Hostage deal

[Zionazi]

So there are quite a few Israelis (among them Ben-Gvir doing Petty
politics) and Diaspora Jews who are arguing that this hostage deal sort
of constitutes a reward for the terrorists; saying that Netanyahu
rewards the terrorists with this deal. And that actually one should
teach Hamas a lesson by Not being willing to Agree to this awful deal -
some even go as far as being willing to sacrifice the hostages for some
perceived greater good, arguing that this will save a larger number of
Jews in the Future (who do they think they are? Do they think they’re
god and able to predict the Future? Did hashem give them some sheets
giving the Numbers of the dead Jews if You Take this Deal or if you
don’t? And even if you had the Numbers — would that justify condemning
the hostages to death? I don’t think so)…

There is just so much wrong with this mentality; it’s like the Games
Hamas plays got to These Jews, Broke Them down and turned them into cold
calculating robots.

So some say; if Sinwar wasnt Released This wouldnt have happened. Well
my friends, antisemites will always want to murder Jews and how history
would have went if Israel didn’t Release him among a 1000 other hostages
for Gilad (whose life is certainly worth more than all the fakestinians
that exist on This Planet — the worth of the life of a righteous Person
is infinite. Fwiw: Cant say the Same about Hamas, Hamas-Herman, Raydolf
and Mr Andy Semite), we don’t know.

The mistake was not so much releasing Sinwar (or not murdering him
directly — as Walter Benjamin Said: „The death Penalty for a criminal
can be just, but Never its justification.“ we are not god, we can’t know
if it was really justified, but it can be — it is also something you
feel in your Body. Ill Tell what I think was nonsense… subjecting
Eichmann to a Trial instead of just murdering him. Sure get Info out of
him, but a trial? Lol), but Not defending the Gaza border properly.

Also… the people who seem to think that Israel should not comply to
Hamas‘ demands in the hostage deal, as to teach them a lesson… are they
stupid? No antisemite will ever learn from any lesson (or to be more
precise it Happens too rarely to follow this Route), antisemitism is
precisely where Enlightment fails — because it has nothing to do with
prejudices, but with Deep rooted resentment and much more. You can have
Eichmann or Sinwar meet Jews who are nice and all - not Like Dan you
know ;) - and it wouldnt make a difference.

Netanyahu destroyed Gaza and got rid Off 40k antisemites — how detached
from Reality do You have to be to View This hostage deal as a reward
lol; hes just trying to get the hostages back which is the right thing
to do. And how far detached from Reality do You have to be to think that
Not being willing to do This Deal, would teach Hamas a lesson. You
destroyed Gaza and got rid Off 40k antisemites and they’re still as
antisemitic as before. It does not matter.

Furthermore some of These Short-sighted people argue that if Israel
Never agreed to any hostage deal, no hostages would be taken (Meaning
this rational cold calculating robots would have just condemned innocent
people to death)… well yes, but then they wouldve just murdered them all
— so I rather have Jewish hostages, Even if it makes things
complications, than Dead Jews. According to their Logic, Naama Levy etc.
Wouldnt have been Taken hostage, but wouldve been murdered immediately
— you can’t be wishing for that lol

What These people are missing — Similar to Dan and Frank When it comes
to cutting off parts of the Dicks of Jewish infants -, or rather what
this world with its cold rational Logic destroyed in These people, is
what Adorno Referred to as the somatic Impulse.

„ The eschatological claim that sacrifices are necessary to attain the
Good has long lost its validity, which also means that the evidentness
of the new imperative, “that Auschwitz will not repeat itself” cannot be
treated from a discursive distance,

“for the new imperative gives us a bodily sensation of the moral
addendum — bodily, because it is now the practical abhorrence of the
unbearable physical agony to which individuals are exposed even with
individuality about to vanish as a form of mental reflection. It is in
the unvarnished materialistic motive only that morality survives” (365).

The somatic (bodily) proximity to suffering corrects the bourgeois
coldness, its emotional distance, that had rendered the catastrophe
possible, the coldness of “at least it’s not happening to me”. To expose
oneself (mentally) to the suffering of others humanizes the victims and
makes us aware that while the suffering of Auschwitz might be over,
there is still suffering in this world, and that by profiting from it,
we are just as guilty as the ones who have profited from the evictions
and expropriations that went along with the Shoah (say, from inhumane
conditions in certain factories nowadays thanks to which certain
products become affordable).“

https://epochemagazine.org/05/adornos-negativity-suffering-devoid-of-sense-sense-without-suffering/

[Zionazi]

Post by Zionazi
makes us aware that while the suffering of Auschwitz might be over,
there is still suffering in this world, and that by profiting from it,
we are just as guilty as the ones who have profited from the evictions
and expropriations that went along with the Shoah (say, from inhumane
conditions in certain factories nowadays thanks to which certain
products become affordable).“
https://epochemagazine.org/05/adornos-negativity-suffering-devoid-of-sense-sense-without-suffering/

This Last Part I obviously don’t fully agree with (we are Not as guilty
as those who are responsible for the Shoah), but there is some Truth in
what he says — that we are still guilty, by not realizing how awful this
world (which made Nazism possible) still is and Not Doing anything
against it. The Problem is the consciousness of people gets sort of
fucked by this world (Look at dan‘s or Trump’s narcissism).

