Discussion:
Sibelius Seventh symphony/Ormandy
(too old to reply)
Lawrence Chalmers
2018-08-15 20:28:13 UTC
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Is Ormandy the only one to use the brass in the last two notes of the work?
And did Sibelius indicate/sanction this use?
Kerrison
2018-08-15 22:23:08 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Chalmers
Is Ormandy the only one to use the brass in the last two notes of the work?
And did Sibelius indicate/sanction this use?
Ordmandy and the PhO are on You Tube in this work, as are loads of other recordings. Here is one 'comment' under the video: "The ending with the trumpet doubling the violins, a vile practice that began with Koussevitzky, and the crescendo in the timpani that Sibelius never wrote in the final bar, tells you everything you need to know about Ormandy's take on this great work."

Other comments damn the performance altogether while others think it is just great. I thought the ending pretty effective, in much the same way that Toscanini's addition of half-a-dozen tam-tam crashes to the end of the Tchaikovsky 'Manfred' Symphony's first movement are pretty effective too! ...



Here is Bernstein without the Koussevitzky ending ...



And here is Beecham with it ...



Lots more on You Tube if you wanna check them out ... Rattle, Karajan, Salonen, Mravinsky, Berglund, Szell, Maazel, etc. etc.
Bozo
2018-08-16 00:27:04 UTC
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To the best of my ear , Sixten Ehrling with the Stockholm , 50's recording ( my only 7th ) uses brass next to last note, but not on the last.
Lawrence Chalmers
2018-08-16 02:33:43 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Chalmers
Is Ormandy the only one to use the brass in the last two notes of the work?
And did Sibelius indicate/sanction this use?
I checked the remake for RCA by Ormandy and he does not use the brass.
Kerrison
2018-08-16 11:36:28 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Chalmers
Post by Lawrence Chalmers
Is Ormandy the only one to use the brass in the last two notes of the work?
And did Sibelius indicate/sanction this use?
I checked the remake for RCA by Ormandy and he does not use the brass.
Ormandy played it in Holland in 1969 with Concertgebouw Orchestra and he sticks with the trumpet-and-drum additions at the end even more forcefully than with the Philadelphians in his 1960 Sony recording ...



Somewhat surprisingly, Sir Adrian Boult also adopts the same idea in a live performance with the Royal Philharmonic. However, since he was chief conductor of the BBC Symphony at the time of Koussevitzky's own recording with it, maybe he thought the change worth retaining ...



However, Stokowski and the All-American Youth Orchestra, in their 1940 US Columbia recording on 'Guild,' do not adopt the Koussevitzky amendment!
Russ (not Martha)
2018-08-18 17:16:52 UTC
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Post by Kerrison
Ormandy played it in Holland in 1969 with Concertgebouw Orchestra and he sticks with the trumpet-and-drum additions at the end even more forcefully than with the Philadelphians in his 1960 Sony recording ...
http://youtu.be/xdRgDz-3fGc
It doesn't particularly bother me that Ormandy gooses the orchestration a bit at the very end of the work.

What I really don't like are the 'scoops' in the cellos & basses he inserts at 12:02-12:04 and 12:16-12:18 in the Concertgebouw performance, and the same at 13:18-13:20 and 13:36-13:38 in the Philadelphia recording on Sony. I have not heard the remake for RCA.

Russ (not Martha)
wanwan
2018-08-21 00:23:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerrison
Post by Lawrence Chalmers
Post by Lawrence Chalmers
Is Ormandy the only one to use the brass in the last two notes of the work?
And did Sibelius indicate/sanction this use?
I checked the remake for RCA by Ormandy and he does not use the brass.
Ormandy played it in Holland in 1969 with Concertgebouw Orchestra and he sticks with the trumpet-and-drum additions at the end even more forcefully than with the Philadelphians in his 1960 Sony recording ...
http://youtu.be/xdRgDz-3fGc
Somewhat surprisingly, Sir Adrian Boult also adopts the same idea in a live performance with the Royal Philharmonic. However, since he was chief conductor of the BBC Symphony at the time of Koussevitzky's own recording with it, maybe he thought the change worth retaining ...
http://youtu.be/C97YVjUKudc
However, Stokowski and the All-American Youth Orchestra, in their 1940 US Columbia recording on 'Guild,' do not adopt the Koussevitzky amendment!
After the '69 incident regarding the Sibelius 7th, Ormandy vowed never to return to conduct the Concertgebouw. Sure enough he never returned after the concerts he had scheduled the week after.

