Discussion:
No More "Karajan Conducts Wagner" on DG?
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John Fowler
2020-06-07 21:37:25 UTC
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We at Deutsche Grammophon stand in solidarity against all forms of racism, discrimination, bigotry and injustice. As a team we are energized to promote meaningful change through the power of music. In a dialogue with our community of artists we have started working on concrete initiatives and will share details soon.
Frank Berger
2020-06-07 21:46:10 UTC
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Post by John Fowler
We at Deutsche Grammophon stand in solidarity against all forms of racism, discrimination, bigotry and injustice. As a team we are energized to promote meaningful change through the power of music. In a dialogue with our community of artists we have started working on concrete initiatives and will share details soon.
Not only that, but all owner of Wagner recordings have to
destroy them and make a video stating that they have done so.
Tassilo
2020-06-23 05:36:48 UTC
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Post by Frank Berger
Not only that, but all owner of Wagner recordings have to
destroy them and make a video stating that they have done so.
Frank is correct. That is the proper response under the regime of political correctness. -Tassilo
Frank Berger
2020-06-23 13:40:37 UTC
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Post by Tassilo
Post by Frank Berger
Not only that, but all owner of Wagner recordings have to
destroy them and make a video stating that they have done so.
Frank is correct. That is the proper response under the regime of political correctness. -Tassilo
Is anyone reminded of the French Revolution?
Frank Berger
2020-06-23 14:05:33 UTC
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Post by Frank Berger
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 5:46:15 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger
Post by Frank Berger
Not only that, but all owner of Wagner recordings have to
destroy them and make a video stating that they have done
so.
Frank is correct.  That is the proper response under the
regime of political correctness. -Tassilo
Is anyone reminded of the French Revolution?
Genesis 6:9 says that Noah was a great man in his time.
There are many translations from the Hebrew that reflect the
opinion of the translator as to what the verse means. Why
did the bible qualify Noah's greatness? Why "in his time?"
Well the scholars have argued about that since it was
written. But no one, to my knowledge, has advocated for
excising (canceling) Noah from the bible.

If someone were to tell me that Hitler wasn't ALL bad. That
he loved (Aryan) children and built roads and hospitals, I
would have to accept that, but given the evil he wrought my
own personal scale of justice puts Hitler about has low as a
human can go. In my heart I can't give him credit for
whatever good he may have done.

So if Black people (many, all, some?) and woke White people
feel the same way about the slave-owning George Washington
and the fighter-for-slavery Robert E. Lee, who am I to disagree>

The difference is that I don't hate a single German who is
living today. Nor do I want reparations from the German
government for the losses of my relatives (only a few) or my
people. I realize Israel receives reparations from Germany
(mostly in the form of Mercedes taxicabs I am told), but I
am against that also.
weary flake
2020-06-23 17:50:15 UTC
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Post by Frank Berger
Post by Tassilo
Post by Frank Berger
Not only that, but all owner of Wagner recordings have to
destroy them and make a video stating that they have done so.
Frank is correct. That is the proper response under the regime of
political correctness. -Tassilo
Is anyone reminded of the French Revolution?
Has the racial movement started burning harpsichords?
Black Lives Matter has demanded ending drug laws and
replacing police with gangs, but I haven't heard about
their stance on harpsichords.
Oscar
2020-06-24 19:04:21 UTC
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Post by weary flake
Has the racial movement started burning harpsichords?
Black Lives Matter has demanded ending drug laws and
replacing police with gangs, but I haven't heard about
their stance on harpsichords.
I'm all in with supplying chainsaws to the thugs if they take out every last clavichord. Tear 'em down. #dobetter
Bob Harper
2020-06-24 18:57:19 UTC
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Post by Frank Berger
Post by Frank Berger
Not only that, but all owner of Wagner recordings have to
destroy them and make a video stating that they have done so.
Frank is correct.  That is the proper response under the regime of
political correctness. -Tassilo
Is anyone reminded of the French Revolution?
Yes. These people would beloong to the Jacobin party, had they
sufficient historical knowledge to know who they were (which I doubt).

Bob Harper
weary flake
2020-06-24 21:55:11 UTC
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Post by Bob Harper
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Frank Berger
Not only that, but all owner of Wagner recordings have to
destroy them and make a video stating that they have done so.
Frank is correct.  That is the proper response under the regime of
political correctness. -Tassilo
Is anyone reminded of the French Revolution?
Yes. These people would beloong to the Jacobin party, had they
sufficient historical knowledge to know who they were (which I doubt).
The Girondists were actually more radical such as
their calls for revolutionary France to invade the
world and kill everyone who wasn't a republican.
The Jacobins were more conservative in thought but
practiced the innovation of killing their republican
rivals. The Left arbritrarily claims the Jacobins
as "more worker" and the Girondists as "less worker"
but this has nothing to do with the groups
revolutionary ideologies.
Bob Harper
2020-06-25 18:38:22 UTC
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Post by weary flake
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Frank Berger
Not only that, but all owner of Wagner recordings have to
destroy them and make a video stating that they have done so.
Frank is correct.  That is the proper response under the regime of
political correctness. -Tassilo
Is anyone reminded of the French Revolution?
Yes. These people would beloong to the Jacobin party, had they
sufficient historical knowledge to know who they were (which I doubt).
The Girondists were actually more radical such as
their calls for revolutionary France to invade the
world and kill everyone who wasn't a republican.
The Jacobins were more conservative in thought but
practiced the innovation of killing their republican
rivals.  The Left arbritrarily claims the Jacobins
as "more worker" and the Girondists as "less worker"
but this has nothing to do with the groups
revolutionary ideologies.
Thanks for the information. By whatever name, they--and their modern-day
successors--were and are bad news.

