Discussion:
Unsurpassable (please don't hit me) Recordings
(too old to reply)
Precious Roy
2012-09-20 01:22:44 UTC
Permalink
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.

I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.

I can tell you some of mine; and I'm aware that they are not discoveries of my own:

Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov

What are some of yours?
Oscar
2012-09-20 01:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Désormière's Pelléas et Mélisande.
p***@gmail.com
2012-09-20 02:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar
Désormière's Pelléas et Mélisande.
Thanks!
I'll add another one of my own: Smetana's Piano Trio by the Oistrakh Trio.
wagnerfan
2012-09-20 09:58:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Oscar
Désormière's Pelléas et Mélisande.
Thanks!
I'll add another one of my own: Smetana's Piano Trio by the Oistrakh Trio.
Callas Tosca EMI 1953
Solti Gotterdammerung Decca 1964
Toscanini Otello RCA 1947

Wagner fan
Oscar
2012-09-20 11:19:02 UTC
Permalink
Ljuba Welitsch as Salome in the famous recording of the closing scene,
with Matačić: http://tiny.cc/9blxkw YouTube: http://tiny.cc/aglxkw
It's like the greatest heavy metal ever, and similar to DiMaggio's 56
game hitting streak — Welitsch got it locked up!
HvT
2012-09-20 10:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just
never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it
makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered
standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also
won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard
recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm
talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our
listening habits.
I can tell you some of mine; and I'm aware that they are not
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
Only two:
Horowitz's second version of the Kreisleriana
Gould's live Goldbergs

Henk
Lena
2012-09-20 10:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by HvT
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just
never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it
makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered
standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also
won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard
recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm
talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our
listening habits.
I can tell you some of mine; and I'm aware that they are not
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
Horowitz's second version of the Kreisleriana
Gould's live Goldbergs
Beethoven, Archduke, Cortot-Thibaud-Casals
Haydn, London symphonies, Bruggen (though I often visit other
versions)
Chopin, Barcarolle, Sofronitsky (however differently I try to spell
it, it's the same recording)

Lena
(I like this thread!)
Steve Emerson
2012-09-22 21:15:37 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Lena
Post by HvT
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just
never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it
makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered
standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also
won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard
recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm
talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our
listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
Horowitz's second version of the Kreisleriana
Gould's live Goldbergs
Beethoven, Archduke, Cortot-Thibaud-Casals
Haydn, London symphonies, Bruggen (though I often visit other
versions)
Chopin, Barcarolle, Sofronitsky (however differently I try to spell
it, it's the same recording)
Thoroughly agree with Lena on Sofronitsky's Barcarolle. So much that it
helps one understand that the question makes sense.

And looking at Precious Roy's first paragraph -- there are some things
that come to mind. When I hear anybody else's account of the piece, I'm
always disappointed. (OTOH, I mostly agree with Mark, for once -- that
there's a lot of "but then" when it comes to working out what one's
favored performance of a work is.)

Sofronitsky, anyway, accounts for several of mine:

Chopin Scherzo #1 plus Barcarolle, Schumann Sonata #1, Schubert
Impromptus 3 and 4.

Brahms String Quartet Op 51/2 -- Janacek Quartet
Dvorak Trio #3 -- Suk Trio
Haydn Opus 20/2 -- Tatrai Quartet
Haydn Opus 54/2 -- Juilliard String Quartet
Haydn Symphony #96 -- Van Beinum/RCO
Dvorak Quartet #13 -- Vlach Quartet
Janacek's two quartets -- the Janacek Quartet (Supraphon)
Chopin Etudes Op 25 -- Sokolov
Chopin Etude 10/9 -- Cortot
Rachmaninoff Prelude in c sharp minor -- Rachmaninoff
Chopin Waltz in c sharp minor -- Rachmaninoff
Mozart Rondo K. 511 -- Schnabel

SE.
Alan Cooper
2012-09-22 21:49:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Emerson
Thoroughly agree with Lena on Sofronitsky's Barcarolle. So much that
it helps one understand that the question makes sense.
And looking at Precious Roy's first paragraph -- there are some things
that come to mind. When I hear anybody else's account of the piece,
I'm always disappointed. (OTOH, I mostly agree with Mark, for once --
that there's a lot of "but then" when it comes to working out what
one's favored performance of a work is.)
Chopin Scherzo #1 plus Barcarolle, Schumann Sonata #1, Schubert
Impromptus 3 and 4.
Brahms String Quartet Op 51/2 -- Janacek Quartet
Dvorak Trio #3 -- Suk Trio
Haydn Opus 20/2 -- Tatrai Quartet
Haydn Opus 54/2 -- Juilliard String Quartet
Haydn Symphony #96 -- Van Beinum/RCO
Dvorak Quartet #13 -- Vlach Quartet
Janacek's two quartets -- the Janacek Quartet (Supraphon)
Chopin Etudes Op 25 -- Sokolov
Chopin Etude 10/9 -- Cortot
Rachmaninoff Prelude in c sharp minor -- Rachmaninoff
Chopin Waltz in c sharp minor -- Rachmaninoff
Mozart Rondo K. 511 -- Schnabel
SE.
Well, I knew that Steve would come up with some of my favorites, so all
I'd have to do would be to nod in agreement, especially with respect to
the chamber music. Perhaps more controversially, I'd add the first
Budapest SQ recording of Brahms op. 67--certainly a unique performance if
not "unsurpassable."

I don't know why Steve confines the Tatrai to op. 20/2 when the other
five performances in the set are just as great. I'd also stick in one or
another Hungarian SQ "Lark."

Once you're going with the Suk Trio in Dvorak op. 65, you might as well
include their op. 90, esp. the Panenka/Suk/Sadlo rendition on Eloquence.
If the Czech Trio recording (Palenicek/Plocek/Sadlo) were available, it
might be a tie.

I also love the Vlach Dvorak op. 106 and thought it was unsurpassable
until I heard the Pavel Haas SQ both live and in the studio. They give
the Vlach a run for their money for the first time on record, imo.

As for the Janacek Quartets, there are just too many great recordings for
me to single one out as "unsurpassable," but I might apply the adjective
to Suk's mono recording with Panenka of the composer's Violin Sonata.

Some more random "unsurpassables" imo:

--Leonard Rose's Schelomo
--Robert Merrill in Bloch's "Sacred Service" cond. by Bernstein (too bad
about the flabby choruses)
--Poulenc and Fevrier in Poulenc's 2-Piano Concerto
--Danczowska/Zimerman in Szymanowski's Mythes
--Juilliard/RCA Berg and Webern
--Kogan/Gilels Beethoven live in Leningrad, 1964
--Michael Rabin, Wieniawski VC #1

AC
John Wiser
2012-09-20 11:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never
got bettered. I mean that you try ?> to listen to others but it makes you
itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
[...]
Post by Precious Roy
What are some of yours?
Mozart: Quartet D minor K. 421 Flonzaley
Beethoven Op. 31 Sonatas Kempff I
Beethoven: Quartet in F op 59/1 Busch
Schubert Sonata in A, D. 959 Schnabel
Schubert: Symphony No. 9 NYPSO/Walter
Prokofiev: Violin Concerto #1 Szigeti/LPO.Beecham
Prokofiev F minor Sonata Szigeti/Levine
Bartok Quartets 3 & 4 Juilliard I
Martin Petite Symphonie concertante Ansermet
Vaughan Williams Tallis Fantasia Boult
(Nixa recording via Westminster)

JDW
Dave Cook
2012-09-20 15:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Wiser
Martin Petite Symphonie concertante Ansermet
I assume you mean the Decca recording, but there was also a recording
on a Cascavelle CD.

Dave Cook
John Wiser
2012-09-20 15:44:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Cook
Post by John Wiser
Martin Petite Symphonie concertante Ansermet
I assume you mean the Decca recording, but there was also a recording
on a Cascavelle CD.
I'm aware, Dave. Better sound on the Cascavelle broadcast recording,
neck and neck as to interpretation & playing. Mulled it before posting
and decided a little bit of ambiguity gives the porridge some savor. Either
one easily bests all non-Ansermet recordings IMO.

JDW
Dave Cook
2012-09-20 18:02:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Wiser
I'm aware, Dave. Better sound on the Cascavelle broadcast recording,
neck and neck as to interpretation & playing. Mulled it before posting
and decided a little bit of ambiguity gives the porridge some savor. Either
one easily bests all non-Ansermet recordings IMO.
Supposedly Cascavelle issued an 8-CD Martin set (VEL 3027), but I can't find it
anywhere.

http://www.classical-music.com/review/cascavelle-honegger-and-martin-commemorative-box-sets

Dave Cook
JohnGavin
2012-09-20 18:27:03 UTC
Permalink
There's no recording that captures every angle of the essence of a piece, but there are some that hit so many high points that they stand alone.

IMO Michelangeli has hit so many high points in his comparably small repertoire that I would list these as the superlative recording of these works.

