Discussion:
Music...
(too old to reply)
MELMOTH13
2020-08-12 14:35:19 UTC
Permalink
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....

My choice (only one artist per genre) :

Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...

And yours?...
Steve Choe
2020-08-12 17:30:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...
And yours?...
Ciccolini has recorded much more than the Satie he is typically known to have done. Are there any must hear recordings by him?
MELMOTH13
2020-08-12 21:11:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Choe
Ciccolini has recorded much more than the Satie he is typically known to have done. Are there any must hear recordings by him?
https://www.amazon.fr/Aldo-Ciccolini-Enregistrements-1950-1991-Coffret/dp/B002SV3KOM/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_fr_FR=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&crid=2PPFYTZ8OWCJS&dchild=1&keywords=aldo+ciccolini&qid=1597266593&sprefix=aldo+cicc%2Caps%2C182&sr=8-1
Frank Berger
2020-08-12 21:41:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH13
Post by Steve Choe
Ciccolini has recorded much more than the Satie he is
typically known to have done. Are there any must hear
recordings by him?
https://www.amazon.fr/Aldo-Ciccolini-Enregistrements-1950-1991-Coffret/dp/B002SV3KOM/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_fr_FR=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&crid=2PPFYTZ8OWCJS&dchild=1&keywords=aldo+ciccolini&qid=1597266593&sprefix=aldo+cicc%2Caps%2C182&sr=8-1
Relatively little Bach and Beethoven, unless I am mistaken.
JohnGavin
2020-08-12 22:11:13 UTC
Permalink
Aldo Ciccolini recorded all 32 Beethoven Sonatas.
MELMOTH13
2020-08-12 23:08:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Aldo Ciccolini recorded all 32 Beethoven Sonatas.
https://www.amazon.fr/Beethoven-Sonates-pour-piano-Coffret/dp/B000J3CSD0/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_fr_FR=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&dchild=1&keywords=ciccolini+beethoven&qid=1597273684&s=music&sr=1-1
dk
2020-08-12 23:22:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Aldo Ciccolini recorded all 32 Beethoven Sonatas.
... and that was a mistake!

dk
Frank Berger
2020-08-13 00:06:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Aldo Ciccolini recorded all 32 Beethoven Sonatas.
I didn't say zero.
Raymond Hall
2020-08-12 23:54:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Choe
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...
And yours?...
Ciccolini has recorded much more than the Satie he is typically known to have done. Are there any must hear recordings by him?
All 5 Saint-Saens piano concertos from memory. Whether they are must hear is quite subjective really.

Ray Hall, Taree
Bob Harper
2020-08-13 03:25:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by Steve Choe
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...
And yours?...
Ciccolini has recorded much more than the Satie he is typically known to have done. Are there any must hear recordings by him?
All 5 Saint-Saens piano concertos from memory. Whether they are must hear is quite subjective really.
Ray Hall, Taree
They were my imprint versions, and I've always liked them very much.

Bob Harper
dk
2020-08-13 00:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Choe
Ciccolini has recorded much more than the
Satie he is typically known to have done.
Are there any must hear recordings by him?
I heard him doing a phenomenal Liszt cycle
during the 1960s that included the complete
Années De Pèlerinage, however I see only the
first year listed on Discogs

https://www.discogs.com/artist/273804-Aldo-Ciccolini?limit=200

He was very competent in other repertoire,
though nothing groundbreaking IIRC.

dk
JohnGavin
2020-08-13 00:32:47 UTC
Permalink
I heard him doing a phenomenal Liszt cycle
during the 1960s that included the complete
Années De Pèlerinage, however I see only the
first year listed on Discogs

He recorded both. Look at the Ciccolini plays Liszt further down.
This was the recording I got when I was about 15. I liked the sound of this piano. Earth shaking bass. A Bosendorfer perhaps.
It was particularly thrilling in Orage from the Swiss set.

Ciccolini’s recordings always elicited a very neutral feeling in general. I didn’t dislike it, but most of what I heard left me feeling indifferent.
It’s hard to make Scarlatti sound boring, yet I’m afraid Ciccolini managed to do it on his all-Scarlatti recording for EMI. His fellow countryman, Fiorentino was far more interesting IMO.
dk
2020-08-13 06:26:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Ciccolini’s recordings always elicited a very neutral feeling in general.
I didn’t dislike it, but most of what I heard left me feeling indifferent.
He sounded more engaging in live
concerts than he sounds on recordings.

dk
MELMOTH13
2020-08-13 07:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
He sounded more engaging in live
concerts than he sounds on recordings.
Especially since the technical quality of EMI recordings has almost
always been absolutely deplorable ...
Steve Emerson
2020-08-13 02:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Steve Choe
Ciccolini has recorded much more than the
Satie he is typically known to have done.
Are there any must hear recordings by him?
I heard him doing a phenomenal Liszt cycle
during the 1960s that included the complete
Années De Pèlerinage, however I see only the
first year listed on Discogs
https://www.discogs.com/artist/273804-Aldo-Ciccolini?limit=200
He was very competent in other repertoire,
though nothing groundbreaking IIRC.
As John mentions, AC recorded the complete Liszt Annees (for French EMI), i.e. the three years plus the supplement. It's the only complete set of the Annees that I've both heard and liked throughout.