Bob Harper
Frank Berger
2020-06-25 19:30:57 UTC
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Post by Bob Harper
Post by weary flake
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Frank Berger
On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 5:46:15 PM UTC-4, Frank
Post by Frank Berger
Not only that, but all owner of Wagner recordings have to
destroy them and make a video stating that they have
done so.
Frank is correct.  That is the proper response under
the regime of political correctness. -Tassilo
Is anyone reminded of the French Revolution?
Yes. These people would beloong to the Jacobin party, had
they sufficient historical knowledge to know who they
were (which I doubt).
The Girondists were actually more radical such as
their calls for revolutionary France to invade the
world and kill everyone who wasn't a republican.
The Jacobins were more conservative in thought but
practiced the innovation of killing their republican
rivals.  The Left arbritrarily claims the Jacobins
as "more worker" and the Girondists as "less worker"
but this has nothing to do with the groups
revolutionary ideologies.
Thanks for the information. By whatever name, they--and
their modern-day successors--were and are bad news.
Bob Harper
Submitted for first prize:

Country group Lady Antebellum has changed their name to Lady
A. Antebellum means literally "before the war (any war)"
but has come to mean in common parlance before the civil
war. So why is the name offensive?

"The decision, which the Grammy-winning group announced on
Twitter, comes "after much personal reflection" and
conversations with "closest black friends" as Antebellum
refers to a period of time "which includes slavery."

Never mind that every period of time, including the present,
includes slavery.
Al Eisner
2020-06-27 00:55:25 UTC
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On Thu, 25 Jun 2020, Frank Berger wrote:

[snipped discussion of the French revolution, which seems quite bizarre
in this forum - or even in thios context - unless one is discussing
a Poulenc opera or the like]
Country group Lady Antebellum has changed their name to Lady A. Antebellum
means literally "before the war (any war)" but has come to mean in common
parlance before the civil war. So why is the name offensive?
"The decision, which the Grammy-winning group announced on Twitter, comes
"after much personal reflection" and conversations with "closest black
friends" as Antebellum refers to a period of time "which includes slavery."
Never mind that every period of time, including the present, includes
slavery.
The name has come to refer to the plantation culture in the south,
That culture is surely repulsive, and I can see why the name itself
might be so regarded, especially as a token of nostalgia. I don't
get into the question of how repulsive a name like that has to be to
shun it. But it's certainly not in the category as "Wagner" (with a
V), who after all was an actual person who warrants respect at least
as a great composer.
--
Al Eisner
g***@gmail.com
2020-06-27 01:32:21 UTC
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Post by Al Eisner
[snipped discussion of the French revolution, which seems quite bizarre
in this forum - or even in thios context - unless one is discussing
a Poulenc opera or the like]
Country group Lady Antebellum has changed their name to Lady A. Antebellum
means literally "before the war (any war)" but has come to mean in common
parlance before the civil war. So why is the name offensive?
"The decision, which the Grammy-winning group announced on Twitter, comes
"after much personal reflection" and conversations with "closest black
friends" as Antebellum refers to a period of time "which includes slavery."
Never mind that every period of time, including the present, includes
slavery.
The name has come to refer to the plantation culture in the south,
That culture is surely repulsive, and I can see why the name itself
might be so regarded, especially as a token of nostalgia. I don't
get into the question of how repulsive a name like that has to be to
shun it. But it's certainly not in the category as "Wagner" (with a
V), who after all was an actual person who warrants respect at least
as a great composer.
--
Al Eisner
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.arts.movies.past-films/dQfJlekz1Sc
g***@gmail.com
2020-06-27 01:44:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Al Eisner
[snipped discussion of the French revolution, which seems quite bizarre
in this forum - or even in thios context - unless one is discussing
a Poulenc opera or the like]
Country group Lady Antebellum has changed their name to Lady A. Antebellum
means literally "before the war (any war)" but has come to mean in common
parlance before the civil war. So why is the name offensive?
"The decision, which the Grammy-winning group announced on Twitter, comes
"after much personal reflection" and conversations with "closest black
friends" as Antebellum refers to a period of time "which includes slavery."
Never mind that every period of time, including the present, includes
slavery.
The name has come to refer to the plantation culture in the south,
That culture is surely repulsive, and I can see why the name itself
might be so regarded, especially as a token of nostalgia. I don't
get into the question of how repulsive a name like that has to be to
shun it...
- ...It isn't that I mind splitting logs here in the mud, but I do mind what it stands for. I do mind, very much, the loss of the beauty of the old life I loved. Scarlett, before the war, life was beautiful. There was a glamor to it, a perfection and a completeness and a symmetry to it like Grecian
art. Maybe it wasn't so to everyone. I know that now...

Ashley Wilkes ("Gone With the Wind")

John Fowler
2020-06-07 21:46:27 UTC
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Post by John Fowler
We at Deutsche Grammophon stand in solidarity against all forms of racism, discrimination, bigotry and injustice. As a team we are energized to promote meaningful change through the power of music. In a dialogue with our community of artists we have started working on concrete initiatives and will share details soon.
https://www.youtube.com/post/Ugym4nCyXgmAh3EqGRp4AaABCQ
John Fowler
2020-06-07 21:51:47 UTC
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Turn in your Karajan Wagner recordings for a full refund + Reparations from DG.
Bob Harper
2020-06-07 22:07:59 UTC
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Post by John Fowler
Turn in your Karajan Wagner recordings for a full refund + Reparations from DG.
So does the same apply to recordings by Böhm and Kempff? And what about
Schwartzkopf?

Will the insanity ever stop?

