Discussion:
Is there a Bartok Concerto for Orchestra that's a 'revelation'?
(too old to reply)
Andy Evans
2005-11-24 17:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
R***@gmail.com
2005-11-24 17:31:10 UTC
Permalink
It's a pretty
Post by Andy Evans
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it?
Dorati takes this point of view and defends it brilliantly - the
Mercury perf (LSO) is admirably "Hungarian" - but I don't know if you
will find it a revelation.
Todd Schurk
2005-11-24 17:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Yes there is. Zoltan Kocsis and the Hungarian National Philharmonic
orchestra on Hungaroton. It will knock your socks off. It is the best
conducted,played,recorded and paprika filled version on disc-hands
down. I've been listening to this work for 40 years and have heard most
of 'em...Reiner,Stoky,Ormandy,Dorati,Szell,Koussy,Lenny,Leinsdorf...but
this one with Kocsis is simply the best.
Michael Schaffer
2005-11-24 23:53:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
Yes there is. Zoltan Kocsis and the Hungarian National Philharmonic
orchestra on Hungaroton. It will knock your socks off. It is the best
conducted,played,recorded and paprika filled version on disc-hands
down. I've been listening to this work for 40 years and have heard most
of 'em...Reiner,Stoky,Ormandy,Dorati,Szell,Koussy,Lenny,Leinsdorf...but
this one with Kocsis is simply the best.
Do you know the recording with Ivan Fischer and the Budapest Festival
Orchestra? I only heard it once and haven't formed an opinion yet, but
the playing is definitely very attractive and the instrumental colors
very nice and idiomatic.
Bob Lombard
2005-11-25 01:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Todd Schurk
Yes there is. Zoltan Kocsis and the Hungarian National
Philharmonic
orchestra on Hungaroton. It will knock your socks off. It
is the best
conducted,played,recorded and paprika filled version on
disc-hands
down. I've been listening to this work for 40 years and
have heard most
of
'em...Reiner,Stoky,Ormandy,Dorati,Szell,Koussy,Lenny,Leinsdorf...but
this one with Kocsis is simply the best.
Do you know the recording with Ivan Fischer and the
Budapest Festival
Orchestra? I only heard it once and haven't formed an
opinion yet, but
the playing is definitely very attractive and the
instrumental colors
very nice and idiomatic.
It's a very good 'top layer' reading.

bl
Michael Schaffer
2005-11-25 01:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Lombard
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Todd Schurk
Yes there is. Zoltan Kocsis and the Hungarian National
Philharmonic
orchestra on Hungaroton. It will knock your socks off. It
is the best
conducted,played,recorded and paprika filled version on
disc-hands
down. I've been listening to this work for 40 years and
have heard most
of
'em...Reiner,Stoky,Ormandy,Dorati,Szell,Koussy,Lenny,Leinsdorf...but
this one with Kocsis is simply the best.
Do you know the recording with Ivan Fischer and the
Budapest Festival
Orchestra? I only heard it once and haven't formed an
opinion yet, but
the playing is definitely very attractive and the
instrumental colors
very nice and idiomatic.
It's a very good 'top layer' reading.
bl
I like the layer concept, but I don't really understand what the layers
are in your model. Please explain.
Bob Lombard
2005-11-25 02:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Bob Lombard
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Todd Schurk
Yes there is. Zoltan Kocsis and the Hungarian National
Philharmonic
orchestra on Hungaroton. It will knock your socks off.
It
is the best
conducted,played,recorded and paprika filled version
on
disc-hands
down. I've been listening to this work for 40 years
and
have heard most
of
'em...Reiner,Stoky,Ormandy,Dorati,Szell,Koussy,Lenny,Leinsdorf...but
this one with Kocsis is simply the best.
Do you know the recording with Ivan Fischer and the
Budapest Festival
Orchestra? I only heard it once and haven't formed an
opinion yet, but
the playing is definitely very attractive and the
instrumental colors
very nice and idiomatic.
It's a very good 'top layer' reading.
bl
I like the layer concept, but I don't really understand
what the layers
are in your model. Please explain.
The top layer is amenable to a 'straight' interpretation as
a concerto for orchestra, a la Bernstein/NYPO and
Fischer/BFO. The mood is upbeat, the whole thing is sort of
a celebration of orchestral colors. I think this is what
Andy expects to hear. The deeper layer (according to Fricsay
and me at least) is the composer's presentation of a trip to
another dimension, one our physical senses can't get much of
a handle on. There are 'presences', and things are
happening, but not much of those things are happening in the
three dimensions our senses are designed to interpret. If
you've taken a couple tokes too many, and don't trust
Bartók's implicit assurance that you'll get home OK, the
goings-on can be pretty disturbing. The last two movements
(the downslope of the arch) represent the journey back to
our familiar space.

Many folks don't get hooked by that layer in the Boulez/NYPO
recording. If you are one of those, try the Fricsay/BRSO
version. I think he's too obvious about it, but at least
you'll know how to catch the hook when you listen to
Boulez/NYPO again.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

bl
Michael Schaffer
2005-11-25 12:03:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Lombard
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Bob Lombard
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Todd Schurk
Yes there is. Zoltan Kocsis and the Hungarian National
Philharmonic
orchestra on Hungaroton. It will knock your socks off.
It
is the best
conducted,played,recorded and paprika filled version
on
disc-hands
down. I've been listening to this work for 40 years
and
have heard most
of
'em...Reiner,Stoky,Ormandy,Dorati,Szell,Koussy,Lenny,Leinsdorf...but
this one with Kocsis is simply the best.
Do you know the recording with Ivan Fischer and the
Budapest Festival
Orchestra? I only heard it once and haven't formed an
opinion yet, but
the playing is definitely very attractive and the
instrumental colors
very nice and idiomatic.
It's a very good 'top layer' reading.
bl
I like the layer concept, but I don't really understand
what the layers
are in your model. Please explain.
The top layer is amenable to a 'straight' interpretation as
a concerto for orchestra, a la Bernstein/NYPO and
Fischer/BFO. The mood is upbeat, the whole thing is sort of
a celebration of orchestral colors. I think this is what
Andy expects to hear. The deeper layer (according to Fricsay
and me at least) is the composer's presentation of a trip to
another dimension, one our physical senses can't get much of
a handle on. There are 'presences', and things are
happening, but not much of those things are happening in the
three dimensions our senses are designed to interpret. If
you've taken a couple tokes too many, and don't trust
Bartók's implicit assurance that you'll get home OK, the
goings-on can be pretty disturbing. The last two movements
(the downslope of the arch) represent the journey back to
our familiar space.
Many folks don't get hooked by that layer in the Boulez/NYPO
recording. If you are one of those, try the Fricsay/BRSO
version. I think he's too obvious about it, but at least
you'll know how to catch the hook when you listen to
Boulez/NYPO again.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
bl
"Welcome to the layer cake, son" (pretty good movie BTW featuring the
"new 007")
I agree there is something unreal and mysterious about the piece which
is hard to define, a quality that is found much in Bartók's music, and
some people are more successful at bringing that out. I haven't
listened to Fricsay in a long time but I remember he is very good at
bringing out that unreal element. I also think that Boulez's CSO
recording is much better than many say. If you don't listen carefully,
it is on the surface not quite as exciting as others, but if you do, it
is a fascinating reading right from the start where the bass lines are
very carefully developed. I also think Karajan's reading has something
removed and unreal about it, but I guess some would say that's because
most pieces he conducted sounded unreal and removed...:-) But I like it.
Andy Evans
2005-11-26 11:30:19 UTC
Permalink
The deeper layer (according to Fricsay and me at least) is the
composer's presentation of a trip to another dimension, one our
physical senses can't get much of a handle on. There are 'presences',
and things are happening>

Well, Bob, I went out and got the Fricsay. Wow - this is different,
virtually another work. Much too much to figure out on one listen.
There's nothing in the sleeve notes about Fricsay's description of this
work. Do you have any idea where I can find this chapter of Uber
Mozart und Bartok in English? It's not on the Net is it? I did find a
reader for another book on the Concerto, which is very interesting.
Maybe some of you would like to take a look:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0521485053/ref=sib_dp_pt/203-0708277-8263145#reader-page
Bob Lombard
2005-11-26 13:30:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
The deeper layer (according to Fricsay and me at least) is the
composer's presentation of a trip to another dimension, one our
physical senses can't get much of a handle on. There are 'presences',
and things are happening>
Well, Bob, I went out and got the Fricsay. Wow - this is different,
virtually another work. Much too much to figure out on one listen.
There's nothing in the sleeve notes about Fricsay's description of this
work. Do you have any idea where I can find this chapter of Uber
Mozart und Bartok in English? It's not on the Net is it? I did find a
reader for another book on the Concerto, which is very interesting.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0521485053/ref=sib_dp_pt/203-0708277-8263145#reader-page
I'm pretty sure that I read of Fricsay's opinion in liner/jacket notes
for a recording of the CfO - maybe from an earlier release of the
subject recording. He wasn't as explicit as I am, but he mentions
Bartók's 'other place', and his attempt to take the listener there via
the CfO. Fricsay's interpretation is intended as an 'assist' (as the
term is used in basketball and hockey). The author of the introduction
to the book being peddled by amazon.uk gets lost in surmise eventually
(seems like everybody does when trying to _explain_ Bartók's music), but
it's interesting.

