Should discographies list 'pirates'?

[g***@gmail.com]

I'm curious to know what people think about this question. I've posted
some thoughts at www.grunin.com/eroica/pirates.htm, but I'm very
interested in other points of view.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

If it wasn't for pirate recordings, there would be no way to hear performers who often performed together on stage but never recorded in the the studio together because they had recording contracts with rival recording companies.

[g***@gmail.com]

I'm curious to know what people think about this question. I've posted
some thoughts at www.grunin.com/eroica/pirates.htm, but I'm very
interested in other points of view.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

For a rather lengthy discussion of pirate recordings:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.music.classical/tosca$20mitropoulos%7Csort:relevance/rec.music.classical/k53r46-vs-A/p5OHwD9Eg18J

[m***@cloud9.net]

I'm curious to know what people think about this question. I've posted
some thoughts at www.grunin.com/eroica/pirates.htm, but I'm very
interested in other points of view.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

Hi,

DG recently released a set of Evgeny Kissin's Beethoven sonatas. It contains the Moonlight Sonata as recorded by an amateur recordist, as Mr. Kissin himself chose it over his studio recording.

Many of Sviatoslav Richter's recordings are unofficial. "Pirate" is an unfortunate term, as there is really no money to be made with these activities, which are usually a labor of love of music.

Mort Linder

[Frank Berger]

Post by m***@cloud9.net

I'm curious to know what people think about this question. I've posted
some thoughts at www.grunin.com/eroica/pirates.htm, but I'm very
interested in other points of view.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

Hi,
DG recently released a set of Evgeny Kissin's Beethoven sonatas. It contains the Moonlight Sonata as recorded by an amateur recordist, as Mr. Kissin himself chose it over his studio recording.
Many of Sviatoslav Richter's recordings are unofficial. "Pirate" is an unfortunate term, as there is really no money to be made with these activities, which are usually a labor of love of music.
Mort Linder

Are defining"pirate" as I would? I.E, someone who sells or distributes
material without permission where someone else holds the copyright? Do you think
that Grammaphono 2000, Memories, AS Disc, Ermitage, Intaglio, Nuovo Era,
Stradivarius, Bells of St. Florian, Documents, Tim (same as Documents?),
Andromeda, Archipel, Arkadia, Arlecchino, Artists....OK, I'm looking at my own
collection and haven't gotten out of the A's yet. Or are you including outfits
that only release public demain material? I wouldn't call them pirates.

[Randy Lane]

I would distinguish "bootleg" from "pirate". Bootleg being generally broadcasts not officially released by the artist. Discos should include bootlegs IMHO.

[Frank Berger]

Post by Randy Lane
I would distinguish "bootleg" from "pirate". Bootleg being generally broadcasts not officially released by the artist. Discos should include bootlegs IMHO.

Why is there a difference? Doesn't somebody have legal rights to a concert
broadcast? Is it legal for me to record a radio broadcast and then sell copies?
I know the term "bootleg" is used that way, but I don't immediately see a
legal/moral distinction. Webster defines bootleg as "an unauthorized audio or
video recording." This implies, I think that somebody owns the rights. That
makes a bootlegger indistinguishable from a pirate doesn't it?

[Invocation]

Things can be complicated regarding this rather grey area. Ermitage and Aura do have authorization from mainly Swiss Radio, and Stradivarius from RAI. Others, well, most of those labels are located in area/country with a rather loose copyright law and their publication of historical recordings are often things in the public domain.

Now back to the original question. I think for a discography, the major task is to record down what has been published on disc, while the quality/source of the recording itself is another issue. It is more of defining what is regarded as a "disc" --- does private issues count? As some other posts mentioned, even DG and Sony publish bootleg recordings so should those be ruled out? Also it is hard to judge, even when a recording is from broadcast, whether it has the proper license for publication or whether it need (if the recording is in public domain). As a compiler of a discography, I do not think this task can be done so the wise way is to let it go.



