Discussion:
Top 3 Best/Worst Mahler Symphonies?
(too old to reply)
Galois
2004-12-01 19:17:32 UTC
Permalink
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
Alain Dagher
2004-12-01 19:58:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
It is simple. Mahler had a 4 symphony cycle that went: very good, great,
so-so, flawed.

So:
1: very good
2: great
3: so-so
4: flawed
5: very good
6: great
7: so-so
8: flawed
DL: very good
9: great

So we would have had to wait until the 12th to get another really good
symphony.

ad
JRsnfld
2004-12-01 20:20:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Dagher
It is simple. Mahler had a 4 symphony cycle that went: very good, great,
so-so, flawed.
1: very good
2: great
3: so-so
4: flawed
5: very good
6: great
7: so-so
8: flawed
DL: very good
9: great
So we would have had to wait until the 12th to get another really good
symphony.
ad
Very interesting theory. I see the cycle as akin to the sunspot cycle--a series
of 11 symphonies of genius followed by 11 not so good pieces. Here is the cycle
as I see it:

1. Most startling genius.
2. Most emotional genius.
3. Most cosmic genius.
4. Most exquisite genius.
5. Most extreme genius
6. Most intense genius.
7. Most unearthly genius.
8. Most ecstatic genius.
9. (Das Lied): Most soulful genius.
10. (9th) Most conflicted genius.
11. (10th) Most disturbing genius.

12-22: Biggest disappointments.

--Jeff
David7Gable
2004-12-01 21:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by JRsnfld
12-22: Biggest disappointments.
Haven't heard them yet, but I have high hopes for the late symphonies.

-david gable
Gareth Williams
2004-12-01 22:46:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by David7Gable
Post by JRsnfld
12-22: Biggest disappointments.
Haven't heard them yet, but I have high hopes for the late symphonies.
Mahler's 12th = Gurrelieder ;o)
--
Regards, Gareth Williams
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-12-02 05:13:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gareth Williams
Post by David7Gable
Post by JRsnfld
12-22: Biggest disappointments.
Haven't heard them yet, but I have high hopes for the late symphonies.
Mahler's 12th = Gurrelieder ;o)
No; Zemlinsky's Lyrische.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Gareth Williams
2004-12-02 21:17:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Gareth Williams
Post by David7Gable
Post by JRsnfld
12-22: Biggest disappointments.
Haven't heard them yet, but I have high hopes for the late symphonies.
Mahler's 12th = Gurrelieder ;o)
No; Zemlinsky's Lyrische.
How silly of me! You're absolutely correct, of course. Gurrelieder was
his 11th.
--
Regards, Gareth Williams
JRsnfld
2004-12-02 23:43:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gareth Williams
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Gareth Williams
Post by David7Gable
Post by JRsnfld
12-22: Biggest disappointments.
Haven't heard them yet, but I have high hopes for the late symphonies.
Mahler's 12th = Gurrelieder ;o)
No; Zemlinsky's Lyrische.
How silly of me! You're absolutely correct, of course. Gurrelieder was
his 11th.
No, 10 was 11--assuming you're not counting the "Die Nullte" (by Hans Rott).

--Jeff
Gareth Williams
2005-03-26 11:42:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gareth Williams
Mahler's 12th = Gurrelieder ;o)
<snip>
No, 10 was 11--assuming you're not counting the "Die Nullte" (by Hans Rott).
I'm confused and only have myself to blame.
--
Regards, Gareth Williams
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-03-26 19:27:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gareth Williams
Post by Gareth Williams
Mahler's 12th = Gurrelieder ;o)
<snip>
No, 10 was 11--assuming you're not counting the "Die Nullte" (by Hans Rott).
I'm confused and only have myself to blame.
Rott was a contemporary of Mahler, who however died quite young and crazy.
His one symphony contains some stylistic traits we associate with Mahler.

I have four recordings of it: Gerhard Samuel/Cincinnati Philharmonia
Orchestra on Hyperion (now on Helios); Leif Segerstam/Norköpping Symphony
Orchestra on Bis; Dennis Russell Davies*/Radio Symphonieorchester Wien on
cpo; and Friedemann Layer/Orchestre National de Montpellier on Naïve.