Eric
Frank Berger
2018-08-21 01:56:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by wanwan
Post by Kerrison
Post by Lawrence Chalmers
Post by Lawrence Chalmers
Is Ormandy the only one to use the brass in the last two notes of the work?
And did Sibelius indicate/sanction this use?
I checked the remake for RCA by Ormandy and he does not use the brass.
Ormandy played it in Holland in 1969 with Concertgebouw Orchestra and he sticks with the trumpet-and-drum additions at the end even more forcefully than with the Philadelphians in his 1960 Sony recording ...
http://youtu.be/xdRgDz-3fGc
Somewhat surprisingly, Sir Adrian Boult also adopts the same idea in a live performance with the Royal Philharmonic. However, since he was chief conductor of the BBC Symphony at the time of Koussevitzky's own recording with it, maybe he thought the change worth retaining ...
http://youtu.be/C97YVjUKudc
However, Stokowski and the All-American Youth Orchestra, in their 1940 US Columbia recording on 'Guild,' do not adopt the Koussevitzky amendment!
After the '69 incident regarding the Sibelius 7th, Ormandy vowed never to return to conduct the Concertgebouw. Sure enough he never returned after the concerts he had scheduled the week after.
Eric
Incident?
wanwan
2018-08-22 04:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by wanwan
Post by Kerrison
Post by Lawrence Chalmers
Post by Lawrence Chalmers
Is Ormandy the only one to use the brass in the last two notes of the work?
And did Sibelius indicate/sanction this use?
I checked the remake for RCA by Ormandy and he does not use the brass.
Ormandy played it in Holland in 1969 with Concertgebouw Orchestra and he sticks with the trumpet-and-drum additions at the end even more forcefully than with the Philadelphians in his 1960 Sony recording ...
http://youtu.be/xdRgDz-3fGc
Somewhat surprisingly, Sir Adrian Boult also adopts the same idea in a live performance with the Royal Philharmonic. However, since he was chief conductor of the BBC Symphony at the time of Koussevitzky's own recording with it, maybe he thought the change worth retaining ...
http://youtu.be/C97YVjUKudc
However, Stokowski and the All-American Youth Orchestra, in their 1940 US Columbia recording on 'Guild,' do not adopt the Koussevitzky amendment!
After the '69 incident regarding the Sibelius 7th, Ormandy vowed never to return to conduct the Concertgebouw. Sure enough he never returned after the concerts he had scheduled the week after.
Eric
Incident?
Trombone soloist basically disregarded Ormandy's instructions on how to play the solos. Ormandy got pissed.

Eric
Frank Berger
2018-08-22 12:22:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by wanwan
Post by Frank Berger
Post by wanwan
Post by Kerrison
Post by Lawrence Chalmers
Post by Lawrence Chalmers
Is Ormandy the only one to use the brass in the last two notes of the work?
And did Sibelius indicate/sanction this use?
I checked the remake for RCA by Ormandy and he does not use the brass.
Ormandy played it in Holland in 1969 with Concertgebouw Orchestra and he sticks with the trumpet-and-drum additions at the end even more forcefully than with the Philadelphians in his 1960 Sony recording ...
http://youtu.be/xdRgDz-3fGc
Somewhat surprisingly, Sir Adrian Boult also adopts the same idea in a live performance with the Royal Philharmonic. However, since he was chief conductor of the BBC Symphony at the time of Koussevitzky's own recording with it, maybe he thought the change worth retaining ...
http://youtu.be/C97YVjUKudc
However, Stokowski and the All-American Youth Orchestra, in their 1940 US Columbia recording on 'Guild,' do not adopt the Koussevitzky amendment!
After the '69 incident regarding the Sibelius 7th, Ormandy vowed never to return to conduct the Concertgebouw. Sure enough he never returned after the concerts he had scheduled the week after.
Eric
Incident?
Trombone soloist basically disregarded Ormandy's instructions on how to play the solos. Ormandy got pissed.
Eric
Is here a reference for that? I couldn't find anything.
Herman
2018-08-22 15:53:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by wanwan
Trombone soloist basically disregarded Ormandy's instructions on how to play the solos. Ormandy got pissed.
Eric
attaboy!
Randy Lane
2018-08-22 17:46:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by wanwan
Post by Frank Berger
Post by wanwan
Post by Kerrison
Post by Lawrence Chalmers
Post by Lawrence Chalmers
Is Ormandy the only one to use the brass in the last two notes of the work?
And did Sibelius indicate/sanction this use?
I checked the remake for RCA by Ormandy and he does not use the brass.
Ormandy played it in Holland in 1969 with Concertgebouw Orchestra and he sticks with the trumpet-and-drum additions at the end even more forcefully than with the Philadelphians in his 1960 Sony recording ...
http://youtu.be/xdRgDz-3fGc
Somewhat surprisingly, Sir Adrian Boult also adopts the same idea in a live performance with the Royal Philharmonic. However, since he was chief conductor of the BBC Symphony at the time of Koussevitzky's own recording with it, maybe he thought the change worth retaining ...
http://youtu.be/C97YVjUKudc
However, Stokowski and the All-American Youth Orchestra, in their 1940 US Columbia recording on 'Guild,' do not adopt the Koussevitzky amendment!
After the '69 incident regarding the Sibelius 7th, Ormandy vowed never to return to conduct the Concertgebouw. Sure enough he never returned after the concerts he had scheduled the week after.
Eric
Incident?
Trombone soloist basically disregarded Ormandy's instructions on how to play the solos. Ormandy got pissed.
Eric
I wonder if the trombonist would have done the same were George Szell the conductor, know what we've heard about Szell's authoritarian like ways.
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