Discussion:
Tristan and Isolde
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Dan Koren
2004-11-21 10:13:12 UTC
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Recommendations please.



dk
Robert Stuhr
2004-11-21 11:30:03 UTC
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1. Tristan und Isolde (EMI or Naxos, 1952):
Flagstad, Suthaus, Thebom, Greindl, Fischer-Dieskau, Schock, Evans,

Philharmonia Orchestra, Furtwängler


2. Tristan und Isolde (DGG, 1982):
M. Price, Fassbaender, Kollo, Fischer-Dieskau,

Staatskapelle Dresden, Carlos Kleiber


3. Tristan und Isolde (Orfeo, 1952):
Vinay, Mödl, Weber, Hotter, Uhde, Faulhaber,

Bayreuther Festspielorchester, Karajan


4. Tristan und Isolde (Naxos,live, 1936):
Melchior, Flagstad, Kalter, Janssen, List,

London PO, Reiner

Nr. 1-3 are widely considered must-have-recordings (see Hermes
Opernlexikon). Nr 4 because of Lauritz Melchior.



Robert Stuhr
Post by Dan Koren
Recommendations please.
dk
Gareth Williams
2004-11-21 13:07:48 UTC
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Post by Robert Stuhr
Flagstad, Suthaus, Thebom, Greindl, Fischer-Dieskau, Schock, Evans,
Philharmonia Orchestra, Furtwängler
M. Price, Fassbaender, Kollo, Fischer-Dieskau,
Staatskapelle Dresden, Carlos Kleiber
Vinay, Mödl, Weber, Hotter, Uhde, Faulhaber,
Bayreuther Festspielorchester, Karajan
Melchior, Flagstad, Kalter, Janssen, List,
London PO, Reiner
I'd add Böhm's (Bayreuth 1966) recording to that list - second only to
the Furtwängler in my view. The excellent Reginald Goodall recording
deserves a return to the catalogue and is well worth looking out for.
--
Regards, Gareth Williams
Tom Deacon
2004-11-21 14:04:53 UTC
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Post by Robert Stuhr
Melchior, Flagstad, Kalter, Janssen, List,
London PO, Reiner
Seconded.

TD
Post by Robert Stuhr
Post by Dan Koren
Recommendations please.
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-11-21 17:40:12 UTC
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Post by Robert Stuhr
Melchior, Flagstad, Kalter, Janssen, List,
London PO, Reiner
Nr. 1-3 are widely considered must-have-recordings (see Hermes
Opernlexikon). Nr 4 because of Lauritz Melchior.
Fine though that one is, if you're only having one Flagstad-Melchior
performance, the one to have is from the following year, with Beecham.
(Actually two performances of the same run, conflated.) I've got it on
Archipel's "Desert Island Collection."
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Mitchell Kaufman
2004-11-23 07:16:02 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Fine though that one is, if you're only having one Flagstad-Melchior
performance, the one to have is from the following year, with Beecham.
(Actually two performances of the same run, conflated.) I've got it on
Archipel's "Desert Island Collection."
Between the Reiner and the Beecham, I've always preferred the Reiner for
reasons I can't quite explain, other than that the conducting of Reiner
seems more in touch, more of a mind with the interpretations of Flagstad
and Melchior.

Even on the Marston transfer for Naxos, however -- by all accounts the
best sonic choice for the Reiner -- one will often have to listen very
carefully to hear Melchior in Act I: he's almost constantly off-mike.
The rest of the show is engrossing enough that I can deal with the
sound; I've certainly heard plenty worse from La Scala in the '50s.

As for the *best* Flagstad-Melchior Tristan, I've got a new favorite:
the March 9, 1935 Met broadcast -- an incredible performance. Even with
all the time freed up by the healthy cuts, Bodanzky must've been rushing
to catch the 11:30 to New Haven; that said, he actually makes the quick
tempi work -- it's conducting of great fire and intensity, almost what
I'd imagine a Toscanini Tristan would sound like, yet Bodanzky seems
more flexible, more of a "singers' conductor." His sudden death must've
been a tremendous blow to the Metropolitan, especially given the fact
that his successor was the prosaic Leinsdorf.

Both Flagstad and Melchior are sensational, as great as I've ever heard
them. Flagstad is even fresher-voiced than at Covent Garden, and
Melchior simply outdoes himself with gorgeous lingering mezza voce
effects in the lyrical passages and shattering power in the climaxes.

The performance has a certain spark of excitement that the Covent Garden
recordings lack. Perhaps it was the enthusiasm following Flagstad's
spectacular debut just a few weeks before. I'd guess that nobody of our
age or younger can possibly imagine the sensation she created. This is a
souvenir of those exciting days.

The sound is what it is. One has to take a lot of both the singing and
orchestral work on faith. The former is again affected by the singers
wandering on and off mike, and the boxiness of orchestral sound makes
for loss of color and nuance.