bl
Andy Evans
2005-11-26 23:00:02 UTC
Permalink
The author of the introduction to the book being peddled by amazon.uk
gets lost in surmise eventually >

the Hesse quote about Bartok is beautiful - Cooper, on the other hand
is typically turgid musicology. Hesse manages to say five times as much
without using the word hagiography.
Brendan R. Wehrung
2005-11-27 06:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Bob Lombard
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Todd Schurk
Yes there is. Zoltan Kocsis and the Hungarian National
Philharmonic
orchestra on Hungaroton. It will knock your socks off. It
is the best
conducted,played,recorded and paprika filled version on
disc-hands
down. I've been listening to this work for 40 years and
have heard most
of
'em...Reiner,Stoky,Ormandy,Dorati,Szell,Koussy,Lenny,Leinsdorf...but
this one with Kocsis is simply the best.
Do you know the recording with Ivan Fischer and the
Budapest Festival
Orchestra? I only heard it once and haven't formed an
opinion yet, but
the playing is definitely very attractive and the
instrumental colors
very nice and idiomatic.
It's a very good 'top layer' reading.
bl
I like the layer concept, but I don't really understand what the layers
are in your model. Please explain.
Think of a shacher torte...

Brendan
a***@aol.com
2005-11-26 00:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Todd Schurk
Yes there is. Zoltan Kocsis and the Hungarian National Philharmonic
orchestra on Hungaroton. It will knock your socks off. It is the best
conducted,played,recorded and paprika filled version on disc-hands
down. I've been listening to this work for 40 years and have heard most
of 'em...Reiner,Stoky,Ormandy,Dorati,Szell,Koussy,Lenny,Leinsdorf...but
this one with Kocsis is simply the best.
Do you know the recording with Ivan Fischer and the Budapest Festival
Orchestra? I only heard it once and haven't formed an opinion yet, but
the playing is definitely very attractive and the instrumental colors
very nice and idiomatic.
I do not know either of the recordings but the Hungarian Philharmonic
is a great orchestra as are the Opera Orchestra.

A few years ago I heard Mr Fischer with his Budapest orchestra live in
this work and also in Kodaly: Hary Janos (a work whose neglect I do not
understand) and both were wonderful performances.

Mr Ancerl was rather good at the Concerto as well. I also love this
piece: pity it's so tough, another little counting nightmare:):)

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
The Historian
2005-11-26 23:50:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
Yes there is. Zoltan Kocsis and the Hungarian National Philharmonic
orchestra on Hungaroton. It will knock your socks off. It is the best
conducted,played,recorded and paprika filled version on disc-hands
down. I've been listening to this work for 40 years and have heard most
of 'em...Reiner,Stoky,Ormandy,Dorati,Szell,Koussy,Lenny,Leinsdorf...but
this one with Kocsis is simply the best.
So far no one's mentioned Skrowaczewski/MO on Vox. It's been forgotten,
but is it forgettable?
Dave Cook
2005-11-27 06:01:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Historian
So far no one's mentioned Skrowaczewski/MO on Vox. It's been forgotten,
but is it forgettable?
BRO still has the set for $6.

Dave Cook
Paul Ilechko
2005-11-27 17:08:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Cook
Post by The Historian
So far no one's mentioned Skrowaczewski/MO on Vox. It's been forgotten,
but is it forgettable?
BRO still has the set for $6.
Dave Cook
At that price, everyone should buy it !
j***@aol.com
2005-11-24 17:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
Coming back to the Reiner/CSO recently after many years, I felt its
virtues all the more. The playing just seemed stupendous--free and
disciplined, expressive and single-minded. The concentration is
spellbinding to me, but I admit that once one gets used to it or plays
it too often and it starts seeming dry and inevitable.

I recommend Chailly very strongly. It is beautifullly played--no more
tender than the Reiner, necessarily, but with a great sense of color
and modern sound (not that the sound on the Reiner is anything but
great). You'll get a different experience from Chailly.

For a uniquely interesting performance, you might also try Celibidache,
though I wouldn't say he's the standard.

And for Hungarians, there's that Kocsis recording on Hungaroton that I
haven't heard but has gotten raves from several quarters. And have you
tried Fricsay, or Ivan Fischer?

--Jeff
Andy Evans
2005-11-24 22:19:25 UTC
Permalink
Coming back to the Reiner/CSO recently .. The playing just seemed
stupendous--free and disciplined, expressive and single-minded. The
concentration is spellbinding to me, but I admit that once one gets
used to it or plays it too often and it starts seeming dry and
inevitable. >

Yes, I think that's a good description. coming back to it I felt rather
let down in terms of its total effect, though there was a lot of
satisfying detail. Maybe it's just a bit too controlled - Stokowski
lets go that much more, bends the music, indulges in certain effects
which work in his hands. I'm just listening to Boulez/Chicago right now
- same orchestra. Similarly intelligent, carefully constructed. Maybe I
miss something demonic - you sometimes feel that Bartok is dancing with
the Devil.
Sacqueboutier
2005-11-25 01:55:50 UTC
Permalink
On 2005-11-24 17:19:25 -0500, "Andy Evans"
Post by Andy Evans
Coming back to the Reiner/CSO recently .. The playing just seemed
stupendous--free and disciplined, expressive and single-minded. The
concentration is spellbinding to me, but I admit that once one gets
used to it or plays it too often and it starts seeming dry and
inevitable. >
Yes, I think that's a good description. coming back to it I felt rather
let down in terms of its total effect, though there was a lot of
satisfying detail. Maybe it's just a bit too controlled - Stokowski
lets go that much more, bends the music, indulges in certain effects
which work in his hands. I'm just listening to Boulez/Chicago right now
- same orchestra. Similarly intelligent, carefully constructed. Maybe I
miss something demonic - you sometimes feel that Bartok is dancing with
the Devil.
Like Pictures at an Exhibition, Chicago has had an excellent history
with this piece. Recordings with Reiner, Ozawa, Solti, and Boulez are
all excellent in there different ways.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Sacqueboutier
2005-11-24 18:08:11 UTC
Permalink
On 2005-11-24 12:08:34 -0500, "Andy Evans"
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
Stokowski? Well recorded? Your copy must have been better than my
cheap, college book store Everest. The CD is much better and it's
interesting to hear principal trumpet Armando Ghitalla early in his
career (Houston). Also interesting is that this was the first stereo
recording of the piece.

If I only had to have one (what a horrible thought), I think I would
stick with Reiner.

That said, Kubelik/BSO on DGG is excellent in almost every
way...interpretively equal to the feted Reiner.

If you can track down a copy of Arpad Joo's recording on Sefel, it may
provide some new insight into the piece. I have the LP and have posted
mp3s in that NG. It was briefly available on CD, I think. All of
those Sefel discs would be a good acquisition for Brilliant Classics.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Todd Schurk
2005-11-24 18:17:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
On 2005-11-24 12:08:34 -0500, "Andy Evans"
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
Stokowski? Well recorded? Your copy must have been better than my
cheap, college book store Everest. The CD is much better and it's
interesting to hear principal trumpet Armando Ghitalla early in his
career (Houston). Also interesting is that this was the first stereo
recording of the piece.
If I only had to have one (what a horrible thought), I think I would
stick with Reiner.
That said, Kubelik/BSO on DGG is excellent in almost every
way...interpretively equal to the feted Reiner.
If you can track down a copy of Arpad Joo's recording on Sefel, it may
provide some new insight into the piece. I have the LP and have posted
mp3s in that NG. It was briefly available on CD, I think. All of
those Sefel discs would be a good acquisition for Brilliant Classics.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
I could be wrong,but I think the stereo Reiner predates the
Stoky/Everest stereo. Reiner was taped October 22,1955. I thought the
Stoky was from 1958 or so.
Sacqueboutier
2005-11-24 19:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by Sacqueboutier
On 2005-11-24 12:08:34 -0500, "Andy Evans"
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
Stokowski? Well recorded? Your copy must have been better than my
cheap, college book store Everest. The CD is much better and it's
interesting to hear principal trumpet Armando Ghitalla early in his
career (Houston). Also interesting is that this was the first stereo
recording of the piece.
If I only had to have one (what a horrible thought), I think I would
stick with Reiner.
That said, Kubelik/BSO on DGG is excellent in almost every
way...interpretively equal to the feted Reiner.
If you can track down a copy of Arpad Joo's recording on Sefel, it may
provide some new insight into the piece. I have the LP and have posted
mp3s in that NG. It was briefly available on CD, I think. All of
those Sefel discs would be a good acquisition for Brilliant Classics.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
I could be wrong,but I think the stereo Reiner predates the
Stoky/Everest stereo. Reiner was taped October 22,1955. I thought the
Stoky was from 1958 or so.
You are correct. I checked the CD and it was recorded in 1961! I
thought I had remembered a notation on the old album cover that claimed
to be the first stereo recording.

