Discussion:
Finally (Consecration of the House)
(too old to reply)
b***@phillynews.com
2006-03-08 18:22:15 UTC
Permalink
FINALLY, after years of searching, I've found a recording of the
Consecration of the House Overture that completely satisfies me from
start to finish. I always seem to have a problem with one section being
off either in terms of tempo or the brass being virtually inaudible.
But the Markevitch/Lamoureux Orchestra performance on Living Stage,
part of a two-disc set of Beethoven and Wagner performances, does the
trick.

My search is over, and I can finally make my compilation disc of
favorite Beethoven overture recordings!

Barry
Todd Schurk
2006-03-08 18:25:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
FINALLY, after years of searching, I've found a recording of the
Consecration of the House Overture that completely satisfies me from
start to finish. I always seem to have a problem with one section being
off either in terms of tempo or the brass being virtually inaudible.
But the Markevitch/Lamoureux Orchestra performance on Living Stage,
part of a two-disc set of Beethoven and Wagner performances, does the
trick.
My search is over, and I can finally make my compilation disc of
favorite Beethoven overture recordings!
Barry
Barry-how is the rest of that set...and the sound? Where did you get
it? Thanks.
Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim
2006-03-08 18:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by b***@phillynews.com
FINALLY, after years of searching, I've found a recording of the
Consecration of the House Overture that completely satisfies me from
start to finish. I always seem to have a problem with one section being
off either in terms of tempo or the brass being virtually inaudible.
But the Markevitch/Lamoureux Orchestra performance on Living Stage,
part of a two-disc set of Beethoven and Wagner performances, does the
trick.
My search is over, and I can finally make my compilation disc of
favorite Beethoven overture recordings!
Barry
Barry-how is the rest of that set...and the sound? Where did you get
it? Thanks.
During the trumpet fanfares, how 'bout the bassoons running up & down
scales, which you can barely hear most of the time (and not at all in the
Masur/Gewandhaus recording)?

Russ (not Martha)
Todd Schurk
2006-03-08 18:59:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by b***@phillynews.com
FINALLY, after years of searching, I've found a recording of the
Consecration of the House Overture that completely satisfies me from
start to finish. I always seem to have a problem with one section being
off either in terms of tempo or the brass being virtually inaudible.
But the Markevitch/Lamoureux Orchestra performance on Living Stage,
part of a two-disc set of Beethoven and Wagner performances, does the
trick.
My search is over, and I can finally make my compilation disc of
favorite Beethoven overture recordings!
Barry
Barry-how is the rest of that set...and the sound? Where did you get
it? Thanks.
During the trumpet fanfares, how 'bout the bassoons running up & down
scales, which you can barely hear most of the time (and not at all in the
Masur/Gewandhaus recording)?
Russ (not Martha)
You can really hear those bassoons in the Zinman/Zurich set on Arte
Nova-great balance!
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-03-08 20:29:19 UTC
Permalink
"Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim" <***@satx.rr.com> appears to have
caused the following letters to be typed in news:owFPf.3824$Ls.1511
Post by Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim
During the trumpet fanfares, how 'bout the bassoons running up & down
scales, which you can barely hear most of the time (and not at all in the
Masur/Gewandhaus recording)?
That exact passage was one which Toscanini worried about; he was quoted as
saying that he tried and tried, but couldn't hear "dose bassoons"!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Iain Neill Reid
2006-03-09 01:23:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
caused the following letters to be typed in news:owFPf.3824$Ls.1511
Post by Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim
During the trumpet fanfares, how 'bout the bassoons running up & down
scales, which you can barely hear most of the time (and not at all in the
Masur/Gewandhaus recording)?
That exact passage was one which Toscanini worried about; he was quoted as
saying that he tried and tried, but couldn't hear "dose bassoons"!
They're pretty clear on his NBC recording - I have a vague memory of
reading about his concerns on this point, and how he was satisfied that
he'd solved it for this performance

Neill Reid
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-03-09 05:55:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Iain Neill Reid
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
caused the following letters to be typed in news:owFPf.3824$Ls.1511
Post by Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim
During the trumpet fanfares, how 'bout the bassoons running up & down
scales, which you can barely hear most of the time (and not at all in
the Masur/Gewandhaus recording)?
That exact passage was one which Toscanini worried about; he was quoted
as saying that he tried and tried, but couldn't hear "dose bassoons"!
They're pretty clear on his NBC recording - I have a vague memory of
reading about his concerns on this point, and how he was satisfied that
he'd solved it for this performance
Yes, I think we've read the same account, possibly as told in one of
Haggin's books.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Heck51
2006-03-09 18:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Iain Neill Reid writes:

"They're pretty clear on his NBC recording - I have a vague memory of
reading about his concerns on this point, and how he was satisfied that

he'd solved it for this performance"

re the trumpet bassoon passage in Consecration/House Ov - IIRC -
Toscanini 2bled both parts in the bassoons, used 4 players with
excellent results. tho not always advisable, in this situation it works
well - more sound, and, the players can stagger the breathing. the
passage is supposed to be all tongued, and it goes on and on with no
break. breathing and fatigue are very real factors. 2bling the parts
helps a great deal.
Michael Schaffer
2006-03-09 19:47:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heck51
"They're pretty clear on his NBC recording - I have a vague memory of
reading about his concerns on this point, and how he was satisfied that
he'd solved it for this performance"
re the trumpet bassoon passage in Consecration/House Ov - IIRC -
Toscanini 2bled both parts in the bassoons, used 4 players with
excellent results. tho not always advisable, in this situation it works
well - more sound, and, the players can stagger the breathing. the
passage is supposed to be all tongued, and it goes on and on with no
break. breathing and fatigue are very real factors. 2bling the parts
helps a great deal.
Except that American wind players all have supernatural powers
(according to you at least), so they won't need that kind of help and
will be able to play that passage louder than possible anywhere else in
the world (this may also have to do with other factors such as
radiation from outer space which is directed at the North American
continent, or maybe the nuclear bomb tests in the desert).
Heck51
2006-03-09 23:52:52 UTC
Permalink
Michael Schaffer writes:

"Except that American wind players all have supernatural powers<.....>
so they won't need that kind of help and will be able to play that
passage louder than possible anywhere else in
the world."

yes, of course, well said. :)
but still, 2bling helps in that passage. it is quite fatiguing. <bg>
Bob Harper
2006-03-10 00:15:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Heck51
"They're pretty clear on his NBC recording - I have a vague memory of
reading about his concerns on this point, and how he was satisfied that
he'd solved it for this performance"
re the trumpet bassoon passage in Consecration/House Ov - IIRC -
Toscanini 2bled both parts in the bassoons, used 4 players with
excellent results. tho not always advisable, in this situation it works
well - more sound, and, the players can stagger the breathing. the
passage is supposed to be all tongued, and it goes on and on with no
break. breathing and fatigue are very real factors. 2bling the parts
helps a great deal.
Except that American wind players all have supernatural powers
(according to you at least), so they won't need that kind of help and
will be able to play that passage louder than possible anywhere else in
the world (this may also have to do with other factors such as
radiation from outer space which is directed at the North American
continent, or maybe the nuclear bomb tests in the desert).
Shut up, Michael.

Bob Harper
Michael Schaffer
2006-03-10 00:32:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Heck51
"They're pretty clear on his NBC recording - I have a vague memory of
reading about his concerns on this point, and how he was satisfied that
he'd solved it for this performance"
re the trumpet bassoon passage in Consecration/House Ov - IIRC -
Toscanini 2bled both parts in the bassoons, used 4 players with
excellent results. tho not always advisable, in this situation it works
well - more sound, and, the players can stagger the breathing. the
passage is supposed to be all tongued, and it goes on and on with no
break. breathing and fatigue are very real factors. 2bling the parts
helps a great deal.
Except that American wind players all have supernatural powers
(according to you at least), so they won't need that kind of help and
will be able to play that passage louder than possible anywhere else in
the world (this may also have to do with other factors such as
radiation from outer space which is directed at the North American
continent, or maybe the nuclear bomb tests in the desert).
Shut up, Michael.
Bob Harper
Were you affected by those tests too? In any case, doesn't it sound
like a good explanation for the endlessly repeated (I mean by Mr Heck)
"fact" that American wind players can play much louder than people
anywhere else in the world? That must be some kind of mutation.
Bob Harper
2006-03-10 01:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Bob Harper
Shut up, Michael.
Bob Harper
Were you affected by those tests too? In any case, doesn't it sound
like a good explanation for the endlessly repeated (I mean by Mr Heck)
"fact" that American wind players can play much louder than people
anywhere else in the world? That must be some kind of mutation.
Sigh. No, I was trying to point out, with a bit of rough humor, that
your attempt to sneer (no doubt on grounds of your superior knowledge
of musical tradition) failed.

