Discussion:
"I am not a musician and do not have perfect pitch"
(too old to reply)
Enzoadorato
2005-04-07 09:23:59 UTC
Permalink
"I haven't attended a performance in over fifteen years."

Quoting the so-called "great" and "greatly respected" Mike Richter.

http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0504A&L=OPERA-L&P=R12404&I=-3

http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0309B&L=opera-l&P=R13279&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=1
REG
2005-04-07 11:18:41 UTC
Permalink
Based on this proof, seems as if we are going to have to reevaluate our
position on Mr. Richter. I cannot believe that someone who is neither
musician nor pitch-perfect is taken so seriously by some. But,
personally, I can live with him being neither musician nor
pitch-perfect. What I CAN'T live with is him not having attended
performances in over 15 years and then opining around as if he had any
authority whatsoever. Phooey. Bye bye Richter.

REG
Post by Enzoadorato
"I haven't attended a performance in over fifteen years."
Quoting the so-called "great" and "greatly respected" Mike Richter.
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0504A&L=OPERA-L&P=R12404&I=-3
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0309B&L=opera-l&P=R13279&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=1
J***@aol.com
2005-04-07 15:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by REG
What I CAN'T live with is him not having attended
performances in over 15 years and then opining around as if he had any
authority whatsoever.
similar, huh, to the chuckles the opera clown pontificating about
singers as if he knows something about singing, but who didn't leave
his house for 10 years due to his panic attacks (lest he run into me!),
who can't read music, probably has no rhythm, hasn't a clue about music
theory, doesn't have a clue about technique or breathing.....yep...a
true authority is in our midst. maybe he can tells us for the
thousandth time about his being in the old met the night warren died
(which he wasn't). jag
Dan Tritter
2005-04-07 16:32:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by J***@aol.com
Post by REG
What I CAN'T live with is him not having attended
performances in over 15 years and then opining around as if he had
any
Post by REG
authority whatsoever.
similar, huh, to the chuckles the opera clown pontificating about
singers as if he knows something about singing, but who didn't leave
his house for 10 years due to his panic attacks (lest he run into me!),
who can't read music, probably has no rhythm, hasn't a clue about music
theory, doesn't have a clue about technique or breathing.....yep...a
true authority is in our midst. maybe he can tells us for the
thousandth time about his being in the old met the night warren died
(which he wasn't). jag
panic attacks (lest he run into me!)

that's just protecting his digestive system, for fear of encountering
one of the most nauseating entities known to contemporary man.
Enzoadorato
2005-04-07 19:16:35 UTC
Permalink
Who are these people????Poor Enzo..he gets "credit" for so much
crap....oh well....more crazies here..ch
a***@aol.com
2005-04-07 20:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Who is Mike Richter?

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Stephen Worth
2005-04-07 22:31:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
Who is Mike Richter?
The producer of the Audio Encyclopedia, a mammoth and extremely
valuable resource for opera fans on CD-ROM.

http://www.mrichter.com/ae/ae.htm

See ya
Steve
--
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
VIP RECORDS: Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD in great sound
20s Dance Bands - Swing - Opera - Classical - Vaudeville - Ragtime
FREE MP3s OF COMPLETE SONGS http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Richard Loeb
2005-04-07 22:41:20 UTC
Permalink
And a person who certainly doesn't have to answer to anyone, least of all
the participants here, many of whom owe him a debt of gratitude. Richard
Post by Stephen Worth
Post by a***@aol.com
Who is Mike Richter?
The producer of the Audio Encyclopedia, a mammoth and extremely
valuable resource for opera fans on CD-ROM.
http://www.mrichter.com/ae/ae.htm
See ya
Steve
--
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
VIP RECORDS: Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD in great sound
20s Dance Bands - Swing - Opera - Classical - Vaudeville - Ragtime
FREE MP3s OF COMPLETE SONGS http://www.vintageip.com/records/
a***@aol.com
2005-04-08 00:54:43 UTC
Permalink
I did not know who he was, that was all.

As one of the "articipants" ere, does he have any thoughts as to the
sticking of the timpanist in Salome (R. Strauss)?

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
a***@aol.com
2005-04-08 01:12:43 UTC
Permalink
PS: Or is he just listening to it and basking in the technique of
others?

Only a participant, of course.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
donpaolo
2005-04-09 02:43:28 UTC
Permalink
SECONDED!

DonPaolo
Post by Richard Loeb
And a person who certainly doesn't have to answer to anyone, least of all
the participants here, many of whom owe him a debt of gratitude. Richard
Post by Stephen Worth
Post by a***@aol.com
Who is Mike Richter?
The producer of the Audio Encyclopedia, a mammoth and extremely
valuable resource for opera fans on CD-ROM.
http://www.mrichter.com/ae/ae.htm
See ya
Steve
--
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
VIP RECORDS: Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD in great sound
20s Dance Bands - Swing - Opera - Classical - Vaudeville - Ragtime
FREE MP3s OF COMPLETE SONGS http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
2005-04-08 21:18:57 UTC
Permalink
Thirded!
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
SECONDED!
DonPaolo
Post by Richard Loeb
And a person who certainly doesn't have to answer to anyone, least of all
the participants here, many of whom owe him a debt of gratitude.
Richard
Post by Stephen Worth
Post by a***@aol.com
Who is Mike Richter?
The producer of the Audio Encyclopedia, a mammoth and extremely
valuable resource for opera fans on CD-ROM.
http://www.mrichter.com/ae/ae.htm
See ya
Steve
--
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
VIP RECORDS: Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD in great sound
20s Dance Bands - Swing - Opera - Classical - Vaudeville - Ragtime
FREE MP3s OF COMPLETE SONGS http://www.vintageip.com/records/
REG
2005-04-08 23:37:05 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like you to wait until someone else spoke. You gotta
get rid of this shyness. What are you going to do when Hillary runs??

REG Carnegie
Post by donpaolo
SECONDED!
DonPaolo
Post by Richard Loeb
And a person who certainly doesn't have to answer to anyone, least of all
the participants here, many of whom owe him a debt of gratitude.
Richard
Post by donpaolo
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by Stephen Worth
Post by a***@aol.com
Who is Mike Richter?
The producer of the Audio Encyclopedia, a mammoth and extremely
valuable resource for opera fans on CD-ROM.
http://www.mrichter.com/ae/ae.htm
See ya
Steve
--
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
VIP RECORDS: Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD in great sound
20s Dance Bands - Swing - Opera - Classical - Vaudeville - Ragtime
FREE MP3s OF COMPLETE SONGS http://www.vintageip.com/records/
a***@comcast.net
2005-04-09 00:31:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by REG
get rid of this shyness. What are you going to do when Hillary runs??
REG Carnegie
I'm gonna vote early . . . . and often.
Æ S
donpaolo
2005-04-09 22:06:55 UTC
Permalink
Take the whold busload witcha - directly to a federal pen...

DonP.
Post by a***@comcast.net
Post by REG
get rid of this shyness. What are you going to do when Hillary runs??
REG Carnegie
I'm gonna vote early . . . . and often.
Æ S
Matthew Fields
2005-04-09 02:12:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by REG
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like you to wait until someone else spoke. You gotta
get rid of this shyness. What are you going to do when Hillary runs??
What office is Hillary Hahn running for?
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Peter T. Daniels
2005-04-09 03:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by REG
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like you to wait until someone else spoke. You gotta
get rid of this shyness. What are you going to do when Hillary runs??
What office is Hillary Hahn running for?
Inability to spell does have its advantages.

Ms. Hahn has only one l. Mrs. Clinton has three.
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
donpaolo
2005-04-09 22:05:50 UTC
Permalink
LOL - I, too, will run - the opposite direction...as fast as my legs will
carry me.

DonP.
Post by REG
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like you to wait until someone else spoke. You gotta
get rid of this shyness. What are you going to do when Hillary runs??
REG Carnegie
Post by donpaolo
SECONDED!
DonPaolo
Post by Richard Loeb
And a person who certainly doesn't have to answer to anyone, least of
all
Post by donpaolo
Post by Richard Loeb
the participants here, many of whom owe him a debt of gratitude.
Richard
Post by donpaolo
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by Stephen Worth
Post by a***@aol.com
Who is Mike Richter?
The producer of the Audio Encyclopedia, a mammoth and extremely
valuable resource for opera fans on CD-ROM.
http://www.mrichter.com/ae/ae.htm
See ya
Steve
--
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
VIP RECORDS: Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD in great sound
20s Dance Bands - Swing - Opera - Classical - Vaudeville - Ragtime
FREE MP3s OF COMPLETE SONGS http://www.vintageip.com/records/
a***@comcast.net
2005-04-09 19:42:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by donpaolo
LOL - I, too, will run - the opposite direction...as fast as my legs will
carry me.
DonP.
You can run . . . . but'cha can't hide . . . . . .
Æ S
REG
2005-04-09 21:55:49 UTC
Permalink
Maybe she'll win if all the felons can vote.

REG, who would classify poor Martha Stewart as a martyr.
Post by a***@comcast.net
Post by donpaolo
LOL - I, too, will run - the opposite direction...as fast as my legs will
carry me.
DonP.
You can run . . . . but'cha can't hide . . . . . .
Æ S
donpaolo
2005-04-10 06:06:12 UTC
Permalink
Spoilsport - I'll disguise meself like Monica & make big $$$ outta my
obvious, transparent sluttery.

DonP.
Post by a***@comcast.net
Post by donpaolo
LOL - I, too, will run - the opposite direction...as fast as my legs will
carry me.
DonP.
You can run . . . . but'cha can't hide . . . . . .
Æ S
Larry Rinkel
2005-04-08 12:05:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Worth
Post by a***@aol.com
Who is Mike Richter?
The producer of the Audio Encyclopedia, a mammoth and extremely
valuable resource for opera fans on CD-ROM.
http://www.mrichter.com/ae/ae.htm
Clearly Peter G. Davis, the esteemed music critic for New York Magazine,
feels differently towards Mr. Richter than some here. The following is all
quotation:


"On Disc: The Audio Encyclopedia

By Peter G. Davis

Want Wagner's complete operas on one small CD-ROM for $10? Yes, that's
right, more than 40 hours of hard-to-find live performances, featuring
singers and conductors you won't hear anywhere else. But wait, there's more.
Another disc, for the same low price, offers all of Strauss's operas. Then
there's an anthology of French opera, mostly rarities recorded between the
early forties and the seventies, starring native artists still in touch with
a fading vocal tradition. Callas widows, rejoice-there's a disc that holds
all 46 hours of Maria Callas's 1971-72 master classes at Juilliard. There
are collections of golden-age voices from the Bolshoi; of British singers
born before 1900; and more, much more.