Brahms - Paganini Variations (1948)
Brahms - Ballades op. 10
Bach-Busoni - Chaconne
Ravel - Piano Concerto in G
Rachmaninoff - PC #4
Grieg - Piano Concerto (with Burgos)
Debussy - Images
Schumann - Carnaval
Lena
2012-09-20 18:29:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
There's no recording that captures every angle of the essence of a piece, but there are some that hit so many high points that they stand alone.
IMO Michelangeli has hit so many high points in his comparably small repertoire that I would list these as the superlative recording of these works.
Brahms - Paganini Variations (1948)
Brahms - Ballades op. 10
Bach-Busoni - Chaconne
Ravel - Piano Concerto in G
Rachmaninoff - PC #4
Grieg - Piano Concerto (with Burgos)
Debussy - Images
Schumann - Carnaval
Oh damn, I forgot Michelangeli. :) Something by him is certainly on
my list, too...

Lena
HvT
2012-09-20 18:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lena
Post by JohnGavin
There's no recording that captures every angle of the essence of a
piece, but there are some that hit so many high points that they
stand alone.
IMO Michelangeli has hit so many high points in his comparably small
repertoire that I would list these as the superlative recording of
these works.
Brahms - Paganini Variations (1948)
Brahms - Ballades op. 10
Bach-Busoni - Chaconne
Ravel - Piano Concerto in G
Rachmaninoff - PC #4
Grieg - Piano Concerto (with Burgos)
Debussy - Images
Schumann - Carnaval
Oh damn, I forgot Michelangeli. :) Something by him is certainly on
my list, too...
<g> I second the Rachmaninov.

Henk
Lena
2012-09-20 19:00:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by HvT
Post by JohnGavin
There's no recording that captures every angle of the essence of a
piece, but there are some that hit so many high points that they
stand alone.
IMO Michelangeli has hit so many high points in his comparably small
repertoire that I would list these as the superlative recording of
these works.
Brahms - Paganini Variations (1948)
Brahms - Ballades op. 10
Bach-Busoni - Chaconne
Ravel - Piano Concerto in G
Rachmaninoff - PC #4
Grieg - Piano Concerto (with Burgos)
Debussy - Images
Schumann - Carnaval
Oh damn, I forgot Michelangeli. :)   Something by him is certainly on
my list, too...
<g> I second the Rachmaninov.
Henk
I second Rachmaninoff in anything... :)

Lena
Kip Williams
2012-09-21 02:13:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lena
Post by HvT
<g> I second the Rachmaninov.
I second Rachmaninoff in anything... :)
For starters, Rachmaninoff in the Carnaval, the "Funeral March" sonata,
and the Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini.


Kip W
D***@aol.com
2012-09-22 19:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
Post by Lena
Post by HvT
<g> I second the Rachmaninov.
I second Rachmaninoff in anything... :)
For starters, Rachmaninoff in the Carnaval, the "Funeral March" sonata,
and the Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini.
Kip W
Those for sure. Plus him conducting his Third Symphony. But I second
"anything."

Don Tait
Kip Williams
2012-09-23 02:57:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Kip Williams
Post by Lena
Post by HvT
<g> I second the Rachmaninov.
I second Rachmaninoff in anything... :)
For starters, Rachmaninoff in the Carnaval, the "Funeral March" sonata,
and the Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini.
Those for sure. Plus him conducting his Third Symphony. But I second
"anything."
When I listen to his recordings, I almost always have this feeling that
I'm hearing a definitive interpretation. Granted, I may also feel it
hearing someone else play the same piece, but I'm near certain to feel
it hearing Rachmaninoff play.


Kip W

Sol L. Siegel
2012-09-21 03:30:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Wiser
Vaughan Williams Tallis Fantasia Boult
(Nixa recording via Westminster)
Barbirolli/EMI

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
The Historian
2012-09-22 23:14:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sol L. Siegel
Post by John Wiser
Vaughan Williams Tallis Fantasia Boult
 (Nixa recording via Westminster)
Barbirolli/EMI
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
Gould/RCA
hiker_rs
2012-09-20 11:18:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
Bruckner 9 Karajan BPO 1960s commercial recording
r***@gmail.com
2012-09-20 12:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
Rimsky Korakov - Sheherazade - Reiner/CSO
Franck - Symphony in D minor - Monteux/CSO
Janacek - Glagolitic Mass - Ancerl
Liszt - Eine Faust Symphony - Beecham
Sibelius - Symphony No.2 - Barbiroli/RPO/Chesky
Dvorak - Symphony No. 8 - Silvestri/LPO
Schubert - Symphony No. 9 - Krips/LSO
Ed Presson
2012-09-20 16:05:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never
got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you
itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't
read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation".
I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones
that establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
Janacek - Glagolitic Mass - Ancerl
Schubert - Symphony No. 9 - Krips/LSO
...and to these two I'd add

Ravel - Daphnis & Chloe - Munch/BSO (the second stereo recording, about
1960, I think)

Ed Presson
Dufus
2012-09-20 12:41:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What are some of yours?
Chopin Ballades, Rubinstein's 60's
Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto, Gilels / Reiner 1958
Beethoven Piano Concerto No.4 , Schnabel / Dobrowen 1946
Rachmaninoff Piano Sonata No.1, Ogdon
Saint-Saens Piano Concerto No.4, Cortot/Munch
Barber Piano Sonata , Horowitz
Liszt Piano Sonata, Pogorelich 1991

Dufus
HvT
2012-09-20 18:50:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dufus
Post by Precious Roy
What are some of yours?
Chopin Ballades, Rubinstein's 60's
Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto, Gilels / Reiner 1958
Beethoven Piano Concerto No.4 , Schnabel / Dobrowen 1946
Rachmaninoff Piano Sonata No.1, Ogdon
Saint-Saens Piano Concerto No.4, Cortot/Munch
Barber Piano Sonata , Horowitz
Liszt Piano Sonata, Pogorelich 1991
Dufus
How could I have forgotten Horowitz's Barber and Kabalevsky?

Henk
Al Eisner
2012-09-21 23:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dufus
Post by Precious Roy
What are some of yours?
Chopin Ballades, Rubinstein's 60's
Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto, Gilels / Reiner 1958
Beethoven Piano Concerto No.4 , Schnabel / Dobrowen 1946
Rachmaninoff Piano Sonata No.1, Ogdon
Saint-Saens Piano Concerto No.4, Cortot/Munch
Barber Piano Sonata , Horowitz
Liszt Piano Sonata, Pogorelich 1991
Schubert Impropmptus -- Lupu (the first CD I ever bought)
Schubert Symphony #9 -- Toscanini/Philadelphia
Schumann Fantasie in C -- Freire

and now that I'm reminded of it from Dufus's list, I'd probably add
at least the Chopin Ballade #3 from the Rubinstein set.
--
Al Eisner
Kip Williams
2012-09-20 13:08:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What are some of yours?
Casadesus's 1960 Ravel Left Hand
also his Franck Symphonic Variations


Kip W
Terry
2012-09-20 13:36:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got
bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to
put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't read
stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation". I'm not
talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones that establish
an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
Dickie, Fischer-Dieskau and Kletzki in Das Lied von der Erde. Perfect!
--
Cheers!

Terry
zamansky12
2012-09-20 15:02:10 UTC
Permalink
Heifetz: Vieuxtemps 4th VC with Barbirolli.
The same team in Saint-Saens Intro. and Rondo Capriccioso, and Havanaise.
and Sarasate Zigunerweisen.


"Precious Roy" wrote in message news:117e01c6-be06-42c0-9a81-***@googlegroups.com...

What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never
got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch
to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.

I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't
read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation". I'm
not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones that
establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.

I can tell you some of mine; and I'm aware that they are not discoveries of
my own:

Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov

What are some of yours?
Dana John Hill
2012-09-20 15:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never
got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you
itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't
read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation".
I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones
that establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
Elgar: Sea Pictures - Baker/Barbirolli/LSO

Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida
Bob Harper
2012-09-20 16:28:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
A faxcinating question, and the answers have included may of my
particuar favorites. I'd add:
Brahms 4, Furtwangler (1948)
Beethoven Op. 59/2, Busch (Biddulph)
Dvorak 6, Ancerl
Tchaikovsky 5, Mravinsky (stereo DG)
Sibelius 7, Mravinsky

Bob Harper
Mark S
2012-09-20 16:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
None.

The concept you're putting forward is quite foreign to my way of listening to and thinking about music and performances. Proposing an "un-bettered" recording leads instantly to an "on the other hand" thought.

Even if a recording can be considered "the best" in a general sense, it will most certainly fall short of some other recording when considering the specifics.

You'd think that your exercise would lend itself to people who knew only a handful of recordings, and who had a limited universe from which to selected their "unbetter-able" list, but from the responses, plenty of seasoned collectors have no problem coming up with such lists.