Now I have no idea whether bassoonist A, an American, can play more or
less loudly than Fagottspieler D, a German. I suspect it's the
individual and the instrument rather than a national characteristic. In
the context of this discussion, what matters is how you make the bassoon
line audible; Toscanini doubled the bassoons, and it worked. I suspect
others (American and German) have done so as well. More power to them.

Enough.

Bob Harper
Michael Schaffer
2006-03-10 07:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Bob Harper
Shut up, Michael.
Bob Harper
Were you affected by those tests too? In any case, doesn't it sound
like a good explanation for the endlessly repeated (I mean by Mr Heck)
"fact" that American wind players can play much louder than people
anywhere else in the world? That must be some kind of mutation.
Sigh. No, I was trying to point out, with a bit of rough humor, that
your attempt to sneer (no doubt on grounds of your superior knowledge
of musical tradition) failed.
Now I have no idea whether bassoonist A, an American, can play more or
less loudly than Fagottspieler D, a German. I suspect it's the
individual and the instrument rather than a national characteristic.
Apparently you are not familiar with the writings of Mr Heck. According
to him, American wind players in general can play much louder than the
rest of the world. Why that is I have no idea. That includes him in his
position as bassoonist in the obscure Cape Symphony Orchestra.
According to him, he and his colleagues can play much louder and better
than, for instance, any European orchestra. Why that
is I have, again, no idea. But you are probably aware that everything
in America is bigger, louder, faster, better, cheaper, so what he says
makes sense.
Post by Bob Harper
In
the context of this discussion, what matters is how you make the bassoon
line audible; Toscanini doubled the bassoons, and it worked. I suspect
others (American and German) have done so as well. More power to them.
Enough.
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
2006-03-10 14:43:52 UTC
Permalink
Michael Schaffer wrote:
(snip)
Post by Michael Schaffer
Apparently you are not familiar with the writings of Mr Heck. According
to him, American wind players in general can play much louder than the
rest of the world. Why that is I have no idea. That includes him in his
position as bassoonist in the obscure Cape Symphony Orchestra.
According to him, he and his colleagues can play much louder and better
than, for instance, any European orchestra. Why that
is I have, again, no idea.
I have no recollection of this claim. If he makes it, then he's being
silly. Alan Dawes's comment about French vs. German system bassoons
makes much more sense.
But you are probably aware that everything
Post by Michael Schaffer
in America is bigger, louder, faster, better, cheaper,
I'm glad you've figured that out :)
so what he says
Post by Michael Schaffer
makes sense.
Not necessarily; there's no American bassoon. Apparently we've got to
choose between French and German; I've no doubt the German is
louder--Mr. Dawes says so, and it stands to reason, doesn't it?

Bob Harper (hoping the tongue in my cheek is clearly visible to Michael)
Michael Schaffer
2006-03-10 15:11:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
(snip)
Post by Michael Schaffer
Apparently you are not familiar with the writings of Mr Heck. According
to him, American wind players in general can play much louder than the
rest of the world. Why that is I have no idea. That includes him in his
position as bassoonist in the obscure Cape Symphony Orchestra.
According to him, he and his colleagues can play much louder and better
than, for instance, any European orchestra. Why that
is I have, again, no idea.
I have no recollection of this claim. If he makes it, then he's being
silly.
Many, many times, and very explicitly and not at all sarcastical. But
most of these may have been in another forum (good-music-guide), so
that would explain why you haven't seen them.
Post by Bob Harper
Alan Dawes's comment about French vs. German system bassoons
makes much more sense.
But you are probably aware that everything
Post by Michael Schaffer
in America is bigger, louder, faster, better, cheaper,
I'm glad you've figured that out :)
so what he says
Post by Michael Schaffer
makes sense.
Not necessarily; there's no American bassoon. Apparently we've got to
choose between French and German; I've no doubt the German is
louder--Mr. Dawes says so, and it stands to reason, doesn't it?
I don't know if it is actually much louder, but the sound is harder or
more focussed. The French bassoon has a more silky and creamy sound. I
think it's a pity that it's slowly disappearing - not even all French
orchestras play it anymore. The Orchestre de paris, for instance play
on German systems, while the Orchestre National plays on French. Some
orchestras also switch - I believe the players in the Bastille do - and
of course, players in different places use different mouthpieces and
playing techniques to produce different sounds from the German system
bassoons.
Post by Bob Harper
Bob Harper (hoping the tongue in my cheek is clearly visible to Michael)
j***@aol.com
2006-03-10 16:02:34 UTC
Permalink
Michael Schaffer wrote:
Some
Post by Michael Schaffer
orchestras also switch - I believe the players in the Bastille do - and
of course, players in different places use different mouthpieces and
playing techniques to produce different sounds from the German system
bassoons.
I have no idea what the prior history of this discussion was elsewhere,
but it should be pointed out here that isn't quite the right way to
phrase this. The sentence implies that there is a "German system
bassoon sound" independent of the mouthpiece, ie the reed and the bocal
that connects reed to the rest of the instrument.

The instrument has no sound without the reed or personal techniques, of
course, so you can't really produce a "different sound" from a German
system bassooon on a German system bassoon. Rather, I think what
Michael is saying is that you can produce a somewhat Frenchified sound
on a German system bassoon, or a typically German sound, or anything
else, within some significant constraints, all depending on your
philosophy of blowing and reedmaking and bocal choice.

--Jeff
Michael Schaffer
2006-03-10 16:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Some
Post by Michael Schaffer
orchestras also switch - I believe the players in the Bastille do - and
of course, players in different places use different mouthpieces and
playing techniques to produce different sounds from the German system
bassoons.
I have no idea what the prior history of this discussion was elsewhere,
but it should be pointed out here that isn't quite the right way to
phrase this. The sentence implies that there is a "German system
bassoon sound" independent of the mouthpiece, ie the reed and the bocal
that connects reed to the rest of the instrument.
The instrument has no sound without the reed or personal techniques, of
course, so you can't really produce a "different sound" from a German
system bassooon on a German system bassoon. Rather, I think what
Michael is saying is that you can produce a somewhat Frenchified sound
on a German system bassoon, or a typically German sound, or anything
else, within some significant constraints, all depending on your
philosophy of blowing and reedmaking and bocal choice.
--Jeff
That's what I meant. Maybe it would have been clearer if I had said "to
produce various different sounds" or "a palette of different sounds", I
don't know what is the better way to say it. Sorry, my English isn't
very good.
j***@aol.com
2006-03-10 17:50:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by j***@aol.com
Some
Post by Michael Schaffer
orchestras also switch - I believe the players in the Bastille do - and
of course, players in different places use different mouthpieces and
playing techniques to produce different sounds from the German system
bassoons.
I have no idea what the prior history of this discussion was elsewhere,
but it should be pointed out here that isn't quite the right way to
phrase this. The sentence implies that there is a "German system
bassoon sound" independent of the mouthpiece, ie the reed and the bocal
that connects reed to the rest of the instrument.
The instrument has no sound without the reed or personal techniques, of
course, so you can't really produce a "different sound" from a German
system bassooon on a German system bassoon. Rather, I think what
Michael is saying is that you can produce a somewhat Frenchified sound
on a German system bassoon, or a typically German sound, or anything
else, within some significant constraints, all depending on your
philosophy of blowing and reedmaking and bocal choice.
--Jeff
That's what I meant. Maybe it would have been clearer if I had said "to
produce various different sounds" or "a palette of different sounds", I
don't know what is the better way to say it. Sorry, my English isn't
very good.
The English was fine. There was just a slight ambiguity that might have
been misinterpreted by a reader who wasn't familiar with wind
instruments.

--Jeff
b***@phillynews.com
2006-03-10 15:12:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
(snip)
Post by Michael Schaffer
Apparently you are not familiar with the writings of Mr Heck. According
to him, American wind players in general can play much louder than the
rest of the world. Why that is I have no idea. That includes him in his
position as bassoonist in the obscure Cape Symphony Orchestra.
According to him, he and his colleagues can play much louder and better
than, for instance, any European orchestra. Why that
is I have, again, no idea.
I have no recollection of this claim. If he makes it, then he's being
silly.
Bob Harper
This "discussion" is carried over from another message board. These two
have a history.