Never mind. :-)
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
r***@usa.net
2005-11-26 20:22:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
On 2005-11-24 12:08:34 -0500, "Andy Evans"
Stokowski? Well recorded? Your copy must have been better than my
cheap, college book store Everest. The CD is much better and it's
interesting to hear principal trumpet Armando Ghitalla early in his
career (Houston). Also interesting is that this was the first stereo
recording of the piece.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
A few days late, but I need to question Ghitalla's participation in
Stoki's Bartok. Ghitalla started in Boston in 1951 and as far as I
know, never left. I thought he played in Houston before going to
Boston.

Ron Whitaker
Sacqueboutier
2005-11-27 01:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@usa.net
Post by Sacqueboutier
On 2005-11-24 12:08:34 -0500, "Andy Evans"
Stokowski? Well recorded? Your copy must have been better than my
cheap, college book store Everest. The CD is much better and it's
interesting to hear principal trumpet Armando Ghitalla early in his
career (Houston). Also interesting is that this was the first stereo
recording of the piece.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
A few days late, but I need to question Ghitalla's participation in
Stoki's Bartok. Ghitalla started in Boston in 1951 and as far as I
know, never left. I thought he played in Houston before going to
Boston.
Ron Whitaker
You may be right. I am going on anecdotal evidence. I'm from Houston
and the story I heard was that Ghitalla was principal in Houston during
the Stoky years. If you know otherwise, I yield the floor.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Jimmy Smith
2005-11-24 19:01:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
Every one of them is a revelation that he put one over on us. The guy had
the talent of a chucklehead meatball and for years we have been paying for
and listening to random notes he put down on paper while he was drunk on
pot. Now it's too late to take it back since all the record companies have
the free catalog. Therefore, we all calculate the difference between the
timbre and the freqency of his castings only to discover it isn't really
true music.

Jimmy
Todd Schurk
2005-11-24 19:06:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jimmy Smith
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
Every one of them is a revelation that he put one over on us. The guy had
the talent of a chucklehead meatball and for years we have been paying for
and listening to random notes he put down on paper while he was drunk on
pot. Now it's too late to take it back since all the record companies have
the free catalog. Therefore, we all calculate the difference between the
timbre and the freqency of his castings only to discover it isn't really
true music.
Jimmy
Easy on the eggnog Jimmy-it's a long way to Christmas.
Sacqueboutier
2005-11-24 19:28:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jimmy Smith
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
Every one of them is a revelation that he put one over on us. The guy
had the talent of a chucklehead meatball and for years we have been
paying for and listening to random notes he put down on paper while he
was drunk on pot. Now it's too late to take it back since all the
record companies have the free catalog. Therefore, we all calculate
the difference between the timbre and the freqency of his castings only
to discover it isn't really true music.
Jimmy
And true music would be....?
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Paul Ilechko
2005-11-24 21:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Jimmy Smith
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
Every one of them is a revelation that he put one over on us. The guy
had the talent of a chucklehead meatball and for years we have been
paying for and listening to random notes he put down on paper while he
was drunk on pot. Now it's too late to take it back since all the
record companies have the free catalog. Therefore, we all calculate
the difference between the timbre and the freqency of his castings
only to discover it isn't really true music.
Jimmy
And true music would be....?
Don't encourage the troll.
Allen
2005-11-24 19:14:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
I keep haunting the used racks looking for The Blomstedt/SFO recording.
I heard it on the radio a while back; I was driving but when I arrived
at my destination I just sat in the car waiting to find out who was
playing. It's OP, but I understand that it can be ordered as a one-up
transfer. If I don't fid it soon I'll resort to that approach. Against
all the recordings of the Cto that I have owned, that one had something
special going for it that seemed unique. I do want to say that I've
never heard a reording of it that disappointed me; it's a great piece of
music IMNSHO.
Allen
Frank Berger
2005-11-24 20:23:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
I keep haunting the used racks looking for The Blomstedt/SFO recording. I
heard it on the radio a while back; I was driving but when I arrived at my
destination I just sat in the car waiting to find out who was playing.
It's OP, but I understand that it can be ordered as a one-up transfer. If
I don't fid it soon I'll resort to that approach. Against all the
recordings of the Cto that I have owned, that one had something special
going for it that seemed unique. I do want to say that I've never heard a
reording of it that disappointed me; it's a great piece of music IMNSHO.
Allen
It shows up on ebay and amazon from time to time. That's how I got mine.
Paul Ilechko
2005-11-24 19:20:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
Duuno about revelations, but Reiner and Ormandy are my favourites.
Bob Lombard
2005-11-24 19:34:45 UTC
Permalink
"Andy Evans" <***@gmail.com> wrote in
message news:***@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? What are some of the keys to
interpreting this work?
The most insightful performance is not Hungarian;
Boulez/NYPO.

The 'keys' are that there are layers, and that the music is
Bartokian. The top layer is exemplified by the
Bernstein/NYPO recording. The layer that Boulez reveals with
admirable finesse is presented 'in-your-face' by Fricsay and
that German orchestra (that I keep forgetting the name of).
There are several good performances of the top layer, only
those two (that I've heard) that adequately reveal the
deeper layer.

bl
Frank Berger
2005-11-24 20:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? What are some of the keys to interpreting
this work?
The most insightful performance is not Hungarian; Boulez/NYPO.
The 'keys' are that there are layers, and that the music is Bartokian. The
top layer is exemplified by the Bernstein/NYPO recording. The layer that
Boulez reveals with admirable finesse is presented 'in-your-face' by
Fricsay and that German orchestra (that I keep forgetting the name of).
Berlin Radio SO.
Post by Andy Evans
There are several good performances of the top layer, only those two (that
I've heard) that adequately reveal the deeper layer.
bl
Andy Evans
2005-11-24 22:45:36 UTC
Permalink
The most insightful performance is not Hungarian; Boulez/NYPO.>

I'm not getting much out of Chicago/Boulez. I don't think he's quite
hit the spot here, in fact in the folksy Hungarian bits he's miles out.
Listening to it as I speak - I certainly preferred Reiner so far (and
Stoky).
Bob Lombard
2005-11-25 01:56:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Lombard
The most insightful performance is not Hungarian;
Boulez/NYPO.>
I'm not getting much out of Chicago/Boulez. I don't think
he's quite
hit the spot here, in fact in the folksy Hungarian bits
he's miles out.
Listening to it as I speak - I certainly preferred Reiner
so far (and
Stoky).
He couldn't quite get to the inner layer of meaning, but the
playing isn't free-spirited enough to make the surface layer
work either. That great orchestra almost pulls it off
anyway. If you can locate the Boulez/NYPO recording, you may
hear both similarities and the undercurrent that sweeps the
listener away to another dimension, Bartók's 'other place'
referred to so openly by Fricsay (a performance you ought to
hear too).

bl
Andy Evans
2005-11-25 09:52:37 UTC
Permalink
Bob - I'd be interested in your comments on Pittsburg/Reiner. That
seems - to my ears - very "inner layer" and little show. I wonder if
you hear it that way. I think you may misunderstand what sort of
'revalation' I'm after - this Pittsburg probably comes closest so far.
Still have to locate Fricsay and NYPO/Boulez and might try the Koksic.
Your comments are very interesting. Andy
Bob Lombard
2005-11-25 13:09:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Bob - I'd be interested in your comments on
Pittsburg/Reiner. That
seems - to my ears - very "inner layer" and little show. I
wonder if
you hear it that way. I think you may misunderstand what
sort of
'revalation' I'm after - this Pittsburg probably comes
closest so far.
Still have to locate Fricsay and NYPO/Boulez and might try
the Koksic.
Your comments are very interesting. Andy
Have to listen to it again. I bought the CD years ago and
played it once, when I was listening to every recording of
the CfO I could find.

bl
Bob Lombard
2005-11-25 13:25:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Lombard
Post by Andy Evans
Bob - I'd be interested in your comments on
Pittsburg/Reiner. That
seems - to my ears - very "inner layer" and little show.
I wonder if
you hear it that way. I think you may misunderstand what
sort of
'revalation' I'm after - this Pittsburg probably comes
closest so far.
Still have to locate Fricsay and NYPO/Boulez and might
try the Koksic.
Your comments are very interesting. Andy
Have to listen to it again. I bought the CD years ago and
played it once, when I was listening to every recording of
the CfO I could find.
bl
Oops. The Reiner I have is the CSO one. Oh well. While I was
looking, I found a recording of the work by Tibor
Ferenc/HNPO; so I'll re-acquaint myself with that.

bl
Bob Lombard
2005-11-25 15:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Have to listen to it again. I bought the CD years ago and played it
once, when I was listening to every recording of the CfO I could
find.
bl
Oops. The Reiner I have is the CSO one. Oh well. While I was looking,
I found a recording of the work by Tibor Ferenc/HNPO; so I'll
re-acquaint myself with that.
bl
The CfO by Tibor Ferenc and the Hungarian National Philharmonic
Orchestra is a very dramatic, hard-edged, serious minded 'layer one'
performance; an interpretation recommendable for those qualities. Well
recorded too.

The CD - IMP Classics PCD 1013 - also contains a good performance of The
Miraculous Mandarin (the suite) and the best recording of the
Kossuth-Symphonic Poem I've heard anywhere. My copy probably came from
Berkshire, and the CD isn't listed there now....