He recorded some of the Beethoven sonatas twice. The late sonatas (last five) were done on a Fazioli. A full cycle is currently available on Cascavelle but was mostly recorded by Bongiovanni, and mostly with a Hamburg Steinway, which sounds terrific; at least in the early sonatas (Opp 2 and 10) -- and I'm very fond of his way with them. Unlike anyone else's, and much more interesting than standard thinking about him might suggest. I haven't heard the other sonatas and am very curious about them.

SE.

Most of AC's career was spent in France. He became a French citizen in 1969.
MELMOTH13
2020-08-13 09:56:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
He was very competent in other repertoire,
though nothing groundbreaking IIRC.

g***@gmail.com
2020-08-18 14:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Choe
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...
And yours?...
Ciccolini has recorded much more than the Satie he is typically known to have done. Are there any must hear recordings by him?
Decades ago, I heard his Seraphim lp of Goyescas.

Although I am no judge of pianists, the impression I got was that was that he was a bit self-conscious and studied, i.e., he didn't go on to the next note until he was absolutely satisfied with the sound of the note he was presently playing.

Subsequently I heard De Laroccha's recording of that piece and realized that if Ciccolini had managed to captured the letter of Granado's music, then De Laroccha had captured the spirit and flow of the music.
JohnGavin
2020-08-18 14:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Decades ago, I heard his Seraphim lp of Goyescas.

Although I am no judge of pianists, the impression I got was that was that he was a bit self-conscious and studied, i.e., he didn't go on to the next note until he was absolutely satisfied with the sound of the note he was presently playing.

Subsequently I heard De Laroccha's recording of that piece and realized that if Ciccolini had managed to captured the letter of Granado's music, then De Laroccha had captured the spirit and flow of the music.

Very well said. My perception as well.

I also gave Ciccolini’s Debussy’s Etudes a listen. I couldn’t hear anything very special - but I do admire the broadness of his repertoire and his level of accomplishment.
dk
2020-08-21 08:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Steve Choe
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...
And yours?...
Ciccolini has recorded much more than the Satie he is typically known to have done. Are there any must hear recordings by him?
Decades ago, I heard his Seraphim lp of Goyescas.
Although I am no judge of pianists, the impression I got was that was that he was a bit self-conscious and studied, i.e., he didn't go on to the next note until he was absolutely satisfied with the sound of the note he was presently playing.
Subsequently I heard De Laroccha's recording of that piece and realized that if Ciccolini had managed to captured the letter of Granado's music, then De Laroccha had captured the spirit and flow of the music.
Idiotic comparison.

Ciccolini was Italian, not Spanish.
No non-Spanish pianist has ever
been able to capture the spirit
of Spanish piano music. NONE!

dk
Henk vT
2020-08-21 09:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Ciccolini was Italian, not Spanish.
No non-Spanish pianist has ever
been able to capture the spirit
of Spanish piano music. NONE!
An interesting but problematic view. Who is Spanish? Ciccolini was born in Naples, once part of the Spanish empire. Are Mexicans Spanish? Are Catalonians Spanish?

Henk
dk
2020-08-21 11:25:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Ciccolini was Italian, not Spanish.
No non-Spanish pianist has ever
been able to capture the spirit
of Spanish piano music. NONE!
An interesting but problematic view.
Who is Spanish? Ciccolini was born in
Naples, once part of the Spanish empire.
Are Mexicans Spanish?
Leopoldo Querol.
Esteban Sanchez.
Rafael Orozco.
Post by Henk vT
Are Catalonians Spanish?
Not according to many of them.
Henk vT
2020-08-21 15:24:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Leopoldo Querol.
Esteban Sanchez.
Rafael Orozco.
IMO Delaroccha is the standard in Spanish music. Completely different but convincingly so is Sanchez. Orozco is sometimes too romantic. Querol is very uneven. Del Pueyo is always interesting, but maybe too objective. Tagliaferro is very easy to listen to and still very Spanish. Sabater is down to earth (dry, perhaps) but full of drive. Perianes is maybe too refined but a pleasure to listen to. Osorio is often perfect. Prats isn't bad at all and Perez is very good.