Barry
Michael Schaffer
2006-03-10 15:20:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by Bob Harper
(snip)
Post by Michael Schaffer
Apparently you are not familiar with the writings of Mr Heck. According
to him, American wind players in general can play much louder than the
rest of the world. Why that is I have no idea. That includes him in his
position as bassoonist in the obscure Cape Symphony Orchestra.
According to him, he and his colleagues can play much louder and better
than, for instance, any European orchestra. Why that
is I have, again, no idea.
I have no recollection of this claim. If he makes it, then he's being
silly.
Bob Harper
This "discussion" is carried over from another message board. These two
have a history.
Barry
True, although it didn't start or stop with me. I rarely post there
anymore, but when I swung by recently to see if there are any new
interesting discussions, he was still at it, telling people that only
American orchestras (and among these, only really the CSO) can play
really loud and with the full range of colors, blabla. One of my first
posts there was about the Giulini/CSO Bruckner 9 which I quite like but
I happened to mention that I was a little bothered by an intonation
slip in one place during the opening horn calls. According to Heck,
intonation slips do not happen in the CSO, and he attacked me with a
ferocity which was really surprising. Same when I shared my slight
preference of British brass sections (especially the Philharmonia) to
American, that also unleashed an incredible avalanche of attacks. Like
a lot of posters here, he also plays the Nazi wildcard against me all
the time, even in this case. How it is Nazi to say I like the sound of
the Philharmonia brass better than the CSO brass, he could never
explain. Really funny, in a way.
Heck51
2006-03-10 16:32:56 UTC
Permalink
whiney-boy schaffer whimpers:

"I rarely post there anymore,"

right, because all you do is pick fights with everyone and get booted
out on your ass. ROFL.
you do the same thing here.
Michael Schaffer
2006-03-10 16:55:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heck51
"I rarely post there anymore,"
right, because all you do is pick fights with everyone and get booted
out on your ass. ROFL.
you do the same thing here.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I wasn't booted out. My account is still
active. But the last time I checked in a few days ago you had gotten
into the same useless discussion about how only American orchestras can
play with another poster, so it is obvious it has nothing to do with
me. It is more a typical American poster thing, here and there. The
endless "do you like America" or "why do you all dislike America"
threads (one active right now) bear witness to that.
Heck51
2006-03-10 18:58:10 UTC
Permalink
you really are in need of psychiatric help, M.

the topic here was a Beethoven overture, a passage involving trumpets
and bassoons particularly.
having played bassoon professionally for nearly 40 years, I felt
qualifed to comment on this topic. I've played the work at least twice
with different orchestras/conductors, and I'm familiar with problems
involved. my training involved study with bassoonists who played for
Toscanini, or were students of those players...so I have an idea of how
AT dealt with the problem as well. you do not like my input, too
bad..others may find it worthwhile, or not...
your response is to introduce some inane irrelevancy regarding an
argument that happened many months ago, on a completely different
forum. I fail to see the relevance to the topic under discussion.

get a life, man...
Michael Schaffer
2006-03-10 19:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heck51
you really are in need of psychiatric help, M.
Don't we all? But I think you are right - one warning sign is that I
waste time in online forums such as these - on the other hand, I am
probably beyond therapy anyway.
Post by Heck51
the topic here was a Beethoven overture, a passage involving trumpets
and bassoons particularly.
having played bassoon professionally for nearly 40 years, I felt
qualifed to comment on this topic. I've played the work at least twice
with different orchestras/conductors, and I'm familiar with problems
involved. my training involved study with bassoonists who played for
Toscanini, or were students of those players...so I have an idea of how
AT dealt with the problem as well. you do not like my input, too
bad..others may find it worthwhile, or not...
I actually found that interesting too. You could contribute a lot more
interesting practical insights if you didn't have that strange fixation
about the superhuman powers of American orchestras in general. you
could also widen your horizon enormously if you tried to understand the
nature of actual authentic traditional playing styles, but I realize
that is a lot to ask from a typical American happy to simmer in his own
juice without looking over the edge of the pot out into the world...
Post by Heck51
your response is to introduce some inane irrelevancy regarding an
argument that happened many months ago, on a completely different
forum. I fail to see the relevance to the topic under discussion.
get a life, man...
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-03-10 15:35:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by Bob Harper
(snip)
Post by Michael Schaffer
Apparently you are not familiar with the writings of Mr Heck.
According to him, American wind players in general can play much
louder than the rest of the world. Why that is I have no idea. That
includes him in his position as bassoonist in the obscure Cape
Symphony Orchestra. According to him, he and his colleagues can play
much louder and better than, for instance, any European orchestra.
Why that is I have, again, no idea.
I have no recollection of this claim. If he makes it, then he's being
silly.
This "discussion" is carried over from another message board. These two
have a history.
I may disagree sharply on politics with Bob, but at least he isn't a mere
insult generator like the other one.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Heck51
2006-03-10 16:27:57 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
Michael Schaffer
2006-03-10 17:00:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
(hoping the tongue in my cheek is clearly visible to Michael)
LOL!!
michael is a belligerent asshole who knows nothing of wind playing,
absolutely -0-.
his buttons are easy to push, if that's of any interest to you. :)
We all have buttons, but you only have one, the endlessly repeated
American-orchestras-are-the
-loudest-and-the-only-which-can-play-really-loud-anyway-and-if-anybody-says-anything-against-that-Heck-gets-really-upset-immediately
button. That same theme song is also the only thing you actually
contribute as far as content is concerned. Although I still think you
aren't really a person, but an automated response program.
Post by Bob Harper
on the subject of bassoons - the French system does seem to be fading
out - even in France - the English stopped using it awhile ago - Cecil
James {Philharmonia, Royal PO] was the last holdout -
I perfer the German/Heckel sound for orchestra work, bigger more
resonant tone - but the French bassoon is most excellent for solo work,
wonderfully expressive and flexible.
to hear a great "basson" player like Maurice Allard is to hear the work
of a great artist
Heck51
2006-03-10 19:01:40 UTC
Permalink
your excessive belligerence has been observed by many, on different
musical forums...
rant and rave to your heart's delight....
Alan P Dawes
2006-03-10 10:38:40 UTC
Permalink
With regard to the loudness of bassoons. It depends on the type of
instrument. The French system bassoon which used to be favoured by some
European players has a 'weaker' sound than the German system which is now
almost universal.

Alan
--
--. --. --. --. : : --- --- ----------------------------
|_| |_| | _ | | | | |_ | ***@argonet.co.uk
| | |\ | | | | |\| | | ***@riscos.org
| | | \ |_| |_| | | |__ | Using an Acorn RiscPC
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-03-10 02:45:42 UTC
Permalink
"Heck51" <***@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:1141928003.523709.89340
Post by Heck51
"They're pretty clear on his NBC recording - I have a vague memory of
reading about his concerns on this point, and how he was satisfied that
he'd solved it for this performance"
re the trumpet bassoon passage in Consecration/House Ov - IIRC -
Toscanini 2bled both parts in the bassoons, used 4 players with excellent
results. tho not always advisable, in this situation it works well - more
sound, and, the players can stagger the breathing. the passage is
supposed to be all tongued, and it goes on and on with no break.
breathing and fatigue are very real factors. 2bling the parts helps a
great deal.
But there aren't any 2bas in Beethoven!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
d***@aol.com
2006-03-08 20:44:46 UTC
Permalink
"During the trumpet fanfares, how 'bout the bassoons running up & down
scales, which you can barely hear most of the time"

That passage is notorious for its balance problems.

-david gable
b***@phillynews.com
2006-03-08 18:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
Barry-how is the rest of that set...and the sound? Where did you get
it? Thanks.
Todd,
It's available cheap from Berkshire. The only other thing I've listened
to so far is the Beethoven fifth. It's a fine performance, but not one
that will make me forget my favorite recordings of the piece. But
considering that it's a Berkshire special, I'll be happy to have the
set for no other reason than the Consecration of the House.
Several of the Wagner performances are with the BPO.

Oh, and the sound is certainly not modern studio quality, but it's not
bad at all; I'd say good for live recordings from the 50s.

Barry
j***@aol.com
2006-03-08 20:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by Todd Schurk
Barry-how is the rest of that set...and the sound? Where did you get
it? Thanks.
Todd,
It's available cheap from Berkshire. The only other thing I've listened
to so far is the Beethoven fifth. It's a fine performance, but not one
that will make me forget my favorite recordings of the piece. But
considering that it's a Berkshire special, I'll be happy to have the
set for no other reason than the Consecration of the House.
Several of the Wagner performances are with the BPO.
Oh, and the sound is certainly not modern studio quality, but it's not
bad at all; I'd say good for live recordings from the 50s.
Live? Isn't this the studio performance that was issued on DG way back
when?