Go figure.
Bob Harper
2012-09-20 16:57:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark S
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
None.
The concept you're putting forward is quite foreign to my way of listening to and thinking about music and performances. Proposing an "un-bettered" recording leads instantly to an "on the other hand" thought.
Even if a recording can be considered "the best" in a general sense, it will most certainly fall short of some other recording when considering the specifics.
You'd think that your exercise would lend itself to people who knew only a handful of recordings, and who had a limited universe from which to selected their "unbetter-able" list, but from the responses, plenty of seasoned collectors have no problem coming up with such lists.
Go figure.
Note that the OP adds 'for you', which makes all the difference. In
the case of my candidates, I can see that someone bothered by trombone
vibrato might find Mravinsky's Sibelius intolerable. that doesn't keep
it from being, *for me*, unsurpassed. Frankly, your response strikes
me as being a bit cranky.

Bob Harper
Mark S
2012-09-20 17:04:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Note that the OP adds 'for you', which makes all the difference. In
the case of my candidates, I can see that someone bothered by trombone
vibrato might find Mravinsky's Sibelius intolerable. that doesn't keep
it from being, *for me*, unsurpassed. Frankly, your response strikes
me as being a bit cranky.
Bob Harper
If you really believed in the concept of "for you," you wouldn't find it necessary to characterize MY version "for you" as being "a bit cranky."
Gerard
2012-09-20 17:08:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Mark S
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you,
just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others
but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous
and revered standard.
None.
The concept you're putting forward is quite foreign to my way of
listening to and thinking about music and performances. Proposing
an "un-bettered" recording leads instantly to an "on the other
hand" thought.
Even if a recording can be considered "the best" in a general
sense, it will most certainly fall short of some other recording
when considering the specifics.
You'd think that your exercise would lend itself to people who knew
only a handful of recordings, and who had a limited universe from
which to selected their "unbetter-able" list, but from the
responses, plenty of seasoned collectors have no problem coming up
with such lists.
Go figure.
Note that the OP adds 'for you', which makes all the difference. In
the case of my candidates, I can see that someone bothered by trombone
vibrato might find Mravinsky's Sibelius intolerable. that doesn't keep
it from being, *for me*, unsurpassed. Frankly, your response strikes
me as being a bit cranky.
Bob Harper
Mark's response was very much to the point.
Requests like this can lead to endless threads with lists that say nothing.
O
2012-09-20 17:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Requests like this can lead to endless threads with lists that say nothing.
Heaven forbid that would ever happen in this group!

-Owen, saying "nothing."
Kip Williams
2012-09-21 02:15:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by O
Post by Gerard
Requests like this can lead to endless threads with lists that say nothing.
Heaven forbid that would ever happen in this group!
-Owen, saying "nothing."
Now I'm reminded of NORTH BY NORTHWEST. "What does the O stand for?"
"Nothing."


Kip W
O
2012-09-21 11:27:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
Post by O
Post by Gerard
Requests like this can lead to endless threads with lists that say nothing.
Heaven forbid that would ever happen in this group!
-Owen, saying "nothing."
Now I'm reminded of NORTH BY NORTHWEST. "What does the O stand for?"
"Nothing."
I can see why some might mistake me for Cary Grant.

-Owen
John Wiser
2012-09-21 13:36:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by O
Post by Kip Williams
Post by O
Post by Gerard
Requests like this can lead to endless threads with lists that say nothing.
Heaven forbid that would ever happen in this group!
-Owen, saying "nothing."
Now I'm reminded of NORTH BY NORTHWEST. "What does the O stand for?"
"Nothing."
I can see why some might mistake me for Cary Grant.
Only when your back is turned.

jdw (making stabbing motions)
O
2012-09-21 14:00:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Wiser
Post by O
Post by Kip Williams
Post by O
Post by Gerard
Requests like this can lead to endless threads with lists that say nothing.
Heaven forbid that would ever happen in this group!
-Owen, saying "nothing."
Now I'm reminded of NORTH BY NORTHWEST. "What does the O stand for?"
"Nothing."
I can see why some might mistake me for Cary Grant.
Only when your back is turned.
And my backside is my good side.
Post by John Wiser
jdw (making stabbing motions)
You can do better than that, John...

It's because I'm "old, gray, and dead."

Although, if I ever need someone to stab me in the back, you know I'll
call on you.

-Owen, Audrey Hepburn is starting to look real good to me right now.
Kip Williams
2012-09-21 13:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by O
Post by Kip Williams
Post by O
Post by Gerard
Requests like this can lead to endless threads with lists that say nothing.
Heaven forbid that would ever happen in this group!
-Owen, saying "nothing."
Now I'm reminded of NORTH BY NORTHWEST. "What does the O stand for?"
"Nothing."
I can see why some might mistake me for Cary Grant.
I'm more the George Kaplan type.


Kip W
jrsnfld
2012-09-20 17:28:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Mark S
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
None.
The concept you're putting forward is quite foreign to my way of listening to and thinking about music and performances. Proposing an "un-bettered" recording leads instantly to an "on the other hand" thought.
Even if a recording can be considered "the best" in a general sense, it will most certainly fall short of some other recording when considering the specifics.
You'd think that your exercise would lend itself to people who knew only a handful of recordings, and who had a limited universe from which to selected their "unbetter-able" list, but from the responses, plenty of seasoned collectors have no problem coming up with such lists.
Go figure.
Note that the OP adds 'for you', which makes all the difference. In
the case of my candidates, I can see that someone bothered by trombone
vibrato might find Mravinsky's Sibelius intolerable. that doesn't keep
it from being, *for me*, unsurpassed. Frankly, your response strikes
me as being a bit cranky.
That vibrato is part of the charm. Frankly, Mravinsky's Sibelius 7 was
exactly one of those key recordings that matured me as a listener,
awakening me to the fact that you can be swept away even if you don't
love everything about a performance. Appreciating a performance is up
to the listener, not the performer.

(BTW...don't forget that Mravinsky recorded more Sibelius than just
that one infamous example.)

--Jeff
Bob Harper
2012-09-20 20:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by jrsnfld
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Mark S
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
None.
The concept you're putting forward is quite foreign to my way of listening to and thinking about music and performances. Proposing an "un-bettered" recording leads instantly to an "on the other hand" thought.
Even if a recording can be considered "the best" in a general sense, it will most certainly fall short of some other recording when considering the specifics.
You'd think that your exercise would lend itself to people who knew only a handful of recordings, and who had a limited universe from which to selected their "unbetter-able" list, but from the responses, plenty of seasoned collectors have no problem coming up with such lists.
Go figure.
Note that the OP adds 'for you', which makes all the difference. In
the case of my candidates, I can see that someone bothered by trombone
vibrato might find Mravinsky's Sibelius intolerable. that doesn't keep
it from being, *for me*, unsurpassed. Frankly, your response strikes
me as being a bit cranky.
That vibrato is part of the charm. Frankly, Mravinsky's Sibelius 7 was
exactly one of those key recordings that matured me as a listener,
awakening me to the fact that you can be swept away even if you don't
love everything about a performance. Appreciating a performance is up
to the listener, not the performer.
(BTW...don't forget that Mravinsky recorded more Sibelius than just
that one infamous example.)
--Jeff- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Yeah, The Swan of Tuonela which, IIRC, was on the EMI LP I had with
the 7th and Stravinsky's Apollo, and the 3rd Symphony, which I've
never heard, but would like to. Anything else?

Bob Harper
jrsnfld
2012-09-20 17:16:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark S
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
None.
The concept you're putting forward is quite foreign to my way of listening to and thinking about music and performances. Proposing an "un-bettered" recording leads instantly to an "on the other hand" thought.
Even if a recording can be considered "the best" in a general sense, it will most certainly fall short of some other recording when considering the specifics.
You'd think that your exercise would lend itself to people who knew only a handful of recordings, and who had a limited universe from which to selected their "unbetter-able" list, but from the responses, plenty of seasoned collectors have no problem coming up with such lists.
Go figure.
I was considering drafting a response similar to yours, but if you
read the original post of the thread carefully, I think you'll find
that Precious Roy has humbly anticipated all of your objections. He's
not talking about "perfect" recordings; he's talking about recordings
that have "never been bettered." Who says that a recording can't have
a few flaws, yet is still the one you still yearn to hear when you're
listening to others because nobody else does it better in aggregate or
(more likely) in a key detail or two that you cherish above all?

"Never been bettered" makes plenty of room for such ambiguities. If I
say no one has ever bettered Sofronitzky's Scriabin sonatas, or Alex
Klein's Vivaldi concerti, or Sejna's Dvorak Slavonic Dances, or
Furtwangler's 1930 Mendelssohn Hebrides, that doesn't mean they're
perfect or that I don't enjoy other recordings. I freely admit that I
yearn for these recordings when listening to alternatives: the impulse
is there, as deeply buried as I can manage. They are my sacred cows,
and anyone who can't hear their overwhelming greatness...well, those
people can't hear! :-)

Every one of the posts so far--even the posts that nominate just one
recording--has mentioned a disc that has been at one time or another
my "go-to", "never been bettered" standard that makes all others seem
inadequate. I basically don't feel that way about any of those
anymore, so clearly it is possible to dethrone the gods. But there are
still other recordings that ascend to such status and undeniably live
in my mind when I audition alternatives. I have often written here
about the need to clear one's mind of such prejudices before listening
to a new performance, but no listener is infallible in this regard, no
matter how "foreign" such thinking *ought* to be.

