.
-Owen

Ditto. Except that Owen doesn't tell the other half of it - Ax is dreadful as well.

[David7Gable]

Traviata w/Carlos Kleiber
Don Carlo w/Giulini
Bohème w/Karajan
Anything w/Pinnock
Bach cantatas w/Rifkin
Any Mussorgsky w/Christoff
Boulez's late studio Mahler

-david gable

[Allan Kohrman]

I have chosen works that are highly rated, perhaps consensus first choices.

1. Furtwangler Beethoven 9th (Bayreuth)
2. Guilini Don Giovanni (EMI)
3. Gobbi/Karajan Falstaff

Allan Kohrman
Newton, MA

[David7Gable]

Post by Allan Kohrman
1. Furtwangler Beethoven 9th (Bayreuth)
2. Guilini Don Giovanni (EMI)
3. Gobbi/Karajan Falstaff

Haven't heard no. 1 in ages, but I think no. 2 is overrated myself: I've never
understood the consensus in favor of it. Karajan's Falstaff is not my
favorite, but I'm not sure I'd call it a turkey. Curious what your objections
to it are. (I've yet to hear a Falstaff that I preferred to Toscanini/NBC SO,
and, believe me, I've tried, if only because it would be nice to have one in
better sound. My latest disappointment was the Cetra with Taddei and Rossi. A
perfectly routine performance with no distinguishing virtues.)

-david gable

[Ssg217]

That Furtwaengler's 1951 9th would be a turkey is, imho, ludicrous. Granted,
it's a live recording and there are moments of sloppy playing and some of the
soloists or the fourth horn-player are not the best on record. But, if there
would be no other WF version on record, this would still be my favorite among
all the others.

FWIW: I never "understood" the Ninth, despite having as a teenager Karajan,
Bohm, Toscanini and Georgescu's versions, until I heard my first (and only at
the time) Furtwaengler version: this one. I was shocked and awed, not so much
by the interpretation-separate-from-the-music. It was like I was hearing the
*work* for the first time.

regards,
SG

[ansermetniac]

Post by Ssg217
That Furtwaengler's 1951 9th would be a turkey is, imho, ludicrous. Granted,
it's a live recording and there are moments of sloppy playing and some of the
soloists or the fourth horn-player are not the best on record. But, if there
would be no other WF version on record, this would still be my favorite among
all the others.

It is traditional for the first horn player to play this solo.
Beethoven wrote it for the fourth because he was the only one who had
one of those new fangled horns with valves.

Abbedd

Post by Ssg217
FWIW: I never "understood" the Ninth, despite having as a teenager Karajan,
Bohm, Toscanini and Georgescu's versions, until I heard my first (and only at
the time) Furtwaengler version: this one. I was shocked and awed, not so much
by the interpretation-separate-from-the-music. It was like I was hearing the
*work* for the first time.
regards,
SG

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"Knowing what without knowing why is not knowing what"
"If Music is important,then anti-Musicality is even more important"
___________________________________________________
"I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made."
FDR

[David7Gable]

Post by Ssg217
I never "understood" the Ninth

[ . . . ]

Post by Ssg217
until I heard my first (and only at
the time) Furtwaengler version

But you can never know whether the understanding came as a result of finally
hearing the piece enough times or because of a "revelatory" intrepretation.
I'm skeptical of the concept of "revelatory" as applied to performances since
virtually any performance reveals most of any given work. I'm also curious
whether you believe it's possible for anybody to understand the 9th without
ever hearing a Furtwaengler performance or any other performance in the same
mold.

-david gable

[Ssg217]

Post by David7Gable

Post by Ssg217
I never "understood" the Ninth

[ . . . ]

Post by Ssg217
until I heard my first (and only at
the time) Furtwaengler version

But you can never know whether the understanding came as a result of finally
hearing the piece enough times or because of a "revelatory" intrepretation.

I do know. I knew the notes already. By "understanding" I (also) mean being
captivated. convinced, awed, shocked, touched etc. by the "whole" of a work.
Getting its "meaning".