What strikes is me is the quality of performances by CKJ pianists. Their interpretations aren't Spanish in a stricter sense but worth listening to. Spanish music can be just music - as a Hungarian rhapsody can be just a rhapsody.

Henk
c***@gmail.com
2020-08-21 17:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Leopoldo Querol.
Esteban Sanchez.
Rafael Orozco.
IMO Delaroccha is the standard in Spanish music. Completely different but convincingly so is Sanchez. Orozco is sometimes too romantic. Querol is very uneven. Del Pueyo is always interesting, but maybe too objective. Tagliaferro is very easy to listen to and still very Spanish. Sabater is down to earth (dry, perhaps) but full of drive. Perianes is maybe too refined but a pleasure to listen to. Osorio is often perfect. Prats isn't bad at all and Perez is very good.
What strikes is me is the quality of performances by CKJ pianists. Their interpretations aren't Spanish in a stricter sense but worth listening to. Spanish music can be just music - as a Hungarian rhapsody can be just a rhapsody.
Henk
Among non-Iberian pianists who have recorded "Iberia," ottomh I'd say that Unwin, Fukuma, Hamelin, Muraro, and Block are better than alright. It occurs to me that the most recent recording I own is Attenelle's (2011, and particularly strong in Books 3 and 4). Has anything essential appeared since then?

AC
Frank Berger
2020-08-21 17:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Leopoldo Querol.
Esteban Sanchez.
Rafael Orozco.
IMO Delaroccha is the standard in Spanish music. Completely different but convincingly so is Sanchez. Orozco is sometimes too romantic. Querol is very uneven. Del Pueyo is always interesting, but maybe too objective. Tagliaferro is very easy to listen to and still very Spanish. Sabater is down to earth (dry, perhaps) but full of drive. Perianes is maybe too refined but a pleasure to listen to. Osorio is often perfect. Prats isn't bad at all and Perez is very good.
What strikes is me is the quality of performances by CKJ pianists. Their interpretations aren't Spanish in a stricter sense but worth listening to. Spanish music can be just music - as a Hungarian rhapsody can be just a rhapsody.
Henk
Clinical Kidney Journal?
Congregation Kehilath Jeshurun?
Calvin Klein Jeans?
dk
2020-08-22 22:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Leopoldo Querol.
Esteban Sanchez.
Rafael Orozco.
IMO Delaroccha is the standard in Spanish music. Completely different but convincingly so is Sanchez. Orozco is sometimes too romantic. Querol is very uneven. Del Pueyo is always interesting, but maybe too objective. Tagliaferro is very easy to listen to and still very Spanish. Sabater is down to earth (dry, perhaps) but full of drive. Perianes is maybe too refined but a pleasure to listen to. Osorio is often perfect. Prats isn't bad at all and Perez is very good.
What strikes is me is the quality of performances by CKJ pianists. Their interpretations aren't Spanish in a stricter sense but worth listening to. Spanish music can be just music - as a Hungarian rhapsody can be just a rhapsody.
Clinical Kidney Journal?
Congregation Kehilath Jeshurun?
Calvin Klein Jeans?
China/Korea/Japan.

dk
Frank Berger
2020-08-23 01:23:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Leopoldo Querol.
Esteban Sanchez.
Rafael Orozco.
IMO Delaroccha is the standard in Spanish music. Completely different but convincingly so is Sanchez. Orozco is sometimes too romantic. Querol is very uneven. Del Pueyo is always interesting, but maybe too objective. Tagliaferro is very easy to listen to and still very Spanish. Sabater is down to earth (dry, perhaps) but full of drive. Perianes is maybe too refined but a pleasure to listen to. Osorio is often perfect. Prats isn't bad at all and Perez is very good.
What strikes is me is the quality of performances by CKJ pianists. Their interpretations aren't Spanish in a stricter sense but worth listening to. Spanish music can be just music - as a Hungarian rhapsody can be just a rhapsody.
Clinical Kidney Journal?
Congregation Kehilath Jeshurun?
Calvin Klein Jeans?
China/Korea/Japan.
dk
I knew I would feel stupid asking. But not knowing about
ethnic or geographical influences on music, it was over my head.
dk
2020-08-23 01:26:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Leopoldo Querol.
Esteban Sanchez.
Rafael Orozco.
IMO Delaroccha is the standard in Spanish music. Completely different but convincingly so is Sanchez. Orozco is sometimes too romantic. Querol is very uneven. Del Pueyo is always interesting, but maybe too objective. Tagliaferro is very easy to listen to and still very Spanish. Sabater is down to earth (dry, perhaps) but full of drive. Perianes is maybe too refined but a pleasure to listen to. Osorio is often perfect. Prats isn't bad at all and Perez is very good.
What strikes is me is the quality of performances by CKJ pianists. Their interpretations aren't Spanish in a stricter sense but worth listening to. Spanish music can be just music - as a Hungarian rhapsody can be just a rhapsody.
Clinical Kidney Journal?
Congregation Kehilath Jeshurun?
Calvin Klein Jeans?
China/Korea/Japan.
I knew I would feel stupid asking. But
not knowing about ethnic or geographical
influences on music, it was over my head.
CKJ is not "about ethnic or geographical
influences on music". It is a convenient
shorthand label for origin of goods. No
different than EU, USA, USSR, etc...