Anyhow the Quoted Part I actually Googled because I was and still am too
lazy to Write a well-thought out Text on what Adorno meant with somatic
Impulse in english. And also because I have to Read more in that. Adorno
would have certainly disagreed saying that we are as guilty as the Nazis
it whatever the Autor was aiming at — but the other stuff is Not too
Bad.

[Zionazi]

Post by Zionazi
So there are quite a few Israelis (among them Ben-Gvir doing Petty
politics) and Diaspora Jews who are arguing that this hostage deal sort
of constitutes a reward for the terrorists; saying that Netanyahu
rewards the terrorists with this deal. And that actually one should
teach Hamas a lesson by Not being willing to Agree to this awful deal -
some even go as far as being willing to sacrifice the hostages for some
perceived greater good, arguing that this will save a larger number of
Jews in the Future (who do they think they are? Do they think they’re
god and able to predict the Future? Did hashem give them some sheets
giving the Numbers of the dead Jews if You Take this Deal or if you
don’t? And even if you had the Numbers — would that justify condemning
the hostages to death? I don’t think so)…
There is just so much wrong with this mentality; it’s like the Games
Hamas plays got to These Jews, Broke Them down and turned them into cold
calculating robots.
So some say; if Sinwar wasnt Released This wouldnt have happened. Well
my friends, antisemites will always want to murder Jews and how history
would have went if Israel didn’t Release him among a 1000 other hostages
for Gilad (whose life is certainly worth more than all the fakestinians
that exist on This Planet — the worth of the life of a righteous Person
is infinite. Fwiw: Cant say the Same about Hamas, Hamas-Herman, Raydolf
and Mr Andy Semite), we don’t know.
The mistake was not so much releasing Sinwar (or not murdering him
directly — as Walter Benjamin Said: „The death Penalty for a criminal
can be just, but Never its justification.“ we are not god, we can’t know
if it was really justified, but it can be — it is also something you
feel in your Body.

I think I actually believe that you can probably feel that it was
justified; it’s just that we don’t have the means to come up with a
jutification — this is god‘s Territory.

Also I think it’s Funny to Note, that the commandment „though shall not
kill“ too often Gets misunderstood as „You Must not kill“ - there is a
huge difference here.

[Frank Berger]

Post by Zionazi

Post by Zionazi
So there are quite a few Israelis (among them Ben-Gvir doing Petty
politics) and Diaspora Jews who are arguing that this hostage deal sort
of constitutes a reward for the terrorists; saying that Netanyahu
rewards the terrorists with this deal. And that actually one should
teach Hamas a lesson by Not being willing to Agree to this awful deal -
some even go as far as being willing to sacrifice the hostages for some
perceived greater good, arguing that this will save a larger number of
Jews in the Future (who do they think they are? Do they think they’re
god and able to predict the Future? Did hashem give them some sheets
giving the Numbers of the dead Jews if You Take this Deal or if you
don’t? And even if you had the Numbers — would that justify condemning
the hostages to death? I don’t think so)…
There is just so much wrong with this mentality; it’s like the Games
Hamas plays got to These Jews, Broke Them down and turned them into cold
calculating robots.
So some say; if Sinwar wasnt Released This wouldnt have happened. Well
my friends, antisemites will always want to murder Jews and how history
would have went if Israel didn’t Release him among a 1000 other hostages
for Gilad (whose life is certainly worth more than all the fakestinians
that exist on This Planet — the worth of the life of a righteous Person
is infinite. Fwiw: Cant say the Same about Hamas, Hamas-Herman, Raydolf
and Mr Andy Semite), we don’t know.
The mistake was not so much releasing Sinwar (or not murdering him
directly — as Walter Benjamin Said: „The death Penalty for a criminal
can be just, but Never its justification.“ we are not god, we can’t know
if it was really justified, but it can be — it is also something you
feel in your Body.

I think I actually believe that you can probably feel that it was
justified; it’s just that we don’t have the means to come up with a
jutification — this is god‘s Territory.
Also I think it’s Funny to Note, that the commandment „though shall not
kill“ too often Gets misunderstood as „You Must not kill“ - there is a
huge difference here.

