Discussion:
CHOSTA...
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Chris J.
2021-04-04 15:54:06 UTC
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And finally, the MUST of the MUST : *Richter* / *Borodin* (Melodiya
1983)...There, you should be happy...It seems to me that these are very
rare artists who seem to suit you...Underline like nobody else the
violence, the bitterness and the despair of this masterpiece...
But finally, definitely, the essential must of the must of the must:

Dmitri Shostakovich / Beethoven Quartet (rec. 1950).


Chris
MELMOTH
2021-04-04 16:06:39 UTC
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Post by Chris J.
Dmitri Shostakovich / Beethoven Quartet (rec. 1950).
I do agree...
Dan Koren
2021-04-05 02:24:04 UTC
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My dearest Koren...As you know (and I know you know everything about
me), I have the good fortune to be an insomniac (always have been...And
like my friend Emil Cioran, whom I had the good fortune and honor to
meet in Paris shortly before his death, and who, as you know, was crazy
about music too, like you)...
Cioran was a fascist hooligan. He was crazy about many things besides
music, and in particular about "making Romania great again" by getting
rid of Jews and other ethnic and religious minorities. He was a vocal
antisemite and he supported Corneliu Zelea Codreanu and his brown
shirt Iron Guard militia that assassinated several right wing Romanian
politicians who were not as extreme as he would have liked.

To describe Cioran as a "philosopher" is such an abyss of imbecility
that you no longer have any credit left with me. Remember several
high profile Nazis were also great music lovers and even had their
fingers on the bow or the on the keys when they were not pulling
the trigger on innocent people.
.
dk
MELMOTH
2021-04-05 08:35:04 UTC
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Post by Dan Koren
Cioran was a fascist hooligan. He was crazy about many things besides
music, and in particular about "making Romania great again" by getting
rid of Jews and other ethnic and religious minorities. He was a vocal
antisemite and he supported Corneliu Zelea Codreanu and his brown
shirt Iron Guard militia that assassinated several right wing Romanian
politicians who were not as extreme as he would have liked.
My god !...How could I make such a mistake ?...Is it true, everything
you say ?...I had also noticed a strange smell, in her maid's
room...Nazi smell, do you think ?...And these greenish-grey wallpapers
!...How could I fall in such a trap...Thank you, my love, to have
opened my eyes...
I would like to ask you a huge favor: which recordings, which books
should I throw away?...As you know, I have already burned all the
Arrau, Annie Fischer, Farnadi, Trifonov, Yudina, Nicolaieva, Wagner,
Bruckner...Should I throw away Beethoven too?...
I will throw away all my Cioran, Arouët, Destouches...Vincent d'Indy, I
promise you...
But how could I live 76 long years without knowing you ?!...You are the
Star which illuminates my mediocre life...How can I thank you enough
!...
Please...I beg you to forgive all my mistakes...Please, darling,
forgive me...I know you will be able to...
In advance, many thanks to you...
I love you...
Henk vT
2021-04-05 10:06:55 UTC
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Post by Dan Koren
My dearest Koren...As you know (and I know you know everything about
me), I have the good fortune to be an insomniac (always have been...And
like my friend Emil Cioran, whom I had the good fortune and honor to
meet in Paris shortly before his death, and who, as you know, was crazy
about music too, like you)...
Cioran was a fascist hooligan. He was crazy about many things besides
music, and in particular about "making Romania great again" by getting
rid of Jews and other ethnic and religious minorities. He was a vocal
antisemite and he supported Corneliu Zelea Codreanu and his brown
shirt Iron Guard militia that assassinated several right wing Romanian
politicians who were not as extreme as he would have liked.
This is all true of young Cioran, before he left for France in the late 1930s.