Bob Harper
Néstor Castiglione
2020-06-07 22:21:18 UTC
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Hilariously enough, the Karajan Institute shared some vacuous platitudes about BLM on their IG page. Don't get me wrong—I love Karajan's recordings. But the ironic incongruity of their statement had me like, uh... do you guys know who you represent?
Post by John Fowler
We at Deutsche Grammophon stand in solidarity against all forms of racism, discrimination, bigotry and injustice. As a team we are energized to promote meaningful change through the power of music. In a dialogue with our community of artists we have started working on concrete initiatives and will share details soon.
v***@protonmail.com
2020-06-07 22:34:16 UTC
Reply
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Post by John Fowler
We at Deutsche Grammophon stand in solidarity against all forms of racism, discrimination, bigotry and injustice. As a team we are energized to promote meaningful change through the power of music. In a dialogue with our community of artists we have started working on concrete initiatives and will share details soon.
#hallofMirrors2020
number_six
2020-06-08 16:06:28 UTC
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Reached through a medium provided by the Menotti Foundation, Mikhail Ippolitov-Ivanov has issued a statement apologizing for some Sketches he composed during an era that was insufficiently woke under the standard that now prevails.
Bob Harper
2020-06-08 17:02:48 UTC
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Post by number_six
Reached through a medium provided by the Menotti Foundation, Mikhail Ippolitov-Ivanov has issued a statement apologizing for some Sketches he composed during an era that was insufficiently woke under the standard that now prevails.
^ Best post of the thread! :)

Bob Harper
Frank Berger
2020-06-08 17:11:46 UTC
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Post by number_six
Reached through a medium provided by the Menotti Foundation, Mikhail Ippolitov-Ivanov has issued a statement apologizing for some Sketches he composed during an era that was insufficiently woke under the standard that now prevails.
People are to be judged in absolute terms, If you weren't
woke in your own time (by today's standards), you can never
be woke.
j***@hotmail.com
2020-06-08 17:50:05 UTC
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Forget about Wagner. How about deleting all video productions of Otello?
Mr. Mike
2020-06-11 03:11:29 UTC
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Golliwogg's Cakewalk will definitely be verboten...
r***@gmail.com
2020-06-11 03:17:16 UTC
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Post by j***@hotmail.com
Forget about Wagner. How about deleting all video productions of Otello?
Presumably you mean the ones where the 'Moor' of Venice is not played by an Arab but a white or black man. Moors came from Morocco.

Richard
Randy Lane
2020-06-11 03:57:22 UTC
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I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
Oscar
2020-06-11 05:16:50 UTC
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Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
Don't do it, Randy!! We got you.
Frank Berger
2020-06-11 13:25:18 UTC
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Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
A double whammy.

What the hell is a whammy, anyway? Never mind, I'll look it up.
RANDY WOLFGANG
2020-06-12 04:38:05 UTC
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Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
How is this issue different from the prior blu ray release of the whole Karajan Ring? Do you need special equipment to play it? For me its the strongest part of that Ring
Randy Lane
2020-06-12 12:13:30 UTC
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Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
How is this issue different from the prior blu ray release of the whole Karajan Ring? Do you need special equipment to play it? For me its the strongest part of that Ring
It has been remastered again in DTS-HD 2.0 as 24bit/192K.

The last release, which had the entires Ring on one BluRay without the CDs, was of the previous Originals remaster, originating around 1998.

20 years techno advance possibly warrants a revisit.

Same with the Carlos Kleiber Der Freischütz that was released in Europe today also and releases in the USA next Friday 06/19/2020.

I would really like to see DG do a CD/BluRay combo of Kleiber's Symphony recordings - which is Just the Beethoven 5th and 7th, Schubert 3rd and 8th, and Brahms 4th. Would make a nice little package, with all being top nitch except may the Brahms 4th.
Randy Lane
2020-06-12 13:38:41 UTC
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Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
How is this issue different from the prior blu ray release of the whole Karajan Ring? Do you need special equipment to play it? For me its the strongest part of that Ring
(Repost with typos corrected)

It has been remastered again in DTS-HD 2.0 at 24bit/192K.

The last release, which had the entire Ring on one BluRay without the CDs, was of the previous Originals remaster, originating around 1998.

20 years techno advance possibly warrants a revisit.

Same with the Carlos Kleiber Der Freischütz that was released in Europe today also and releases in the USA next Friday 06/19/2020.

I would really like to see DG do a CD/BluRay combo of Kleiber's Symphony recordings - which is just the Beethoven 5th and 7th, Schubert 3rd and 8th, and Brahms 4th. Would make a nice little package, with all being top notch except may the Brahms 4th.
j***@hotmail.com
2020-06-12 14:26:21 UTC
Reply
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Post by Randy Lane
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
How is this issue different from the prior blu ray release of the whole Karajan Ring? Do you need special equipment to play it? For me its the strongest part of that Ring
(Repost with typos corrected)
It has been remastered again in DTS-HD 2.0 at 24bit/192K.
The last release, which had the entire Ring on one BluRay without the CDs, was of the previous Originals remaster, originating around 1998.
In my opinion, it's not any of the various transfers that have been lacking in the Karajan Ring, it's the original engineering that's problematic. Strings are too distant, bass is too light, and the whole sound is kind of echoic (notable in many of these DG 60s Jesus Christus recordings). In Die Walkure (the first of the four to be recorded, I think) these deficiencies are most apparent. Things got better as the cycle went a long, though. I think the last opera recorded, Gotterdammerung, sounds pretty good.
RANDY WOLFGANG
2020-06-12 15:18:25 UTC
Reply
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Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by Randy Lane
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
How is this issue different from the prior blu ray release of the whole Karajan Ring? Do you need special equipment to play it? For me its the strongest part of that Ring
(Repost with typos corrected)
It has been remastered again in DTS-HD 2.0 at 24bit/192K.
The last release, which had the entire Ring on one BluRay without the CDs, was of the previous Originals remaster, originating around 1998.
In my opinion, it's not any of the various transfers that have been lacking in the Karajan Ring, it's the original engineering that's problematic. Strings are too distant, bass is too light, and the whole sound is kind of echoic (notable in many of these DG 60s Jesus Christus recordings). In Die Walkure (the first of the four to be recorded, I think) these deficiencies are most apparent. Things got better as the cycle went a long, though. I think the last opera recorded, Gotterdammerung, sounds pretty good.
Unfortuntely as the sound got better the casts got worse
Randy Lane
2020-06-12 15:52:00 UTC
Reply
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Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by Randy Lane
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
How is this issue different from the prior blu ray release of the whole Karajan Ring? Do you need special equipment to play it? For me its the strongest part of that Ring
(Repost with typos corrected)
It has been remastered again in DTS-HD 2.0 at 24bit/192K.
The last release, which had the entire Ring on one BluRay without the CDs, was of the previous Originals remaster, originating around 1998.
In my opinion, it's not any of the various transfers that have been lacking in the Karajan Ring, it's the original engineering that's problematic. Strings are too distant, bass is too light, and the whole sound is kind of echoic (notable in many of these DG 60s Jesus Christus recordings). In Die Walkure (the first of the four to be recorded, I think) these deficiencies are most apparent. Things got better as the cycle went a long, though. I think the last opera recorded, Gotterdammerung, sounds pretty good.
That's why Karajan described his recording as a more Chamber Like Wagner than Solti.