Post by David7Gable
I'm skeptical of the concept of "revelatory" as applied to performances since
virtually any performance reveals most of any given work.

I know you are. And you know I am skeptical of your skepticism (-:.

Post by David7Gable
I'm also curious
whether you believe it's possible for anybody to understand the 9th without
ever hearing a Furtwaengler performance or any other performance in the same
mold.

Yes. That was *my* experience.

regards,
SG

[David7Gable]

Post by Ssg217
I knew the notes already.

But one hears all the notes in any piece the first time one hears it. One
doesn't necessarily grasp all the connections among them that, in fact,
constitute the music in it.

You also didn't answer my last question, not that it matters terribly.

By the way, I don't know what the German idealilst concept of "meaning" means
with reference to a piece of music.

-david gable

[Johannes Roehl]

Post by David7Gable

Post by Ssg217
I knew the notes already.

But one hears all the notes in any piece the first time one hears it. One
doesn't necessarily grasp all the connections among them that, in fact,
constitute the music in it.
You also didn't answer my last question, not that it matters terribly.
By the way, I don't know what the German idealilst concept of "meaning" means
with reference to a piece of music.

You can work that out experimentally: Listen to Furtwaengler's and
Toscanini's recordngs of the 9th simultaneously (I 'd suggest Furty on
the right, Toscanini on the left channel) to get the ideal dialectical
synthesis.
If you have done it properly you'll get a very fuzzy feeling in the
head, exactly the same as after reading a few pages of Hegel...

SCNR

Johannes

[David7Gable]

Post by Johannes Roehl
You can work that out experimentally: Listen to Furtwaengler's and
Toscanini's recordngs of the 9th simultaneously (I 'd suggest Furty on
the right, Toscanini on the left channel) to get the ideal dialectical
synthesis.

If I did that, I might lose what little grip on reality I still have.

-david gable

[David7Gable]

Post by Ssg217
I do know.

So there is an exact clone of you who had the exact same life experiences you
had up to the point when you heard that Furtwaengler 9th, a clone who heard
some other 9th at the same moment you heard Furtwaengler's? Since there was,
we can discover whether both of you finally grasped the piece or whether only
the one who heard Furtwaengler finally grasped the piece.

Another question: would you ever have grasped the piece if no Furtwaengler
performance existed? The answer is, "Of course, you would have."

-david gable

[David7Gable]

Samir, I should add that I don't doubt the effect that the performance had on
you, or--this is a separate question--the sincerity with which you make claims
that, for me, remain logically untenable.

-david gable

[Simon Roberts]

Post by David7Gable
Samir, I should add that I don't doubt the effect that the performance had on
you, or--this is a separate question--the sincerity with which you make claims
that, for me, remain logically untenable.

Your problem surely isn't with his logic, is it? Rather, it seems to me that
you and Samir have different conceptions of what a piece of music is, of what it
"means," of what it means to "get" it (etc.). I.e., your premises are
different.

(My experience is similar to Samir's, only in reverse. By some odd quirk the
first performance of the 9th I heard, the first I got to know at all, was
Furtwangler 1942. I subsequently heard several others, by which time I knew the
piece better in some sense, which all sounded somehow wrong to me. Most still
do (even though it's in no sense a model of how I think it ought to go).)

Simon

[David7Gable]

Your problem surely isn't with his [Samir's] logic, is it?

It would be if I could push Samir so far as to say that he would never ever
have "gotten" the 9th if it were not for hearing a performance like that
particular Furtwaengler performance.

It is also a question of logic if Samir discounts--presumably he does not, but
you never know--the role of repeated listening to no matter what
performances--or playing through it at the piano, as he's no doubt done--in
coming to terms with any given piece.

But it is true that I'm allergic to the particular "mystical" view of music and
of the performance of it that I rightly or wrong attribute to Samir.