* By chance, DRD is conducting the Metropolitan Opera broadcast of _Cav_ as
I type this post.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Gerrit Stolte
2005-03-26 19:39:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Gareth Williams
Post by Gareth Williams
Mahler's 12th = Gurrelieder ;o)
<snip>
No, 10 was 11--assuming you're not counting the "Die Nullte" (by Hans Rott).
I'm confused and only have myself to blame.
Rott was a contemporary of Mahler, who however died quite young and crazy.
His one symphony contains some stylistic traits we associate with Mahler.
I have four recordings of it: Gerhard Samuel/Cincinnati Philharmonia
Orchestra on Hyperion (now on Helios); Leif Segerstam/Norköpping Symphony
Orchestra on Bis; Dennis Russell Davies*/Radio Symphonieorchester Wien on
cpo; and Friedemann Layer/Orchestre National de Montpellier on Naïve.
Which do you prefer?
--
Gerrit

"In Deutschland gilt derjenige als viel gefährlicher, der auf den Schmutz
hinweist als der, der ihn gemacht hat." (Carl von Ossietzky, 1889-1938)
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-03-26 20:39:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerrit Stolte
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Gareth Williams
Post by Gareth Williams
Mahler's 12th = Gurrelieder ;o)
<snip>
No, 10 was 11--assuming you're not counting the "Die Nullte" (by Hans Rott).
I'm confused and only have myself to blame.
Rott was a contemporary of Mahler, who however died quite young and
crazy. His one symphony contains some stylistic traits we associate
with Mahler.
I have four recordings of it: Gerhard Samuel/Cincinnati Philharmonia
Orchestra on Hyperion (now on Helios); Leif Segerstam/Norköpping
Symphony Orchestra on Bis; Dennis Russell Davies*/Radio
Symphonieorchester Wien on cpo; and Friedemann Layer/Orchestre National
de Montpellier on Naïve.
Which do you prefer?
If you're having only one, Davies*; then Segerstam, Samuel, and Layer.

* Who is even now conducting _Pag_ on the Met b'cast.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Bob Harper
2005-03-27 18:21:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Gerrit Stolte
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Gareth Williams
Post by Gareth Williams
Mahler's 12th = Gurrelieder ;o)
<snip>
No, 10 was 11--assuming you're not counting the "Die Nullte" (by Hans Rott).
I'm confused and only have myself to blame.
Rott was a contemporary of Mahler, who however died quite young and
crazy. His one symphony contains some stylistic traits we associate
with Mahler.
I have four recordings of it: Gerhard Samuel/Cincinnati Philharmonia
Orchestra on Hyperion (now on Helios); Leif Segerstam/Norköpping
Symphony Orchestra on Bis; Dennis Russell Davies*/Radio
Symphonieorchester Wien on cpo; and Friedemann Layer/Orchestre National
de Montpellier on Naïve.
Which do you prefer?
If you're having only one, Davies*; then Segerstam, Samuel, and Layer.
* Who is even now conducting _Pag_ on the Met b'cast.
May I ask why in preference to Segerstam? (I once had the Samuel, but
got rid of it hoping/assuming something better would come along.)

Bob Harper
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-03-27 18:23:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Gerrit Stolte
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Gareth Williams
Post by Gareth Williams
Mahler's 12th = Gurrelieder ;o)
<snip>
No, 10 was 11--assuming you're not counting the "Die Nullte" (by Hans Rott).
I'm confused and only have myself to blame.
Rott was a contemporary of Mahler, who however died quite young and
crazy. His one symphony contains some stylistic traits we associate
with Mahler.
I have four recordings of it: Gerhard Samuel/Cincinnati Philharmonia
Orchestra on Hyperion (now on Helios); Leif Segerstam/Norköpping
Symphony Orchestra on Bis; Dennis Russell Davies*/Radio
Symphonieorchester Wien on cpo; and Friedemann Layer/Orchestre National
de Montpellier on Naïve.
Which do you prefer?
If you're having only one, Davies*; then Segerstam, Samuel, and Layer.
* Who is even now conducting _Pag_ on the Met b'cast.
May I ask why in preference to Segerstam? (I once had the Samuel, but
got rid of it hoping/assuming something better would come along.)
Duh, I dunno, good playing, well-articulated, nice sense of what the music
is, even if it ain't "real" Mahler, excellent sound. I guess.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Roland van Gaalen
2004-12-02 00:20:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by JRsnfld
Post by Alain Dagher
It is simple. Mahler had a 4 symphony cycle that went: very good, great,
so-so, flawed.
1: very good
2: great
3: so-so
4: flawed
5: very good
6: great
7: so-so
8: flawed
DL: very good
9: great
So we would have had to wait until the 12th to get another really good
symphony.
ad
Very interesting theory. I see the cycle as akin to the sunspot cycle--a series
of 11 symphonies of genius followed by 11 not so good pieces. Here is the cycle
1. Most startling genius.
2. Most emotional genius.
3. Most cosmic genius.
4. Most exquisite genius.
5. Most extreme genius
6. Most intense genius.
7. Most unearthly genius.
8. Most ecstatic genius.
9. (Das Lied): Most soulful genius.
10. (9th) Most conflicted genius.
11. (10th) Most disturbing genius.
12-22: Biggest disappointments.
1 ruined by hollow ending, much ado about nothing
2 ruined by pompous last movement
3 ruined by pompous last movement
4 perfect
5 ruined by sentimental adagietto
6 adequate
7 crazy
8 ridiculous
9 ruined by pompous last movement
Das Lied von der Erde: almost great
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl (AT=@)
David7Gable
2004-12-02 05:19:09 UTC
Permalink
1 [is] ruined by hollow ending, much ado about nothing
2 ruined by pompous last movement
3 ruined by pompous last movement
5 ruined by sentimental adagietto
9 ruined by pompous last movement
Are the forms in any way flawed? Or are they simply the product of a
temperament entirely unlike yours? Could a perfect artwork be created by
someone who's emotional makeup utterly repelled you?