Still, I find it more listenable than the Reiner: the singers are in
general more closely-miked and can be heard more of the time; as for the
orchestral sound, both recordings are fairly wretched. If you're
familiar with the sound of other 1935 Met broadcasts -- the Ponselle
Traviata or the Tibbett Rigoletto, for example -- the Met recording is
about on par with those: excruciatingly bad sound by normal standards,
but experienced listeners should be able to hear through the muck.

Flagstad and Melchior are of course the draw here. We can go another
century or two and still not hear Wagnerian singing like this again. I'm
very happy to have it all on CD in any form.

The set is the product of an outfit called the West Hill Radio Archives,
the proprietor of which is one Don Hill. It has been intermittently
available on eBay. The artwork and annotation are very professionally
done. Considerable time, effort, and affection was clearly lavished on
this project. Here's the label and catalog number:

West Hill Radio Archives WHRA 6001 3 2003

Assuming the prospective listener is acquainted with the sound of murky
antediluvian broadcasts, this is very highly-recommended.

Of course, to get back to the original question, should this be one's
first or only Tristan? Certainly not. I can't imagine a recording with
so much of the score missing and with such poor sound serving as one's
reference or introduction to the work.

For me, the near-ideal would be the Böhm on DG, which in additon to its
other merits should satisfy Mr. Koren in the soprano department (Birgit
Nilsson). After that, perhaps the Furtwängler/Flagstad, for the great
conducting (albeit less intense than his live work) and the soprano in
excellent late form (those famous non-high C's aside), all in good mono
studio sound.

Of course, it's a faint echo of the Flagstad of 1935 vintage. So I do
think Mr. Koren would want to get at least one of the Flagstad -
Melchior recordings later, if only to hear how the music can be sung by
two superhuman voices born to sing it, both at their absolute peaks.

MK
Dan Koren
2004-11-22 01:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Thanks.

Are these in any particular order?

BTW I only care about the soprano.

Who in your opinion(s) sang the
best Isolde? Mado Robin?


Thx,



dk
Post by Robert Stuhr
Flagstad, Suthaus, Thebom, Greindl, Fischer-Dieskau, Schock, Evans,
Philharmonia Orchestra, Furtwängler
M. Price, Fassbaender, Kollo, Fischer-Dieskau,
Staatskapelle Dresden, Carlos Kleiber
Vinay, Mödl, Weber, Hotter, Uhde, Faulhaber,
Bayreuther Festspielorchester, Karajan
Melchior, Flagstad, Kalter, Janssen, List,
London PO, Reiner
Nr. 1-3 are widely considered must-have-recordings (see Hermes
Opernlexikon). Nr 4 because of Lauritz Melchior.
Robert Stuhr
Post by Dan Koren
Recommendations please.
dk
benjo maso
2004-11-22 02:26:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Thanks.
Are these in any particular order?
BTW I only care about the soprano.
Who in your opinion(s) sang the
best Isolde? Mado Robin?
Not quite. My favorite is Helena Braun (Knappertbusch).

Benjo Maso
Dan Koren
2004-11-22 05:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by benjo maso
Post by Dan Koren
Thanks.
Are these in any particular order?
BTW I only care about the soprano.
Who in your opinion(s) sang the
best Isolde? Mado Robin?
Not quite. My favorite is Helena Braun (Knappertbusch).
Is it available?



dk
benjo maso
2004-11-22 13:00:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by benjo maso
Post by Dan Koren
Thanks.
Are these in any particular order?
BTW I only care about the soprano.
Who in your opinion(s) sang the
best Isolde? Mado Robin?
Not quite. My favorite is Helena Braun (Knappertbusch).
Is it available?
Yes, it is (in Germany).

http://www.eshopxxl.de/index-mode-classical_de-page_num-8-search_type-ArtistSearch-input_string-Hans/...+Knappertsbusch-locale-de.htmlBy the way: IMO Gertrude Grob-Prandl is as least as good as Helena Braun,but the sound of her recording (conducted by the Sabata) is really bad,although there might be transfers than the version I have (on Nuova Era).Besides, De Sabata's has some horrible cuts and although I'm not too fond ofKna's Tristan (Günther Treptow), Sabata's Tristan (Max Lorenz) is almostunbearable.Benjo Maso
EG
2004-11-22 20:31:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Thanks.
Are these in any particular order?
BTW I only care about the soprano.
Who in your opinion(s) sang the
best Isolde? Mado Robin?
Thx,
dk
The overall best T&I is the Becham archipel recording with Flagstadt
and Melchior. I hate Flagstadt, though, so if you only care about the
soprano,
I can't recommend anything off the top of my head.
But go to www.lottelehmann.org and listen online to the Liebestod.
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Robert Stuhr
Flagstad, Suthaus, Thebom, Greindl, Fischer-Dieskau, Schock, Evans,
Philharmonia Orchestra, Furtwängler
M. Price, Fassbaender, Kollo, Fischer-Dieskau,
Staatskapelle Dresden, Carlos Kleiber
Vinay, Mödl, Weber, Hotter, Uhde, Faulhaber,
Bayreuther Festspielorchester, Karajan
Melchior, Flagstad, Kalter, Janssen, List,
London PO, Reiner
Nr. 1-3 are widely considered must-have-recordings (see Hermes
Opernlexikon). Nr 4 because of Lauritz Melchior.
Robert Stuhr
Post by Dan Koren
Recommendations please.
dk
william kasimer
2004-11-21 14:48:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Recommendations please.
Bayreuth 1952 with HvK, Moedl, Vinay, on Orfeo d'Or (the best
available transfer).

