Discussion:
Bruckner tempi and Celibidache
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RX-01
2004-03-04 12:38:46 UTC
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I've listened to Celibidache's Bruckner very recently and I'm amazed by
his choice of tempi. I am referring to the EMI set of Symphonies 3-9, Te
Deum and Mass no.3 in F minor.

I haven't seen the Bruckner symphony scores but surely there must be
clear tempo indications. I know what conductors often ignore them
(Furtwaengler comes to mind) but Celibidache's tempi are really extreme!

My questions are:

1. How accurate are his performances if he ignores the composer's tempo
indications?

2. Is there any justification from Celibidache's side, on why he chooses
this rempi?


PS. I've noticed that there are quite a few past threads on the right
pronunciation of his name. Glad to see I wasn't the only one pronouncing
it wrongly.
Thanks


RX-01
REG
2004-03-04 12:34:42 UTC
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Please retitle thread...Bruckner tempi vrs. Celibidache.
Post by RX-01
I've listened to Celibidache's Bruckner very recently and I'm amazed by
his choice of tempi. I am referring to the EMI set of Symphonies 3-9, Te
Deum and Mass no.3 in F minor.
I haven't seen the Bruckner symphony scores but surely there must be
clear tempo indications. I know what conductors often ignore them
(Furtwaengler comes to mind) but Celibidache's tempi are really extreme!
1. How accurate are his performances if he ignores the composer's tempo
indications?
2. Is there any justification from Celibidache's side, on why he chooses
this rempi?
PS. I've noticed that there are quite a few past threads on the right
pronunciation of his name. Glad to see I wasn't the only one pronouncing
it wrongly.
Thanks
RX-01
RX-01
2004-03-04 12:55:13 UTC
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Post by REG
Please retitle thread...Bruckner tempi vrs. Celibidache.
I don't think I should -- it won't make any difference on the number of
responses I'll get. The current title is on-topic anyway.

RX-01
Eric Grunin
2004-03-05 08:50:02 UTC
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Post by RX-01
Post by REG
Please retitle thread...Bruckner tempi vrs. Celibidache.
I don't think I should -- it won't make any difference on the number of
responses I'll get. The current title is on-topic anyway.
He was making a joke...
maddawg
2004-03-06 16:47:33 UTC
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Post by Eric Grunin
Post by RX-01
Post by REG
Please retitle thread...Bruckner tempi vrs. Celibidache.
I don't think I should -- it won't make any difference on the number of
responses I'll get. The current title is on-topic anyway.
He was making a joke...
...although the joke should be "Celibidache vs. Bruckner tempi". The
tempi aren't fighting Celi; if anything, they're losing the battle.
--
Aarf!