The commandment is Thou shall not murder. Of course, "murder" has to
defined.

[Zionazi]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Zionazi
Also I think it’s Funny to Note, that the commandment „though shall not
kill“ too often Gets misunderstood as „You Must not kill“ - there is a
huge difference here.

The commandment is Thou shall not murder. Of course, "murder" has to
defined.

Yeah, there is a huge difference between murder and kill as well; my
Bad… didn’t properly Reflect when I was writing this out — in my
defense, I think, sometimes it’s okay to just let it all out, no matter
how Chaotic, and then Look at it again.

[Zionazi]

In any case; „Thou shall not murder“ can’t be Seen as a Moral
imperative, but more as a guideline.

[Zionazi]

Or rather the Moral imperative is to follow This guideline. But it does
not forbid murder — as many people (Not orthodox Jews, because there is
Capital Punishment in Judaism) seem to believe.

It’s just many people don’t have an eye for Details.. Pope Francis
abandoned the death Penalty eh?

The Problem with christianity is this Ideology of „turning the other
cheek“ (especially Protestants seem to have fallen prey for this idiocy)
— Id argue that Christian socialization made many people in the West too
soft-hearted, Like they turned people into These do-gooders, into These
wannabe good Samaritans

[Zionazi]

Before people get me wrong: its good to do good for others. But with
Christianity this turned into some form of suicidal empathy
(Immigration-politics for example).

—

On Another Note — but slightly connected:

„Nietzsche also praised parts of the Old Testament and early Jewish
history. He claimed that Judaism went through a negative,
moralistic-pessimistic transformation during the Babylonian captivity.
By losing their native aristocratic class, subjugated Jews, now composed
only of the priestly caste and the Chandala, became resentful toward
their foreign masters and generalized such feelings into a religious
ressentiment towards any type of aristocracy, thus inventing the
Master–slave morality.“

[Frank Berger]

Post by Zionazi
Or rather the Moral imperative is to follow This guideline. But it does
not forbid murder — as many people (Not orthodox Jews, because there is
Capital Punishment in Judaism) seem to believe.
It’s just many people don’t have an eye for Details.. Pope Francis
abandoned the death Penalty eh?
The Problem with christianity is this Ideology of „turning the other
cheek“ (especially Protestants seem to have fallen prey for this idiocy)
— Id argue that Christian socialization made many people in the West too
soft-hearted, Like they turned people into These do-gooders, into These
wannabe good Samaritans

I can't follow what you are trying to say. In Judaism, God said not to
commit murder. He did not say not to kill. Killing is OK in certain
circumstances - self-defense (but not even always then), just wars,
etc., a few other instances. The requirements for capital punishment are
strict. It is traditionally believed that capital punishment was rare,
even in antiquity.

[Zionazi]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Zionazi
Or rather the Moral imperative is to follow This guideline. But it does
not forbid murder — as many people (Not orthodox Jews, because there is
Capital Punishment in Judaism) seem to believe.
It’s just many people don’t have an eye for Details.. Pope Francis
abandoned the death Penalty eh?
The Problem with christianity is this Ideology of „turning the other
cheek“ (especially Protestants seem to have fallen prey for this idiocy)
— Id argue that Christian socialization made many people in the West too
soft-hearted, Like they turned people into These do-gooders, into These
wannabe good Samaritans

I can't follow what you are trying to say. In Judaism, God said not to
commit murder. He did not say not to kill. Killing is OK in certain

I can’t speak Hebrew, but according to Google translation „לֹא תִּרְצָח“
translates to „though shall not murder“. Same in German. Now you can
also Interpret This as „do Not murder“ — but there is a difference in
These two Phrases - in their meaning - to „You _must_ Not murder“.

In Judaism it is Not only okay to kill someone in certain situations,
but also to murder someone in certain situations. Seems Like You don’t
really understand the distinctions im Making Here. One distinction im
Making is between „You _shall_ Not murder“/„_do_ not murder“ and „You
_must_ not murder“

There is Capital punishment in Judaism, so obviously murdering someone
is allowed. If you imprison Eichmann — he‘s not a threat anymore — and
then Hang him, You’re murdering him (according to the Mosaic law,
Capital punishment is Applied to murderers — such as Eichmann).

The Point Im trying to make is simple: Judaism allows murder, and the
commandment is just a General guideline — not a Prohibition to murder.

Post by Frank Berger
circumstances - self-defense (but not even always then), just wars,
etc., a few other instances. The requirements for capital punishment are
strict. It is traditionally believed that capital punishment was rare,
even in antiquity.

So You See, murder is allowed in Judaism.