I don't think the last movement of the 1st is a completely convincing form
myself. My view of the form of the last mvmt of the 2nd is too complicated to
summarize in a sentence, but I love the choral ending. The last movement of
the 3rd strikes me as the first entirely successful single-long-crescendo form,
a crescendo built out of gradually intensifying contrapuntal developments, that
Mahler ever wrote.

-david gable
Roland van Gaalen
2004-12-03 21:31:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by David7Gable
1 [is] ruined by hollow ending, much ado about nothing
2 ruined by pompous last movement
3 ruined by pompous last movement
5 ruined by sentimental adagietto
9 ruined by pompous last movement
Are the forms in any way flawed? Or are they simply the product of a
temperament entirely unlike yours?
Maybe there is more to these particular movements than I hear.

If not, then it appears that I have a lower tolerance for easy listening
music than Mahler had.

I concede that the end of #1 is exciting, but the excitement is too
complicated when it ought to be straightforward.
Post by David7Gable
Could a perfect artwork be created by
someone who's emotional makeup utterly repelled you?
No. Impossible.
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl (AT=@)
Richy
2004-12-02 17:09:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland van Gaalen
1 ruined by hollow ending, much ado about nothing
2 ruined by pompous last movement
3 ruined by pompous last movement
4 perfect
5 ruined by sentimental adagietto
6 adequate
7 crazy
8 ridiculous
9 ruined by pompous last movement
Das Lied von der Erde: almost great
So 7 of these 10 works are either ruined or crazy or ridiculous? And
the 6th is merely adequate? Only a pompous ass would dare to be so
presumption in the presence of these great works. Instead of admitting
that you are unable to appreciate or comprehend certain aspects of
these works, you make absolute pronouncements. How pompous.
David7Gable
2004-12-04 11:04:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richy
Only a pompous ass would dare to be so
presumption in the presence of these great works
Nonsense.
Post by Richy
How pompous.
There was nothing pompous about Roland's post.

-david gable
Johannes Roehl
2004-12-01 20:34:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Dagher
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
It is simple. Mahler had a 4 symphony cycle that went: very good, great,
so-so, flawed.
1: very good
2: great
3: so-so
4: flawed
5: very good
6: great
7: so-so
8: flawed
DL: very good
9: great
So we would have had to wait until the 12th to get another really good
symphony.
LOL!
But what's flawed about the 4th? And is flawed better (like partly very
good, but with some flaws) than so-so (never rising to the level of the
better things in the flawed ones or worse?
As for the original question my 3 favs are 9, 2, DL (or if Das Lied
doesn't count 5 or 6), the three I like least 8 and 3 (but I never
really listened extensively to the 8th.

Johannes
David7Gable
2004-12-02 05:02:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johannes Roehl
But what's flawed about the 4th?
The Variation set is way too big for the rest of the symphony. Otherwise . . .

-david gable
Martha Oppenheim
2004-12-01 22:11:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Dagher
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
It is simple. Mahler had a 4 symphony cycle that went: very good, great,
so-so, flawed.
1: very good
2: great
3: so-so
4: flawed
5: very good
6: great
7: so-so
8: flawed
DL: very good
9: great
So we would have had to wait until the 12th to get another really good
symphony.
ad
No. 10, although partly speculative, just so-so? IMO the 4-symphony
cycle theory is hooey.

My favorite Mahler symphony is the one I happen to have heard last.

- Russ (not Martha)
Bob Harper
2004-12-02 01:44:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alain Dagher
Post by Alain Dagher
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
It is simple. Mahler had a 4 symphony cycle that went: very good,
great,
Post by Alain Dagher
so-so, flawed.
1: very good
2: great
3: so-so
4: flawed
5: very good
6: great
7: so-so
8: flawed
DL: very good
9: great
So we would have had to wait until the 12th to get another really good
symphony.
ad
No. 10, although partly speculative, just so-so? IMO the 4-symphony
cycle theory is hooey.
My favorite Mahler symphony is the one I happen to have heard last.
- Russ (not Martha)
Exactly. I just finished listening to Chailly's 3, and until I play
another of the symphonies, it's the best.

