Classical Music in Film

[Willem Orange]

Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have experienced .

1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person) its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty. Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.

2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,

3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car (and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.

Any others????

[Charles Milton Ling]

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios).

Off the top of my head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others
that you have experienced .

Post by Willem Orange
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother the Grand Duchess is finally

engineered (in order to get the Grand Duchess's recognition of
Anastasia as actually being the real person)

its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty. Its
during the dramatic opening chords of that work

that the eyes of the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand
Duchess meet.

Post by Willem Orange
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film and he also uses classical music at

times through the film. "Plaisir d'amore" is heard over and over (and
played by Morris Townsend when he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's

Gavotte is played when he first meets her at a dance and teaches her
the right steps,

Post by Willem Orange
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being played on the radio

when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car (and Margo talks about
the things she had to drop on the way

to the top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's
recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.

Post by Willem Orange
Any others????

I hesitate to name the usual suspects (2001 etc.).

[Oscar]

Jakob Gimpel appeared in the 1944 classic noir thriller, Gaslight, starring Ingrid Bergman. I forget the piece he played. He can be seen in a still from the movie, below.

http://www.aveleyman.com/FilmCredit.aspx?FilmID=7040

[Charles Milton Ling]

Post by Oscar
Jakob Gimpel appeared in the 1944 classic noir thriller, Gaslight, starring Ingrid Bergman.

I forget the piece he played. He can be seen in a still from the movie,
below.

Post by Oscar
http://www.aveleyman.com/FilmCredit.aspx?FilmID=7040

Yes! (I can't remember either.)

[Willem Orange]

Post by Oscar

Post by Oscar
Jakob Gimpel appeared in the 1944 classic noir thriller, Gaslight, starring Ingrid Bergman.

I forget the piece he played. He can be seen in a still from the movie,
below.

Post by Oscar
http://www.aveleyman.com/FilmCredit.aspx?FilmID=7040

Yes! (I can't remember either.)
--
Charles Milton Ling
Vienna, Austria
Gpg4win encryption available

These are the pieces played in the film

Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op. 23
(1835-36) (uncredited)
Music by Frédéric Chopin


Die Fledermaus: Waltz
(1874) (uncredited)
Music by Johann Strauß


Mattinata
(1904) (uncredited)
Written by Ruggero Leoncavallo


Piano Sonata No. 8 in C minor, Op. 13 (Pathetique)
(1798) (uncredited)
Written by Ludwig van Beethoven

[Oscar]

Re Gaslight

Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op. 23
Strauß: Die Fledermaus: Waltz
Leoncavallo: Mattinata
Beethoven: Piano Sonata No. 8 in C minor, Op.13 'Pathetique'

Thanks. It's one of my favorite movies of/for/through all-time.

Btw, Jakob Gimpel's son, Peter, was the man behind a disruption at a Wagner talk by James Conlon during the 2010 Ring Festival surrounding LA Opera's production of The Ring.

From Los Angeles Times http://tinyurl.com/k7abq2g

<< ...[LA Opera music director James] Conlon likes to talk. And talk and talk. (Anyone who has attended his pre-performance lectures at L.A. Opera already knows this.)

At the Museum of Tolerance, he's giving an evening lecture on Richard Wagner that is long and erudite. The central theme is Wagner's anti-Semitism and how it should be separated intellectually from his music. Conlon makes tony references to Theodor Adorno, Denis de Rougemont and Isaiah Berlin. His notes have been put together with the help of his assistants, but he appears to be talking extemporaneously in a kind of off-the-cuff, intellectual filibuster.

Near the end of his talk, a voice cries out from the back of the auditorium: "How can you compare Chopin to Wagner? I can hardly contain myself with these generalizations!"

The heckler berates Conlon for several minutes. The conductor initially appears flustered but he quickly regains his composure.

The voice of dissent belongs to Peter Gimpel, an L.A.-based Jewish American writer who has actively protested the Ring Festival L.A. -- a countywide celebration of the arts tied to the "Ring" cycle -- for its focus on Wagner.

Conlon never raises his voice and does his best to speak over the continued interruptions. Eventually, security guards are called in.

After the heckler is escorted out, Conlon finishes and mingles with the audience. "Are you kidding? That was nothing," he says smiling, when asked how he handled the disruption. "Water off a duck's back." >>

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Willem Orange
Any others?

In "People Will Talk", Mankiewicz scores the film with snippets of Brahms (and
maybe some Wagner). The justification seems to be that Dr Praetorius (Cary
Grant) is conducting a rehearsal of the "Academic Festival Overture". One of
the orchestra's members is a physicist, played by Walter Slezak (son of Leo
Slezak).

In "Born Yesterday", William Holden takes Judy Holliday to a concert that
includes Beethoven's 2nd Symphony. She later listens to a record of it.

"Hangover Square" includes the brief-but-effective "Concerto Macabre" (by
Bernard Herrmann), which brings the film to a fiery close. I suppose it could
be considered "classical" -- it might be mistaken for real Romantic music,
rather than "chinoiserie" written down to the taste of a modern audience.

Stretching the definition to its breaking point, Judy's final transformation
into Madeleine in "Vertigo" is accompanied by Bernard Herrmann's pastiche of
Wagner.

[Dana John Hill]

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film
drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my
head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have
experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother
the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand
Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person)
its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty.
Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of
the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film
and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir
d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when
he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first
meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being
played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car
(and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the
top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's
recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

I'll go way out and suggest the film "Impressions de France" at Epcot.
Saint-Saens, Ravel, Debussy, Boieldieu, and the Offenbach during the
bicycle sequence. It's my favorite thing at Disney World.

Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida

[Willem Orange]

Post by Dana John Hill

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film
drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my
head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have
experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother
the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand
Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person)
its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty.
Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of
the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film
and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir
d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when
he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first
meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being
played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car
(and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the
top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's
recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

I'll go way out and suggest the film "Impressions de France" at Epcot.
Saint-Saens, Ravel, Debussy, Boieldieu, and the Offenbach during the
bicycle sequence. It's my favorite thing at Disney World.
Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida

Oh yes its wonderful - I was bowled over by the music and asked one of the Disney's if they had a list and they did have a complete list of all the music played/

[Dana John Hill]

Post by Willem Orange
Oh yes its wonderful - I was bowled over by the music and asked one
of the Disney's if they had a list and they did have a complete list
of all the music played/

I just checked, and so does Wikipedia. The soundtrack is as well-done as
a Disney attraction could be expected to be, and every time I go, I find
myself happily surprised that they haven't seen fit to update it with
something more trendy.

Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida

[D***@aol.com]

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person) its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty. Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car (and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

Unfaithfully Yours -- Rex Harrison, Linda Darnell, directed by Preston Sturges (1948). Harrison plays an orchestra conductor who fantasizes various ways to punish his unfaithful wife. Despite that, it's a comedy, and a good one. As I recall it, Harrison goes into his revenge fantasies while conducting Tchaikovsky's Francesca da Rimini -- an interesting touch. Harrison portrays a famous and urbane conductor apparently modeled upon Sir Thomas Beecham (since among the compliments delivered to him are "nobody handles Handel as well as you handle Handel" and "your Delius is delirious"). I remember a particularly side-splitting episode in which Harrison was sitting on the floor trying to deal with a 1948 tape recorder and getting only moans and groans from it.

Also, I remember seeing a 1940s movie on television decades ago in which Cary Grant portrayed a conductor who at one point was "conducting" Brahms's Academic Festival Overture. (I wrote "conducting" because although he had many genuine gifts, Grant didn't look much like a conductor.) Apologies for not having looked it up among his films. Does anyone know?

The Mummy (the original, early 1930s version with Boris Karloff) -- used Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake as the title music. Or so I recall: again, it's been many years since I've seen it.

Thanks for an interesting topic.