I've been addicted to Mike Richter's CD-ROMs for years, and the time seems
right to pass the word on. Each disc, playable on a PC or Mac, is assembled
by Richter, a retired engineer in California whose knowledge of opera and
singers rivals his technology expertise. These little discs constitute "The
Audio Encyclopedia," a modest title considering the riches they offer and
how thoroughly they provide access to the history of recorded singing. The
audio is compressed, but it's tolerable through desktop speakers and better
on earphones. It's not a profit-making enterprise; the $10-per-disc price
allows Richter to just clear his costs and postage. To read about "The Audio
Encyclopedia" and order discs, visit his Website at mrichter.com.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Related Links:
Also In This Issue: New York Magazine - February 7, 2005

From the February 7, 2005 issue of New York Magazine."


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Eric Grunin
2005-04-07 22:37:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
Who is Mike Richter?
A perfectly respectable member of this group. The attacks are from
trolls, and can be safely ignored.

Alas, it's basically safe to ignore *any* message crossposted to
rec.music.opera.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Josep Vilanova
2005-04-09 20:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Grunin
Post by a***@aol.com
Who is Mike Richter?
A perfectly respectable member of this group. The attacks are from
trolls, and can be safely ignored.
Alas, it's basically safe to ignore *any* message crossposted to
rec.music.opera.
I think both Alan Watkins and me got confused because we don't post to
rec.music.opera. Since so many messages are crossposted this is becoming a
sort of uni-group now.

josep
Josep Vilanova
2005-04-07 20:35:36 UTC
Permalink
On 7/4/05 9:07 pm, in article
Post by a***@aol.com
Who is Mike Richter?
I've been wondering the same. I was starting to think I was the only one who
didn't have a clue about that person


j
La Donna Mobile
2005-04-08 10:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Josep Vilanova
On 7/4/05 9:07 pm, in article
Post by a***@aol.com
Who is Mike Richter?
I've been wondering the same. I was starting to think I was the only one who
didn't have a clue about that person
j
Basic context, StuderTroll is banned from Trolling on Opera-L, so has to
use rmo as a conduit to commenting on Opera-L posts - there is some
considerable overlap of membership - and x-posts to rmc, rmcr, rmcp,
rmcc, all of which have a tiny, if that, membership overlap with
Opera-L. It strikes me as being a classic StuderTroll tactic to try and
get various people arguing amongst themselves, or at the very least,
confused. Unfortunately - for StuderTroll - I suspect that the majority
of rmX readers do not sit at their computers boiling over with emotional
outrage, most of the time. So any pleasure that StuderTroll may derive
from thinking that people are getting upset at the mischief he tries to
cause would surely be diminished if only he knew that most of us are
rational and detached, and view the StuderTroll with a mix of pity and
amusement - 'as in look at that idiot, mwoohaha' - which is known on rmo
as laughing and pointing derisively...

Get ready for a string of posts from the fake 'La Donna Mobile'
adulating Ms Studer - the 'real' one posts via a BTInternet server, when
it works...And remember, Placido rules!
--
http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog/
http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog/
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
2005-04-08 17:02:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Josep Vilanova
On 7/4/05 9:07 pm, in article
Post by a***@aol.com
Who is Mike Richter?
I've been wondering the same. I was starting to think I was the only one who
didn't have a clue about that person
Evidently he's not as well-known to the newcomers here as he
is to the long-term members. He doesn't post here as often
as he used to (can you blame him?) but he has made many
valuable contributions here, and maintains a web-site that
is a great reference tool for anyone REALLY interested in
classical music.
Richard Loeb
2005-04-08 17:51:32 UTC
Permalink
Here here!!!!! Richard
Post by Josep Vilanova
On 7/4/05 9:07 pm, in article
Post by a***@aol.com
Who is Mike Richter?
I've been wondering the same. I was starting to think I was the only one who
didn't have a clue about that person
Evidently he's not as well-known to the newcomers here as he is to the
long-term members. He doesn't post here as often as he used to (can you
blame him?) but he has made many valuable contributions here, and
maintains a web-site that is a great reference tool for anyone REALLY
interested in classical music.
Chris Muller
2005-04-08 23:01:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
Who is Mike Richter?
Someone who is so unwise as to try to take part in "discussions" on
opera in an ayslum called rec.music.opera and on the technicalities of
burning music cdrs, making mp3 etc. in another newsgroup. Like many
people whose writing usually makes sense, he has made enemies among
the ingnorant, the untalented and the destructive.

Chris
Enzoadorato
2005-04-10 01:20:59 UTC
Permalink
an ayslum called rec.music.opera

That is the best description of this place....yes,I do "join in' with
the flames..but if you read...you see i post many articles of
opera.,unlike them..all they do is flame...... ..but I have my
fun...and they get madder and madder..and lie like mad...
They cannot stand my opera experience,my singing,my teaching,my life,
my everything...and I sit back and laugh...ch

Mike Richter
2005-04-07 20:16:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Enzoadorato
"I haven't attended a performance in over fifteen years."
Quoting the so-called "great" and "greatly respected" Mike Richter.
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0504A&L=OPERA-L&P=R12404&I=-3
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0309B&L=opera-l&P=R13279&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=1
Not that it should be relevant, but I have been disabled by heart
disease for more than fifteen years. My last attempt at attending a
performance ended about an hour after it began; I recovered in three days.

I've never claimed to be a "musician" - however defined - or to have
perfect pitch. I rarely comment on current artists because I have not
heard them and know that only performance on stage counts (and even then
only when not electronically enhanced). I do comment on recordings which
I know, and I do try to expand my own and others' appreciation through
my WWW site and the CD-ROMs I produce. For a non-musician without
perfect pitch, I appear to be succeeding; with your presumed abilities
in those areas, are you?

I don't know who calls me either "great" or "highly respected" - and
frankly don't care. I prefer to write about what I know and to document
my lack of expertise when it's appropriate on opera-l and elsewhere. In
fact, there's a sort of autobiography at my WWW site where you may learn
more than you want to know about me if you're so inclined.

Mike
--
***@cpl.net
http://www.mrichter.com/
d***@aol.com
2005-04-07 21:33:59 UTC
Permalink
For the record, "perfect pitch" (the ability to remember any given
pitch or frequency exactly) is not remotely a prerequisite for being a
musician. Good "relative pitch" (the ability to perceive and reproduce
the relationships between the pitches in music) is. The lack of
perfect pitch disqualifies nobody from anything.

-david gable
Raymond Hall
2005-04-07 23:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
For the record, "perfect pitch" (the ability to remember any given
pitch or frequency exactly) is not remotely a prerequisite for being a
musician. Good "relative pitch" (the ability to perceive and reproduce
the relationships between the pitches in music) is. The lack of
perfect pitch disqualifies nobody from anything.
I had always thought that possessing perfect pitch was the ownership of a
small minority, and a bit of a curse. Relative pitch is a "must have", and
all good musicians must possess it.

Ray H
Taree
John W. Kennedy
2005-04-07 23:41:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
For the record, "perfect pitch" (the ability to remember any given
pitch or frequency exactly) is not remotely a prerequisite for being a
musician. Good "relative pitch" (the ability to perceive and reproduce
the relationships between the pitches in music) is. The lack of
perfect pitch disqualifies nobody from anything.
Except maybe tympani.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The pathetic hope that the White House will turn a Caligula into a
Marcus Aurelius is as naïve as the fear that ultimate power inevitably
corrupts."
-- James D. Barber (1930-2004)
Sam
2005-04-08 02:50:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
For the record, "perfect pitch" (the ability to remember any given
pitch or frequency exactly) is not remotely a prerequisite for being a
musician. Good "relative pitch" (the ability to perceive and reproduce
the relationships between the pitches in music) is. The lack of
perfect pitch disqualifies nobody from anything.
-david gable
Not every musician agrees with you. I remember reading an interview
with Lorin Maazel, when he was director of the Cleveland Orchestra.
Here is an almost direct quote of what he said when asked what are the
qualifications for getting a job as an assistant conductor.

*First of all, he must have absolute pitch. You can't conduct modern
music without absolute pitch. .....*
Matthew Fields
2005-04-08 13:59:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam
Post by d***@aol.com
For the record, "perfect pitch" (the ability to remember any given
pitch or frequency exactly) is not remotely a prerequisite for being a
musician. Good "relative pitch" (the ability to perceive and reproduce
the relationships between the pitches in music) is. The lack of
perfect pitch disqualifies nobody from anything.
-david gable
Not every musician agrees with you. I remember reading an interview
with Lorin Maazel, when he was director of the Cleveland Orchestra.
Here is an almost direct quote of what he said when asked what are the
qualifications for getting a job as an assistant conductor.
*First of all, he must have absolute pitch. You can't conduct modern
music without absolute pitch. .....*
Modern music almost always gets conducted by people without absolute pitch,
actually.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Dan Tritter
2005-04-08 14:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by Sam
Post by d***@aol.com
For the record, "perfect pitch" (the ability to remember any given
pitch or frequency exactly) is not remotely a prerequisite for being a
musician. Good "relative pitch" (the ability to perceive and reproduce
the relationships between the pitches in music) is. The lack of
perfect pitch disqualifies nobody from anything.
-david gable
Not every musician agrees with you. I remember reading an interview
with Lorin Maazel, when he was director of the Cleveland Orchestra.
Here is an almost direct quote of what he said when asked what are the
qualifications for getting a job as an assistant conductor.
*First of all, he must have absolute pitch. You can't conduct modern
music without absolute pitch. .....*
Modern music almost always gets conducted by people without absolute pitch,
actually.
perfect pitch is merely an aural memory, which enables a trained
musician to identify a key without aid of an instrument. in the case of
many, if not most singers, it is a performance obstacle, when the
accompanying instrument[s] or another singer is in the wrong pitch/key,
or simply flat or sharp in execution. who suffers? mostly, the audience,
which can opnly discern that something is radically wrong in the
performance. perfect pitch is no aid to any but, for a string player
whose ears so attuned that he/she can tell the difference [most of us
can't] between a c-sharp and a d-flat. the temporary trend of
mid-20th-century atonalist [and microtonalist] composition played an
aural trick on those lazy audiences, who were, frankly, uninterested in
such technical matters.