Aaron Z Snyder, a.k.a. maddawg
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-03-06 17:44:42 UTC
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Post by maddawg
Post by Eric Grunin
Post by RX-01
Post by REG
Please retitle thread...Bruckner tempi vrs. Celibidache.
I don't think I should -- it won't make any difference on the number of
responses I'll get. The current title is on-topic anyway.
He was making a joke...
...although the joke should be "Celibidache vs. Bruckner tempi". The
tempi aren't fighting Celi; if anything, they're losing the battle.
Having seen him conduct a 77-minute 4th in 1989, I would concur.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Lionel Tacchini
2004-03-06 18:01:46 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by maddawg
Post by Eric Grunin
Post by RX-01
Post by REG
Please retitle thread...Bruckner tempi vrs. Celibidache.
I don't think I should -- it won't make any difference on the number of
responses I'll get. The current title is on-topic anyway.
He was making a joke...
...although the joke should be "Celibidache vs. Bruckner tempi". The
tempi aren't fighting Celi; if anything, they're losing the battle.
Having seen him conduct a 77-minute 4th in 1989, I would concur.
He took it up to 86 mn a few years later.
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-03-06 19:33:45 UTC
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Permalink
Lionel Tacchini <***@arcor.de> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:emo2c.10894$k4.230243
Post by Lionel Tacchini
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by maddawg
Post by Eric Grunin
Post by RX-01
Post by REG
Please retitle thread...Bruckner tempi vrs. Celibidache.
I don't think I should -- it won't make any difference on the number
of responses I'll get. The current title is on-topic anyway.
He was making a joke...
...although the joke should be "Celibidache vs. Bruckner tempi". The
tempi aren't fighting Celi; if anything, they're losing the battle.
Having seen him conduct a 77-minute 4th in 1989, I would concur.
He took it up to 86 mn a few years later.
Ai ai ai!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
maddawg
2004-03-07 19:13:22 UTC
Reply
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:emo2c.10894$k4.230243
Post by Lionel Tacchini
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by maddawg
Post by Eric Grunin
Post by RX-01
Post by REG
Please retitle thread...Bruckner tempi vrs. Celibidache.
I don't think I should -- it won't make any difference on the number
of responses I'll get. The current title is on-topic anyway.
He was making a joke...
...although the joke should be "Celibidache vs. Bruckner tempi". The
tempi aren't fighting Celi; if anything, they're losing the battle.
Having seen him conduct a 77-minute 4th in 1989, I would concur.
He took it up to 86 mn a few years later.
Ai ai ai!
...and herein lies a real problem: Celibidache makes Bruckner sound just as
pompous and boring as some people believe all of his music is. Yes, I know
the argument about the score never containing all that there is to know
about a work; otherwise, there would be no such thing as "interpretation".
However, most scores have at least general guidelines about how the music
should be played -- otherwise, why bother with all those funny little
Italian or German messages placed all of the score, not to mention all the
p's and f's, supplanted occasionally by the letter m? Couple the markings
with a knowledge of the composer's biographical details and one can pretty
much come up with a relatively narrow range of what the composer might have
meant.

Now I'm not saying that *all* deviant interpretations are bad. I (as well
as many others) happen to be fascinated by Klemperer's Mahler 7th, although
I could never recommend it to anyone as the only recording to have.
Similarly, I find some of Celibidache's slow interpretations quite
interesting, especially because of some of the detail which one can hear.
However, it strikes me that more often than not, Celibidache is hijacking
the music and making it his and his alone. Sorry, Sergiu, but the music is
by Bruckner, and you're supposed to be at *his* service!
--
Aarf!

Aaron Z Snyder, a.k.a. maddawg
David Wake
2004-03-07 21:18:50 UTC
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[snip]
However, it strikes me that more often than not, Celibidache is hijacking
the music and making it his and his alone.
Does this mean anything more than you don't like it?
Sorry, Sergiu, but the music is by Bruckner, and you're supposed to
be at *his* service!
Says who?

David
David M. Cook
2004-03-07 21:56:14 UTC
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Post by maddawg
...and herein lies a real problem: Celibidache makes Bruckner sound just as
pompous and boring as some people believe all of his music is. Yes, I know
I only have 2 Celi Bruckner recordings, the 6 on EMI and a 3 from Stuttgart
on the Exclusive (pirate?) label. Both couldn't be further from pompous and
boring, they are the most Romantic, passionate, and colorful Bruckner
performances I've ever heard.

Dave Cook
g***@gmail.com
2017-09-01 00:03:01 UTC
Reply
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Post by maddawg
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:emo2c.10894$k4.230243
Post by Lionel Tacchini
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by maddawg
Post by Eric Grunin
Post by RX-01
Post by REG
Please retitle thread...Bruckner tempi vrs. Celibidache.
I don't think I should -- it won't make any difference on the number
of responses I'll get. The current title is on-topic anyway.
He was making a joke...
...although the joke should be "Celibidache vs. Bruckner tempi". The
tempi aren't fighting Celi; if anything, they're losing the battle.
Having seen him conduct a 77-minute 4th in 1989, I would concur.
He took it up to 86 mn a few years later.
Ai ai ai!
...and herein lies a real problem: Celibidache makes Bruckner sound just as
pompous and boring as some people believe all of his music is. Yes, I know
the argument about the score never containing all that there is to know
about a work; otherwise, there would be no such thing as "interpretation".
However, most scores have at least general guidelines about how the music
should be played -- otherwise, why bother with all those funny little
Italian or German messages placed all of the score, not to mention all the
p's and f's, supplanted occasionally by the letter m? Couple the markings
with a knowledge of the composer's biographical details and one can pretty
much come up with a relatively narrow range of what the composer might have
meant.
Now I'm not saying that *all* deviant interpretations are bad. I (as well
as many others) happen to be fascinated by Klemperer's Mahler 7th, although
I could never recommend it to anyone as the only recording to have.
Similarly, I find some of Celibidache's slow interpretations quite
interesting, especially because of some of the detail which one can hear...
According to the following recent article:

- Like Sergiu Celibidache in his cosmic readings of the Bruckner symphonies, Richter was creating a world in which physical law had been seemingly altered—time and space were not as they had appeared before.

https://theamericanscholar.org/schubert-everlasting/#
David Wake
2004-03-04 14:03:45 UTC
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Post by RX-01
I've listened to Celibidache's Bruckner very recently and I'm amazed by
his choice of tempi. I am referring to the EMI set of Symphonies 3-9, Te
Deum and Mass no.3 in F minor.
I haven't seen the Bruckner symphony scores but surely there must be
clear tempo indications. I know what conductors often ignore them
(Furtwaengler comes to mind) but Celibidache's tempi are really extreme!
If you haven't seen the scores and don't even know whether there are
clear tempo indications, how can you know that Furtwangler ignores them?
Post by RX-01
1. How accurate are his performances if he ignores the composer's tempo
indications?
2. Is there any justification from Celibidache's side, on why he chooses
this rempi?
The only justfication necessary should come from your ears. Mine tell
me that these are some of the most amazing recordings of anything that
I've ever heard.

David
RX-01
2004-03-04 16:57:48 UTC
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Post by David Wake
The only justfication necessary should come from your ears. Mine tell
me that these are some of the most amazing recordings of anything that
I've ever heard.
David
I don't doubt that. I've only heard to a few symphonies so far and I'm
falling in love with Bruckner's music all over again.

RX-01
Lionel Tacchini
2004-03-04 17:36:38 UTC
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Permalink
Post by RX-01
I've listened to Celibidache's Bruckner very recently and I'm amazed
by his choice of tempi. I am referring to the EMI set of Symphonies
3-9, Te Deum and Mass no.3 in F minor.
I haven't seen the Bruckner symphony scores but surely there must be
clear tempo indications. I know what conductors often ignore them
(Furtwaengler comes to mind) but Celibidache's tempi are really extreme!
There are not so many accurate (i.e. metronomic) tempo indications in
Bruckner's scores but
in most cases where there are, they are way faster than what Celibidache
does and consistently faster
than what evererybody else does today as well.
Following those of the 4th and 7th symphonies, one ends up with total
timings around 62 and 57 mn
respectively, which gives an idea of what Bruckner had in mind, who
specified those tempi after
having heard the works in performances. This doesn't forbid any
deviations or adaptations,
just tells us more precisely what he thought would be proper to have in
print.
Another indication we find there from him is that tempo is to be subject
to variations within
one movement.
Post by RX-01
1. How accurate are his performances if he ignores the composer's
tempo indications?
They are not. Whether that matters is a different point.
Post by RX-01
2. Is there any justification from Celibidache's side, on why he
chooses this rempi?
The justification in this case is based only on the musical results, not
on the composer's
own conception.

Lionel Tacchini
Alan Watkins
2004-03-04 22:45:59 UTC
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Post by RX-01
I've listened to Celibidache's Bruckner very recently and I'm amazed by
his choice of tempi. I am referring to the EMI set of Symphonies 3-9, Te
Deum and Mass no.3 in F minor.
I haven't seen the Bruckner symphony scores but surely there must be
clear tempo indications. I know what conductors often ignore them
(Furtwaengler comes to mind) but Celibidache's tempi are really extreme!
1. How accurate are his performances if he ignores the composer's tempo
indications?
2. Is there any justification from Celibidache's side, on why he chooses
this rempi?
PS. I've noticed that there are quite a few past threads on the right
pronunciation of his name. Glad to see I wasn't the only one pronouncing
it wrongly.
Thanks
RX-01
There are not clear tempo indications in the parts of the Haas or
Nowak editions that I know or at least no metronome markings.

