Discussion:
Temirkanov Brahms' Second
(too old to reply)
b***@phillynews.com
2005-10-09 03:23:39 UTC
Permalink
I'm now officially a BIG Yuri Temirkanov fan. The only previous time I
had seen him live was perhaps five years ago at the Academy of Music.
He led a performance of the Shostakovich seventh that I still count
among the handfull of best performances I've ever been present for.

I can add another Temirkanov-led performance to that short list after
seeing him conduct just an awesome Brahms second symphony. This is up
there with a fourth that I saw Sawallisch conduct at the Academy as the
two best live Brahms symphony performances I've witnessed. He made the
opening movement sound fresher than I've heard in ages. David Stearns
mentioned in his review of Thursday's performance that Temirkanov
brought out the fugue-like aspects of the music and I could definately
hear that during the opening movement.
I like a real rip-roaring finale and generally walk out of a live
performance thinking I didn't get it. But that wasn't the case tonight.
Temirkanov really had the strings blazing away.

I'm hoping that since he's giving up his Baltimore job, he'll return to
making frequent guest appearances in Philly. This was his first time
here since that Shostakovich concert at the Academy.

Helene Grimaud opened the concert with Rachmaninoff's second concerto.
I thought she played the opening movement to slow, at times losing the
melodic line. But I enjoyed the last two movements very much.

Was anyone else at tonight's concert? I don't listen to a lot of solo
piano music. I'd like to know what Grimaud's encore was. Thought it
might be a prelude, and possibly Rachmaninoff, but I'm not sure.

Barry
George Murnu
2005-10-09 05:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Last year he opened the season of the Baltimore Symphony with a Brahms 1st
which was as good as any that I heard live, certainly of the level of Abbado
/ BPO that I heard some years ago at Carnegie Hall. I am going to miss this
guy in Baltimore...

Regards,

George
Post by b***@phillynews.com
I'm now officially a BIG Yuri Temirkanov fan. The only previous time I
had seen him live was perhaps five years ago at the Academy of Music.
He led a performance of the Shostakovich seventh that I still count
among the handfull of best performances I've ever been present for.
I can add another Temirkanov-led performance to that short list after
seeing him conduct just an awesome Brahms second symphony. This is up
there with a fourth that I saw Sawallisch conduct at the Academy as the
two best live Brahms symphony performances I've witnessed. He made the
opening movement sound fresher than I've heard in ages. David Stearns
mentioned in his review of Thursday's performance that Temirkanov
brought out the fugue-like aspects of the music and I could definately
hear that during the opening movement.
I like a real rip-roaring finale and generally walk out of a live
performance thinking I didn't get it. But that wasn't the case tonight.
Temirkanov really had the strings blazing away.
I'm hoping that since he's giving up his Baltimore job, he'll return to
making frequent guest appearances in Philly. This was his first time
here since that Shostakovich concert at the Academy.
Helene Grimaud opened the concert with Rachmaninoff's second concerto.
I thought she played the opening movement to slow, at times losing the
melodic line. But I enjoyed the last two movements very much.
Was anyone else at tonight's concert? I don't listen to a lot of solo
piano music. I'd like to know what Grimaud's encore was. Thought it
might be a prelude, and possibly Rachmaninoff, but I'm not sure.
Barry
b***@phillynews.com
2005-10-09 05:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Murnu
Last year he opened the season of the Baltimore Symphony with a Brahms 1st
which was as good as any that I heard live, certainly of the level of Abbado
/ BPO that I heard some years ago at Carnegie Hall. I am going to miss this
guy in Baltimore...
Regards,
George
After tonight, I'm considering going up to either New York or Boston
later this season to hear him conduct the fourth.

Barry
George Murnu
2005-10-09 17:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by George Murnu
Last year he opened the season of the Baltimore Symphony with a Brahms 1st
which was as good as any that I heard live, certainly of the level of Abbado
/ BPO that I heard some years ago at Carnegie Hall. I am going to miss this
guy in Baltimore...
Regards,
George
After tonight, I'm considering going up to either New York or Boston
later this season to hear him conduct the fourth.
Why not Baltimore as well, certainly closer to Philly than to Boston. Based
on the performances that I heard before, I am really looking forward his
all-Mozart concert in March I think. And it is rare today that I am looking
forward an all-Mozart concert.

Regards,

George
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Barry
b***@phillynews.com
2005-10-09 17:38:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Murnu
Post by b***@phillynews.com
After tonight, I'm considering going up to either New York or Boston
later this season to hear him conduct the fourth.
Why not Baltimore as well, certainly closer to Philly than to Boston. Based
on the performances that I heard before, I am really looking forward his
all-Mozart concert in March I think. And it is rare today that I am looking
forward an all-Mozart concert.
Regards,
George
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Barry
I'll check out the Baltimore schedule, but I've never been to a concert
in Symphony Hall in Boston, and I'd really like to rectify that, given
the reputation of its accoustics.
Barry
Sacqueboutier
2005-10-09 09:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Murnu
Last year he opened the season of the Baltimore Symphony with a Brahms 1st
which was as good as any that I heard live, certainly of the level of Abbado
/ BPO that I heard some years ago at Carnegie Hall. I am going to miss this
guy in Baltimore...
You sexist pig, you. You're going to mist this GUY, clearly implying
that you don't want a woman in the position.

;-)
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Raymond Hall
2005-10-09 09:39:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Murnu
Last year he opened the season of the Baltimore Symphony with a Brahms 1st
which was as good as any that I heard live, certainly of the level of Abbado
/ BPO that I heard some years ago at Carnegie Hall. I am going to miss this
guy in Baltimore...
You sexist pig, you. You're going to mist this GUY, clearly implying that
you don't want a woman in the position.
;-)
At least Ms Alsop will shove more newer music down their throats.
<g>

Ray H
Taree
Tom Deacon
2005-10-09 13:16:54 UTC
Permalink
On 10/9/05 5:39 AM, in article
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by George Murnu
Last year he opened the season of the Baltimore Symphony with a Brahms 1st
which was as good as any that I heard live, certainly of the level of Abbado
/ BPO that I heard some years ago at Carnegie Hall. I am going to miss this
guy in Baltimore...
You sexist pig, you. You're going to mist this GUY, clearly implying that
you don't want a woman in the position.
;-)
At least Ms Alsop will shove more newer music down their throats.
Ah, that's what the classical music lovers in Baltimore really need: to be
force fed hateful contemporary music by an Amazon in tails.

TD
Richard S. Sandmeyer
2005-10-09 15:12:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/9/05 5:39 AM, in article
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by George Murnu
Last year he opened the season of the Baltimore Symphony with a Brahms 1st
which was as good as any that I heard live, certainly of the level of Abbado
/ BPO that I heard some years ago at Carnegie Hall. I am going to miss this
guy in Baltimore...
You sexist pig, you. You're going to mist this GUY, clearly implying that
you don't want a woman in the position.
;-)
At least Ms Alsop will shove more newer music down their throats.
Ah, that's what the classical music lovers in Baltimore really need: to be
force fed hateful contemporary music by an Amazon in tails.
TD
I expect the comment about "hateful contemporary music by an Amazon" was
tongue-in-cheek. However, just for the record, here is the content of
the two concert programs Alsop is conducting in Baltimore this season
(Temirkanov's final season there):

January 12/13 2006
Rouse: Symphony No. 1
Mozart: Piano Concerto No. 17 (with Piotr Anderszewski)
Dvorak: Symphony No. 7

June 15/16 2006
Kabalevsky: Colas Breugnon Overture
Rachmaninoff: Symphonic Dances
Corigliano: Violin Concerto "The Red Violin" (with Joshua Bell)

It would appear that the "force feeding" isn't that radical. Only one
out of three (Rouse and Corigliano) on each program could be considered
contemporary, and neither of them is very "hateful" in my estimation.
--
Rich Sandmeyer
rich dot sand at verizon dot net
j***@aol.com
2005-10-09 17:44:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard S. Sandmeyer
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/9/05 5:39 AM, in article
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by George Murnu
Last year he opened the season of the Baltimore Symphony with a Brahms 1st
which was as good as any that I heard live, certainly of the level of Abbado
/ BPO that I heard some years ago at Carnegie Hall. I am going to miss this
guy in Baltimore...
You sexist pig, you. You're going to mist this GUY, clearly implying that
you don't want a woman in the position.
;-)
At least Ms Alsop will shove more newer music down their throats.
Ah, that's what the classical music lovers in Baltimore really need: to be
force fed hateful contemporary music by an Amazon in tails.
TD
I expect the comment about "hateful contemporary music by an Amazon" was
tongue-in-cheek. However, just for the record, here is the content of
the two concert programs Alsop is conducting in Baltimore this season
January 12/13 2006
Rouse: Symphony No. 1
Mozart: Piano Concerto No. 17 (with Piotr Anderszewski)
Dvorak: Symphony No. 7
June 15/16 2006
Kabalevsky: Colas Breugnon Overture
Rachmaninoff: Symphonic Dances
Corigliano: Violin Concerto "The Red Violin" (with Joshua Bell)
It would appear that the "force feeding" isn't that radical. Only one
out of three (Rouse and Corigliano) on each program could be considered
contemporary, and neither of them is very "hateful" in my estimation.
Not radical at all, but I know more than one orchestral player who
cringes at the prospect of playing the super-loud, noisy stuff that
Rouse sometimes serves up, even though as a listener (at a healthy
distance from the stage) I've found his music enjoyable enough in the
moment.

--Jeff
Sacqueboutier
2005-10-10 14:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
Post by Raymond Hall
At least Ms Alsop will shove more newer music down their throats.
Ah, that's what the classical music lovers in Baltimore really need: to be
force fed hateful contemporary music by an Amazon in tails.
TD
And here we all thought Deacon was a nice, compassionate liberal who
was intelligent enough to appreciate good music no matter what century
it came from. Now we discover he nothing more than a bigoted,
Chavinistic slug leaving a slimy trail on the newsgroup and thinks
music composition ended with the turn of the 19th century. What a
Neanderthal.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Tom Deacon
2005-10-10 15:26:55 UTC
Permalink
On 10/10/05 10:09 AM, in article
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Tom Deacon
Post by Raymond Hall
At least Ms Alsop will shove more newer music down their throats.
Ah, that's what the classical music lovers in Baltimore really need: to be
force fed hateful contemporary music by an Amazon in tails.
TD
And here we all thought Deacon was a nice, compassionate liberal who
was intelligent enough to appreciate good music no matter what century
it came from.
Do you believe in Santa Claus, too?

TD
Sacqueboutier
2005-10-11 01:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/10/05 10:09 AM, in article
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Tom Deacon
Post by Raymond Hall
At least Ms Alsop will shove more newer music down their throats.
Ah, that's what the classical music lovers in Baltimore really need: to be
force fed hateful contemporary music by an Amazon in tails.
TD
And here we all thought Deacon was a nice, compassionate liberal who
was intelligent enough to appreciate good music no matter what century
it came from.
Do you believe in Santa Claus, too?
TD
:-)
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Michael Schaffer
2005-10-10 22:20:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Tom Deacon
Post by Raymond Hall
At least Ms Alsop will shove more newer music down their throats.
Ah, that's what the classical music lovers in Baltimore really need: to be
force fed hateful contemporary music by an Amazon in tails.
TD
And here we all thought Deacon was a nice, compassionate liberal who
was intelligent enough to appreciate good music no matter what century
it came from. Now we discover he nothing more than a bigoted,
Chavinistic slug leaving a slimy trail on the newsgroup and thinks
music composition ended with the turn of the 19th century. What a
Neanderthal.
Please don't put down the Neanderthals! Maybe they were really nice
people! We will never know though.
Post by Sacqueboutier
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
George Murnu
2005-10-09 17:13:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by George Murnu
Last year he opened the season of the Baltimore Symphony with a Brahms 1st
which was as good as any that I heard live, certainly of the level of Abbado
/ BPO that I heard some years ago at Carnegie Hall. I am going to miss this
guy in Baltimore...
You sexist pig, you. You're going to mist this GUY, clearly implying that
you don't want a woman in the position.
;-)
At least Ms Alsop will shove more newer music down their throats.
<g>
But Ms Aslop tastes in new music are towards the more conservative type so I
don't think this will be a big issue. And I even expect attendance to go
up with her.