Bob Harper
David Royko
2004-12-01 23:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
Funny, I've been thinking about this lately, and my realization of how
I really love some of his symphonies but really have grown weary of
others.

Basically, I love:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5-adagio, 8-second mvmt, 9-adagio, 10-adagio
I have little patience any longer for:
5-all but the adagio, 6, 7, 8-first mvmt, 9-first,second,third mvmts.

So I guess I might not count as a "true" Mahler fan any more.

Dave Royko
=====
Dave Royko's Self-Promotion Department:
My book, "Voices of Children of Divorce,"
is in paperback at Amazon.com (and elsewhere):
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312254695
My CD-R trading list (jazz, bluegrass/newgrass, classical), some of
my more recent reviews & articles, and a few other things are at:
http://www.geocities.com/davidroyko/mypage.html
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-12-01 21:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
I love the 4th the most, then 1, then 8.

Can't stand 7, 5th is a puzzle, and I guess I'd have to say 6 after that.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
David7Gable
2004-12-01 21:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Least favorite by a considerable margin: no. 1
Favorites: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

I have to admit I haven't fully come to terms with Part 2 of no. 8, not once
you get past the stunning slow movement that opens it (which I love to death).
And I don't know the last movement of 6 all that well. The outer movements of
7, the first movement of 8, and the outer movements of 9 strike me as at once
the most ambitious and most fully realized movements Mahler ever wrote, but he
had already proved himself a fully mature master as early as the last movement
of 3.

I suppose I have a thing for Mahler's slow movements: I love the variation set
from 3, the Adagietto from 5, the slow movement from 6, the first 11 or 12
minutes of Part 2 of 8, and the outer movements of 9. I also love the
incredible scherzo from the 6th, which is a parody of the first movement just
as the second movement of Beethoven's Hammerklavier is a parody of the first
movement of the Hammerklavier. With it's constant cross cutting and changing
meters, it's also one of the most original things Mahler ever did. (Boulez has
a field day with the flexible tempi characteristic of this movement in a live
Mahler 6 with the BBC SO.)

The central movement of the 5th is another incredibly ambitious thing and
entirely successful, or so it seems to me. Arguably the most radical thing he
ever did, I find the first movement of the 7th endlessly fascinating. Rather
than being based on a single stable and recurrent theme or group of themes, it
depends on the constantly evolving transformations of a basic underlying shape
no single realization of which can be construed as the basic referential form.
The first movement of the 7th also marks the advent of the period in Mahler's
career when his contrapuntal writing had attained a new richness and
complexity, transformations of the theme resulting in transformations in the
character of the polyphony. The first movement of the 7th strikes me as being
much more ambitious and fully realized than the first movements of 2, 3, and 6,
although each of these is more fully realized than its predecessor. In any
case, after the first movement of the 7th, there is no technical or formal
challenge that Mahler's technique would not have been up to. God only knows
what he would have done if he'd lived longer.

The exuberantly happy vein characteristic of the last movements of 5 and 7 and
the first movement of 8 is not the best fit for me temperamentally. I find the
long opening movements of some of the earlier symphonies--2, 3, and 6--each of
which sticks fairly closely to the traditional recipe for a first movement
sonata form--less interesting than the more original first movements of 7 and
9. But I like them anyway.

I doubt the first movement of the 7th will ever be as popular as a lot of
Mahler, but my vote for the most unjustly underrated Mahler piece is not a
symphony but Das Klagende Lied. Written before the first two symphonies, it
strikes me as a more fully realized whole than either of them. Already with
that piece Mahler had attained a mastery of writing for the orchestra and of
late nineteenth-century "developmental technique" that is not to be believed,
and it's full of stunning coups de théâtre and haunting moments. The still
quiet close for tenor and strings is one of my favorite passages in all of
Mahler.

-david gable
David7Gable
2004-12-01 23:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by David7Gable
I suppose I have a thing for Mahler's slow movements: I love the variation set
from 3,
I meant 4, dammit.

-david gable
Farrell22
2004-12-02 04:16:21 UTC
Permalink
5 favorites: 2, 6, 3, 8, 7

Middle 3: 1, 4, 9

2 least favorites: DLVDE, 5, 10
Matthew Silverstein
2004-12-02 04:23:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by David7Gable
I suppose I have a thing for Mahler's slow movements: I love the variation set
from 3, [snip]
The finale from 3 is a set of variations? Do you mean the slow movement in
4?

