Discussion:
OT: Why Joni Mitchell more than Bob Dylan deserved a Nobel Prize
(too old to reply)
John Thomas
2017-09-09 16:02:16 UTC
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Considering all the OT talk here when Dylan won I have no hesitation opening an OT thread with this article from Bookforum.

Chords of Inquiry
How Joni Mitchell created her own tradition

CARL WILSON

It’s 1984 or 1985, Prince and the Revolution are in California, and they decide to drive out to Joni Mitchell’s house in Malibu for dinner. All devotees—Prince says his favorite album ever is 1975’s The Hissing of Summer Lawns—they chat and admire her paintings, and then Prince wanders to the piano and starts teasing out some chords. “Joni says, ‘Oh wow! That’s really pretty. What song are you playing?’” as band member Wendy Melvoin later recalls. “We all yelled, ‘It’s your song!’” Prince will perform his gorgeous arrangement of Mitchell’s “A Case of You” in concerts up to the final month of his life.

This anecdote from David Yaffe’s Reckless Daughter: A Portrait of Joni Mitchell is rare for being sweet and funny, not sad or rancorous. It’s endearingly humbling, while still hinting at her ample ego: She really does love her own stuff, even when she doesn’t know it’s hers. And why shouldn’t she? For more than a decade, the singer from Saskatchewan bounded from masterpiece to masterpiece, her second-string songs superior to almost anyone else’s best. Yet, among her generation’s legends, she is the most persistently sidelined.

Mitchell is easy to pigeonhole as that “poetic, confessional female singer-songwriter,” provided you overlook half her work and the fact that, before her, there really was no such thing. Even on her earliest, overly demure albums, she’d taken Bob Dylan’s cue that pop songs could say anything (she often named “Positively Fourth Street” as her bat signal) and was using it to dismantle the pedestal she was placed on: The ingenue was gazing back and seeing through her watchers, keeping charts of power plays in a fine calligraphic hand. The girl all the pop songs were about was stepping up to tell them what they got wrong.

She shared with her Canadian compatriots Neil Young and Leonard Cohen the distanced perspective that gave their voices a stark autonomy. (As Margaret Atwood once said in a tribute to Mitchell, in their day you were told you were a lunatic if you thought you could be an artist in Canada.) But because she couldn’t be one of the boys like her pal Neil or a keeper of the poetic patrimony like her onetime paramour Leonard, she built her own distinct lexicon, part journal and sketchbook jottings, part intimate conversation, part wry postwar fiction, and part barroom jive. In 1971, Blue (which includes “A Case of You,” a song about Cohen, as it happens) kicked off a six- or seven-album streak that stands beside Stevie Wonder’s of the same time or Dylan’s mid-’60s run. Each record was unlike the last, each with fresh aesthetic propositions to test, each ready to die trying. Listen to the right one at the right time in your life, and you feel like a doctor just handed you an ultrasound of your soul (more: http://tinyw.in/tgwR)
Andy Evans
2017-09-09 19:30:22 UTC
Permalink
It's all subjective how much effect Joni or Bob had on individuals. Speaking for myself, I find Joni a very fine lyric writer indeed, but I don't really like her voice or her musical arrangements. So I don't listen much though I tell myself "I ought to...'

Dylan is another case entirely. He was hugely influential on my generation (born late 40s) and quirky as his voice and delivery was, it worked for me and I liked his band a lot more. So his discs were often on my turntable.

How history will judge either is not for me to say, but of the two I'm happy the Nobel went to Dylan.
Bozo
2017-09-09 20:36:25 UTC
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Joan Baez' greatest hit :


Bozo
2017-09-10 00:08:02 UTC
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Post by Bozo
http://youtu.be/2MSwBM_CbyY
The lyrics ( wow ) :

Well I'll be damned
Here comes your ghost again
But that's not unusual
It's just that the moon is full
And you happened to call

And here I sit
Hand on the telephone
Hearing a voice I'd known
A couple of light years ago
Heading straight for a fall

As I remember your eyes
Were bluer than robin's eggs
My poetry was lousy you said
Where are you calling from?