and then there is the historic trend from mozart's era until today,
where the a=426 standard has risen gradually to the more-or-less
standard a=440 [sometimes higher, some places] of today. mozart's
stratospheric high notes written for his sister-in-law, aloysia weber
lange, seem not so high today to present-day queens of the night and
constanzes and concert aria performers who are now commanded to go about
a half-tone higher than that long departed vocal model of w.a. mozart.
some singers have had the temerity to complain, but the autocrats of the
baton smirk and suggest that the new pitch emphasizes the brilliance of
their string sections. the i.s.p.c.a.s. (international society for the
prevention of cruelty to abused singers) seems of little effectiveness
in reversing the abuse.
John Gavin
2005-04-08 19:28:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Tritter
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by Sam
Post by d***@aol.com
For the record, "perfect pitch" (the ability to remember any given
pitch or frequency exactly) is not remotely a prerequisite for being a
musician. Good "relative pitch" (the ability to perceive and reproduce
the relationships between the pitches in music) is. The lack of
perfect pitch disqualifies nobody from anything.
-david gable
Not every musician agrees with you. I remember reading an interview
with Lorin Maazel, when he was director of the Cleveland Orchestra.
Here is an almost direct quote of what he said when asked what are the
qualifications for getting a job as an assistant conductor.
*First of all, he must have absolute pitch. You can't conduct modern
music without absolute pitch. .....*
Modern music almost always gets conducted by people without absolute pitch,
actually.
perfect pitch is merely an aural memory, which enables a trained
musician to identify a key without aid of an instrument. in the case of
many, if not most singers, it is a performance obstacle, when the
accompanying instrument[s] or another singer is in the wrong pitch/key,
or simply flat or sharp in execution. who suffers? mostly, the audience,
which can opnly discern that something is radically wrong in the
performance. perfect pitch is no aid to any but,
I've got to butt in here and say that this notion that absolute pitch
is more of a curse than a blessing is UTTER NONSENSE IMO. It is some
kind of bizarre denial. Absolute pitch is a huge boost in reinforcing
musical memory, in the ability to learn music quickly and efficiently.
Certainly, combined with a sharp sense of relative pitch it allows a
heightenend sensitivity to vertical and horizontal hearing (the
ability to quickly pick out the notes of a complicated harmony, and to
remember it).

If perfect pitch is such a drawback, then how come practically every
major pianist of the 20th century HAD IT? Richter, Gilels,
Rachmaninoff, Michelangeli, Larrocha, Hofmann, Argerich, Hamelin,
Hough....and these are only the ones I remember from their
biographies. I'm sure the list of conductors and other soloists are
equally comprehensive. This is not to say that those who don't possess
it can't be fine musicians, but the anti-absolute pitch argument
strikes me a some sort of subconscious denial.
Dan Tritter
2005-04-08 19:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Gavin
Post by Dan Tritter
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by Sam
Post by d***@aol.com
For the record, "perfect pitch" (the ability to remember any given
pitch or frequency exactly) is not remotely a prerequisite for being a
musician. Good "relative pitch" (the ability to perceive and reproduce
the relationships between the pitches in music) is. The lack of
perfect pitch disqualifies nobody from anything.
-david gable
Not every musician agrees with you. I remember reading an interview
with Lorin Maazel, when he was director of the Cleveland Orchestra.
Here is an almost direct quote of what he said when asked what are the
qualifications for getting a job as an assistant conductor.
*First of all, he must have absolute pitch. You can't conduct modern
music without absolute pitch. .....*
Modern music almost always gets conducted by people without absolute pitch,
actually.
perfect pitch is merely an aural memory, which enables a trained
musician to identify a key without aid of an instrument. in the case of
many, if not most singers, it is a performance obstacle, when the
accompanying instrument[s] or another singer is in the wrong pitch/key,
or simply flat or sharp in execution. who suffers? mostly, the audience,
which can opnly discern that something is radically wrong in the
performance. perfect pitch is no aid to any but,
I've got to butt in here and say that this notion that absolute pitch
is more of a curse than a blessing is UTTER NONSENSE IMO. It is some
kind of bizarre denial. Absolute pitch is a huge boost in reinforcing
musical memory, in the ability to learn music quickly and efficiently.
Certainly, combined with a sharp sense of relative pitch it allows a
heightenend sensitivity to vertical and horizontal hearing (the
ability to quickly pick out the notes of a complicated harmony, and to
remember it).
If perfect pitch is such a drawback, then how come practically every
major pianist of the 20th century HAD IT? Richter, Gilels,
Rachmaninoff, Michelangeli, Larrocha, Hofmann, Argerich, Hamelin,
Hough....and these are only the ones I remember from their
biographies. I'm sure the list of conductors and other soloists are
equally comprehensive. This is not to say that those who don't possess
it can't be fine musicians, but the anti-absolute pitch argument
strikes me a some sort of subconscious denial.
sounds like you didn't read my post. i referred specifically to singers,
not players of instruments. from there you've taken off in a direction
of your own choosing, but never said by me. don'tn get angry. just try
to improve your reading comprhension, before drawing on your
encyclopedia of pianists.
John Gavin
2005-04-09 03:22:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Tritter
Post by John Gavin
Post by John Gavin
I've got to butt in here and say that this notion that absolute pitch
is more of a curse than a blessing is UTTER NONSENSE IMO. It is some
kind of bizarre denial. Absolute pitch is a huge boost in reinforcing
musical memory, in the ability to learn music quickly and efficiently.
Certainly, combined with a sharp sense of relative pitch it allows a
heightenend sensitivity to vertical and horizontal hearing (the
ability to quickly pick out the notes of a complicated harmony, and to
remember it).
If perfect pitch is such a drawback, then how come practically every
major pianist of the 20th century HAD IT? Richter, Gilels,
Rachmaninoff, Michelangeli, Larrocha, Hofmann, Argerich, Hamelin,
Hough....and these are only the ones I remember from their
biographies. I'm sure the list of conductors and other soloists are
equally comprehensive. This is not to say that those who don't possess
it can't be fine musicians, but the anti-absolute pitch argument
strikes me a some sort of subconscious denial.
sounds like you didn't read my post. i referred specifically to singers,
not players of instruments.
This is what you wrote in your post:

"perfect pitch is no aid to any but, for a string player
whose ears so attuned that he/she can tell the difference [most of us
can't] between a c-sharp and a d-flat."

No aid to any but a string player ---any but a string player would
include pianists, organists, wind players etc.

from there you've taken off in a direction
Post by Dan Tritter
of your own choosing, but never said by me. don'tn get angry.
I'm not angry, but I'm challenging some old tired stereotypes about
perfect pitch.

Possessing absolute pitch doesn't automatically make a musician
inflexible unless they are rigid to begin with. Hearing notes that are
out-of-tune is no more painful for a person with absolute pitch sense
than anyone else. They just recognize it more precisely.

just try
Post by Dan Tritter
to improve your reading comprhension, before drawing on your
encyclopedia of pianists.
Clearly from the above, it's you who need to pay closer attention to
what you write in posts.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
2005-04-08 20:42:28 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Gavin: Of the two (2) singers I've personally known to have perfect
pitch...I can assure you it was an absolute curse!

Being an instrumentalist and hearing an instrument being off is bad
enough...but good in the sense that one can fix the instrument.

Being a singer and hearing either an instrument and/or another voice or
group of voices going off pitch is like having an insect in your ear...you
never really know if it's out of their. And you can't fix it short of
telling someone that their singing is off pitch. Not such good form for
operatic soloists...unless of course you're the conductor. And at THAT
point...legends are made.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by John Gavin
Post by Dan Tritter
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by Sam
Post by d***@aol.com
For the record, "perfect pitch" (the ability to remember any given
pitch or frequency exactly) is not remotely a prerequisite for being a
musician. Good "relative pitch" (the ability to perceive and reproduce
the relationships between the pitches in music) is. The lack of
perfect pitch disqualifies nobody from anything.
-david gable
Not every musician agrees with you. I remember reading an interview
with Lorin Maazel, when he was director of the Cleveland Orchestra.
Here is an almost direct quote of what he said when asked what are the
qualifications for getting a job as an assistant conductor.
*First of all, he must have absolute pitch. You can't conduct modern
music without absolute pitch. .....*
Modern music almost always gets conducted by people without absolute pitch,
actually.
perfect pitch is merely an aural memory, which enables a trained
musician to identify a key without aid of an instrument. in the case of
many, if not most singers, it is a performance obstacle, when the
accompanying instrument[s] or another singer is in the wrong pitch/key,
or simply flat or sharp in execution. who suffers? mostly, the audience,
which can opnly discern that something is radically wrong in the
performance. perfect pitch is no aid to any but,
I've got to butt in here and say that this notion that absolute pitch
is more of a curse than a blessing is UTTER NONSENSE IMO. It is some
kind of bizarre denial. Absolute pitch is a huge boost in reinforcing
musical memory, in the ability to learn music quickly and efficiently.
Certainly, combined with a sharp sense of relative pitch it allows a
heightenend sensitivity to vertical and horizontal hearing (the
ability to quickly pick out the notes of a complicated harmony, and to
remember it).
If perfect pitch is such a drawback, then how come practically every
major pianist of the 20th century HAD IT? Richter, Gilels,
Rachmaninoff, Michelangeli, Larrocha, Hofmann, Argerich, Hamelin,
Hough....and these are only the ones I remember from their
biographies. I'm sure the list of conductors and other soloists are
equally comprehensive. This is not to say that those who don't possess
it can't be fine musicians, but the anti-absolute pitch argument
strikes me a some sort of subconscious denial.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
2005-04-08 20:47:29 UTC
Permalink
To all posted NGs: I apologize...I let the multiple post thing slip by me
again. I'm just so NOT used to multiple posting that I automatically assume
that nobody else would be so rude or just plain stupid enough to do same.