Matty
David7Gable
2004-12-02 05:04:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
The finale from 3 is a set of variations?
No.
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Do you mean the slow movement in
4?
Yes.

-david gable
Steve Molino
2004-12-01 21:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
Oh my, you will get no concensus here!

But my personal favorites are 3, 6, and 9

Those I like least are 1, 4, and 8.
William Sommerwerck
2004-12-01 21:02:01 UTC
Permalink
I find this rather silly. DLvdE is one of the greatest musical works of all
time. And #3 might be a little on the long side, but it's a wonderful example of
Mahler's belief that a piece of music should encompass the world (or something
like that).

If you like it, you like it, and if you don't, you don't.
Barry Zukerman
2004-12-03 18:34:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Molino
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
Oh my, you will get no concensus here!
But my personal favorites are 3, 6, and 9
Those I like least are 1, 4, and 8.
My favorites have evolved a lot in recent years. One and nine are
definately two of them. Right now, I'd have to pick the fifth to fill
out the top three.

As for least favorites, seven and eight are definately two of them. I
can't really pick a third right now. I haven't been listening to two
or six nearly as much as I used to, but then again, I didn't like five
until the last year or two and it's now one of my favorites. Four has
also gone from being one I just didn't like to the point where it's
been growing on me.

Barry
Christopher Green
2004-12-01 22:33:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
Most: 1, 9, Das Lied (in no particular order).

Least: 8. Utterly wastes the immense resources needed to perform it. I
would like to see what would happen if you performed it with a
bare-minimum ensemble, though: then it might make sense instead of
being a slog through a muddy obstacle course.
--
Chris Green
David7Gable
2004-12-01 23:41:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Green
Least: 8. Utterly wastes the immense resources needed to perform it. I
would like to see what would happen if you performed it with a
bare-minimum ensemble, though: then it might make sense instead of
being a slog through a muddy obstacle course.
There certainly is a different sensibility current among many of the people
interested in the traditions of Western art music in 2000 than there was in
1900. I mean, I have even seen Pavarotti's voice described as "bloated" on
this newsgroup, and his smallish lyric instrument was by no means large. (And
the crazy notion that a Mozart wouldn't have liked such an instrument at his
disposal!) This is the sensibility that leads to one-on-a-part Bach from the
very professionals who claim to be going back to Bach despite the overwhelming
and incontrovertible documentary evidence of the multiple choirs with various
levels of skill that Bach had under his supervision both at church and at the
university. This preference for ever leaner is a new development, not a return
to.

And the moral or quasi-moral tone the objectors have to "bloat" and "muddy
obstacle course"-s. That's also interesting.

-david gable
JRsnfld
2004-12-02 02:12:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by David7Gable
Post by Christopher Green
Least: 8. Utterly wastes the immense resources needed to perform it. I
would like to see what would happen if you performed it with a
bare-minimum ensemble, though: then it might make sense instead of
being a slog through a muddy obstacle course.
There certainly is a different sensibility current among many of the people
interested in the traditions of Western art music in 2000 than there was in
1900. I mean, I have even seen Pavarotti's voice described as "bloated" on
this newsgroup, and his smallish lyric instrument was by no means large.
(And
the crazy notion that a Mozart wouldn't have liked such an instrument at his
disposal!) This is the sensibility that leads to one-on-a-part Bach from the
very professionals who claim to be going back to Bach despite the overwhelming
and incontrovertible documentary evidence of the multiple choirs with various
levels of skill that Bach had under his supervision both at church and at the
university. This preference for ever leaner is a new development, not a return
to.
And the moral or quasi-moral tone the objectors have to "bloat" and "muddy
obstacle course"-s. That's also interesting.
The history lesson is duly noted.

Also, Mahler himself is hardly overorchestrated...his later symphonies use
large forces with surprising delicacy. Didn't the delicacy and spareness of
Mahler's orchestrations, as much as the richness and density, inspire people
like Webern and Berg?

Just because the orchestra is big doesn't mean Mahler's writing is bloated. The
big orchestra is there to achieve contrast and variety. To borrow a concept
from "Spinal Tap": it gives Mahler that "11" on the dial that most composers
don't reach.

--Jeff
David7Gable
2004-12-02 05:06:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by JRsnfld
Didn't the delicacy and spareness of
Mahler's orchestrations, as much as the richness and density, inspire people
like Webern and Berg?
Sure. Then again, Berg was as "immoderate" as the best of 'em.