Different views of what music is or not, there is a fundamental core musical
aspect of music that is shared to one degree or another by everybody who comes
to terms with any given piece despite whatever mystical, metaphorical,
mythological, etc. interpretations we grant the experience with our words
within our somewhat but never entirely divergent acculturated frameworks.

-david gable

[Andrew T. Kay]

Post by David7Gable

Post by Allan Kohrman
1. Furtwangler Beethoven 9th (Bayreuth)
2. Guilini Don Giovanni (EMI)
3. Gobbi/Karajan Falstaff

Haven't heard no. 1 in ages, but I think no. 2 is overrated myself: I've never
understood the consensus in favor of it. Karajan's Falstaff is not my
favorite, but I'm not sure I'd call it a turkey. Curious what your objections
to it are.

I recall him writing that he finds Gobbi vocally inadequate for the title role,
but I should let him answer. There may be more than that.

I am, alas, on the side of opinion that has made his turkeys 2 and (especially)
3 consensus choices. And while I like them rather less than those two, I also
find indispensable the first three of your turkeys -- C. Kleiber TRAV, Giulini
CARLO, and Karajan BOHEME -- although all three have elements I must put up
with in order to enjoy the things I like. (The CARLO, for example, which I
revisited yesterday, has three pallid lower male voices, and only Foiani does
anything by way of vocal acting to make up ground. Raimondi's lowest notes are
barely there, and even with that aside, the smooth, mild-mannered young man we
hear is hardly my idea of a commanding Filippo. Of course, the conducting could
use a B12 shot or two -- the contemplative passages and the overall aura of
gloom and menace are beautifully evoked, but the "good old-fashioned Italian
opera" interludes, such as the tenor/baritone duet, are too reserved and
rhythmically cushioned. And Caballé spends the whole set in her "exquisite
sleepwalker" mode, and this ain't Amina, although on the plus side she's in
splendid vocal estate and on best musical behavior. It's hard not to enjoy the
sounds she makes, especially in that last duet with Domingo.)

Post by David7Gable
(I've yet to hear a Falstaff that I preferred to Toscanini/NBC
SO,
and, believe me, I've tried, if only because it would be nice to have one in
better sound. My latest disappointment was the Cetra with Taddei and Rossi.
A
perfectly routine performance with no distinguishing virtues.)

When I eventually give in and start ordering additional Verdi CDs, I want to
hear this:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//AN3080.htm

--Todd K

[David7Gable]

Todd,

Just in case you don't already know, the reason Carlos Kleiber's Traviata and
Giulini's EMI Don Carlo make my turkey list is the conductors. CK's singers
are fine. I have very little use for any of Giulini's except Domingo and
Verrett, and Domingo is livelier and more involved under Abbado. At least he
and Verrett bring some energy to the proceedings. And Domingo not only sings
like an angel: his voice is of the proper weight for Carlo and rings out
thrillingly.

I wouldn't say the same of Caballé's, which lacks the vocal heft for Verdi's
more imposing climaxes. In any case, Caballé's beautiful singing never has
been and never will be enough to justify the general listlessness and blandness
characteristic of her performances with their inevitable indiscriminate resort
to spun sugar high notes for the sake of spun sugar. What is particularly
unforgivable in her case is that there is some evidence from her earliest
recordings and her live mid-60's Lucrezia Borgia that she did have some
imagination, at least a spark of life (See the Verdi rarities set, for
example). Where is Herva Nelli when you really need her? (Or Callas or Gencer
or Rysanek or . . . )

But it's Giulini who is the real criminal in the case of this inert and
soft-edged Don Carlo. I certainly don't experience any more gloom or menace in
the Goo-lini set than you would find in any performance that used Verdi's
notes. If Verdi's edges were softened any further, the Escorial would collapse
under its own weight.

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//AN3080.htm [URL for Andante Falstaff

set]

Todd, odds are good this will turn up at Berkshire after they've sold a couple
dozen copies at extortion prices.