Henk
Post by Dan Koren
To describe Cioran as a "philosopher" is such an abyss of imbecility
that you no longer have any credit left with me. Remember several
high profile Nazis were also great music lovers and even had their
fingers on the bow or the on the keys when they were not pulling
the trigger on innocent people.
.
dk
MELMOTH
2021-04-05 11:20:30 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
This is all true of young Cioran, before he left for France in the late 1930s.
Master Koren talks about Emil Cioran's *YOUTH*...Who hasn't made
mistakes in his youth?...We have obviously discussed this, and he tells
me that he deeply regretted this sad period of his youth...
Ferdinand Destouches, François-Marie Arouët, Robert Wagner and so many
others were IMMENSE artists, although anti-Semitic (and they, all their
lives)...*Personally I have always distinguished the Works from the
Men*...

I knew *Stéphane Hessel* , a great Resistance fighter, who died
recently...He was pro-German and extreme right-wing in his
youth...Before becoming the great Resistance fighter and Humanist that
we know...And examples like that exist in thousands...But all that
seems to go beyond Master Koren...

And to speak of Cioran as he does, one must at least have read some of
his works...One of the most beautiful French languages in all of
literature...But I doubt that he has ever opened a single one of his
works...
Cioran...Arrau...Wagner...And hundreds of artists praised all over the
world end up in his dustbin...Free to him...I do not despair that one
day he will become normal and reasonable again...One should never
despair of the human race, should one...Even if Cioran was very
pessimistic on this point!...
But I love him so much...
Frank Berger
2021-04-05 12:49:25 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
This is all true of young Cioran, before he left for France in the late 1930s.
Master Koren talks about Emil Cioran's *YOUTH*...Who hasn't made mistakes in his youth?...We have obviously discussed this, and he tells me that he deeply regretted this sad period of his youth...
Ferdinand Destouches, François-Marie Arouët, Robert Wagner and so many others were IMMENSE artists, although anti-Semitic (and they, all their lives)...*Personally I have always distinguished the Works from the Men*...
I knew *Stéphane Hessel* , a great Resistance fighter, who died recently...He was pro-German and extreme right-wing in his youth...Before becoming the great Resistance fighter and Humanist that we know...And examples like that exist in thousands...But all that seems to go beyond Master Koren...
And to speak of Cioran as he does, one must at least have read some of his works...One of the most beautiful French languages in all of literature...But I doubt that he has ever opened a single one of his works...
Cioran...Arrau...Wagner...And hundreds of artists praised all over the world end up in his dustbin...Free to him...I do not despair that one day he will become normal and reasonable again...One should never despair of the human race, should one...Even if Cioran was very pessimistic on this point!...
But I love him so much...
In a woke world, Cioran can n ot be forgiven.
Henk vT
2021-04-05 14:18:38 UTC
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Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
This is all true of young Cioran, before he left for France in the late 1930s.
Master Koren talks about Emil Cioran's *YOUTH*...Who hasn't made mistakes in his youth?...We have obviously discussed this, and he tells me that he deeply regretted this sad period of his youth...
Ferdinand Destouches, François-Marie Arouët, Robert Wagner and so many others were IMMENSE artists, although anti-Semitic (and they, all their lives)...*Personally I have always distinguished the Works from the Men*...
I knew *Stéphane Hessel* , a great Resistance fighter, who died recently...He was pro-German and extreme right-wing in his youth...Before becoming the great Resistance fighter and Humanist that we know...And examples like that exist in thousands...But all that seems to go beyond Master Koren...
And to speak of Cioran as he does, one must at least have read some of his works...One of the most beautiful French languages in all of literature...But I doubt that he has ever opened a single one of his works...
Cioran...Arrau...Wagner...And hundreds of artists praised all over the world end up in his dustbin...Free to him...I do not despair that one day he will become normal and reasonable again...One should never despair of the human race, should one...Even if Cioran was very pessimistic on this point!...
But I love him so much...
In a woke world, Cioran can n ot be forgiven.
<g> Some people desperately want to be on the right side - whatever it takes ...