Regards,

George
Post by Raymond Hall
Ray H
Taree
j***@aol.com
2005-10-09 17:42:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Murnu
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by George Murnu
Last year he opened the season of the Baltimore Symphony with a Brahms 1st
which was as good as any that I heard live, certainly of the level of Abbado
/ BPO that I heard some years ago at Carnegie Hall. I am going to miss this
guy in Baltimore...
You sexist pig, you. You're going to mist this GUY, clearly implying
that
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by Sacqueboutier
you don't want a woman in the position.
;-)
At least Ms Alsop will shove more newer music down their throats.
<g>
But Ms Aslop tastes in new music are towards the more conservative type so I
don't think this will be a big issue. And I even expect attendance to go
up with her.
"Conservative"? It's hard to know what is conservative these days. Even
"establishment" is hard to figure? Let's just say she's not a fool when
it comes to programming music that the public and the popular press
believe is "fashionable" and "listenable".

--Jeff
Sacqueboutier
2005-10-10 14:06:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by George Murnu
Last year he opened the season of the Baltimore Symphony with a Brahms 1st
which was as good as any that I heard live, certainly of the level of Abbado
/ BPO that I heard some years ago at Carnegie Hall. I am going to miss this
guy in Baltimore...
You sexist pig, you. You're going to mist this GUY, clearly implying
that you don't want a woman in the position.
;-)
At least Ms Alsop will shove more newer music down their throats.
<g>
Ray H
Taree
Yes, I think she's a good get.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
George Murnu
2005-10-09 17:10:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by George Murnu
Last year he opened the season of the Baltimore Symphony with a Brahms 1st
which was as good as any that I heard live, certainly of the level of Abbado
/ BPO that I heard some years ago at Carnegie Hall. I am going to miss this
guy in Baltimore...
You sexist pig, you. You're going to mist this GUY, clearly implying
that you don't want a woman in the position.
Don't worry, there's still hope! Ivan Fischer has just been named principal
guest conductor of the NSO in Washington, so this is great news as Fischer
is my favorite conductor of his generation. And besides as I understand it
Temirkanov will still guest conduct in Baltimore.

Regards,

George
Post by Sacqueboutier
;-)
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Tom Deacon
2005-10-09 17:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Murnu
Don't worry, there's still hope! Ivan Fischer has just been named principal
guest conductor of the NSO in Washington, so this is great news as Fischer
is my favorite conductor of his generation. And besides as I understand it
Temirkanov will still guest conduct in Baltimore.
You will, indeed, be lucky to have two fine conductors plying their trade in
Baltimore and Washington, even if it is on a part time basis. If you just
went to the concerts of both of these musicians, you would have a nice
season of great music-making.

TD
Sacqueboutier
2005-10-10 14:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Murnu
Don't worry, there's still hope! Ivan Fischer has just been named principal
guest conductor of the NSO in Washington, so this is great news as Fischer
is my favorite conductor of his generation. And besides as I understand it
Temirkanov will still guest conduct in Baltimore.
I've liked Temirkanov's recordings and think he was good in Balmer.
Good luck to him. Also good for Fischer. I look forward to his work
with the NSO, though I wish they would hire an American conductor. It
seems they can find more work in Europe than in the US. Silly, isn't
it?
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Tom Deacon
2005-10-10 15:28:40 UTC
Permalink
On 10/10/05 10:12 AM, in article
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by George Murnu
Don't worry, there's still hope! Ivan Fischer has just been named principal
guest conductor of the NSO in Washington, so this is great news as Fischer
is my favorite conductor of his generation. And besides as I understand it
Temirkanov will still guest conduct in Baltimore.
I've liked Temirkanov's recordings and think he was good in Balmer.
Good luck to him. Also good for Fischer. I look forward to his work
with the NSO, though I wish they would hire an American conductor. It
seems they can find more work in Europe than in the US. Silly, isn't
it?
Why silly?

This is (mostly) European music.

Of course American audiences always want the best and are willing and able
to pay for it.

Don't confuse artistic quality with parochial nationalism, Don.

TD
Sacqueboutier
2005-10-11 01:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/10/05 10:12 AM, in article
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by George Murnu
Don't worry, there's still hope! Ivan Fischer has just been named principal
guest conductor of the NSO in Washington, so this is great news as Fischer
is my favorite conductor of his generation. And besides as I understand it
Temirkanov will still guest conduct in Baltimore.
I've liked Temirkanov's recordings and think he was good in Balmer.
Good luck to him. Also good for Fischer. I look forward to his work
with the NSO, though I wish they would hire an American conductor. It
seems they can find more work in Europe than in the US. Silly, isn't
it?
Why silly?
This is (mostly) European music.
Of course American audiences always want the best and are willing and able
to pay for it.
Don't confuse artistic quality with parochial nationalism, Don.
TD
No surprise really to see Deacon once again misses the point.

There are fine conductors on both sides of the pond. Why so many
American orchestras think they have to get Europeans is beyond me.
It's getting better...started with Bernstein and now we have Levine,
MTT, Slatkin, Robertson, Maazel. Any others with "major" orchestras in
the US? Zinman went away.

BTW, any world class conductors hail from our neighbor to the north?
Not a flippant question, an honest one.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
graham
2005-10-11 01:44:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/10/05 10:12 AM, in article
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by George Murnu
Don't worry, there's still hope! Ivan Fischer has just been named principal
guest conductor of the NSO in Washington, so this is great news as Fischer
is my favorite conductor of his generation. And besides as I understand it
Temirkanov will still guest conduct in Baltimore.
I've liked Temirkanov's recordings and think he was good in Balmer.
Good luck to him. Also good for Fischer. I look forward to his work
with the NSO, though I wish they would hire an American conductor. It
seems they can find more work in Europe than in the US. Silly, isn't
it?
Why silly?
This is (mostly) European music.
Of course American audiences always want the best and are willing and able
to pay for it.
Don't confuse artistic quality with parochial nationalism, Don.
TD
No surprise really to see Deacon once again misses the point.
There are fine conductors on both sides of the pond. Why so many American
orchestras think they have to get Europeans is beyond me. It's getting
better...started with Bernstein and now we have Levine, MTT, Slatkin,
Robertson, Maazel. Any others with "major" orchestras in the US? Zinman
went away.
BTW, any world class conductors hail from our neighbor to the north? Not
a flippant question, an honest one.
--
Mario Bernardi.
George Murnu
2005-10-11 02:02:40 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by graham
Post by Sacqueboutier
BTW, any world class conductors hail from our neighbor to the north?
Not
Post by graham
Post by Sacqueboutier
a flippant question, an honest one.
--
Mario Bernardi.
World class???
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-10-11 03:34:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Murnu
[snip]
Post by graham
Post by Sacqueboutier
BTW, any world class conductors hail from our neighbor to the north?
Not a flippant question, an honest one.
--
Mario Bernardi.
World class???
Does Kazuyoshi Akiyama count?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Brendan R. Wehrung
2005-10-11 04:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by George Murnu
[snip]
Post by graham
Post by Sacqueboutier
BTW, any world class conductors hail from our neighbor to the north?
Not a flippant question, an honest one.
--
Mario Bernardi.
World class???
Does Kazuyoshi Akiyama count?
Then we could count Georg Tintner.

Brendan
--
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-10-11 04:50:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by George Murnu
[snip]
Post by graham
Post by Sacqueboutier
BTW, any world class conductors hail from our neighbor to the north?
Not a flippant question, an honest one.
--
Mario Bernardi.
World class???
Does Kazuyoshi Akiyama count?
Then we could count Georg Tintner.
Or how about Wilfred Pelletier?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Sacqueboutier
2005-10-11 10:27:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Murnu
[snip]
Post by Sacqueboutier
BTW, any world class conductors hail from our neighbor to the north?
Not a flippant question, an honest one.
Post by George Murnu
Post by graham
--
Mario Bernardi.
World class???
Does Kazuyoshi Akiyama count?
Only if Seiji Ozawa counts as American.
I forgot one. Does Kent Nagano have a US gig?
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-10-11 14:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Sacqueboutier <***@nocomspamcast.net> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:2005101106273416807%
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by George Murnu
[snip]
Post by Sacqueboutier
BTW, any world class conductors hail from our neighbor to the north?
Not a flippant question, an honest one.
Post by George Murnu
Post by graham
--
Mario Bernardi.
World class???
Does Kazuyoshi Akiyama count?
Only if Seiji Ozawa counts as American.
I forgot one. Does Kent Nagano have a US gig?
Does being Music Director of the Los Angeles Opera count?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
j***@aol.com
2005-10-11 15:54:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:2005101106273416807%
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by George Murnu
[snip]
Post by Sacqueboutier
BTW, any world class conductors hail from our neighbor to the north?
Not a flippant question, an honest one.
Post by George Murnu
Post by graham
--
Mario Bernardi.
World class???
Does Kazuyoshi Akiyama count?
Only if Seiji Ozawa counts as American.
I forgot one. Does Kent Nagano have a US gig?
Does being Music Director of the Los Angeles Opera count?
Does Music Director of the Berkeley Symphony count?

--Jeff
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-10-11 19:24:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:2005101106273416807%
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by George Murnu
Post by Sacqueboutier
BTW, any world class conductors hail from our neighbor to the
north? Not a flippant question, an honest one.
Post by George Murnu
Post by graham
--
Mario Bernardi.
World class???
Does Kazuyoshi Akiyama count?
Only if Seiji Ozawa counts as American.
I forgot one. Does Kent Nagano have a US gig?
Does being Music Director of the Los Angeles Opera count?
Does Music Director of the Berkeley Symphony count?
Indeed, and that is his most enduring musical appointment!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Sacqueboutier
2005-10-11 17:44:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Sacqueboutier
I forgot one. Does Kent Nagano have a US gig?
Does being Music Director of the Los Angeles Opera count?
Sure. He should get an orchestra.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
j***@aol.com
2005-10-11 17:50:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Sacqueboutier
I forgot one. Does Kent Nagano have a US gig?
Does being Music Director of the Los Angeles Opera count?
Sure. He should get an orchestra.
He has one.

--Jeff
e***@aol.com
2005-10-11 17:52:02 UTC
Permalink
Appearantly he's quite the taskmaster nowadays; Chicago should take a
closer look at Nagano [who surely bests Franz W-M in terms of
compelling recordings procduced]
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-10-11 19:24:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@aol.com
Appearantly he's quite the taskmaster nowadays; Chicago should take a
closer look at Nagano [who surely bests Franz W-M in terms of
compelling recordings procduced]
I can see that. Perhaps it could happen, and he could just tiptoe away
from Montreal while they're still squabbling. Then he'd go on to greater
triumphs in the Windy City, while the Habs of the orchestral world would
have to turn to that guy with the hyphenated French name that I can't
recall, and shuffle back to obscurity. ;--)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
j***@aol.com
2005-10-12 13:24:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by e***@aol.com
Appearantly he's quite the taskmaster nowadays; Chicago should take a
closer look at Nagano [who surely bests Franz W-M in terms of
compelling recordings procduced]
I can see that. Perhaps it could happen, and he could just tiptoe away
from Montreal while they're still squabbling. Then he'd go on to greater
triumphs in the Windy City, while the Habs of the orchestral world would
have to turn to that guy with the hyphenated French name that I can't
recall, and shuffle back to obscurity. ;--)
Turning the Habs into the Hab-nots.

--Jeff

p.s. (The German with a "French" name, Franz-Paul Decker?)
Tom Deacon
2005-10-12 13:51:55 UTC
Permalink
On 10/12/05 9:24 AM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by e***@aol.com
Appearantly he's quite the taskmaster nowadays; Chicago should take a
closer look at Nagano [who surely bests Franz W-M in terms of
compelling recordings procduced]
I can see that. Perhaps it could happen, and he could just tiptoe away
from Montreal while they're still squabbling. Then he'd go on to greater
triumphs in the Windy City, while the Habs of the orchestral world would
have to turn to that guy with the hyphenated French name that I can't
recall, and shuffle back to obscurity. ;--)
Turning the Habs into the Hab-nots.
--Jeff
p.s. (The German with a "French" name, Franz-Paul Decker?)
Not German.

French.

Yannick Nezet-Sequin.

TD
j***@aol.com
2005-10-11 17:56:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Sacqueboutier
I forgot one. Does Kent Nagano have a US gig?
Does being Music Director of the Los Angeles Opera count?
Sure. He should get an orchestra.
He has one.