-david gable

[Andrew T. Kay]

Post by David7Gable
Just in case you don't already know, the reason Carlos Kleiber's Traviata and
Giulini's EMI Don Carlo make my turkey list is the conductors.

Yes; I remembered.

Post by David7Gable
CK's singers
are fine. I have very little use for any of Giulini's except Domingo and
Verrett, and Domingo is livelier and more involved under Abbado.

And *e*volved. You can tell he's benefited from living with the role for the
intervening decade-plus; the voice remains in solid shape, and his French is
better than that of the other principals. (I only learned recently that,
according to him, it was his idea to do it in French.) It's an underrated piece
of work on his part.

Post by David7Gable
At least he
and Verrett bring some energy to the proceedings. And Domingo not only sings
like an angel: his voice is of the proper weight for Carlo and rings out
thrillingly.
I wouldn't say the same of Caballé's, which lacks the vocal heft for Verdi's
more imposing climaxes.

But that's even more the case with the lyric voices of Freni and Ricciarelli,
among those who've essayed the part on complete sets of this opera. Solti's
Tebaldi had the right natural endowment, but brings other problems with her (as
discussed elsewhere recently), especially as recorded relatively late in the
day. Talking of "vocal heft" alone, probably the best I've heard Elisabetta's
music filled out on any of the reasonably complete recordings is by Jurinac on
the live Karajan four-act (with Siepi, Simionato, Bastianini, et al) and by
Mattila on the Pappano/EMI (but hers is the only performance there I really
like, and the conducting is too dainty for my taste, not helped by a distant
recording).

Post by David7Gable
In any case, Caballé's beautiful singing never has
been and never will be enough to justify the general listlessness and blandness
characteristic of her performances with their inevitable indiscriminate resort
to spun sugar high notes for the sake of spun sugar. What is particularly
unforgivable in her case is that there is some evidence from her earliest
recordings and her live mid-60's Lucrezia Borgia that she did have some
imagination, at least a spark of life

Oh, I think there's a spark of life on some of her recordings of the 1970s,
including the Muti AIDA and PURITANI. Neither is a master-class in Callasian
subtlety of expression, but she's not on auto-pilot -- she seems to be making
an effort to vary what she does in response to the shifting musical-dramatic
context. But your criticism is on target as regards this CARLO, even though I
may enjoy her singing there more than you do.

--Todd K

[David7Gable]

Todd said of Domingo's assumption of Don Carlos on the French-language set with

Post by Andrew T. Kay
It's an underrated piece
of work on his part.

It most certainly is. One of his best performances. (Another even more
underappreciated and indeed virtually unheard performance from Domingo is his
incomparable Bénédict in the Béatrice et Bénédict with Barenboim. Just using
the slimmest pretext to plug it since it's also one of my favorite operas. )

->But that's even more the case with the lyric voices of Freni and Ricciarelli,

Post by Andrew T. Kay
among those who've essayed the part on complete sets of this opera.

Yeah, but I love Ricciarelli.

-david gable

[David7Gable]

Post by Andrew T. Kay
Oh, I think there's a spark of life on some of her recordings of the 1970s,
including the Muti AIDA and PURITANI.

Unfortunately, I just can't take Caballé seriously as a Bellinian after hearing
Callas sing, say, "Qui la voce." Moreover, a harsh edge has already begun to
enter Caballé's voice under pressure by the point of that Puritani--it's later
than the Aida--and she slightly undermines the absolutely stunning "A te, o,
cara" of Kraus and Muti with both that harsh edge and the slightly ungainly way
in which she slides off her high notes. What I wouldn't give for this Puritani
with the Callas of circa 1951 substituted for Caballé as Elvira. (The EMI
Puritani with Callas and Di Stefano is, in various ways, a mess.)

There. I've done my bit for Muti.