Henk
JohnGavin
2021-04-05 14:44:50 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
This is all true of young Cioran, before he left for France in the late 1930s.
Master Koren talks about Emil Cioran's *YOUTH*...Who hasn't made mistakes in his youth?...We have obviously discussed this, and he tells me that he deeply regretted this sad period of his youth...
Ferdinand Destouches, François-Marie Arouët, Robert Wagner and so many others were IMMENSE artists, although anti-Semitic (and they, all their lives)...*Personally I have always distinguished the Works from the Men*...
I knew *Stéphane Hessel* , a great Resistance fighter, who died recently...He was pro-German and extreme right-wing in his youth...Before becoming the great Resistance fighter and Humanist that we know...And examples like that exist in thousands...But all that seems to go beyond Master Koren...
And to speak of Cioran as he does, one must at least have read some of his works...One of the most beautiful French languages in all of literature...But I doubt that he has ever opened a single one of his works...
Cioran...Arrau...Wagner...And hundreds of artists praised all over the world end up in his dustbin...Free to him...I do not despair that one day he will become normal and reasonable again...One should never despair of the human race, should one...Even if Cioran was very pessimistic on this point!...
But I love him so much...
Some pertinent lyrics to a song by Johnny Mercer:

You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mister In-Between

You've got to spread joy up to the maximum
Bring gloom down to the minimum
Have faith or pandemonium
Liable to walk upon the scene
Bob Harper
2021-04-05 18:17:45 UTC
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Post by Frank Berger
Post by MELMOTH
Post by Henk vT
This is all true of young Cioran, before he left for France in the late 1930s.
Master Koren talks about Emil Cioran's *YOUTH*...Who hasn't made
mistakes in his youth?...We have obviously discussed this, and he
tells me that he deeply regretted this sad period of his youth...
Ferdinand Destouches, François-Marie Arouët, Robert Wagner and so many
others were IMMENSE artists, although anti-Semitic (and they, all
their lives)...*Personally I have always distinguished the Works from
the Men*...
I knew *Stéphane Hessel* , a great Resistance fighter, who died
recently...He was pro-German and extreme right-wing in his
youth...Before becoming the great Resistance fighter and Humanist that
we know...And examples like that exist in thousands...But all that
seems to go beyond Master Koren...
And to speak of Cioran as he does, one must at least have read some of
his works...One of the most beautiful French languages in all of
literature...But I doubt that he has ever opened a single one of his
works...
Cioran...Arrau...Wagner...And hundreds of artists praised all over the
world end up in his dustbin...Free to him...I do not despair that one
day he will become normal and reasonable again...One should never
despair of the human race, should one...Even if Cioran was very
pessimistic on this point!...
But I love him so much...
In a woke world, Cioran can n ot be forgiven.
And this is the true evil of wokeness--its denial that redemption is
possible. If that is the case, them absolutely everyone will not be
forgiven; it's just a matter of time until some unforgivable offense is
discovered. I know you and I reject that, Frank, but I'm not sure some
of the voices here would agree.

Bob Harper
Henk vT
2021-04-05 19:30:59 UTC
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Post by Bob Harper
Post by Frank Berger
Post by MELMOTH
Post by Henk vT
This is all true of young Cioran, before he left for France in the late 1930s.
Master Koren talks about Emil Cioran's *YOUTH*...Who hasn't made
mistakes in his youth?...We have obviously discussed this, and he
tells me that he deeply regretted this sad period of his youth...
Ferdinand Destouches, François-Marie Arouët, Robert Wagner and so many
others were IMMENSE artists, although anti-Semitic (and they, all
their lives)...*Personally I have always distinguished the Works from
the Men*...
I knew *Stéphane Hessel* , a great Resistance fighter, who died
recently...He was pro-German and extreme right-wing in his
youth...Before becoming the great Resistance fighter and Humanist that
we know...And examples like that exist in thousands...But all that
seems to go beyond Master Koren...
And to speak of Cioran as he does, one must at least have read some of
his works...One of the most beautiful French languages in all of
literature...But I doubt that he has ever opened a single one of his
works...
Cioran...Arrau...Wagner...And hundreds of artists praised all over the
world end up in his dustbin...Free to him...I do not despair that one
day he will become normal and reasonable again...One should never
despair of the human race, should one...Even if Cioran was very
pessimistic on this point!...
But I love him so much...
In a woke world, Cioran can n ot be forgiven.
And this is the true evil of wokeness--its denial that redemption is
possible. If that is the case, them absolutely everyone will not be
forgiven; it's just a matter of time until some unforgivable offense is
discovered. I know you and I reject that, Frank, but I'm not sure some
of the voices here would agree.
Bob Harper
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the belief that to be righteous one must purify the world and even its history (our memories) of all evil. Inquisition and Crusades added: by all possible means. So did the great ideologies, for example behind the Iron Curtain and the Great Wall.