Don Tait

[D***@aol.com]

Post by D***@aol.com

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person) its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty. Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car (and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

Unfaithfully Yours -- Rex Harrison, Linda Darnell, directed by Preston Sturges (1948). Harrison plays an orchestra conductor who fantasizes various ways to punish his unfaithful wife. Despite that, it's a comedy, and a good one. As I recall it, Harrison goes into his revenge fantasies while conducting Tchaikovsky's Francesca da Rimini -- an interesting touch. Harrison portrays a famous and urbane conductor apparently modeled upon Sir Thomas Beecham (since among the compliments delivered to him are "nobody handles Handel as well as you handle Handel" and "your Delius is delirious"). I remember a particularly side-splitting episode in which Harrison was sitting on the floor trying to deal with a 1948 tape recorder and getting only moans and groans from it.
Also, I remember seeing a 1940s movie on television decades ago in which Cary Grant portrayed a conductor who at one point was "conducting" Brahms's Academic Festival Overture. (I wrote "conducting" because although he had many genuine gifts, Grant didn't look much like a conductor.) Apologies for not having looked it up among his films. Does anyone know?
The Mummy (the original, early 1930s version with Boris Karloff) -- used Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake as the title music. Or so I recall: again, it's been many years since I've seen it.
Thanks for an interesting topic.
Don Tait

I forgot something about the film with Cary Grant as a conductor: at one point a character asks him "who do you think you are -- Koussevitzky?"

Don Tait

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by D***@aol.com
I remember a particularly side-splitting episode in which
Harrison was sitting on the floor trying to deal with a 1948
tape recorder and getting only moans and groans from it.

Actually, it was a disk-cutting machine. Sturges makes some nasty slaps at the
poor quality of its instruction manual. Nothing has changed!

Post by D***@aol.com
Also, I remember seeing a 1940s movie on television decades
ago in which Cary Grant portrayed a conductor who at one point
was "conducting" Brahms's Academic Festival Overture.

1951. "People Will Talk". I mentioned it in my post.

Post by D***@aol.com
The Mummy (the original, early 1930s version with Boris Karloff)
again, it's been many years since I've seen it.

I know that "Dracula" used it. I think.

[D***@aol.com]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by D***@aol.com
I remember a particularly side-splitting episode in which
Harrison was sitting on the floor trying to deal with a 1948
tape recorder and getting only moans and groans from it.

Actually, it was a disk-cutting machine. Sturges makes some nasty slaps at the
poor quality of its instruction manual. Nothing has changed!

Post by D***@aol.com
Also, I remember seeing a 1940s movie on television decades
ago in which Cary Grant portrayed a conductor who at one point
was "conducting" Brahms's Academic Festival Overture.

1951. "People Will Talk". I mentioned it in my post.

Post by D***@aol.com
The Mummy (the original, early 1930s version with Boris Karloff)
again, it's been many years since I've seen it.

I know that "Dracula" used it. I think.

Yes, you did mention "People Will Talk." I missed it. Sorry.

Also, there are the "Flash Gordon" films starring Buster Crabbe. Liszt's Les Preludes" was perhaps the most prominent because as I remember it was played when the Emperor Ming (Charles Middleton) appeared. But there were probably other classical works used in those films, including one or more Weber overture(s).

Again, I'm relying upon memory.

Don Tait

[Willem Orange]

Post by D***@aol.com

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by D***@aol.com
I remember a particularly side-splitting episode in which
Harrison was sitting on the floor trying to deal with a 1948
tape recorder and getting only moans and groans from it.

Actually, it was a disk-cutting machine. Sturges makes some nasty slaps at the
poor quality of its instruction manual. Nothing has changed!

Post by D***@aol.com
Also, I remember seeing a 1940s movie on television decades
ago in which Cary Grant portrayed a conductor who at one point
was "conducting" Brahms's Academic Festival Overture.

1951. "People Will Talk". I mentioned it in my post.

Post by D***@aol.com
The Mummy (the original, early 1930s version with Boris Karloff)
again, it's been many years since I've seen it.

I know that "Dracula" used it. I think.

Yes, you did mention "People Will Talk." I missed it. Sorry.
Also, there are the "Flash Gordon" films starring Buster Crabbe. Liszt's Les Preludes" was perhaps the most prominent because as I remember it was played when the Emperor Ming (Charles Middleton) appeared. But there were probably other classical works used in those films, including one or more Weber overture(s).
Again, I'm relying upon memory.
Don Tait

Yes Les preludes is used a lot in the Flash Gordon series as well as other music form Waxman's score for Bride of Frankenstein

[William Sommerwerck]

I completely forgot Bernard Herrmann's faux aria for "Citizen Kane". It was
written so the singer would have trouble with its compass, making her look
less-than-competent.

[g***@gmail.com]

Post by William Sommerwerck
I completely forgot Bernard Herrmann's faux aria for "Citizen Kane". It was
written so the singer would have trouble with its compass, making her look
less-than-competent.

If you want to hear the complete aria, Kiri Te Kanawa recorded it.

And on Youtube, there are some sopranos who sing it.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by g***@gmail.com

Post by William Sommerwerck
I completely forgot Bernard Herrmann's faux aria for "Citizen Kane".
It was written so the singer would have trouble with its compass,
making her look less-than-competent.

If you want to hear the complete aria, Kiri Te Kanawa recorded it.

It's on the RCA album of Herrmann's film music.

[RVG]

Post by William Sommerwerck
I completely forgot Bernard Herrmann's faux aria for "Citizen Kane".
It was written so the singer would have trouble with its compass,
making her look less-than-competent.

There's also Patrick Cassidy's faux opera "Vide Cor Meum" featured in
Ridley Scott's films "Hannibal" and "Kingdom of Heaven".

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by William Sommerwerck
But I remember the moment, ca 1970, when I first heard the
"Rhenish". I jumped off the sofa and started humming and dancing. (The Wand
performance, by the way.)

I remember the first time I heard "Rhenish" and instantly recognized it as the theme from the 1980 fantasy classic Willow. Seems James Horner followed the hallowed tradition of nicking a tune from a famous composer and presenting it as his own.

Other films that have similar pieces include:
- The Hudsucker Proxy contains a scene where a hula hoop is being manufactured with background music reminiscent of Khatchaturian's Sabre Dance
- The opening of Brahms' 2nd Piano Concerto contains snippets of melody reminiscent of both Indiana Jones and Star Wars
- The Darth Vader Theme from Star Wars shares strong links to Chopin's Funeral March from his 2nd sonata
- Home Alone contains some background music while the family's rushing to the airport which is very similar to the Trepak from Nutcracker

Undoubtedly many other examples exist, just waiting to be pointed out.

-P

[Christopher Webber]

Post by a***@gmail.com
Undoubtedly many other examples exist, just waiting to be pointed out.

How lazy these much-lauded and decorated film composers can be.

I was astounded to find that the "resurrection" theme in 'Superman'
turns out to bear a bull's-eye resemblance to Richard Strauss's 'Tod und
Verklärung' (the transfiguration theme). Mr Williams and/or his
orchestrator even "paid homage" to Strauss's instrumental layout.

Fine if you are in a hurry. But then to copyright it? And make money
from it?? And win prizes for it??? Integrity would seem to be a word
that went missing from the dictionary, at some point along the line.

[William Sommerwerck]

I was astounded to find that the "resurrection" theme in "Superman"
turns out to bear a bull's-eye resemblance to Richard Strauss's
"Tod und Verklärung" (the transfiguration theme). Mr Williams and/or
his orchestrator even "paid homage" to Strauss's instrumental layout.

The scene where Superman pulls Lois's car out of the ground?

[Christopher Webber]

Post by William Sommerwerck
The scene where Superman pulls Lois's car out of the ground?

Precisely, William. The clever hack excised the first note of Strauss's
theme, and then used the next five (you need seven for it to be
actionable) while mirroring the original, rhythm, harmonies and
orchestration.

Of course, one could be charitable and say it was a modest 'homenaje' to
"Richard the Second", but I am not feeling charitable tonight.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Christopher Webber

Post by William Sommerwerck
The scene where Superman pulls Lois's car out of the ground?

Precisely, William. The clever hack excised the first note of Strauss's
theme, and then used the next five (you need seven for it to be actionable)
while mirroring the original, rhythm, harmonies and orchestration.

I can be dense. You know how long it took me to realize the last three notes
of Williams' Superman theme are C-G-C? * It took a long time to realize that
Otis's Leitmotiv is a Prokofiev pastiche. (Now, that's bad.)

* I think so. I can sing on pitch, but...