With purpose...I'm multiple posting this apology. I'll try to be more
observant in the future.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Mr. Gavin: Of the two (2) singers I've personally known to have perfect
pitch...I can assure you it was an absolute curse!
Being an instrumentalist and hearing an instrument being off is bad
enough...but good in the sense that one can fix the instrument.
Being a singer and hearing either an instrument and/or another voice or
group of voices going off pitch is like having an insect in your ear...you
never really know if it's out of their. And you can't fix it short of
telling someone that their singing is off pitch. Not such good form for
operatic soloists...unless of course you're the conductor. And at THAT
point...legends are made.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by John Gavin
Post by Dan Tritter
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by Sam
Post by d***@aol.com
For the record, "perfect pitch" (the ability to remember any given
pitch or frequency exactly) is not remotely a prerequisite for being a
musician. Good "relative pitch" (the ability to perceive and reproduce
the relationships between the pitches in music) is. The lack of
perfect pitch disqualifies nobody from anything.
-david gable
Not every musician agrees with you. I remember reading an interview
with Lorin Maazel, when he was director of the Cleveland Orchestra.
Here is an almost direct quote of what he said when asked what are the
qualifications for getting a job as an assistant conductor.
*First of all, he must have absolute pitch. You can't conduct modern
music without absolute pitch. .....*
Modern music almost always gets conducted by people without absolute pitch,
actually.
perfect pitch is merely an aural memory, which enables a trained
musician to identify a key without aid of an instrument. in the case of
many, if not most singers, it is a performance obstacle, when the
accompanying instrument[s] or another singer is in the wrong pitch/key,
or simply flat or sharp in execution. who suffers? mostly, the audience,
which can opnly discern that something is radically wrong in the
performance. perfect pitch is no aid to any but,
I've got to butt in here and say that this notion that absolute pitch
is more of a curse than a blessing is UTTER NONSENSE IMO. It is some
kind of bizarre denial. Absolute pitch is a huge boost in reinforcing
musical memory, in the ability to learn music quickly and efficiently.
Certainly, combined with a sharp sense of relative pitch it allows a
heightenend sensitivity to vertical and horizontal hearing (the
ability to quickly pick out the notes of a complicated harmony, and to
remember it).
If perfect pitch is such a drawback, then how come practically every
major pianist of the 20th century HAD IT? Richter, Gilels,
Rachmaninoff, Michelangeli, Larrocha, Hofmann, Argerich, Hamelin,
Hough....and these are only the ones I remember from their
biographies. I'm sure the list of conductors and other soloists are
equally comprehensive. This is not to say that those who don't possess
it can't be fine musicians, but the anti-absolute pitch argument
strikes me a some sort of subconscious denial.
Peter T. Daniels
2005-04-08 21:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Gavin
If perfect pitch is such a drawback, then how come practically every
major pianist of the 20th century HAD IT? Richter, Gilels,
Rachmaninoff, Michelangeli, Larrocha, Hofmann, Argerich, Hamelin,
Hough....and these are only the ones I remember from their
biographies. I'm sure the list of conductors and other soloists are
equally comprehensive. This is not to say that those who don't possess
it can't be fine musicians, but the anti-absolute pitch argument
strikes me a some sort of subconscious denial.
Maybe people with perfect pitch go into piano-playing because with that
instrument, there's nothing they can do about the pitch of their
instrument and all the other instruments have to tune to it.

I can't see how perfect pitch would provide a pianist with any advantage
whatsoever.
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
a***@att.net
2005-04-08 22:54:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Maybe people with perfect pitch go into piano-playing because with that
instrument, there's nothing they can do about the pitch of their
instrument and all the other instruments have to tune to it.
that is absolute nonsense......
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I can't see how perfect pitch would provide a pianist with any
advantage
Post by Peter T. Daniels
whatsoever.
--
I am not a professional musician though I play both the bassoon and
piano well. My absolute pitch helps me hear very clearly all the
voices of piano music, helps me hear and voice chords more accurately,
tells me when a piano is out of tune or if the tempermant is not
accurate, etc. on the the bassoon it helps me play the instrument in
tune since no note on the bassoon is in perfect tune.
It is a wonderful musical gift.....

Those with pp can also testify to the comments above......

AB
Matthew Fields
2005-04-08 23:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@att.net
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Maybe people with perfect pitch go into piano-playing because with
that
Post by Peter T. Daniels
instrument, there's nothing they can do about the pitch of their
instrument and all the other instruments have to tune to it.
that is absolute nonsense......
No, it's perfectly sensible. SHall I spell it out for you
in great detail?
Post by a***@att.net
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I can't see how perfect pitch would provide a pianist with any
advantage
Post by Peter T. Daniels
whatsoever.
--
I am not a professional musician though I play both the bassoon and
piano well. My absolute pitch helps me hear very clearly all the
voices of piano music, helps me hear and voice chords more accurately,
tells me when a piano is out of tune or if the tempermant is not
accurate, etc. on the the bassoon it helps me play the instrument in
tune since no note on the bassoon is in perfect tune.
It is a wonderful musical gift.....
Those with pp can also testify to the comments above......
AB
As a person who can do all of the above just fine without perfect pitch,
I seriously doubt that pp has anything to do with your ability to
do any of the above.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
a***@att.net
2005-04-09 01:15:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by a***@att.net
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Maybe people with perfect pitch go into piano-playing because with
that
Post by Peter T. Daniels
instrument, there's nothing they can do about the pitch of their
instrument and all the other instruments have to tune to it.
that is absolute nonsense......
No, it's perfectly sensible. SHall I spell it out for you
in great detail?
I went into piano playing becuase the instrument was in the house at
that time... how would a 6yr old kid worry about changing the pitch of
the piano??
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by a***@att.net
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I can't see how perfect pitch would provide a pianist with any
advantage
Post by Peter T. Daniels
whatsoever.
--
I am not a professional musician though I play both the bassoon and
piano well. My absolute pitch helps me hear very clearly all the
voices of piano music, helps me hear and voice chords more
accurately,
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by a***@att.net
tells me when a piano is out of tune or if the tempermant is not
accurate, etc. on the the bassoon it helps me play the instrument in
tune since no note on the bassoon is in perfect tune.
It is a wonderful musical gift.....
Those with pp can also testify to the comments above......
AB
As a person who can do all of the above just fine without perfect pitch,
I seriously doubt that pp has anything to do with your ability to
do any of the above.
I probably can do the above more accurately and with greater ease. PP
is NOT usually essential for a professional musician but it is very
useful.. it can be of great help when reading a score, or sight
singing.....

AB
Matthew Fields
2005-04-09 02:14:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@att.net
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by a***@att.net
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Maybe people with perfect pitch go into piano-playing because with
that
Post by Peter T. Daniels
instrument, there's nothing they can do about the pitch of their
instrument and all the other instruments have to tune to it.
that is absolute nonsense......
No, it's perfectly sensible. SHall I spell it out for you
in great detail?
I went into piano playing becuase the instrument was in the house at
that time... how would a 6yr old kid worry about changing the pitch of
the piano??
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by a***@att.net
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I can't see how perfect pitch would provide a pianist with any
advantage
Post by Peter T. Daniels
whatsoever.
--
I am not a professional musician though I play both the bassoon and
piano well. My absolute pitch helps me hear very clearly all the
voices of piano music, helps me hear and voice chords more
accurately,
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by a***@att.net
tells me when a piano is out of tune or if the tempermant is not
accurate, etc. on the the bassoon it helps me play the instrument in
tune since no note on the bassoon is in perfect tune.
It is a wonderful musical gift.....
Those with pp can also testify to the comments above......
AB
As a person who can do all of the above just fine without perfect
pitch,
Post by Matthew Fields
I seriously doubt that pp has anything to do with your ability to
do any of the above.
I probably can do the above more accurately and with greater ease. PP
is NOT usually essential for a professional musician but it is very
useful.. it can be of great help when reading a score, or sight
singing.....
Okay, we'll give you one of my scores to read, and/or any score
from the microtonal consortium. Frankly, I think there's no substitute
for training.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
RyanT
2005-04-09 04:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Hmm I'm trying to think of major composers who had pp...

You'd think that a rigid aural memory would get "in the way" of
composition, because it creates fixations on pitch classes that only
make sense to the composer themselves. But I'm guessing there were
enough composers with pp that managed to do fine even with the skill.
I always wondered how people with pp composed their music...I think
I'll put an A there cause I hear it in my head? But if you're hearing
all the pitches all the time, how do you decide?

Ryan
Raymond Hall
2005-04-09 10:55:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by RyanT
Hmm I'm trying to think of major composers who had pp...
You'd think that a rigid aural memory would get "in the way" of
composition, because it creates fixations on pitch classes that only
make sense to the composer themselves. But I'm guessing there were
enough composers with pp that managed to do fine even with the skill.
I always wondered how people with pp composed their music...I think
I'll put an A there cause I hear it in my head? But if you're hearing
all the pitches all the time, how do you decide?
I have always thought about what "perfect pitch" really means to those who
say they possess the curse. I certainly wouldn't want it, because as others
are saying here, is pp painful for when A is tuned to 450, or 410 or 430, or
433.75, or whatever?

Scratches head, and pleased I don't have pp.

Ray H
Taree
Matthew Fields
2005-04-09 13:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by RyanT
Hmm I'm trying to think of major composers who had pp...
You'd think that a rigid aural memory would get "in the way" of
composition, because it creates fixations on pitch classes that only
make sense to the composer themselves. But I'm guessing there were
enough composers with pp that managed to do fine even with the skill.
I always wondered how people with pp composed their music...I think
I'll put an A there cause I hear it in my head? But if you're hearing
all the pitches all the time, how do you decide?
I have always thought about what "perfect pitch" really means to those who
say they possess the curse. I certainly wouldn't want it, because as others
are saying here, is pp painful for when A is tuned to 450, or 410 or 430, or
433.75, or whatever?
Scratches head, and pleased I don't have pp.
Ray H
Taree
A lot of folks--even folks in the business--confuse basic musicianship
and training with perfect pitch. Perfect pitch is mainly a circus-act
skill, the ability to remember a pitch level without significant wavering
for an indefinite period of time without any sensory input. Musicians
generally don't go for long periods of time without hearing music.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Nightingale
2005-04-09 13:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fields
A lot of folks--even folks in the business--confuse basic musicianship
and training with perfect pitch. Perfect pitch is mainly a circus-act
skill, the ability to remember a pitch level without significant wavering
for an indefinite period of time without any sensory input. Musicians
generally don't go for long periods of time without hearing music.
It doesn't have anything to do with musical interest or ability. I
remember one young child I knew years back in Montreal who I think had
perfect pitch, but no interest in music. She once told me that a
particular portable tape player played all the songs wrong. It took me a
while to figure out what she was going on about, but there was actually
a problem with the machine - the playback speed was slow for some
reason, so the pitch of everything was off a bit. When my daughter was
about 7, she heard me humming a song that had been on the radio hours
earlier in the day and told me that I had it wrong - when I checked
later, I found that my error had been to hum it a semitone higher than
the recording. (My daughter is also a non-musician, although she
listens a lot, dances, and picks most of the music for her student's
skating programs.) I've heard some people claim that it can be learned,
but it seems to be something that people are born with.
La Donna Mobile
2005-04-09 14:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nightingale
Post by Matthew Fields
A lot of folks--even folks in the business--confuse basic musicianship
and training with perfect pitch. Perfect pitch is mainly a circus-act
skill, the ability to remember a pitch level without significant wavering
for an indefinite period of time without any sensory input. Musicians
generally don't go for long periods of time without hearing music.
It doesn't have anything to do with musical interest or ability. I
remember one young child I knew years back in Montreal who I think had
perfect pitch, but no interest in music. She once told me that a
particular portable tape player played all the songs wrong. It took me
a while to figure out what she was going on about, but there was
actually a problem with the machine - the playback speed was slow for
some reason, so the pitch of everything was off a bit. When my
daughter was about 7, she heard me humming a song that had been on the
radio hours earlier in the day and told me that I had it wrong - when
I checked later, I found that my error had been to hum it a semitone
higher than the recording. (My daughter is also a non-musician,
although she listens a lot, dances, and picks most of the music for
her student's skating programs.) I've heard some people claim that it
can be learned, but it seems to be something that people are born with.
I have known two people with perfect pitch, both of them gifted
musicians. But I wonder if the fact that they had parents who encouraged
them musically from a young age meant that their perfect pitch was
identified, whilst many many other people have it but it's not
identified because they are not exposed to musicians. Incidentally, both
were adopted soon after birth. One's called Andrea and the other's
called Andrew.
--
http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog/
http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog/
Josep Vilanova
2005-04-09 15:51:05 UTC
Permalink
There should be a degree of learning too. There was an study published
fairly recently about the higher incidence of people with perfect pitch that
speak a pitch-related language like Chinese. The hypothesis was that being
faced with having to learn a pitch related language made people able to have
perfect pitch.