[Zionazi]

Post by Zionazi
I can’t speak Hebrew, but according to Google translation „לֹא תִּרְצָח“
translates to „though shall not murder“. Same in German. Now you can
also Interpret This as „do Not murder“ — but there is a difference in
These two Phrases - in their meaning - to „You _must_ Not murder“.

Actually, I‘m not even sure how „though shall not murder“ gets
interpreted as „do not murder“ — like how this came to be -; and I’m
also not sure which wording better conveys the meaning of the Hebrew
phrase. But again: there is a difference between shall (as in you are
supposed to) and must (under no circumstances)

[Zionazi]

Another point - which is connected to what I Said before - I want to
make is, that the murder of Eichmann was justified - but that we can’t
use reason to justify this Morally. It is generally very difficult to
come up with moral justifications maybe…

But you can _feel_ (at least if your Soul hasnt been corrupted like that
of pluted and other antisemites) that the murder of Eichmann was
justified.

As Walter Benjamin Said „The death penalty can be moral, but Never its
justification“

—

Just some further thoughts that came up in my mind:

So say when it comes to the Prohibition of circumcision… morally it is
difficult to justify this in some way, because ofc Jews will be hurt and
Judaism gives them life… ofc Judaism is an Ideology and Not true, but
in This cold and Capitalist World people find *solace in faith, and I
feel with and for them — i do not want to take this Away from them. Otoh
I See the barbarism and the pain and death that circumcision causes… so
I have to go against that

Instead of trying to reason on the legitimacy of circumcision -
similarily how you _feel_ that the murder of Eichmann was justified -
you Should be able to _feel_ how this is just wrong and just be Done
with it so to speak… (somatic Impulse)

*as Marx said:

„ Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of
real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the
sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the
soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.“

Unfortunately that bastard and pseudo-Communist lenin Changed the
meaning of this completely… saying that „Religion is the Opium _for_ the
people“ (as if the people in power deliberately poisoned the masses to
stifle revolutionary Action) instead of „Religion is the Opium _of_ the
people“ (See how Little Details Like This matter? Same as with the
discussion „shall not“ and „Must not“)…

Marx was very empathetic, he would not have forced anyone to stop being
religious — Marx believed that if we truly overcome — and I mean
overcome, not as to destroy — capitalism, people would stop believing in
religions themselves. Marx did Not have anything against the idea of or
a personal belief in god, but sure he criticized organized Religion.

[Zionazi]

(One of) My Point(s) (better Formulated) is:

There is a difference between „Thou _shall_ not murder“ (as in: You’re
not supposed to murder — *guideline) and „Thou _must_ not murder“ (as
in: You Must Never - no matter who it is or what the circumstances are -
murder anyone, not even Eichmann)

[Zionazi]

I also want to add — to correct myself a Little…

Eichmann was Not just a murderer; what he did goes far beyond that. What
he did was unprecedented — now you can’t say this wrt Sinwar and the
fakestinians anymore… they are a copy of the German Eliminatory
antisemitism

[Frank Berger]

Post by Zionazi
Another point - which is connected to what I Said before - I want to
make is, that the murder of Eichmann was justified - but that we can’t
use reason to justify this Morally. It is generally very difficult to
come up with moral justifications maybe…
But you can _feel_ (at least if your Soul hasnt been corrupted like that
of pluted and other antisemites) that the murder of Eichmann was
justified.
As Walter Benjamin Said „The death penalty can be moral, but Never its
justification“
—
So say when it comes to the Prohibition of circumcision… morally it is
difficult to justify this in some way, because ofc Jews will be hurt and
Judaism gives them life…  ofc Judaism is an Ideology and Not true, but
in This cold and Capitalist World people find *solace in faith, and I
feel with and for them — i do not want to take this Away from them. Otoh
I See the barbarism and the pain and death that circumcision causes… so
I have to go against that

You are talking about what YOU feel. YOUR opinions. You are entitled
to them. Regarding religions practices. If a representative government
decides to prohibit some religious practice, like cannibalism,
circumcision, kosher slaughtering, whatever, it can, IMO legitimately do
so. If the practicers of these abominable practices wish to continue
doing them, they will have to go elsewhere where they are allowed, do
them illegally, risking punishment. So what you need to do is organize
and get these practices banned, instead of blabbering here.

[Zionazi]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Zionazi
So say when it comes to the Prohibition of circumcision… morally it is
difficult to justify this in some way, because ofc Jews will be hurt and
Judaism gives them life…  ofc Judaism is an Ideology and Not true, but
in This cold and Capitalist World people find *solace in faith, and I
feel with and for them — i do not want to take this Away from them. Otoh
I See the barbarism and the pain and death that circumcision causes… so
I have to go against that

You are talking about what YOU feel. YOUR opinions. You are entitled
to them. Regarding religions practices. If a representative government
decides to prohibit some religious practice, like cannibalism,
circumcision, kosher slaughtering, whatever, it can, IMO legitimately do
so. If the practicers of these abominable practices wish to continue
doing them, they will have to go elsewhere where they are allowed, do
them illegally, risking punishment. So what you need to do is organize
and get these practices banned, instead of blabbering here.