-david gable
jeffc
2004-12-02 19:30:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by JRsnfld
Just because the orchestra is big doesn't mean Mahler's writing is bloated. The
big orchestra is there to achieve contrast and variety. To borrow a concept
from "Spinal Tap": it gives Mahler that "11" on the dial that most composers
don't reach.
But then Mahler never wrote anything as inspired as "Lick My Love Pump".
JRsnfld
2004-12-03 07:46:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by jeffc
But then Mahler never wrote anything as inspired as "Lick My Love Pump".
If you scramble and reassemble the letters and notes of "Abschied", I believe
you will find it possible to reconstruct, from Mahler himself, an eerily
prescient version of "Lick My Love Pump"...with a slight hesitation before the
last beat of each measure, of course.

--Jeff
JRsnfld
2004-12-01 23:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Green
Least: 8. Utterly wastes the immense resources needed to perform it. I
would like to see what would happen if you performed it with a
bare-minimum ensemble, though: then it might make sense instead of
being a slog through a muddy obstacle course.
When I played in an orchestra for Brahms German Requiem recently I was dismayed
by how much is utterly impossible, or extremely difficult, to project. So much
effort seems wasted. I'll bet one gets the same feeling playing the Mahler 8th;
nonetheless I think the real reason so many people rate it lowest among Mahler
symphonies is because it really doesn't work all that well as home listening,
and certainly not as frequent listening. Fans disagree of course (where are you
Massimo?), but I think this is one reason I've purchased twice as many
recordings of, say, the 2nd or 9th, as of the 8th--it is not really because I
like the others more.

--Jeff
benjo maso
2004-12-01 22:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
Favorites: 2, 4, DLvdE
A little bit less favorites: 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9
Least favorite: 8

Benjo Maso
SanV
2004-12-01 22:21:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
favorite:

1, 2, 4, 6, 9 (not necessarily in this order)

least favorite:

8, 5, 7, 3 (in that order)
Raymond Hall
2004-12-01 22:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
I have a problem with the 8th, (I'll probably end up loving it to death),
but for me the rest are all superb creations. Actually, Das Lied is my clear
favourite of them all. The 2nd is my least favourite, partly because it
tends to remind me of some other earlier choral work that always reminds me
that even the very greatest composers can churn out works of awesome
banality. In fact, I even think that Mahler himself, veered in that
direction with the 2nd to be absolutely honest.

Ray H
Taree
Alan Watkinsuk
2004-12-01 23:40:09 UTC
Permalink
No idea about best or worst but fabulous to play. As always, listeners decide.

Slight preference for the animals carrying the hunter in No 1 (I'm a long way
from the bass soloist hearing wise, depending on the acoustics) and in 9 he
gave the irregular heart beat to me and 4 (at best) is a study in subtlety if
playing.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

.
Paul Ilechko
2004-12-02 00:21:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
It keeps changing - I used to like the early symphonies best, especially
1, 2 and 4, but now I'm leaning more towards the later ones.

I guess currently I would say 5, 9 and dLvdE are my favourites. Maybe 10
if you count it (I like Olson on Naxos) would replace 5.

Least fave is 8, then perhaps 7. I like all the others. Even 8 has its
good parts, especially the instrumental interlude at the start of the
second movement.
Brian Park
2004-12-02 04:27:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
Considering the pieces in their entirety, my favorites would be: 3, 9, and
Das Lied. My least favorites would be 7, 8, 10. But even these have their
great moments for me in certain recordings, like the terrifying opening
bars of the first movement and the Scherzo in the 7th with Abbado's CSO
recording. And the last few minutes of Horenstein's LSO 8th are truly
spectacular too.

Brian Park
Vincent Ventrone
2004-12-02 17:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
Least:

#8
#8
#8

Most:

#7
#9
#3
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-12-02 20:11:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
#8
#8
#8
Am I the only person here who even likes this darn symphony????????
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Gareth Williams
2004-12-02 22:00:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
#8
#8
#8
Am I the only person here who even likes this darn symphony????????
You're not alone, Matthew and, unlike many posters here, I marginally
prefer the second movement over the first.

I'm not overly keen on Das Lied (NB: as a *symphony* that is), the 2nd and
the 4th (in that order). I'd find it really difficult to pick a top three
out of the rest.
--
Regards, Gareth Williams
Steve Molino
2004-12-02 23:22:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
#8
#8
#8
Am I the only person here who even likes this darn symphony????????
Yes. :o)
Larry Rinkel
2004-12-04 05:21:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
#8
#8
#8
Am I the only person here who even likes this darn symphony????????
Probably. My choices:

Current Favorites: 3, 7, DLvdE
Least favorite: second movement of 8 (by a wide margin), 9, 10 (at least the
parts Cooke finished)