These recordings were made in Budapest in 1988, and I suspect that the
orchestra no longer exists, but this was a highly competent group of
musicians. The CfO spotlights them, and they answered the challenge
admirably.

bl
Andy Evans
2005-11-24 22:39:45 UTC
Permalink
The 'keys' are that there are layers, and that the music is
Bartokian. The top layer is exemplified by the
Bernstein/NYPO recording. The layer that Boulez reveals with
admirable finesse is presented 'in-your-face' by Fricsay>

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I'm not against Stoky
bringing out the brilliance of the score - I'd prefer it to shine and
be brilliant, as long as there's an earthyness underneath and not just
the triviality of a showpiece. This is probably not a proper
comparison, but I feel echoes of early Stravinsky (Petrushka, Firebird)
in the kind of frenzied energy and very sinister overtones (or maybe
undertones). After all - this was 1943, and in this case the second
World War. This is the upsetting visual world of Chagall - values and
civilisation thrown up in the air. A time of cruelty, lives trampled,
insanity. I find it hard to listen to Bartok at the best of times - I
find most of his work very disturbing. But I can't think of anything
worse than underplaying it or trivialising it.
Andy Evans
2005-11-25 00:01:57 UTC
Permalink
There are several good performances of the top layer, only
those two (Boulez, Friscay) (that I've heard) that adequately reveal
the
deeper layer. >

I just listened to the Pittsburg/Reiner, and this is a performance of
considerable stature. I was surprised at how different it is from most
modern performances. It was recorded shortly after Bartok died - early
in 1946 - and was the first recorded performance. Given that Reiner had
known Bartok since 1905 and had just lost a friend and a great
compatriot, I think the prevailing mood of sadness and affection in the
performance isn;t fanciful thinking on my part. In fact, the trumpets
in the Elegia sound as if they're playing the Last Post - the notes
even take a while to die away as if Reiner is acheiving this effect
deliberately. The Intermezzo is very slow and tender for an Allegretto
- quite mournful in fact. There is almost no show, as if that didn't
befit the mood of the event. I was really moved by it. Huge echoes of
Kodaly in places - Harry Janos had been written 20 years previously. In
a way it's surprising that the Concerto was written so late in the
century - it's roots seem to come out of the twenties rather than the
forties. Nostalgia perhaps, a composer with no future looking back into
the past. .
Michael Schaffer
2005-11-25 01:21:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Lombard
There are several good performances of the top layer, only
those two (Boulez, Friscay) (that I've heard) that adequately reveal
the
deeper layer. >
I just listened to the Pittsburg/Reiner, and this is a performance of
considerable stature. I was surprised at how different it is from most
modern performances. It was recorded shortly after Bartok died - early
in 1946 - and was the first recorded performance. Given that Reiner had
known Bartok since 1905 and had just lost a friend and a great
compatriot, I think the prevailing mood of sadness and affection in the
performance isn;t fanciful thinking on my part.
Could be though. I think this performance is just stunningly bland. All
the notes are in the right place - well, OK, most of them - and that is
it. There is nothing else there. The interesting rhythms have no life.
It sounds like the orchestra found even only slightly unusual stuff
rhythms difficult and just somehow made their way through it. Or was
terrorized by Reiner through it. It sounds like a school orchestra just
struggling to get the notes in their places. No room for nuances and
inflections here. Listen to the oboe solo at the beginning of the
Intermezzo for instance. There is no inflection, no life at all there.
lalalaalalalalalalalalaalalalalala. Then the horn. What is he trying to
do musically? Is he trying to anything musical? Or is he just not sure
how to play his solo?
Or check out the horns at the beginning of the finale. ta -
taatatatatatatatatatata (trumpet) taaaaaaaaa (awkward, badly timed
pause) clack.
I agree there is a sense of sadness and seriousness about the reading.
But I don't think it is a musical achievement. It is just the absence
of any life in the notes. "Giuoco delle copie" - there is no giuoco
here. It is just "stuttering through the piece copie".
Sad indeed.
Post by Bob Lombard
In fact, the trumpets
in the Elegia sound as if they're playing the Last Post - the notes
even take a while to die away as if Reiner is acheiving this effect
deliberately. The Intermezzo is very slow and tender for an Allegretto
- quite mournful in fact. There is almost no show, as if that didn't
befit the mood of the event. I was really moved by it. Huge echoes of
Kodaly in places - Harry Janos had been written 20 years previously. In
a way it's surprising that the Concerto was written so late in the
century - it's roots seem to come out of the twenties rather than the
forties. Nostalgia perhaps, a composer with no future looking back into
the past. .
Andy Evans
2005-11-25 10:14:17 UTC
Permalink
I think (Pittsburg/Reiner) is just stunningly bland. All the notes are
in the right place - well, OK, most of them - and that is it. There is
nothing else there>

I was a little less moved the second time I heard it than the first,
but I do think it has a sense of mystery and discovery - the orchestra
was, after all, 'discovering' the work. Some parts are quite spooky -
the Elegia and the following Allegretto. I think they do maintain a
particular mood. I'll have to listen to it a few more times and see if
the effect lasts.
Michael Schaffer
2005-11-25 12:11:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
I think (Pittsburg/Reiner) is just stunningly bland. All the notes are
in the right place - well, OK, most of them - and that is it. There is
nothing else there>
I was a little less moved the second time I heard it than the first,
but I do think it has a sense of mystery and discovery - the orchestra
was, after all, 'discovering' the work. Some parts are quite spooky -
the Elegia and the following Allegretto. I think they do maintain a
particular mood. I'll have to listen to it a few more times and see if
the effect lasts.
Let us know what you think after repeated listenings. I don't want to
spoil your enthusiasm about this recording - we all look for different
things anyway - but I really don't think there is either mystery or
discovery here. Discovery in the sense that the playing is not very
assured. They do play all the notes with some confidence but its
obvious that they don't know what to do with them. I would call
discovery a reading in which the musicians dig into a new piece with
enthusiasm even if they may not have enough experience with the piece
to play it safely.
It is indeed spooky in a certain way but that's not a good way. It is
just almost completely devoid of musical nuances. Sometimes that can be
a very good and in itself musically effective thing - not everything
has to be very "expressivo" to be "expressive", sometimes a somewhat
neutral approach can reveal more of the inner depth of music than a
superficially sparkling one. But not here. This is just blandness.
Sacqueboutier
2005-11-25 19:24:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Andy Evans
I think (Pittsburg/Reiner) is just stunningly bland. All the notes are
in the right place - well, OK, most of them - and that is it. There is
nothing else there>
I was a little less moved the second time I heard it than the first,
but I do think it has a sense of mystery and discovery - the orchestra
was, after all, 'discovering' the work. Some parts are quite spooky -
the Elegia and the following Allegretto. I think they do maintain a
particular mood. I'll have to listen to it a few more times and see if
the effect lasts.
Let us know what you think after repeated listenings. I don't want to
spoil your enthusiasm about this recording - we all look for different
things anyway - but I really don't think there is either mystery or
discovery here. Discovery in the sense that the playing is not very
assured. They do play all the notes with some confidence but its
obvious that they don't know what to do with them. I would call
discovery a reading in which the musicians dig into a new piece with
enthusiasm even if they may not have enough experience with the piece
to play it safely.
It is indeed spooky in a certain way but that's not a good way. It is
just almost completely devoid of musical nuances. Sometimes that can be
a very good and in itself musically effective thing - not everything
has to be very "expressivo" to be "expressive", sometimes a somewhat
neutral approach can reveal more of the inner depth of music than a
superficially sparkling one. But not here. This is just blandness.
I think it's mostly done in by the very poor Columbia sound. No wonder
Reiner jumped to RCA.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Michael Schaffer
2005-11-26 22:00:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by Andy Evans
I think (Pittsburg/Reiner) is just stunningly bland. All the notes are
in the right place - well, OK, most of them - and that is it. There is
nothing else there>
I was a little less moved the second time I heard it than the first,
but I do think it has a sense of mystery and discovery - the orchestra
was, after all, 'discovering' the work. Some parts are quite spooky -
the Elegia and the following Allegretto. I think they do maintain a
particular mood. I'll have to listen to it a few more times and see if
the effect lasts.
Let us know what you think after repeated listenings. I don't want to
spoil your enthusiasm about this recording - we all look for different
things anyway - but I really don't think there is either mystery or
discovery here. Discovery in the sense that the playing is not very
assured. They do play all the notes with some confidence but its
obvious that they don't know what to do with them. I would call
discovery a reading in which the musicians dig into a new piece with
enthusiasm even if they may not have enough experience with the piece
to play it safely.
It is indeed spooky in a certain way but that's not a good way. It is
just almost completely devoid of musical nuances. Sometimes that can be
a very good and in itself musically effective thing - not everything
has to be very "expressivo" to be "expressive", sometimes a somewhat
neutral approach can reveal more of the inner depth of music than a
superficially sparkling one. But not here. This is just blandness.
I think it's mostly done in by the very poor Columbia sound. No wonder
Reiner jumped to RCA.
--
Best wishes,
Sacqueboutier
The sound isn't really that bad for 40s mono. But even if it was much
better, the problems would still be there: the almost complete absence
of musical nuances. The whole performance is just lalalalalalalala. A
stunningly unmusical rendering (reinering).
Raymond Hall
2005-11-24 19:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
I imprinted on Szell, and still think it a fine performance. As for Reiner's
account, it is well played, but like yourself, cannot quite put my finger on
it, but feel it lacks any sort of panache to these ears. Quite plain in
fact. Quite generic. In fact, I much prefer Haitink on a Philips Duo,
coupled with the piano concertos (Bishop/Davis), to either Szell or Reiner.