We are nowhere near that point yet here in the West, in my opinion. What does surprise me however is that so many are attracted by the idea of purification.

Henk
Todd Michel McComb
2021-04-05 19:36:53 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
belief that to be righteous one must purify the world and even its
history (our memories) of all evil.
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
ongoing bad behavior.

Stop that, and I'll move on so fast your head will spin.
Lawrence Kart
2021-04-05 19:55:44 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Post by Henk vT
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
belief that to be righteous one must purify the world and even its
history (our memories) of all evil.
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
ongoing bad behavior.
Stop that, and I'll move on so fast your head will spin.
Lawrence Kart
2021-04-05 20:28:31 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Post by Henk vT
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
belief that to be righteous one must purify the world and even its
history (our memories) of all evil.
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
ongoing bad behavior.
Stop that, and I'll move on so fast your head will spin.
Cioran was nothing compared to his friend from the Iron Guard days in Romania, Mircea Eliade. Cioran at least had the sense to repudiate or attempt to repudiate his former dire behavior, but Eliade, who among other things favored hanging Jews from meathooks -- this was undisguised Iron Guard policy --- never backtracked one bit from this stance in his later years in America as a much belauded scholar of religion and myth.
Dan Koren
2021-04-05 21:50:52 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Kart
Post by Henk vT
Post by Henk vT
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
belief that to be righteous one must purify the world and even its
history (our memories) of all evil.
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
ongoing bad behavior.
Stop that, and I'll move on so fast your head will spin.
Cioran was nothing compared to his friend from the Iron Guard days in
Romania, Mircea Eliade. Cioran at least had the sense to repudiate or
attempt to repudiate his former dire behavior, but Eliade, who among
other things favored hanging Jews from meathooks -- this was
undisguised Iron Guard policy --- never backtracked one bit from
this stance in his later years in America as a much belauded scholar
of religion and myth.
Thanks for mentioning! It is good to see other folks in this ng
know and remember the history of antisemitism in Romania.

dk
Lawrence Kart
2021-04-05 19:56:01 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Post by Henk vT
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
belief that to be righteous one must purify the world and even its
history (our memories) of all evil.
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
ongoing bad behavior.
Stop that, and I'll move on so fast your head will spin.
Henk vT
2021-04-05 20:53:48 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Post by Henk vT
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
belief that to be righteous one must purify the world and even its
history (our memories) of all evil.
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
ongoing bad behavior.
Stop that, and I'll move on so fast your head will spin.
You'll move on from where? What is the ongoing bad behaviour you are referring to?

Henk
Todd Michel McComb
2021-04-05 20:57:45 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
You'll move on from where? What is the ongoing bad behaviour you are referring to?
The general sort of racism, sexism & exploitation in general that
dominates our world & its history. The same people continue doing
the same things while telling the rest of us to "move on."
Henk vT
2021-04-06 09:54:06 UTC
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Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by Henk vT
You'll move on from where? What is the ongoing bad behaviour you are referring to?
The general sort of racism, sexism & exploitation in general that
dominates our world & its history. The same people continue doing
the same things while telling the rest of us to "move on."
There will always be racism and sexism and exploitation - and war and genocide, etc. Moving on as if it didn't happen is one way to deal with it. Looking back and trying to erase what happened is another. Not moving on, but taking note of what is happening here and now, is very hard, even for those whose profession it is (and who have the means to do it).