dk
Frank Berger
2020-08-23 03:56:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by dk
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Leopoldo Querol.
Esteban Sanchez.
Rafael Orozco.
IMO Delaroccha is the standard in Spanish music. Completely different but convincingly so is Sanchez. Orozco is sometimes too romantic. Querol is very uneven. Del Pueyo is always interesting, but maybe too objective. Tagliaferro is very easy to listen to and still very Spanish. Sabater is down to earth (dry, perhaps) but full of drive. Perianes is maybe too refined but a pleasure to listen to. Osorio is often perfect. Prats isn't bad at all and Perez is very good.
What strikes is me is the quality of performances by CKJ pianists. Their interpretations aren't Spanish in a stricter sense but worth listening to. Spanish music can be just music - as a Hungarian rhapsody can be just a rhapsody.
Clinical Kidney Journal?
Congregation Kehilath Jeshurun?
Calvin Klein Jeans?
China/Korea/Japan.
I knew I would feel stupid asking. But
not knowing about ethnic or geographical
influences on music, it was over my head.
CKJ is not "about ethnic or geographical
influences on music". It is a convenient
shorthand label for origin of goods. No
different than EU, USA, USSR, etc...
dk
And if someone referred to the quality of performances by
"USA" pianists wouldn't you wonder about what that meant?
Why would there be anything in common about US performers?
dk
2020-08-23 09:33:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by dk
Post by dk
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Leopoldo Querol.
Esteban Sanchez.
Rafael Orozco.
IMO Delaroccha is the standard in Spanish music. Completely different but convincingly so is Sanchez. Orozco is sometimes too romantic. Querol is very uneven. Del Pueyo is always interesting, but maybe too objective. Tagliaferro is very easy to listen to and still very Spanish. Sabater is down to earth (dry, perhaps) but full of drive. Perianes is maybe too refined but a pleasure to listen to. Osorio is often perfect. Prats isn't bad at all and Perez is very good.
What strikes is me is the quality of performances by CKJ pianists. Their interpretations aren't Spanish in a stricter sense but worth listening to. Spanish music can be just music - as a Hungarian rhapsody can be just a rhapsody.
Clinical Kidney Journal?
Congregation Kehilath Jeshurun?
Calvin Klein Jeans?
China/Korea/Japan.
I knew I would feel stupid asking. But
not knowing about ethnic or geographical
influences on music, it was over my head.
CKJ is not "about ethnic or geographical
influences on music". It is a convenient
shorthand label for origin of goods. No
different than EU, USA, USSR, etc...
And if someone referred to the quality of performances by
"USA" pianists wouldn't you wonder about what that meant?
Why would there be anything in common about US performers?
There is. Curtis/Julliard/Peabody tend to
grow the same kind of slapstick pianists.
Like Yuja Wang and Lang van Bang.

dk
Frank Berger
2020-08-23 12:59:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Frank Berger
Post by dk
Post by dk
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Leopoldo Querol.
Esteban Sanchez.
Rafael Orozco.
IMO Delaroccha is the standard in Spanish music. Completely different but convincingly so is Sanchez. Orozco is sometimes too romantic. Querol is very uneven. Del Pueyo is always interesting, but maybe too objective. Tagliaferro is very easy to listen to and still very Spanish. Sabater is down to earth (dry, perhaps) but full of drive. Perianes is maybe too refined but a pleasure to listen to. Osorio is often perfect. Prats isn't bad at all and Perez is very good.
What strikes is me is the quality of performances by CKJ pianists. Their interpretations aren't Spanish in a stricter sense but worth listening to. Spanish music can be just music - as a Hungarian rhapsody can be just a rhapsody.
Clinical Kidney Journal?
Congregation Kehilath Jeshurun?
Calvin Klein Jeans?
China/Korea/Japan.
I knew I would feel stupid asking. But
not knowing about ethnic or geographical
influences on music, it was over my head.
CKJ is not "about ethnic or geographical
influences on music". It is a convenient
shorthand label for origin of goods. No
different than EU, USA, USSR, etc...
And if someone referred to the quality of performances by
"USA" pianists wouldn't you wonder about what that meant?
Why would there be anything in common about US performers?
There is. Curtis/Julliard/Peabody tend to
grow the same kind of slapstick pianists.
Like Yuja Wang and Lang van Bang.
dk
Then your previous answer regarding CKJ was inconsistent,
wasn't it?
dk
2020-08-22 22:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Leopoldo Querol.
Esteban Sanchez.
Rafael Orozco.
IMO Delaroccha is the standard in Spanish music.
Just like Campbell for soup?
Post by Henk vT
Completely different but convincingly so is Sanchez.
Much more like real Spain than DeLarrocha.
Post by Henk vT
Orozco is sometimes too romantic.
Who decides on what is "too romantic"?
Can you point to chapter and verse?
Post by Henk vT
Querol is very uneven.
Yes, he is, however the pieces he does
best are beyond imagination. The way
he suspends time in "El Corpus" is
unmatched by anyone, on record or
off. The Querol Iberia is loaded
permanently in my car's CD changer,
and I listen to it twice a day on
average,
Post by Henk vT
What strikes is me is the quality of
performances by CKJ pianists. Their
interpretations aren't Spanish in a
stricter sense but worth listening to.
Who are you referring to? Kotaro Fukuma?