-david gable

[Andrew T. Kay]

A minor clarification re: Giulini's DON CARLO, in case anyone cares. When I
wrote earlier of my displeasure with its "three pallid lower male voices," I
was referring to Filippo, the Grand Inquisitor, and the relatively small but
important role of the Friar/Charles V. The baritone Milnes's voice is decidedly
not pallid, and his performance is actually pretty good vis-a-vis other
Rodrigos on complete sets (a bit hammy and blunt, not as penetrating as Gobbi
or as charming as Bastianini, but he's in excellent vocal shape, and there's a
nicely done death rattle at the end of his Act IV swan song if you want that
sort of thing).


--Todd K

[David7Gable]

Post by Andrew T. Kay
A minor clarification re: Giulini's DON CARLO, in case anyone cares.

I have my doubts whether anybody reads our endless discussion of the minutiae
of recordings of Italian opera, but it's fun to read you and even more fun to
write with the knowledge that at least one person will read you with some
interest.

Post by Andrew T. Kay
The baritone Milnes's voice is decidedly
not pallid, and his performance is actually pretty good vis-a-vis other
Rodrigos on complete sets

I agree with everything you wrote about Milnes. I always like him more than I
feel I should. Then again, pace certain members of an older generation on
another newsgroup, he was generally more interesting than Robert Merrill. (On
the other hand, Merrill's Rodrigo in the 1950 Met Don Carlo with Bjoerling and
Stiedry is pretty good in that he's more involved than usual. You know it?)

-david gable

[Andrew T. Kay]

David Gable wrote:

[...]

Post by David7Gable
pace certain members of an older generation on
another newsgroup, he was generally more interesting than Robert Merrill.

Agreed.

I wish, though, that his (Milnes's) zenith had lasted longer than it did. By
the time of the Maag LUISA MILLER from the mid-1970s, he's already sounding
alarmingly worn, with dicier intonation and more of a wobble than you'd expect
considering that he wasn't quite 40. This is not to say everything after that
date should be avoided -- he shows much improved control on the subsequent
Levine FORZA, and sings/declaims a splendid Jack Rance for Mehta -- but that's
the date at which he becomes unpredictable, and it's unfortunate that he was
left to get by on charisma, knowhow, and lingering goodwill by the time he got
around to Boccanegra (potentially his great role) at the MET in the 1980s. He
just didn't have as many "best years" in him as his frequent partner Domingo.

Post by David7Gable
(On
the other hand, Merrill's Rodrigo in the 1950 Met Don Carlo with Bjoerling and
Stiedry is pretty good in that he's more involved than usual. You know it?)

Only in excerpts. I have more DON CARLOs and CARLOSes than I know what to do
with, and but there are still some out there -- and all of the live variety --
I would like to add to my collection.


--Todd K

[David7Gable]

Post by Andrew T. Kay
I have more DON CARLOs and CARLOSes than I know what to do
with, and but there are still some out there -- and all of the live variety
--I would like to add to my collection.

Don't rush to get the Rigal-Barbieri-Bjoerling-Merrill-Siepi-Stiedry Met Don
Carlo from 1950. Siepi and Barbieri were both in absolutely terrible shape
that day vocally, and Rigal is a barely adequate Elisabetta. Only Bjoerling is
everything you might expect. Merrill is the surprise: much more involved and
expressive--if only in the larger than life Italian opera manner--than usual.
I must admit Stiedry's pretty good if not the second coming.

For years I looked forward to hearing this performance because of childhood
exposure to the gloriously sung Bjoerling-Merrill recording of "Dio, che
nell'alma infondere." Not only that but I'm Siepi's biggest fan. You can't
imagine my disappointment. (No Act I, but that goes without saying.)

-david gable

[Allan Kohrman]

I find Gobbi inadequately powered for a role like Falstaff. I much prefer
Leo9nard Warren in either the Met performance with Reiner or the New Orleans
performance with Cellini.

I find Toscanini's Falstaff with Valdengo magical and would never be without
it. (I don't care for Stabile, whom I also find underpowered.) Finally, I
am among the few who enjoy Abbado and Terfel a great deal. If I had to
recommend one recording to a beginner, I'm not sure what I would do; it
might be the Abbado simply because of availability.