Henk
Todd Michel McComb
2021-04-06 16:24:52 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
There will always be racism and sexism and exploitation - and war
and genocide, etc.
I guess this statement is an improvement on the prior one about
purity.... These are historical phenomena, though. I certainly do
not share your attitude.
Post by Henk vT
Moving on as if it didn't happen is one way to deal with it.
As if it didn't happen.... Funny! Let's start with not thrown in
my face every single day....
Henk vT
2021-04-06 16:31:47 UTC
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Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by Henk vT
There will always be racism and sexism and exploitation - and war
and genocide, etc.
I guess this statement is an improvement on the prior one about
purity.... These are historical phenomena, though. I certainly do
not share your attitude.
Post by Henk vT
Moving on as if it didn't happen is one way to deal with it.
As if it didn't happen.... Funny! Let's start with not thrown in
my face every single day....
<g> My earlier statement wasn't about purity. It was about purification. Whether eradication is an improvement ...
We certainly have different attitudes. It also seems that we speak different languages.

Henk
Todd Michel McComb
2021-04-06 16:34:59 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
<g> My earlier statement wasn't about purity. It was about purification.
Whether eradication is an improvement ...
We certainly have different attitudes. It also seems that we speak different languages.
Are you familiar with the concept of "European Universalism"?
Wallerstein wrote a book with that title, but it's a much more
elaborated theme in critical theory.

(To me, purity & purification are just aspects of the same thing.)
Henk vT
2021-04-06 18:56:52 UTC
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Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by Henk vT
<g> My earlier statement wasn't about purity. It was about purification.
Whether eradication is an improvement ...
We certainly have different attitudes. It also seems that we speak different languages.
Are you familiar with the concept of "European Universalism"?
Wallerstein wrote a book with that title, but it's a much more
elaborated theme in critical theory.
(To me, purity & purification are just aspects of the same thing.)
I am not familiar with the book or the concept. If I remember correctly, it is about the relationship between Western civilization and its so-called universal values and Western imperialism (interventionism, since WWII).

As you say, the thrust of Wallerstein's book is not new. Why do you want to know if I had read it? <g>

Henk
Todd Michel McComb
2021-04-06 19:29:35 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
As you say, the thrust of Wallerstein's book is not new. Why do
you want to know if I had read it?
Well, I actually asked if you were familiar with the concept (&
added some context, hopefully helpfully).

Why? Your post reeked of this universalist attitude to me... or
else projected it onto the colonized. (And do note that I say "Your
post...." I make no further comment on what you believe.)
Henk vT
2021-04-06 21:25:53 UTC
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Post by Todd Michel McComb
As you say, the thrust of Wallerstein's book is not new. Why do
you want to know if I had read it?
Well, I actually asked if you were familiar with the concept (&
added some context, hopefully helpfully).
Why? Your post reeked of this universalist attitude to me... or
else projected it onto the colonized. (And do note that I say "Your
post...." I make no further comment on what you believe.)
I appreciate your.explanation. We not only have different attitudes and speak different languages, we also live in different worlds. Let's not colonize each other and stay where we belong.

My very best wishes,
Henk
Todd Michel McComb
2021-04-06 21:37:18 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Let's not colonize each other and stay where we belong.
It may be a bit late for that....

But sure, best wishes to you as well.
Henk vT
2021-04-06 22:17:09 UTC
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Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by Henk vT
Let's not colonize each other and stay where we belong.
It may be a bit late for that....
<g> Touché!
Post by Todd Michel McComb
But sure, best wishes to you as well.
Frank Berger
2021-04-05 21:41:56 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Post by Henk vT
Post by Henk vT
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
belief that to be righteous one must purify the world and even its
history (our memories) of all evil.
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
ongoing bad behavior.
Stop that, and I'll move on so fast your head will spin.
You'll move on from where? What is the ongoing bad behaviour you are referring to?
Henk
I guess he means, "Once a Fascist, always a Fascist."
Dan Koren
2021-04-05 21:48:16 UTC
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Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
Post by Henk vT
Post by Henk vT
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of
the belief that to be righteous one must purify the world and
even its history (our memories) of all evil.
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of
the ongoing bad behavior.
Stop that, and I'll move on so fast your head will spin.
You'll move on from where? What is the ongoing bad behaviour
you are referring to?
I guess he means, "Once a Fascist, always a Fascist."
Have you ever met or seen a counter-example?