But be sure to supplement with the live Dresden Act 3 with
Furtwaengler and Suthaus, vastly superior to their studio effort a few
years later.

Bill
Lena
2004-11-21 23:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by william kasimer
Post by Dan Koren
Recommendations please.
Bayreuth 1952 with HvK, Moedl, Vinay, on Orfeo d'Or (the best
available transfer).
Seconded.

Disrecommended: NT Munich DVD with Mehta, Waltraud Meier, Jon Fredric West.

The musical execution is not as good as on the best CDs, and the sets
resemble a slightly demented infant's quarters. And the direction
is blah. Any idea that Tristan and Isolde has something to do with
a whole lot of lust is dispelled when the main characters emerge
in black full-length flour sacks.

(I usually like original and interesting staging, but this one is only
original.) (Unlike the Munich Tannhauser DVD, also with Mehta and Meier.)

Lena
Andrew T. Kay
2004-11-22 05:28:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by william kasimer
Post by Dan Koren
Recommendations please.
Bayreuth 1952 with HvK, Moedl, Vinay, on Orfeo d'Or (the best
available transfer).
The Orfeo really is a fine product sonically (I'll pass over with only minimal
comment that hideous CD1/CD2 disc break), and the performance would be on my
short list too, along with Flagstad/Melchior/Reiner on Naxos and -- in the
"modern sound" category -- the Karajan studio outing on EMI, not least (but not
only) for Vickers's scarifying Tristan.
Post by william kasimer
But be sure to supplement with the live Dresden Act 3 with
Furtwaengler and Suthaus, vastly superior to their studio effort a few
years later.
I don't know that one, but I really dislike the studio recording with the
nearly-retired Flagstad. It always seemed to me a nostalgic waxwork display of
some notable Wagnerians, rather than a document of the performers in vital and
communicative form. The only thing I like about it is the young
Fischer-Dieskau's direct and rather touching Kurwenal, and I can't bring myself
to recommend a T&I for the Kurwenal, unless the person asking already has a
half dozen recordings of the piece and is wealthy.


--Todd K
William D. Kasimer
2004-11-22 15:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew T. Kay
Post by william kasimer
But be sure to supplement with the live Dresden Act 3 with
Furtwaengler and Suthaus, vastly superior to their studio effort a few
years later.
I don't know that one, but I really dislike the studio recording with the
nearly-retired Flagstad. It always seemed to me a nostalgic waxwork display of
some notable Wagnerians, rather than a document of the performers in vital and
communicative form.
I agree, which is why I didn't recommend it. The 1947 Dresden
peformance is white-hot, though - a pity that it isn't complete, but
most of Act 3 is there.

Bill
Paul Ilechko
2004-11-21 15:37:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Recommendations please.
Don't do it.
Dan Koren
2004-11-22 01:19:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by Dan Koren
Recommendations please.
Don't do it.
Don't do what?

Don't do Tristan?

Don't do Isolde?

Don't do Wagner?




dk
Paul Ilechko
2004-11-22 13:34:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by Dan Koren
Recommendations please.
Don't do it.
Don't do what?
Don't do Tristan?
Don't do Isolde?
Don't do Wagner?
you're a smart puppy, you can figure it out
Dan Koren
2004-11-22 15:22:18 UTC
Permalink
I will have my lawyer look into the matter.

I'm no puppy.



dk
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by Dan Koren
Recommendations please.
Don't do it.
Don't do what?
Don't do Tristan?
Don't do Isolde?
Don't do Wagner?
you're a smart puppy, you can figure it out
David7Gable
2004-11-22 00:01:52 UTC
Permalink
While you're at it, track down the live recording of the Liebestod with Callas
and Votto from Athens. It's sung in Italian but absolutely sensational.
(She's in better shape vocally in the 1949 Cetra recording, but incomparably
more vivid in Athens.)

-david gable
Dan Koren
2004-12-01 08:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by David7Gable
While you're at it, track down the live recording of the Liebestod with Callas
and Votto from Athens. It's sung in Italian but absolutely sensational.
(She's in better shape vocally in the 1949 Cetra recording, but incomparably
more vivid in Athens.)
Got it.

Thanks.



dk
Dan Koren
2004-12-05 20:05:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Recommendations please.
Many thanks to all who responded.


dk

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