Despite its shortcomings I always have appreciated opera-stage presence of the Karajan when compared to the more "film-score" ambience of Solti. I equally like both recordings.
RANDY WOLFGANG
2020-06-12 16:50:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Randy Lane
Post by j***@hotmail.com
Post by Randy Lane
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
How is this issue different from the prior blu ray release of the whole Karajan Ring? Do you need special equipment to play it? For me its the strongest part of that Ring
(Repost with typos corrected)
It has been remastered again in DTS-HD 2.0 at 24bit/192K.
The last release, which had the entire Ring on one BluRay without the CDs, was of the previous Originals remaster, originating around 1998.
In my opinion, it's not any of the various transfers that have been lacking in the Karajan Ring, it's the original engineering that's problematic. Strings are too distant, bass is too light, and the whole sound is kind of echoic (notable in many of these DG 60s Jesus Christus recordings). In Die Walkure (the first of the four to be recorded, I think) these deficiencies are most apparent. Things got better as the cycle went a long, though. I think the last opera recorded, Gotterdammerung, sounds pretty good.
That's why Karajan described his recording as a more Chamber Like Wagner than Solti.
Despite its shortcomings I always have appreciated opera-stage presence of the Karajan when compared to the more "film-score" ambience of Solti. I equally like both recordings.
I listen to both for different things - I listen to the Karajan for the beauty of the orchestral playing - the Solti for the virtuosity of the playing and the much stronger voices. For me the Walkure has always been the strongest of the Karajan Ring - the conducting esp in the last two Acts is really Golden Age and except for the whooping Walkures the cast is very strong. SoI guess this means I should get this new Walkure - I'll think it over - it is expensive.
RANDY WOLFGANG
2020-06-12 15:17:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Randy Lane
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
How is this issue different from the prior blu ray release of the whole Karajan Ring? Do you need special equipment to play it? For me its the strongest part of that Ring
(Repost with typos corrected)
It has been remastered again in DTS-HD 2.0 at 24bit/192K.
The last release, which had the entire Ring on one BluRay without the CDs, was of the previous Originals remaster, originating around 1998.
20 years techno advance possibly warrants a revisit.
Same with the Carlos Kleiber Der Freischütz that was released in Europe today also and releases in the USA next Friday 06/19/2020.
I would really like to see DG do a CD/BluRay combo of Kleiber's Symphony recordings - which is just the Beethoven 5th and 7th, Schubert 3rd and 8th, and Brahms 4th. Would make a nice little package, with all being top notch except may the Brahms 4th.
Oh so the last blu ray issue of the entire Karajan Ring was just the originals version pressed onto a blu ray?? It was not a new remaster??
Randy Lane
2020-06-12 15:49:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
How is this issue different from the prior blu ray release of the whole Karajan Ring? Do you need special equipment to play it? For me its the strongest part of that Ring
(Repost with typos corrected)
It has been remastered again in DTS-HD 2.0 at 24bit/192K.
The last release, which had the entire Ring on one BluRay without the CDs, was of the previous Originals remaster, originating around 1998.
20 years techno advance possibly warrants a revisit.
Same with the Carlos Kleiber Der Freischütz that was released in Europe today also and releases in the USA next Friday 06/19/2020.
I would really like to see DG do a CD/BluRay combo of Kleiber's Symphony recordings - which is just the Beethoven 5th and 7th, Schubert 3rd and 8th, and Brahms 4th. Would make a nice little package, with all being top notch except may the Brahms 4th.
Oh so the last blu ray issue of the entire Karajan Ring was just the originals version pressed onto a blu ray?? It was not a new remaster??
Correct.

And that has been the case with many of the DG/Decca CD/BluRay Audio combo sets. If it does not specify that it is "new", or at least that it is 24 bit / 192 Khz, then it is likely just a repackaging of a previously released digital version. Even in most of those cases though the BluRay audio represents a significant improvement over the previously released CDs.

In many of those instances the CDs are exactly the same as a previous CD version. These most of the time can be detected by looking at the front label. The first portion in the "CD/BluRay" part (usually a yellow bar) has the CD information - then "+" and the BluRay part. If the part to the left of the "+" does not say "Remastered", then the CDs contain the exact same audio that was on a previous release.