--Jeff
EM
2006-03-08 23:48:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Isn't this the studio performance that was issued on DG way back
when?
I have it, (P) 1959, on a DG twofer, which also contains LvB's 5th and
6th symphonies, Egmont overture (VPO/Böhm), Name-Day (OL/Markevitch),
Ruins of Athens (BRSO/Jochum), DG 413 144-2.

EM
Ulvi Yurtsever
2006-03-09 05:14:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by Todd Schurk
Barry-how is the rest of that set...and the sound? Where did you get
it? Thanks.
Todd,
It's available cheap from Berkshire. The only other thing I've listened
to so far is the Beethoven fifth. It's a fine performance, but not one
that will make me forget my favorite recordings of the piece. But
considering that it's a Berkshire special, I'll be happy to have the
set for no other reason than the Consecration of the House.
Several of the Wagner performances are with the BPO.
I believe this is the same performance as in the Markevitch
box from DG original masters series. Right?

At any rate, the latter is a terrific performance.

Ulvi
David Wake
2006-03-08 19:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
FINALLY, after years of searching, I've found a recording of the
Consecration of the House Overture that completely satisfies me from
start to finish. I always seem to have a problem with one section being
off either in terms of tempo or the brass being virtually inaudible.
But the Markevitch/Lamoureux Orchestra performance on Living Stage,
part of a two-disc set of Beethoven and Wagner performances, does the
trick.
My search is over, and I can finally make my compilation disc of
favorite Beethoven overture recordings!
Barry
Out of interest, what else would be on that compilation disc?

David
b***@phillynews.com
2006-03-08 19:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Wake
Out of interest, what else would be on that compilation disc?
David
Beethoven, Symphony #5 + Overtures: Coriolan; Leonore #3; Fidelio;
Consecration of the House. Wagner, Tannhauser Overture {all w.Lamoureux
Orch.} & Venusberg Music; Ride of the Valkyries; Siegfried Idyll
{w.Berlin Phil.} (All cond. Igor Markevitch. Rec.1957-59)
David Wake
2006-03-08 20:11:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by David Wake
Out of interest, what else would be on that compilation disc?
David
Beethoven, Symphony #5 + Overtures: Coriolan; Leonore #3; Fidelio;
Consecration of the House. Wagner, Tannhauser Overture {all w.Lamoureux
Orch.} & Venusberg Music; Ride of the Valkyries; Siegfried Idyll
{w.Berlin Phil.} (All cond. Igor Markevitch. Rec.1957-59)
No - I meant what else would be on your disc of favorite Beethoven
overtures?

David
Todd Schurk
2006-03-08 20:27:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Wake
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by David Wake
Out of interest, what else would be on that compilation disc?
David
Beethoven, Symphony #5 + Overtures: Coriolan; Leonore #3; Fidelio;
Consecration of the House. Wagner, Tannhauser Overture {all w.Lamoureux
Orch.} & Venusberg Music; Ride of the Valkyries; Siegfried Idyll
{w.Berlin Phil.} (All cond. Igor Markevitch. Rec.1957-59)
No - I meant what else would be on your disc of favorite Beethoven
overtures?
David
Yes Barry-I'm also interested in which Beethoven overture performances
you are putting in your compilation.
b***@phillynews.com
2006-03-08 20:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Wake
No - I meant what else would be on your disc of favorite Beethoven
overtures?
David
Oops. Sorry. It will be:

Coriolon: Furtwangler/wartime
Leonore III: Tennstedt/live at the Met
King Stephen: Scherchen from his complete overtures set
Fidelio: Could be either Klemperer or Scherchen........I'll have to
listen to them again back to back and decide between the two.
Egmont: Furtwangler/VPO live early 50s
And now the Markevitch's Consecration of the House

I can do without the other overtures on my compilation. I've still got
the complete sets by Scherchen and Zinman, as well as other recordings
if I ever feel the need to hear any of them.

Barry
Sol L. Siegel
2006-03-09 05:41:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Leonore III: Tennstedt/live at the Met
Is this a recording that's been available to the public, legit or
otherwise?

FWIW: One of my more disappointing live music experiences was a Met
Fidelio sometime in the mid-'80s with Behrens and Leinsdorf, partly
redeemed by Vickers's Florestan. What really got my teeth grinding
was that end of Leonore III was merged directly into the start of the
chorus that begins the final scene, leaving out Beethoven's grand
orchestral introduction. I hope Tennstedt played the music as
written.

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA
"My reputation has nothing to do with me." - Terry Gilliam
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
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Larry Rinkel
2006-03-09 12:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sol L. Siegel
FWIW: One of my more disappointing live music experiences was a Met
Fidelio sometime in the mid-'80s with Behrens and Leinsdorf, partly
redeemed by Vickers's Florestan. What really got my teeth grinding
was that end of Leonore III was merged directly into the start of the
chorus that begins the final scene, leaving out Beethoven's grand
orchestral introduction. I hope Tennstedt played the music as
written.
You may or may not be happier that in the current production, James Levine
leaves out the Leonore 3 altogether.
b***@phillynews.com
2006-03-09 15:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sol L. Siegel
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Leonore III: Tennstedt/live at the Met
Is this a recording that's been available to the public, legit or
otherwise?
FWIW: One of my more disappointing live music experiences was a Met
Fidelio sometime in the mid-'80s with Behrens and Leinsdorf, partly
redeemed by Vickers's Florestan. What really got my teeth grinding
was that end of Leonore III was merged directly into the start of the
chorus that begins the final scene, leaving out Beethoven's grand
orchestral introduction. I hope Tennstedt played the music as
written.
He did. But I'm not aware of this being commercially available. An old
friend had a tape and sent me a copy. I don't particularly like the
opera, but oh what a performance of the Leonore III.
Barry
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-03-09 05:55:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by David Wake
No - I meant what else would be on your disc of favorite Beethoven
overtures?
David
Coriolon: Furtwangler/wartime
Leonore III: Tennstedt/live at the Met
King Stephen: Scherchen from his complete overtures set
Fidelio: Could be either Klemperer or Scherchen........I'll have to
listen to them again back to back and decide between the two.
Egmont: Furtwangler/VPO live early 50s
And now the Markevitch's Consecration of the House
I can do without the other overtures on my compilation. I've still got
the complete sets by Scherchen and Zinman, as well as other recordings
if I ever feel the need to hear any of them.
You've got to hear Leonore #2 conducted by Weingartner!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
d***@aol.com
2006-03-08 20:43:12 UTC
Permalink
Oddly enough, I don't think I've ever heard the overture live--I wonder
why it's not on the overture hit parade like the Egmont--and, even more
oddly, I don't think I've ever heard any recording but Bernstein's. I
truly love it. I wonder what you think of it.

You've made me curious to hear Markevitch. I'd also be curious to hear
whose recording of each overture ends up in your compilation.

-david gable
b***@phillynews.com
2006-03-08 21:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Oddly enough, I don't think I've ever heard the overture live--I wonder
why it's not on the overture hit parade like the Egmont--and, even more
oddly, I don't think I've ever heard any recording but Bernstein's. I
truly love it. I wonder what you think of it.
You've made me curious to hear Markevitch. I'd also be curious to hear
whose recording of each overture ends up in your compilation.
-david gable
See above for my compilation. As for the Bernstein/NY recording on
Sony, I also picked that one up from Berkshire a few years ago, and as
been the case with so many other recordings, it's wonderful, with the
exception of the march, when, based on memory, I think the problem is
brass that just wasn't loud enough (possibly a miking issue?).

I agree with you though that it's a wonderful overture that should be
performed in concert more often. I've also never heard it live.