A booth in the midwest
Ten years ago
I bought you some cufflinks
You brought me something
We both know what memories can bring
They bring diamonds and rust

Well you burst on the scene
Already a legend
The unwashed phenomenon
The original vagabond
You strayed into my arms

And there you stayed
Temporarily lost at sea
The Madonna was yours for free
Yes the girl on the half-shell
Would keep you unharmed

Now I see you standing
With brown leaves falling around
And snow in your hair
Now you're smiling out the window
Of that crummy hotel
Over Washington Square
Our breath comes out white clouds
Mingles and hangs in the air
Speaking strictly for me
We both could have died then and there

Now you're telling me
You're not nostalgic
Then give me another word for it
You who are so good with words
And at keeping things vague
Because I need some of that vagueness now
It's all come back too clearly
Yes I loved you dearly
And if you're offering me diamonds and rust
I've already paid
Andy Evans
2017-09-10 11:51:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
http://youtu.be/2MSwBM_CbyY
I prefer Joni as a writer:

All the people at this party
They've got a lot of style
They've got stamps of many countries
They've got passport smiles
Some are friendly
Some are cutting
Some are watching it from the wings
Some are standing in the centre
Giving to get something

Photo Beauty gets attention
Then her eye paint's running down
She's got a rose in her teeth
And a lampshade crown
One minute she's so happy
Then she's crying on someone's knee
Saying, laughing and crying
You know it's the same release

I told you when I met you
I was crazy
Cry for us all, Beauty
Cry for Eddie in the corner
Thinking he's nobody
And Jack behind his joker
And stone-cold Grace behind her fan
And me in my frightened silence
Thinking I don't understand

I feel like I'm sleeping
Can you wake me?
You seem to have a broader sensibility
I'm just living on nerves and feelings
With a weak and a lazy mind
And coming to people's parties
Fumbling deaf dumb and blind

I wish I had more sense of humor
Keeping the sadness at bay
Throwing the lightness on these things
Laughing it all away
Laughing it all away
Laughing it all away
g***@gmail.com
2019-05-20 02:08:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
It's all subjective how much effect Joni or Bob had on individuals. Speaking for myself, I find Joni a very fine lyric writer indeed, but I don't really like her voice or her musical arrangements. So I don't listen much though I tell myself "I ought to...'
Dylan is another case entirely. He was hugely influential on my generation (born late 40s) and quirky as his voice and delivery was, it worked for me and I liked his band a lot more. So his discs were often on my turntable.
How history will judge either is not for me to say, but of the two I'm happy the Nobel went to Dylan.
Who gets the Nobel prize is a very political choice.

Concerning the Peace Prize, if you can believe it, Gandhi was never awarded that.
g***@gmail.com
2019-05-20 02:31:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Andy Evans
It's all subjective how much effect Joni or Bob had on individuals. Speaking for myself, I find Joni a very fine lyric writer indeed, but I don't really like her voice or her musical arrangements. So I don't listen much though I tell myself "I ought to...'
Dylan is another case entirely. He was hugely influential on my generation (born late 40s) and quirky as his voice and delivery was, it worked for me and I liked his band a lot more. So his discs were often on my turntable.
How history will judge either is not for me to say, but of the two I'm happy the Nobel went to Dylan.
Who gets the Nobel prize is a very political choice.
Concerning the Peace Prize, if you can believe it, Gandhi was never awarded that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize#Notable_omissions
g***@gmail.com
2019-05-20 03:19:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
It's all subjective how much effect Joni or Bob had on individuals. Speaking for myself, I find Joni a very fine lyric writer indeed, but I don't really like her voice or her musical arrangements. So I don't listen much though I tell myself "I ought to...'
Dylan is another case entirely. He was hugely influential on my generation (born late 40s) and quirky as his voice and delivery was, it worked for me and I liked his band a lot more. So his discs were often on my turntable.
How history will judge either is not for me to say, but of the two I'm happy the Nobel went to Dylan.
Who gets the Nobel prize is a very political choice.