I have not heard the recordings you mention.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Curtis Croulet
2004-03-05 04:57:55 UTC
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There *are* metronome marks in all editions of the finale of the Eighth.
They are universally ignored. The Eulenburg pocket score of the 1888 Fourth
also has metronome marks, but I don't know their provenance.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Curtis Croulet
2004-03-05 05:03:40 UTC
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Clarification: the metronome marks mentioned are in the full scores. I know
nothing about the parts.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Peter Schenkman
2004-03-04 22:57:52 UTC
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Permalink
Post by RX-01
I've listened to Celibidache's Bruckner very recently and I'm amazed by
his choice of tempi. I am referring to the EMI set of Symphonies 3-9, Te
Deum and Mass no.3 in F minor.
I haven't seen the Bruckner symphony scores but surely there must be
clear tempo indications. I know what conductors often ignore them
(Furtwaengler comes to mind) but Celibidache's tempi are really extreme!
1. How accurate are his performances if he ignores the composer's tempo
indications?
2. Is there any justification from Celibidache's side, on why he chooses
this rempi?
PS. I've noticed that there are quite a few past threads on the right
pronunciation of his name. Glad to see I wasn't the only one pronouncing
it wrongly.
Thanks
RX-01
My question would be: How do you know that Celibidache ignores the
composers tempo indications if by your own admission you don't know
what they are?

What I do know is if you take the Sixth Symphony for instance and look
at the tempo indications movement by movement you'll find the
following:

1. Majestoso
2. Sehr feierlich
3. Nicht schnell
4. Bewegt,doch nicht zu schnell

There is a great deal of latitude in the above and there are no
metronome marking in any of the Bruckner Symphonies to refer to.

Different halls have different acoustic properties which with a
composer like Bruckner can make a huge difference in the choice of
tempo. Try listening to Celibadache's earlier Bruckner performances on
DG and I think you'll find that the tempi are not the same as those on
the EMI set.

Peter Schenkman
Marc Perman
2004-03-05 03:03:57 UTC
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Post by Peter Schenkman
Different halls have different acoustic properties which with a
composer like Bruckner can make a huge difference in the choice of
tempo. Try listening to Celibadache's earlier Bruckner performances on
DG and I think you'll find that the tempi are not the same as those on
the EMI set.
True, but I would think the much slower tempi of the later recordings have
more to do with Celibidache's age, his ripened view of Bruckner, and other
non-acoustic reasons. I suspect that if the Celi of 1995 returned to
Stuttgart his Bruckner 8 would still push 100 minutes.

Marc Perman
Eric Grunin
2004-03-05 09:06:44 UTC
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Post by Marc Perman
True, but I would think the much slower tempi of the later recordings have
more to do with Celibidache's age
Celibidache did indeed slow down, at least in the case of the
'Eroica'. You can find the details here:

http://www.grunin.com/eroica/?page=age.asp

(Click on 'Celibidache' in the table on the right.)

From 1975 to 1987 (EMI) to 1996 he slows down in every movement.

If anyone has a Celi 'Eroica' besides those three I would dearly
appreciate hearing from them.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Raymond Hall
2004-03-05 09:36:49 UTC
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Permalink
"Eric Grunin" <***@b.c> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
| On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 22:03:57 -0500, "Marc Perman" <***@comcast.net>
| wrote:
|
| >True, but I would think the much slower tempi of the later recordings
have
| >more to do with Celibidache's age
|
| Celibidache did indeed slow down, at least in the case of the
| 'Eroica'. You can find the details here:

You mean he went backwards in time? I haven't read anything written up in
the latest Physics journals.
<g>

Regards,

# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)