No -- what I'm saying is objective. What you're saying is utterly
subjective. While these are my opinions, they are a more accurate
description of reality, than having the dick of your son mutilated and
claiming god wanted you to do so -- you're just completely brainwashed.

For these practices to be banned, there needs to be a consciousness
among the people that is able to understand why it should be banned --
as we can see here, most people are either too stupid or too brainwashed
to even understand the issue here.

There are plenty of organizations that are trying to get circumcision
banned, I was just trying to open up your mind -- you're too brainwashed
though.

[Frank Berger]

Post by Zionazi

Post by Zionazi
So say when it comes to the Prohibition of circumcision… morally it is
difficult to justify this in some way, because ofc Jews will be hurt and
Judaism gives them life…  ofc Judaism is an Ideology and Not true, but
in This cold and Capitalist World people find *solace in faith, and I
feel with and for them — i do not want to take this Away from them. Otoh
I See the barbarism and the pain and death that circumcision causes… so
I have to go against that

You are talking about what YOU feel.  YOUR opinions.  You are entitled
to them. Regarding religions practices.  If a representative government
decides to prohibit some religious practice, like cannibalism,
circumcision, kosher slaughtering, whatever, it can, IMO legitimately do
so.  If the practicers of these abominable practices wish to continue
doing them, they will have to go elsewhere where they are allowed, do
them illegally, risking punishment. So what you need to do is organize
and get these practices banned, instead of blabbering here.

No -- what I'm saying is objective. What you're saying is utterly
subjective.

What I said above is objective, isn't it?


While these are my opinions, they are a more accurate

Post by Zionazi
description of reality,

In your opinion.

than having the dick of your son mutilated

I've never heard a circumcized person complain they were mutilated. Have
you?

and

Post by Zionazi
claiming god wanted you to do so -- you're just completely brainwashed.
For these practices to be banned, there needs to be a consciousness
among the people that is able to understand why it should be banned --
as we can see here, most people are either too stupid or too brainwashed
to even understand the issue here.
There are plenty of organizations that are trying to get circumcision
banned, I was just trying to open up your mind -- you're too brainwashed
though.

True.

[DeepBlue]

Post by Zionazi
Actually, I‘m not even sure how „though
shall not murder“ gets interpreted as
„do not murder“ — like how this came to
be -; and I’m also not sure which wording
better conveys the meaning of the Hebrew

phrase. But again: there is a difference

Post by Zionazi
between shall (as in you are supposed to)
and must (under no circumstances)

Dude, Hebrew does not have different words
for "murder" and "killing". Many languages
don't make this distinction, which appears
to be mostly the province of Anglo-Saxon
judicial hair splitting.

Your ignorance and self projection shine
through everything you write.

Your Hebrew knowledge is weaker than even
my understanding is Swahili.

Cheers!

[Frank Berger]

Post by Zionazi

Post by Zionazi
Or rather the Moral imperative is to follow This guideline. But it does
not forbid murder — as many people (Not orthodox Jews, because there is
Capital Punishment in Judaism) seem to believe.
It’s just many people don’t have an eye for Details.. Pope Francis
abandoned the death Penalty eh?
The Problem with christianity is this Ideology of „turning the other
cheek“ (especially Protestants seem to have fallen prey for this idiocy)
— Id argue that Christian socialization made many people in the West too
soft-hearted, Like they turned people into These do-gooders, into These
wannabe good Samaritans

I can't follow what you are trying to say.  In Judaism, God said not to
commit murder. He did not say not to kill.  Killing is OK in certain

I can’t speak Hebrew, but according to Google translation „לֹא תִּרְצָח“
translates to „though shall not murder“. Same in German. Now you can
also Interpret This as „do Not murder“ — but there is a difference in
These two Phrases - in their meaning - to „You _must_ Not murder“.
In Judaism it is Not only okay to kill someone in certain situations,
but also to murder someone in certain situations.

By definition, it is not ok to murder. Ever.

Seems Like You don’t

Post by Zionazi
really understand the distinctions im Making Here. One distinction im
Making is between „You _shall_ Not murder“/„_do_ not murder“ and „You
_must_ not murder“

I think you are making up distinctions that don't exist. Just because
the English translations vary doesn't necessarily mean anything. If you
want to talk sensibly from a Jewish perspective, you must consult Jewish
sources, not make stuff up.