[RVG]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Christopher Webber

Post by William Sommerwerck
The scene where Superman pulls Lois's car out of the ground?

Precisely, William. The clever hack excised the first note of
Strauss's theme, and then used the next five (you need seven for it
to be actionable) while mirroring the original, rhythm, harmonies
and orchestration.

I can be dense. You know how long it took me to realize the last
three notes of Williams' Superman theme are C-G-C? * It took a long
time to realize that Otis's Leitmotiv is a Prokofiev pastiche. (Now,
that's bad.)
* I think so. I can sing on pitch, but...

Speaking of Strauss, there's this scene in David Lynch's "Wild at heart"
where the music moves from heavy-metal rock to "Im Abendrot" from "Vier
Letzte Lieder":

[Bozo]

?> Speaking of Strauss, there's this scene in David Lynch's "Wild at heart"

" Wild at Heart " , perhaps the greatest movie ever.

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Bozo
" Wild at Heart " , perhaps the greatest movie ever.

Bozo, you are falling into the Cantrell School of Criticism. Is it even
Mr Lynch's finest hour? Honestly, now??

[Bozo]

Post by Christopher Webber
Honestly, now??

I did say " perhaps ". I would probably add the following to "Wild at Heart " for discussion :

Easy Rider , Lion in Winter, first Alien, Casablanca, For a Few Dollars More, Dances with Wolves.

[Bozo]

Lest we forget , some brief scenes :

Wild at Heart

Few Dollars More

Easy Rider

[graham]

Post by Bozo

Post by Christopher Webber
Honestly, now??

I did say " perhaps ". I would probably add the following to "Wild at
Easy Rider , Lion in Winter, first Alien, Casablanca, For a Few Dollars
More, Dances with Wolves.

--------
At least you didn't add that hoary old Citizen Kane!
Graham

[Bozo]

Post by Bozo
Few Dollars More, Dances with Wolves.

Sibelius 5th Symphony in Dances with Wolves

[RVG]

Post by Bozo
?> Speaking of Strauss, there's this scene in David Lynch's "Wild at heart"
" Wild at Heart " , perhaps the greatest movie ever.

My favourite Lynch is still "Blue Velvet".

[John Wiser]

Post by Christopher Webber

Post by a***@gmail.com
Undoubtedly many other examples exist, just waiting to be pointed out.

How lazy these much-lauded and decorated film composers can be.
I was astounded to find that the "resurrection" theme in 'Superman' turns out to bear a bull's-eye
resemblance to Richard Strauss's 'Tod und Verklärung' (the transfiguration theme). Mr Williams
and/or his orchestrator even "paid homage" to Strauss's instrumental layout.
Fine if you are in a hurry. But then to copyright it? And make money from it?? And win prizes for
it??? Integrity would seem to be a word that went missing from the dictionary, at some point along
the line.

Simpler than that. Crap music for a crappy trivial medium. Judged accordingly.

jdw

[Al Eisner]

Post by a***@gmail.com
- The opening of Brahms' 2nd Piano Concerto contains snippets of melody reminiscent of both Indiana Jones and Star Wars

Did Richard Rodgers acknowledge that the song "The Sweetest Counds" (in
his post-Hammerstein musical "No Strings") was pretty much directly
taken from that PC? (There is a film connection, since, I think,
the song was used later in a film.)

[Willem Orange]

Post by D***@aol.com

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person) its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty. Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car (and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

Unfaithfully Yours -- Rex Harrison, Linda Darnell, directed by Preston Sturges (1948). Harrison plays an orchestra conductor who fantasizes various ways to punish his unfaithful wife. Despite that, it's a comedy, and a good one. As I recall it, Harrison goes into his revenge fantasies while conducting Tchaikovsky's Francesca da Rimini -- an interesting touch. Harrison portrays a famous and urbane conductor apparently modeled upon Sir Thomas Beecham (since among the compliments delivered to him are "nobody handles Handel as well as you handle Handel" and "your Delius is delirious"). I remember a particularly side-splitting episode in which Harrison was sitting on the floor trying to deal with a 1948 tape recorder and getting only moans and groans from it.
Also, I remember seeing a 1940s movie on television decades ago in which Cary Grant portrayed a conductor who at one point was "conducting" Brahms's Academic Festival Overture. (I wrote "conducting" because although he had many genuine gifts, Grant didn't look much like a conductor.) Apologies for not having looked it up among his films. Does anyone know?
The Mummy (the original, early 1930s version with Boris Karloff) -- used Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake as the title music. Or so I recall: again, it's been many years since I've seen it.
Thanks for an interesting topic.
Don Tait

Swan Lake was used for a number of the early Universal horror films Dracula was another

[Willem Orange]

Post by D***@aol.com

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person) its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty. Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car (and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

Unfaithfully Yours -- Rex Harrison, Linda Darnell, directed by Preston Sturges (1948). Harrison plays an orchestra conductor who fantasizes various ways to punish his unfaithful wife. Despite that, it's a comedy, and a good one. As I recall it, Harrison goes into his revenge fantasies while conducting Tchaikovsky's Francesca da Rimini -- an interesting touch. Harrison portrays a famous and urbane conductor apparently modeled upon Sir Thomas Beecham (since among the compliments delivered to him are "nobody handles Handel as well as you handle Handel" and "your Delius is delirious"). I remember a particularly side-splitting episode in which Harrison was sitting on the floor trying to deal with a 1948 tape recorder and getting only moans and groans from it.
Also, I remember seeing a 1940s movie on television decades ago in which Cary Grant portrayed a conductor who at one point was "conducting" Brahms's Academic Festival Overture. (I wrote "conducting" because although he had many genuine gifts, Grant didn't look much like a conductor.) Apologies for not having looked it up among his films. Does anyone know?
The Mummy (the original, early 1930s version with Boris Karloff) -- used Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake as the title music. Or so I recall: again, it's been many years since I've seen it.
Thanks for an interesting topic.
Don Tait

I'll have to see that

[Christopher Webber]

Post by D***@aol.com
Unfaithfully Yours -- Rex Harrison, Linda Darnell, directed by Preston Sturges (1948). Harrison plays an orchestra conductor who fantasizes various ways to punish his unfaithful wife. Despite that, it's a comedy, and a good one. As I recall it, Harrison goes into his revenge fantasies while conducting Tchaikovsky's Francesca da Rimini -- an interesting touch. Harrison portrays a famous and urbane conductor apparently modeled upon Sir Thomas Beecham (since among the compliments delivered to him are "nobody handles Handel as well as you handle Handel" and "your Delius is delirious"). I remember a particularly side-splitting episode in which Harrison was sitting on the floor trying to deal with a 1948 tape recorder and getting only moans and groans from it.

Thoroughly seconded. It is a wonderful (slightly dark) comedy, in which
one is rather rooting for the conductor to finish off his wife.

On a different note, I won't forget the moving surprise at the beginning
of Almodóvar's 'Habla con ella', the first sequence of which is
accompanied by Jennifer Vyvyan's peerless performance of "Oh Let me
Weep" from Purcell's 'Fairy Queen'. I looked around, and saw that I
wasn't the only person who was in tears less than a minute into the
film. Marvellous, and bold. The film's a masterpiece, by the way, and
that opening sets it up beautifully.

[g***@gmail.com]

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person) its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty. Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car (and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

In the outdoor wedding reception scene in GODFATHER I, isn't a woman singing "Non so piu cosa son" to the guests while indoors Sonny Corleone is screwing somebody?

[Matthew Silverstein]

Post by Willem Orange
Any others????

I'm quite fond of Brian de Palma's over-the-top juxtaposition of Pagliacci
with the aftermath of the shooting of Malone (played by Sean Connery) in
The Untouchables. Is that the sort of thing you have in mind?