在 2018年4月23日星期一 UTC-4下午3:27:56，Frank Berger写道：

Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@cloud9.net

I'm curious to know what people think about this question. I've posted
some thoughts at www.grunin.com/eroica/pirates.htm, but I'm very
interested in other points of view.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

Hi,
DG recently released a set of Evgeny Kissin's Beethoven sonatas. It contains the Moonlight Sonata as recorded by an amateur recordist, as Mr. Kissin himself chose it over his studio recording.
Many of Sviatoslav Richter's recordings are unofficial. "Pirate" is an unfortunate term, as there is really no money to be made with these activities, which are usually a labor of love of music.
Mort Linder

Are defining"pirate" as I would? I.E, someone who sells or distributes
material without permission where someone else holds the copyright? Do you think
that Grammaphono 2000, Memories, AS Disc, Ermitage, Intaglio, Nuovo Era,
Stradivarius, Bells of St. Florian, Documents, Tim (same as Documents?),
Andromeda, Archipel, Arkadia, Arlecchino, Artists....OK, I'm looking at my own
collection and haven't gotten out of the A's yet. Or are you including outfits
that only release public demain material? I wouldn't call them pirates.

[Doremi Fasolla]

Post by m***@cloud9.net

I'm curious to know what people think about this question. I've posted
some thoughts at www.grunin.com/eroica/pirates.htm, but I'm very
interested in other points of view.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

Hi,
DG recently released a set of Evgeny Kissin's Beethoven sonatas. It contains the Moonlight Sonata as recorded by an amateur recordist, as Mr. Kissin himself chose it over his studio recording.
Many of Sviatoslav Richter's recordings are unofficial. "Pirate" is an unfortunate term, as there is really no money to be made with these activities, which are usually a labor of love of music.
Mort Linder

Are defining"pirate" as I would? I.E, someone who sells or distributes
material without permission where someone else holds the copyright? Do you think
that Grammaphono 2000, Memories, AS Disc, Ermitage, Intaglio, Nuovo Era,
Stradivarius, Bells of St. Florian, Documents, Tim (same as Documents?),
Andromeda, Archipel, Arkadia, Arlecchino, Artists....OK, I'm looking at my own
collection and haven't gotten out of the A's yet. Or are you including outfits
that only release public demain material? I wouldn't call them pirates.

Well well-let us not forget that most of Richter's recordings are pirate.And this is a golden nugget!!Why leave them out?

[Frank Berger]

Post by Doremi Fasolla

Post by m***@cloud9.net

I'm curious to know what people think about this question. I've posted
some thoughts at www.grunin.com/eroica/pirates.htm, but I'm very
interested in other points of view.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

Hi,
DG recently released a set of Evgeny Kissin's Beethoven sonatas. It contains the Moonlight Sonata as recorded by an amateur recordist, as Mr. Kissin himself chose it over his studio recording.
Many of Sviatoslav Richter's recordings are unofficial. "Pirate" is an unfortunate term, as there is really no money to be made with these activities, which are usually a labor of love of music.
Mort Linder

Are defining"pirate" as I would? I.E, someone who sells or distributes
material without permission where someone else holds the copyright? Do you think
that Grammaphono 2000, Memories, AS Disc, Ermitage, Intaglio, Nuovo Era,
Stradivarius, Bells of St. Florian, Documents, Tim (same as Documents?),
Andromeda, Archipel, Arkadia, Arlecchino, Artists....OK, I'm looking at my own
collection and haven't gotten out of the A's yet. Or are you including outfits
that only release public demain material? I wouldn't call them pirates.

Well well-let us not forget that most of Richter's recordings are pirate.And this is a golden nugget!!Why leave them out?

You responded to my two year old post, but didn't answer my
question? What is the definition you are using for "pirate?"

[p***@classicalnotes.net]

One of my favorite instances along these lines is in the deluxe-priced NYP Bernstein Live box, in which the final well-filled (79:57) disc presents a 1970 concert of Gotterdammerung selections that the notes admit was taped illegally "surrepetitiously by one of the most active recordists in the 'underground,' Roger Frank," from whom the Philharmonic purchased his tape. Ironically, the stereo spread and fidelity are excellent and indeed better than most of the "official" concert broadcasts included in the box.