Post by Zionazi
There is Capital punishment in Judaism, so obviously murdering someone
is allowed.

What are you talking about? Executing someone in accordance with Jewish
law is not "murder."


If you imprison Eichmann — he‘s not a threat anymore — and

Post by Zionazi
then Hang him, You’re murdering him (according to the Mosaic law,
Capital punishment is Applied to murderers — such as Eichmann).

The fact that Eichmann was executed doesn't have anything to do with
Jewish law. Israel is not a theocracy. Did the Israeli government check
with Rabbis before executing Eichmann? If they did, and the execution
was green lighted by them then the execution wasn't murder, again by
definition. If the execution violated some of the requirements of a
legal Jewish execution, then maybe you could call it murder (from a
Halachic point of view). Not from the point of view of the State, though.

Post by Zionazi
The Point Im trying to make is simple: Judaism allows murder, and the
commandment is just a General guideline — not a Prohibition to murder.

You are not making sense.

Post by Zionazi

circumstances - self-defense (but not even always then), just wars,
etc., a few other instances. The requirements for capital punishment are
strict. It is traditionally believed that capital punishment was rare,
even in antiquity.

So You See, murder is allowed in Judaism.

Wrong. Completely. Mind boggeling.

[Zionazi]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Zionazi
I can’t speak Hebrew, but according to Google translation „לֹא תִּרְצָח“
translates to „though shall not murder“. Same in German. Now you can
also Interpret This as „do Not murder“ — but there is a difference in
These two Phrases - in their meaning - to „You _must_ Not murder“.
In Judaism it is Not only okay to kill someone in certain situations,
but also to murder someone in certain situations.

By definition, it is not ok to murder. Ever.

The problem with you Frank, is that you're utterly brainwashed by
Judaism.

Let me try to help you see things a little more clearly:

According to the mosaic law capital punishment is for example to be
applied to idol worshippers (now you don't need to go into details here,
say that there would be a minimum of 23 Sanhedrin adjudicating in that
person's trial or whatever).

From a secular perspective this would constitute murder, since the
person you are condemning to death is innocent from a secular
perspective. From a secular perspective this would constitute unlawful
killing, meaning murder (at least if the disinction you are making
between murder and killing, is that murder constitute "unlawful
killing").

From a secular perspective there is nothing wrong with changing one's
faith, only from the mosaic law there is somethign wrong with that (*you
have been brainwashed Frank).

This is similar to a ruling in Islam; in Islam there is a death penalty
for apostasy -- now Muslims who have been brainwashed by Islam (similar
to how you have been brainwashed by Judaism), would argue similarly to
you, saying that, since the death penalty is apparently sanctioned by
god, it would not constitute murder. But guess what... killing someone
for becoming atheist or changing one's religion constitutes murder from
a secular perspective.

Post by Frank Berger
Seems Like You don’t

Post by Zionazi
really understand the distinctions im Making Here. One distinction im
Making is between „You _shall_ Not murder“/„_do_ not murder“ and „You
_must_ not murder“

I think you are making up distinctions that don't exist. Just because
the English translations vary doesn't necessarily mean anything. If you
want to talk sensibly from a Jewish perspective, you must consult Jewish
sources, not make stuff up.

I am not making anything up; the correct translation according to Rabbis
is "though _shall_ not murder" -- now you can ask yourself, why god (as
if he was responsible for this nonsense called Torah), didn't write "You
_must_ not murder". There is a difference in meaning here.

You seem to be incapable of understanding the issue here.

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Zionazi
There is Capital punishment in Judaism, so obviously murdering someone
is allowed.

What are you talking about? Executing someone in accordance with Jewish
law is not "murder."
If you imprison Eichmann — he‘s not a threat anymore — and

Post by Zionazi
then Hang him, You’re murdering him (according to the Mosaic law,
Capital punishment is Applied to murderers — such as Eichmann).

The fact that Eichmann was executed doesn't have anything to do with
Jewish law. Israel is not a theocracy. Did the Israeli government check
with Rabbis before executing Eichmann? If they did, and the execution
was green lighted by them then the execution wasn't murder, again by
definition. If the execution violated some of the requirements of a
legal Jewish execution, then maybe you could call it murder (from a
Halachic point of view). Not from the point of view of the State, though.

When it comes to Eichmann, I was wrong - even from a secular Israeli
perspective this does not constitute murder (at least if you define
murder as "unlawful killing of an innocent person) -- he was neither
innocent, nor was it against the secular law of Israel. I actually
believe Rabbis would have condemned him to death as well.