Barry
Larry Rinkel
2006-03-09 02:01:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
See above for my compilation. As for the Bernstein/NY recording on
Sony, I also picked that one up from Berkshire a few years ago, and as
been the case with so many other recordings, it's wonderful, with the
exception of the march, when, based on memory, I think the problem is
brass that just wasn't loud enough (possibly a miking issue?).
More likely if we're thinking of the same passage, he's holding the trumpets
back so the bassoons have a fighting chance.
b***@phillynews.com
2006-03-09 03:10:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Rinkel
Post by b***@phillynews.com
See above for my compilation. As for the Bernstein/NY recording on
Sony, I also picked that one up from Berkshire a few years ago, and as
been the case with so many other recordings, it's wonderful, with the
exception of the march, when, based on memory, I think the problem is
brass that just wasn't loud enough (possibly a miking issue?).
More likely if we're thinking of the same passage, he's holding the trumpets
back so the bassoons have a fighting chance.
I just relistened to the Bernstein. And I still think he goes too far
in his efforts to make the bassoons more audible. The trumpets and
strings sound almost like they're in another room. Scherchen does the
same thing. Having the trumpets play a little louder and the strings
come down with some force in that passage adds a degree of stateliness
that is heavenly. I think Markevitch strikes the balance between
trumpets, strings and bassoons better than any other conductor I've
heard. Klemperer and Toscanini are pretty good in that respect too. My
only problem with them is that Toscanini pushes the tempos a bit too
much and Klemperer is just a tad too slow at times. In the Markevitch,
the tempos are a bit on the slow side, but the music seems to flow and
unfold so naturally.

I also listened to both the DG and Living Stage Markevitch releases and
I'm a little embarrassed to say that I think they are the same. The
timing is only a second off. And the DG transfer is a little better. I
guess this isn't the first time my view of a recording changed for the
better over a period of years. This the first time I purchased a Living
Stage release. I assumed they were live recordings that were not the
same as those released on major labels.

In any case, after doing some comparative listening, I still think the
Markevitch is the best of the lot. Zinman's is just too HIP sounding
for my taste. I used to have Muti and Abbado, but neither of them are
competitive.
Barry
j***@aol.com
2006-03-09 07:05:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by Larry Rinkel
Post by b***@phillynews.com
See above for my compilation. As for the Bernstein/NY recording on
Sony, I also picked that one up from Berkshire a few years ago, and as
been the case with so many other recordings, it's wonderful, with the
exception of the march, when, based on memory, I think the problem is
brass that just wasn't loud enough (possibly a miking issue?).
More likely if we're thinking of the same passage, he's holding the trumpets
back so the bassoons have a fighting chance.
I just relistened to the Bernstein. And I still think he goes too far
in his efforts to make the bassoons more audible. The trumpets and
strings sound almost like they're in another room. Scherchen does the
same thing. Having the trumpets play a little louder and the strings
come down with some force in that passage adds a degree of stateliness
that is heavenly. I think Markevitch strikes the balance between
trumpets, strings and bassoons better than any other conductor I've
heard. Klemperer and Toscanini are pretty good in that respect too. My
only problem with them is that Toscanini pushes the tempos a bit too
much and Klemperer is just a tad too slow at times. In the Markevitch,
the tempos are a bit on the slow side, but the music seems to flow and
unfold so naturally.
I also listened to both the DG and Living Stage Markevitch releases and
I'm a little embarrassed to say that I think they are the same. The
timing is only a second off. And the DG transfer is a little better. I
guess this isn't the first time my view of a recording changed for the
better over a period of years. This the first time I purchased a Living
Stage release. I assumed they were live recordings that were not the
same as those released on major labels.
In any case, after doing some comparative listening, I still think the
Markevitch is the best of the lot. Zinman's is just too HIP sounding
for my taste. I used to have Muti and Abbado, but neither of them are
competitive.
Barry
I like Markevitch on DG too, but I'm not sure I consider him superior
to Rosbaud, Van Kempen, Van Beinum and Munch in this piece.

--Jeff
b***@phillynews.com
2006-03-09 15:29:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
I like Markevitch on DG too, but I'm not sure I consider him superior
to Rosbaud, Van Kempen, Van Beinum and Munch in this piece.
--Jeff
Haven't heard any of those, although I've had my eye on the Munch, also
available at BRO I believe, for a while. That's the one with a French
orchestra, right?
Barry
j***@aol.com
2006-03-09 16:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by j***@aol.com
I like Markevitch on DG too, but I'm not sure I consider him superior
to Rosbaud, Van Kempen, Van Beinum and Munch in this piece.
--Jeff
Haven't heard any of those, although I've had my eye on the Munch, also
available at BRO I believe, for a while. That's the one with a French
orchestra, right?
Barry
That's the one.

--Jeff
Paul Goldstein
2006-03-09 16:00:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by Larry Rinkel
Post by b***@phillynews.com
See above for my compilation. As for the Bernstein/NY recording on
Sony, I also picked that one up from Berkshire a few years ago, and as
been the case with so many other recordings, it's wonderful, with the
exception of the march, when, based on memory, I think the problem is
brass that just wasn't loud enough (possibly a miking issue?).
More likely if we're thinking of the same passage, he's holding the trumpets
back so the bassoons have a fighting chance.
I just relistened to the Bernstein. And I still think he goes too far
in his efforts to make the bassoons more audible. The trumpets and
strings sound almost like they're in another room. Scherchen does the
same thing. Having the trumpets play a little louder and the strings
come down with some force in that passage adds a degree of stateliness
that is heavenly. I think Markevitch strikes the balance between
trumpets, strings and bassoons better than any other conductor I've
heard. Klemperer and Toscanini are pretty good in that respect too. My
only problem with them is that Toscanini pushes the tempos a bit too
much and Klemperer is just a tad too slow at times. In the Markevitch,
the tempos are a bit on the slow side, but the music seems to flow and
unfold so naturally.
I also listened to both the DG and Living Stage Markevitch releases and
I'm a little embarrassed to say that I think they are the same. The
timing is only a second off. And the DG transfer is a little better. I
guess this isn't the first time my view of a recording changed for the
better over a period of years. This the first time I purchased a Living
Stage release. I assumed they were live recordings that were not the
same as those released on major labels.
In any case, after doing some comparative listening, I still think the
Markevitch is the best of the lot. Zinman's is just too HIP sounding
for my taste. I used to have Muti and Abbado, but neither of them are
competitive.
Barry
I like Markevitch on DG too, but I'm not sure I consider him superior
to Rosbaud, Van Kempen, Van Beinum and Munch in this piece.
Klemperer does it for me, also the Bernstein mentioned earlier.
Norman M. Schwartz
2006-03-09 19:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
I just relistened to the Bernstein. And I still think he goes too far
in his efforts to make the bassoons more audible. The trumpets and
strings sound almost like they're in another room. Scherchen does the
same thing. Having the trumpets play a little louder and the strings
come down with some force in that passage adds a degree of stateliness
that is heavenly.
I have the Bernstein COTH (timing 9:53), amongst others (Silverstein,
ProArte and Skrowaczewski, Vox).
Could you please provide the timing in Bernstein's recording where this
bassoon, trumpet, string balance appears so that I might pick it out? So far
I haven't been able to discern it.
b***@phillynews.com
2006-03-09 19:36:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Norman M. Schwartz
I have the Bernstein COTH (timing 9:53), amongst others (Silverstein,
ProArte and Skrowaczewski, Vox).
Could you please provide the timing in Bernstein's recording where this
bassoon, trumpet, string balance appears so that I might pick it out? So far
I haven't been able to discern it.
I don't have it handy. If nobody else provides the information by
tonight, I'll take care of it when I get home. But it's relatively
early in the piece (perhaps three minutes or so in), during the
march-like passage.
Barry
Norman M. Schwartz
2006-03-10 00:18:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by Norman M. Schwartz
I have the Bernstein COTH (timing 9:53), amongst others (Silverstein,
ProArte and Skrowaczewski, Vox).
Could you please provide the timing in Bernstein's recording where this
bassoon, trumpet, string balance appears so that I might pick it out? So far
I haven't been able to discern it.
I don't have it handy. If nobody else provides the information by
tonight, I'll take care of it when I get home. But it's relatively
early in the piece (perhaps three minutes or so in), during the
march-like passage.
Many thanks. It helped to look for it in the first three minutes rather than
the last 3 minutes. In LB's performance I believe I'm hearing it at 2:38,
but it's rather subdued. In the Vox Skrowaczewski it's very prominent (2:47)
and sounds more extended than Bernstein's. Are there differing scores of
this piece in circulation?
Larry Rinkel
2006-03-10 03:54:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Norman M. Schwartz
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by Norman M. Schwartz
I have the Bernstein COTH (timing 9:53), amongst others (Silverstein,
ProArte and Skrowaczewski, Vox).
Could you please provide the timing in Bernstein's recording where this
bassoon, trumpet, string balance appears so that I might pick it out? So far
I haven't been able to discern it.
I don't have it handy. If nobody else provides the information by
tonight, I'll take care of it when I get home. But it's relatively
early in the piece (perhaps three minutes or so in), during the
march-like passage.
Many thanks. It helped to look for it in the first three minutes rather
than the last 3 minutes. In LB's performance I believe I'm hearing it at
2:38, but it's rather subdued. In the Vox Skrowaczewski it's very
prominent (2:47) and sounds more extended than Bernstein's. Are there
differing scores of this piece in circulation?
No, but if the balance favors either the trumpets or the bassoons, I can see
why you might react that way. When I studied orchestration we were told that
the bassoon in its mid-range was easily covered by other instruments, and
that seems to be what's happening here -- unless the conductor holds back
the trumpets and timpani. However, during Beethoven's time it was not
unusual for wind parts to be doubled especially when needed to reinforce
tuttis, and string sections were smaller than in our time. (See Thomas
Forest Kelly's "First Nights" for some useful information on the concert of
May 7, 1824, when the 9th symphony was first performed, preceded by the
Consecration overture and three movements from the Missa Solemnis.) These
doublings could therefore help explain the balance problem for the bassoons
in the Overture, as well as a passage like the 2nd theme in the scherzo of
the 9th, which is written solely for the four pairs of woodwinds against
accompanying horns and strings, but is sometimes today reinforced with horns
carrying the melody part to help improve the balance.