josep
Post by Nightingale
It doesn't have anything to do with musical interest or ability. I
remember one young child I knew years back in Montreal who I think had
perfect pitch, but no interest in music. She once told me that a
particular portable tape player played all the songs wrong. It took me a
while to figure out what she was going on about, but there was actually
a problem with the machine - the playback speed was slow for some
reason, so the pitch of everything was off a bit. When my daughter was
about 7, she heard me humming a song that had been on the radio hours
earlier in the day and told me that I had it wrong - when I checked
later, I found that my error had been to hum it a semitone higher than
the recording. (My daughter is also a non-musician, although she
listens a lot, dances, and picks most of the music for her student's
skating programs.) I've heard some people claim that it can be learned,
but it seems to be something that people are born with.
Nightingale
2005-04-09 18:50:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Josep Vilanova
There should be a degree of learning too. There was an study published
fairly recently about the higher incidence of people with perfect pitch that
speak a pitch-related language like Chinese. The hypothesis was that being
faced with having to learn a pitch related language made people able to have
perfect pitch.
Have they done any study to see how much of that is genetic - for
example what is the incidence of perfect pitch different in Chinese
people growing up in China compared ones who have been in North America
for generations?
Josep Vilanova
2005-04-09 19:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nightingale
Have they done any study to see how much of that is genetic - for
example what is the incidence of perfect pitch different in Chinese
people growing up in China compared ones who have been in North America
for generations?
I wondered that as well. I don't know the answer. I'll have to look it up.

josep
Josep Vilanova
2005-04-09 15:58:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fields
A lot of folks--even folks in the business--confuse basic musicianship
and training with perfect pitch. Perfect pitch is mainly a circus-act
skill, the ability to remember a pitch level without significant wavering
for an indefinite period of time without any sensory input. Musicians
generally don't go for long periods of time without hearing music.
Just remember something I heard long time ago. Didn't Elisabeth Soderstrom
have such a perfect pitch that the just sang an A and the orchestra tuned
up? (maybe someone made that up, don't know, but that's what I was told)


josep
Matthew Fields
2005-04-09 16:29:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Josep Vilanova
Post by Matthew Fields
A lot of folks--even folks in the business--confuse basic musicianship
and training with perfect pitch. Perfect pitch is mainly a circus-act
skill, the ability to remember a pitch level without significant wavering
for an indefinite period of time without any sensory input. Musicians
generally don't go for long periods of time without hearing music.
Just remember something I heard long time ago. Didn't Elisabeth Soderstrom
have such a perfect pitch that the just sang an A and the orchestra tuned
up? (maybe someone made that up, don't know, but that's what I was told)
Check Snopes or Urbanlegends dot com?
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Josep Vilanova
2005-04-09 17:19:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fields
Check Snopes or Urbanlegends dot com?
Urban crowds don't have much of an interest for old Swedish sopranos. I
guess it may be true. Unless she had a studer-troll type of stalker that
made that up for her.


josep
RyanT
2005-04-09 19:23:19 UTC
Permalink
I could argue that I had "perfect pitch" for a little while, although
the definition of the matter seems pretty nebulous in my experience.
(That's not "real" perfect pitch, so they said.)

I had a particularly high stopped horn passage (high G) where I had to
practice on that single note for a while. Eventually that G got
"stuck" in my head and I could sing it without any other feedback. It
was cool for a while since it was a consistancy that I never had
before, but it fell out of practice and I forgot it because I just
never had any practical use for it.

When I composed, that G would come back of course, but it wouldn't make
any sense in the context of the piece. It was just sort of there for
no reason and was an annoyance if anything.

My professor (who has pp) started teaching himself quarter-tones which
I thought was kind of peculiar. I guess as long as you're willing to
expand the vocabulary, it's not necessarily a hinderance.

Ryan
Peter T. Daniels
2005-04-09 03:14:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@att.net
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by a***@att.net
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Maybe people with perfect pitch go into piano-playing because with
that
Post by Peter T. Daniels
instrument, there's nothing they can do about the pitch of their
instrument and all the other instruments have to tune to it.
that is absolute nonsense......
No, it's perfectly sensible. SHall I spell it out for you
in great detail?
I went into piano playing becuase the instrument was in the house at
that time... how would a 6yr old kid worry about changing the pitch of
the piano??
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by a***@att.net
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I can't see how perfect pitch would provide a pianist with any
advantage
Post by Peter T. Daniels
whatsoever.
--
I am not a professional musician though I play both the bassoon and
piano well. My absolute pitch helps me hear very clearly all the
voices of piano music, helps me hear and voice chords more accurately,
tells me when a piano is out of tune or if the tempermant is not
accurate, etc. on the the bassoon it helps me play the instrument in
tune since no note on the bassoon is in perfect tune.
It is a wonderful musical gift.....
Those with pp can also testify to the comments above......
AB
As a person who can do all of the above just fine without perfect pitch,
I seriously doubt that pp has anything to do with your ability to
do any of the above.
I probably can do the above more accurately and with greater ease. PP
is NOT usually essential for a professional musician but it is very
useful.. it can be of great help when reading a score, or sight
singing.....
All right, I'll ask you again. How do you feel about transposing at
sight?

If you've ever worked as a solo or choral accompanist, you've had to do
that.
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
a***@att.net
2005-04-09 14:39:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@att.net
singing.....
All right, I'll ask you again. How do you feel about transposing at
sight?
If you've ever worked as a solo or choral accompanist, you've had to do
that.
--
I cant do that..... that is a different matter and does not necessarily
involve having a keen musical ear. A totally different and unrelated
talent.

AB
La Donna Mobile
2005-04-09 14:53:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@att.net
Post by a***@att.net
singing.....
All right, I'll ask you again. How do you feel about transposing at
sight?
If you've ever worked as a solo or choral accompanist, you've had to
do
Post by a***@att.net
that.
--
I cant do that..... that is a different matter and does not necessarily
involve having a keen musical ear. A totally different and unrelated
talent.
AB
I can do that, and I am without doubt the least musically gifted person
on all these newsgroups. I suspect my ability to do so is more closely
related to my not inconsiderable mathematical instincts than to my
negligble musical abilities.
--
http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog/
http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog/
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
2005-04-09 21:50:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@att.net
Post by a***@att.net
singing.....
All right, I'll ask you again. How do you feel about transposing at
sight?
If you've ever worked as a solo or choral accompanist, you've had to
do
Post by a***@att.net
that.
--
I cant do that..... that is a different matter and does not necessarily
involve having a keen musical ear. A totally different and unrelated
talent.
I'm afraid I have to agree with this guy on that, Peter - my
former accompanist had absolute pitch (more or less), but
when it came to transposing a song down (or up) he had to
have time to work it out in advance, it wasn't something he
could do at sight. (Unless it was only a semi-tone, and
even then he'd play a few wrong notes, the first time through.)
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
2005-04-08 16:57:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam
*First of all, he must have absolute pitch. You can't conduct modern
music without absolute pitch. .....*
But that's CONDUCTING, where it may (perhaps) be an asset -
assuming the instruments are "correctly" tuned. For a
singer, especially, performing with instruments that are NOT
precisely tuned, it can be a real problem. Especially if
he/she follows the notes on the page, without adjusting the
pitch of the voice to that of the instruments. (Although,
with SOME "modern" music, who'd notice?)
Peter T. Daniels
2005-04-07 23:12:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Richter
I've never claimed to be a "musician" - however defined - or to have
perfect pitch. I rarely comment on current artists because I have not
heard them and know that only performance on stage counts (and even then
only when not electronically enhanced). I do comment on recordings which
I know, and I do try to expand my own and others' appreciation through
my WWW site and the CD-ROMs I produce. For a non-musician without
perfect pitch, I appear to be succeeding; with your presumed abilities
in those areas, are you?
What does perfect pitch have to do with anything? Musicians who are
stuck with it consider it something of an inconvenience.
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Mike Richter
2005-04-07 23:38:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What does perfect pitch have to do with anything? Musicians who are
stuck with it consider it something of an inconvenience.
The post to which "Enzoadorato" referred was my reply to an opera-l
question posed to "musicians and those with perfect pitch". In
responding, I said that I am not a musician and that I do not have
perfect pitch.

I agree that perfect pitch is irrelevant in most cases and
counterproductive in some - but I never said it was. Incidentally, it
would be useful for me in preparing recordings that I post at my WWW
site and that I include on CD-ROM. I use pitch pipes now, but it would
be easier if they were not needed.

Of course, it would be easier still if "78s" had been recorded at 78 rpm
and if speeds had not wandered in captures and transfers.

Mike
--
***@cpl.net
http://www.mrichter.com/
p***@my-deja.com
2005-04-08 04:51:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What does perfect pitch have to do with anything? Musicians who are
stuck with it consider it something of an inconvenience.
--
Are you a musician? Do you have a perfect pitch or you don't? What are
the musicians are you quoting, or you just (and most likely) pulled
this out of your anal orifice?