General comments:
1 - The banalities stick out too obviously, as does the overworked motif of
the descending perfect fourth, but it's a good experience to hear
regardless. Don't understand the objection to the form of the last movement.
2 - The most organically unified of the symphonies. I am very impressed by
how Mahler anticipates the last movement in the earlier music. The vocal
portion is brought in beautifully, the final peroration is just thrilling.
3 - The least organically unified of the symphonies, but among the most
fascinating. Love the trombone writing in i, but the entire, enormous,
ambitious movement is extraordinary - as is the last movement, with its
steady transformation from contemplation to triumph.
4 - Love the first movement, but the whole is compromised for me by the
simpering atmosphere of the fourth movement, which sounds banal and childish
after the wonderfully adult, romantic variations.
5 - Love the adagietto above all, unless taken too slowly.
6 - Great masterpiece. One of the hardest to come to terms with emotionally.
The last movement can be shattering in live performance.
7 - Not sure about the finale, but the other four movements are incredible.
Love the three middle movements most of all.
8 - I enjoy the first movement but not the second, where the banalities
stick out too much..
9 - I recognize its stature but it's just not a piece I often want to hear.
DLvdE - Just exquisite.
10 - Past the first movement, it's too much compromised by whichever
Completer you're listening to, and the only time I heard the whole
Mahler/Cooke thing live I thought it very unconvincing and boringly
orchestrated.
Bob Harper
2004-12-02 23:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
#8
#8
#8
Am I the only person here who even likes this darn symphony????????
No.

Bob Harper
Andrew T. Kay
2004-12-03 00:08:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
#8
#8
#8
Am I the only person here who even likes this darn symphony????????
No.
I cannot recall listening to any Mahler symphony from beginning to end in about
five years, but when I did so, 8 was one of my favorites (along with 9, 2, 6,
and to a lesser extent 4). 3 and 7 were the ones that never seemed to sink in
with me.


--Todd K
August Helmbright
2004-12-03 13:51:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
#8
#8
#8
Am I the only person here who even likes this darn symphony????????
Not at all. I like it very much. But I also like much of Mahler that many
don't. But I don't like quite a few performances of Mahler's symphonies,
which may be some folks problems. For example, someone stated that #5 is
spoiled by its "sentimental adagietto." Well, most performances of #5 are
indeed spoiled by having the adagietto turned into an adagio molto. That
movement is a very charming and rather light extended introduction to the
rondo finale, and sound great and totally in proportion to the rest of the
work when played as such (e.g., Bruno Walter's conducting).

Back to the 8th - it demands a conductor who can manage the long flow
without making the music sound episodic. It isn't, but it's easy to make it
sound like it is. (Bruckner has this problem with conductors too. The first
movement of his 7th is quite organic when the metronome markings from the
first published edition, which seem to me to be quite authentic, as
Bruckner was very much involved in the publication, are followed. Hardly
anyone does this, but it has been done, or approximated, by a few.)

Do I have a "least favorite" Mahler? Well, probably the 3rd. It has great
moments, but is rather swollen, so I have to be in just the right mood for
it. But even in that case, when I'm in the right mood, I really like it,
too.

-----
August Helmbright
To email me, reverse the first and last names around the period.
Vincent Ventrone
2004-12-03 20:28:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
#8
#8
#8
Am I the only person here who even likes this darn symphony????????
I've tried -- even going as far as hearing it live at Symphony Hall in
Boston w/ Ben Zander conducting, for what reportedly was a very good
performance -- but I'm afraid it offers just too much bellowing & warbling
for my taste to be called a "symphony". Maybe I'd be more receptive if I
liked opera?
David7Gable
2004-12-04 11:27:04 UTC
Permalink
Am I the only person here who even likes this darn symphony???????? [the 8th]
That's your punishment for not liking the 7th!!!!!!!

But seriously, I can see what a remarkable piece the first movement of VIII is
and I love the 10- or 12-minute slow movement that opens Part 2, but a
temperamental barrier prevents me from loving the first movement as much as I
love a lot of Mahler . . . and also prevents me from fully coming terms with
the rest of Part 2. I can start to listen to all of Part 2, but at a certain
point it overloads my circuits and I can't take it any more. This has
absolutely nothing to do with the quality of Mahler's construction and
everything to do with my temperament.

I've quoted an interesting remark of Stravinsky's before. He said something
like "In German music from Meistersinger on I prefer the sad to the happy." In
that sense, my temperament approximates Stravinsky's. For me, listening to the
latter part of Part 2 of VIII requires the kind of force it requires to force
two positive magnets together. Even the Mahler I love tmost can be a bit too
much for me: it's too much like me and I don't need an influx of more of that
particular brand of intensity.