--Jeff
George Murnu
2005-10-11 02:02:17 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Sacqueboutier
There are fine conductors on both sides of the pond. Why so many
American orchestras think they have to get Europeans is beyond me.
It's getting better...started with Bernstein and now we have Levine,
MTT, Slatkin, Robertson, Maazel. Any others with "major" orchestras in
the US? Zinman went away.
Well, but who do you propose for the NSO? Conlon is the only one available
because all the conductors that you mentioned above are happy where they are
or looking for something better than the NSO int he case of Robertson. And
I don't think an up and coming would be good because the NSO still needs
first of all an orchestra builder to take it to the next step - and in
defense of Slatkin I have to say that he did improve the NSO, especially in
the early years of his tenure.

Perosnally I would love to have Fischer as music director but the big issue
for him is whether he will have the time and will for extra-muzical
activities keeping in mind that he will never give up his position in
Budapest.

Regards,

George
Post by Sacqueboutier
BTW, any world class conductors hail from our neighbor to the north?
Not a flippant question, an honest one.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
Sacqueboutier
2005-10-11 10:29:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Murnu
[snip]
Post by Sacqueboutier
There are fine conductors on both sides of the pond. Why so many
American orchestras think they have to get Europeans is beyond me.
It's getting better...started with Bernstein and now we have Levine,
MTT, Slatkin, Robertson, Maazel. Any others with "major" orchestras in
the US? Zinman went away.
Well, but who do you propose for the NSO? Conlon is the only one available
because all the conductors that you mentioned above are happy where they are
or looking for something better than the NSO int he case of Robertson. And
I don't think an up and coming would be good because the NSO still needs
first of all an orchestra builder to take it to the next step - and in
defense of Slatkin I have to say that he did improve the NSO, especially in
the early years of his tenure.
Perosnally I would love to have Fischer as music director but the big issue
for him is whether he will have the time and will for extra-muzical
activities keeping in mind that he will never give up his position in
Budapest.
\
I welcome Fischer as well, but I also think Conlon would be a good choice.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
j***@aol.com
2005-10-11 04:29:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/10/05 10:12 AM, in article
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by George Murnu
Don't worry, there's still hope! Ivan Fischer has just been named principal
guest conductor of the NSO in Washington, so this is great news as Fischer
is my favorite conductor of his generation. And besides as I understand it
Temirkanov will still guest conduct in Baltimore.
I've liked Temirkanov's recordings and think he was good in Balmer.
Good luck to him. Also good for Fischer. I look forward to his work
with the NSO, though I wish they would hire an American conductor. It
seems they can find more work in Europe than in the US. Silly, isn't
it?
Why silly?
This is (mostly) European music.
Of course American audiences always want the best and are willing and able
to pay for it.
Don't confuse artistic quality with parochial nationalism, Don.
TD
No surprise really to see Deacon once again misses the point.
There are fine conductors on both sides of the pond. Why so many
American orchestras think they have to get Europeans is beyond me.
It's getting better...started with Bernstein and now we have Levine,
MTT, Slatkin, Robertson, Maazel. Any others with "major" orchestras in
the US? Zinman went away.
Falletta. Spano. Schwarz. Litton and DePriest, until recently (why not
bring him back to DC, or Hugh Wolff, who was popular in his early days
there as well? And is DePriest available?}.

And Alsop, of course.

--Jeff
Eric Nagamine
2005-10-11 08:23:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
There are fine conductors on both sides of the pond. Why so many
American orchestras think they have to get Europeans is beyond me.
It's getting better...started with Bernstein and now we have Levine,
MTT, Slatkin, Robertson, Maazel. Any others with "major" orchestras in
the US? Zinman went away.
Falletta. Spano. Schwarz. Litton and DePriest, until recently (why not
bring him back to DC, or Hugh Wolff, who was popular in his early days
there as well? And is DePriest available?}.
And Alsop, of course.
--Jeff
I believe that DePriest hasn't been in the best health of late.
--
-----------
Aloha and Mahalo,

Eric Nagamine
http://home.hawaii.rr.com/mahlerb/broadcaststartpage.html
Bob Harper
2005-10-11 14:05:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Nagamine
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
There are fine conductors on both sides of the pond. Why so many
American orchestras think they have to get Europeans is beyond me.
It's getting better...started with Bernstein and now we have Levine,
MTT, Slatkin, Robertson, Maazel. Any others with "major" orchestras in
the US? Zinman went away.
Falletta. Spano. Schwarz. Litton and DePriest, until recently (why not
bring him back to DC, or Hugh Wolff, who was popular in his early days
there as well? And is DePriest available?}.
And Alsop, of course.
--Jeff
I believe that DePriest hasn't been in the best health of late.
When he was here in Portland, he suffered 'post-polio syndrome, and he
suffered kidney problems which necessitated a transplant. How he is
these days I don't really know.

Bob Harper
Michael Schaffer
2005-10-11 08:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/10/05 10:12 AM, in article
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by George Murnu
Don't worry, there's still hope! Ivan Fischer has just been named principal
guest conductor of the NSO in Washington, so this is great news as Fischer
is my favorite conductor of his generation. And besides as I understand it
Temirkanov will still guest conduct in Baltimore.
I've liked Temirkanov's recordings and think he was good in Balmer.
Good luck to him. Also good for Fischer. I look forward to his work
with the NSO, though I wish they would hire an American conductor. It
seems they can find more work in Europe than in the US. Silly, isn't
it?
Why silly?
This is (mostly) European music.
Of course American audiences always want the best and are willing and able
to pay for it.
Don't confuse artistic quality with parochial nationalism, Don.
TD
No surprise really to see Deacon once again misses the point.
There are fine conductors on both sides of the pond. Why so many
American orchestras think they have to get Europeans is beyond me.
It's getting better...started with Bernstein and now we have Levine,
MTT, Slatkin, Robertson, Maazel. Any others with "major" orchestras in
the US? Zinman went away.
Falletta. Spano. Schwarz. Litton and DePriest, until recently (why not
bring him back to DC, or Hugh Wolff, who was popular in his early days
there as well? And is DePriest available?}.
And Alsop, of course.
--Jeff
I am not sure if all of the above, including the ones named by
Sacqueboutier really qualify as "world class", but the concept is too
vague to define it anyway. Still, what about Kent Nagano? Nobody
mentioned him.
Sacqueboutier
2005-10-11 10:35:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
No surprise really to see Deacon once again misses the point.
There are fine conductors on both sides of the pond. Why so many
American orchestras think they have to get Europeans is beyond me.
It's getting better...started with Bernstein and now we have Levine,
MTT, Slatkin, Robertson, Maazel. Any others with "major" orchestras in
the US? Zinman went away.
Falletta. Spano. Schwarz. Litton and DePriest, until recently (why not
bring him back to DC, or Hugh Wolff, who was popular in his early days
there as well? And is DePriest available?}.
And Alsop, of course.
--Jeff
I am not sure if all of the above, including the ones named by
Sacqueboutier really qualify as "world class", but the concept is too
vague to define it anyway. Still, what about Kent Nagano? Nobody
mentioned him.
!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Bernstein, Levine, MTT, Slatkin, Maazel not world class? They have
been in demand throughout the world for years ('cept for Lenny of
course, who's dead). Robertson has been working abroad for many years
now and is in demand as guest conductor and MD of the StLSO. In an
earlier age, he would have been MUCH recorded by now. I would call
that world class.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Raymond Hall
2005-10-12 00:38:31 UTC
Permalink
Bernstein, Levine, MTT, Slatkin, Maazel not world class? They have been
in demand throughout the world for years ('cept for Lenny of course, who's
dead). Robertson has been working abroad for many years now and is in
demand as guest conductor and MD of the StLSO. In an earlier age, he
would have been MUCH recorded by now. I would call that world class.
Never forget (Sir) Andre Previn, and although he was born in Berlin, was a
citizen of the US from the age of about 9. Had the Pittsburgh, and a
disastrous LAPO appointment. Whatever anyone else thinks, he is a 100% CLASS
musician.

Ray H
Taree
j***@aol.com
2005-10-12 00:57:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond Hall
Bernstein, Levine, MTT, Slatkin, Maazel not world class? They have been
in demand throughout the world for years ('cept for Lenny of course, who's
dead). Robertson has been working abroad for many years now and is in
demand as guest conductor and MD of the StLSO. In an earlier age, he
would have been MUCH recorded by now. I would call that world class.
Never forget (Sir) Andre Previn, and although he was born in Berlin, was a
citizen of the US from the age of about 9. Had the Pittsburgh, and a
disastrous LAPO appointment. Whatever anyone else thinks, he is a 100% CLASS
musician.
Right you are. After all these years, it is still Previn's Brahms that
stands out among the many I've heard. All the more remarkable
considering he was working with Staatskapelle Dresden, which TD tells
us is a second rate ensemble.

--Jeff
Tom Deacon
2005-10-12 10:00:57 UTC
Permalink
On 10/11/05 8:57 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Right you are. After all these years, it is still Previn's Brahms that
stands out among the many I've heard. All the more remarkable
considering he was working with Staatskapelle Dresden, which TD tells
us is a second rate ensemble.
If Dresden is a "first rate" ensemble, you have no room to correctly
identify the superior qualities of Berlin and Vienna.

Three stars are sufficient. Five only lead to confusion.

TD
j***@aol.com
2005-10-12 13:34:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 8:57 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Right you are. After all these years, it is still Previn's Brahms that
stands out among the many I've heard. All the more remarkable
considering he was working with Staatskapelle Dresden, which TD tells
us is a second rate ensemble.
If Dresden is a "first rate" ensemble, you have no room to correctly
identify the superior qualities of Berlin and Vienna.
Three stars are sufficient. Five only lead to confusion.
TD
There you have it. Three stars are sufficient for you. Five stars
confuse you.

For the rest of us, who hear and appreciate the subtleties, any star
system is unintelligent if it ranks Dresden as a "second-rate
ensemble".

--Jeff
Tom Deacon
2005-10-12 13:55:15 UTC
Permalink
On 10/12/05 9:34 AM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 8:57 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Right you are. After all these years, it is still Previn's Brahms that
stands out among the many I've heard. All the more remarkable
considering he was working with Staatskapelle Dresden, which TD tells
us is a second rate ensemble.
If Dresden is a "first rate" ensemble, you have no room to correctly
identify the superior qualities of Berlin and Vienna.
Three stars are sufficient. Five only lead to confusion.
TD
There you have it. Three stars are sufficient for you. Five stars
confuse you.
For the rest of us, who hear and appreciate the subtleties, any star
system is unintelligent if it ranks Dresden as a "second-rate
ensemble".
Sorry you are not sufficiently intelligent to understand the system of three
stars. It works for Michelin-starred restaurants in France. The Tour
d'Argent has two stars, incidentally. Lameloise has three.

Thing is, I am not as generous with my *** as the Michelin tasters. I only
give two orchestras those coveted three stars.

Which is not to say they aren't good. Simply put, "ils ne valent pas le
voyage".

TD
j***@aol.com
2005-10-12 20:08:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 9:34 AM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 8:57 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Right you are. After all these years, it is still Previn's Brahms that
stands out among the many I've heard. All the more remarkable
considering he was working with Staatskapelle Dresden, which TD tells
us is a second rate ensemble.
If Dresden is a "first rate" ensemble, you have no room to correctly
identify the superior qualities of Berlin and Vienna.
Three stars are sufficient. Five only lead to confusion.
TD
There you have it. Three stars are sufficient for you. Five stars
confuse you.
For the rest of us, who hear and appreciate the subtleties, any star
system is unintelligent if it ranks Dresden as a "second-rate
ensemble".
Sorry you are not sufficiently intelligent to understand the system of three
stars. It works for Michelin-starred restaurants in France. The Tour
d'Argent has two stars, incidentally. Lameloise has three.
Thing is, I am not as generous with my *** as the Michelin tasters. I only
give two orchestras those coveted three stars.
If Michelin issued three stars to only two restaurants in the world,
they'd be a laughingstock of the culinary world. As it is, they name 50
to the top tier in Europe.

Your lack of generosity is given. It is your inability to establish the
pretense of meaningful standards that invalidates your system. The
comparison with Michelin demonstrates this: stars are no good without
intelligent application and distribution of the ratings.