[Frank Berger]

Post by p***@classicalnotes.net
One of my favorite instances along these lines is in the deluxe-priced NYP Bernstein Live box, in which the final well-filled (79:57) disc presents a 1970 concert of Gotterdammerung selections that the notes admit was taped illegally "surrepetitiously by one of the most active recordists in the 'underground,' Roger Frank," from whom the Philharmonic purchased his tape. Ironically, the stereo spread and fidelity are excellent and indeed better than most of the "official" concert broadcasts included in the box.

So I guess you could say that the NYPO paying for the recording indicates
forgiveness for the crime (if it was indeed a crime).

[Bozo]

Don't most written program books, broadcasts, etc, say, " No reproduction, recording ...without the express written consent of....is prohibited. " ?

[Frank Berger]

Post by Bozo
Don't most written program books, broadcasts, etc, say, " No reproduction, recording ...without the express written consent of....is prohibited. " ?

Perhaps, but it may me a civil and not a legal violation. Need a lawyer to
chime in here.

[p***@classicalnotes.net]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Bozo
Don't most written program books, broadcasts, etc, say, " No reproduction, recording ...without the express written consent of....is prohibited. " ?

Perhaps, but it may me a civil and not a legal violation. Need a lawyer to
chime in here.

Well, it wouldn't be a crime, but rather a violation of the terms of the "license" granted by purchase of a ticket to attend a concert, which could result in exposure for damages. The irony is that in this case it turned out that the NYP was grateful that the violation occurred. I assume that as part of the agreement to purchase the tape the Philharmonic and venue waived their technical right to claim damages.

The excellence of the recording also leaves me in awe of how the illegal taping was made. Admittedly, in those less scary times concert-goers weren't carefully searched on the way in, but still ... those were the days before pocket-sized digital recorders, reliable wireless microphones, or even decent-sounding cassette decks, and one can only imagine how Frank managed with the equipment of the time. What's more, according to the notes he attended and taped three of the four repetitions of this concert and gave the producers the luxury of a choice among them (the disc is a composite of two)!

[g***@gmail.com]

I'm curious to know what people think about this question. I've posted
some thoughts at www.grunin.com/eroica/pirates.htm, but I'm very
interested in other points of view.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

Did pirates exist before the appearance of the lp?

[Jerry]

Post by g***@gmail.com

I'm curious to know what people think about this question. I've posted
some thoughts at www.grunin.com/eroica/pirates.htm, but I'm very
interested in other points of view.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

Did pirates exist before the appearance of the lp?

A great question and one that, in itself, is yet another
argument in support of inclusion of pirated recordings
in discographies. Looking forward to someone (anyone?)
who can answer this.

So on to nostalgia. My first encounter with pirated
recordings (in the LP era) was at the Discophile shop
on West 8th St. in Manhattan's Greenwich Village.
To that point, I was aware only of discs that officially
existed in Schwann, High Fidelity, etc. or sold at
Goody's or the Record Hunter. I believe there was
also a shop (whose name and exact location I can't recall,
possibly on West 44th St. between Fifth and Sixth).

I'm doubtful whether it was possible to have a viable
pirate trade during the 78 rpm era (aside from one-off
acetates) since the means of production and distribution
were probably far more limited than they were in the
post-war era.

As to whether pirated discs should be included, that
question has appeared to be settled in practice. Some of
the finest examples of discography (e.g. the excellent
series of pamphlets produced by the Danish Nationaldiskoteket
and others since) have included them. One book on the
subject (Lewis Foreman's Systematic Discography, 1974)
does not seem to address the legal question but does
point out their existence, highlight their pros and cons,
and even devotes the better part of four pages listing
sources for non-commercial or "unofficial" recordings.

Jerry

[g***@gmail.com]

I'm curious to know what people think about this question. I've posted
some thoughts at www.grunin.com/eroica/pirates.htm, but I'm very
interested in other points of view.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/10101258/Is-pirate-music-ever-justified.html