dk
Henk vT
2020-08-23 09:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Henk vT
IMO Delaroccha is the standard in Spanish music.
Just like Campbell for soup?
Since "Campbell's soup" is great art - yes!
Post by dk
Post by Henk vT
Orozco is sometimes too romantic.
Who decides on what is "too romantic"?
Can you point to chapter and verse?
In this case, I'm chapter and verse. "Sometimes too romantic" refers to tempo, to rubato, but especially to (neo-)romantic coloring. Not like Rachmaninoff, but not completely different either.
Post by dk
Post by Henk vT
What strikes is me is the quality of
performances by CKJ pianists. Their
interpretations aren't Spanish in a
stricter sense but worth listening to.
Who are you referring to? Kotaro Fukuma?
Thanks for mentioning. I must have overlooked the set. I was referring to Okada. His Iberia is great. He's only the first in a long line of youngsters you can find on YT performing Spanish music - quite often remarkably well.

Henk
JohnGavin
2020-08-23 15:29:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Post by Henk vT
IMO Delaroccha is the standard in Spanish music.
Yes, and also one of the greatest pianists of the 20th century as well IMO.

I saw her first in a series of 3 recitals of Spanish music at Hunter College in New York in 1967. She was as great live, if not more so than her recordings.

I’m sure that all the recordings of Iberia mentioned here have aspects and merits that are well worth hearing - yet I have a feeling that the sum total of points (delivery, rhythmic brilliance, sound, clarity) are on DeLarrocha’s side. There is a reason why her Hispavox recording has been in print in one form or another for almost 60 years.
Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Just like Campbell for soup?
Since "Campbell's soup" is great art - yes!
I’m pretty sure that Dave Hurwitz saw these posts and decided to post an episode of his reviews of Iberia recordings on YouTube yesterday. I find his views very reasonable and balanced. I encourage anyone interested to check it out.
Post by Henk vT
Henk
c***@gmail.com
2020-08-23 15:57:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
I’m pretty sure that Dave Hurwitz saw these posts and decided to post an episode of his reviews of Iberia recordings on YouTube yesterday. I find his views very reasonable and balanced. I encourage anyone interested to check it out.
Well, he lost me when he recommended the dry-as-dust Ciccolini and Heisser and then demurred about Hamelin because "he's not a colorist." Huh? But I enjoy his on-screen ebullience and humor anyway. Thanks for the pointer.

AC
Ricardo Jimenez
2020-08-23 16:15:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
I’m pretty sure that Dave Hurwitz saw these posts and decided to post an episode of his reviews of Iberia recordings on YouTube yesterday. I find his views very reasonable and balanced. I encourage anyone interested to check it out.
Well, he lost me when he recommended the dry-as-dust Ciccolini and Heisser and then demurred about Hamelin because "he's not a colorist." Huh? But I enjoy his on-screen ebullience and humor anyway. Thanks for the pointer.
AC
Similar to my attitude towards RMCR, I find his recommendations for
unfamiliar works to try much more useful than his rankings of
recordings of familiar repertory. For example, orchestral music by
Ludvig Irgens-Jensen, Julian Orbón and Luios de Freitas Branco.
v***@protonmail.com
2020-08-23 17:29:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ricardo Jimenez
Post by c***@gmail.com
Post by JohnGavin
I’m pretty sure that Dave Hurwitz saw these posts and decided to post an episode of his reviews of Iberia recordings on YouTube yesterday. I find his views very reasonable and balanced. I encourage anyone interested to check it out.
Well, he lost me when he recommended the dry-as-dust Ciccolini and Heisser and then demurred about Hamelin because "he's not a colorist." Huh? But I enjoy his on-screen ebullience and humor anyway. Thanks for the pointer.
AC
Similar to my attitude towards RMCR, I find his recommendations for
unfamiliar works to try much more useful than his rankings of
recordings of familiar repertory. For example, orchestral music by
Ludvig Irgens-Jensen, Julian Orbón and Luios de Freitas Branco.
I don't know Orbon's orchestral music, but he sure wrote a neat, rarely-recorded piece for
guitar; variously listed as Preludio y Toccata or -y Danza.