There is an even more puzzling use of the bassoons midway in the Credo of
the Missa, at a point following the Et resurrexit but preceding the Et vitam
venturi fugue, where the chorus is repeating Credo, Credo! and the bassoons
have an independent contrapuntal line all to themselves for about 12
measures. Without going through my several recordings I can't remember how
the conductors treat this part, but I distinctly remember that Toscanini
doubles the bassoons with horns here, as they could easily be swallowed up
otherwise.
Larry
2006-03-10 15:46:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Rinkel
There is an even more puzzling use of the bassoons midway in the Credo of
the Missa, at a point following the Et resurrexit but preceding the Et vitam
venturi fugue, where the chorus is repeating Credo, Credo! and the bassoons
have an independent contrapuntal line all to themselves for about 12
measures. Without going through my several recordings I can't remember how
the conductors treat this part, but I distinctly remember that Toscanini
doubles the bassoons with horns here, as they could easily be swallowed up
otherwise.
And in fact I pulled the Zinman off the shelf and listened to the Credo
en route to work this morning. In this version the bassoon lines I
spoke of yesterday are almost totally inaudible. But then again I don't
like this recording much anyway; for my taste it just tries to get
through the thing as fast as possible . . . .
Lena
2006-03-10 19:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry
Post by Larry Rinkel
There is an even more puzzling use of the bassoons midway in the Credo of
the Missa, at a point following the Et resurrexit but preceding the Et vitam
venturi fugue, where the chorus is repeating Credo, Credo! and the bassoons
have an independent contrapuntal line all to themselves for about 12
measures. Without going through my several recordings I can't remember how
the conductors treat this part, but I distinctly remember that Toscanini
doubles the bassoons with horns here, as they could easily be swallowed up
otherwise.
And in fact I pulled the Zinman off the shelf and listened to the Credo
en route to work this morning. In this version the bassoon lines I
spoke of yesterday are almost totally inaudible.
The advantage of historical recordings is that the balances are
impeccable: everything is almost totally inaudible... (Not an opinion
on MS, which is in a fairly exalted category afaic.)
Post by Larry
But then again I don't
like this recording much anyway; for my taste it just tries to get
through the thing as fast as possible . . . .
Did your car-pool companions appreciate Zinman's consideration?

I've never tried to find a hit Consecration of the House, though I like
the overture a lot, and have several versions, mostly amassed by
accident. What is the current status of the recommended standouts?
(Besides Markevitch and the never not recommended Bernstein.)

Lena
j***@aol.com
2006-03-10 20:04:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lena
I've never tried to find a hit Consecration of the House, though I like
the overture a lot, and have several versions, mostly amassed by
accident. What is the current status of the recommended standouts?
(Besides Markevitch and the never not recommended Bernstein.)
Three copies of the Rosbaud are available from Amazon z-shops.
Otherwise, I think my other recommendations mentioned earlier (Munch,
Van Beinum, Van Kempen) are all unavailable.

--Jeff
b***@phillynews.com
2006-03-10 20:20:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Lena
I've never tried to find a hit Consecration of the House, though I like
the overture a lot, and have several versions, mostly amassed by
accident. What is the current status of the recommended standouts?
(Besides Markevitch and the never not recommended Bernstein.)
Three copies of the Rosbaud are available from Amazon z-shops.
Otherwise, I think my other recommendations mentioned earlier (Munch,
Van Beinum, Van Kempen) are all unavailable.
--Jeff
The Munch is available at BRO:

Beethoven, Symphonies 4 & 7; Consecration of the House Overture.
Schumann, Symphony #4. Brahms, Symphony #2. (Orchestre National de
France/ Munch. Rec. 1963-66)
Add to cart | Price: $ 7.98 | 2 in set. | Country: GERMANY | D/A code:
M | Code: LS 1032 | BRO Code: 123759 | Label: LIVING STAGE
Genre: Symphonies

Those who generally like Toscanini's Beethoven ,will probably like his
recording of the Consecration of the House Overture. I generally
dislike his Beethoven, but am mixed on the overture. I like his
balances. There are some real high points, but there is still that sort
of mechanical feel with the choppy-sounding notes and slightly rushed
tempo at times.
Likewise with Klemperer, but in reverse.

Barry
Lena
2006-03-10 22:41:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Lena
I've never tried to find a hit Consecration of the House, though I like
the overture a lot, and have several versions, mostly amassed by
accident. What is the current status of the recommended standouts?
(Besides Markevitch and the never not recommended Bernstein.)
Three copies of the Rosbaud are available from Amazon z-shops.
Otherwise, I think my other recommendations mentioned earlier (Munch,
Van Beinum, Van Kempen) are all unavailable.
--Jeff
Beethoven, Symphonies 4 & 7; Consecration of the House Overture.
Schumann, Symphony #4. Brahms, Symphony #2. (Orchestre National de
France/ Munch. Rec. 1963-66)
M | Code: LS 1032 | BRO Code: 123759 | Label: LIVING STAGE
Genre: Symphonies
Those who generally like Toscanini's Beethoven ,will probably like his
recording of the Consecration of the House Overture. I generally
dislike his Beethoven, but am mixed on the overture. I like his
balances. There are some real high points, but there is still that sort
of mechanical feel with the choppy-sounding notes and slightly rushed
tempo at times.
Thanks very much. I'll get the Munch. (I have the Toscanini.)
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Likewise with Klemperer, but in reverse.
(Laugh) I'm not sure what "in reverse" means, in this context, but it
sounds good anyway.

Lena
b***@phillynews.com
2006-03-10 22:44:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lena
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Likewise with Klemperer, but in reverse.
(Laugh) I'm not sure what "in reverse" means, in this context, but it
sounds good anyway.
Lena
:) I meant a bit too slow instead of a bit too fast, like Toscanini.

Barry
Lena
2006-03-11 20:02:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by Lena
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Likewise with Klemperer, but in reverse.
(Laugh) I'm not sure what "in reverse" means, in this context, but it
sounds good anyway.
Lena
:) I meant a bit too slow instead of a bit too fast, like Toscanini.
Yes; that was probably overly wishful thinking about Klemperer's sense
of anarchy...

Lena
Lena
2006-03-10 22:36:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Lena
I've never tried to find a hit Consecration of the House, though I like
the overture a lot, and have several versions, mostly amassed by
accident. What is the current status of the recommended standouts?
(Besides Markevitch and the never not recommended Bernstein.)
Three copies of the Rosbaud are available from Amazon z-shops.
Otherwise, I think my other recommendations mentioned earlier (Munch,
Van Beinum, Van Kempen) are all unavailable.
Thanks, Jeff. To you, or all the other highly qualified personnel - is
there only one version of Klemperer's Consecration?

Lena
j***@aol.com
2006-03-11 00:25:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lena
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Lena
I've never tried to find a hit Consecration of the House, though I like
the overture a lot, and have several versions, mostly amassed by
accident. What is the current status of the recommended standouts?
(Besides Markevitch and the never not recommended Bernstein.)
Three copies of the Rosbaud are available from Amazon z-shops.
Otherwise, I think my other recommendations mentioned earlier (Munch,
Van Beinum, Van Kempen) are all unavailable.
Thanks, Jeff. To you, or all the other highly qualified personnel - is
there only one version of Klemperer's Consecration?
Lena
My Klemperer is a 1960 EMI. I think it is the same one on an old lp
that first introduced me to the work--one of those brownish textured
covered jobs with the black dowel spine to the sleeve (coupled with the
5th Symphony?).