--Jeff
Lena
2012-09-20 18:22:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by jrsnfld
Post by Mark S
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
None.
The concept you're putting forward is quite foreign to my way of listening to and thinking about music and performances. Proposing an "un-bettered" recording leads instantly to an "on the other hand" thought.
Even if a recording can be considered "the best" in a general sense, it will most certainly fall short of some other recording when considering the specifics.
You'd think that your exercise would lend itself to people who knew only a handful of recordings, and who had a limited universe from which to selected their "unbetter-able" list, but from the responses, plenty of seasoned collectors have no problem coming up with such lists.
Go figure.
I was considering drafting a response similar to yours, but if you
read the original post of the thread carefully, I think you'll find
that Precious Roy has humbly anticipated all of your objections. He's
not talking about "perfect" recordings; he's talking about recordings
that have "never been bettered." Who says that a recording can't have
a few flaws, yet is still the one you still yearn to hear when you're
listening to others because nobody else does it better in aggregate or
(more likely) in a key detail or two that you cherish above all?
Or just that it's an overwhelming favorite, for whatever reasons,
maybe irrational ones. It's the recording that you love because of
some general quality that gets to you (and that other recordings,
however wonderful, don't have). (And I assume that, despite answering
this, I'm still allowed to enjoy other versions as well, or I have to
take it all back. :) )

Lena
Post by jrsnfld
"Never been bettered" makes plenty of room for such ambiguities. If I
say no one has ever bettered Sofronitzky's Scriabin sonatas, or Alex
Klein's Vivaldi concerti, or Sejna's Dvorak Slavonic Dances, or
Furtwangler's 1930 Mendelssohn Hebrides, that doesn't mean they're
perfect or that I don't enjoy other recordings. I freely admit that I
yearn for these recordings when listening to alternatives: the impulse
is there, as deeply buried as I can manage. They are my sacred cows,
and anyone who can't hear their overwhelming greatness...well, those
people can't hear! :-)
Every one of the posts so far--even the posts that nominate just one
recording--has mentioned a disc that has been at one time or another
my "go-to", "never been bettered" standard that makes all others seem
inadequate. I basically don't feel that way about any of those
anymore, so clearly it is possible to dethrone the gods. But there are
still other recordings that ascend to such status and undeniably live
in my mind when I audition alternatives. I have often written here
about the need to clear one's mind of such prejudices before listening
to a new performance, but no listener is infallible in this regard, no
matter how "foreign" such thinking *ought* to be.
--Jeff
jrsnfld
2012-09-20 18:48:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by jrsnfld
Who says that a recording can't have
Post by jrsnfld
a few flaws, yet is still the one you still yearn to hear when you're
listening to others because nobody else does it better in aggregate or
(more likely) in a key detail or two that you cherish above all?
Or just that it's an overwhelming favorite, for whatever reasons,
maybe irrational ones. It's the recording that you love because of
some general quality that gets to you (and that other recordings,
however wonderful, don't have). ...
I'm not so sure I buy that "some general quality" line of reasoning.
Even if your affection for a recording is irrational (or highly
subjective), would you put it in your pantheon simply because of
"general quality"? If a recording is one of my sacred cows, I almost
always have very specific ideas about what makes it so great.

--Jeff
Lena
2012-09-20 19:47:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by jrsnfld
Post by jrsnfld
Who says that a recording can't have
Post by jrsnfld
a few flaws, yet is still the one you still yearn to hear when you're
listening to others because nobody else does it better in aggregate or
(more likely) in a key detail or two that you cherish above all?
Or just that it's an overwhelming favorite, for whatever reasons,
maybe irrational ones. It's the recording that you love because of
some general quality that gets to you (and that other recordings,
however wonderful, don't have). ...
I'm not so sure I buy that "some general quality" line of reasoning.
Oh.... this is getting way too serious for this topic... :)
Post by jrsnfld
Even if your affection for a recording is irrational (or highly
subjective), would you put it in your pantheon simply because of
"general quality"?
No, of course not -- sorry if I wasn't clear. The sentence "it's the
recording you love because of some general quality" talks about a
necessary condition for pantheon inclusion. :) It doesn't say
anything about other necessary conditions, or about sufficient
conditions, or irrelevant conditions... :)

This subject really doesn't seem worth getting scholastic about, but
just to avoid misunderstandings : I may like a recording because it's
good at certain things (specifics can be supplied to any atrocious
specificity you wish). But that doesn't put it in the pantheon. My
pantheon recordings have something extra that transcends how they deal
with scores. I (or anyone) can handwave about what it is, but, for
me, it's usually a general quality that's not easily described just
purely verbally.

In the case of Rachmaninoff, the pianist, the general quality seems to
be an outstanding proficiency with patterns. (So I guess that could
be put down to specifics, but even here, it's really the massive
number of good specifics that makes him pantheon-material.) For
Bruggen's Haydn it's a type of energy that no one else quite has.
(That's in addition to Bruggen being bleeping good at getting out
combinatorial counterpoint -- and also good enough at a number of
other 'specifics' that matter to me.)

(Now, if you really want to get picky about this: performance
subtleties like being energetic aren't out of reach of a certain kind
of description, but then it gets far more quantitatively technical;
and what results is not in the least helpful to most people...)

I just took all this to be an informal thread about one's private
'top' versions, where they exist... But now it seems I must find
Simon. :)

Lena
mandryka
2012-09-20 20:09:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by jrsnfld
Post by jrsnfld
Who says that a recording can't have
Post by jrsnfld
a few flaws, yet is still the one you still yearn to hear when you're
listening to others because nobody else does it better in aggregate or
(more likely) in a key detail or two that you cherish above all?
Or just that it's an overwhelming favorite, for whatever reasons,
maybe irrational ones. It's the recording that you love because of
some general quality that gets to you (and that other recordings,
however wonderful, don't have). ...
I'm not so sure I buy that "some general quality" line of reasoning.
Oh....  this is getting way too serious for this topic...  :)
Post by jrsnfld
Even if your affection for a recording is irrational (or highly
subjective), would you put it in your pantheon simply because of
"general quality"?
No, of course not -- sorry if I wasn't clear.  The sentence "it's the
recording you love because of some general quality" talks about a
necessary condition for pantheon inclusion.  :)  It doesn't say
anything about other necessary conditions, or about sufficient
conditions, or irrelevant conditions... :)
This subject really doesn't seem worth getting scholastic about, but
just to avoid misunderstandings : I may like a recording because it's
good at certain things (specifics can be supplied to any atrocious
specificity you wish).  But that doesn't put it in the pantheon.  My
pantheon recordings have something extra that transcends how they deal
with scores.  I (or anyone) can handwave about what it is, but, for
me, it's usually a general quality that's not easily described just
purely verbally.
In the case of Rachmaninoff, the pianist, the general quality seems to
be an outstanding proficiency with patterns.  (So I guess that could
be put down to specifics, but even here, it's really the massive
number of good specifics that makes him pantheon-material.)  For
Bruggen's Haydn it's a type of energy that no one else quite has.
(That's in addition to Bruggen being bleeping good at getting out
combinatorial counterpoint -- and also good enough at a number of
other 'specifics' that matter to me.)
(Now, if you really want to get picky about this: performance
subtleties like being energetic aren't out of reach of a certain kind
of description, but then it gets far more quantitatively technical;
and what results is not in the least helpful to most people...)
 I just took all this to be an informal thread about one's private
'top' versions, where they exist...  But now it seems I must find
Simon.  :)
Lena
Would you put a recording in the pantheon that you didn't much like,
but which was so provocative, original and interesting that you can't
help but think about it whenever you hear someone else play the
music?

For me an example would be Pollini playing Beethoven Op 2 and Op 10
(Beethoven)
Lena
2012-09-20 20:12:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by mandryka
Post by jrsnfld
Post by jrsnfld
Who says that a recording can't have
Post by jrsnfld
a few flaws, yet is still the one you still yearn to hear when you're
listening to others because nobody else does it better in aggregate or
(more likely) in a key detail or two that you cherish above all?
Or just that it's an overwhelming favorite, for whatever reasons,
maybe irrational ones. It's the recording that you love because of
some general quality that gets to you (and that other recordings,
however wonderful, don't have). ...
I'm not so sure I buy that "some general quality" line of reasoning.
Oh....  this is getting way too serious for this topic...  :)
Post by jrsnfld
Even if your affection for a recording is irrational (or highly
subjective), would you put it in your pantheon simply because of
"general quality"?
No, of course not -- sorry if I wasn't clear.  The sentence "it's the
recording you love because of some general quality" talks about a
necessary condition for pantheon inclusion.  :)  It doesn't say
anything about other necessary conditions, or about sufficient
conditions, or irrelevant conditions... :)
This subject really doesn't seem worth getting scholastic about, but
just to avoid misunderstandings : I may like a recording because it's
good at certain things (specifics can be supplied to any atrocious
specificity you wish).  But that doesn't put it in the pantheon.  My
pantheon recordings have something extra that transcends how they deal
with scores.  I (or anyone) can handwave about what it is, but, for
me, it's usually a general quality that's not easily described just
purely verbally.
In the case of Rachmaninoff, the pianist, the general quality seems to
be an outstanding proficiency with patterns.  (So I guess that could
be put down to specifics, but even here, it's really the massive
number of good specifics that makes him pantheon-material.)  For
Bruggen's Haydn it's a type of energy that no one else quite has.
(That's in addition to Bruggen being bleeping good at getting out
combinatorial counterpoint -- and also good enough at a number of
other 'specifics' that matter to me.)
(Now, if you really want to get picky about this: performance
subtleties like being energetic aren't out of reach of a certain kind
of description, but then it gets far more quantitatively technical;
and what results is not in the least helpful to most people...)
 I just took all this to be an informal thread about one's private
'top' versions, where they exist...  But now it seems I must find
Simon.  :)
Lena
Would you put a recording in the pantheon that you didn't much like,
but which was so provocative, original and interesting that you can't
help but think about it whenever you hear someone else play the
music?
That's interesting -- I have no idea! :) I never thought about it
that way.
Post by mandryka
For me an example would be Pollini playing Beethoven Op 2 and Op 10
(Beethoven)
I must hear this (again), then.