C.
Al Eisner
2020-08-26 21:38:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
I’m pretty sure that Dave Hurwitz saw these posts and decided to post an episode of his reviews of Iberia recordings on YouTube yesterday. I find his views very reasonable and balanced. I encourage anyone interested to check it out.
Well, he lost me when he recommended the dry-as-dust Ciccolini and Heisser and then demurred about Hamelin because "he's not a colorist." Huh? But I enjoy his on-screen ebullience and humor anyway. Thanks for the pointer.
AC
In the latter vein, check out his take on the latest release of Glenn
Gould's Bach:

--
Al Eisner
MickeyBoy
2020-08-21 18:18:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Ciccolini was Italian, not Spanish.
No non-Spanish pianist has ever
been able to capture the spirit
of Spanish piano music. NONE!
I'd consider Ciccolini French, despite his place of birth. And what about Frank Marshall and Spanish pianism?
raymond....@gmail.com
2020-08-21 23:52:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Ciccolini was Italian, not Spanish.
No non-Spanish pianist has ever
been able to capture the spirit
of Spanish piano music. NONE!
An interesting but problematic view.
Who is Spanish? Ciccolini was born in
Naples, once part of the Spanish empire.
Are Mexicans Spanish?
Leopoldo Querol.
Esteban Sanchez.
Rafael Orozco.
Post by Henk vT
Are Catalonians Spanish?
Not according to many of them.
They like to be known as Catalonians first, who happen to be Spanish.
Michener captured the essence of Spain in Iberia, a book based on his many travels to Spain up to about 1968. A long read but a good one.

Ray Hall, Taree
JohnGavin
2020-08-21 10:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Steve Choe
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...
And yours?...
Ciccolini has recorded much more than the Satie he is typically known to have done. Are there any must hear recordings by him?
Decades ago, I heard his Seraphim lp of Goyescas.
Although I am no judge of pianists, the impression I got was that was that he was a bit self-conscious and studied, i.e., he didn't go on to the next note until he was absolutely satisfied with the sound of the note he was presently playing.
Subsequently I heard De Laroccha's recording of that piece and realized that if Ciccolini had managed to captured the letter of Granado's music, then De Laroccha had captured the spirit and flow of the music.
Idiotic comparison.
Ciccolini was Italian, not Spanish.
No non-Spanish pianist has ever
been able to capture the spirit
of Spanish piano music. NONE!
dk
DeLarrocha herself said that as a little girl her great inspiration in Spanish piano music was Rubinstein!
dk
2020-08-21 11:30:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by dk
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Steve Choe
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...
And yours?...
Ciccolini has recorded much more than the Satie he is typically known to have done. Are there any must hear recordings by him?
Decades ago, I heard his Seraphim lp of Goyescas.
Although I am no judge of pianists, the impression I got was that was that he was a bit self-conscious and studied, i.e., he didn't go on to the next note until he was absolutely satisfied with the sound of the note he was presently playing.
Subsequently I heard De Laroccha's recording of that piece and realized that if Ciccolini had managed to captured the letter of Granado's music, then De Laroccha had captured the spirit and flow of the music.
Idiotic comparison.
Ciccolini was Italian, not Spanish.
No non-Spanish pianist has ever
been able to capture the spirit
of Spanish piano music. NONE!
DeLarrocha herself said that as a
little girl her great inspiration in
Spanish piano music was Rubinstein!
DeLarrocha is the Hollywood notion of
a Spanish pianist, just as Horowitz is
the Hollywood notion of a Russian one,
and Rubinstein is the Hollywood notion
of a Chopinzee.

DeLarrocha's Albeniz is urbane, smooth,
sunny and light. She does not capture
the darker corners of the music. BTW I
heard her live several times so I know
first hand what I am talking about.

Listen to Querol, Orozco and Sanchez to
understand how Spanish music is played.

dk
v***@protonmail.com
2020-08-23 02:44:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
DeLarrocha's Albeniz is urbane, smooth,
sunny and light. She does not capture
the darker corners of the music. BTW I
heard her live several times so I know
first hand what I am talking about.
Listen to Querol, Orozco and Sanchez to
understand how Spanish music is played.
dk
De Larrocha has good rhythm (too rare!), and that counts a lot for me. Her Granados Escenas Romanticas (sp?) on Decca is memorable. Maybe there's more than one way to play Spanish music..