From my perspective - which might be wrong -; the difference between
murdering and killing is the following though - or at least that's how I
viewed it in my previous posts:

Killing is if you are either in a war or have to defend yourself, or you
accidently drive someone over etc. -- you have no choice

Murder is if the other person doesn't pose an immediate threat to you
anymore, but you still kill him. -- you have a choice

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Zionazi
The Point Im trying to make is simple: Judaism allows murder, and the
commandment is just a General guideline — not a Prohibition to murder.

You are not making sense.

I am, it's just that you've been utterly brainwashed by Judaism.

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Zionazi

Post by Frank Berger
circumstances - self-defense (but not even always then), just wars,
etc., a few other instances. The requirements for capital punishment are
strict. It is traditionally believed that capital punishment was rare,
even in antiquity.

So You See, murder is allowed in Judaism.

Wrong. Completely. Mind boggeling.

No, from a secular perspective it is allowed, as I've illustrated.

Putting the death penalty on an idol-worshipper (which is not a sin nor
any sort of problem from a secular perspective) is murder.

[Frank Berger]

Post by Zionazi

Post by Zionazi
I can’t speak Hebrew, but according to Google translation „לֹא תִּרְצָח“
translates to „though shall not murder“. Same in German. Now you can
also Interpret This as „do Not murder“ — but there is a difference in
These two Phrases - in their meaning - to „You _must_ Not murder“.
In Judaism it is Not only okay to kill someone in certain situations,
but also to murder someone in certain situations.

By definition, it is not ok to murder.  Ever.

The problem with you Frank, is that you're utterly brainwashed by
Judaism.
According to the mosaic law capital punishment is for example to be
applied to idol worshippers (now you don't need to go into details here,
say that there would be a minimum of 23 Sanhedrin adjudicating in that
person's trial or whatever).
From a secular perspective this would constitute murder, since the
person you are condemning to death is innocent from a secular
perspective. From a secular perspective this would constitute unlawful
killing, meaning murder (at least if the disinction you are making
between murder and killing, is that murder constitute "unlawful
killing").
From a secular perspective there is nothing wrong with changing one's
faith, only from the mosaic law there is somethign wrong with that (*you
have been brainwashed Frank).
This is similar to a ruling in Islam; in Islam there is a death penalty
for apostasy -- now Muslims who have been brainwashed by Islam (similar
to how you have been brainwashed by Judaism), would argue similarly to
you, saying that, since the death penalty is apparently sanctioned by
god, it would not constitute murder. But guess what... killing someone
for becoming atheist or changing one's religion constitutes murder from
a secular perspective.

  Seems Like You don’t

Post by Zionazi
really understand the distinctions im Making Here. One distinction im
Making is between „You _shall_ Not murder“/„_do_ not murder“ and „You
_must_ not murder“

I think you are making up distinctions that don't exist. Just because
the English translations vary doesn't necessarily mean anything.  If you
want to talk sensibly from a Jewish perspective, you must consult Jewish
sources, not make stuff up.

I am not making anything up; the correct translation according to Rabbis
is "though _shall_ not murder" -- now you can ask yourself, why god (as
if he was responsible for this nonsense called Torah), didn't write "You
_must_ not murder". There is a difference in meaning here.
You seem to be incapable of understanding the issue here.

Post by Zionazi
There is Capital punishment in Judaism, so obviously murdering someone
is allowed.

What are you talking about?  Executing someone in accordance with Jewish
law is not "murder."
If you imprison Eichmann — he‘s not a threat anymore — and

Post by Zionazi
then Hang him, You’re murdering him (according to the Mosaic law,
Capital punishment is Applied to murderers — such as Eichmann).

The fact that Eichmann was executed doesn't have anything to do with
Jewish law. Israel is not a theocracy.  Did the Israeli government check
with Rabbis before executing Eichmann?  If they did, and the execution
was green lighted by them then the execution wasn't murder, again by
definition. If the execution violated some of the requirements of a
legal Jewish execution, then maybe you could call it murder (from a
Halachic point of view). Not from the point of view of the State, though.

When it comes to Eichmann, I was wrong - even from a secular Israeli
perspective this does not constitute murder (at least if you define
murder as "unlawful killing of an innocent person) -- he was neither
innocent, nor was it against the secular law of Israel. I actually
believe Rabbis would have condemned him to death as well.
From my perspective - which might be wrong -; the difference between
murdering and killing is the following though - or at least that's how I
Killing is if you are either in a war or have to defend yourself, or you
accidently drive someone over etc. -- you have no choice
Murder is if the other person doesn't pose an immediate threat to you
anymore, but you still kill him. -- you have a choice

Post by Zionazi
The Point Im trying to make is simple: Judaism allows murder, and the
commandment is just a General guideline — not a Prohibition to murder.

You are not making sense.

I am, it's just that you've been utterly brainwashed by Judaism.