I might mention one more Turkey: the Guilini Verdi Requiem--another
consensus choice I don't care for. The critic Michael Steinberg once called
Schwarzkopf "lucidrously inappropriate." I never cared much for Steinberg's
strong language, but here I agre with him.

Allan Kohrman
Newton, MA

Post by David7Gable

Post by Allan Kohrman
1. Furtwangler Beethoven 9th (Bayreuth)
2. Guilini Don Giovanni (EMI)
3. Gobbi/Karajan Falstaff

Haven't heard no. 1 in ages, but I think no. 2 is overrated myself: I've never
understood the consensus in favor of it. Karajan's Falstaff is not my
favorite, but I'm not sure I'd call it a turkey. Curious what your objections
to it are. (I've yet to hear a Falstaff that I preferred to Toscanini/NBC SO,
and, believe me, I've tried, if only because it would be nice to have one in
better sound. My latest disappointment was the Cetra with Taddei and Rossi. A
perfectly routine performance with no distinguishing virtues.)
-david gable

[David7Gable]

Post by Allan Kohrman
I much prefer
Leo9nard Warren in either the Met performance with Reiner or the New Orleans
performance with Cellini.

I've always wanted to hear the Warren/Cellini and may well yet: I'm a big fan
of both musicians, although I must admit to admiring Gobbi as well.

Post by Allan Kohrman
The critic Michael Steinberg once called
Schwarzkopf "lucidrously inappropriate." [for the Verdi Requiem in Giulini's

recording]

I admit she's not the most Italianate soprano to come down the pike, but I
think she's on reasonably good behavior here, much less precious and mannered
than when singing, say, Richard Strauss.

-david gable

[William Sommerwerck]

Leonard Bernstein conducting "Das Lied von der Erde" on Decca. He makes a piece
about the emptiness of material existance into an upbeat pro-life statement.

[graham]

Post by David7Gable
Traviata w/Carlos Kleiber
Don Carlo w/Giulini
Bohème w/Karajan
Anything w/Pinnock
Bach cantatas w/Rifkin
Any Mussorgsky w/Christoff
Boulez's late studio Mahler
-david gable

Tureck's Goldbergs.

gd

[Phil Garon]

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?

Two that come to mind are:

* Lenny's recording of "West Side Story," with Carreras and the opera
stars. The most unidiomatic performances of Broadway show tunes
imaginable.

* Barbara Hendricks, accompanied by the Labecque Sisters on piano,
murdering Gershwin songs. Ditto.

pgaron

[Bill McCutcheon]

Post by Phil Garon

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?

* Lenny's recording of "West Side Story," with Carreras and the opera
stars. The most unidiomatic performances of Broadway show tunes
imaginable.
* Barbara Hendricks, accompanied by the Labecque Sisters on piano,
murdering Gershwin songs. Ditto.
pgaron

Re WST ... isn't there a similar, equally horrendous, recording of "South
Pacific?" I seem to remember hearing a tenor in the lead bass/baritone
role. [Wasn't that character, played by Ezio Pinza in the movie, named
Labecque, BTW?]
-- Bill McC.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"Bill McCutcheon" <***@earthlink.net> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:l1Kpd.126$6K5.52

Post by Bill McCutcheon

Post by Phil Garon

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?

* Lenny's recording of "West Side Story," with Carreras and the opera
stars. The most unidiomatic performances of Broadway show tunes
imaginable.
* Barbara Hendricks, accompanied by the Labecque Sisters on piano,
murdering Gershwin songs. Ditto.
pgaron

Re WST ... isn't there a similar, equally horrendous, recording of "South
Pacific?" I seem to remember hearing a tenor in the lead bass/baritone
role. [Wasn't that character, played by Ezio Pinza in the movie, named
Labecque, BTW?]
-- Bill McC.

Emile de Becque. Jose Carreras and Kiri Te Kanawa did the recording. I've
never had the heart to buy it and listen to it.