Lena
mandryka
2012-09-20 20:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by mandryka
Post by jrsnfld
Post by jrsnfld
Who says that a recording can't have
Post by jrsnfld
a few flaws, yet is still the one you still yearn to hear when you're
listening to others because nobody else does it better in aggregate or
(more likely) in a key detail or two that you cherish above all?
Or just that it's an overwhelming favorite, for whatever reasons,
maybe irrational ones. It's the recording that you love because of
some general quality that gets to you (and that other recordings,
however wonderful, don't have). ...
I'm not so sure I buy that "some general quality" line of reasoning.
Oh....  this is getting way too serious for this topic...  :)
Post by jrsnfld
Even if your affection for a recording is irrational (or highly
subjective), would you put it in your pantheon simply because of
"general quality"?
No, of course not -- sorry if I wasn't clear.  The sentence "it's the
recording you love because of some general quality" talks about a
necessary condition for pantheon inclusion.  :)  It doesn't say
anything about other necessary conditions, or about sufficient
conditions, or irrelevant conditions... :)
This subject really doesn't seem worth getting scholastic about, but
just to avoid misunderstandings : I may like a recording because it's
good at certain things (specifics can be supplied to any atrocious
specificity you wish).  But that doesn't put it in the pantheon.  My
pantheon recordings have something extra that transcends how they deal
with scores.  I (or anyone) can handwave about what it is, but, for
me, it's usually a general quality that's not easily described just
purely verbally.
In the case of Rachmaninoff, the pianist, the general quality seems to
be an outstanding proficiency with patterns.  (So I guess that could
be put down to specifics, but even here, it's really the massive
number of good specifics that makes him pantheon-material.)  For
Bruggen's Haydn it's a type of energy that no one else quite has.
(That's in addition to Bruggen being bleeping good at getting out
combinatorial counterpoint -- and also good enough at a number of
other 'specifics' that matter to me.)
(Now, if you really want to get picky about this: performance
subtleties like being energetic aren't out of reach of a certain kind
of description, but then it gets far more quantitatively technical;
and what results is not in the least helpful to most people...)
 I just took all this to be an informal thread about one's private
'top' versions, where they exist...  But now it seems I must find
Simon.  :)
Lena
Would you put a recording in the pantheon that you didn't much like,
but which was so provocative, original and interesting that you can't
help but think about it whenever you hear someone else play the
music?
That's interesting -- I have no idea!  :)    I never thought about it
that way.
Post by mandryka
For me an example would be Pollini playing Beethoven Op 2 and Op 10
(Beethoven)
I must hear this (again), then.
Lena
I might change my mind tomorrow. It's just that I've become a bit
fascinated by Pollini's early Beethoven recently.
O
2012-09-20 20:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Can you really say that, for example, Carlos Kleiber's Beethoven 5 is
unsurpassable? In some ways you can, but in other ways no. It's harder
for me to pick more serious pieces, because with length comes more ways
that an alternative version works better in different parts, what
stands out are more the bleeding chunk encores and short works:

Toscanini: William Tell Overture - what a ride! There's probably a lot
of Toscanini that would fit this bill, but I might change my mind on
some of them. This one I can't imagine anyone doing it better.

William Albright's Scott Joplin - hard to imagine these being done any
better.

Van Cliburn - Tchaikovsky Piano Cto 1, "Widmung" from the Bell
Telephone Hour. I debated which of the two I would find more
unsurpassable, and decided he was easily worth two. I don't like the
concerto, but I like hearing him play it. That warm tone fits Widmung
like a glove, and nobody will ever do it better.

Leonard Rose, Bidu Sayao - Bachiana Brasileira No. 5. Just for the
part where Rose and Sayao blend the tremelo perfectly together.

MTT - Le Sacre Du Printemps - Kicks ass.

Di Quello Pira - Mario Del Monaco - a voice like a trumpet, and perfect
for this aria.

Julie London - song "Blues in the Night" not only the sexiest version,
but the best version. Wherever the four winds "blow."

Horowitz - Chopin Opus 44. From his Carnegie Hall recital.
Unbelievable, incredible playing.

Karajan - Shostokovich Symphony #10. The second movement is terror
incarnate.

Helene Grimaud - Rachmaninov: Etude-Tableau #1. Something about the
bell like sounds she makes at the end makes this a perfect performance.

Might think of a couple more later.

-Owen
Dufus
2012-09-20 21:19:55 UTC
Permalink
Horowitz - Chopin Opus 44.  From his Carnegie Hall recital.
Unbelievable, incredible playing.
Agreed.
HvT
2012-09-20 21:45:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dufus
Horowitz - Chopin Opus 44. From his Carnegie Hall recital.
Unbelievable, incredible playing.
Agreed.
Thirded! Not to forget his Faure and Debussy etudes.

Henk
operafan
2012-09-21 14:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Boult's stereo version of V-W Serenade to Music
Hickox's first recording of V-W Sea Symphony
Mahler 4 with Szell
Mahler 9 with Haitink/RCO from the Kerstmatinees box set
Beethoven 6 with Toscanini/NBC
Gould's mono studio set of the Goldbergs
Bach b minor mass--Jochum on EMI
Debussy Images--Boulez/Cleveland on Sony
Liszt Sonata--Nojima
Wagner--Das Rheingold--Solti
Strauss--Also Sprach--Reiner 1954
Copland's 3rd symphony--either Slatkin/St. Louis or Oue/Minnesota
Copland--Appalachian Spring chamber version--MTT
Ives 4th symphony--Dohnanyi/Cleveland
JohnGavin
2012-09-20 22:18:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dufus
Horowitz - Chopin Opus 44.  From his Carnegie Hall recital.
Unbelievable, incredible playing.
Agreed.
Me too. Also the Kavalevsky Sonata and the Carnegie Hall L'Isle Joyeuse.
JohnGavin
2012-09-20 22:20:42 UTC
Permalink
This will ruffle some feathers, but I give both Goyescas and Iberia to Alicia DeLarrocha, particularly the Hispavox recordings.
HvT
2012-09-21 09:46:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
This will ruffle some feathers, but I give both Goyescas and Iberia
to Alicia DeLarrocha, particularly the Hispavox recordings.
I prefer AdL's Goyescas released in the Liszt Legacy set.

Although all her recordings of Spanish music are on my top 5 list of these
pieces I'm not quite convinced that she is unsurpassable. Perez's version
sheds a new light on the Goyescas and if for example Bavouzet ever decides
to record Iberia his version will be at least as interesting as AdL's.

However, the quality of all AdL's Goyescas and Iberias never fails to
surprise me. There isn't a weaker one among them in spite of the fact that
each interpretation is clearly different from the one before.

Henk
Dufus
2012-09-20 23:36:39 UTC
Permalink
 ... and the Carnegie Hall L'Isle Joyeuse.
Also agreed.
Steve Emerson
2012-09-21 03:08:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by O
Julie London - song "Blues in the Night" not only the sexiest version,
but the best version. Wherever the four winds "blow."
Ah, a Julie London man. I'd go with her "Cry Me a River."
Post by O
Horowitz - Chopin Opus 44. From his Carnegie Hall recital.
Unbelievable, incredible playing.
Bashkirov, even more so (on both counts.) ;)

SE.
HvT
2012-09-21 09:53:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Emerson
Post by O
Julie London - song "Blues in the Night" not only the sexiest
version, but the best version. Wherever the four winds "blow."
Ah, a Julie London man. I'd go with her "Cry Me a River."
Post by O
Horowitz - Chopin Opus 44. From his Carnegie Hall recital.
Unbelievable, incredible playing.
Bashkirov, even more so (on both counts.) ;)
<g> Hmmm. Nevertheless, Bashkirov is for me THE performer of Ravel's piano
concerto for the left hand and I have yet to hear a more interesting version
of the Visions Fugitives.