If you can believe it, Gandhi was never awarded the Peace Prize:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize#Notable_omissions
g***@gmail.com
2017-09-20 09:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Thomas
Considering all the OT talk here when Dylan won I have no hesitation opening an OT thread with this article from Bookforum.
Chords of Inquiry
How Joni Mitchell created her own tradition
CARL WILSON
It’s 1984 or 1985, Prince and the Revolution are in California, and they decide to drive out to Joni Mitchell’s house in Malibu for dinner. All devotees—Prince says his favorite album ever is 1975’s The Hissing of Summer Lawns—they chat and admire her paintings, and then Prince wanders to the piano and starts teasing out some chords. “Joni says, ‘Oh wow! That’s really pretty. What song are you playing?’” as band member Wendy Melvoin later recalls. “We all yelled, ‘It’s your song!’” Prince will perform his gorgeous arrangement of Mitchell’s “A Case of You” in concerts up to the final month of his life.
This anecdote from David Yaffe’s Reckless Daughter: A Portrait of Joni Mitchell is rare for being sweet and funny, not sad or rancorous. It’s endearingly humbling, while still hinting at her ample ego: She really does love her own stuff, even when she doesn’t know it’s hers. And why shouldn’t she? For more than a decade, the singer from Saskatchewan bounded from masterpiece to masterpiece, her second-string songs superior to almost anyone else’s best. Yet, among her generation’s legends, she is the most persistently sidelined.
Mitchell is easy to pigeonhole as that “poetic, confessional female singer-songwriter,” provided you overlook half her work and the fact that, before her, there really was no such thing. Even on her earliest, overly demure albums, she’d taken Bob Dylan’s cue that pop songs could say anything (she often named “Positively Fourth Street” as her bat signal) and was using it to dismantle the pedestal she was placed on: The ingenue was gazing back and seeing through her watchers, keeping charts of power plays in a fine calligraphic hand. The girl all the pop songs were about was stepping up to tell them what they got wrong.
She shared with her Canadian compatriots Neil Young and Leonard Cohen the distanced perspective that gave their voices a stark autonomy. (As Margaret Atwood once said in a tribute to Mitchell, in their day you were told you were a lunatic if you thought you could be an artist in Canada.) But because she couldn’t be one of the boys like her pal Neil or a keeper of the poetic patrimony like her onetime paramour Leonard, she built her own distinct lexicon, part journal and sketchbook jottings, part intimate conversation, part wry postwar fiction, and part barroom jive. In 1971, Blue (which includes “A Case of You,” a song about Cohen, as it happens) kicked off a six- or seven-album streak that stands beside Stevie Wonder’s of the same time or Dylan’s mid-’60s run. Each record was unlike the last, each with fresh aesthetic propositions to test, each ready to die trying. Listen to the right one at the right time in your life, and you feel like a doctor just handed you an ultrasound of your soul (more: http://tinyw.in/tgwR)
On Thursday, TCM is scheduled to telecast DON'T LOOK BACK:

http://www.tcm.com/schedule/monthly.html
Tony
2017-09-20 09:37:53 UTC
Permalink
Is there any justification for acknowledging any popular artist with an award which is supposed to signal the most refined and impactful accomplishment? FFS there are enough lower-grade accolades where you don't have to dish out the highest artistic achievements to everyone.
Herman
2017-09-20 09:41:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Is there any justification for acknowledging any popular artist with an award which is supposed to signal the most refined and impactful accomplishment? FFS there are enough lower-grade accolades where you don't have to dish out the highest artistic achievements to everyone.
Say "Babyboomer" ten times fast and you'll understand.
Andy Evans
2017-09-20 11:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by Tony
Is there any justification for acknowledging any popular artist with an award which is supposed to signal the most refined and impactful accomplishment? FFS there are enough lower-grade accolades where you don't have to dish out the highest artistic achievements to everyone.
Say "Babyboomer" ten times fast and you'll understand.
Yes exactly - it was a generational thing. But arguably that matters too - one's impact at a certain specific time rather than more generally leaving a legacy. I'd add that I've nothing at all against "popular artists" - it's a term we use these days but many great artists were widely acclaimed in their day.
HT
2017-09-20 14:28:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
I'd add that I've nothing at all against "popular artists" - it's a term we use these days but many great artists were widely acclaimed in their day.
Even shortly after the war artists were popular because they had talent. These days one only has to have the talent to become popular. It has become a value in itself. (I forgot who I'm paraphrasing.)