Matty

[Norman Schwartz]

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film
drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my
head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have
experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother
the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand
Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person)
its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty.
Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of
the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film
and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir
d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when
he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first
meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being
played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car
(and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the
top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's
recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

There Will Be Blood-
Fratres for Cello and Piano Arvo Part
Violin Concerto Brahms

[O]

Post by Norman Schwartz

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film
drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my
head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have
experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother
the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand
Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person)
its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty.
Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of
the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film
and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir
d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when
he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first
meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being
played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car
(and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the
top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's
recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

There Will Be Blood-
Fratres for Cello and Piano Arvo Part
Violin Concerto Brahms

On the comedy side of the scale, Popeye and Bluto conspired to wreak
violence on the Poet and Peasant Overture, with a great piano solo,
corncob pipe and scat singing obbligato. The Three Stooges always
seemed to work in the Septet from Lucy (di Lammermore) and who can
forget Curley's stunning soprano while dressed as Senorita Cucaracha of
Strauss's Voices of Spring, not to mention Larry's fine (!) violin solo
in "Punch Drunks" where his "Pop goes the Weasel" drove Curley to
pugilistic stardom. Various incarnations of Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody
#2, most notably in "Who Framed Roger Rabbit."

-Owen

[Charles Milton Ling]

Post by O

Post by Norman Schwartz

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film
drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my
head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have
experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother
the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand
Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person)
its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty.
Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of
the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film
and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir
d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when
he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first
meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being
played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car
(and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the
top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's
recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

There Will Be Blood-
Fratres for Cello and Piano Arvo Part
Violin Concerto Brahms

On the comedy side of the scale, Popeye and Bluto conspired to wreak
violence on the Poet and Peasant Overture, with a great piano solo,
corncob pipe and scat singing obbligato. The Three Stooges always
seemed to work in the Septet from Lucy (di Lammermore) and who can
forget Curley's stunning soprano while dressed as Senorita Cucaracha of
Strauss's Voices of Spring, not to mention Larry's fine (!) violin solo
in "Punch Drunks" where his "Pop goes the Weasel" drove Curley to
pugilistic stardom. Various incarnations of Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody
#2, most notably in "Who Framed Roger Rabbit."
-Owen

Predated by "Rhapsody Rabbit" starring (of course) Bugs Bunny.

[Al Eisner]

Post by Norman Schwartz

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film
drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my
head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have
experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother
the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand
Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person)
its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty.
Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of
the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film
and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir
d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when
he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first
meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being
played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car
(and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the
top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's
recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

There Will Be Blood-
Fratres for Cello and Piano Arvo Part
Violin Concerto Brahms

The use of the third movement of the VC when the oil well delivers
is pretty obvious, but effective.

Sticking with Brahms, the 60's English slice-of-life film "The L-shaped
Room" is pervaded by music from the first piano concerto. It very much
sets the mood, and is the main thing I recall about the film.

[graham]

"Willem Orange" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:6d59475f-3e97-45c5-aeda-***@googlegroups.com...
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama (I'm
excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my head I came up with
three - I'm sure you have others that you have experienced .

The Horse's Mouth - an Alec Guinness classic used Lt.Kijé to great effect.
Graham

[graham]

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama
(I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my head I came
up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have experienced .
The Horse's Mouth - an Alec Guinness classic used Lt.Kijé to great effect.
Graham

FF to 4:20

[Dave Cook]

Post by Willem Orange
Any others????

The use of Britten's music in Moonrise Kingdom:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/culture/2012/08/wes-anderson-and-benjamin-britten.html

Dave Cook

[RVG]

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film
drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my
head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have
experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother
the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand
Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person)
its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty.
Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of
the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film
and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir
d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when
he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first
meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being
played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car
(and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the
top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's
recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

Kubrick ceased to use any original music for his films starting with
2001, although he had some classical themes transposed for electronic
instruments by Wendy Carlos in "A Clockwork Orange" and "The Shining",
as well as contemporary atonal music (mainly Ligeti).
Barry Lyndon uses Women of Ireland, then Handel's Sarabande and pieces
by Purcell and Schubert.

There's of course Wagner's "Ride Of The Valkyries" in Apocalypse Now:

Andrei Tarkovsky used Bach's music a lot, either "as is" on the organ
or, like Kubrick, transposed for synthesizers by electronic music
pioneer Eduard Artemyev.

Aronofsky's Black Swan of course uses Tchaikovsky's music along the
whole film.

[g***@gmail.com]

Post by RVG

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film
drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my
head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have
experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother
the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand
Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person)
its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty.
Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of
the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film
and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir
d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when
he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first
meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being
played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car
(and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the
top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's
recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

Kubrick ceased to use any original music for his films starting with
2001...

According to Kubrick:

- However good our best film composers may be, they are not a Beethoven, a Mozart or a Brahms. Why use music which is less good when there is such a multitude of great orchestral music available from the past and from our own time? When you are editing a film, it's very helpful to be able to try out different pieces of music to see how they work with the scene...Well, with a little more care and thought, these temporary tracks can become the final score.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001:_A_Space_Odyssey_(score)

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by g***@gmail.com
However good our best film composers may be, they are not a
Beethoven, a Mozart or a Brahms. Why use music which is less
good when there is such a multitude of great orchestral music
available from the past and from our own time?

Less good? I don't think that would apply to Herrmann or Goldsmith.

Post by g***@gmail.com
When you are editing a film, it's very helpful to be able to try out
different pieces of music to see how they work with the scene...
Well, with a little more care and thought, these temporary tracks
can become the final score.

Kubrick brutally insulted Alex North, by having him score 2001, then not using
his music -- without telling him.

North made a really stupid mistake of his own. Kubrick had shown him the film
with the temp tracks -- and North wrote an opening that sounds like
watered-down Strauss. Duh. Why would Kubrick want a pale imitation, when he
could use the original?

[Mr. Mike]

Post by g***@gmail.com
- However good our best film composers may be, they are not a Beethoven, a Mozart or a Brahms. Why use music which is less good when there is such a multitude of great orchestral music available from the past and from our own time? When you are editing a film, it's very helpful to be able to try out different pieces of music to see how they work with the scene...Well, with a little more care and thought, these temporary tracks can become the final score.

This is a stupid attitude, because when you use pieces by Richard
Strauss, Bartok, etc., in films on the soundtrack, people who are
familiar with these pieces already have certain mental images
associated with them.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Mr. Mike

Post by g***@gmail.com
However good our best film composers may be, they are not a Beethoven, a
Mozart or a Brahms. Why use music which is less good when there is such a
multitude of great orchestral music available from the past and from our
own time? When you are editing a film, it's very helpful to be able to try
out different pieces of music to see how they work with the scene...Well,
with a little more care and thought, these temporary tracks can become the
final score.

This is a stupid attitude, because when you use pieces by Richard
Strauss, Bartok, etc., in films on the soundtrack, people who are
familiar with these pieces already have certain mental images
associated with them.

Correct. But (at least with 2001), Kubrick's choices were perfect.

The opening of "Zarathustra" is /supposed/ to represent sunrise. (Kubrick was
probably familiar with the piece, and likely designed the open to fit it.)

"On the Beautiful Blue Danube" (especially in HvK's slow performance) suggests
the space station's turning. Its 19th-century quality contrast nicely with
high tech.

All the other stuff is modern music generally unfamiliar to most viewers, even
classical listeners.

[Christopher Webber]

Post by William Sommerwerck
The opening of "Zarathustra" is /supposed/ to represent sunrise.
(Kubrick was probably familiar with the piece, and likely designed the
open to fit it.)
"On the Beautiful Blue Danube" (especially in HvK's slow performance)
suggests the space station's turning. Its 19th-century quality contrast
nicely with high tech.

In both cases, Kubrick thought of the music first, and then filmed to
fit them. And how marvellously the two, long Blue Danube sequences
(there are two, of course, separated by the scene at the space station)
are choreographed, visually and technically.

Post by William Sommerwerck
All the other stuff is modern music generally unfamiliar to most
viewers, even classical listeners.

I would not describe the adagio from Khachaturian's most popular suite
as "modern music" or "generally unfamiliar". Many people who've been
excited by the Sabre Dance will have gone on to explore the rest of the
suite from his great ballet 'Gayeneh' and they'll know this beautiful
and haunting adagio as a result. And of course in Russia and other old
Eastern bloc countries it is extremely well-known on its own account.

The two Ligeti pieces became modern classics as a result of Kubrick's
use of them in '2001'. I forget where, but I once read that the composer
admitted that he owed much of his fame, and nearly all of his money, to
that lucky chance. Certainly these two choral pieces have led many
listeners who heard them first here, into his uniquely luminous, quirky
sound world: you can count me amongst that number!