Maybe I should check out the Koscis as it is seems to be getting some huge
praise.

Ray H
Taree
Todd Schurk
2005-11-24 19:48:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
I imprinted on Szell, and still think it a fine performance. As for Reiner's
account, it is well played, but like yourself, cannot quite put my finger on
it, but feel it lacks any sort of panache to these ears. Quite plain in
fact. Quite generic. In fact, I much prefer Haitink on a Philips Duo,
coupled with the piano concertos (Bishop/Davis), to either Szell or Reiner.
Maybe I should check out the Koscis as it is seems to be getting some huge
praise.
Ray H
Taree
Once you've heard the Koscis you will not need to keep any others-it
may be one of the best recordings of classical music period ever put on
disc.
Bob Harper
2005-11-24 22:17:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
I imprinted on Szell, and still think it a fine performance. As for Reiner's
account, it is well played, but like yourself, cannot quite put my finger on
it, but feel it lacks any sort of panache to these ears. Quite plain in
fact. Quite generic. In fact, I much prefer Haitink on a Philips Duo,
coupled with the piano concertos (Bishop/Davis), to either Szell or Reiner.
Maybe I should check out the Koscis as it is seems to be getting some huge
praise.
Ray H
Taree
Once you've heard the Koscis you will not need to keep any others-it
may be one of the best recordings of classical music period ever put on
disc.
Strongly put, but I'll second it. A great recording of a great perfomance.

Bob Harper
k***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-11-24 20:01:11 UTC
Permalink
Didn't Szell make a big cut towards the end of the finale ?
Raymond Hall
2005-11-24 21:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@yahoo.co.uk
Didn't Szell make a big cut towards the end of the finale ?
Yes he did, the total muppet. The eerie 'nachtmusik' bit.

Ray H
Taree
Sacqueboutier
2005-11-25 02:01:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@yahoo.co.uk
Didn't Szell make a big cut towards the end of the finale ?
Not only cuts, but also added repeats of material that completely
changes the architecture of the final movement. If he didn't like the
piece, he shouldn't have recorded it.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Andy Evans
2005-11-24 23:13:05 UTC
Permalink
Reiner's account is well played, but I feel it lacks any sort of
panache to these ears. Quite plain in fact. Quite generic.>>

Ray - you may be interested in this snippet found on the Net
"One of the first things that Solti did was to champion the music of
Bartok with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra whereas it was Reiner who
did the championing of Bartok with this orchestra. Solti wanted and,
indeed, received the praise and glory for Reiner's achievement and
Reiner was a far better conductor. His version of Bartok's Concerto for
Orchestra is still the best and his recording with the Pittsburg
Symphony Orchestra of Shostakovich's Symphony no. 6 is very fine.
Reiner stuck to the score. Solti often deviated from a score. He always
knew best. And so it is with Rattle as it was with Karajan. Almost
every piece that they conducted was edited, altered, "improved" by
them"
As a corollory - Reiner also recorded the concerto with the Pittsburg.
I'm listening to it right now, and it sounds damn good. Andy
Sacqueboutier
2005-11-25 01:59:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
I imprinted on Szell, and still think it a fine performance.
A fine performance of what? It's not Bartok.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Raymond Hall
2005-11-25 05:37:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
I imprinted on Szell, and still think it a fine performance.
A fine performance of what? It's not Bartok.
Yes it is.

Bartok is the very name that is printed in LARGER letters than Prokofiev's
name, on the front cover of the Masterworks Heritage CD. And, fwiw, the
final movement, as recorded, has no bearing whatsoever on the recorded first
four movements of the CfO by Szell and the Cleveland mob. In these, Szell is
excellent. The fact that he decided to cut the final movement, doesn't
affect, imo, the very excellence of the first four movements. In these,
Szell is very very good.

In fact, I have four CfOs, because I have just unearthed the Dorati/RCO
account on an Eloquence, coupled to Ivan Fischer's MSPC, which I will give
another listen to tonight. I remember Dorati as being very good. Haitink is
also fine to these ears, as is the cut Szell, whereas of the four accounts,
it is Reiner that I find rather plain. Fine note spinning imo. Almost
perfunctory as a reading, and that is not to take anything away from the
CSO, but Reiner doesn't plumb any of the layers, or depth, in this music.

As for Solti, I am pleased to report that I don't have ONE of his recorded
efforts in my collection, and I won't be adding any either.

Just because Szell made a cut (the muppet) in the Bartok doesn't invalidate
it either, (as cuts, changes, and all sorts of things are done in the name
of music making), and it doesn't mean I won't listen to Szell in this work.
In fact, to be absolutely honest about it, the Bartok is the only reason to
keep the CD, because the accompanying Prok 5th stinks to high heaven. Powder
puff Prok for dummies. Sad if anyone imprinted on this Prok 5th, or have
never listened to a live P5. But then, each to their own, I spose. Previn
leaves Szell for dead in this work.

In short, even a cut Bartok CfO, is well worth the listen, especially as
done by Szell. But for now I owe Dorati's CfO a listen.

Ray H
Taree
Andy Evans
2005-11-25 10:10:08 UTC
Permalink
The fact that he decided to cut the final movement, doesn't affect,
imo, the very excellence of the first four movements. In these, Szell
is very very good.>

Just listening to it now - I like the Prokofiev 5 for the same reasons
the Bartok works for me. The tempi are carefully judged so that all the
pieces of the score fit together like a Rubik's cube. There is a sense
of the inevitable in the way the music unfolds. Maybe inevitable only
according to Szell, but he's intelligent, musically persuasive and full
of energy. It's a bit like downhill ski-ing - invigorating but not for
everyday. The lack of mystery and tenderness is a disincentive - the
clarity and vigour of his style rather precludes them.
Paul Ilechko
2005-11-25 13:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
The fact that he decided to cut the final movement, doesn't affect,
imo, the very excellence of the first four movements. In these, Szell
is very very good.>
Just listening to it now - I like the Prokofiev 5 for the same reasons
the Bartok works for me. The tempi are carefully judged so that all the
pieces of the score fit together like a Rubik's cube. There is a sense
of the inevitable in the way the music unfolds. Maybe inevitable only
according to Szell, but he's intelligent, musically persuasive and full
of energy. It's a bit like downhill ski-ing - invigorating but not for
everyday. The lack of mystery and tenderness is a disincentive - the
clarity and vigour of his style rather precludes them.
It seems that no-one other than me has any interest in the
Ormandy/Philadelphia recording, but I highly recommend it. It also comes
coupled with a very nice Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion, featuring
the Casadesus family ;-)
Alan Cooper
2005-11-25 15:38:10 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:41:53 -0500, Paul Ilechko
Post by Paul Ilechko
It seems that no-one other than me has any interest in the
Ormandy/Philadelphia recording,
Correct. If we were talking about Ormandy's Kodaly, that would be a
different story altogether.

AC
j***@aol.com
2005-11-25 20:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Ilechko
It seems that no-one other than me has any interest in the
Ormandy/Philadelphia recording...
Not true! I also have Ormandy (on Sony Essential Classics) and listen
to it happily. One can't ignore yet another great Hungarian conductor
and a great orchestra like that. I still think the Reiner/CSO is a
couple notches higher--for some reason Reiner's dry and occasionally
impish sense of understatement, and his clarity and economy,
complemented by his orchestra's stupendous power, tonal solidity, and
underrated suppleness and obvious technical comfort, seem to fit my
preconception of Bartok's own personality in his final years. But I
wouldn't be upset if only Ormandy/Philadelphia were available to play
this work. They play so well.