BTW, these days one can be very popular without having any impact at all. Fashion models and royalty are a clear example.
Bob Dylan at least had some impact as a singer/songwriter. According to some - and he seems to agree - that also makes him a great poet and painter.

Henk
Frank Berger
2017-09-20 13:44:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Is there any justification for acknowledging any popular artist with an award which is supposed to signal the most refined and impactful accomplishment? FFS there are enough lower-grade accolades where you don't have to dish out the highest artistic achievements to everyone.
"Among the five prizes provided for in Alfred Nobel's will
(1895), one was intended for the person who, in the literary
field, had produced "the most outstanding work in an ideal
direction". The Laureate should be determined by "the
Academy in Stockholm", which was specified by the statutes
of the Nobel Foundation to mean the Swedish Academy. These
statutes defined literature as "not only belles-lettres, but
also other writings which, by virtue of their form and
style, possess literary value"."

Doesn't say anything about "refined," nor "impactful," for
that matter. Though I suppose "ideal direction" must mean
something.
Tony
2017-09-20 15:05:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Doesn't say anything about "refined," nor "impactful," for
that matter. Though I suppose "ideal direction" must mean
something.
Yes that's true. I suppose the sense of refinement and impactfulness came from precedent, which also is a kind of determinant after a while.
gggg gggg
2020-11-29 01:44:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Thomas
Considering all the OT talk here when Dylan won I have no hesitation opening an OT thread with this article from Bookforum.
Chords of Inquiry
How Joni Mitchell created her own tradition
CARL WILSON
It’s 1984 or 1985, Prince and the Revolution are in California, and they decide to drive out to Joni Mitchell’s house in Malibu for dinner. All devotees—Prince says his favorite album ever is 1975’s The Hissing of Summer Lawns—they chat and admire her paintings, and then Prince wanders to the piano and starts teasing out some chords. “Joni says, ‘Oh wow! That’s really pretty. What song are you playing?’” as band member Wendy Melvoin later recalls. “We all yelled, ‘It’s your song!’” Prince will perform his gorgeous arrangement of Mitchell’s “A Case of You” in concerts up to the final month of his life.
This anecdote from David Yaffe’s Reckless Daughter: A Portrait of Joni Mitchell is rare for being sweet and funny, not sad or rancorous. It’s endearingly humbling, while still hinting at her ample ego: She really does love her own stuff, even when she doesn’t know it’s hers. And why shouldn’t she? For more than a decade, the singer from Saskatchewan bounded from masterpiece to masterpiece, her second-string songs superior to almost anyone else’s best. Yet, among her generation’s legends, she is the most persistently sidelined.
Mitchell is easy to pigeonhole as that “poetic, confessional female singer-songwriter,” provided you overlook half her work and the fact that, before her, there really was no such thing. Even on her earliest, overly demure albums, she’d taken Bob Dylan’s cue that pop songs could say anything (she often named “Positively Fourth Street” as her bat signal) and was using it to dismantle the pedestal she was placed on: The ingenue was gazing back and seeing through her watchers, keeping charts of power plays in a fine calligraphic hand. The girl all the pop songs were about was stepping up to tell them what they got wrong.
She shared with her Canadian compatriots Neil Young and Leonard Cohen the distanced perspective that gave their voices a stark autonomy. (As Margaret Atwood once said in a tribute to Mitchell, in their day you were told you were a lunatic if you thought you could be an artist in Canada.) But because she couldn’t be one of the boys like her pal Neil or a keeper of the poetic patrimony like her onetime paramour Leonard, she built her own distinct lexicon, part journal and sketchbook jottings, part intimate conversation, part wry postwar fiction, and part barroom jive. In 1971, Blue (which includes “A Case of You,” a song about Cohen, as it happens) kicked off a six- or seven-album streak that stands beside Stevie Wonder’s of the same time or Dylan’s mid-’60s run. Each record was unlike the last, each with fresh aesthetic propositions to test, each ready to die trying. Listen to the right one at the right time in your life, and you feel like a doctor just handed you an ultrasound of your soul (more: http://tinyw.in/tgwR)
Amazon has a Cyber Monday mark down on a box set which contains her earliest recordings.
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