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by William Sommerwerck
All the other stuff is modern music generally unfamiliar to most
viewers, even classical listeners.

I would not describe the adagio from Khachaturian's most popular suite as
"modern music" or "generally unfamiliar".

Whoops! Forgot about that. Sorry.

The two Ligeti pieces became modern classics as a result of Kubrick's use of
them in '2001'. I forget where, but I once read that the composer admitted
that he owed much of his fame, and nearly all of his money,
to that lucky chance. Certainly these two choral pieces have led many
listeners who heard them first here, into his uniquely luminous, quirky
sound world: you can count me amongst that number!

Not all of the pieces are choral. And Ligeti wasn't happy about with the way
Kubrick modified Aventures.

"Atmospheres" is one of those works you can't imagine anyone /not/ liking. It
was unlike anything I'd ever heard, yet immediately comprehensible. When it
premiered in 1960, it was supposedly encored /twice/.

[Gerard]

"Christopher Webber" wrote in message news:***@mid.individual.net...


I would not describe the adagio from Khachaturian's most popular suite
as "modern music" or "generally unfamiliar". Many people who've been
excited by the Sabre Dance will have gone on to explore the rest of the
suite from his great ballet 'Gayeneh' and they'll know this beautiful
and haunting adagio as a result. And of course in Russia and other old
Eastern bloc countries it is extremely well-known on its own account.

==================

Which adagio by Khachaturian are you referring to?
If that is the adagio from 'Spartacus': AFAIK it is not well known by a
movie, but by a TV series.

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Gerard
Which adagio by Khachaturian are you referring to?
If that is the adagio from 'Spartacus': AFAIK it is not well known by a
movie, but by a TV series.

No, the "Adagio of Spartacus and Phrygiais" from his later ballet
'Spartacus' is a bird of quite a different feather!

The 'Gayeneh' adagio is not so well-known as that, I grant you, though
the music from this earlier ballet is as a whole, more popular than the
rest of the Spartacus score. There is the Sabre Dance for starters...

The fact that this well-known piece from '2001' is not even
Khachaturian's most *famous* Adagio tells us much about his amazing
popularity on big- and small-screen!

[William Sommerwerck]

The fact that this well-known piece from '2001' is not even Khachaturian's
most *famous* Adagio tells us much about
his amazing popularity on big- and small-screen!

You're kidding, aren't you? Khachaturian was a sort of Soviet Ferde Grofe.

His popular works are so devoid of emotional or intellectual interest that
I've never been interested in investigating his other pieces, which might
include a gem or two. Are there any?

[Christopher Webber]

Post by William Sommerwerck
You're kidding, aren't you? Khachaturian was a sort of Soviet Ferde Grofe.

Only if Shostakovich was a sort of Soviet Gershwin.

Khachaturian wrote some extremely good pieces, and the colour and
vitality of most of his work is thrilling in performance. Unless you
believe that popularity is by definition a bad thing, there is plenty of
good (and technically well-written) music here to enjoy.

It's not all good, of course. But there's plenty of life and fire even
in some of his cruder sonic experiments (such as the egregiously loud
3rd, with its battery of fifteen extra trumpets plus organ).

Post by William Sommerwerck
His popular works are so devoid of emotional or intellectual interest
that I've never been interested in investigating his other pieces, which
might include a gem or two. Are there any?

Unless you're looking for something ingenious such as Ketèlbey's
'Tangled Tunes', I don't know what "intellectual interest" one might be
looking for in the context of popular orchestral music, or what place it
might have. Aram K's emotional kick is undeniable. That, William, is why
it's popular! Have you never cavorted around the room to his Sabre
Dance? I certainly have, and thoroughly enjoyed the experience.

And that Adagio we've been discussing is as deep as it is beautiful and
moving. What would you have?

So's the other, more "famous" one, too - and the way he gives you
fragments of the big tune earlier in the 'Spartacus' ballet before
letting loose with it in the love scene is marvellous Hollywood schlock,
quite on a par with Kubrick's film on that subject... which brings us
back to topic.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Christopher Webber
Khachaturian wrote some extremely good pieces, and the colour and
vitality of most of his work is thrilling in performance. Unless you
believe that popularity is by definition a bad thing, there is plenty
of good (and technically well-written) music here to enjoy.

In the Fifth Grove's, the Rachmaninov article states, in so many words, that
the composer's popularity shows what a poor composer he was. By that logic,
you might add virtually every other famous composer to the list.

I've heard nothing of substance in any Khachaturian work I've listened to.
Sure, his music is well-crafted, but it's written to appeal to an undemanding
taste that insists on immediate gratification. (That isn't meant personally.)

Post by Christopher Webber

Post by William Sommerwerck
His popular works are so devoid of emotional or intellectual interest
that I've never been interested in investigating his other pieces, which
might include a gem or two. Are there any?

Unless you're looking for something ingenious such as Ketèlbey's
'Tangled Tunes', I don't know what "intellectual interest" one might
be looking for in the context of popular orchestral music, or what place
it might have.

Don't you like counterpoint and fugue? Part of their listening pleasure comes
when you switch from hearing the music as a whole, to paying attention to the
separate voices and their interaction.

Post by Christopher Webber
Aram K's emotional kick is undeniable. That, William, is why
it's popular! Have you never cavorted around the room to his Sabre
Dance? I certainly have, and thoroughly enjoyed the experience.

I find it dull. But I remember the moment, ca 1970, when I first heard the
"Rhenish". I jumped off the sofa and started humming and dancing. (The Wand
performance, by the way.)

I'd rather cavort with Afghans.

Post by Christopher Webber
And that Adagio we've been discussing is as deep as it is beautiful
and moving.

I seem to remember reading that Kubrick picked the piece because (in his mind)
it reflected the unchanging dullness of the astronauts' daily existence.

Post by Christopher Webber
What would you have?

Brahms and Schumann. Schumann's orchestral music is always thrilling, while
some of his piano music is sufficiently challenging that I still haven't
absorbed it. I've always been drawn to Brahms' darkness. I listen to "A German
Requiem" every month or two, simply for the pleasure of crying my head off.

Not every piece of music has to be deep or profound. But Khachaturian is like
Oakland -- there's no "there", there. Even as simple "entertainment", it isn't
worth my time. I'd rather listen to G&S or Ashman & Menken.

Life is short, and Khachaturian's "Let’s not anger the Soviet apparatchiks"
music has no place in it. There's tons of music from "good" composers I still
haven't heard.

PS: I recently dragged out Michael Kamen's saxophone concerto for a second
listen. Is this as shallow a piece of music as I think it is?

[Christopher Webber]

Post by William Sommerwerck
Life is short, and Khachaturian's "Let’s not anger the Soviet
apparatchiks" music has no place in it.

This was never his attitude. Look at his face when he got denounced,
along with Shostakovich and Prokofiev, at the infamous 1948 conference.
He was a true son of the revolutionary, not an oprichnik, who was
destroyed when he saw how that revolution had been betrayed. There is
nothing - absolutely nothing - of the toady in his music.

Beware of any temptation to turn composers into "goodies and baddies".
Music is not like a Hollywood Western, just as Khachaturian is not like
a Ferdy Grofe.

Post by William Sommerwerck
Sure, his music is well-crafted, but it's written to appeal to an undemanding taste that insists on immediate gratification.

When "immediate gratification" occurs multiple times, and doesn't wear
off, I think we're talking about art, not schlock. It is sexier than
Brahms, to be sure. I have yet to tire of 'Gayeneh' and the 'Masquerade'
Suite (though I wouldn't want to hear them every day, any more than I'd
want wall-to-wall Pines of Rome).

Post by William Sommerwerck
Don't you like counterpoint and fugue? Part of their listening pleasure comes when you switch from hearing the music as a whole, to paying attention to the separate voices and their interaction.

We're talking about "popular orchestral music", and I'm not sure that
fugal techniques have a regular place there (though Ronnie Binge wrote
some fabulous ones). Counterpoint is inescapable, and Aram Kachaturian
is, in fact, rather good at it. Listen to the Waltz from 'Masquerade'.
The way he combines the various motifs is masterly, just as much so as
Binge's brilliant display of counterpoint in his 'Elizabethan Serenade'.