I have a perfect pitch. I can listen the tune and play it, precisely,
right away. I've never considered it inconvenience.
RyanT
2005-04-08 05:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Do you get annoyed in ensemble performances where the pitch tends to
waiver from the standardized A=440hz? I hope you're not one of those
assholes who complain about how everyone is playing in the "wrong"
absolute pitch, because conditions for musical performances are never
ideal.

Say it's a warm day and the piano is flat a couple of cents. You can
whine all you want, but a piano tuner isn't going to be at your whim
just because it's not tuned to your particular equal tempered
memorization. During the course of a performance of an orchestra,
strings will tire out and things will gradually get out of tune. Again
I've seen people whine and blame others for it, but doing so is plain
stupid because it's a natural occurence the most important matter of
professional playing is about blending.

Once you start getting into microtones, just-tones, extended techniques
and alternative tunings the usefulness of the skill deteriorates
rapidly. It's an overrated skill if you ask me, although in some
contexts they can be fairly useful (especially for singers). And no,
you don't need to have perfect pitch to play modern music either, if
you understand the context of where your instrument lies in relation to
the rest of the ensemble.

Ryan
Matthew Fields
2005-04-08 11:01:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@my-deja.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What does perfect pitch have to do with anything? Musicians who are
stuck with it consider it something of an inconvenience.
--
Are you a musician? Do you have a perfect pitch or you don't? What are
the musicians are you quoting, or you just (and most likely) pulled
this out of your anal orifice?
I have a perfect pitch. I can listen the tune and play it, precisely,
right away. I've never considered it inconvenience.
Speaking as a musician with an earned doctorate in music, I say the
latter skills have nothing to do with absolute pitch, and I challenge
you to play piano and A-415 harpsichord in the same concert and see whether
your absolute pitch (if indeed you have it) doesn't interfere.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
2005-04-08 17:09:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by p***@my-deja.com
I have a perfect pitch. I can listen the tune and play it, precisely,
right away. I've never considered it inconvenience.
Speaking as a musician with an earned doctorate in music, I say the
latter skills have nothing to do with absolute pitch, and I challenge
you to play piano and A-415 harpsichord in the same concert and see whether
your absolute pitch (if indeed you have it) doesn't interfere.
What Piggy appears to be describing is good short-term total
recall (which has absolutely NOTHING to do with "perfect
pitch" or the lack of it).
a***@att.net
2005-04-08 23:02:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by p***@my-deja.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What does perfect pitch have to do with anything? Musicians who are
stuck with it consider it something of an inconvenience.
--
Are you a musician? Do you have a perfect pitch or you don't? What are
the musicians are you quoting, or you just (and most likely) pulled
this out of your anal orifice?
I have a perfect pitch. I can listen the tune and play it,
precisely,
Post by Matthew Fields
Post by p***@my-deja.com
right away. I've never considered it inconvenience.
Speaking as a musician with an earned doctorate in music, I say the
latter skills have nothing to do with absolute pitch, and I challenge
you to play piano and A-415 harpsichord in the same concert and see whether
your absolute pitch (if indeed you have it) doesn't interfere.
yes, I have pp and it would be a bit of a problem, AT FIRST, to adjust
to A 415 but I have played keyboard instruments that were very low and
ajusted quickly enough. --

AB
Peter T. Daniels
2005-04-08 12:56:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@my-deja.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What does perfect pitch have to do with anything? Musicians who are
stuck with it consider it something of an inconvenience.
--
Are you a musician? Do you have a perfect pitch or you don't? What are
the musicians are you quoting, or you just (and most likely) pulled
this out of your anal orifice?
I have a perfect pitch. I can listen the tune and play it, precisely,
right away. I've never considered it inconvenience.
What is "a perfect pitch"?

What you described is "playing by ear" or "memory."

If you mean you have perfect pitch, how competent are you at transposing
at sight -- a technique that every professional musician is routinely
expected to have mastered?
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Nightingale
2005-04-08 22:26:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@my-deja.com
I have a perfect pitch. I can listen the tune and play it, precisely,
right away. I've never considered it inconvenience.
I don't have perfect pitch, and for the most part I'm glad. I see
singers in choir who have it have problems with things that don't bother
me at all, like the organist deciding to transpose a hymn down a tone.
They get all worried about transposing, and I don't even notice unless
the new key puts it into a difficult range for me. (I notice
transpositions *down* when I'm singing alto!)

I find singing with some people who have perfect pitch can been a pain,
because they will often do things like come in on what they consider to
be the correct note even when it's slightly different to what the
conductor has hummed or blown on the pitch-pipe. They also frequently
do not listen to the singers around them, and then don't adjust if the
pitch drifts slightly for some reason - I am far more bothered by chords
and intervals being out of tune than if we have drifted a tiny fraction
of a semitone sharp or flat.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
2005-04-09 02:30:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nightingale
I don't have perfect pitch, and for the most part I'm glad. I see
singers in choir who have it have problems with things that don't bother
me at all, like the organist deciding to transpose a hymn down a tone.
They get all worried about transposing, and I don't even notice unless
the new key puts it into a difficult range for me. (I notice
transpositions *down* when I'm singing alto!)
Someone once said "the voice has perfect pitch". I think
that's what they meant - also, if you've sung a particular
song or aria often enough, if you start it a cappela, you
are more likely than not to start on the right note.
(That's not "perfect pitch", just physical memory of how
your voice feels, singing it.)
Post by Nightingale
I find singing with some people who have perfect pitch can been a pain,
because they will often do things like come in on what they consider to
be the correct note even when it's slightly different to what the
conductor has hummed or blown on the pitch-pipe.
Our college choir sang everything unaccompanied, and rather
than use a pitch pipe, our choir director would point to a
choir-member with absolute pitch to provide the starting
key. It impressed audiences no end, to have the choir just
start singing with no obvious pitch given. However, I
remember one time it backfired (with an anthem that already
had the sopranos hitting a high B). The unfortunate student
started the thing a full third higher than written! (There
actually were one or two sopranos who had a high D, but most
were left strangling, after shrieking through a suddenly
much too high tessitura to get there.)
Peter T. Daniels
2005-04-09 03:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Our college choir sang everything unaccompanied, and rather
than use a pitch pipe, our choir director would point to a
choir-member with absolute pitch to provide the starting
key. It impressed audiences no end, to have the choir just
start singing with no obvious pitch given. However, I
remember one time it backfired (with an anthem that already
had the sopranos hitting a high B). The unfortunate student
started the thing a full third higher than written! (There
actually were one or two sopranos who had a high D, but most
were left strangling, after shrieking through a suddenly
much too high tessitura to get there.)
In that case, it would have been useful if the director had had perfect
pitch.

But really, a major third higher?? Surely _everyone_ knew it was the
wrong note.
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Nightingale
2005-04-09 03:37:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
In that case, it would have been useful if the director had had perfect
pitch.
LOL!
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But really, a major third higher?? Surely _everyone_ knew it was the
wrong note.
I would not have known until I got to notes that were too high. Quite a
few years back (several church choirs ago) I made a mistake on an entry
- came in a third too high & kept going. The other sopranos followed me
(some had not even tried to find the start note, and one got it correct
at first, but decided to take my pitch instead). The director
eventually stopped us and pointed out what I'd done, but not before we
had sung several high c's and d's - he reminded us of that occasion any
time a soprano complained of a part being high.
--
Io la Musica son, ch'ai dolci accenti
So far tranquillo ogni turbato core,
Et or di nobil ira et or d'amore
Poss'infiammar le più gelate menti.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
2005-04-09 21:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But really, a major third higher?? Surely _everyone_ knew it was the
wrong note.
W-e-l-l ...... maybe only a minor third. "Notice"? Of
course we did, but it was a (compulsory) college chapel
service, none of us really wanted to be there, and the
conductor was apparently not paying enough attention to hear
and immediately and start again. Evidently, when he did
become aware, he thought the student congregation wouldn't
notice, and just let it go on to see what happened. In
point of fact, they probably didn't - weekly chapel service
was generally regarded as an extra study period by most of
us who were compelled to attend. (Attendance was noted, but
I don't think anything serious happened if you were observed
studying - a "talking to" by the dean, maybe, but so long as
you were physically present, what could they do?)
Peter T. Daniels
2005-04-09 03:20:15 UTC
Permalink
Oh, wait, you said Bs became Ds, so it was only a minor third. Piece o
cake.
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Matthew Fields
2005-04-09 09:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Oh, wait, you said Bs became Ds, so it was only a minor third. Piece o
cake.
--
Okay, YOU sing 'em! :)
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
2005-04-08 01:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Mike: The work you do and the opinions you express are reasons enough in
terms of "highly respected". Any jackass can make an opinion known...but it
takes an honest person to give an honest opinion of value. Not all of we
RMO denizens are perfect...as some lay claim...nor need you be an aristocrat
or a member of the 'upper-crust' to have a thinking brain regarding our
favorite topic...(i.e. opera).

You can listen...yes? Then you needn't be a musician...you're one of the
millions of listeners. And perfect pitch IS A CURSE! I know from first
hand accounts of 2 people I've known and trusted...to have suffered from
that affliction. Consider yourself lucky...and just keep on keeping on!

You haven't attended a live performance in many years. STFW? You've got a
tele and a DVD player...that's close enough. Anyone who thinks
otherwise...probably isn't very knowledgeable or polite. And probably
hasn't attended very many performances themselves. I find those who
criticize the most on any given issue...are usually those who are guilty of
most...of what they criticize in others. That's my 2 cents
worth...hell...make that 20 cents worth! Anyone doesn't like it...tough
cookies.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Enzoadorato
"I haven't attended a performance in over fifteen years."
Quoting the so-called "great" and "greatly respected" Mike Richter.
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0504A&L=OPERA-L&P=R12404&I=-3
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0309B&L=opera-l&P=R13279&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=1
Not that it should be relevant, but I have been disabled by heart disease
for more than fifteen years. My last attempt at attending a performance
ended about an hour after it began; I recovered in three days.
I've never claimed to be a "musician" - however defined - or to have
perfect pitch. I rarely comment on current artists because I have not
heard them and know that only performance on stage counts (and even then
only when not electronically enhanced). I do comment on recordings which I
know, and I do try to expand my own and others' appreciation through my
WWW site and the CD-ROMs I produce. For a non-musician without perfect
pitch, I appear to be succeeding; with your presumed abilities in those
areas, are you?
I don't know who calls me either "great" or "highly respected" - and
frankly don't care. I prefer to write about what I know and to document my
lack of expertise when it's appropriate on opera-l and elsewhere. In fact,
there's a sort of autobiography at my WWW site where you may learn more
than you want to know about me if you're so inclined.
Mike
--
http://www.mrichter.com/
donpaolo
2005-04-09 02:46:48 UTC
Permalink
Personally, I prefer Pepperidge Farm Milano - in all varieties!

DonPaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Mike: The work you do and the opinions you express are reasons enough in
terms of "highly respected". Any jackass can make an opinion known...but
it takes an honest person to give an honest opinion of value. Not all of
we RMO denizens are perfect...as some lay claim...nor need you be an
aristocrat or a member of the 'upper-crust' to have a thinking brain
regarding our favorite topic...(i.e. opera).
You can listen...yes? Then you needn't be a musician...you're one of the
millions of listeners. And perfect pitch IS A CURSE! I know from first
hand accounts of 2 people I've known and trusted...to have suffered from
that affliction. Consider yourself lucky...and just keep on keeping on!
You haven't attended a live performance in many years. STFW? You've got a
tele and a DVD player...that's close enough. Anyone who thinks
otherwise...probably isn't very knowledgeable or polite. And probably
hasn't attended very many performances themselves. I find those who
criticize the most on any given issue...are usually those who are guilty
of most...of what they criticize in others. That's my 2 cents
worth...hell...make that 20 cents worth! Anyone doesn't like it...tough
cookies.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Enzoadorato
"I haven't attended a performance in over fifteen years."
Quoting the so-called "great" and "greatly respected" Mike Richter.
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0504A&L=OPERA-L&P=R12404&I=-3
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0309B&L=opera-l&P=R13279&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=1
Not that it should be relevant, but I have been disabled by heart disease
for more than fifteen years. My last attempt at attending a performance
ended about an hour after it began; I recovered in three days.
I've never claimed to be a "musician" - however defined - or to have
perfect pitch. I rarely comment on current artists because I have not
heard them and know that only performance on stage counts (and even then
only when not electronically enhanced). I do comment on recordings which
I know, and I do try to expand my own and others' appreciation through my
WWW site and the CD-ROMs I produce. For a non-musician without perfect
pitch, I appear to be succeeding; with your presumed abilities in those
areas, are you?
I don't know who calls me either "great" or "highly respected" - and
frankly don't care. I prefer to write about what I know and to document
my lack of expertise when it's appropriate on opera-l and elsewhere. In
fact, there's a sort of autobiography at my WWW site where you may learn
more than you want to know about me if you're so inclined.
Mike
--
http://www.mrichter.com/
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
2005-04-08 20:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Yes please...e con un espresso!
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Personally, I prefer Pepperidge Farm Milano - in all varieties!
DonPaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Mike: The work you do and the opinions you express are reasons enough in
terms of "highly respected". Any jackass can make an opinion known...but
it takes an honest person to give an honest opinion of value. Not all of
we RMO denizens are perfect...as some lay claim...nor need you be an
aristocrat or a member of the 'upper-crust' to have a thinking brain
regarding our favorite topic...(i.e. opera).
You can listen...yes? Then you needn't be a musician...you're one of the
millions of listeners. And perfect pitch IS A CURSE! I know from first
hand accounts of 2 people I've known and trusted...to have suffered from
that affliction. Consider yourself lucky...and just keep on keeping on!
You haven't attended a live performance in many years. STFW? You've got
a tele and a DVD player...that's close enough. Anyone who thinks
otherwise...probably isn't very knowledgeable or polite. And probably
hasn't attended very many performances themselves. I find those who
criticize the most on any given issue...are usually those who are guilty
of most...of what they criticize in others. That's my 2 cents
worth...hell...make that 20 cents worth! Anyone doesn't like it...tough
cookies.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Mike Richter
Post by Enzoadorato
"I haven't attended a performance in over fifteen years."
Quoting the so-called "great" and "greatly respected" Mike Richter.
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0504A&L=OPERA-L&P=R12404&I=-3
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0309B&L=opera-l&P=R13279&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=1
Not that it should be relevant, but I have been disabled by heart
disease for more than fifteen years. My last attempt at attending a
performance ended about an hour after it began; I recovered in three days.
I've never claimed to be a "musician" - however defined - or to have
perfect pitch. I rarely comment on current artists because I have not
heard them and know that only performance on stage counts (and even then
only when not electronically enhanced). I do comment on recordings which
I know, and I do try to expand my own and others' appreciation through
my WWW site and the CD-ROMs I produce. For a non-musician without
perfect pitch, I appear to be succeeding; with your presumed abilities
in those areas, are you?
I don't know who calls me either "great" or "highly respected" - and
frankly don't care. I prefer to write about what I know and to document
my lack of expertise when it's appropriate on opera-l and elsewhere. In
fact, there's a sort of autobiography at my WWW site where you may learn
more than you want to know about me if you're so inclined.
Mike
--
http://www.mrichter.com/
donpaolo
2005-04-09 04:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Con scorza di limone?

DonP.
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Yes please...e con un espresso!
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Personally, I prefer Pepperidge Farm Milano - in all varieties!
DonPaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Mike: The work you do and the opinions you express are reasons enough
in terms of "highly respected". Any jackass can make an opinion
known...but it takes an honest person to give an honest opinion of
value. Not all of we RMO denizens are perfect...as some lay claim...nor
need you be an aristocrat or a member of the 'upper-crust' to have a
thinking brain regarding our favorite topic...(i.e. opera).
You can listen...yes? Then you needn't be a musician...you're one of
the millions of listeners. And perfect pitch IS A CURSE! I know from
first hand accounts of 2 people I've known and trusted...to have
suffered from that affliction. Consider yourself lucky...and just keep
on keeping on!
You haven't attended a live performance in many years. STFW? You've got
a tele and a DVD player...that's close enough. Anyone who thinks
otherwise...probably isn't very knowledgeable or polite. And probably
hasn't attended very many performances themselves. I find those who
criticize the most on any given issue...are usually those who are guilty
of most...of what they criticize in others. That's my 2 cents
worth...hell...make that 20 cents worth! Anyone doesn't like it...tough
cookies.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Mike Richter
Post by Enzoadorato
"I haven't attended a performance in over fifteen years."
Quoting the so-called "great" and "greatly respected" Mike Richter.
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0504A&L=OPERA-L&P=R12404&I=-3
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0309B&L=opera-l&P=R13279&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=1
Not that it should be relevant, but I have been disabled by heart
disease for more than fifteen years. My last attempt at attending a
performance ended about an hour after it began; I recovered in three days.
I've never claimed to be a "musician" - however defined - or to have
perfect pitch. I rarely comment on current artists because I have not
heard them and know that only performance on stage counts (and even
then only when not electronically enhanced). I do comment on recordings
which I know, and I do try to expand my own and others' appreciation
through my WWW site and the CD-ROMs I produce. For a non-musician
without perfect pitch, I appear to be succeeding; with your presumed
abilities in those areas, are you?
I don't know who calls me either "great" or "highly respected" - and
frankly don't care. I prefer to write about what I know and to document
my lack of expertise when it's appropriate on opera-l and elsewhere. In
fact, there's a sort of autobiography at my WWW site where you may
learn more than you want to know about me if you're so inclined.
Mike
--
http://www.mrichter.com/
REG
2005-04-08 23:37:40 UTC
Permalink
That's a pretty liberal drink, Jon. I hope you don't end up with lattes
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Yes please...e con un espresso!
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Personally, I prefer Pepperidge Farm Milano - in all varieties!
DonPaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Mike: The work you do and the opinions you express are reasons enough in
terms of "highly respected". Any jackass can make an opinion known...but
it takes an honest person to give an honest opinion of value. Not all of
we RMO denizens are perfect...as some lay claim...nor need you be an
aristocrat or a member of the 'upper-crust' to have a thinking brain
regarding our favorite topic...(i.e. opera).
You can listen...yes? Then you needn't be a musician...you're one of the
millions of listeners. And perfect pitch IS A CURSE! I know from first
hand accounts of 2 people I've known and trusted...to have suffered from
that affliction. Consider yourself lucky...and just keep on keeping on!
You haven't attended a live performance in many years. STFW? You've got
a tele and a DVD player...that's close enough. Anyone who thinks
otherwise...probably isn't very knowledgeable or polite. And probably
hasn't attended very many performances themselves. I find those who
criticize the most on any given issue...are usually those who are guilty
of most...of what they criticize in others. That's my 2 cents
worth...hell...make that 20 cents worth! Anyone doesn't like it...tough
cookies.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Mike Richter
Post by Enzoadorato
"I haven't attended a performance in over fifteen years."
Quoting the so-called "great" and "greatly respected" Mike Richter.
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0504A&L=OPERA-L&P=R12404&I=-3
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0309B&L=opera-l&P=R13279&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=1
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Mike Richter
Not that it should be relevant, but I have been disabled by heart
disease for more than fifteen years. My last attempt at attending a
performance ended about an hour after it began; I recovered in three days.
I've never claimed to be a "musician" - however defined - or to have
perfect pitch. I rarely comment on current artists because I have not
heard them and know that only performance on stage counts (and even then
only when not electronically enhanced). I do comment on recordings which
I know, and I do try to expand my own and others' appreciation through
my WWW site and the CD-ROMs I produce. For a non-musician without
perfect pitch, I appear to be succeeding; with your presumed abilities
in those areas, are you?
I don't know who calls me either "great" or "highly respected" - and
frankly don't care. I prefer to write about what I know and to document
my lack of expertise when it's appropriate on opera-l and elsewhere. In
fact, there's a sort of autobiography at my WWW site where you may learn
more than you want to know about me if you're so inclined.
Mike
--
http://www.mrichter.com/
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
2005-04-09 01:02:06 UTC
Permalink
So I scratch a little...the itch!
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by REG
That's a pretty liberal drink, Jon. I hope you don't end up with lattes
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Yes please...e con un espresso!
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Personally, I prefer Pepperidge Farm Milano - in all varieties!
DonPaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Mike: The work you do and the opinions you express are reasons enough
in
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
terms of "highly respected". Any jackass can make an opinion
known...but
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
it takes an honest person to give an honest opinion of value. Not all
of
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
we RMO denizens are perfect...as some lay claim...nor need you be an
aristocrat or a member of the 'upper-crust' to have a thinking brain
regarding our favorite topic...(i.e. opera).
You can listen...yes? Then you needn't be a musician...you're one of
the
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
millions of listeners. And perfect pitch IS A CURSE! I know from
first
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
hand accounts of 2 people I've known and trusted...to have suffered
from
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
that affliction. Consider yourself lucky...and just keep on keeping
on!
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
You haven't attended a live performance in many years. STFW? You've
got
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
a tele and a DVD player...that's close enough. Anyone who thinks
otherwise...probably isn't very knowledgeable or polite. And probably
hasn't attended very many performances themselves. I find those who
criticize the most on any given issue...are usually those who are
guilty
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
of most...of what they criticize in others. That's my 2 cents
worth...hell...make that 20 cents worth! Anyone doesn't like
it...tough
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
cookies.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Mike Richter
Post by Enzoadorato
"I haven't attended a performance in over fifteen years."
Quoting the so-called "great" and "greatly respected" Mike Richter.
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0504A&L=OPERA-L&P=R12404&I=-3
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0309B&L=opera-l&P=R13279&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=1
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Mike Richter
Not that it should be relevant, but I have been disabled by heart
disease for more than fifteen years. My last attempt at attending a
performance ended about an hour after it began; I recovered in three days.
I've never claimed to be a "musician" - however defined - or to have
perfect pitch. I rarely comment on current artists because I have not
heard them and know that only performance on stage counts (and even
then
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Mike Richter
only when not electronically enhanced). I do comment on recordings
which
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Mike Richter
I know, and I do try to expand my own and others' appreciation through
my WWW site and the CD-ROMs I produce. For a non-musician without
perfect pitch, I appear to be succeeding; with your presumed abilities
in those areas, are you?
I don't know who calls me either "great" or "highly respected" - and
frankly don't care. I prefer to write about what I know and to
document
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Mike Richter
my lack of expertise when it's appropriate on opera-l and elsewhere.
In
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Mike Richter
fact, there's a sort of autobiography at my WWW site where you may
learn
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by donpaolo
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Mike Richter
more than you want to know about me if you're so inclined.
Mike
--
http://www.mrichter.com/
REG
2005-04-08 02:41:41 UTC
Permalink
Dear Mike