--Jeff
Todd Schurk
2005-11-25 15:46:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
The fact that he decided to cut the final movement, doesn't affect,
imo, the very excellence of the first four movements. In these, Szell
is very very good.>
Just listening to it now - I like the Prokofiev 5 for the same reasons
the Bartok works for me. The tempi are carefully judged so that all the
pieces of the score fit together like a Rubik's cube. There is a sense
of the inevitable in the way the music unfolds. Maybe inevitable only
according to Szell, but he's intelligent, musically persuasive and full
of energy. It's a bit like downhill ski-ing - invigorating but not for
everyday. The lack of mystery and tenderness is a disincentive - the
clarity and vigour of his style rather precludes them.
You can get Szell's clarity and vigour plus the missing mystery and
tenderness-and an even better orchestra in better sound(with no
cut)...? Dohnanyi on Decca(available now from MHS) with the Cleveland
of 20 years later. It is my favorite Cfo after the Kocis on
Hungaraton...which trumps all others I've heard-and I own 7 or 8 of the
best. Hear it! If you don't you are not hearing the best.
Michael Schaffer
2005-11-26 21:38:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by Andy Evans
The fact that he decided to cut the final movement, doesn't affect,
imo, the very excellence of the first four movements. In these, Szell
is very very good.>
Just listening to it now - I like the Prokofiev 5 for the same reasons
the Bartok works for me. The tempi are carefully judged so that all the
pieces of the score fit together like a Rubik's cube. There is a sense
of the inevitable in the way the music unfolds. Maybe inevitable only
according to Szell, but he's intelligent, musically persuasive and full
of energy. It's a bit like downhill ski-ing - invigorating but not for
everyday. The lack of mystery and tenderness is a disincentive - the
clarity and vigour of his style rather precludes them.
You can get Szell's clarity and vigour plus the missing mystery and
tenderness-and an even better orchestra in better sound(with no
cut)...? Dohnanyi on Decca(available now from MHS) with the Cleveland
of 20 years later. It is my favorite Cfo after the Kocis on
Hungaraton...which trumps all others I've heard-and I own 7 or 8 of the
best. Hear it! If you don't you are not hearing the best.
Same here (I mean Cleveland O/Christoph von D). Great playing and
sound, you hear a lot of detail you don't get in most other recordings
plus a lot of sense for color, drama, as well as the lyrical side.
Pretty groovy playing too. Plus it comes with a nice performance of
Lutoslawski's CfO.
I just ordered the Kocsis CD. Let's hope it is really that good!
Has anybody heard the recording by Mehta/BP (Sony)? (There is also an
IPO recording on Decca which I don't know.)
It is not really spectacular, very polished and rounded off, but it
also has a certain tone that somehow appeals to me.
Todd Schurk
2005-11-25 17:12:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
The fact that he decided to cut the final movement, doesn't affect,
imo, the very excellence of the first four movements. In these, Szell
is very very good.>
Just listening to it now - I like the Prokofiev 5 for the same reasons
the Bartok works for me. The tempi are carefully judged so that all the
pieces of the score fit together like a Rubik's cube. There is a sense
of the inevitable in the way the music unfolds. Maybe inevitable only
according to Szell, but he's intelligent, musically persuasive and full
of energy. It's a bit like downhill ski-ing - invigorating but not for
everyday. The lack of mystery and tenderness is a disincentive - the
clarity and vigour of his style rather precludes them.
Dohnanyi/Cleveland has the clarity & vigour of Szell plus the missing
mystery and no cut. The sound is better,as is the Orchestra. I still
favor the Hungaroton Koscis over my other
6(Chailly,Reiner,Kubelik,Szell,Dohnanyi,Haitink) versions-It's just
that good.
mw
2005-11-26 20:36:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
Dohnanyi/Cleveland has the clarity & vigour of Szell plus the missing
mystery and no cut. The sound is better,as is the Orchestra. I still
favor the Hungaroton Koscis over my other
6(Chailly,Reiner,Kubelik,Szell,Dohnanyi,Haitink) versions-It's just
that good.
I agree about the Dohnanyi. It is controlled and colorful. Who else
could bring such clarity to the last two thwacks on the timps while
still bringing punch to the last chord given the orchestra? Great
recording.

Is there a dud among the following, or are there claims for each? I
certainly have enjoyed them all:

Ancerl/CPO
Fricsay/Berlin RSO
Kubelik/RPO
Kubelik/Bavarian RSO (Orfeo)
Kubelik/BSO
Dorati/RCO
I. Fischer/BFO (Philips)
I. Fischer/BFO (Hungaroton)
Boulez/CSO
Boulez/NYPO
Bernstein/NYPO

My second rank would include
Reiner/CSO
Leinsdorf/BSO

There are other also-rans, but these stand out for their special
treatment by the labels. They certainly sound good, even if the
performances don't have the verve or character of the above. At least
IMHO.

mw
Michael Schaffer
2005-12-14 12:21:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by Andy Evans
The fact that he decided to cut the final movement, doesn't affect,
imo, the very excellence of the first four movements. In these, Szell
is very very good.>
Just listening to it now - I like the Prokofiev 5 for the same reasons
the Bartok works for me. The tempi are carefully judged so that all the
pieces of the score fit together like a Rubik's cube. There is a sense
of the inevitable in the way the music unfolds. Maybe inevitable only
according to Szell, but he's intelligent, musically persuasive and full
of energy. It's a bit like downhill ski-ing - invigorating but not for
everyday. The lack of mystery and tenderness is a disincentive - the
clarity and vigour of his style rather precludes them.
Dohnanyi/Cleveland has the clarity & vigour of Szell plus the missing
mystery and no cut. The sound is better,as is the Orchestra. I still
favor the Hungaroton Koscis over my other
6(Chailly,Reiner,Kubelik,Szell,Dohnanyi,Haitink) versions-It's just
that good.
I got the Kocsis recording in the meantime, but I have to admit that I
wasn't quite as overwhelmed by it. Maybe I just don't "get it", but I
thought it is a very well played and nicely recorded performance -
although there is a little too much spotmiking and zooming plus
reverted perspectives going on for my taste -, but I couldn't find
anything musically sensational in it. It may be among the better ones I
have heard, but, like I said, I don't get what is so special and unique
about this performance...:-(
I haven't directly compared it to other versions I have, so maybe my
recollection of those other versions is imprecise, but I actually would
prefer some of them (for instance, Dohnanyi or Fischer, maybe Chailly)
to Kocsis. I heard the Fricsay recording, but it that was so long ago
that I don't want to compare it to any of these. But I definitely want
to hear it again.
Steve Molino
2005-12-14 12:56:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
I got the Kocsis recording in the meantime, but I have to admit that I
wasn't quite as overwhelmed by it. Maybe I just don't "get it"...[snip]
I must not either. I thought the performance was rather dull compared to my
favorites (Fricsay and Reiner).
Paul Ilechko
2005-12-14 18:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Molino
Post by Michael Schaffer
I got the Kocsis recording in the meantime, but I have to admit that I
wasn't quite as overwhelmed by it. Maybe I just don't "get it"...[snip]
I must not either. I thought the performance was rather dull compared to my
favorites (Fricsay and Reiner).
I recently re-listened to Skrowaczewski, and I thought it was excellent.
Michael Schaffer
2005-12-14 19:41:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Molino
Post by Michael Schaffer
I got the Kocsis recording in the meantime, but I have to admit that I
wasn't quite as overwhelmed by it. Maybe I just don't "get it"...[snip]
I must not either. I thought the performance was rather dull compared to my
favorites (Fricsay and Reiner).
I wouldn't call it dull, it is a very good performance, but I don't see
why it is so special compared to other good recordings. Maybe there are
elements in this reading that I do not grasp but that others hear
better. It is very difficult to put such things in words, but sometimes
pointing to a certain passage and comparing it to other readings can
help "unlock" elements in an interpretation that a listener (in this
case me) missed at first ear.
Lawrence Chalmers
2005-12-14 22:09:46 UTC
Permalink
I like the Kocsis recording. It will be the 2nd recording of the work
I've kept since I first heard it - Reiner's. The reason I consider it a
'keeper' is because I love the performance of 'Dance Suite.'

The first recording I ever heard of CfO
was Dorati/Minneapolis
followed by
Van Beinum/Concertgebouw
Von Karajan/Philharmonia
Reiner/CSO
Fricsay/RIAS Orchestra
Stokowski/Houston
Dorati/LSO
Boulez/NYP
Ormandy/Philadelphia (Sony)
Solti/CSO
Boulez/CSO
Kocsis/Hungarian Nat'l

I liked them, some for different reasons. In the above list, Stoky,
later Dorati/LSO, Boulez (both), Ormandy, Solti didn't impress me much.
These days, I don't want to listen to this Bartok
like I used to, so there are many I haven't yet heard. I listen to
MSPC and Miraculous Mandarin more often than any of his orchestral
works, concertos, but I still enjoy them too.

Just IMO and 2-penny's worth...

Larry
Sacqueboutier
2005-12-14 23:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Chalmers
I like the Kocsis recording. It will be the 2nd recording of the work
I've kept since I first heard it - Reiner's. The reason I consider it a
'keeper' is because I love the performance of 'Dance Suite.'
The first recording I ever heard of CfO
was Dorati/Minneapolis
followed by
Van Beinum/Concertgebouw
Von Karajan/Philharmonia
Reiner/CSO
Fricsay/RIAS Orchestra
Stokowski/Houston
Dorati/LSO
Boulez/NYP
Ormandy/Philadelphia (Sony)
Solti/CSO
Boulez/CSO
Kocsis/Hungarian Nat'l
I liked them, some for different reasons. In the above list, Stoky,
later Dorati/LSO, Boulez (both), Ormandy, Solti didn't impress me much.
These days, I don't want to listen to this Bartok like I used to, so
there are many I haven't yet heard. I listen to
MSPC and Miraculous Mandarin more often than any of his orchestral
works, concertos, but I still enjoy them too.
Just IMO and 2-penny's worth...
Larry
You need to hear Kubelik/Boston.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Edward A. Cowan
2005-12-15 02:22:58 UTC
Permalink
You need to hear Kubelik/Boston. <<
Indeed! FWIW, I heard a Kubelik performance in Philadelphia with the
Cleveland Orch. some time around 1970. The other work on the program
was Brahms's 2nd symphony. This was the first and last time I ever
heard Kubelik live. I have been a fan ever since. My main recollection
was noticing the name of the principal cellist of the orchestra (a
certain Lynn Harrell). I was sitting just close enough to be struck by
his facial resemblance to another musician name Harrell (the baritone
Mack Harrell), and I was not surprised to learn that the cellist was
indeed the son of the baritone.