I have a live Klemperer "Creatures" and "Egmont" from the Vienna
Festival cycle of the same vintage--not sure if they did Consecration
of the House in those concerts. If so, it might be on Arkadia or
another label.

--Jeff
j***@aol.com
2006-03-11 02:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Lena
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Lena
I've never tried to find a hit Consecration of the House, though I like
the overture a lot, and have several versions, mostly amassed by
accident. What is the current status of the recommended standouts?
(Besides Markevitch and the never not recommended Bernstein.)
Three copies of the Rosbaud are available from Amazon z-shops.
Otherwise, I think my other recommendations mentioned earlier (Munch,
Van Beinum, Van Kempen) are all unavailable.
Thanks, Jeff. To you, or all the other highly qualified personnel - is
there only one version of Klemperer's Consecration?
Lena
My Klemperer is a 1960 EMI. I think it is the same one on an old lp
that first introduced me to the work--one of those brownish textured
covered jobs with the black dowel spine to the sleeve (coupled with the
5th Symphony?).
I have a live Klemperer "Creatures" and "Egmont" from the Vienna
Festival cycle of the same vintage--not sure if they did Consecration
of the House in those concerts. If so, it might be on Arkadia or
another label.
--Jeff
Oh, and don't forget the live Scherchen Lugano performance that Tahra
released. The intro is slooowww, but the whole thing crackles and the
counterpoint is...no surprise...scintillating. It's Scherchen's
specialty of course.

--Jeff
Lena
2006-03-11 19:55:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Oh, and don't forget the live Scherchen Lugano performance that Tahra
released. The intro is slooowww, but the whole thing crackles and the
counterpoint is...no surprise...scintillating. It's Scherchen's
specialty of course.
I have one Scherchen. Not sure if it's Lugano, but at least it seems
to conform to the prevalent standards governing manifestations of
Scherchenishness.

Lena
Simon Roberts
2006-03-28 16:09:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Oh, and don't forget the live Scherchen Lugano performance that Tahra
released. The intro is slooowww, but the whole thing crackles and the
counterpoint is...no surprise...scintillating. It's Scherchen's
specialty of course.
If you like slooowww introductions, you must hear Tate/Dresden/Berlin Classics,
who takes the opening so slowly that it might take some a while to realize what
the music is. I find it oddly appealing, even if hardly what I want to hear all
the time.

As for the bassoon/trumpet/timpani balance problem, too many performances fail
by trying to "fix" it - the fix in question usually being to make the trumpets
and timpani sound timid, which kills the music dead, as far as I'm concerned.
Karajan has the right idea (I'm not wild about the rest of his performance) the
trumpets and timpani don't sound at all restrained, and there's no attempt to
make the bassoons equal partners (why should they be?), though I wouldn't be
surprised if they got a bit of help from the engineers. I would like to hear a
decent HIP performance; period timpani hit with hard sticks and period trumpets
make less noise than their modern counterparts and would perhaps make less sound
relative to the bassoons, thereby resulting in less of a balance "problem" in
the first place. The only such performance I've encountered was Goodman's on
Nimbus, which hardly counts.

Simon
--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth
Heck51
2006-03-28 18:44:31 UTC
Permalink
Simon Roberts writes:

<<I would like to hear a decent HIP performance; .......period trumpets
make less noise than their modern counterparts and would perhaps make
less sound relative to the bassoons, thereby resulting in less of a
balance "problem" in the first place.>>

use period trumpets, with modern bassoons, and you might have it!! :)
Matthew Silverstein
2006-03-28 19:05:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heck51
use period trumpets, with modern bassoons, and you might have it!! :)
That's what Harnoncourt does on his disc of Beethoven overtures. Too
bad he doesn't include Consecration of the House!

Matty

Lena
2006-03-11 19:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Lena
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Lena
I've never tried to find a hit Consecration of the House, though I like
the overture a lot, and have several versions, mostly amassed by
accident. What is the current status of the recommended standouts?
(Besides Markevitch and the never not recommended Bernstein.)
Three copies of the Rosbaud are available from Amazon z-shops.
Otherwise, I think my other recommendations mentioned earlier (Munch,
Van Beinum, Van Kempen) are all unavailable.
Thanks, Jeff. To you, or all the other highly qualified personnel - is
there only one version of Klemperer's Consecration?
Lena
My Klemperer is a 1960 EMI.
TY, I suppose that's the version that exists in various collections.
Post by j***@aol.com
I think it is the same one on an old lp
that first introduced me to the work--one of those brownish textured
covered jobs with the black dowel spine to the sleeve (coupled with the
5th Symphony?).
Black dowel spines? :) I feel unqualified to comment; since all my
exotic LP material is supplied by The Hobgoblins (who might or might
not intersect MT's agglomerated Friends).
Post by j***@aol.com
I have a live Klemperer "Creatures" and "Egmont" from the Vienna
Festival cycle of the same vintage--not sure if they did Consecration
of the House in those concerts. If so, it might be on Arkadia or
another label.
OK; I'll get hold of the standard one first. Thanks!

Lena
Vaneyes
2006-03-10 01:48:56 UTC
Permalink
....I used to have Muti and Abbado, but neither of them are
competitive.
Haven't heard the Abbado. I had Muti's cw Eroica on Emi Red Line.
Didn't keep it.

Heard/saw PhillyO/Muti do it in Seattle (1990). Much better. Though,
I'm not a big fan of the piece. Maybe I'm not alone. It's often the
orphan in CD collections of LvB Overtures.

Regards
Lena
2006-03-10 06:04:54 UTC
Permalink
***@phillynews.com wrote:

[...]
Post by b***@phillynews.com
I also listened to both the DG and Living Stage Markevitch releases and
I'm a little embarrassed to say that I think they are the same. The
timing is only a second off. And the DG transfer is a little better.
Agh. Too bad I was trigger-happy and ordered this from BRO before you
relistened. :)

Lena
Larry Rinkel
2006-03-10 12:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lena
[...]
Post by b***@phillynews.com
I also listened to both the DG and Living Stage Markevitch releases and
I'm a little embarrassed to say that I think they are the same. The
timing is only a second off. And the DG transfer is a little better.
Agh. Too bad I was trigger-happy and ordered this from BRO before you
relistened. :)
Lena
Is the DG available otherwise than as part of that 9-CD box?
Lena
2006-03-10 19:49:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Rinkel
Post by Lena
[...]
Post by b***@phillynews.com
I also listened to both the DG and Living Stage Markevitch releases and
I'm a little embarrassed to say that I think they are the same. The
timing is only a second off. And the DG transfer is a little better.
Agh. Too bad I was trigger-happy and ordered this from BRO before you
relistened. :)
Lena
Is the DG available otherwise than as part of that 9-CD box?
I don't know - it appears that it was, at one point. But if it isn't,
thank you for rescuing my BRO order... (and I take back the Agh).

Lena.
Frank Berger
2006-03-08 20:46:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
FINALLY, after years of searching, I've found a recording of the
Consecration of the House Overture that completely satisfies me from
start to finish. I always seem to have a problem with one section being
off either in terms of tempo or the brass being virtually inaudible.
But the Markevitch/Lamoureux Orchestra performance on Living Stage,
part of a two-disc set of Beethoven and Wagner performances, does the
trick.
My search is over, and I can finally make my compilation disc of
favorite Beethoven overture recordings!
Barry
I believe that "Consecration" is also in the DG Markevich box.
Sacqueboutier
2006-03-08 20:51:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by b***@phillynews.com
FINALLY, after years of searching, I've found a recording of the
Consecration of the House Overture that completely satisfies me from
start to finish. I always seem to have a problem with one section being
off either in terms of tempo or the brass being virtually inaudible.
But the Markevitch/Lamoureux Orchestra performance on Living Stage,
part of a two-disc set of Beethoven and Wagner performances, does the
trick.
My search is over, and I can finally make my compilation disc of
favorite Beethoven overture recordings!
Barry
I believe that "Consecration" is also in the DG Markevich box.
There is a Consecration in that box, but whether the two recordings are one
and the same, I cannot say.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
b***@phillynews.com
2006-03-08 20:58:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Frank Berger
I believe that "Consecration" is also in the DG Markevich box.
There is a Consecration in that box, but whether the two recordings are one
and the same, I cannot say.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
I think they are different. I also have the DG one somewhere at home
and recall liking it for the most part, but one aspect of it disturbing
me. I'll see if I can find it tonight and give it a listen, as well as
comparing the timing with the one in the Living Stage set.