Post by William Sommerwerck
I seem to remember reading that Kubrick picked the piece because (in his mind) it reflected the unchanging dullness of the astronauts' daily existence.

Back to "that Adagio". Yes, it is incomparable in portraying a state of
ennui bordering on depressive. I know of no other piece which portrays
such nagging, mental anguish so piercingly. Our Mental Charity 'Mind'
used it in an advert once, for that very reason. It is great writing.

[Gerard]

"Christopher Webber" wrote in message news:***@mid.individual.net...

Back to "that Adagio". Yes, it is incomparable in portraying a state of
ennui bordering on depressive. I know of no other piece which portrays
such nagging, mental anguish so piercingly. Our Mental Charity 'Mind'
used it in an advert once, for that very reason. It is great writing.

==========================

Is this the Adagio under discussion:

http://www.jpc.de/mp3/502/5029365925624_07.mp3
(found at
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Aram-Khachaturian-1903-1978-Ballettsuiten/hnum/1994390)

I don't hear ennui, or something despressive, or anguish.
Could the performance by Svetlanov be the cause of that?

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Gerard
http://www.jpc.de/mp3/502/5029365925624_07.mp3
(found at
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Aram-Khachaturian-1903-1978-Ballettsuiten/hnum/1994390)
I don't hear ennui, or something despressive, or anguish.
Could the performance by Svetlanov be the cause of that?

It is the right Adagio. Svetlanov takes it rather fast, but it is fine.
You have to stick with it for much longer before the sense of ennui
becomes apparent. It's when the counterpoint [sic., William!] starts
entwining the melody that the sense of claustrophobia increases.

[Gerard]

Post by Gerard
http://www.jpc.de/mp3/502/5029365925624_07.mp3
(found at
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Aram-Khachaturian-1903-1978-Ballettsuiten/hnum/1994390)
I don't hear ennui, or something despressive, or anguish.
Could the performance by Svetlanov be the cause of that?

It is the right Adagio. Svetlanov takes it rather fast, but it is fine.
You have to stick with it for much longer before the sense of ennui
becomes apparent. It's when the counterpoint [sic., William!] starts
entwining the melody that the sense of claustrophobia increases.

================

I also listened to the recording by Rozhdestvensky, who is much slower. But
again no sense of ennui (or claustrophobia). What I hear is serenity and
desolation. Some moments come close to Bartok's Music for strings, celesta
etc., but without the anguish.

[Christopher Webber]

But again no sense of ennui (or claustrophobia). What I hear is serenity
and desolation.

Desolation most certainly. The ennui registers (for me) in the rocking
semiquavers at the third, which cannot settle to the tonic and are
treated to some sourly melancholic harmonisation.

I'd be happy to demonstrate my point fully with some Deryk Cookeian
"Language of Music" analysis, but the beauty of this lovely piece is
that it can mean many things, to many people, at many times.

[Gerard]

But again no sense of ennui (or claustrophobia). What I hear is serenity
and desolation.

Desolation most certainly. The ennui registers (for me) in the rocking
semiquavers at the third, which cannot settle to the tonic and are
treated to some sourly melancholic harmonisation.

I'd be happy to demonstrate my point fully with some Deryk Cookeian
"Language of Music" analysis, but the beauty of this lovely piece is
that it can mean many things, to many people, at many times.

=========================

I tried to find what the 'role' of this Adagio is in the ballet, but could
not find a good synopsis.
I have 2 "complete" recordings: Tjeknavorian (RCA, +/- 75% of the complete
score of 1942 - with this Adagio, but no words about it in the booklet), and
Kakhidze (Melodiya). The last one - using the revision of 1957 - however is
WITHOUT the Adagio!

[Christopher Webber]

I have 2 "complete" recordings: Tjeknavorian (RCA, ± 75% of the complete
score of 1942 - with this Adagio, but no words about it in the booklet),
and Kakhidze (Melodiya). The last one - using the revision of 1957 -
however is WITHOUT the Adagio!

I know - that Melodiya is of K's "revised" version, which he was
instructed to make more tight, and more bright. Thus, the beautiful
Adagio disappeared. I suspect he was making a point. Crazy....

As far as I recall, the Adagio is a solo dance for the virtuous heroine
in a moment of ... ennui (?!) More likely desolation, of course.

[Terry]

Post by William Sommerwerck

The fact that this well-known piece from '2001' is not even Khachaturian's
most *famous* Adagio tells us much about
his amazing popularity on big- and small-screen!

You're kidding, aren't you? Khachaturian was a sort of Soviet Ferde Grofe.
His popular works are so devoid of emotional or intellectual interest that
I've never been interested in investigating his other pieces, which might
include a gem or two. Are there any?

I suspect a listen to Khachaturian's Violin and 'Cello concertos would
convince you otherwise.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Terry
I suspect a listen to Khachaturian's Violin and 'Cello concertos would
convince you otherwise.

Okay! I'll give them a shot.

[Christopher Webber]

Post by William Sommerwerck
Okay! I'll give them a shot.

William, have you tried the Piano Concerto? Classic use of the flexatone...

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by William Sommerwerck
Okay! I'll give them a shot.
William, have you tried the Piano Concerto? Classic use of the Flexatone...

I've added the Supraphon two-disk set to my Want List. It includes the violin,
cello, and piano concertos. Budget's tight; don't know when I'll be getting
it.

As an aside... Do you know what a Varitone is? (No fair peeking.)

[Christopher Webber]

Post by William Sommerwerck
As an aside... Do you know what a Varitone is?

No idea! Is it a bipolar baritone?

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Christopher Webber

Post by William Sommerwerck
As an aside... Do you know what a Varitone is?

No idea! Is it a bipolar baritone?

Like Jim Nabors?

It's a Selmer microphone/amplifier for woodwinds. I remember when it was
introduced. There was article about it in "Electronics World".

[Christopher Webber]

Post by William Sommerwerck
It's a Selmer microphone/amplifier for woodwinds.

My life is enriched, William. Thank you.

[Bozo]

Post by Christopher Webber

Post by William Sommerwerck
As an aside... Do you know what a Varitone is?

No idea! Is it a bipolar baritone?

2 marks to Webber !

[Christopher Webber]

Post by William Sommerwerck
I've added the Supraphon two-disk set to my Want List. It includes the
violin, cello, and piano concertos. Budget's tight; don't know when I'll
be getting it.

Recordings on this set are ... well, varitone in quality.

The 2-CD Supraphon set with Chalabala and the Czech PO, coupling 50
minutes of 'Gayeneh' with one of the best 'Scheherazade' performances
available is more congenial, for me at least.

The Decca set of the concertos, with the 2nd Symphony and the
'Masquerade' suite, is at a much higher level: though you'd be looking
elsewhere for the concertante cello works:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Khachaturian-Concerto-Violin-Masquerade-Symphony/dp/B0000042DF

[William Sommerwerck]

I completely forgot "MusicLand". This Disney cartoon has two countries -- the
Land of Symphony and the Isle of Jazz -- at war over the elopement of two of
their citizens. The opening titles use the Eroica, I think.

[Joe]

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person) its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty. Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car (and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

Kubrick as mentioned was a master at this--never better, IMO, than that scene in Barry Lyndon which follows Ryan O'Neal's pursuit of Marisa Berenson from a candlelit card game to a moonlit patio, the visual pace precisely matched to the slow movement of a Schubert piano trio.

The enormous ape head floating along to the allegretto of the Beethoven 7th symphony at the beginning of Zardoz is also rather neat, though totally ridiculous.

Joe Markley
Plantsville, Connecticut

[Peter H.]

Post by Joe
The enormous ape head floating along to the allegretto of the Beethoven 7th symphony at the beginning of Zardoz is also rather neat, though totally ridiculous.
Joe Markley
Plantsville, Connecticut

Beethoven's 7th also featured in The King's Speech.

[O]

Post by Peter H.

Post by Joe
The enormous ape head floating along to the allegretto of the Beethoven 7th
symphony at the beginning of Zardoz is also rather neat, though totally
ridiculous.
Joe Markley
Plantsville, Connecticut

Beethoven's 7th also featured in The King's Speech.