Close attention to the details is paramount to know what you are getting.
RANDY WOLFGANG
2020-06-12 16:51:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Randy Lane
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
How is this issue different from the prior blu ray release of the whole Karajan Ring? Do you need special equipment to play it? For me its the strongest part of that Ring
(Repost with typos corrected)
It has been remastered again in DTS-HD 2.0 at 24bit/192K.
The last release, which had the entire Ring on one BluRay without the CDs, was of the previous Originals remaster, originating around 1998.
20 years techno advance possibly warrants a revisit.
Same with the Carlos Kleiber Der Freischütz that was released in Europe today also and releases in the USA next Friday 06/19/2020.
I would really like to see DG do a CD/BluRay combo of Kleiber's Symphony recordings - which is just the Beethoven 5th and 7th, Schubert 3rd and 8th, and Brahms 4th. Would make a nice little package, with all being top notch except may the Brahms 4th.
Oh so the last blu ray issue of the entire Karajan Ring was just the originals version pressed onto a blu ray?? It was not a new remaster??
Correct.
And that has been the case with many of the DG/Decca CD/BluRay Audio combo sets. If it does not specify that it is "new", or at least that it is 24 bit / 192 Khz, then it is likely just a repackaging of a previously released digital version. Even in most of those cases though the BluRay audio represents a significant improvement over the previously released CDs.
In many of those instances the CDs are exactly the same as a previous CD version. These most of the time can be detected by looking at the front label. The first portion in the "CD/BluRay" part (usually a yellow bar) has the CD information - then "+" and the BluRay part. If the part to the left of the "+" does not say "Remastered", then the CDs contain the exact same audio that was on a previous release.
Close attention to the details is paramount to know what you are getting.
Thanks for the info
RANDY WOLFGANG
2020-06-14 14:02:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Randy Lane
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
How is this issue different from the prior blu ray release of the whole Karajan Ring? Do you need special equipment to play it? For me its the strongest part of that Ring
(Repost with typos corrected)
It has been remastered again in DTS-HD 2.0 at 24bit/192K.
The last release, which had the entire Ring on one BluRay without the CDs, was of the previous Originals remaster, originating around 1998.
20 years techno advance possibly warrants a revisit.
Same with the Carlos Kleiber Der Freischütz that was released in Europe today also and releases in the USA next Friday 06/19/2020.
I would really like to see DG do a CD/BluRay combo of Kleiber's Symphony recordings - which is just the Beethoven 5th and 7th, Schubert 3rd and 8th, and Brahms 4th. Would make a nice little package, with all being top notch except may the Brahms 4th.
Oh so the last blu ray issue of the entire Karajan Ring was just the originals version pressed onto a blu ray?? It was not a new remaster??
Correct.
And that has been the case with many of the DG/Decca CD/BluRay Audio combo sets. If it does not specify that it is "new", or at least that it is 24 bit / 192 Khz, then it is likely just a repackaging of a previously released digital version. Even in most of those cases though the BluRay audio represents a significant improvement over the previously released CDs.
In many of those instances the CDs are exactly the same as a previous CD version. These most of the time can be detected by looking at the front label. The first portion in the "CD/BluRay" part (usually a yellow bar) has the CD information - then "+" and the BluRay part. If the part to the left of the "+" does not say "Remastered", then the CDs contain the exact same audio that was on a previous release.
Close attention to the details is paramount to know what you are getting.
I have read that the Eloquence issue of the Karajan Ring is a separate remaster and an improvment over the Originals Issue, Can anyone confirm this???
Oscar
2020-06-15 08:06:57 UTC
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Permalink
“Literally shaking” is code for: Emotionally unstable adult-bodied child is about to ruin your career and reputation because you said something honest.
Oscar
2020-06-15 09:28:02 UTC
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Permalink
Li'l Abner by Al Kapp. From Los Angeles Times, Sept. 21, 1969, Sunday morning edition. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

"Days of S.W.I.N.E. and Noses"
https://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef0120a5ed5423970c-550wi

***Students Wildly Indignant About Nearly Everything
Randy Lane
2020-06-24 22:17:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Randy Lane
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
How is this issue different from the prior blu ray release of the whole Karajan Ring? Do you need special equipment to play it? For me its the strongest part of that Ring
(Repost with typos corrected)
It has been remastered again in DTS-HD 2.0 at 24bit/192K.
The last release, which had the entire Ring on one BluRay without the CDs, was of the previous Originals remaster, originating around 1998.
20 years techno advance possibly warrants a revisit.
Same with the Carlos Kleiber Der Freischütz that was released in Europe today also and releases in the USA next Friday 06/19/2020.
I would really like to see DG do a CD/BluRay combo of Kleiber's Symphony recordings - which is just the Beethoven 5th and 7th, Schubert 3rd and 8th, and Brahms 4th. Would make a nice little package, with all being top notch except may the Brahms 4th.
JPC listing stated this and the Kleiber Freiscütz were "new" remastering at 24 bit / 192K. Turns out they are the same ones used in the one-disk BluRay Ring and Kleiber Complete DG Recordings sets after all. Too bad I bought them from ImportCDs - had it been JPC I'd be returning them immediately.