dk
Todd Michel McComb
2021-04-05 22:00:18 UTC
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Post by Dan Koren
Post by Frank Berger
I guess he means, "Once a Fascist, always a Fascist."
Have you ever met or seen a counter-example?
"Move on. Get over it. It's ancient history. Forgive & forget!
How dare you touch our statues!"
Lawrence Kart
2021-04-05 22:31:08 UTC
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Post by Dan Koren
Post by Frank Berger
I guess he means, "Once a Fascist, always a Fascist."
Have you ever met or seen a counter-example?
"Move on. Get over it. It's ancient history. Forgive & forget!
How dare you touch our statues!"
Lawrence Kart
2021-04-05 23:04:10 UTC
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Post by Dan Koren
Post by Frank Berger
I guess he means, "Once a Fascist, always a Fascist."
Have you ever met or seen a counter-example?
"Move on. Get over it. It's ancient history. Forgive & forget!
How dare you touch our statues!"
Eliade in 1939:
"The Poles' resistance in Warsaw is a Jewish resistance. Only yids are capable of the blackmail of putting women and children in the front line, to take advantage of the Germans' sense of scruple. The Germans have no interest in the destruction of Romania. Only a pro-German government can save us... What is happening on the frontier with Bukovina is a scandal, because new waves of Jews are flooding into the country. Rather than a Romania again invaded by kikes, it would be better to have a German protectorate."
Henk vT
2021-04-06 10:08:23 UTC
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Post by Dan Koren
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
Post by Henk vT
Post by Henk vT
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of
the belief that to be righteous one must purify the world and
even its history (our memories) of all evil.
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of
the ongoing bad behavior.
Stop that, and I'll move on so fast your head will spin.
You'll move on from where? What is the ongoing bad behaviour you are referring to?
I guess he means, "Once a Fascist, always a Fascist."
Have you ever met or seen a counter-example?
dk
If the rule holds: once then always, then counterexamples are excluded in advance.

Henk
Bob Harper
2021-04-06 01:38:11 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Post by Henk vT
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
belief that to be righteous one must purify the world and even its
history (our memories) of all evil.
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
ongoing bad behavior.
Stop that, and I'll move on so fast your head will spin.
Bad according to whom, Todd?

I love this scene in Hamlet just after the Players have arrived:

HAMLET
'Tis well: I'll have thee speak out the rest soon.
Good my lord, will you see the players well
bestowed? Do you hear, let them be well used; for
they are the abstract and brief chronicles of the
time: after your death you were better have a bad
epitaph than their ill report while you live.

LORD POLONIUS
My lord, I will use them according to their desert.

HAMLET
God's bodykins, man, much better: use every man
after his desert, and who should 'scape whipping?
Use them after your own honour and dignity: the less
they deserve, the more merit is in your bounty.
Take them in.