I'm also a "solid state" or fixed state temperament. I don't want to listen to
the last two movements of the Eroica after the first two. I don't want that
extreme a mood shift. After the first four movements of Mahler's Fifth, I
don't want to hear the last movement. I can't shift mood gears that easily.
And I certainly don't want the Adagietto's mood changed as it is when it turns
up in the last movement. Mahler seems however gently to be poking fun at his
earlier mood in retrospect while I'm still immersed in it.

-david gable
Lawrence Chalmers
2004-12-04 19:11:42 UTC
Permalink
I love them all but for those I listen to most often: 3-6-9. The least
often: 2-4-8. That's for now.

It changes every so often. Previous 'phase:' phase: most, 4-6-7 and
least 1-2-5
MarkZimmerman
2004-12-06 01:03:55 UTC
Permalink
I love them all. In the 8th I prefer the Shaw on Telarc. It's as good a
performance as most of the others, but in much better sound. Tremendous
soundstage, width, depth and tone.
Best,

Mark Allen Zimmerman * Chicago
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-12-06 06:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by MarkZimmerman
I love them all. In the 8th I prefer the Shaw on Telarc. It's as good a
performance as most of the others, but in much better sound. Tremendous
soundstage, width, depth and tone.
I love the 4th most of all. Right now, in fact, I'm listening to Britten's
performance with Joan Carlyle and the LSO on BBC Legends.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Juan I. Cahis
2004-12-02 18:32:28 UTC
Permalink
Dear friends:

Very good: 3, 4, 6, LvdE, 10

Good: KL, 2, 9 (First and Fourth Mvt. very good, the rest so and so)

So and so: 1, 5, 8 (First Mvt. bad, Second Mvt. good)

Bad: 7
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
Thanks
Juan I. Cahis
Santiago de Chile (South America)
Note: Please forgive me for my bad English, I am trying to improve it!
Phil Lederer
2004-12-03 01:51:36 UTC
Permalink
I order of preference, least to most

I have never heard a completely convincing performance of 2 and 3
I think 4 is an overworking of rather modest musical ideas.

6 is a bit depressing.

I love 1, 5, 7, 9.

8 is for me the most musical.

Phil
Derek Haslam
2004-12-02 20:25:15 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler
Symphonies.
Hard question! I think I'd put 3, 5 and 2 (in that order)
as my favourites, although if you asked me in a week's time
the answer could be 4, 1, 6!

I quite like the "Veni creator" from 8 but can't get on
with Part II at all. I just can't see 8 as a unified work.
I've heard 7 many times, both at home and live, but doubt
if I'll ever get to love it. 9 has a superb opening
movement but then seems to descend first into triviality
then into banality, redeemed only partly by the finale.

Derek Haslam
--
__ __ __ __ __
/ \ | ||__ |__)/ | | |_ Derek Haslam:
\_\/ |__||__ | \\__ |__| __| Acorn/RISC OS Computer Enthusiast
\ Mastery of the rules is a pre-requisite for creatively breaking them.
Stephen North
2004-12-02 22:18:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
Most fav: 7, 6 & 9 (masterpieces)

Least fav: 8 (hogwash),1 (gawky),2 (too big for its boots), 3 (too damn long)

4, 5, DLVDE - have to be in the right mood and/or drunk

S
Derek Lim
2004-12-03 09:34:26 UTC
Permalink
I know it's not an answer but I find that the different symphonies
resonate with me at different times. I used to like No.1 a lot but
found it doesn't have the breadth and depth of the symphonies that
come after it. Taken on its own its a darn good first symphony though!

I love No.8 but find that for me it works best on recording, strangely
enough. I like hearing it much more than I like watching it, which
isn't to say I wouldn't jump at an opportunity to watch it in concert.
Mahler always had different things to say and he says it really well
here. The second movement is a bit long but if that's what it takes to
reach the heights it does, I'm not complaining.

I guess if there's one Mahler symphony that still doesn't completely
get me it's the Third, and also the Tenth. The 10th doesn't strike me
as being totally convincing in its various garbs (but I love the first
movement, though it's been a while since I've listened to it). The
third strikes me as Mahler repeating himself in some ways, original
though the first movement is. It takes a very good performance of the
last movement to convince me as well.

The Mahler symphonies I love the most are Das Lied and the Seventh.

Derek Lim
www.inkpot.com/classical
Post by Stephen North
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
Most fav: 7, 6 & 9 (masterpieces)
Least fav: 8 (hogwash),1 (gawky),2 (too big for its boots), 3 (too damn long)
4, 5, DLVDE - have to be in the right mood and/or drunk
S
Yoram Regev
2004-12-03 05:54:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Galois
List your 3 most favorite and 3 least favorite Mahler Symphonies.
Without particular order per group:

3 most: 2, 5, DLvdE

3 least: 1, 4, 7



Yoram
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