[Bill McCutcheon]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:l1Kpd.126$6K5.52

Post by Bill McCutcheon

Post by Phil Garon

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?

* Lenny's recording of "West Side Story," with Carreras and the opera
stars. The most unidiomatic performances of Broadway show tunes
imaginable.
* Barbara Hendricks, accompanied by the Labecque Sisters on piano,
murdering Gershwin songs. Ditto.
pgaron

Re WST ... isn't there a similar, equally horrendous, recording of "South
Pacific?" I seem to remember hearing a tenor in the lead bass/baritone
role. [Wasn't that character, played by Ezio Pinza in the movie, named
Labecque, BTW?]
-- Bill McC.

Emile de Becque. Jose Carreras and Kiri Te Kanawa did the recording.
I've
never had the heart to buy it and listen to it.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!

Thanks, Matthew, for the confirmation and clarification. Those are the
same leads from the West Side Story fiasco. I've heard parts of both on
the radio ... hideous! IIRC, South Pacific includes Mandy Patinkin and
his high tenor (alto?) as Ens. Cable ... also hideous!

I don't think you need heart to listen to either of these. Nerve,
fortified by alcohol, is what's required.

-- Bill McC.

[Jon A Conrad]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper

Post by Bill McCutcheon
Re WST ... isn't there a similar, equally horrendous, recording of "South
Pacific?" I seem to remember hearing a tenor in the lead bass/baritone
role. [Wasn't that character, played by Ezio Pinza in the movie, named
Labecque, BTW?]

Emile de Becque. Jose Carreras and Kiri Te Kanawa did the recording. I've
never had the heart to buy it and listen to it.

I own it, but thankfully didn't have to buy it (I reviewed it for OPUS).
It's just so wrong in almost every way. Two exceptions, if one can listen
selectively: there's nothing wrong with the great Jonathan Tunick's
conducting, and Mandy Patinkin (whom I've come to abhor in years since,
but this was back in the 80s) singing "Younger than Springtime" is exactly
right -- the one member of the cast of whom this can be said.

My own turkeys:

* Maxim Shostakovich conducting dad's Symphony No. 5: this was recommended
in print very enthusiastically, so I bought it. Maybe the interpretation
could indeed be profitably studied by a conducting student; but how can
that be divorced from the raucously awful orchestral playing? Luckily my
LP had a scratch, and when I returned it the store let me exchange it for
something else.

* It's been said before, but: the Westminster RING. People talk about the
hilariously kitschy covers, but I actually listened to the damn thing,
every note (in the line of duty, to write about it). Woozy pacing and
ensemble, wavery woodwinds, blasting brass, and (along with a couple
tolerable singers) a Siegfried and Brunnhilde who are just grindingly
relenteless, and a Sieglinde who's maybe the ghastliest professional
singer on records.

Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
***@udel.edu

[david gideon]

Post by Bill McCutcheon
[Wasn't that character, played by Ezio Pinza in the movie, named
Labecque, BTW?]

He was played in the movie by Rossano Brazzi (with the voice of Giorgio
Tozzi).

dg

[Bill McCutcheon]

Post by david gideon

Post by Bill McCutcheon
[Wasn't that character, played by Ezio Pinza in the movie, named
Labecque, BTW?]

He was played in the movie by Rossano Brazzi (with the voice of Giorgio
Tozzi).
dg

Oops! Except for the names of the actor, singer, and character, I got all
the rest right. :-)

They say your memory is the first thing to go when you get older. I
forget what's second.

-- Bill McC.

[Tobias Broeker]

Post by Phil Garon

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?

* Lenny's recording of "West Side Story," with Carreras and the opera
stars. The most unidiomatic performances of Broadway show tunes
imaginable.
* Barbara Hendricks, accompanied by the Labecque Sisters on piano,
murdering Gershwin songs. Ditto.
pgaron

So, I would say Necil Kazim Akses or Ulvi Cemal Erkin, because the
rest you all mentioned are no Turkeys......