Post by Zionazi

Post by Frank Berger
circumstances - self-defense (but not even always then), just wars,
etc., a few other instances. The requirements for capital punishment are
strict. It is traditionally believed that capital punishment was rare,
even in antiquity.

So You See, murder is allowed in Judaism.

Wrong.  Completely. Mind boggeling.

No, from a secular perspective it is allowed, as I've illustrated.
Putting the death penalty on an idol-worshipper (which is not a sin nor
any sort of problem from a secular perspective) is murder.

I totally agree that the distinction between murder and killing depends
on one's perspective.

[DeepBlue]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Zionazi
Or rather the Moral imperative is to follow This guideline. But it does
not forbid murder — as many people (Not orthodox Jews, because there is
Capital Punishment in Judaism) seem to believe.
It’s just many people don’t have an eye for Details.. Pope Francis
abandoned the death Penalty eh?
The Problem with christianity is this Ideology of „turning the other
cheek“ (especially Protestants seem to have fallen prey for this idiocy)
— Id argue that Christian socialization made many people in the West too
soft-hearted, Like they turned people into These do-gooders, into These
wannabe good Samaritans

I can't follow what you are trying to say. In Judaism, God said not to
commit murder. He did not say not to kill. Killing is OK in certain
circumstances - self-defense (but not even always then), just wars,
etc., a few other instances. The requirements for capital punishment are
strict. It is traditionally believed that capital punishment was rare,
even in antiquity.

The dude understands neither English, nor Hebrew,
and even his German is sketchy. No point arguing
with him.

As my friend Mark used to say "never wrestle with
a pig. You just get dirty and the pig enjoys it".

Cheers!

[Frank Berger]

Post by DeepBlue

Post by Zionazi
Or rather the Moral imperative is to follow This guideline. But it does
not forbid murder — as many people (Not orthodox Jews, because there is
Capital Punishment in Judaism) seem to believe.
It’s just many people don’t have an eye for Details.. Pope Francis
abandoned the death Penalty eh?
The Problem with christianity is this Ideology of „turning the other
cheek“ (especially Protestants seem to have fallen prey for this idiocy)
— Id argue that Christian socialization made many people in the West too
soft-hearted, Like they turned people into These do-gooders, into These
wannabe good Samaritans

I can't follow what you are trying to say.  In Judaism, God said not to
commit murder. He did not say not to kill.  Killing is OK in certain
circumstances - self-defense (but not even always then), just wars,
etc., a few other instances. The requirements for capital punishment are
strict. It is traditionally believed that capital punishment was rare,
even in antiquity.

The dude understands neither English, nor Hebrew,
and even his German is sketchy. No point arguing
with him.
As my friend Mark used to say "never wrestle with
a pig. You just get dirty and the pig enjoys it".
Cheers!

Yes, but he's a well meaning pig, I think. Maybe a piglet.

[Zionazi]

Post by Frank Berger
Yes, but he's a well meaning pig, I think. Maybe a piglet.

How am I even a piglet, Frank? I think the pigs are the people who
mutilate the dicks of their sons claiming god wanted them to do so.

[Frank Berger]

Post by Zionazi

Post by Frank Berger
Yes, but he's a well meaning pig, I think. Maybe a piglet.

How am I even a piglet, Frank? I think the pigs are the people who
mutilate the dicks of their sons claiming god wanted them to do so.

Jews are pigs, huh? Seems I've heard that before.

[Zionazi]

Post by DeepBlue
The dude understands neither English, nor Hebrew,
and even his German is sketchy. No point arguing
with him.
As my friend Mark used to say "never wrestle with
a pig. You just get dirty and the pig enjoys it".
Cheers!

I don't really understand, what ppl don't get here..

Since you have nothing of value to add, why don't you go play with your
mutilated dick, you freak.

[Frank Berger]

Post by Zionazi
In any case; „Thou shall not murder“ can’t be Seen as a Moral
imperative, but more as a guideline.

Sounds like a moral imperative to me. I suppose murder could be moral
but God said to do it anyway, but I don't think anyone has ever
interpreted that way.

[DeepBlue]

Post by Frank Berger
The commandment is Thou shall not murder.
Of course, "murder" has to defined.

?!? What non-sensical hair splitting !!!

"Murder" has to be "defined" ?!?
Is this what your rabbies teach?

We all know what murder is. No
need for lawyerly hair splitting.

Cheers!

[Frank Berger]

Post by DeepBlue

Post by Frank Berger
The commandment is Thou shall not murder.
Of course, "murder" has to defined.

?!? What non-sensical hair splitting !!!
"Murder" has to be "defined" ?!?
Is this what your rabbies teach?
We all know what murder is. No
need for lawyerly hair splitting.
Cheers!

Sure there is, when some people think the commandment precludes killing
in self-defense.