Won't trust their details any longer.
RANDY WOLFGANG
2020-06-25 00:05:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Randy Lane
Post by Randy Lane
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
How is this issue different from the prior blu ray release of the whole Karajan Ring? Do you need special equipment to play it? For me its the strongest part of that Ring
(Repost with typos corrected)
It has been remastered again in DTS-HD 2.0 at 24bit/192K.
The last release, which had the entire Ring on one BluRay without the CDs, was of the previous Originals remaster, originating around 1998.
20 years techno advance possibly warrants a revisit.
Same with the Carlos Kleiber Der Freischütz that was released in Europe today also and releases in the USA next Friday 06/19/2020.
I would really like to see DG do a CD/BluRay combo of Kleiber's Symphony recordings - which is just the Beethoven 5th and 7th, Schubert 3rd and 8th, and Brahms 4th. Would make a nice little package, with all being top notch except may the Brahms 4th.
JPC listing stated this and the Kleiber Freiscütz were "new" remastering at 24 bit / 192K. Turns out they are the same ones used in the one-disk BluRay Ring and Kleiber Complete DG Recordings sets after all. Too bad I bought them from ImportCDs - had it been JPC I'd be returning them immediately.
Won't trust their details any longer.
So I would be better off getting the one disc Karajan Ring on blu-ray??
Randy Lane
2020-06-25 12:01:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
Post by Randy Lane
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
How is this issue different from the prior blu ray release of the whole Karajan Ring? Do you need special equipment to play it? For me its the strongest part of that Ring
(Repost with typos corrected)
It has been remastered again in DTS-HD 2.0 at 24bit/192K.
The last release, which had the entire Ring on one BluRay without the CDs, was of the previous Originals remaster, originating around 1998.
20 years techno advance possibly warrants a revisit.
Same with the Carlos Kleiber Der Freischütz that was released in Europe today also and releases in the USA next Friday 06/19/2020.
I would really like to see DG do a CD/BluRay combo of Kleiber's Symphony recordings - which is just the Beethoven 5th and 7th, Schubert 3rd and 8th, and Brahms 4th. Would make a nice little package, with all being top notch except may the Brahms 4th.
JPC listing stated this and the Kleiber Freiscütz were "new" remastering at 24 bit / 192K. Turns out they are the same ones used in the one-disk BluRay Ring and Kleiber Complete DG Recordings sets after all. Too bad I bought them from ImportCDs - had it been JPC I'd be returning them immediately.
Won't trust their details any longer.
So I would be better off getting the one disc Karajan Ring on blu-ray??
Yes.

You still get a multi language libretto, and the exact same audi.

The only difference with the single package version as it turns out is the inclusion of CDs.
RANDY WOLFGANG
2020-06-25 12:29:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Randy Lane
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
Post by Randy Lane
Post by RANDY WOLFGANG
Post by Randy Lane
I suppose for my own safety I should cancel my preorder of Die Walküre.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B086PLBCH6/
How is this issue different from the prior blu ray release of the whole Karajan Ring? Do you need special equipment to play it? For me its the strongest part of that Ring
(Repost with typos corrected)
It has been remastered again in DTS-HD 2.0 at 24bit/192K.
The last release, which had the entire Ring on one BluRay without the CDs, was of the previous Originals remaster, originating around 1998.
20 years techno advance possibly warrants a revisit.
Same with the Carlos Kleiber Der Freischütz that was released in Europe today also and releases in the USA next Friday 06/19/2020.
I would really like to see DG do a CD/BluRay combo of Kleiber's Symphony recordings - which is just the Beethoven 5th and 7th, Schubert 3rd and 8th, and Brahms 4th. Would make a nice little package, with all being top notch except may the Brahms 4th.
JPC listing stated this and the Kleiber Freiscütz were "new" remastering at 24 bit / 192K. Turns out they are the same ones used in the one-disk BluRay Ring and Kleiber Complete DG Recordings sets after all. Too bad I bought them from ImportCDs - had it been JPC I'd be returning them immediately.
Won't trust their details any longer.
So I would be better off getting the one disc Karajan Ring on blu-ray??
Yes.
You still get a multi language libretto, and the exact same audi.
The only difference with the single package version as it turns out is the inclusion of CDs.
Thanks for the info
Tassilo
2020-06-23 05:35:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Everybody has to issue such statements now or risk being dragged before a Stalinist tribunal. These statements have become meaningless because they are so obviously induced by fear. What about the Vermont school principal who was recently fired for daring to exercise her first amendment right to free speech on Facebook. She said that she wanted to support Black Lives Matter but doesn’t think “people should be made to feel they have to choose black race over human race. While I understand the urgency to feel compelled to advocate for black lives, what about our fellow law enforcement? What about all others who advocate for and demand equity for all? Just because I don’t walk around with a BLM sign should not mean I am a racist.”

-Tassilo
Post by John Fowler
We at Deutsche Grammophon stand in solidarity against all forms of racism, discrimination, bigotry and injustice. As a team we are energized to promote meaningful change through the power of music. In a dialogue with our community of artists we have started working on concrete initiatives and will share details soon.
Bob Harper
2020-06-24 18:56:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tassilo
Everybody has to issue such statements now or risk being dragged before a Stalinist tribunal. These statements have become meaningless because they are so obviously induced by fear. What about the Vermont school principal who was recently fired for daring to exercise her first amendment right to free speech on Facebook. She said that she wanted to support Black Lives Matter but doesn’t think “people should be made to feel they have to choose black race over human race. While I understand the urgency to feel compelled to advocate for black lives, what about our fellow law enforcement? What about all others who advocate for and demand equity for all? Just because I don’t walk around with a BLM sign should not mean I am a racist.”
-Tassilo
Post by John Fowler
We at Deutsche Grammophon stand in solidarity against all forms of racism, discrimination, bigotry and injustice. As a team we are energized to promote meaningful change through the power of music. In a dialogue with our community of artists we have started working on concrete initiatives and will share details soon.
Exactly right. The Committee for Public Safety will be reconvening
shortly, if it hasn't already.

Bob Harper
John Fowler
2020-06-23 20:45:09 UTC
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Permalink
Elihu Yale, after whom Yale University is named has been exposed as a slave trader.
Yale University to be renamed New Haven Community College.
g***@gmail.com
2020-06-24 00:31:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Fowler
Elihu Yale, after whom Yale University is named has been exposed as a slave trader.
Yale University to be renamed New Haven Community College.
(Recent NEWSHOUR segment):

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/what-the-future-could-hold-for-these-symbols-of-the-american-past
Owen
2020-06-25 01:18:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Fowler
Elihu Yale, after whom Yale University is named has been exposed as a slave trader.
Yale University to be renamed New Haven Community College.
John Brown, founder of Brown University (my alma mater!), has long been
outed as a slaver, and his museum/former residence tours have already
been adjusted to reflect this.

In Bristol, RI, I've seen "slaves quarters" in an early American former
mansion (now apartment building).