C.
AB
2020-08-12 19:11:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...
And yours?...
nice to see Ciccolni get recognition, perhaps overshadowed by ABM.
Heard Fournier, made a tremendous impression
Monteux was admired by his peers.

Should have mentioned Kreisler!

AB


AB
Ricardo Jimenez
2020-08-12 19:21:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...
And yours?...
Does this mean follows the composer's directions faithfully, even
ridiculous metronome markings? Or is it just an excuse to bloviate
about ones' favorites rather than objectively commenting on
performanaces?
e***@gmail.com
2020-08-12 22:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Berglund
De Larrocha, Firkusny
Violin???
Cello: Rose??
dk
2020-08-13 00:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...
What a bizarre and idiotic notion that
musicians must serve something or other.

We never hear that painters must serve
something, or sculptors or architects,
or poets or writers or playwrights.

This abominable notion is the result of
2+ centuries of brainwashing by music
analysts, professors and theoreticians
who created the unverifiable fiction
there is some abstract and objective
structure to musical works that trumps
all other possible interpretations.

Even this is were hypothetically true,
how could this be verified in any way?
Are you going to set up revolutionary
tribunals to gauge service to the music
just like your Jacobin ancestors?

Strongly dismissing your choices and
the very concept behind them.

dk
Frank Berger
2020-08-13 01:01:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...
What a bizarre and idiotic notion that
musicians must serve something or other.
We never hear that painters must serve
something, or sculptors or architects,
or poets or writers or playwrights.
This abominable notion is the result of
2+ centuries of brainwashing by music
analysts, professors and theoreticians
who created the unverifiable fiction
there is some abstract and objective
structure to musical works that trumps
all other possible interpretations.
Even this is were hypothetically true,
how could this be verified in any way?
Are you going to set up revolutionary
tribunals to gauge service to the music
just like your Jacobin ancestors?
Strongly dismissing your choices and
the very concept behind them.
dk
Still, you must admit there is a difference between
painters, sculptors, architects, poets and writers and
composers (who create out of thin air) and musicians who
play music that someone else wrote. "Serving the music"
could be taken to mean reproducing the music as it was
written or as it was intended by the composer. Seems like
there is a conceptual difference. How much a musician owes
to the composer is something I have not thought about a
great deal (not that thinking a lot about it would
necessarily produce anything sensible).
Raymond Hall
2020-08-13 01:18:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...
What a bizarre and idiotic notion that
musicians must serve something or other.
We never hear that painters must serve
something, or sculptors or architects,
or poets or writers or playwrights.
This abominable notion is the result of
2+ centuries of brainwashing by music
analysts, professors and theoreticians
who created the unverifiable fiction
there is some abstract and objective
structure to musical works that trumps
all other possible interpretations.
Even this is were hypothetically true,
how could this be verified in any way?
Are you going to set up revolutionary
tribunals to gauge service to the music
just like your Jacobin ancestors?
Strongly dismissing your choices and
the very concept behind them.
dk
It would be better to say that classical musicians serve or tries to honour the thoughts of the composer, and their audience. They are uniquely an intermediary, whereas much other art is derived wholly originally.
Most jazz musicians are exempt of course.

Ray Hall, Taree
g***@gmail.com
2020-08-13 06:52:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...
What a bizarre and idiotic notion that
musicians must serve something or other.
We never hear that painters must serve
something, or sculptors or architects,
or poets or writers or playwrights.
This abominable notion is the result of
2+ centuries of brainwashing by music
analysts, professors and theoreticians
who created the unverifiable fiction
there is some abstract and objective
structure to musical works that trumps
all other possible interpretations.
Even this is were hypothetically true,
how could this be verified in any way?
Are you going to set up revolutionary
tribunals to gauge service to the music
just like your Jacobin ancestors?
Strongly dismissing your choices and
the very concept behind them.
dk
It would be better to say that classical musicians serve or tries to honour the thoughts of the composer...
Wasn't his 1st bio entitled, "It's All In the Music"?
D***@aol.com
2020-08-13 17:34:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...
What a bizarre and idiotic notion that
musicians must serve something or other.
We never hear that painters must serve
something, or sculptors or architects,
or poets or writers or playwrights.
This abominable notion is the result of
2+ centuries of brainwashing by music
analysts, professors and theoreticians
who created the unverifiable fiction
there is some abstract and objective
structure to musical works that trumps
all other possible interpretations.
Even this is were hypothetically true,
how could this be verified in any way?
Are you going to set up revolutionary
tribunals to gauge service to the music
just like your Jacobin ancestors?
Strongly dismissing your choices and
the very concept behind them.
dk
It would be better to say that classical musicians serve or tries to honour the thoughts of the composer...
Wasn't his 1st bio entitled, "It's All In the Music"?
"It's All in the Music" was written by Monteux's widow, Doris G. Monteux. It was published by Farrar, Straus and Giroux in 1965, the year after Monteux's death. She wrote that "It's all in the music" was one of Monteux's most basic and frequently-expressed comments to his students at their conducting school in Hancock, Maine. It was so central to his musical philosophy that she chose it for the title of the story of his life.