Barry
Michael Schaffer
2006-03-09 17:52:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Frank Berger
I believe that "Consecration" is also in the DG Markevich box.
There is a Consecration in that box, but whether the two recordings are one
and the same, I cannot say.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
I think they are different. I also have the DG one somewhere at home
and recall liking it for the most part, but one aspect of it disturbing
me. I'll see if I can find it tonight and give it a listen, as well as
comparing the timing with the one in the Living Stage set.
Barry
For The Consecration of the House, have you ever tried Staatskapelle
Dresden/Jeffrey Tate (EMI). I haven't listened to it in a long time, so
I have no recollection of that particular passage, but I remember the
performance (coupled with Beethoven 7) as a whole as a very thoroughly
prepared and detail-conscious reading of these pieces.
Another Beethoven overture favorite recording of mine is the Wiener
Philharmoniker/Leonard Bernstein (DG) in "King Stephen". I think LB
gets the piece just right and the orchestra sounds great.
b***@phillynews.com
2006-03-09 18:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
For The Consecration of the House, have you ever tried Staatskapelle
Dresden/Jeffrey Tate (EMI). I haven't listened to it in a long time, so
I have no recollection of that particular passage, but I remember the
performance (coupled with Beethoven 7) as a whole as a very thoroughly
prepared and detail-conscious reading of these pieces.
Another Beethoven overture favorite recording of mine is the Wiener
Philharmoniker/Leonard Bernstein (DG) in "King Stephen". I think LB
gets the piece just right and the orchestra sounds great.
No to the Tate. I'll grab it if I see it.

I've heard Bernstein's NY King Stephen, but not the Vienna recording. I
liked the one with the NY Phil, but the Scherchen King Stephen is one
of my very favorite recordings of anything; period. It's such a fun
performance that I have to fight from dancing around the room whenever
I hear it.
Barry
Michael Schaffer
2006-03-09 19:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
Post by Michael Schaffer
For The Consecration of the House, have you ever tried Staatskapelle
Dresden/Jeffrey Tate (EMI). I haven't listened to it in a long time, so
I have no recollection of that particular passage, but I remember the
performance (coupled with Beethoven 7) as a whole as a very thoroughly
prepared and detail-conscious reading of these pieces.
Another Beethoven overture favorite recording of mine is the Wiener
Philharmoniker/Leonard Bernstein (DG) in "King Stephen". I think LB
gets the piece just right and the orchestra sounds great.
No to the Tate. I'll grab it if I see it.
I don't have it within reach to check that particular passage, but I
think you will not be disappointed by the CD in general. Not the most
exciting, "revealing" Beethoven you have ever heard, but very solid,
sturdy, maybe "klemperian" performances with an emphasis on good
balance, fine detail and rhythmical continuity, all in a very pleasing
sound provided by the SD and recorded very well by EMI in a warm, round
sound which does the orchestra much better justice than the sometimes a
little shrill EMI recordings from the 70s.
Post by b***@phillynews.com
I've heard Bernstein's NY King Stephen, but not the Vienna recording. I
liked the one with the NY Phil, but the Scherchen King Stephen is one
of my very favorite recordings of anything; period. It's such a fun
performance that I have to fight from dancing around the room whenever
I hear it.
Barry
EM
2006-03-09 23:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
For The Consecration of the House, have you ever tried Staatskapelle
Dresden/Jeffrey Tate (EMI). I haven't listened to it in a long time, so
I have no recollection of that particular passage, but I remember the
performance (coupled with Beethoven 7) as a whole as a very thoroughly
prepared and detail-conscious reading of these pieces.
I had that 7th (can't remember if the Consecration of the House was on
the disk), but got rid of it again quickly. It was the most boring
performance of the 7th I have ever heard at the time.

EM
Michael Schaffer
2006-03-10 00:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by EM
Post by Michael Schaffer
For The Consecration of the House, have you ever tried Staatskapelle
Dresden/Jeffrey Tate (EMI). I haven't listened to it in a long time, so
I have no recollection of that particular passage, but I remember the
performance (coupled with Beethoven 7) as a whole as a very thoroughly
prepared and detail-conscious reading of these pieces.
I had that 7th (can't remember if the Consecration of the House was on
the disk), but got rid of it again quickly. It was the most boring
performance of the 7th I have ever heard at the time.
EM
Maybe you should have kept it and revisited it after some time. It has
a lot to offer. Apparently you didn't catch that because you had
expected or were used to something different. But sometimes having a
little patience and not getting rid of things which don't meet our
expectations *very quickly* can expand our horizon. I know it works for
me all the time.
EM
2006-03-10 12:54:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Maybe you should have kept it and revisited it after some time. It has
a lot to offer. Apparently you didn't catch that because you had
expected or were used to something different.
Assumptions, my dear fellow, and silly assumptions they are. I had at
the time, and still have, a substantial collection of 7ths, and there
wasn't, and still is, no room for Tate's unnecessary recording.
I know a guy who always likes, or claims to like, what no one else
likes. It's his way of maintaining a fragile identity in a complex
world he can't quite cope with. Harmless person though.

EM
Michael Schaffer
2006-03-10 13:11:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by EM
Post by Michael Schaffer
Maybe you should have kept it and revisited it after some time. It has
a lot to offer. Apparently you didn't catch that because you had
expected or were used to something different.
Assumptions, my dear fellow, and silly assumptions they are. I had at
the time, and still have, a substantial collection of 7ths, and there
wasn't, and still is, no room for Tate's unnecessary recording.
I know a guy who always likes, or claims to like, what no one else
likes. It's his way of maintaining a fragile identity in a complex
world he can't quite cope with. Harmless person though.
EM
That is very deep. I don't think the Tate recording is such an outsider
recommendation though. I think it was generally quite well received,
but not exactly ecstatically by anyone. I am not too ecstatical about
it either. My favorite recordings of this symphony tend to come from
very different approaches (e.g., C.Kleiber, Harnoncourt). But I did
find some good music making and substance in this recording. I can see
why the somewhat dark, brooding, heavy approach does not satisfy
everyone in this piece. But I liked the precision, especially of rhythm
and articulation, and the steady conviction with which this performance
progresses.
Anyway, all I am saying is that I often read reactions to various
recordings like "I hated it and got rid of it immediately". In those
cases, the whemence of the reaction often makes me wonder if the
listener simply "didn't get it". I personally like to set a recording
aside and revisit it some time if my first impression wasn't favorable,
as long as the basic substance is there (meaning as long as the
performance is professionally well done). I often later found
interesting aspects to recordings that I hadn't seen at first. I don't
recall what my first impression was of this particular recording.
Probably not very good either, as I got it at a time when I listened to
a lot of more "classicist" or "HIP" recordings of Beethoven symphonies.
But I kept it and listen to it once in a while and generally still find
some good things in it.
Michael Schaffer
2006-03-10 13:14:05 UTC
Permalink
I forgot: what I do actually like about Tate's performance is just how
much inner detail and structure he makes audible. That does come at a
price, the generally slow tempi, but I don't find them unbearable
because these slow tempi are filled with very rhythmically precise and
well articulated playing (that's what I meant by that earlier).
j***@aol.com
2006-03-10 19:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
I forgot: what I do actually like about Tate's performance is just how
much inner detail and structure he makes audible. That does come at a
price, the generally slow tempi, but I don't find them unbearable
because these slow tempi are filled with very rhythmically precise and
well articulated playing (that's what I meant by that earlier).
The word "klemperian" said all of that to me.

--Jeff
Dave Cook
2006-03-08 23:53:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@phillynews.com
But the Markevitch/Lamoureux Orchestra performance on Living Stage,
I have a Markevitch recording of this as filler on a DG release with Bohm's
Symphonies 5 & 6 that I got from BRO years ago. It's in a rather odd jewel
box that opens on both front and back, sort of like one of those old Ace
Double books that you flipped over and read from the other end when you
finished reading the first side.

Dave Cook
Sacqueboutier
2006-03-09 01:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Cook
Post by b***@phillynews.com
But the Markevitch/Lamoureux Orchestra performance on Living Stage,
I have a Markevitch recording of this as filler on a DG release with Bohm's
Symphonies 5 & 6 that I got from BRO years ago. It's in a rather odd jewel
box that opens on both front and back, sort of like one of those old Ace
Double books that you flipped over and read from the other end when you
finished reading the first side.
Dave Cook
Yes, I have an older issue of Steinberg's Holst/Planets coupled with Jochum's
Elgar/Enigma in the same type of case. I've since bought the Planets
in the Originals
issue, but keep the older one for Jochum's surprisingly wonderful Enigma.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
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