Bob Harpere
Todd Michel McComb
2021-04-06 01:46:30 UTC
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Post by Bob Harper
Post by Henk vT
The impossibility of forgiveness is a direct consequence of the
ongoing bad behavior.
Bad according to whom, Todd?
Badness as already implied internally to the apology and/or claim
that something has ended. Whatever that is. In fact my comments
are extremely straightforward.
Frank Berger
2021-04-05 20:35:06 UTC
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Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
This is all true of young Cioran, before he left for France in the late 1930s.
Master Koren talks about Emil Cioran's *YOUTH*...Who hasn't made mistakes in his youth?...We have obviously discussed this, and he tells me that he deeply regretted this sad period of his youth...
Ferdinand Destouches, François-Marie Arouët, Robert Wagner and so many others were IMMENSE artists, although anti-Semitic (and they, all their lives)...*Personally I have always distinguished the Works from the Men*...
I knew *Stéphane Hessel* , a great Resistance fighter, who died recently...He was pro-German and extreme right-wing in his youth...Before becoming the great Resistance fighter and Humanist that we know...And examples like that exist in thousands...But all that seems to go beyond Master Koren...
And to speak of Cioran as he does, one must at least have read some of his works...One of the most beautiful French languages in all of literature...But I doubt that he has ever opened a single one of his works...
Cioran...Arrau...Wagner...And hundreds of artists praised all over the world end up in his dustbin...Free to him...I do not despair that one day he will become normal and reasonable again...One should never despair of the human race, should one...Even if Cioran was very pessimistic on this point!...
But I love him so much...
In a woke world, Cioran can n ot be forgiven.
And this is the true evil of wokeness--its denial that redemption is possible. If that is the case, them absolutely everyone will not be forgiven; it's just a matter of time until some unforgivable offense is discovered. I know you and I reject that, Frank, but I'm not sure some of the voices here would agree.
Bob Harper
However a particular religion defines redemption, meaning the circumstances under which God will forgive, how are we dumb humans to know if a particular person has achieved that? Often, we can't. Did Cioran repent his sins? Did he atone for them? His saying sorry enough? I think I have to be open to the possibility that subsequent words and deeds demonstration a changed person that I can forgive. I do need some evidence, though.
Henk vT
2021-04-05 15:13:32 UTC
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Post by MELMOTH
Post by Henk vT
This is all true of young Cioran, before he left for France in the late 1930s.
Master Koren talks about Emil Cioran's *YOUTH*...Who hasn't made
mistakes in his youth?...We have obviously discussed this, and he tells
me that he deeply regretted this sad period of his youth...
Ferdinand Destouches, François-Marie Arouët, Robert Wagner and so many
others were IMMENSE artists, although anti-Semitic (and they, all their
lives)...*Personally I have always distinguished the Works from the
Men*...
I knew *Stéphane Hessel* , a great Resistance fighter, who died
recently...He was pro-German and extreme right-wing in his
youth...Before becoming the great Resistance fighter and Humanist that
we know...And examples like that exist in thousands...But all that
seems to go beyond Master Koren...
And to speak of Cioran as he does, one must at least have read some of
his works...One of the most beautiful French languages in all of
literature...But I doubt that he has ever opened a single one of his
works...
Cioran...Arrau...Wagner...And hundreds of artists praised all over the
world end up in his dustbin...Free to him...I do not despair that one
day he will become normal and reasonable again...One should never
despair of the human race, should one...Even if Cioran was very
pessimistic on this point!...
But I love him so much...
Isn't that too much of a good thing? DK is a popular member of this group. But loving him? What about his Manichean tendencies ...

Henk
Ricardo Jimenez
2021-04-05 15:53:18 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
DK is a popular member of this group. But loving him? What about his Manichean tendencies ...
I have been very satisfied with trying what DK says is Good. There is
no need to pay attention to his pronouncements on Evil.
Dan Koren
2021-04-05 20:26:43 UTC
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Post by MELMOTH
Post by Henk vT
This is all true of young Cioran, before he left for France in the late 1930s.
Master Koren talks about Emil Cioran's *YOUTH*...
Cioran was born in 1911. He wasn't exactly a "youth" when he
preached Romania should get rid of all the non-Romanian
Ethnic trash -- which included Jews, Roma, Hungarians,
Germans, Greek and Turks.
Post by MELMOTH
Who hasn't made mistakes in his youth?...
Not all "mistakes" are equivalent, especially not the kind
of "mistakes" led to people being killed -- however indirectly.
Post by MELMOTH
We have obviously discussed this,
"We" as in you and him, or "we" as in some bunch of people?
Post by MELMOTH
and he tells me that he deeply regretted this sad period
of ​his youth...
"We" would like to see a notarized affidavit.
Post by MELMOTH
Ferdinand Destouches, François-Marie Arouët, Robert
Wagner and so many others were IMMENSE artists,
"IMMENSE" relative to the size of France?

" although anti-Semitic (and they, all their lives)...