I hope I may be permitted to add that I heard and saw Pierre Monteux conduct the Chicago Symphony Orchestra on several occasions in the early 1960s. In 1962 at the Ravinia Festival, where he was a regular yearly guest conductor for over two decades, I heard him conduct a performance of Sibelius's Second Symphony with the CSO that remains one of the four or five greatest live performances I have ever heard of anything. The audience (myself included) jumped to their feet and cheered for minutes on end. Afterward we encountered one of the CSO's violinists. He knew my companion. I've never forgotten his words: "Wasn't that *something*? The greatest since Koussevitzky!" Then he added something I still regard as a key to Monteux: "you know, when 'Papa'" [the musicians' nickname for Monteux] "is up there, we just relax and play. We know that with Papa, *nothing* can go wrong." (Can a conductor receive a greater tribute from the musicians who play for him?)

Incidentally, on one occasion behind the pavilion at Ravinia, Monteux walked right past me on the way to a waiting car. I mention it only because it was amazing how short he was: he can't have been more than five-feet-two or -three. (And very large around the middle.)

Don Tait
g***@gmail.com
2020-08-13 02:05:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
Violin : *OISTRAKH*...
Cello: FOURNIER...
And yours?...
Are you talking about this?:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.music.classical.recordings/scritto%7Csort:date/rec.music.classical.recordings/pBc-YsZ5izI/5iILBrmrCQAJ

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.music.classical.recordings/%22original$20intent%22%7Csort:relevance/rec.music.classical.recordings/p6HctLEnMUE/MQ-4Pi74EacJ

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.music.classical.recordings/%22original$20intent%22%7Csort:relevance/rec.music.classical.recordings/kY4sRBPqUDY/qq_Yf2LJaoMJ
g***@gmail.com
2020-08-14 06:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
(Upcoming radio programs featuring Monteux):

https://www.wfmt.com/programs/collectors-corner-with-henry-fogel
dk
2020-08-14 07:20:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
https://www.wfmt.com/programs/collectors-corner-with-henry-fogel
Monteux was OK. He certainly deserves to
be better known, and so does Jean Martinon.

At the same time, if one is forced to pick
just one conductor for the proverbial desert
island, only Celibidache fits the bill.

dk
MELMOTH13
2020-08-14 08:20:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Monteux was OK. He certainly deserves to
be better known, and so does Jean Martinon.
Martinon, yes...And Paray, Menges, Prêtre...
Post by dk
At the same time, if one is forced to pick
just one conductor for the proverbial desert
island, only Celibidache fits the bill.
After MONTEUX, of course...
dk
2020-08-15 20:22:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH13
Post by dk
Monteux was OK. He certainly deserves to
be better known, and so does Jean Martinon.
Martinon, yes...And Paray, Menges, Prêtre...
Post by dk
At the same time, if one is forced to pick
just one conductor for the proverbial desert
island, only Celibidache fits the bill.
After MONTEUX, of course...
Benzi? ;-)

dk
MELMOTH13
2020-08-16 07:35:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Benzi? ;-)
dk
My first LP 25 cm, in 1955: "Les Preludes" by Liszt (Philips), by
Roberto Benzi, (with the Tannhauser Ouverture) !...
dk
2020-08-16 08:09:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH13
Post by dk
Benzi? ;-)
My first LP 25 cm, in 1955: "Les Preludes" by Liszt (Philips), by
Roberto Benzi, (with the Tannhauser Ouverture) !...
Congrats! I had that one too! ;-)
Now we know how old you are! ;-))

dk
f***@gmail.com
2020-08-17 11:57:58 UTC
Permalink
That desert island is going to be a bit crowded with a conductor and, I presume, and orchestra to conduct.
dk
2020-08-17 21:53:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@gmail.com
That desert island is going to be a bit
crowded with a conductor and, I presume,
and orchestra to conduct.
This is what synthesizers are for! ;-)

dk
g***@gmail.com
2020-08-18 14:38:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH13
Very few Musicians SERVE Music for Itself, rather than SERVING IT
FOR...themselves....
Conductor: Pierre *MONTEUX*...
Piano : *CICCOLINI*...
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.music.classical.recordings/ciccolini%7Csort:relevance
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