Henk
Kip Williams
2012-09-21 13:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Emerson
Post by O
Julie London - song "Blues in the Night" not only the sexiest version,
but the best version. Wherever the four winds "blow."
Ah, a Julie London man. I'd go with her "Cry Me a River."
Her rendition of the Mickey Mouse Club March is memorable on a very
basic — nay, elemental — level.



I heard that she did this before Congress when the contention was that a
singer had no stake in a song's copyright because the singer made no
contribution. I think she changed some minds.


Kip W
O
2012-09-21 15:58:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
Post by Steve Emerson
Post by O
Julie London - song "Blues in the Night" not only the sexiest version,
but the best version. Wherever the four winds "blow."
Ah, a Julie London man. I'd go with her "Cry Me a River."
Her rendition of the Mickey Mouse Club March is memorable on a very
basic ‹ nay, elemental ‹ level.
http://youtu.be/lYfSStf_njw
I heard that she did this before Congress when the contention was that a
singer had no stake in a song's copyright because the singer made no
contribution. I think she changed some minds.
That's not how Annette Funicello sang it.

Speaking of the Mickey Mouse Club, anyone remember this?



Those hands opening the chest are so skinny, I remembered them being
skeleton hands. Of course, I never did find out what happened to all
those gold doubloons, and pieces of eight, pieces of eight, pieces of
eight.

-Owen
Kip Williams
2012-09-21 19:10:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by O
Speaking of the Mickey Mouse Club, anyone remember this?
http://youtu.be/phWGcOOEPZY
Those hands opening the chest are so skinny, I remembered them being
skeleton hands. Of course, I never did find out what happened to all
those gold doubloons, and pieces of eight, pieces of eight, pieces of
eight.
Sounds like Thurl Ravenscroft's deep voice there.

We lived in Southern California in the 50s. I was born maybe some 35
miles from Disneyland. They say that my middle sister (born in '52) was
so excited to see Spin & Marty — Tim Consodine and David Stollery — that
she ran past a barrier and toddled up to them, and they thought she was
just so cute.

I'm also told that they took me to Disneyland twice before I was a year
old. I always felt cheated at not remembering it, so I made up my own
memories. Oh boy! Yogi Bear!


Kip W
O
2012-09-21 19:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
Post by O
Speaking of the Mickey Mouse Club, anyone remember this?
http://youtu.be/phWGcOOEPZY
Those hands opening the chest are so skinny, I remembered them being
skeleton hands. Of course, I never did find out what happened to all
those gold doubloons, and pieces of eight, pieces of eight, pieces of
eight.
Sounds like Thurl Ravenscroft's deep voice there.
Sounds like a name out of Gilbert & Sullivan.
Post by Kip Williams
We lived in Southern California in the 50s. I was born maybe some 35
miles from Disneyland. They say that my middle sister (born in '52) was
so excited to see Spin & Marty ‹ Tim Consodine and David Stollery ‹ that
she ran past a barrier and toddled up to them, and they thought she was
just so cute.
Tim Considine was Spin AND a Hardy Boy? Not to mention a My Three Son.
He probably got to kiss Annette behind the curtain, too.
Post by Kip Williams
I'm also told that they took me to Disneyland twice before I was a year
old. I always felt cheated at not remembering it, so I made up my own
memories. Oh boy! Yogi Bear!
I grew up way too far away in Massachusetts for even thinking of going
to Disneyland. We had some decent (but no Disneyland, of course!)
amusement parks though. Unfortunately, they are all gone now.

-Owen
Kip Williams
2012-09-22 05:09:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by O
Post by Kip Williams
Post by O
Speaking of the Mickey Mouse Club, anyone remember this?
http://youtu.be/phWGcOOEPZY
Those hands opening the chest are so skinny, I remembered them being
skeleton hands. Of course, I never did find out what happened to all
those gold doubloons, and pieces of eight, pieces of eight, pieces of
eight.
Sounds like Thurl Ravenscroft's deep voice there.
Sounds like a name out of Gilbert & Sullivan.
Best known as the voice of Tony the Tiger, he also recorded with the
Mellomen and many other venues (in big demand, I'd say). If you have
"Seven Dreams" by Gordon Jenkins, he plays a salesman in the train
sequence (in which Richard "Dickie" Beals plays a kid, though not in a
scene with Ravenscroft).
Post by O
Post by Kip Williams
We lived in Southern California in the 50s. I was born maybe some 35
miles from Disneyland. They say that my middle sister (born in '52) was
so excited to see Spin & Marty ‹ Tim Consodine and David Stollery ‹ that
she ran past a barrier and toddled up to them, and they thought she was
just so cute.
Tim Considine was Spin AND a Hardy Boy? Not to mention a My Three Son.
He probably got to kiss Annette behind the curtain, too.
According to Considine (doesn't look right no matter how I spell it), he
was fired from Disney because of some incident with another boy in a
swimming pool. But who knows? Maybe he'd have kissed Annette too.
Post by O
Post by Kip Williams
I'm also told that they took me to Disneyland twice before I was a year
old. I always felt cheated at not remembering it, so I made up my own
memories. Oh boy! Yogi Bear!
I grew up way too far away in Massachusetts for even thinking of going
to Disneyland. We had some decent (but no Disneyland, of course!)
amusement parks though. Unfortunately, they are all gone now.
Whalom Park? Riverside Park? The latter's a Six Flags in the town next
to where we lived for two-three years. Whalom Park's a longer story — I
was researching Palisades Park and found that the rocket ride had been
sold to an amusement park in Massachusetts, not too far away. I looked
at the layout on Google Maps and started making plans to drive up, then
found out it had closed... that donations were being raised to reopen
it... and then a fire broke out in the old ballroom. Now it's condos.


Kip W
O
2012-09-22 17:23:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
Post by O
Post by Kip Williams
Post by O
Speaking of the Mickey Mouse Club, anyone remember this?
http://youtu.be/phWGcOOEPZY
Those hands opening the chest are so skinny, I remembered them being
skeleton hands. Of course, I never did find out what happened to all
those gold doubloons, and pieces of eight, pieces of eight, pieces of
eight.
Sounds like Thurl Ravenscroft's deep voice there.
Sounds like a name out of Gilbert & Sullivan.
Best known as the voice of Tony the Tiger, he also recorded with the
Mellomen and many other venues (in big demand, I'd say). If you have
"Seven Dreams" by Gordon Jenkins, he plays a salesman in the train
sequence (in which Richard "Dickie" Beals plays a kid, though not in a
scene with Ravenscroft).
Wow! Yes! Tony the Tiger! That's Greeaaaate! You really do know
your stuff, Kip!
Post by Kip Williams
Post by O
Post by Kip Williams
We lived in Southern California in the 50s. I was born maybe some 35
miles from Disneyland. They say that my middle sister (born in '52) was
so excited to see Spin & Marty Ð Tim Consodine and David Stollery Ð that
she ran past a barrier and toddled up to them, and they thought she was
just so cute.
Tim Considine was Spin AND a Hardy Boy? Not to mention a My Three Son.
He probably got to kiss Annette behind the curtain, too.
According to Considine (doesn't look right no matter how I spell it), he
was fired from Disney because of some incident with another boy in a
swimming pool. But who knows? Maybe he'd have kissed Annette too.
Post by O
Post by Kip Williams
I'm also told that they took me to Disneyland twice before I was a year
old. I always felt cheated at not remembering it, so I made up my own
memories. Oh boy! Yogi Bear!
I grew up way too far away in Massachusetts for even thinking of going
to Disneyland. We had some decent (but no Disneyland, of course!)
amusement parks though. Unfortunately, they are all gone now.
Whalom Park? Riverside Park? The latter's a Six Flags in the town next
to where we lived for two-three years. Whalom Park's a longer story ‹ I
was researching Palisades Park and found that the rocket ride had been
sold to an amusement park in Massachusetts, not too far away. I looked
at the layout on Google Maps and started making plans to drive up, then
found out it had closed... that donations were being raised to reopen
it... and then a fire broke out in the old ballroom. Now it's condos.
We lived in Southeastern MA, so the big draw was a park called Lincoln
Park in North Dartmouth, MA. It had a great wooden roller coaster (the
last remnants of it just tore down a month ago) called the Comet, which
was good enough to claim a couple of homicides of people who fell off,
one way or another. It had a Ballroom, roller rink and bowling alley,
and tons of rides. It also had a great fun house (which would violate
every safety rule known to man now), which started with a mirror maze,
went through a room where everything was on a tilt (house that Jack
built), past an air nozzle they used to blow up women's skirts to the
end where you'd sit on a couch, which would suddenly collapse and land
you on a giant conveyor belt which you rode to the exit. It was
tremendous fun, and also had a couple of "mystery rides" where you
travel in a small electric car. My aunt met her husband at Lincoln
Park and everybody went there. It lasted more than some of the other
parks, and many of its rides are now in other parks.

Rhode Island was nearby with a couple of parks of their own, such as
Crescent Park and Rocky Point, but there were more expensive and
weren't as good as Lincoln Park, in terms of size and rides.