--Jeff
Tom Deacon
2005-10-12 21:04:37 UTC
Permalink
On 10/12/05 4:08 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 9:34 AM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 8:57 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Right you are. After all these years, it is still Previn's Brahms that
stands out among the many I've heard. All the more remarkable
considering he was working with Staatskapelle Dresden, which TD tells
us is a second rate ensemble.
If Dresden is a "first rate" ensemble, you have no room to correctly
identify the superior qualities of Berlin and Vienna.
Three stars are sufficient. Five only lead to confusion.
TD
There you have it. Three stars are sufficient for you. Five stars
confuse you.
For the rest of us, who hear and appreciate the subtleties, any star
system is unintelligent if it ranks Dresden as a "second-rate
ensemble".
Sorry you are not sufficiently intelligent to understand the system of three
stars. It works for Michelin-starred restaurants in France. The Tour
d'Argent has two stars, incidentally. Lameloise has three.
Thing is, I am not as generous with my *** as the Michelin tasters. I only
give two orchestras those coveted three stars.
If Michelin issued three stars to only two restaurants in the world,
they'd be a laughingstock of the culinary world. As it is, they name 50
to the top tier in Europe.
Please name them!

There are barely 16 in France according to last count.

But perhaps you're confusing the crossed knives and spoons, which only
indicate luxury, not cuisine.

TD
j***@aol.com
2005-10-12 22:52:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 4:08 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 9:34 AM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 8:57 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Right you are. After all these years, it is still Previn's Brahms that
stands out among the many I've heard. All the more remarkable
considering he was working with Staatskapelle Dresden, which TD tells
us is a second rate ensemble.
If Dresden is a "first rate" ensemble, you have no room to correctly
identify the superior qualities of Berlin and Vienna.
Three stars are sufficient. Five only lead to confusion.
TD
There you have it. Three stars are sufficient for you. Five stars
confuse you.
For the rest of us, who hear and appreciate the subtleties, any star
system is unintelligent if it ranks Dresden as a "second-rate
ensemble".
Sorry you are not sufficiently intelligent to understand the system of three
stars. It works for Michelin-starred restaurants in France. The Tour
d'Argent has two stars, incidentally. Lameloise has three.
Thing is, I am not as generous with my *** as the Michelin tasters. I only
give two orchestras those coveted three stars.
If Michelin issued three stars to only two restaurants in the world,
they'd be a laughingstock of the culinary world. As it is, they name 50
to the top tier in Europe.
Please name them!
There are barely 16 in France according to last count.
But perhaps you're confusing the crossed knives and spoons, which only
indicate luxury, not cuisine.
TD
A delicious thought!

In Brussels: Comme Chez Soi
Bruges: Hof van Cleve
Rotterdam: Park Heuvel (promoted not long ago)
Zwolle: de Librije (new in 2004)
Paris: Grand Vefour
L'Ambroisie
Arpege
Le Cinq
Taillevent
Lucas Carton
Ledoyen (any relation to the lovely Virginia?)
Plaza Athenee
Guy Savoy
Pierre Gagnaire
Alain Ducasse
in Joigny: Cote St. Jacques
Saulieu: Cote d'Or (is there a city that doesn't have one?)
Eugenie Les Bains: Les Pres d'Eugenie
Lyons: Paul Bocuse
Veyrier du lac: La Maison de Mark Veyrat (was another name)
Megeve: Ferme de mon Pere
Roanne: Troigros
St Bonnet le Froid: Clos des Cimes
Vonnas Georges Blanc
Monte Carlo: Louis XV (back after a two star hiatus)
Strasbourg: Au Crocodile
Strasbourg: Buerehiesel
Illhaeusern: Auberge de l'Ill
Baerenthal: L'Arnsbourg
Laguiole: Michel Bras
Vezelay: L'Esperance
Puymirol: Les Loges de l'Aubergade
Bergisch Gladbach: Dieter Muller
and Vendome
Wittlich: Waldhotel Sonnora
Dusseldorf: Im Schiffchen
near Munchen: Restaurant Heinz Winkler
Baiersbronn: Schwartzwaldstube
Florence: Enotecca Piniciorri
Milan: Dal Pescatore (fish and lentils?)
Milan: Al Sorriso
near Venice: Calandre
Rosa: El Bulli
Barcelona: El Raco de Can Fabes (highest rated canned food ever)
San Sebastian: Arzak
San Sebastian: Martin Berasategui
Switzerland: Hotel de Ville in Crissier
Brent: Le Pont de Brent
UK: Bray: Waterside Inn
Bray: Fat Duck
London: Gordon Ramsay

On this list what are Vienna and Berlin? Chopped liver?
I must run out and get myself a Big Mac right away. This is making me
hungry.

--Jeff
Tom Deacon
2005-10-13 00:54:11 UTC
Permalink
On 10/12/05 6:52 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 4:08 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 9:34 AM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 8:57 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Right you are. After all these years, it is still Previn's Brahms that
stands out among the many I've heard. All the more remarkable
considering he was working with Staatskapelle Dresden, which TD tells
us is a second rate ensemble.
If Dresden is a "first rate" ensemble, you have no room to correctly
identify the superior qualities of Berlin and Vienna.
Three stars are sufficient. Five only lead to confusion.
TD
There you have it. Three stars are sufficient for you. Five stars
confuse you.
For the rest of us, who hear and appreciate the subtleties, any star
system is unintelligent if it ranks Dresden as a "second-rate
ensemble".
Sorry you are not sufficiently intelligent to understand the system of three
stars. It works for Michelin-starred restaurants in France. The Tour
d'Argent has two stars, incidentally. Lameloise has three.
Thing is, I am not as generous with my *** as the Michelin tasters. I only
give two orchestras those coveted three stars.
If Michelin issued three stars to only two restaurants in the world,
they'd be a laughingstock of the culinary world. As it is, they name 50
to the top tier in Europe.
Please name them!
There are barely 16 in France according to last count.
But perhaps you're confusing the crossed knives and spoons, which only
indicate luxury, not cuisine.
TD
A delicious thought!
In Brussels: Comme Chez Soi
Bruges: Hof van Cleve
Rotterdam: Park Heuvel (promoted not long ago)
Zwolle: de Librije (new in 2004)
Paris: Grand Vefour
L'Ambroisie
Arpege
Le Cinq
Taillevent
Lucas Carton
Ledoyen (any relation to the lovely Virginia?)
Plaza Athenee
Guy Savoy
Pierre Gagnaire
Alain Ducasse
in Joigny: Cote St. Jacques
Saulieu: Cote d'Or (is there a city that doesn't have one?)
Eugenie Les Bains: Les Pres d'Eugenie
Lyons: Paul Bocuse
Veyrier du lac: La Maison de Mark Veyrat (was another name)
Megeve: Ferme de mon Pere
Roanne: Troigros
St Bonnet le Froid: Clos des Cimes
Vonnas Georges Blanc
Monte Carlo: Louis XV (back after a two star hiatus)
Strasbourg: Au Crocodile
Strasbourg: Buerehiesel
Illhaeusern: Auberge de l'Ill
Baerenthal: L'Arnsbourg
Laguiole: Michel Bras
Vezelay: L'Esperance
Puymirol: Les Loges de l'Aubergade
Bergisch Gladbach: Dieter Muller
and Vendome
Wittlich: Waldhotel Sonnora
Dusseldorf: Im Schiffchen
near Munchen: Restaurant Heinz Winkler
Baiersbronn: Schwartzwaldstube
Florence: Enotecca Piniciorri
Milan: Dal Pescatore (fish and lentils?)
Milan: Al Sorriso
near Venice: Calandre
Rosa: El Bulli
Barcelona: El Raco de Can Fabes (highest rated canned food ever)
San Sebastian: Arzak
San Sebastian: Martin Berasategui
Switzerland: Hotel de Ville in Crissier
Brent: Le Pont de Brent
UK: Bray: Waterside Inn
Bray: Fat Duck
London: Gordon Ramsay
On this list what are Vienna and Berlin? Chopped liver?
That's what they probably do well.
Post by j***@aol.com
I must run out and get myself a Big Mac right away. This is making me
hungry.
I have eaten in most of those establishments. And my wallet shows the
effects!!!

There are some distinctions which must be made, however.

There are about 16 establishments in France worth three stars.

The others are local wannabes, established by the local Michelin
establishment in each territory. Germany cannot really claim to have a
cuisine worth three stars. Spain also.

I haven't been to El Bulli, which is apparently worth it, but Arzak is no
Lameloise. Trust me on that. And I say that in spite of the "ortolan" I had
there.

Incidentally Lucas Carton is no longer a three star establishment. Senderens
has given up the struggle and decided to turn that wonderful place into a
bistro, which is, of course, how it began life. I am sure it's still
wonderful, but he has refused ANY stars at all.

TD
j***@aol.com
2005-10-13 01:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 6:52 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 4:08 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 9:34 AM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 8:57 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Right you are. After all these years, it is still Previn's Brahms that
stands out among the many I've heard. All the more remarkable
considering he was working with Staatskapelle Dresden, which TD tells
us is a second rate ensemble.
If Dresden is a "first rate" ensemble, you have no room to correctly
identify the superior qualities of Berlin and Vienna.
Three stars are sufficient. Five only lead to confusion.
TD
There you have it. Three stars are sufficient for you. Five stars
confuse you.
For the rest of us, who hear and appreciate the subtleties, any star
system is unintelligent if it ranks Dresden as a "second-rate
ensemble".
Sorry you are not sufficiently intelligent to understand the system of three
stars. It works for Michelin-starred restaurants in France. The Tour
d'Argent has two stars, incidentally. Lameloise has three.
Thing is, I am not as generous with my *** as the Michelin tasters. I only
give two orchestras those coveted three stars.
If Michelin issued three stars to only two restaurants in the world,
they'd be a laughingstock of the culinary world. As it is, they name 50
to the top tier in Europe.
Please name them!
There are barely 16 in France according to last count.
But perhaps you're confusing the crossed knives and spoons, which only
indicate luxury, not cuisine.
TD
A delicious thought!
In Brussels: Comme Chez Soi
Bruges: Hof van Cleve
Rotterdam: Park Heuvel (promoted not long ago)
Zwolle: de Librije (new in 2004)
Paris: Grand Vefour
L'Ambroisie
Arpege
Le Cinq
Taillevent
Lucas Carton
Ledoyen (any relation to the lovely Virginia?)
Plaza Athenee
Guy Savoy
Pierre Gagnaire
Alain Ducasse
in Joigny: Cote St. Jacques
Saulieu: Cote d'Or (is there a city that doesn't have one?)
Eugenie Les Bains: Les Pres d'Eugenie
Lyons: Paul Bocuse
Veyrier du lac: La Maison de Mark Veyrat (was another name)
Megeve: Ferme de mon Pere
Roanne: Troigros
St Bonnet le Froid: Clos des Cimes
Vonnas Georges Blanc
Monte Carlo: Louis XV (back after a two star hiatus)
Strasbourg: Au Crocodile
Strasbourg: Buerehiesel
Illhaeusern: Auberge de l'Ill
Baerenthal: L'Arnsbourg
Laguiole: Michel Bras
Vezelay: L'Esperance
Puymirol: Les Loges de l'Aubergade
Bergisch Gladbach: Dieter Muller
and Vendome
Wittlich: Waldhotel Sonnora
Dusseldorf: Im Schiffchen
near Munchen: Restaurant Heinz Winkler
Baiersbronn: Schwartzwaldstube
Florence: Enotecca Piniciorri
Milan: Dal Pescatore (fish and lentils?)
Milan: Al Sorriso
near Venice: Calandre
Rosa: El Bulli
Barcelona: El Raco de Can Fabes (highest rated canned food ever)
San Sebastian: Arzak
San Sebastian: Martin Berasategui
Switzerland: Hotel de Ville in Crissier
Brent: Le Pont de Brent
UK: Bray: Waterside Inn
Bray: Fat Duck
London: Gordon Ramsay
On this list what are Vienna and Berlin? Chopped liver?
That's what they probably do well.
Post by j***@aol.com
I must run out and get myself a Big Mac right away. This is making me
hungry.
I have eaten in most of those establishments. And my wallet shows the
effects!!!
As long as your arteries are not fattened in the process, a slimmer
wallet is a badge of honor.
Post by Tom Deacon
There are some distinctions which must be made, however.
There are about 16 establishments in France worth three stars.
The marshmallow man has indulged in serious inflation in the last 20
years (which tire salesmen are wont to do), and not just outside
France. The number of three-star establishments has more than doubled
overall, but do any of them have a tasty lettuce chicken like at my
beloved House of Nanking? I guess I am more of a bib gourmet (no, not
talking about bib lettuce here)--I still don't understand why people
make reservations a year in advance just to have their clothes washed
at that French laundromat up in the Wine Country.