Ray, Taree, NSW
REG
2004-03-05 10:12:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
If you play the records backwards, they are faster.
Post by Raymond Hall
|
| >True, but I would think the much slower tempi of the later recordings
have
| >more to do with Celibidache's age
|
| Celibidache did indeed slow down, at least in the case of the
You mean he went backwards in time? I haven't read anything written up in
the latest Physics journals.
<g>
Regards,
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)
Ray, Taree, NSW
Lionel Tacchini
2004-03-05 19:08:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Raymond Hall
|
| >True, but I would think the much slower tempi of the later recordings
have
| >more to do with Celibidache's age
|
| Celibidache did indeed slow down, at least in the case of the
You mean he went backwards in time? I haven't read anything written up in
the latest Physics journals.
It wasn't recorded ;-)
Lionel Tacchini
2004-03-05 19:06:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Schenkman
Different halls have different acoustic properties which with a
composer like Bruckner can make a huge difference in the choice of
tempo.
No difference of hall acoustics can make for the differences in tempo
between Celibidache
and other conductors. He also was consistently slow in every hall and
got consistently slower
with time.

Lionel Tacchini
Paul Holbach
2004-03-05 16:14:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
187302.news.uni-berlin.de>...
I've listened to Celibidache's Bruckner very recently and I'm amazed by
his choice of tempi. I am referring to the EMI set of Symphonies 3-9, Te
Deum and Mass no.3 in F minor.
I haven't seen the Bruckner symphony scores but surely there must be
clear tempo indications. I know what conductors often ignore them
(Furtwaengler comes to mind) but Celibidache's tempi are really extreme!
So are his performances--e x t r e m e l y good!

If you want to compare the tempi, visit the BRUCKNER SYMPHONY VERSIONS DISCOPGRAPHY:

http://home.comcast.net/~jberky/BSVD.htm


PH
Marc Perman
2004-03-06 02:57:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Holbach
187302.news.uni-berlin.de>...
I've listened to Celibidache's Bruckner very recently and I'm amazed by
his choice of tempi. I am referring to the EMI set of Symphonies 3-9, Te
Deum and Mass no.3 in F minor.
I haven't seen the Bruckner symphony scores but surely there must be
clear tempo indications. I know what conductors often ignore them
(Furtwaengler comes to mind) but Celibidache's tempi are really extreme!
So are his performances--e x t r e m e l y good!
I'm persuaded by the EMI 3rd, 4th, and 6th, less so by the others.

Marc Perman
g***@gmail.com
2018-03-03 07:52:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RX-01
I've listened to Celibidache's Bruckner very recently and I'm amazed by
his choice of tempi. I am referring to the EMI set of Symphonies 3-9, Te
Deum and Mass no.3 in F minor.
I haven't seen the Bruckner symphony scores but surely there must be
clear tempo indications. I know what conductors often ignore them
(Furtwaengler comes to mind) but Celibidache's tempi are really extreme!
1. How accurate are his performances if he ignores the composer's tempo
indications?
2. Is there any justification from Celibidache's side, on why he chooses
this rempi?
PS. I've noticed that there are quite a few past threads on the right
pronunciation of his name. Glad to see I wasn't the only one pronouncing
it wrongly.
Thanks
RX-01
Recent Youtube upload:

Bruckner - Mass in F Minor - Celibidache, MPO (1993) Rehearsals and Performance (English Subtitles)
gggg gggg
2021-11-18 07:19:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RX-01
I've listened to Celibidache's Bruckner very recently and I'm amazed by
his choice of tempi. I am referring to the EMI set of Symphonies 3-9, Te
Deum and Mass no.3 in F minor.
I haven't seen the Bruckner symphony scores but surely there must be
clear tempo indications. I know what conductors often ignore them
(Furtwaengler comes to mind) but Celibidache's tempi are really extreme!
1. How accurate are his performances if he ignores the composer's tempo
indications?
2. Is there any justification from Celibidache's side, on why he chooses
this rempi?
PS. I've noticed that there are quite a few past threads on the right
pronunciation of his name. Glad to see I wasn't the only one pronouncing
it wrongly.
Thanks
RX-01
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical/c/5WTf-kj6kP8

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