There was also another park North of Boston off 128 called Pleasure
Island that had a number of spectacular rides which, when they first
opened, were clearly state of the art for Amusement parks, such as a
boat ride with Moby Dick rising out of the water. That was probably
the cause of their demise, as after several years, a lot of the
mechanical rides were just broken down.. I think Pleasure Island is a
business park now. Lincoln Park was an empty lot for many years (I
think it closed in the late 1980s) with just the wooden tracks of the
Comet rotting away (nobody wanted to buy it - a pity - it was a good
coaster). But now the tracks are gone and condos will be available
soon.

It would be great if there were an amusement park with a working
old-time funhouse. There's a Laurel & Hardy silent short with the pair
going through what looked like a remarkable fun house, which was the
long gone Long Beach Amusement Park in California.

-Owen
M forever
2012-09-21 21:51:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kip Williams
Post by O
Speaking of the Mickey Mouse Club, anyone remember this?
http://youtu.be/phWGcOOEPZY
Those hands opening the chest are so skinny, I remembered them being
skeleton hands.  Of course, I never did find out what happened to all
those gold doubloons, and pieces of eight, pieces of eight, pieces of
eight.
Sounds like Thurl Ravenscroft's deep voice there.
We lived in Southern California in the 50s. I was born maybe some 35
miles from Disneyland. They say that my middle sister (born in '52) was
so excited to see Spin & Marty Tim Consodine and David Stollery that
she ran past a barrier and toddled up to them, and they thought she was
just so cute.
I'm also told that they took me to Disneyland twice before I was a year
old. I always felt cheated at not remembering it, so I made up my own
memories. Oh boy! Yogi Bear!
Kip W
What was Southern California like back then? Was there a lot more open
and undeveloped ground in the areas which are now plastered with
shopping malls and freeways?
Bob Harper
2012-09-21 22:30:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by M forever
Post by Kip Williams
Post by O
Speaking of the Mickey Mouse Club, anyone remember this?
http://youtu.be/phWGcOOEPZY
Those hands opening the chest are so skinny, I remembered them being
skeleton hands. Of course, I never did find out what happened to all
those gold doubloons, and pieces of eight, pieces of eight, pieces of
eight.
Sounds like Thurl Ravenscroft's deep voice there.
We lived in Southern California in the 50s. I was born maybe some 35
miles from Disneyland. They say that my middle sister (born in '52) was
so excited to see Spin& Marty Tim Consodine and David Stollery that
she ran past a barrier and toddled up to them, and they thought she was
just so cute.
I'm also told that they took me to Disneyland twice before I was a year
old. I always felt cheated at not remembering it, so I made up my own
memories. Oh boy! Yogi Bear!
Kip W
What was Southern California like back then? Was there a lot more open
and undeveloped ground in the areas which are now plastered with
shopping malls and freeways?
I was not in SoCal that long ago, but even in the early '70s, when I was
first there, there was a lot more open space. I remember flying out of
Ontario and wondering what on earth they were doing putting an airport
out in the middle of nowhere. The rental car drop was a couple of
trailers, and the terminal was miniscule. No longer.

Bob Harper
Kip Williams
2012-09-22 05:16:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by M forever
Post by Kip Williams
We lived in Southern California in the 50s. I was born maybe some 35
miles from Disneyland. They say that my middle sister (born in '52) was
so excited to see Spin& Marty Tim Consodine and David Stollery that
she ran past a barrier and toddled up to them, and they thought she was
just so cute.
I'm also told that they took me to Disneyland twice before I was a year
old. I always felt cheated at not remembering it, so I made up my own
memories. Oh boy! Yogi Bear!
What was Southern California like back then? Was there a lot more open
and undeveloped ground in the areas which are now plastered with
shopping malls and freeways?
I was not in SoCal that long ago, but even in the early '70s, when I was
first there, there was a lot more open space. I remember flying out of
Ontario and wondering what on earth they were doing putting an airport
out in the middle of nowhere. The rental car drop was a couple of
trailers, and the terminal was miniscule. No longer.
My memories of southern California are fragmentary and elusive. I can
recall a minute or two of walking along a lane in Long Beach, noting a
swing set along the way. We got to my aunt's house, and there the memory
ends, like a flapping film end. I also have a memory or two that are
probably from the crib, but so vague that I mostly remember how I
described them to myself years ago, when they were still in actual memory.

I remember lots more from the train ride to Colorado with Mom when we
moved. I was almost three. The green glass dome of the observation car
was interesting, as was the carpet on the floor of the area. I remember
the train station in Denver. The strongest memory is of the toilet on
the train, which I found fascinating.

Once in a while, I dreamed of Disneyland. One time we were driving
through orchards toward the park. I later found out from my sister that
this was a fairly accurate depiction. Buried memory?


Kip W
Tassilo
2012-09-20 23:20:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark S
The concept you're putting forward is quite foreign to my way of listening to and thinking about music and performances. Proposing an "un-bettered" recording leads instantly to an "on the other hand" thought.
This just demonstrates that you don’t grasp the concept of the “special favorite.” The OP has his special favorites, as most people do, and he’s wondering what the special favorites of other people might be. The possibility that a listener might have a special favorite seems to alarm you.

My favorite recording of Elliott Carter’s 3rd String Quartet is the first recording by the Juilliard String Quartet made right after the premiere. Nothing since has equaled let alone surpassed it. (Released on a Columbia LP, it’s never been reissued on CD.)

-dg
Mark S
2012-09-21 03:15:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tassilo
Post by Mark S
The concept you're putting forward is quite foreign to my way of listening to and thinking about music and performances. Proposing an "un-bettered" recording leads instantly to an "on the other hand" thought.
This just demonstrates that you don’t grasp the concept of the “special favorite.” The OP has his special favorites, as most people do, and he’s wondering what the special favorites of other people might be. The possibility that a listener might have a special favorite seems to alarm you.
The words "special favorite" don't appear in the OP. That's something you made up, and it doesn't have anything to do with the OP.
Tassilo
2012-09-21 05:40:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark S
The words "special favorite" don't appear in the OP. That's something you made up, and it doesn't have anything to do with the OP.
Yes, it does. I was translating for you, since you didn't understand what the OP was getting at.

-dg
Mark S
2012-09-21 13:53:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tassilo
Post by Mark S
The words "special favorite" don't appear in the OP. That's something you made up, and it doesn't have anything to do with the OP.
Yes, it does. I was translating for you, since you didn't understand what the OP was getting at.
That's some spin there. Are you working for the Romney campaign by any chance?
wkasimer
2012-09-20 17:18:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
wkasimer
2012-09-20 17:26:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
I might agree with you here, if it weren't for the fact that Reizen
recorded the role with the otherwise same forces.
Post by Precious Roy
What are some of yours?
Wolf's "Prometheus" with Schorr, Barbirolli, LSO
RVW's "On Wenlock Edge" with Pears, Zorian Quartet
Grieg's "Varen" with Bonney
LvB Missa Solemnis with Gardiner
Glinka: Ruslan and Ludmila Overture - Reiner, CSO
Bach: Chaconne (piano arrangement) with Michelangeli

Bill
p***@gmail.com
2012-09-20 21:21:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by wkasimer
I might agree with you here, if it weren't for the fact that Reizen
recorded the role with the otherwise same forces.
I think we discussed this once... I have the Preiser 3CD set, and I'm not sure that Reizen's Boris recordings cover the whole part. Could we, in fact, splice the Reizen recordings into the other recording, and have the complete work? (i.e., as complete as the Pirogov?) I haven't tried.
wkasimer
2012-09-20 21:44:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by wkasimer
I might agree with you here, if it weren't for the fact that Reizen
recorded the role with the otherwise same forces.
I think we discussed this once... I have the Preiser 3CD set, and I'm not sure that >Reizen's Boris recordings cover the whole part. Could we, in fact, splice the Reizen >recordings into the other recording, and have the complete work? (i.e., as complete >as the Pirogov?)
That's exactly what the Soviets did. They took the pre-existing
Pirogov recording, re-recorded the scenes that included the Tsar with
Reizen, and issued the recording using these new recordings plus all
of the old scenes that didn't require re-recording for Reizen. Or was
it the other way around? In any event, here's the complete recording:

http://www.amazon.com/Mussorgsky-Boris-Godunov-Reizen-Heritage/dp/B005D4DXZC

http://www.amazon.com/Godunov-I-Kozlovski-M-Mikhalov-M-Maksakova-orchestra/dp/B0058TI79E

http://www.amazon.com/Mussorgsky-Boris-Godunov-Modest/dp/B00000JRKH

http://www.amazon.com/Boris-Godunov-Mussorgsky/dp/B00004T0MX

I have the first one listed above, which also includes extra scenes
with Reizen as Pimen and Varlaam.