A lot of pre-revolutionary people in the North got rich on the slave
trade before they turned up their nose at it (most likely when they
weren't able to turn a profit at it anymore).

-Owen
g***@gmail.com
2020-06-25 01:40:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Owen
Post by John Fowler
Elihu Yale, after whom Yale University is named has been exposed as a slave trader.
Yale University to be renamed New Haven Community College.
John Brown, founder of Brown University (my alma mater!), has long been
outed as a slaver, and his museum/former residence tours have already
been adjusted to reflect this.
In Bristol, RI, I've seen "slaves quarters" in an early American former
mansion (now apartment building).
A lot of pre-revolutionary people in the North got rich on the slave
trade before they turned up their nose at it (most likely when they
weren't able to turn a profit at it anymore).
-Owen
And guess who got rich smuggling opium?:

- Astor wasn’t the only American to make his fortune in part through opium smuggling: Warren Delano, Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s father, made millions engaging in what hecalled a “fair, honorable and legitimate” trade.

https://www.history.com/news/john-jacob-astor-opium-fortune-millionaire
Andrew Clarke
2020-06-25 08:15:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Owen
Post by John Fowler
Elihu Yale, after whom Yale University is named has been exposed as a slave trader.
Yale University to be renamed New Haven Community College.
John Brown, founder of Brown University (my alma mater!), has long been
outed as a slaver, and his museum/former residence tours have already
been adjusted to reflect this.
In Bristol, RI, I've seen "slaves quarters" in an early American former
mansion (now apartment building).
A lot of pre-revolutionary people in the North got rich on the slave
trade before they turned up their nose at it (most likely when they
weren't able to turn a profit at it anymore).
Remember that when Honest Abe first outlawed slavery, he restricted the abolition to the Confederate states. He did this because the war wasn't going as well as he had hoped it would, and he hoped the proclamation would cause a slave uprising in the southern states would cripple the Confederate economy. You could still have slaves in Missouri I believe, because the Show Me state wasn't in the Confederacy.

I've read that a number of soldiers in the Union Army were horrified to learn that they were fighting to free the slaves. Their opinion was that they were fighting to preserve the Union, and they were fighting to prevent the spread of slavery into into free labour territories where that Peculiar Institution would depress the wages and opportunities of the working man.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
g***@gmail.com
2020-06-25 08:27:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Owen
Post by John Fowler
Elihu Yale, after whom Yale University is named has been exposed as a slave trader.
Yale University to be renamed New Haven Community College.
John Brown, founder of Brown University (my alma mater!), has long been
outed as a slaver, and his museum/former residence tours have already
been adjusted to reflect this.
In Bristol, RI, I've seen "slaves quarters" in an early American former
mansion (now apartment building).
A lot of pre-revolutionary people in the North got rich on the slave
trade before they turned up their nose at it (most likely when they
weren't able to turn a profit at it anymore).
Remember that when Honest Abe first outlawed slavery, he restricted the abolition to the Confederate states. He did this because the war wasn't going as well as he had hoped it would, and he hoped the proclamation would cause a slave uprising in the southern states would cripple the Confederate economy. You could still have slaves in Missouri I believe, because the Show Me state wasn't in the Confederacy.
I've read that a number of soldiers in the Union Army were horrified to learn that they were fighting to free the slaves. Their opinion was that they were fighting to preserve the Union, and they were fighting to prevent the spread of slavery into into free labour territories where that Peculiar Institution would depress the wages and opportunities of the working man.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
https://civilwaronthewesternborder.org/timeline/confederacy-admits-missouri#:~:text=A%2013%2Dstar%20Confederate%20Battle,a%20part%20of%20the%20Union.
Owen
2020-06-25 13:24:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Owen
Post by John Fowler
Elihu Yale, after whom Yale University is named has been exposed as a slave trader.
Yale University to be renamed New Haven Community College.
John Brown, founder of Brown University (my alma mater!), has long been
outed as a slaver, and his museum/former residence tours have already
been adjusted to reflect this.
In Bristol, RI, I've seen "slaves quarters" in an early American former
mansion (now apartment building).
A lot of pre-revolutionary people in the North got rich on the slave
trade before they turned up their nose at it (most likely when they
weren't able to turn a profit at it anymore).
Remember that when Honest Abe first outlawed slavery, he restricted the abolition to the Confederate states. He did this because the war wasn't going as well as he had hoped it would, and he hoped the proclamation would cause a slave uprising in the southern states would cripple the Confederate economy. You could still have slaves in Missouri I believe, because the Show Me state wasn't in the Confederacy.
He restricted the abolition to the Confederate states because 1) he did
not have the power to do so in States not in "open rebellion" (nor did
he want to give them a reason to reverse their stand and fight for the
other side) and 2) he wanted to make it clear to the South that he did
not want a negotiated peace by which the slavery "question" (which tore
the States apart for decades) was still existing. That had to be
resolved, and the Proclamation made it such that for Southern States to
return to peaceful normalcy, they could no longer have slavery.

As far as Missouri and other border States, by removing slavery in the
core of the Confederacy, it really could not exist on its own in
isolated places. A subsequent Constitutional amendment mopped up the
last remaining ramparts of that hateful practise.

I don't think Lincoln had much hope in a slave uprising, particularly
after years of war, and there were already factors which were hurting
the Southern economy, mainly that Europe had stocked up on cotton in the
pre-war years and the Northern naval blockade had restricted trading.
Post by Andrew Clarke
I've read that a number of soldiers in the Union Army were horrified to learn that they were fighting to free the slaves. Their opinion was that they were fighting to preserve the Union, and they were fighting to prevent the spread of slavery into into free labour territories where that Peculiar Institution would depress the wages and opportunities of the working man.
The draft riots in New York were due to fear that emancipation would
mean workers replacement in the labor force by thousands of freed black
slaves from the South.