One of my professors at Penn was also in attendance at that
performance. He remarked: "Mit dem Brahms komme ich nicht aus..." ("I
cannot take the Brahms..."). The Bartok was superlative. At the Boston
concerts with CfO/Kubelik, the concerto was paired with the Beethoven
5th. Somewhere, I still have an open-reel tape of the broadcast of that
concert as heard via Philadelphia's late, lamented, WFLN-FM. --E.A.C.
Paul Kintzele
2005-12-15 05:31:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Chalmers
The first recording I ever heard of CfO
was Dorati/Minneapolis
followed by
Van Beinum/Concertgebouw
Von Karajan/Philharmonia
Reiner/CSO
Fricsay/RIAS Orchestra
Stokowski/Houston
Dorati/LSO
Boulez/NYP
Ormandy/Philadelphia (Sony)
Solti/CSO
Boulez/CSO
Kocsis/Hungarian Nat'l
I see Bernstein/Sony isn't on the list. That might just the double shot
of espresso you need. I was comparing last movements of the CfO the
other day, and Bernstein's wild ride won the day, even beating out the
estimable Reiner.

Paul
Vaneyes
2005-11-24 19:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this....
ACO/Dorati, available on Int'l and Aussi Eloquence.

Regards
Alex
2005-11-25 10:12:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
The Kocsis on Hungaraton is superb as others have said. I've just got the
new Philadelphia O/Eschenbach version on Ondine and am looking forward to
it.
Dan Koren
2005-11-26 11:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
Try Arpad Joo.



dk
Sacqueboutier
2005-11-26 12:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I grew
up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded. Just
listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something I'd
chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most of
the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or whether
there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a pretty
complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a specifically
'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago than Budapest.
Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a feel for the
Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to interpreting this work?
It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
Try Arpad Joo.
I said that. Koren agreeing with me? What is this world coming to?
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Kalman Rubinson
2005-11-26 15:29:44 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:02:00 -0500, Sacqueboutier
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Try Arpad Joo.
I said that. Koren agreeing with me? What is this world coming to?
??? How many of the Arpad Joo recordings are available on CD? I have,
on LP, all I know about. And why are they (and he) so obscure?

Kal
Gerard
2005-11-26 16:59:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kalman Rubinson
??? How many of the Arpad Joo recordings are available on CD?
His Liszt recordings on Brilliant Classics. That's all I now about his
recordings.
Sacqueboutier
2005-11-26 17:06:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kalman Rubinson
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:02:00 -0500, Sacqueboutier
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Try Arpad Joo.
I said that. Koren agreeing with me? What is this world coming to?
??? How many of the Arpad Joo recordings are available on CD? I have,
on LP, all I know about. And why are they (and he) so obscure?
Kal
There is a set of Liszt tone poems on Brilliant that is just the right
balance between panache and precision. Nice colors from his Hungarian
orchestra.

As for his Sefel recordings, none are currently on CD. I believe the
Bartok was on CD for a short while. Good luck trying to find a copy.
I've tried. Just enjoy your LPs. Digitize them if need be. Use Click
Repair to remove the excess noise. Sounds great.

In addition to his (almost) all of his Bartok on LP, I have his Mahler
1st (not his best work), a Brahms double concerto (very nice, but
Verhey and Starker have played better than this), and his Janacek
Sinfonietta and Kodaly Hary Janos Suite (fan-freaking-tastic!).

All but the Mahler are worthy of CD issue. Perhaps Brilliant can be
persuaded...
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Kalman Rubinson
2005-11-26 22:55:06 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 12:06:35 -0500, Sacqueboutier
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Kalman Rubinson
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:02:00 -0500, Sacqueboutier
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Try Arpad Joo.
I said that. Koren agreeing with me? What is this world coming to?
??? How many of the Arpad Joo recordings are available on CD? I have,
on LP, all I know about. And why are they (and he) so obscure?
Kal
There is a set of Liszt tone poems on Brilliant that is just the right
balance between panache and precision. Nice colors from his Hungarian
orchestra.
As for his Sefel recordings, none are currently on CD. I believe the
Bartok was on CD for a short while. Good luck trying to find a copy.
I've tried. Just enjoy your LPs. Digitize them if need be. Use Click
Repair to remove the excess noise. Sounds great.
In addition to his (almost) all of his Bartok on LP, I have his Mahler
1st (not his best work), a Brahms double concerto (very nice, but
Verhey and Starker have played better than this), and his Janacek
Sinfonietta and Kodaly Hary Janos Suite (fan-freaking-tastic!).
All but the Mahler are worthy of CD issue. Perhaps Brilliant can be
persuaded...
I have his Bartok, Janacek and Kodaly on LP. Never heard any of his
Liszt but I'll pass on the Mahler. Thanks.

Kal
The Historian
2005-11-26 23:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Kalman Rubinson
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:02:00 -0500, Sacqueboutier
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Try Arpad Joo.
I said that. Koren agreeing with me? What is this world coming to?
??? How many of the Arpad Joo recordings are available on CD? I have,
on LP, all I know about. And why are they (and he) so obscure?
Kal
There is a set of Liszt tone poems on Brilliant that is just the right
balance between panache and precision. Nice colors from his Hungarian
orchestra.
As for his Sefel recordings, none are currently on CD. I believe the
Bartok was on CD for a short while. Good luck trying to find a copy.
I've tried. Just enjoy your LPs. Digitize them if need be. Use Click
Repair to remove the excess noise. Sounds great.
In addition to his (almost) all of his Bartok on LP, I have his Mahler
1st (not his best work), a Brahms double concerto (very nice, but
Verhey and Starker have played better than this), and his Janacek
Sinfonietta and Kodaly Hary Janos Suite (fan-freaking-tastic!).
All but the Mahler are worthy of CD issue. Perhaps Brilliant can be
persuaded...
I had his Mendelssohn MSND on CD twenty years ago. I remember it as
ordinary and culled it.
EM
2005-11-27 16:26:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kalman Rubinson
How many of the Arpad Joo recordings are available on CD?
A few recordings of him with the Amsterdam Philharmonic (which later
merged with the Utrecht SO to the Netherlands PO) were (are?)
available on cd. I vaguely remember Dvorák 9, some Brahms and Mahler
1.

Eltjo M.
Kalman Rubinson
2005-11-28 01:42:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by EM
Post by Kalman Rubinson
How many of the Arpad Joo recordings are available on CD?
A few recordings of him with the Amsterdam Philharmonic (which later
merged with the Utrecht SO to the Netherlands PO) were (are?)
available on cd. I vaguely remember Dvorák 9, some Brahms and Mahler
1.
I have 2 Sefel CDs with Joo. Strauss' Ein Heldenleben and various
Wagner scenes (with Eva Marton). Nothing special.

It's his Bartok and Kodaly I'd like to get on CD.

Kal
EM
2005-11-27 16:29:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kalman Rubinson
How many of the Arpad Joo recordings are available on CD?
A few recordings of him with the Amsterdam Philharmonic (which later
merged with the Utrecht SO to the Netherlands PO) were (are?)
available on cd. I vaguely remember Dvorák 9, some Brahms and Mahler
1.

Eltjo M.
Andy Evans
2005-11-27 17:44:25 UTC
Permalink
In response to a previous question about the Ancerl recording, I went
out today and bought that and the Dorati Hungaraton recording. I really
think the Ancerl is very good. Quite dark and meaty - strong emphasis
on the rhythms. Good clear bass in the recording reveals the lower
strings well (plenty of rosin sound on the double basses), though the
upper strings are rougher and don't have the sheen of newer recordings.
Maybe not such a bad thing. Interesting the shift in sound with a Czech
conductor and orchestra. Ancerl is closer to Friscay (though far from
identical) than some of the 'showpiece' interpretations. Certainly on
my shortlist. Just listening to Dorati now. Good recording, and
Hungarian orchestra. It's less intense than Ancerl, though it does have
an onward sense of momentum. The phrasing is more obviously lyrical -
the brass is slick and clipped, whereas with Ancerl it's chunky, closer
to a rural 'fanfare' sound. Two fairly different approaches. I think
Ancerl interests me more - it's unlike other versions. Dorati is closer
to other well played versions - more brain than blood and guts. I
imagine many would really like it. It's a lovely sounding version and
well played.
Raymond Hall
2005-11-27 23:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
In response to a previous question about the Ancerl recording, I went
out today and bought that and the Dorati Hungaraton recording. I really
think the Ancerl is very good. Quite dark and meaty - strong emphasis
on the rhythms. Good clear bass in the recording reveals the lower
strings well (plenty of rosin sound on the double basses), though the
upper strings are rougher and don't have the sheen of newer recordings.
Maybe not such a bad thing. Interesting the shift in sound with a Czech
conductor and orchestra. Ancerl is closer to Friscay (though far from
identical) than some of the 'showpiece' interpretations. Certainly on
my shortlist. Just listening to Dorati now. Good recording, and
Hungarian orchestra. It's less intense than Ancerl, though it does have
an onward sense of momentum. The phrasing is more obviously lyrical -
the brass is slick and clipped, whereas with Ancerl it's chunky, closer
to a rural 'fanfare' sound. Two fairly different approaches. I think
Ancerl interests me more - it's unlike other versions. Dorati is closer
to other well played versions - more brain than blood and guts. I
imagine many would really like it. It's a lovely sounding version and
well played.
Have you heard Dorati's CfO with the Concertgebouw? On an Eloquence, with a
stunning MSPC by Ivan Fischer as coupling.