Herzog's "Fitzcarraldo" has quite a few opera excerpts in it, in
addition to being a great movie.

-Owen

[Peter H.]

Post by O
Herzog's "Fitzcarraldo" has quite a few opera excerpts in it, in
addition to being a great movie.
-Owen

There's also the unforgettable scene in "Philadelphia" featuring "La momma morta"

[RVG]

Post by Joe

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film
drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my
head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have
experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother
the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand
Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real
person) its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping
Beauty. Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that
the eyes of the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand
Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film
and he also uses classical music at times through the film.
"Plaisir d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris
Townsend when he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is
played when he first meets her at a dance and teaches her the right
steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being
played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car
(and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the
top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's
recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

Kubrick as mentioned was a master at this--never better, IMO, than
that scene in Barry Lyndon which follows Ryan O'Neal's pursuit of
Marisa Berenson from a candlelit card game to a moonlit patio, the
visual pace precisely matched to the slow movement of a Schubert
piano trio.

That and the final duel scene on Handel's Sarabande.

Post by Joe
The enormous ape head floating along to the allegretto of the
Beethoven 7th symphony at the beginning of Zardoz is also rather
neat, though totally ridiculous.

A judgement that unfortunately applies to all the films of Boorman.
"Excalibur" uses Wagner's music extensively, but the film looks quite
average and hasn't aged well at all.

I add Visconti's "Death in Venice" where the main character is inspired
by Mahler. The most memorable scene plays on the Adagietto of the 5th
Symphony.

[Norman Schwartz]

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film
drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios).

How about a documentary?
Ken Burns': The War

Off the top of my

Post by Willem Orange
head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have
experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother
the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand
Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person)
its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty.
Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of
the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film
and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir
d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when
he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first
meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being
played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car
(and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the
top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's
recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

[Aage Johansen]

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios).

Isn't a group playing chamber music in the opening of "Master and
Commander"? Don't know whether this was written for the movie, but
could be something from Haydn, perhaps.

In "Seven samurais" there are scenes with what I think sounds like
something taken from Sibelius's "En saga". Anyone knows for sure?

[John Wiser]

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama (I'm excluding musicals
and musical bios).

Isn't a group playing chamber music in the opening of "Master and Commander"? Don't know whether
this was written for the movie, but could be something from Haydn, perhaps.

From Wikipedia:
"
Iva Davies lead singer of the Australian band Icehouse traveled to Los Angeles to record the
soundtrack to the film with Christopher Gordon and Richard Tognetti. Together, they won the 2004
APRA/AGSC Screen Music Award in the "Best Soundtrack Album" category. The score includes an
assortment of baroque and classical music, notably the first of Bach's Suites for Unaccompanied
Cello, Suite No. 1 in G major, BWV 1007, played by Yo-Yo Ma; the Strassburg theme in the third
movement of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's Violin Concerto No. 3; the third (Adagio) movement of
Corelli's Christmas Concerto (Concerto grosso in G minor, Op. 6, No. 8); and a recurring rendition
of Ralph Vaughan Williams's Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis. The music played on cello before
the end is Luigi Boccherini's String Quintet (Quintettino) for 2 violins, viola & 2 cellos in C
major ("Musica notturna delle strade di Madrid"), G. 324 Op. 30. The two arrangements of this cue
contained in the CD differ significantly from the one heard in the movie.

The song sung in the wardroom is "Don't Forget Your Old Shipmates." The tunes sung and played by the
crew on deck at night are "O'Sullivan's March", "Spanish Ladies" and "The British Tars" ("The
shipwrecked tar"), which was set to tune of "Bonnie Ship the Diamond" and called "Raging Sea/Bonnie
Ship the Diamond" on the soundtrack."

posted by jdw

[Terry]

Post by Aage Johansen

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama
(I'm excluding musicals and musical bios).

Isn't a group playing chamber music in the opening of "Master and
Commander"? Don't know whether this was written for the movie, but
could be something from Haydn, perhaps.
In "Seven samurais" there are scenes with what I think sounds like
something taken from Sibelius's "En saga". Anyone knows for sure?

Two of the main characters play Boccherini's "Changing of the Guard in
Madrid" (or some similar title) on violin and 'cello. Vaughan Williams'
Tallis Fantasia is used also during a big storm at sea.

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Terry

Post by Aage Johansen
In "Seven samurais" there are scenes with what I think sounds like
something taken from Sibelius's "En saga". Anyone knows for sure?

Two of the main characters play Boccherini's "Changing of the Guard in
Madrid" (or some similar title) on violin and 'cello. Vaughan Williams'
Tallis Fantasia is used also during a big storm at sea.

I don't remember either of these scenes in Kurosawa's 'Seven Samurai'!

The music for that film is entirely original (though like 99% of film
music entirely derivative too). It is by Fumio Hayasaka, whose concert
works - at least the ones I've heard - were written under a heavy
Sibelian cloud, with pedal points abounding.

Boccherini's marvellous nocturnal 'retirada de Madrid' exists in a
number of forms, as part of several of his chamber works. It was a great
popular favourite, and quite right too. It's not exactly the changing of
the guard, but their approach and passing into the distance as they head
back into the barracks at the end of their day's work.

The orchestrated version by Berio (as 'ritirata notturna di madrid') is
screamingly good, too, and can be seen here:

[r***@spiritone.com]

Maybe an odd choice: My Geisha w/ Shirley Maclaine. A movie of a making a movie of Madama Butterfly. The film came out in 1962 and the scenes of what Butterfly would have been look gorgeous.

[Rob Lindauer]

Post by Willem Orange
Any others????

My favorite is John Adams' "Harmonielehre" - used as the soundtrack for
"I Am Love" (2009) and for Peter Sellars' "The Cabinet of Dr Ramirez"
(1991).

I heard the latter on a PBS broadcast in 1991, was blown away by the
music, and stayed glued to the TV till the final credits to see what the
heck it was was. The de Waart recording was my very first audio CD
purchase.

[Gerald Martin]

Second movement (Allegro) from Shostakovich Symphony No. 10 in The Brain Eaters (1958).

[weary flake]

Post by Gerald Martin
Second movement (Allegro) from Shostakovich Symphony No. 10 in The Brain Eaters (1958).

Brain Eaters got no Shostakovich 11, but passages from Shostakovich 5,
Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet, cantata of Alexander Nevsky, etc., though
none of those composers are mentioned in the credits. It might be my
favorite film score, along with Robot Monster (1953), Plan 9 from
Outer Space (1959) and Triumph of the Will (1935).

[Mr. Mike]

On Fri, 21 Mar 2014 08:36:54 -0700, weary flake

Post by weary flake
It might be my
favorite film score, along with Robot Monster (1953)...

Scored by Elmer Bernstein!

[whiskynsplash]

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have experienced .
1.Anastasia - when a meeting between Anastasia and her grandmother the Grand Duchess is finally engineered (in order to get the Grand Duchess's recognition of Anastasia as actually being the real person) its done at an opera house during a performance of Sleeping Beauty. Its during the dramatic opening chords of that work that the eyes of the shy, insecure Anastasia and the implacable Grand Duchess meet.
2. The Heiress - Copland got the Oscar for his scoring of the film and he also uses classical music at times through the film. "Plaisir d'amore" is heard over and over (and played by Morris Townsend when he is wooing Catherine) and Gossec's Gavotte is played when he first meets her at a dance and teaches her the right steps,
3. All About Eve - I never knew what the gorgeous music was being played on the radio when Margo and her friend are stranded in a car (and Margo talks about the things she had to drop on the way to the top that are now gone for her) --until I heard Maggie Teyte's recording of Debussy's "Beau Soir" - couldn't be more poignant.
Any others????

A nice little '70s film "Breaking Away" used a Rossini overture appropriately enough for the scenes of the teenage hero's attempts to compete with an Italian cycling team. The film also showed that the class system was alive and well in America because the four boys in the gang called themselves "cutters" after their fathers who had been stone cutters when Indiana University was being built. The wealthier students at the University looked down upon these working class youths.