On the other side, most of the Confederate fighters didn't own slaves,
would never own them, and were too poor to own them. When asked by
Union soldiers "then why are you fighting?" the response was "because
you're down here."

-Owen
Frank Berger
2020-06-25 15:25:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Owen
Post by John Fowler
Elihu Yale, after whom Yale University is named has been exposed as a slave trader.
Yale University to be renamed New Haven Community College.
John Brown, founder of Brown University (my alma mater!), has long been
outed as a slaver, and his museum/former residence tours have already
been adjusted to reflect this.
In Bristol, RI, I've seen "slaves quarters" in an early American former
mansion (now apartment building).
A lot of pre-revolutionary people in the North got rich on the slave
trade before they turned up their nose at it (most likely when they
weren't able to turn a profit at it anymore).
Remember that when Honest Abe first outlawed slavery, he restricted the abolition to the Confederate states. He did this because the war wasn't going as well as he had hoped it would, and he hoped the proclamation would cause a slave uprising in the southern states would cripple the Confederate economy. You could still have slaves in Missouri I believe, because the Show Me state wasn't in the Confederacy.
I've read that a number of soldiers in the Union Army were horrified to learn that they were fighting to free the slaves. Their opinion was that they were fighting to preserve the Union, and they were fighting to prevent the spread of slavery into into free labour territories where that Peculiar Institution would depress the wages and opportunities of the working man.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
There is no question that it is difficult to get our 21st
century heads around the concept of slavery. The "Western"
experience is whites enslaving blacks, but the history of
slavery is not limited to one race enslaving another. We
are a poor excuse for a species. All we can hope is that we
move forward (whether the speed at which we do that is
acceptable is another matter). As a Conservative, I usually
shy away from the term "everything is relative," but
sometimes it applies. Even in the bible, the concept of
indentured servitude was a (huge) step up from outright
slavery.
Andrew Clarke
2020-06-24 00:56:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Fowler
We at Deutsche Grammophon stand in solidarity against all forms of racism, discrimination, bigotry and injustice. As a team we are energized to promote meaningful change through the power of music. In a dialogue with our community of artists we have started working on concrete initiatives and will share details soon.
So nothing sung in Latin, as the Romans had slaves.

All Kyries to be omitted from recordings of the Mass as the Greeks had slaves too.

The "Nigra sum" to be omitted from the Monteverdi Vespers (somebody might think they sang "n*gg*r").

No negro spirituals (ditto).

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Bob Harper
2020-06-24 19:02:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by John Fowler
We at Deutsche Grammophon stand in solidarity against all forms of racism, discrimination, bigotry and injustice. As a team we are energized to promote meaningful change through the power of music. In a dialogue with our community of artists we have started working on concrete initiatives and will share details soon.
So nothing sung in Latin, as the Romans had slaves.
All Kyries to be omitted from recordings of the Mass as the Greeks had slaves too.
The "Nigra sum" to be omitted from the Monteverdi Vespers (somebody might think they sang "n*gg*r").
No negro spirituals (ditto).
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
And God help anyone who uses a word beginning with 'n' for someone who
is cheap or ungenerous, despite the fact that there is no etymological
connection. See etymonline.com.

Bob Harper
graham
2020-06-24 21:08:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by John Fowler
We at Deutsche Grammophon stand in solidarity against all forms of
racism, discrimination, bigotry and injustice. As a team we are
energized to promote meaningful change through the power of music. In
a dialogue with our community of artists we have started working on
concrete initiatives and will share details soon.
So nothing sung in Latin, as the Romans had slaves.
All Kyries to be omitted from recordings of the Mass as the Greeks had slaves too.
The "Nigra sum" to be omitted from the Monteverdi Vespers (somebody
might think they sang "n*gg*r").
No negro spirituals (ditto).
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
And God help anyone who uses a word beginning with 'n' for someone who
is cheap or ungenerous, despite the fact that there is no etymological
connection. See etymonline.com.
Bob Harper
I read an article by a feminist journalist some years ago where she
expressed discomfort with the word "person", because of the last 3
letters!!!!
She probably wouldn't attend a "Son et Lumière" either.
Bob Harper
2020-06-25 18:37:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by graham
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by John Fowler
We at Deutsche Grammophon stand in solidarity against all forms of
racism, discrimination, bigotry and injustice. As a team we are
energized to promote meaningful change through the power of music.
In a dialogue with our community of artists we have started working
on concrete initiatives and will share details soon.
So nothing sung in Latin, as the Romans had slaves.
All Kyries to be omitted from recordings of the Mass as the Greeks had slaves too.
The "Nigra sum" to be omitted from the Monteverdi Vespers (somebody
might think they sang "n*gg*r").
No negro spirituals (ditto).
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
And God help anyone who uses a word beginning with 'n' for someone who
is cheap or ungenerous, despite the fact that there is no etymological
connection. See etymonline.com.
Bob Harper
I read an article by a feminist journalist some years ago where she
expressed discomfort with the word "person", because of the last 3
letters!!!!
She probably wouldn't attend a "Son et Lumière" either.
I don't know the emoji for Slap My Head, so I'll just say smh.

Bob Harper
John Fowler
2020-06-25 13:37:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
The Democratic Party platform in the 1864 presidential election called for an end to fighting and letting the Southern states leave in peace with their slaves.
"War Democrats" like Sen. Andrew Johnson of Tenesee were a minority.
Lincoln dumped his first term VP (Hannibal Hamlin) and replaced him with Democrat Andrew Johnson in a "National Union" ticket.
Northern Democrats nominated General George McClellan (fired by Lincoln) for president.
He hated Lincoln's guts almost as much as General Mattis hates Trump's.
Progress.

The Republican Party was founded by Abolitionists in 1854.
Slavery ended eleven years later in 1865.
Fast work.
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