I listened to it a few nights ago, and thought it very good indeed. Some
very dramatic playing, but precise playing as well. Good sound too. Haitink
is a bit more clinical on a Duo, with the same orchestra. Oddly, I don't
think I have heard a really bad CfO, except that whilst Reiner is very good,
it lacks slightly the feeling of involvement that Haitink, Dorati (RCO), or
Szell bring to the work.

Ray H
Taree
Steve Emerson
2005-11-27 18:27:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kalman Rubinson
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 07:02:00 -0500, Sacqueboutier
Post by Sacqueboutier
Post by Dan Koren
Try Arpad Joo.
I said that. Koren agreeing with me? What is this world coming to?
??? How many of the Arpad Joo recordings are available on CD? I have,
on LP, all I know about. And why are they (and he) so obscure?
There's a Brahms Double Concerto with Starker and Emmy Verhey, c/w the
Tragic Overture. Amsterdam Phil. "Folio Classic Masters," DDD, no notes.

If a Joo aficianado wants it for the price of shipping, e-mail me.

SE.
Gerard
2005-12-03 14:48:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I
grew up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded.
Just listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something
I'd chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most
of the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or
whether there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a
pretty complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a
specifically 'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago
than Budapest. Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a
feel for the Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to
interpreting this work? It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
Recently I've seen a rave review by Hurwitz of the new recording by Eschenbach
on Ondine.
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9481
In this thread the recording has been mentioned once, but I did not find an
opinion about it.
Is this recording something special or just another hype of the day in the
category
American Orchestra + Hurwitz = 10/10 ?
Bob Lombard
2005-12-03 15:16:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Recently I've seen a rave review by Hurwitz of the new recording by Eschenbach
on Ondine.
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9481
In this thread the recording has been mentioned once, but I did not find an
opinion about it.
Is this recording something special or just another hype of the day in the
category
American Orchestra + Hurwitz = 10/10 ?
The description (Hurwitz doesn't reserve 10/10 for American orchestras
BTW - that rating is too freely given to indicate anything but 'pretty
good' anyway) indicates either a 'top layer' interpretation or Hurwitz's
unawareness of deeper layers.

I don't intend to _buy_ any more recordings of the CfO, but in the
spirit of the season am willing to accept this recording as a gift.

bl
Sacqueboutier
2005-12-03 18:39:34 UTC
Permalink
On 2005-12-03 10:16:57 -0500, "Bob Lombard"
Post by Bob Lombard
Post by Gerard
Recently I've seen a rave review by Hurwitz of the new recording by Eschenbach
on Ondine.
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9481
In this thread the recording has been mentioned once, but I did not find an
opinion about it.
Is this recording something special or just another hype of the day in the
category
American Orchestra + Hurwitz = 10/10 ?
The description (Hurwitz doesn't reserve 10/10 for American orchestras
BTW - that rating is too freely given to indicate anything but 'pretty
good' anyway) indicates either a 'top layer' interpretation or
Hurwitz's unawareness of deeper layers.
T

That last thing you said.

I remember a review in Fanfare where he gave his criteria for a
superior performance of Bruckner's 6th. He was reviewing the
Lopez-Cobos on Telarc. I remember thinking how shallow it was. Also,
he once dismissed a recording of a VW symphony (Slatkin, I think)
because of the double clash from the cymbal player...something that
wouldn't really bother anyone but a percussionist.
--
Best wishes,

Sacqueboutier
Kalman Rubinson
2005-12-03 15:40:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Recently I've seen a rave review by Hurwitz of the new recording by Eschenbach
on Ondine.
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9481
In this thread the recording has been mentioned once, but I did not find an
opinion about it.
Is this recording something special or just another hype of the day in the
category
American Orchestra + Hurwitz = 10/10 ?
It's pretty nice but nice doesn't cut it. They play it well but it's
kinda superficial. I found the Martinu on that disc a much better
performance. Great sound, btw, in multichannel.

Kal
Alex Panda
2005-12-03 18:32:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Post by Andy Evans
Just wondering if there's a really knockout performance of this. I
grew up with Stokowsky, which is exciting and quite well recorded.
Just listening to Reiner - interesting in many ways but not something
I'd chuck away all other performances for. I'm wondering whether most
of the really good performances of this are "interesting..." or
whether there's a performance that's a revelation in some way. It's a
pretty complex score with a lot of different moods. Is there a
specifically 'Hungarian' way to play it? Reiner sounds more Chicago
than Budapest. Are the inner tensions and mysteries unlocked by a
feel for the Hungarian idiom? What are some of the keys to
interpreting this work? It's hardly a 'showpiece' in terms of mood.
Recently I've seen a rave review by Hurwitz of the new recording by Eschenbach
on Ondine.
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9481
In this thread the recording has been mentioned once, but I did not find an
opinion about it.
Is this recording something special or just another hype of the day in the
category
American Orchestra + Hurwitz = 10/10 ?
It's good, but nowhere near as fine as Kocsis on Hungaroton.
vhorowitz
2005-12-15 15:49:28 UTC
Permalink
Anyone know of a cd issue of the Kubelik/BSO on DG??
They've got a mouthwatering DG Originals set on the website now:

http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/webseries/index.htms?ID=originalmasters&PRODUCT_NR=4775838

but it's not included.
Lawrence Chalmers
2005-12-15 16:03:40 UTC
Permalink
What Did Kubelik record with the BSO besides The Planets, Also Sprach,
CfO, and Mathis der Maler? I'm going to get that Kubelik box. What
reasons did they have not to include at least the last two of the above?
j***@aol.com
2005-12-15 16:26:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Chalmers
What Did Kubelik record with the BSO besides The Planets, Also Sprach,
CfO, and Mathis der Maler? I'm going to get that Kubelik box. What
reasons did they have not to include at least the last two of the above?
Kubelik didn't do those recordings. You're talking about Steinberg, on
DG. Kubelik recorded Ma Vlast and the Bartok CfO in Boston for DG.

--Jeff
Lawrence Chalmers
2005-12-15 18:02:05 UTC
Permalink
OOOOPs - another senior moment...
vhorowitz
2005-12-15 16:28:01 UTC
Permalink
91. Lawrence Chalmers

What Did Kubelik record with the BSO besides The Planets, Also Sprach,
CfO, and Mathis der Maler? I'm going to get that Kubelik box. What
reasons did they have not to include at least the last two of the
above?


I think you're getting confused with William Steinberg on the other
items.
Paul Kimoto
2005-12-16 00:53:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by vhorowitz
Anyone know of a cd issue of the Kubelik/BSO on DG??
It has been available in Japan in the past. There is a current Kubelík
CfO numbered UCCG-3962 on DG; did he do any other CfOs for DG?

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=UCCG-3962
--
Paul Kimoto
This message was originally posted on Usenet in plain text. Any images,
hyperlinks, or the like shown here have been added without my consent,
and may be a violation of international copyright law.
Dave Cook
2005-12-16 01:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Kimoto
It has been available in Japan in the past. There is a current Kubelík
CfO numbered UCCG-3962 on DG; did he do any other CfOs for DG?
Does anyone know what's going to be in the Kubelik Originals box? This
would seem to be a prime candidate.
Post by Paul Kimoto
http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=UCCG-3962
Someone posted this disc on the lossless group. I actually enjoyed the
coupled Martinu PC5 more, the CfO recording was somewhat murky.

No English notes in these Japanese releases, BTW, or at least not in the 2
Japanese edition Universal discs I've bought.

Dave Cook
vhorowitz
2005-12-16 04:43:57 UTC
Permalink
The contents of that DG Kubelik originals box can be seen here:

http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/webseries/index.htms?ID=originalmasters&PRODUCT_NR=4775838

just click track listing.

No Bartok though, too bad.
Michael Schaffer
2005-12-16 05:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by vhorowitz
http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/webseries/index.htms?ID=originalmasters&PRODUCT_NR=4775838
just click track listing.
No Bartok though, too bad.
I like that this box contains Beethoven 1-3 which aren't available
elsewhere at this time except through a complete set available only in
Italy (and through Japanese websites). OK, that isn't much of a hurdle
in these days of internet ordering, but it's also a price
consideration. And I already have Beethoven 7-9 and some of the other
recordings from this box.

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