Bill
wkasimer
2012-09-21 11:28:08 UTC
Permalink
That's exactly what the Soviets did.  They took the pre-existing
Pirogov recording, re-recorded the scenes that included the Tsar with
Reizen, and issued the recording using these new recordings plus all
of the old scenes that didn't require re-recording for Reizen.  Or was
http://www.amazon.com/Mussorgsky-Boris-Godunov-Reizen-Heritage/dp/B00...
There was a copy recently on eBay that didn't sell:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/140847549911

Bill
p***@gmail.com
2012-09-21 17:12:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by wkasimer
That's exactly what the Soviets did. They took the pre-existing
Pirogov recording, re-recorded the scenes that included the Tsar with
Reizen, and issued the recording using these new recordings plus all
of the old scenes that didn't require re-recording for Reizen. Or was
Bill
Thanks for this. But (this must reflect on me) I am happy with Pirogov, as beautiful as Reizen's instrument is. Still and all, I'd love to have any information about what exactly was done here. Since the Reizen parts seem not to have seen release until the 1970s, the details -- little details like the priority of the 2 versions, as you note -- seem to be lost in the mists of postwar Soviet recording history.
wkasimer
2012-09-21 17:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Still and all, I'd love to have any information about what exactly was done here. >Since the Reizen parts seem not to have seen release until the 1970s, the details >-- little details like the priority of the 2 versions, as you note -- seem to be lost in >the mists of postwar Soviet recording history.
I don't think that anyone is quite sure which version came first, or
why it was deemed necessary to record Boris with a different singer in
the title role. I've read rumors about Stalin's involvement, but I'm
not sure that we'll ever know the reason. I'm just happy to have
both.

Bill
d***@gmail.com
2012-09-20 19:43:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
Unsurpassable, or unsurpassed? There is a big difference.
wagnerfan
2012-09-20 20:14:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@gmail.com
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
Unsurpassable, or unsurpassed? There is a big difference.
So predictable here that a simple question became over-analyzed and
picked apart - I was just wondering how long it would take.

Wagner fan
mandryka
2012-09-20 20:37:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
Unsurpassable, or unsurpassed?  There is a big difference.
   So predictable here that a simple question became over-analyzed and
picked apart - I was just wondering how long it would take.
Wagner fan
Just like those questions Socrates used to ask.
wagnerfan
2012-09-20 20:48:31 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:37:40 -0700 (PDT), mandryka
Post by mandryka
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
Unsurpassable, or unsurpassed?  There is a big difference.
   So predictable here that a simple question became over-analyzed and
picked apart - I was just wondering how long it would take.
Wagner fan
Just like those questions Socrates used to ask.
Not really...... Wagner fan
Precious Roy
2012-09-20 21:15:27 UTC
Permalink
To be fair (to myself), I never asked about any "general quality" -- it really doesn't matter to me *why* you are compelled to hear the recording in preference to other recordings. And I did indicate I wouldn't speculate on the concept of the "definitive." In fact I was trying to break that conceptual hold. When we say a recording is "definitive" we are trying to impose our preference on another. When we say "(Sigh!) ... the Monteux is great but it's making me want the Toscanini" we are just being true to ourselves.

I don't do this for very many recordings, just a few.

Another one: Horenstein's Bruckner 9. I know other great ones ... but still ...

I don't think the helpful posters here have been "saying nothing." They've been giving me some wonderful ideas of things I might want to hear. Thanks to all and keep a-goin'.
Oscar
2012-09-20 22:02:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
I don't think the helpful posters here have been "saying nothing."
They've been giving me some wonderful ideas of things I might
want to hear. Thanks to all and keep a-goin'.
Wieniawski's Violin Concerto No. 2 by Michael Rabin, the stereo one
from 1960 w/ Goossens & Philharmonians. I have like praise for his
Paganini VC 1 from the same Abbey Road sessions (the day before), but
unsurpassable? Hmm.
The Historian
2012-09-22 23:13:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar
Post by Precious Roy
I don't think the helpful posters here have been "saying nothing."
They've been giving me some wonderful ideas of things I might
want to hear. Thanks to all and keep a-goin'.
Wieniawski's Violin Concerto No. 2 by Michael Rabin, the stereo one
from 1960 w/ Goossens & Philharmonians.
Heifetz stereo recording on RCA.
jrsnfld
2012-09-20 22:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
Another one: Horenstein's Bruckner 9. I know other great ones ... but still ...
Which Horenstein Bruckner 9?

--Jeff
whiskynsplash
2012-09-21 01:49:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by jrsnfld
Post by Precious Roy
Another one: Horenstein's Bruckner 9. I know other great ones ... but still ...
Which Horenstein Bruckner 9?
--Jeff
All of them would be incomplete with only three movements and are
therefore unfit for human consumption.
HvT
2012-09-20 21:47:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by mandryka
Post by wagnerfan
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you,
just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others
but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous
and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also
won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard
recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm
talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in
our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
Unsurpassable, or unsurpassed? There is a big difference.
So predictable here that a simple question became over-analyzed and
picked apart - I was just wondering how long it would take.
Wagner fan
Just like those questions Socrates used to ask.
Socrates never took himself seriously.

Henk
J.Martin
2012-09-21 00:00:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What are some of yours?
I probably have a number of these, but the only one that springs
immediately to mind is the Rostropovich/Richter LvB cello sonatas. I
think it was the first set I got, and I loved it, and I would read all
these reviews and comments that this or that recording was better, and
I'd listen to the alternatives, and I'd winding up just liking the
Rostropovich/Richter more.
MELMOTH
2012-09-21 08:52:37 UTC
Permalink
Ce cher mammifère du nom de Precious Roy nous susurrait, le jeudi
20/09/2012, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales tout
de même, et dans le message
Post by Precious Roy
What are some of yours?
Goldberg by Gould (1981)
Waldstein by Arrau ('60)
Schubert 9th by Walter ('50)
Liszt sonata by Gilels (RCA)
Scarlatti sonata by Horowitz
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin ; et celui qui
accroît sa science accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1-18]
MELMOTH - souffrant
aesthete8
2012-09-21 09:42:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
For a long time, wasn't Klemperer's Brahms Requiem considered a
standard of standards?
D***@aol.com
2012-09-22 21:20:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
I have taken this to mean simply one's own preferences. Others might
disagree, which is fine. In fact, difference and discussion can only
stimulate the level of conversation. But I love this.

I in fact agree with what you say and most of the above. But for
Mahler 4 it would be Mengelberg/Concertbouw for me. And too Boris with
Golovanov, but with the Boris and other scenes sung by Mark Reizen.
This complex topic came up in numerous subsequent posts. I might try
to write something about it. But I see that others now have.

Some more from me:

Wagner: Die Walkure: Act I -- Lehmann, Melchior, List, Bruno Walter/
VPO
Beethoven: Sonata no 21, "Waldstein" -- the mono Rudolf Serkin
Columbia recording (ML 4621)
Smetana: Ma Vlast -- Talich/Czech PO (Supraphon, 1954)
Tchaikovsky: Symphony 4 -- Koussevitzky/Boston Sym. (1949)
Beethoven: Missa Solemnis -- Bruno Walter/NYPSO etc. (1948 -- if
from a good-sounding source)
Brahms: Symphony 4 -- Furtwangler/BPO, circa 1948
Aothr Beethoven Missa: Toscanini/BBC SO, live, circa 1938 (BBC
Legends or Testament).

Good topic. Thanks.

Don Tait
Dufus
2012-09-22 22:53:05 UTC
Permalink
  Beethoven: Sonata no 21, "Waldstein" -- the mono Rudolf Serkin
Columbia recording (ML 4621)
And for me, surprisingly, Gary Graffman on the mono Columbia lp in
"Waldstein."
Roland van Gaalen
2012-09-22 21:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
The Historian
2012-09-22 23:21:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What are some of yours?
Schubert Symphony 9 - Toscanini/Philadelphia/RCA
Sibelius Four Legends - Ormandy/PO/EMI
Haydn Symphony 97 - Bernstein/NYPO
Haydn Symphonies 31/59/73 - Harnoncourt/CM
wanwan
2012-09-23 01:37:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Precious Roy
What I'd like to hear about is those recordings that, for you, just never got bettered. I mean that you try to listen to others but it makes you itch to put on the old, probably all-too-famous and revered standard.
I won't try to stop anyone debating others' selections, but I also won't read stern denunciations of the concept of a "standard recommendation". I'm not talking about perfect performances, I'm talking about the ones that establish an undeniable dominance in our listening habits.
Schumann, Carnaval, played by Rachmaninoff
Mahler 4, Szell with Cleveland O.
Beethoven 7, Toscanini with NYPSO
Ravel, Alborada del Gracioso, Paray/Detroit
Boris Godunov, cond. Golovanov with Pirogov
What are some of yours?
Recordings which are always on my mind for when wanting to hear these
works:

Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde Tie- Walter/NYP or Szell/Cleveland
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 7 Bernstein/CSO
Beethoven: Symphony No. 9 Szell/Cleveland O
Puccini: Tosca Karajan Vienna Phil
Wagner: Die Walkure Act I Walter/Vienna Phil
Strauss: Ein Heldenleben Mengelberg/NY Phil
Vaughn Williams: Tuba Concerto John Fletcher/Previn/LSO
Beethoven: Waldstein Sonata Gilels

The one unsurpassable concert for me:
Strauss: Rosenkavalier Kleiber/MET 1990

-------------
Eric
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