Just a small matter, isn't it? Never mind 6M people were
killed as a result.
Post by MELMOTH
*Personally I have always distinguished the Works from
the Men*...
That is your choice, and a rather naive one. Curiously, the
"great artists" you worship did not follow the same logic
when it came to Jews.
Post by MELMOTH
I knew *Stéphane Hessel* , a great Resistance fighter, who
died recently...He was pro-German and extreme right-wing
in his youth...Before becoming the great Resistance fighter
and Humanist that we know...
Can you show any evidence the same was true of Cioran?
Did he write a single sentence to show his remorse and
apologize to the Jewish people? I'd love to see it.
Post by MELMOTH
And examples like that exist in thousands...
In your mind perhaps. I have met plenty of antisemites in
my life. I never met one who recanted.
Post by MELMOTH
But all that seems to go beyond Master Koren...
And to speak of Cioran as he does, one must at least
have read some of his works...
Take this: I have read ALL of Cioran's published works.
You do not seem to be aware of the fact I am fluent
in Romanian and I read French without a dictionary.

During the 1960s Cioran (as well as Mircea Eliade) was
very popular with the high school crowd in Romania.
Post by MELMOTH
One of the most beautiful French languages in all of
literature.
What does it say about the French if the most beautiful
French literature was written by Romanians like Cioran,
Eliade, Ionescu, Tzara and Fondane?
Post by MELMOTH
But I doubt that he has ever opened a single one of his
works... Cioran...Arrau...Wagner.
I obviously have. My dad took me to the opera to hear
Meistersiger when I was 4. I heard Arrau live more than
once. I read Cioran's works. I read most of the French
and German philosophers. All the Romanian literature.

I suffered big swaths of French literature from Villon to
Perec -- oh how I hated Balzac! Read L'Express, Le Monde,
Le Figaro, even Paris Match and Le Canard Enchaîné for
many years.
Post by MELMOTH
And hundreds of artists praised all over the world end
up in his dustbin...
A chacun sa poubelle.

dk
Néstor Castiglione
2021-04-06 02:59:27 UTC
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Post by Chris J.
And finally, the MUST of the MUST : *Richter* / *Borodin* (Melodiya
1983)...There, you should be happy...It seems to me that these are very
rare artists who seem to suit you...Underline like nobody else the
violence, the bitterness and the despair of this masterpiece...
Dmitri Shostakovich / Beethoven Quartet (rec. 1950).
Chris
There's another recording with "Chosta" at the piano, also with the Beethovens. That one was from 1941 and was once available on a now long OOP Multisonic CD. It was slower, cleaner, and more controlled than the often manic 1950 recording. Hard for me to say which I prefer. As for Richter, there's also an alternate recording with him and the Borodins. That one was on Intaglio and, again, hasn't been reissued since; also more controlled and balanced than the later recording.

Disagree about Hamelin, a pianist whose work I often admire, but generally don't like. He made a surprisingly effective recording of the Piano Quintet; actually, it was a refreshing take on a composer whose works are lately rendered so heavily and exaggerated. It sort of reminded me of the wonderful old Victor Aller recording with the Hollywood String Quartet. Argerich, however is nothing but heavy and exaggerated, which is as expected. (I don't think I've ever liked any of her discography aside from her early and for decades unreleased recital of Chopin for EMI.) I also don't think her musical temperament is a good fit for Shostakovich. Not that it matters, anyway. As with almost everything she plays, the music is merely a frame to display her virtuosity.
Chris J.
2021-04-07 12:25:53 UTC
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Post by Néstor Castiglione
Post by Chris J.
Dmitri Shostakovich / Beethoven Quartet (rec. 1950).
There's another recording with "Chosta" at the piano, also with the
Beethovens. That one was from 1941 and was once available on a now long
OOP Multisonic CD.
November 1940 perhaps?

It can still be downloaded.
Post by Néstor Castiglione
It was slower, cleaner, and more controlled than the
often manic 1950 recording. Hard for me to say which I prefer.
As for
Richter, there's also an alternate recording with him and the Borodins.
That one was on Intaglio and, again, hasn't been reissued since; also
more controlled and balanced than the later recording.
This one?

https://musicbrainz.org/release/63918ce9-002a-4d38-9e56-2223fcba04a5


Chris

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