Huuuuhhh, that was funny....

[Spam Scone]

Post by Phil Garon

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?

* Lenny's recording of "West Side Story," with Carreras and the opera
stars. The most unidiomatic performances of Broadway show tunes
imaginable.
* Barbara Hendricks, accompanied by the Labecque Sisters on piano,
murdering Gershwin songs. Ditto.
pgaron

Three others on the same lines:

Jessye Norman's "With a Song in My Heart" CD. Her rendition of "I Love
Paris" is dreadful.

von Stade's "To Keep My Love Alive" on her Rodgers and Hart disc may
be her worst performance. She sounds like she is sight-reading.

And even worse than these two is Maureen McGovern's pathetic attempt
to sing "Glitter and Be Gay" on one of those mid-1980's Richard Kapp
"Greatest Hits of ..." albums. May it slumber for eternity in the Sony
vaults.

[ansermetniac]

Post by Spam Scone

Post by Phil Garon

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?

* Lenny's recording of "West Side Story," with Carreras and the opera
stars. The most unidiomatic performances of Broadway show tunes
imaginable.
* Barbara Hendricks, accompanied by the Labecque Sisters on piano,
murdering Gershwin songs. Ditto.
pgaron

Jessye Norman's "With a Song in My Heart" CD. Her rendition of "I Love
Paris" is dreadful.
von Stade's "To Keep My Love Alive" on her Rodgers and Hart disc may
be her worst performance. She sounds like she is sight-reading.

Ella sings it very nice

Abbedd

Post by Spam Scone
And even worse than these two is Maureen McGovern's pathetic attempt
to sing "Glitter and Be Gay" on one of those mid-1980's Richard Kapp
"Greatest Hits of ..." albums. May it slumber for eternity in the Sony
vaults.

________________

Go To Abbedd's Place For the MP3S of the Week

http://home.earthlink.net/~abbedd/abbedd

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"Knowing what without knowing why is not knowing what"
"If Music is important,then anti-Musicality is even more important"
___________________________________________________
"I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made."
FDR

[Dan Koren]

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?

Toscanini and Bruno Walter.

All of them.



dk

[arri bachrach]

Post by Dan Koren

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?

Toscanini and Bruno Walter.
All of them.
dk

and don't forget the reissues of Sanchez.

AB

[Raymond Hall]

Post by arri bachrach

Post by Dan Koren

Post by ansermetniac
What are the recordings that you consider the biggest Turkeys?

Toscanini and Bruno Walter.
All of them.
dk

and don't forget the reissues of Sanchez.

Mmmmmmm. I have just ordered a batch of them, and I'll let anyone know "wot
I think" if they want to know <g> I'll try to a few comparatives with AdeL.

Should receive them next week, from Zwei, with some more of those Richter
boxes, for prezzies.

Ray H
Taree

[Iain Neill Reid]

Kathleen Battle singing Dowland - anything further from the genre would be
hard to imagine

Neill Rei - ***@stsci.edu

[David7Gable]

Post by Andrew T. Kay
I have more DON CARLOs and CARLOSes than I know what to do
with, and but there are still some out there -- and all of the live variety
--I would like to add to my collection.

Don't rush to get the Rigal-Barbieri-Bjoerling-Merrill-Siepi-Stiedry Met Don
Carlo from 1950. Siepi and Barbieri were both in absolutely terrible shape
that day vocally, and Rigal is a barely adequate Elisabetta. Only Bjoerling is
everything you might expect. Merrill is the surprise: much more involved and
expressive--if only in the larger than life Italian opera manner--than usual.
I must admit Stiedry's pretty good if not the second coming.

For years I looked forward to hearing this performance because of childhood
exposure to the gloriously sung Bjoerling-Merrill recording of "Dio, che
nell'alma infondere." Not only that but I'm Siepi's biggest fan. You can't
imagine my disappointment. (No Act I, but that goes without saying.)

-david gable