--Jeff
Michael Schaffer
2005-10-13 07:03:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 6:52 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 4:08 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 9:34 AM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 8:57 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Right you are. After all these years, it is still Previn's Brahms that
stands out among the many I've heard. All the more remarkable
considering he was working with Staatskapelle Dresden, which TD tells
us is a second rate ensemble.
If Dresden is a "first rate" ensemble, you have no room to correctly
identify the superior qualities of Berlin and Vienna.
Three stars are sufficient. Five only lead to confusion.
TD
There you have it. Three stars are sufficient for you. Five stars
confuse you.
For the rest of us, who hear and appreciate the subtleties, any star
system is unintelligent if it ranks Dresden as a "second-rate
ensemble".
Sorry you are not sufficiently intelligent to understand the system of three
stars. It works for Michelin-starred restaurants in France. The Tour
d'Argent has two stars, incidentally. Lameloise has three.
Thing is, I am not as generous with my *** as the Michelin tasters. I only
give two orchestras those coveted three stars.
If Michelin issued three stars to only two restaurants in the world,
they'd be a laughingstock of the culinary world. As it is, they name 50
to the top tier in Europe.
Please name them!
There are barely 16 in France according to last count.
But perhaps you're confusing the crossed knives and spoons, which only
indicate luxury, not cuisine.
TD
A delicious thought!
In Brussels: Comme Chez Soi
Bruges: Hof van Cleve
Rotterdam: Park Heuvel (promoted not long ago)
Zwolle: de Librije (new in 2004)
Paris: Grand Vefour
L'Ambroisie
Arpege
Le Cinq
Taillevent
Lucas Carton
Ledoyen (any relation to the lovely Virginia?)
Plaza Athenee
Guy Savoy
Pierre Gagnaire
Alain Ducasse
in Joigny: Cote St. Jacques
Saulieu: Cote d'Or (is there a city that doesn't have one?)
Eugenie Les Bains: Les Pres d'Eugenie
Lyons: Paul Bocuse
Veyrier du lac: La Maison de Mark Veyrat (was another name)
Megeve: Ferme de mon Pere
Roanne: Troigros
St Bonnet le Froid: Clos des Cimes
Vonnas Georges Blanc
Monte Carlo: Louis XV (back after a two star hiatus)
Strasbourg: Au Crocodile
Strasbourg: Buerehiesel
Illhaeusern: Auberge de l'Ill
Baerenthal: L'Arnsbourg
Laguiole: Michel Bras
Vezelay: L'Esperance
Puymirol: Les Loges de l'Aubergade
Bergisch Gladbach: Dieter Muller
and Vendome
Wittlich: Waldhotel Sonnora
Dusseldorf: Im Schiffchen
near Munchen: Restaurant Heinz Winkler
Baiersbronn: Schwartzwaldstube
Florence: Enotecca Piniciorri
Milan: Dal Pescatore (fish and lentils?)
Milan: Al Sorriso
near Venice: Calandre
Rosa: El Bulli
Barcelona: El Raco de Can Fabes (highest rated canned food ever)
San Sebastian: Arzak
San Sebastian: Martin Berasategui
Switzerland: Hotel de Ville in Crissier
Brent: Le Pont de Brent
UK: Bray: Waterside Inn
Bray: Fat Duck
London: Gordon Ramsay
On this list what are Vienna and Berlin? Chopped liver?
That's what they probably do well.
Post by j***@aol.com
I must run out and get myself a Big Mac right away. This is making me
hungry.
I have eaten in most of those establishments. And my wallet shows the
effects!!!
As long as your arteries are not fattened in the process, a slimmer
wallet is a badge of honor.
Post by Tom Deacon
There are some distinctions which must be made, however.
There are about 16 establishments in France worth three stars.
The marshmallow man has indulged in serious inflation in the last 20
years (which tire salesmen are wont to do), and not just outside
France. The number of three-star establishments has more than doubled
overall, but do any of them have a tasty lettuce chicken like at my
beloved House of Nanking? I guess I am more of a bib gourmet (no, not
talking about bib lettuce here)--I still don't understand why people
make reservations a year in advance just to have their clothes washed
at that French laundromat up in the Wine Country.
--Jeff
I see what you mean. When my family was here visiting recently, we went
to some upscale and highly recommended restaurants in San Diego and
Beverly Hills. My brother really is into the fine dining stuff and all
that. Food was OK, but I am pretty sure I could have cooked the grilled
salmon with a little (actually very little) vegetable on the side just
as good for a fraction of the price (which was $39 or so). On the other
hand, the other day I went to a local Chinese place ( a family operated
restaurant) which served a lot of stuff I couldn't have cooked myself
for comparatively little money, and it tasted really great. I guess
it's more a class separation thing ("look, we can afford this and they
can't").
j***@aol.com
2005-10-13 11:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 6:52 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 4:08 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 9:34 AM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 8:57 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Right you are. After all these years, it is still Previn's Brahms that
stands out among the many I've heard. All the more remarkable
considering he was working with Staatskapelle Dresden, which TD tells
us is a second rate ensemble.
If Dresden is a "first rate" ensemble, you have no room to correctly
identify the superior qualities of Berlin and Vienna.
Three stars are sufficient. Five only lead to confusion.
TD
There you have it. Three stars are sufficient for you. Five stars
confuse you.
For the rest of us, who hear and appreciate the subtleties, any star
system is unintelligent if it ranks Dresden as a "second-rate
ensemble".
Sorry you are not sufficiently intelligent to understand the system of
three
stars. It works for Michelin-starred restaurants in France. The Tour
d'Argent has two stars, incidentally. Lameloise has three.
Thing is, I am not as generous with my *** as the Michelin tasters. I only
give two orchestras those coveted three stars.
If Michelin issued three stars to only two restaurants in the world,
they'd be a laughingstock of the culinary world. As it is, they name 50
to the top tier in Europe.
Please name them!
There are barely 16 in France according to last count.
But perhaps you're confusing the crossed knives and spoons, which only
indicate luxury, not cuisine.
TD
A delicious thought!
In Brussels: Comme Chez Soi
Bruges: Hof van Cleve
Rotterdam: Park Heuvel (promoted not long ago)
Zwolle: de Librije (new in 2004)
Paris: Grand Vefour
L'Ambroisie
Arpege
Le Cinq
Taillevent
Lucas Carton
Ledoyen (any relation to the lovely Virginia?)
Plaza Athenee
Guy Savoy
Pierre Gagnaire
Alain Ducasse
in Joigny: Cote St. Jacques
Saulieu: Cote d'Or (is there a city that doesn't have one?)
Eugenie Les Bains: Les Pres d'Eugenie
Lyons: Paul Bocuse
Veyrier du lac: La Maison de Mark Veyrat (was another name)
Megeve: Ferme de mon Pere
Roanne: Troigros
St Bonnet le Froid: Clos des Cimes
Vonnas Georges Blanc
Monte Carlo: Louis XV (back after a two star hiatus)
Strasbourg: Au Crocodile
Strasbourg: Buerehiesel
Illhaeusern: Auberge de l'Ill
Baerenthal: L'Arnsbourg
Laguiole: Michel Bras
Vezelay: L'Esperance
Puymirol: Les Loges de l'Aubergade
Bergisch Gladbach: Dieter Muller
and Vendome
Wittlich: Waldhotel Sonnora
Dusseldorf: Im Schiffchen
near Munchen: Restaurant Heinz Winkler
Baiersbronn: Schwartzwaldstube
Florence: Enotecca Piniciorri
Milan: Dal Pescatore (fish and lentils?)
Milan: Al Sorriso
near Venice: Calandre
Rosa: El Bulli
Barcelona: El Raco de Can Fabes (highest rated canned food ever)
San Sebastian: Arzak
San Sebastian: Martin Berasategui
Switzerland: Hotel de Ville in Crissier
Brent: Le Pont de Brent
UK: Bray: Waterside Inn
Bray: Fat Duck
London: Gordon Ramsay
On this list what are Vienna and Berlin? Chopped liver?
That's what they probably do well.
Post by j***@aol.com
I must run out and get myself a Big Mac right away. This is making me
hungry.
I have eaten in most of those establishments. And my wallet shows the
effects!!!
As long as your arteries are not fattened in the process, a slimmer
wallet is a badge of honor.
Post by Tom Deacon
There are some distinctions which must be made, however.
There are about 16 establishments in France worth three stars.
The marshmallow man has indulged in serious inflation in the last 20
years (which tire salesmen are wont to do), and not just outside
France. The number of three-star establishments has more than doubled
overall, but do any of them have a tasty lettuce chicken like at my
beloved House of Nanking? I guess I am more of a bib gourmet (no, not
talking about bib lettuce here)--I still don't understand why people
make reservations a year in advance just to have their clothes washed
at that French laundromat up in the Wine Country.
--Jeff
I see what you mean. When my family was here visiting recently, we went
to some upscale and highly recommended restaurants in San Diego and
Beverly Hills. My brother really is into the fine dining stuff and all
that. Food was OK, but I am pretty sure I could have cooked the grilled
salmon with a little (actually very little) vegetable on the side just
as good for a fraction of the price (which was $39 or so). On the other
hand, the other day I went to a local Chinese place ( a family operated
restaurant) which served a lot of stuff I couldn't have cooked myself
for comparatively little money, and it tasted really great. I guess
it's more a class separation thing ("look, we can afford this and they
can't").
For some people it is a class thing, but I think for some it honestly
is a taste thing, and from what we know about TD, for instance, I'm
certain he's in the latter camp. I've had a few glimpses into fine
cooking and I can safely say I would appreciate a three-star meal, but
not to the extent that money is no object. Money ought not to be an
obstacle in the pursuit of an earthly pleasure as that, but for me the
earthly pleasures of a good Chinese or Thai or Ethiopian or French meal
exist at a fraction of the cost of a three-star French-style meal. And
I prefer or value most the restaurant meals that seem impossible in my
own kitchen.

My record "collecting" follows a similar pattern, with little interest
in pursuing the perfect pressing or the latest remastering or the one
performance at all costs, though in a rare exception, the other day I
bid some insane amount to win a silly CD on eBay. I'm sure no one else
would have been crazy enough to want it so much, but I had my reasons
and for me, it was one of those inexplicable (musical) cravings that
had to be satisfied and could not be justified except as an earthly
pleasure for which no price could be determined. I do not begrudge
others that feeling, even if it is culinary. They live well who always
seek pleasure unfettered by cost. Whether they burn in eternal
damnation--or merely drift onto the dole--afterward remains to be seen.

--Jeff

Sacqueboutier
2005-10-11 10:31:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Falletta. Spano. Schwarz. Litton and DePriest, until recently (why not
bring him back to DC, or Hugh Wolff, who was popular in his early days
there as well? And is DePriest available?}.
And Alsop, of course.
--Jeff
Spano perhaps. The jury is still out on Falletta. I've played with
several colleagues who have played under her. They claim the emperor
has no clothes. Schwarz is fine where he is, thank you. Now,
Litton...I think he's the ticket for the NSO.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
j***@aol.com
2005-10-11 16:14:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Falletta. Spano. Schwarz. Litton and DePriest, until recently (why not
bring him back to DC, or Hugh Wolff, who was popular in his early days
there as well? And is DePriest available?}.
And Alsop, of course.
--Jeff
Spano perhaps. The jury is still out on Falletta. I've played with
several colleagues who have played under her. They claim the emperor
has no clothes. Schwarz is fine where he is, thank you. Now,
Litton...I think he's the ticket for the NSO.
Whether or not you like her work, Falletta is the music director of a
major orchestra--or at least an orchestra that was at one time as major
as Baltimore or Washington (and I'm not counting Long Beach, which was
really not a bad gig at all), so she's one of the answers you were
looking for. Nor is there a "perhaps" about Spano--Atlanta is a major
indeed, and so is he. Seattle plays very well for Schwarz, even if I
would never wish him on the NSO. I agree with you that Litton is a hot
ticket for the NSO, though I think the townies wouldn't mind seeing
Hugh Wolff back, either. DePriest would have been ideal, in good
health. Great conductor, great reputation.

By the way, this is Michael Christie's first season with the Phoenix
Symphony. He was born in Buffalo in 1974, which makes MTT seem like a
real old fogey, doesn't it?

And the Utah Symphony is led by a guy from Poughkeepsie.