The Indian film director, Satyajit Ray, who won a belated Oscar just before he died, listened to Western Classical Music on records. Although he used Indian Classical Musicians, among them Ravi Shankar, to score his films he also introduced Western Classical music snippets when he felt the scene required more tension. I am pretty sure I hear some Sibelius (4th Symphony) in a scene from his first and best known film "Pather Panchali," which roughly translates to "Song of the Road" and is the first installment of the Apu Trilogy. There is also some Sibelius in his film "Jalsager" or "The Music Room". I will post more when I have a rather good biography which I own closer to hand. As Trivial Pursuit, Matt Groening, responsible for "The Simpsons" and "Futurama" named his Indian convenience store Kwik-E-Mart owner Apu, after the boy Apu in "Pather Panchali." Thus proving that some creative Americans *do* watch foreign films with subtitles!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048473/
http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Apu_Nahasapeemapetilon

The Japanese film director, Akira Kurosawa, also listened to Western Classical Music and discussed the music he wanted with his music directors, notably Fumio Hayasaka. One of his early, less successful films, "One Wonderful Sunday" ends with an imagined performance of the 1st movement Schubert's "Unfinished Symphony" conducted by the male lead.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/movies/videos/onewonderfulsundaynrkempley_a0caf5.htm

Will post more when I have Kurosawa's autobiography closer to hand.

[Christopher Webber]

Post by whiskynsplash
One of his early, less successful films, "One Wonderful Sunday" ends with an imagined performance of the 1st movement Schubert's "Unfinished Symphony" conducted by the male lead.

Lesser-known in the West, certainly; but among his most successful at
the time, at home. As it deals with the oppression and grinding poverty
of Japanese society during the American occupation, perhaps the USA's
decision to overlook it is understandable.

[whiskynsplash]

On Thursday, March 20, 2014 2:02:21 AM UTC-5, whiskynsplash wrote:

"I am pretty sure I hear some Sibelius (4th Symphony) in a scene from his first and best known film "Pather Panchali,"

I lied when I said that because I viewed the film again last night after several years and to my chagrin there was no Sibelius. However, I do have an aural memory of hearing the snippet in one of Satyajit Ray's films, so I will just have to watch them all again -- a very pleasant prospect!

There is however, a delightful scene of a village brass band at a wedding playing a very weird version of "It's a Long, Long Way to Tipperary" which was one of the first 78s that the schoolboy Ray bought when he became interested in music. Apparently he also had to sell his record collection to fund the making of the film. In 1950 on his first trip to London and then on to the continent, he and his wife, after being defrauded by a ticket seller, were offered seats by a couple of German students at a performance of Mozart's "The Magic Flute" conducted by Furtwangler. It remained his favorite opera.

I get this information from Satyajit Ray: The Inner Eye by Andrew Robinson.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v12/n05/salman-rushdie/homage-to-satyajit-ray

[Mark Obert-Thorn]

On Thursday, March 20, 2014 3:02:21 AM UTC-4, whiskynsplash wrote:
<<A nice little '70s film "Breaking Away" used a Rossini overture appropriately enough for the scenes of the teenage hero's attempts to compete with an Italian cycling team.>>

I don't remember the Rossini overture, but I do recall that the opening of Mendelssohn's "Italian" Symphony is featured prominently during the cycling scenes.

Mark O-T

[Alan Cooper]

Post by Mark Obert-Thorn
<<A nice little '70s film "Breaking Away" used a Rossini overture
appropriately enough for the scenes of the teenage hero's attempts to
compete with an Italian cycling team.>>
I don't remember the Rossini overture, but I do recall that the
opening of Mendelssohn's "Italian" Symphony is featured prominently
during the cycling scenes.

One of my favorite movies, and yes, it's the "Italian" Symphony. Perhaps
the confusion was occasioned by Paul Dooley's amusing screed against "ini
food" (linguini, zucchini, etc.).

Concerning classical music in film, has anyone mentioned Kurosawa's "One
Wonderful Sunday?" The film is sub-minor Kurosawa, issued in video with
hilariously bad subtitles. Some weirdly orchestrated Schubert pops up in
the soundtrack from time to time. At one point the protagonists (a young
couple trying to figure out how to spend a Sunday together with no money)
decide to go to a cheap concert to hear (according to the subtitle) "the
incomplete orchestra". Given the Schubert in the score, and the fact
that there was an onscreen poster that read "Schubert" in English
characters, it took only a moment to figure out what "the incomplete
orchestra" was, and just a moment more for my wife and me to be convulsed
with laughter.

AC

[Christopher Webber]

Post by Alan Cooper
Concerning classical music in film, has anyone mentioned Kurosawa's "One
Wonderful Sunday?" The film is sub-minor Kurosawa, issued in video with
hilariously bad subtitles.

Yes, it has been mentioned, Alan.

Personally, I think it is more like sub-major Kurosawa, with all of the
social acerbity and none of the pretension of some of later contemporary
films in the same vein - but one needs better subtitles (as in the
Criterion release) for its finer qualities to be revealed. A lovely film...

[Mike Painter]

Post by Mark Obert-Thorn
<<A nice little '70s film "Breaking Away" used a Rossini overture
appropriately enough for the scenes of the teenage hero's attempts to compete
with an Italian cycling team.>>
I don't remember the Rossini overture, but I do recall that the opening of
Mendelssohn's "Italian" Symphony is featured prominently during the cycling
scenes.
Mark O-T

You're correct about the Mendelssohn. And it was a nice film, too.

cheers,
Mike

[whiskynsplash]

Post by Mark Obert-Thorn
<<A nice little '70s film "Breaking Away" used a Rossini overture appropriately enough for the scenes of the teenage hero's attempts to compete with an Italian cycling team.>>
I don't remember the Rossini overture, but I do recall that the opening of Mendelssohn's "Italian" Symphony is featured prominently during the cycling scenes.
Mark O-T

IMDB has this list of music on the soundtrack (but who can trust them?):

Symphony No. 4 in A major (Italian Symphony), Op. 90
(uncredited)
Music by Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy

Il barbiere di Siviglia: Sinfonia
(uncredited)
Music by Gioachino Rossini

M' apparì tutt' amor
(uncredited)
from "Marta" (Italian version)
Music by Friedrich von Flotow
Sung by Dennis Christopher

Bury Me Not On The Lone Prarie
(uncredited)
Traditional ballad
Sung by Dennis Quaid with modified lyrics (Deliver Me From The A&P)

The Star Spangled Banner
(1814) (uncredited)
Music by John Stafford Smith
Lyrics by Francis Scott Key
Played and Sung by people at the 500 Race, led by Jennifer F. Nolan

Indiana, Our Indiana
(1912) (uncredited)
(Indiana University's official fight song)
Music by Russell P. Harker
Lyrics by Karl King
Sung at the 500 Race and at the end

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have experienced .

Has anyone mentioned Terrence Malick's movies, starting with the Carl Orff piece in Badlands (which was played on the PA system as a kind of background theme on summer days at Tanglewood for many years) and up through the 37 tracks included in The Tree of Life (all of course called "songs" in this Hollywood listing):
http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/music_list_all_37_songs_features_in_terrence_malicks_the_tree_of_life?page=2#blogPostHeaderPanel

Alex Ross posted about The Tree of Life in his blog, The Rest Is Noise, including a trailer for the film with wall-to-wall music & no voices: http://www.therestisnoise.com/2011/05/music-of-the-tree-of-life.html

But somewhat surprisingly, Ross doesn't mention the work that launches the trailer, Giya Kancheli's Morning Prayers, a lovely and haunting 20-minute piece in hyper-meditative post-Gorecki mode.

As for the film overall: wonderful visual effects, strong performances and great music didn't quite add up for me due to the somewhat sententious auteur-driven script. But it's still well worth seeing for anyone interested in the subject of this thread.

John Temple

btw, I tried posting this a few days ago and got an error message. Anyone else having the same trouble?

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Post by Willem Orange
Classical music can be used to tremendous effect in straight film drama (I'm excluding musicals and musical bios). Off the top of my head I came up with three - I'm sure you have others that you have experienced .

The Romanze from Chopin's Piano Concerto No. 1 is very effective for framing the sweet artificiality of life in the manufactured town that Jim Carey's character inhabits in "The Truman Show".

-P