You understand, of course, that the REG who wrote the prior column attacking
you was a troll posing as me, and not me.

Best
REG
Post by Mike Richter
Post by Enzoadorato
"I haven't attended a performance in over fifteen years."
Quoting the so-called "great" and "greatly respected" Mike Richter.
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0504A&L=OPERA-L&P=R12404&I=-3
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0309B&L=opera-l&P=R13279&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=1
Post by Mike Richter
Not that it should be relevant, but I have been disabled by heart
disease for more than fifteen years. My last attempt at attending a
performance ended about an hour after it began; I recovered in three days.
I've never claimed to be a "musician" - however defined - or to have
perfect pitch. I rarely comment on current artists because I have not
heard them and know that only performance on stage counts (and even then
only when not electronically enhanced). I do comment on recordings which
I know, and I do try to expand my own and others' appreciation through
my WWW site and the CD-ROMs I produce. For a non-musician without
perfect pitch, I appear to be succeeding; with your presumed abilities
in those areas, are you?
I don't know who calls me either "great" or "highly respected" - and
frankly don't care. I prefer to write about what I know and to document
my lack of expertise when it's appropriate on opera-l and elsewhere. In
fact, there's a sort of autobiography at my WWW site where you may learn
more than you want to know about me if you're so inclined.
Mike
--
http://www.mrichter.com/
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
2005-04-08 16:50:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Richter
Not that it should be relevant, but I have been disabled by heart
disease for more than fifteen years. My last attempt at attending a
performance ended about an hour after it began; I recovered in three days.
Mike, you obviously have better things to do than follow the
"Invasion of the Trolls" on these newsgroups. We have been
plagued with innumerable mean-spirited and insulting posts
forging the names of regular posters. All have yahoo return
addresses (instead of the ISP of the genuine poster) and
apparently originate with the unfortunate individual who is
pathologically obsessed with Cheryl Studer. No one here who
matters would take their critical comments about you seriously!
Richard Kauffman & Jay Loeb
2005-04-08 10:36:19 UTC
Permalink
I find it fully unacceptable for someone to go around issuing reviews
and opinions about people he hasn't heard in LIVE performance. This is
why this man's "prized" opinions are nothing but FAKERY.

Loeb/Kauffman
Post by Enzoadorato
"I haven't attended a performance in over fifteen years."
Quoting the so-called "great" and "greatly respected" Mike Richter.
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0504A&L=OPERA-L&P=R12404&I=-3
http://listserv.cuny.edu/Scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0309B&L=opera-l&P=R13279&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=1
Matthew Fields
2005-04-08 11:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Kauffman & Jay Loeb
I find it fully unacceptable for someone to go around issuing reviews
and opinions about people he hasn't heard in LIVE performance. This is
why this man's "prized" opinions are nothing but FAKERY.
Loeb/Kauffman
Reminds me of the Soviet musical authority who had the good sense,
when caught by the whole politburo issuing a critique of a performance
which hadn't taken place, congratulating Katchaturian on having NOT
composed what actually was played.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Peter T. Daniels
2005-04-08 12:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Kauffman & Jay Loeb
I find it fully unacceptable for someone to go around issuing reviews
and opinions about people he hasn't heard in LIVE performance. This is
why this man's "prized" opinions are nothing but FAKERY.
Even if it's a review/opinion of a recording?

What if the performer died before the reviewer was born?
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
d***@brixton.fsworld.co.uk
2005-04-08 13:34:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Kauffman & Jay Loeb
I find it fully unacceptable for someone to go around issuing reviews
and opinions about people he hasn't heard in LIVE performance. This is
why this man's "prized" opinions are nothing but FAKERY.
Even if it's a review/opinion of a recording?
What if the performer died before the reviewer was born?
--
Peter, beware - you are asking a perfectly sensible question...to
StuderTroll
Richard Loeb
2005-04-08 14:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Thanks - the Studer troll is angry because I had him thrown off one board
and trapped him into having to apologize on another Richard
Post by Richard Kauffman & Jay Loeb
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Kauffman & Jay Loeb
I find it fully unacceptable for someone to go around issuing
reviews
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Kauffman & Jay Loeb
and opinions about people he hasn't heard in LIVE performance. This
is
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Kauffman & Jay Loeb
why this man's "prized" opinions are nothing but FAKERY.
Even if it's a review/opinion of a recording?
What if the performer died before the reviewer was born?
--
Peter, beware - you are asking a perfectly sensible question...to
StuderTroll
Peter T. Daniels
2005-04-08 16:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@brixton.fsworld.co.uk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Kauffman & Jay Loeb
I find it fully unacceptable for someone to go around issuing reviews
and opinions about people he hasn't heard in LIVE performance. This is
why this man's "prized" opinions are nothing but FAKERY.
Even if it's a review/opinion of a recording?
What if the performer died before the reviewer was born?
--
Peter, beware - you are asking a perfectly sensible question...to
StuderTroll
But it didn't make a dozen postings under the same name, each starting a
new thread! (And thus making it hard to delete them all with one click.)
--
Peter T. Daniels ***@att.net
Mike Richter
2005-04-08 13:56:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Kauffman & Jay Loeb
I find it fully unacceptable for someone to go around issuing reviews
and opinions about people he hasn't heard in LIVE performance. This is
why this man's "prized" opinions are nothing but FAKERY.
Loeb/Kauffman
Post by Enzoadorato
"I haven't attended a performance in over fifteen years."
Quoting the so-called "great" and "greatly respected" Mike Richter.
Which is "this man"? The one you quoted or the one he cited?

I have offered opinions on recordings I know, but am not aware of having
made claims (for better or for worse) about singers I have not heard.

Mike
--
***@cpl.net
http://www.mrichter.com/
Eric Grunin
2005-04-08 18:16:45 UTC
Permalink
Mike
Rest easy, Mike, the person creating this garbage is a known lunatic,
posting under several different names. Nobody pays him any mind.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
2005-04-08 17:05:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Kauffman & Jay Loeb
I find it fully unacceptable for someone to go around issuing reviews
and opinions about people he hasn't heard in LIVE performance. This is
why this man's "prized" opinions are nothing but FAKERY.
Loeb/Kauffman
Another "observation" from one of the yahoo imposters!
Richard Loeb
2005-04-08 17:56:30 UTC
Permalink
Its interesting that the troll, who goes through its meaningless life
contributing absolutely ZERO, has things to say about a guy whose
dedication to the preservation of vocal art is well known. I also think a
psychiatrist would be interested in the usurping of other users names -
seems to be an inferiority complex at work. Actually when the troll uses my
name is just gives me a feeling of, I don't know, empowerment!!!!Esp. since
everyone knows it really isn't me. As someone once said - I'll worry when
they stop writing about me!!!!!Richard
Post by EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Post by Richard Kauffman & Jay Loeb
I find it fully unacceptable for someone to go around issuing reviews
and opinions about people he hasn't heard in LIVE performance. This is
why this man's "prized" opinions are nothing but FAKERY.
Loeb/Kauffman
Another "observation" from one of the yahoo imposters!
a***@aol.com
2005-04-08 23:36:00 UTC
Permalink
Regardless of where this thread has now gone, perfect pitch (while no
doubt a great natural asset) does not tell you how to "feel" a piece of
music nor how to play it.

It does not tell how much to phrase, how much f or how little, nor how
much rubato or how little.

The possession of pp will not help your interpretation of a diminuendo
nor will it help with what lusingando means.

Music is all sorts of things, in my opinion, and pitch is only one of
the contributors. I do not think perfect pitch an absolute gateway to
the performance of music. And, anyway, whose pitch? A: 440 or a
medieval A or the pitch of the singer accompanying the Sitar player in
Utar Pradesh?

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins



Kind regards,
Alan M.Watkins
a***@att.net
2005-04-09 01:19:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
Regardless of where this thread has now gone, perfect pitch (while no
doubt a great natural asset) does not tell you how to "feel" a piece of
music nor how to play it.
perfect point:-))) You are absolutely correct. I had a friend who also
had pp who was a miserable musician and barely understood how to "feel"
a piece as you mention above. And I agree with all that follows below
as well.

AB
Post by a***@aol.com
It does not tell how much to phrase, how much f or how little, nor how
much rubato or how little.
The possession of pp will not help your interpretation of a
diminuendo
Post by a***@aol.com
nor will it help with what lusingando means.
Music is all sorts of things, in my opinion, and pitch is only one of
the contributors. I do not think perfect pitch an absolute gateway to
the performance of music. And, anyway, whose pitch? A: 440 or a
medieval A or the pitch of the singer accompanying the Sitar player in
Utar Pradesh?
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Kind regards,
Alan M.Watkins
Enzoadorato
2005-04-09 06:29:28 UTC
Permalink
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