--Jeff
Sacqueboutier
2005-10-11 17:47:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Falletta. Spano. Schwarz. Litton and DePriest, until recently (why not
bring him back to DC, or Hugh Wolff, who was popular in his early days
there as well? And is DePriest available?}.
And Alsop, of course.
--Jeff
Spano perhaps. The jury is still out on Falletta. I've played with
several colleagues who have played under her. They claim the emperor
has no clothes. Schwarz is fine where he is, thank you. Now,
Litton...I think he's the ticket for the NSO.
Whether or not you like her work, Falletta is the music director of a
major orchestra--or at least an orchestra that was at one time as major
as Baltimore or Washington (and I'm not counting Long Beach, which was
really not a bad gig at all), so she's one of the answers you were
looking for.
No, she isn't. While Buffalo is a fine orchestra, it is hardly world class.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
j***@aol.com
2005-10-11 20:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Falletta. Spano. Schwarz. Litton and DePriest, until recently (why not
bring him back to DC, or Hugh Wolff, who was popular in his early days
there as well? And is DePriest available?}.
And Alsop, of course.
--Jeff
Spano perhaps. The jury is still out on Falletta. I've played with
several colleagues who have played under her. They claim the emperor
has no clothes. Schwarz is fine where he is, thank you. Now,
Litton...I think he's the ticket for the NSO.
Whether or not you like her work, Falletta is the music director of a
major orchestra--or at least an orchestra that was at one time as major
as Baltimore or Washington (and I'm not counting Long Beach, which was
really not a bad gig at all), so she's one of the answers you were
looking for.
No, she isn't. While Buffalo is a fine orchestra, it is hardly world class.
With all due respect, you didn't ask for "world-class" orchestras, you
asked, "Any others with "major" orchestras in the US? Zinman went
away."

Since Baltimore was defined this way as "major," certainly (based on
their excellent recent live recording of Zemlinsky, not to mention
their history), Buffalo still seems to be a "major" in terms of
financial and musical qualifications.

Now...as for "world class", that was Michael Schaeffer's own framing of
your question. And since neither Dresden, Ohio, nor Dresden, Tennessee,
seems to have a major orchestra (not sure about Dresden, Kansas or
Dresden, Maine!), I am dubious that any orchestra in the U.S.
qualifies, by his estimation.

Berkeley is not a "major," but that doesn't negate the obvious fact
that Nagano already has a U.S. orchestral job and has had one for
decades.

--Jeff
Tom Deacon
2005-10-11 22:00:54 UTC
Permalink
On 10/11/05 4:02 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Falletta. Spano. Schwarz. Litton and DePriest, until recently (why not
bring him back to DC, or Hugh Wolff, who was popular in his early days
there as well? And is DePriest available?}.
And Alsop, of course.
--Jeff
Spano perhaps. The jury is still out on Falletta. I've played with
several colleagues who have played under her. They claim the emperor
has no clothes. Schwarz is fine where he is, thank you. Now,
Litton...I think he's the ticket for the NSO.
Whether or not you like her work, Falletta is the music director of a
major orchestra--or at least an orchestra that was at one time as major
as Baltimore or Washington (and I'm not counting Long Beach, which was
really not a bad gig at all), so she's one of the answers you were
looking for.
No, she isn't. While Buffalo is a fine orchestra, it is hardly world class.
With all due respect, you didn't ask for "world-class" orchestras, you
asked, "Any others with "major" orchestras in the US? Zinman went
away."
There are only two world class orchestras in my opinion.

One is in Berlin. The other is in Vienna.

The "big five" are second class.

The rest clearly third.

TD
Todd Schurk
2005-10-11 22:17:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 4:02 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Falletta. Spano. Schwarz. Litton and DePriest, until recently (why not
bring him back to DC, or Hugh Wolff, who was popular in his early days
there as well? And is DePriest available?}.
And Alsop, of course.
--Jeff
Spano perhaps. The jury is still out on Falletta. I've played with
several colleagues who have played under her. They claim the emperor
has no clothes. Schwarz is fine where he is, thank you. Now,
Litton...I think he's the ticket for the NSO.
Whether or not you like her work, Falletta is the music director of a
major orchestra--or at least an orchestra that was at one time as major
as Baltimore or Washington (and I'm not counting Long Beach, which was
really not a bad gig at all), so she's one of the answers you were
looking for.
No, she isn't. While Buffalo is a fine orchestra, it is hardly world class.
With all due respect, you didn't ask for "world-class" orchestras, you
asked, "Any others with "major" orchestras in the US? Zinman went
away."
There are only two world class orchestras in my opinion.
One is in Berlin. The other is in Vienna.
The "big five" are second class.
The rest clearly third.
TD
Wrong TD. One is in Amsterdam. Equal to Berlin/Vienna,and with a more
distinctive sound-and it's not just that Hall either.
Tom Deacon
2005-10-11 23:56:58 UTC
Permalink
On 10/11/05 6:17 PM, in article
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 4:02 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Falletta. Spano. Schwarz. Litton and DePriest, until recently (why not
bring him back to DC, or Hugh Wolff, who was popular in his early days
there as well? And is DePriest available?}.
And Alsop, of course.
--Jeff
Spano perhaps. The jury is still out on Falletta. I've played with
several colleagues who have played under her. They claim the emperor
has no clothes. Schwarz is fine where he is, thank you. Now,
Litton...I think he's the ticket for the NSO.
Whether or not you like her work, Falletta is the music director of a
major orchestra--or at least an orchestra that was at one time as major
as Baltimore or Washington (and I'm not counting Long Beach, which was
really not a bad gig at all), so she's one of the answers you were
looking for.
No, she isn't. While Buffalo is a fine orchestra, it is hardly world class.
With all due respect, you didn't ask for "world-class" orchestras, you
asked, "Any others with "major" orchestras in the US? Zinman went
away."
There are only two world class orchestras in my opinion.
One is in Berlin. The other is in Vienna.
The "big five" are second class.
The rest clearly third.
TD
Wrong TD. One is in Amsterdam. Equal to Berlin/Vienna,and with a more
distinctive sound-and it's not just that Hall either.
Well, having spent eight years with that ensemble, I would have do disagree
with you.

Good, but not "world class" in the manner of Berlin or Vienna.

Incidentally, I heard all three in the Mahler Festival a number of years ago
now. Vienna and Berlin outshone everything else.

TD
Todd Schurk
2005-10-12 01:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 6:17 PM, in article
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 4:02 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Falletta. Spano. Schwarz. Litton and DePriest, until recently (why not
bring him back to DC, or Hugh Wolff, who was popular in his early days
there as well? And is DePriest available?}.
And Alsop, of course.
--Jeff
Spano perhaps. The jury is still out on Falletta. I've played with
several colleagues who have played under her. They claim the emperor
has no clothes. Schwarz is fine where he is, thank you. Now,
Litton...I think he's the ticket for the NSO.
Whether or not you like her work, Falletta is the music director of a
major orchestra--or at least an orchestra that was at one time as major
as Baltimore or Washington (and I'm not counting Long Beach, which was
really not a bad gig at all), so she's one of the answers you were
looking for.
No, she isn't. While Buffalo is a fine orchestra, it is hardly world class.
With all due respect, you didn't ask for "world-class" orchestras, you
asked, "Any others with "major" orchestras in the US? Zinman went
away."
There are only two world class orchestras in my opinion.
One is in Berlin. The other is in Vienna.
The "big five" are second class.
The rest clearly third.
TD
Wrong TD. One is in Amsterdam. Equal to Berlin/Vienna,and with a more
distinctive sound-and it's not just that Hall either.
Well, having spent eight years with that ensemble, I would have do disagree
with you.
Good, but not "world class" in the manner of Berlin or Vienna.
Incidentally, I heard all three in the Mahler Festival a number of years ago
now. Vienna and Berlin outshone everything else.
TD
Anyway, regardless of your opinion of the "big five" Cleveland blows
them all away-bye bye...Like Szell said "we start rehearsing where the
others leave off" and that still goes-and I don't really care what
anyone else thinks about it.
Tom Deacon
2005-10-12 10:02:23 UTC
Permalink
On 10/11/05 9:38 PM, in article
Post by Todd Schurk
Anyway, regardless of your opinion of the "big five" Cleveland blows
them all away-bye bye...Like Szell said "we start rehearsing where the
others leave off" and that still goes-and I don't really care what
anyone else thinks about it.
Szell died decades ago. And was followed by Maazel, Dohnanyi and now, wait
for it, FranklyWorseThenMost.

TD
Todd Schurk
2005-10-12 14:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 9:38 PM, in article
Post by Todd Schurk
Anyway, regardless of your opinion of the "big five" Cleveland blows
them all away-bye bye...Like Szell said "we start rehearsing where the
others leave off" and that still goes-and I don't really care what
anyone else thinks about it.
Szell died decades ago. And was followed by Maazel, Dohnanyi and now, wait
for it, FranklyWorseThenMost.
TD
Even if you were conductor Deacon(chuckle...), Cleveland would still be
the best orchestra in the world...now that's really saying alot!! And
Welser-Most is a fine conductor-Have you even heard a concert by him &
Cleveland? If not Tom....shut up & have a nice day! Cheers,Todd
Tom Deacon
2005-10-12 15:15:08 UTC
Permalink
On 10/12/05 10:39 AM, in article
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by Tom Deacon
Szell died decades ago. And was followed by Maazel, Dohnanyi and now, wait
for it, FranklyWorseThenMost.
TD
Even if you were conductor Deacon(chuckle...), Cleveland would still be
the best orchestra in the world...now that's really saying alot!!
More than you think.

Sounds as though the orchestra is on auto-pilot. Have you discussed this
with Jeffrey Powell?

Incidentally, his absence of late has been like a breath of fresh air.

TD
Todd Schurk
2005-10-12 16:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 10:39 AM, in article
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by Tom Deacon
Szell died decades ago. And was followed by Maazel, Dohnanyi and now, wait
for it, FranklyWorseThenMost.
TD
Even if you were conductor Deacon(chuckle...), Cleveland would still be
the best orchestra in the world...now that's really saying alot!!
More than you think.
Sounds as though the orchestra is on auto-pilot. Have you discussed this
with Jeffrey Powell?
Incidentally, his absence of late has been like a breath of fresh air.
TD
If "auto-pilot" means that they retain and maintain the high standards
that have existed since the Szell era no matter who is waving the stick
in front of them-then I agree. This in stark contrast to,say, those big
babies over in N.Y. city who will play crappy if they don't like the
podium pal. In Cleveland they have integrity and reputation to
uphold...and they do so with remarkable consistancy. I discuss nothing
with that psychopath...and yes...I've noticed the lack of his stench
recently. Todd
j***@aol.com
2005-10-12 18:47:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 10:39 AM, in article
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by Tom Deacon
Szell died decades ago. And was followed by Maazel, Dohnanyi and now, wait
for it, FranklyWorseThenMost.
TD
Even if you were conductor Deacon(chuckle...), Cleveland would still be
the best orchestra in the world...now that's really saying alot!!
More than you think.
Sounds as though the orchestra is on auto-pilot. Have you discussed this
with Jeffrey Powell?
Incidentally, his absence of late has been like a breath of fresh air.
TD
If "auto-pilot" means that they retain and maintain the high standards
that have existed since the Szell era no matter who is waving the stick
in front of them-then I agree. This in stark contrast to,say, those big
babies over in N.Y. city who will play crappy if they don't like the
podium pal. In Cleveland they have integrity and reputation to
uphold...and they do so with remarkable consistancy. I discuss nothing
with that psychopath...and yes...I've noticed the lack of his stench
recently. Todd
It was TD, of course, who introduced the notion that the VPO's
greatness was confirmed by their ability to play well for anybody--a
similar claim of an "autopilot" orchestra but far less convincing than
the case to be made for Cleveland.

--Jeff
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-10-12 19:11:03 UTC
Permalink
It was TD, of course, who introduced the notion that the VPO's greatness
was confirmed by their ability to play well for anybody--a similar claim
of an "autopilot" orchestra but far less convincing than the case to be
made for Cleveland.
*chuckle*
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Tom Deacon
2005-10-12 21:01:10 UTC
Permalink
On 10/12/05 2:47 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 10:39 AM, in article
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by Tom Deacon
Szell died decades ago. And was followed by Maazel, Dohnanyi and now, wait
for it, FranklyWorseThenMost.
TD
Even if you were conductor Deacon(chuckle...), Cleveland would still be
the best orchestra in the world...now that's really saying alot!!
More than you think.
Sounds as though the orchestra is on auto-pilot. Have you discussed this
with Jeffrey Powell?
Incidentally, his absence of late has been like a breath of fresh air.
TD
If "auto-pilot" means that they retain and maintain the high standards
that have existed since the Szell era no matter who is waving the stick
in front of them-then I agree. This in stark contrast to,say, those big
babies over in N.Y. city who will play crappy if they don't like the
podium pal. In Cleveland they have integrity and reputation to
uphold...and they do so with remarkable consistancy. I discuss nothing
with that psychopath...and yes...I've noticed the lack of his stench
recently. Todd
It was TD, of course, who introduced the notion that the VPO's
greatness was confirmed by their ability to play well for anybody--a
similar claim of an "autopilot" orchestra but far less convincing than
the case to be made for Cleveland.
No.

They don't play "well"; they play "musically". The complete opposite of
machines on auto-pilot.

Sometimes I feel that the posters here have never even heard or seen the
VPO, particularly not the VPO in the Musikverein, which is one of the
wonders of the world in my opinion.

Comparing them to Cleveland is like comparing a Corvette to an Alfa Romeo.
No heart!

TD
b***@phillynews.com
2005-10-12 21:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
Sometimes I feel that the posters here have never even heard or seen the
VPO, particularly not the VPO in the Musikverein, which is one of the
wonders of the world in my opinion.
TD
I've heard them at Carnegie Hall a handfull of times and have found
that like any other orchestra, the conductor makes a difference. I
wasn't that blown away by their sound under Muti and Boulez, but was
when I saw them with Haitink and Harnoncourt.

I've got a slight preference for the BPO; at least from what I heard
with Abbado. I've only seen them once so far with Rattle.

Barry
b***@phillynews.com
2005-10-12 21:13:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by Tom Deacon
Sometimes I feel that the posters here have never even heard or seen the
VPO, particularly not the VPO in the Musikverein, which is one of the
wonders of the world in my opinion.
TD
I've heard them at Carnegie Hall a handfull of times and have found
that like any other orchestra, the conductor makes a difference. I
wasn't that blown away by their sound under Muti and Boulez, but was
when I saw them with Haitink and Harnoncourt.
I've got a slight preference for the BPO; at least from what I heard
with Abbado. I've only seen them once so far with Rattle.
Barry
And actually, I thought the Philadelphia under Sawallisch during the
late 90s and first couple years of the present decade "sounded" as good
as any orchestra I've seen live.
Of the major ones I've heard, Cleveland was probably my least favorite.
Sure they play with great accuracy, but they sounded so generic. They
were the only top orchestra I've seen whose sound had nothing
especially distinctive about it. New York and Chicago have power to
burn, and that's their trademark. I found that power and volume to be
too over the top at times, but I'll take it to the blandness that I
heard from Cleveland (I saw them play Mahler's seventh under
Welser-Most; and to be fair, it was his first season in Cleveland, so
they may not have hit their stride together yet).
Barry
j***@aol.com
2005-10-12 21:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by Tom Deacon
Sometimes I feel that the posters here have never even heard or seen the
VPO, particularly not the VPO in the Musikverein, which is one of the
wonders of the world in my opinion.
TD
I've heard them at Carnegie Hall a handfull of times and have found
that like any other orchestra, the conductor makes a difference. I
wasn't that blown away by their sound under Muti and Boulez, but was
when I saw them with Haitink and Harnoncourt.
I've got a slight preference for the BPO; at least from what I heard
with Abbado. I've only seen them once so far with Rattle.
Barry
And actually, I thought the Philadelphia under Sawallisch during the
late 90s and first couple years of the present decade "sounded" as good
as any orchestra I've seen live.
Of the major ones I've heard, Cleveland was probably my least favorite.
Sure they play with great accuracy, but they sounded so generic. They
were the only top orchestra I've seen whose sound had nothing
especially distinctive about it. New York and Chicago have power to
burn, and that's their trademark. I found that power and volume to be
too over the top at times, but I'll take it to the blandness that I
heard from Cleveland (I saw them play Mahler's seventh under
Welser-Most; and to be fair, it was his first season in Cleveland, so
they may not have hit their stride together yet).
Barry
By the way, I tend to agree with much of this (and note that the
Cleveland Mahler 7 with Tennstedt is played to the hilt--nothing bland
about it). The blandness of sound does not hide extraordinary
musicality, but it crept in more in the Maazel era, to my ears. Live
Dohnanyi concerts still could be seductively beautiful but not quite as
torridly hot as Szell in concert (based on the records). But wow,
they've never lost that accuracy, something that comes and goes
(relatively speaking) in many other top orchestras. For distinctive
sound, NY or Chicago (or LA or Boston or Philly) always seemed more
interesting to me.

I don't know if I would consider Sawallisch's Philadelphia more
beautiful than Ormandy's, however--but that's a distant memory. Ozawa's
BSO of the 70s, in the right repertoire, could be incredibly beautiful.
I would love to have heard Van Beinum's Concertgebouw in similar
repertoire.

--Jeff
Todd Schurk
2005-10-12 22:02:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by Tom Deacon
Sometimes I feel that the posters here have never even heard or seen the
VPO, particularly not the VPO in the Musikverein, which is one of the
wonders of the world in my opinion.
TD
I've heard them at Carnegie Hall a handfull of times and have found
that like any other orchestra, the conductor makes a difference. I
wasn't that blown away by their sound under Muti and Boulez, but was
when I saw them with Haitink and Harnoncourt.
I've got a slight preference for the BPO; at least from what I heard
with Abbado. I've only seen them once so far with Rattle.
Barry
And actually, I thought the Philadelphia under Sawallisch during the
late 90s and first couple years of the present decade "sounded" as good
as any orchestra I've seen live.
Of the major ones I've heard, Cleveland was probably my least favorite.
Sure they play with great accuracy, but they sounded so generic. They
were the only top orchestra I've seen whose sound had nothing
especially distinctive about it. New York and Chicago have power to
burn, and that's their trademark. I found that power and volume to be
too over the top at times, but I'll take it to the blandness that I
heard from Cleveland (I saw them play Mahler's seventh under
Welser-Most; and to be fair, it was his first season in Cleveland, so
they may not have hit their stride together yet).
Barry
By the way, I tend to agree with much of this (and note that the
Cleveland Mahler 7 with Tennstedt is played to the hilt--nothing bland
about it). The blandness of sound does not hide extraordinary
musicality, but it crept in more in the Maazel era, to my ears. Live
Dohnanyi concerts still could be seductively beautiful but not quite as
torridly hot as Szell in concert (based on the records). But wow,
they've never lost that accuracy, something that comes and goes
(relatively speaking) in many other top orchestras. For distinctive
sound, NY or Chicago (or LA or Boston or Philly) always seemed more
interesting to me.
I don't know if I would consider Sawallisch's Philadelphia more
beautiful than Ormandy's, however--but that's a distant memory. Ozawa's
BSO of the 70s, in the right repertoire, could be incredibly beautiful.
I would love to have heard Van Beinum's Concertgebouw in similar
repertoire.
--Jeff
Funny-I always thought of the N.Y. Phil's sound as kind of a grey
monochrome kind of thing...Cleveland was a lean and silvery sheen,
Ormandy's Philly the "Golden" strings(yes-I heard them 38 or so years
ago)...Solti's Chicago brass a physical force(circa 1971)...I heard
Cleveland first in '71(months after Szell died) with Walter
Susskind...and the last time just months ago w/FWM...and damned if they
don't sound nearly exactly the same over nearly 35 years!
b***@phillynews.com
2005-10-12 22:13:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
Funny-I always thought of the N.Y. Phil's sound as kind of a grey
monochrome kind of thing...Cleveland was a lean and silvery sheen,
Ormandy's Philly the "Golden" strings(yes-I heard them 38 or so years
ago)...Solti's Chicago brass a physical force(circa 1971)...I heard
Cleveland first in '71(months after Szell died) with Walter
Susskind...and the last time just months ago w/FWM...and damned if they
don't sound nearly exactly the same over nearly 35 years!
I can tell you that no other orchestra, including the home team, has
projected as powerfully in the Kimmel Center (the Phillies home for
about the past four seasons) as the NY Philharmonic did, at least
during their first visit to the hall a couple seasons ago. Back then,
there seemed to be a major problem with sound not projecting; or a lack
of presence (adjustments have been made, and it's less of a problem
now). Then they practically blew the roof off with a performance of
Mahler's first. I'm not saying that entirely as a compliment. There
were times when I thought woodwind or brass principals played solo
passages so loudly that it distracted from the overall flow of the
music. The only other orchestra I've heard play that loudly was the CSO
at Carnegie in a performance of Bruckner's fourth about five or six
years ago.
Under Sawallisch, the Philadelphia strings may have had a bit less
sheen than they did under Ormandy (I can't say from personal experience
since I started going to concerts shortly after EO retired), but the
strings were definately more out front than in most other orchestras
and they had such a heavy sound. Sawallisch had the brass blend in
more, rather than projecting over the other sections, as is the case
with some of the other top American orchestras. It was like a big wall
of sound that would sweep up everything in its path.
The Philadelphia from that period and the BPO under Abbado from about
the same time (late 90s-around 2001-2002) are my personal favorites
among the orchestras I've heard in concert.
Barry
j***@aol.com
2005-10-12 21:31:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 2:47 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/12/05 10:39 AM, in article
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by Tom Deacon
Szell died decades ago. And was followed by Maazel, Dohnanyi and now, wait
for it, FranklyWorseThenMost.
TD
Even if you were conductor Deacon(chuckle...), Cleveland would still be
the best orchestra in the world...now that's really saying alot!!
More than you think.
Sounds as though the orchestra is on auto-pilot. Have you discussed this
with Jeffrey Powell?
Incidentally, his absence of late has been like a breath of fresh air.
TD
If "auto-pilot" means that they retain and maintain the high standards
that have existed since the Szell era no matter who is waving the stick
in front of them-then I agree. This in stark contrast to,say, those big
babies over in N.Y. city who will play crappy if they don't like the
podium pal. In Cleveland they have integrity and reputation to
uphold...and they do so with remarkable consistancy. I discuss nothing
with that psychopath...and yes...I've noticed the lack of his stench
recently. Todd
It was TD, of course, who introduced the notion that the VPO's
greatness was confirmed by their ability to play well for anybody--a
similar claim of an "autopilot" orchestra but far less convincing than
the case to be made for Cleveland.
No.
They don't play "well"; they play "musically". The complete opposite of
machines on auto-pilot.
Sometimes I feel that the posters here have never even heard or seen the
VPO, particularly not the VPO in the Musikverein, which is one of the
wonders of the world in my opinion.
Oh, it's a lovely building!

Well=musically in Cleveland. Definitely talking about orchestras, not
machines.

Sometimes I think people have never heard the Cleveland Orchestra,
which in Severance Hall, and at Blossom and Carnegie, and the Kennedy
Center and everywhere else is one of the wonders of the world.
Post by Tom Deacon
Comparing them to Cleveland is like comparing a Corvette to an Alfa Romeo.
No heart!
Comparing Cleveland to VPO is like comparing a Jeep to a Lamborghini.
Both have heart. The former goes everywhere, no matter what the terrain
or weather. The latter does not stray from a smooth road, when it runs
at all. The beauty is in the eye of the covetous beholder and the
satisfaction of the proud driver.

--Jeff
Bob Harper
2005-10-13 00:36:39 UTC
Permalink
Tom Deacon wrote:
(snip)
Post by Tom Deacon
Comparing them to Cleveland is like comparing a Corvette to an Alfa Romeo.
No heart!
TD
Well, the 'Vette would run off and hide from most any Alfa, if that's
what you mean.

Bob Harper
Tom Deacon
2005-10-13 08:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
(snip)
Post by Tom Deacon
Comparing them to Cleveland is like comparing a Corvette to an Alfa Romeo.
No heart!
TD
Well, the 'Vette would run off and hide from most any Alfa, if that's
what you mean.
In a straight away. The Alfas I know from Europe would beat the Corvette in
the Alps. Hands down. AND they have heart!

TD
Sacqueboutier
2005-10-13 10:25:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
Post by Bob Harper
(snip)
Post by Tom Deacon
Comparing them to Cleveland is like comparing a Corvette to an Alfa Romeo.
No heart!
TD
Well, the 'Vette would run off and hide from most any Alfa, if that's
what you mean.
In a straight away. The Alfas I know from Europe would beat the Corvette in
the Alps. Hands down. AND they have heart!
TD
They are machines, and they STILL have more heart than you do. (For
that matter, so does the 'Vette.)
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-10-12 19:11:03 UTC
Permalink
I discuss nothing with that psychopath...and yes...I've noticed the lack
of his stench recently. Todd
If the Canadian psychopath would just join him in nowhereland, I'd be happy.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
a***@aol.com
2005-10-12 19:31:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
If "auto-pilot" means that they retain and maintain the high standards
that have existed since the Szell era no matter who is waving the stick
in front of them-then I agree. This in stark contrast to,say, those big
babies over in N.Y. city who will play crappy if they don't like the
podium pal. In Cleveland they have integrity and reputation to
uphold...and they do so with remarkable consistancy. I discuss nothing
with that psychopath...and yes...I've noticed the lack of his stench
recently. Todd
We have been down this path before but I would be very surprised if any
orchestra anywhere in the world "play crappy" because they do not like
the conductor. That has not been my experience.

Certainly, all orchestras can "play crappy" from time to time
regardless of who is conducting but I believe that sometimes an
orchestra can also play well when the conductor is less than ideal.

Only the orchestra and such reputation as it has would suffer from
deliberately "playing crappy". Surely the point would be lost on
everyone else?

I have sometimes taken part in what I thought was a good performance
"against the odds" as it were and I do not believe I am alone in that
experience.

As far as I know musicians go out to play their very best. Sometimes
they don't manage it but I have never known of anyone going out to play
"crappy" with deliberate intent, as it were. I would not think you
would stay long in the job.
For most vacancies around the world there are today often several
hundred applicants.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-10-12 03:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
Wrong TD. One is in Amsterdam. Equal to Berlin/Vienna,and with a more
distinctive sound-and it's not just that Hall either.
I would consider adding the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, on a good day.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
j***@aol.com
2005-10-12 18:43:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Todd Schurk
Wrong TD. One is in Amsterdam. Equal to Berlin/Vienna,and with a more
distinctive sound-and it's not just that Hall either.
I would consider adding the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, on a good day.
It's important to know how often they have a good day. I suspect it is
very often.

--Jeff
Sacqueboutier
2005-10-11 22:21:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 4:02 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Falletta. Spano. Schwarz. Litton and DePriest, until recently (why not
bring him back to DC, or Hugh Wolff, who was popular in his early days
there as well? And is DePriest available?}.
And Alsop, of course.
--Jeff
Spano perhaps. The jury is still out on Falletta. I've played with
several colleagues who have played under her. They claim the emperor
has no clothes. Schwarz is fine where he is, thank you. Now,
Litton...I think he's the ticket for the NSO.
Whether or not you like her work, Falletta is the music director of a
major orchestra--or at least an orchestra that was at one time as major
as Baltimore or Washington (and I'm not counting Long Beach, which was
really not a bad gig at all), so she's one of the answers you were
looking for.
No, she isn't. While Buffalo is a fine orchestra, it is hardly world class.
With all due respect, you didn't ask for "world-class" orchestras, you
asked, "Any others with "major" orchestras in the US? Zinman went
away."
There are only two world class orchestras in my opinion.
...which doesn't mean much.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Tom Deacon
2005-10-11 23:57:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/11/05 4:02 PM, in article
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by j***@aol.com
Falletta. Spano. Schwarz. Litton and DePriest, until recently (why not
bring him back to DC, or Hugh Wolff, who was popular in his early days
there as well? And is DePriest available?}.
And Alsop, of course.
--Jeff
Spano perhaps. The jury is still out on Falletta. I've played with
several colleagues who have played under her. They claim the emperor
has no clothes. Schwarz is fine where he is, thank you. Now,
Litton...I think he's the ticket for the NSO.
Whether or not you like her work, Falletta is the music director of a
major orchestra--or at least an orchestra that was at one time as major
as Baltimore or Washington (and I'm not counting Long Beach, which was
really not a bad gig at all), so she's one of the answers you were
looking for.
No, she isn't. While Buffalo is a fine orchestra, it is hardly world class.
With all due respect, you didn't ask for "world-class" orchestras, you
asked, "Any others with "major" orchestras in the US? Zinman went
away."
There are only two world class orchestras in my opinion.
...which doesn't mean much.
No opinions are worth the powder to blow them to Hell, Don. And guess what,
that includes yours.

TD
Sacqueboutier
2005-10-12 01:58:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
No opinions are worth the powder to blow them to Hell, Don. And guess what,
that includes yours.
TD
It's really quite amazing the way it trys to imitate smart people. I
wonder, if we were to put 100,000 Deacons in front of 100,000
typewriters for 100,000 years, would they eventually produce the
collected works of Shakespeare?
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-10-12 03:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
It's really quite amazing the way it trys to imitate smart people. I
wonder, if we were to put 100,000 Deacons in front of 100,000
typewriters for 100,000 years, would they eventually produce the
collected works of Shakespeare?
You'd have to add in a few monkeys to write the clever parts.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Brendan R. Wehrung
2005-10-12 05:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Sacqueboutier
It's really quite amazing the way it trys to imitate smart people. I
wonder, if we were to put 100,000 Deacons in front of 100,000
typewriters for 100,000 years, would they eventually produce the
collected works of Shakespeare?
You'd have to add in a few monkeys to write the clever parts.
Those bits are spoken by the Fools, nuncle.

Brendan
--
j***@aol.com
2005-10-12 05:37:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Sacqueboutier
It's really quite amazing the way it trys to imitate smart people. I
wonder, if we were to put 100,000 Deacons in front of 100,000
typewriters for 100,000 years, would they eventually produce the
collected works of Shakespeare?
You'd have to add in a few monkeys to write the clever parts.
Undoubtedly the witticism of the day!

You win a free copy of the infamous Philips no-noise remastering of
Knappertsbusch/VPO playing Boulez's Notations and Ives' 4th, because
the VPO is the best no matter what!!

--Jeff
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-10-12 06:40:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Sacqueboutier
It's really quite amazing the way it trys to imitate smart people. I
wonder, if we were to put 100,000 Deacons in front of 100,000
typewriters for 100,000 years, would they eventually produce the
collected works of Shakespeare?
You'd have to add in a few monkeys to write the clever parts.
Undoubtedly the witticism of the day!
You win a free copy of the infamous Philips no-noise remastering of
Knappertsbusch/VPO playing Boulez's Notations and Ives' 4th, because
the VPO is the best no matter what!!
*cackle*
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Allen
2005-10-12 14:25:46 UTC
Permalink
***@aol.com wrote:

<snip>
Post by j***@aol.com
You win a free copy of the infamous Philips no-noise remastering of
Knappertsbusch/VPO playing Boulez's Notations and Ives' 4th, because
the VPO is the best no matter what!!
--Jeff
Is that the process that Philips used to remove the music as well as the
surface noise?

Allen
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-10-12 15:39:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Allen
<snip>
Post by j***@aol.com
You win a free copy of the infamous Philips no-noise remastering of
Knappertsbusch/VPO playing Boulez's Notations and Ives' 4th, because
the VPO is the best no matter what!!
Is that the process that Philips used to remove the music as well as the
surface noise?
Yes, which is why some of us refer to it not as NoNoise but as NoMusic.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Allen
2005-10-12 14:23:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Tom Deacon
No opinions are worth the powder to blow them to Hell, Don. And guess what,
that includes yours.
TD
It's really quite amazing the way it trys to imitate smart people. I
wonder, if we were to put 100,000 Deacons in front of 100,000
typewriters for 100,000 years, would they eventually produce the
collected works of Shakespeare?
But then TD would claim eternal copyright on the whole thing, and sue
four centuries' worth of directors, actors and theater owners for
copyright violation.
Allen
Tom Deacon
2005-10-11 10:56:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Tom Deacon
On 10/10/05 10:12 AM, in article
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by George Murnu
Don't worry, there's still hope! Ivan Fischer has just been named principal
guest conductor of the NSO in Washington, so this is great news as Fischer
is my favorite conductor of his generation. And besides as I understand it
Temirkanov will still guest conduct in Baltimore.
I've liked Temirkanov's recordings and think he was good in Balmer.
Good luck to him. Also good for Fischer. I look forward to his work
with the NSO, though I wish they would hire an American conductor. It
seems they can find more work in Europe than in the US. Silly, isn't
it?
Why silly?
This is (mostly) European music.
Of course American audiences always want the best and are willing and able
to pay for it.
Don't confuse artistic quality with parochial nationalism, Don.
TD
No surprise really to see Deacon once again misses the point.
There are fine conductors on both sides of the pond. Why so many
American orchestras think they have to get Europeans is beyond me.
Like a lot of things.

TD
Sacqueboutier
2005-10-11 17:48:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Deacon
Like a lot of things.
TD
Isn't it cute? It made a witty remark. Let's mark our calendars.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Sol Siegel
2005-10-09 05:18:24 UTC
Permalink
I'm now officially a BIG Yuri Temirkanov fan... He made the
opening movement [of the Brahms 2nd Symphony] sound fresher
than I've heard in ages.
I recall an amazing rendition by Colin Davis and the visiting BSO too
many years ago. But this was definitely up there.
[Philadelphia Inquirer critic] David Stearns
mentioned in his review of Thursday's performance that Temirkanov
brought out the fugue-like aspects of the music and I could definately
hear that during the opening movement.
Throughout, I was hearing the work's connections back to the days
of Mozart, Beethoven and Haydn - the textures were that light, without
eviscerating the Philly sound. Then again, YT for some 30 years has been
one of the handful of conductors who are geniuses at balancing the
Orchestra. (Levine is another.)
Was anyone else at tonight's concert? I don't listen to a lot of solo
piano music. I'd like to know what Grimaud's encore was. Thought it
might be a prelude, and possibly Rachmaninoff, but I'm not sure.
Yes, Rachmaninov: I'm pretty sure it was the Etude-Tableau Op. 33 No. 2.
Henry Maurer
2005-10-09 12:27:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
I'm now officially a BIG Yuri Temirkanov fan. The only previous time I
had seen him live was perhaps five years ago at the Academy of Music.
He led a performance of the Shostakovich seventh that I still count
among the handfull of best performances I've ever been present for.
I heard the performance on Thursday night and I agree...it was
magnificent.
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Was anyone else at tonight's concert? I don't listen to a lot of solo
piano music. I'd like to know what Grimaud's encore was. Thought it
might be a prelude, and possibly Rachmaninoff, but I'm not sure.
Unfortunately, no encore by Grimaud on Thursday night, perhaps because
she had to endure a delay of several minutes before she and the
orchestra could begin, due to a buzzing sound from the sound system.
Michael Schaffer
2005-10-10 00:53:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
I'm now officially a BIG Yuri Temirkanov fan. The only previous time I
had seen him live was perhaps five years ago at the Academy of Music.
He led a performance of the Shostakovich seventh that I still count
among the handfull of best performances I've ever been present for.
I can add another Temirkanov-led performance to that short list after
seeing him conduct just an awesome Brahms second symphony. This is up
there with a fourth that I saw Sawallisch conduct at the Academy as the
two best live Brahms symphony performances I've witnessed. He made the
opening movement sound fresher than I've heard in ages. David Stearns
mentioned in his review of Thursday's performance that Temirkanov
brought out the fugue-like aspects of the music and I could definately
hear that during the opening movement.
I like a real rip-roaring finale and generally walk out of a live
performance thinking I didn't get it. But that wasn't the case tonight.
Temirkanov really had the strings blazing away.
I'm hoping that since he's giving up his Baltimore job, he'll return to
making frequent guest appearances in Philly. This was his first time
here since that Shostakovich concert at the Academy.
Helene Grimaud opened the concert with Rachmaninoff's second concerto.
I thought she played the opening movement to slow, at times losing the
melodic line. But I enjoyed the last two movements very much.
Was anyone else at tonight's concert? I don't listen to a lot of solo
piano music. I'd like to know what Grimaud's encore was. Thought it
might be a prelude, and possibly Rachmaninoff, but I'm not sure.
Barry
There is actually a recording of Brahms 2nd with Temirkanov, with the
USSR State SO. It is available on Russian Revelation and Yedang
Classics. It would be interesting to hear, also to hear how a Russian
orchestra of that period plays Brahms. Is anybody familiar with these
releases?
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