Beethoven's op 109

[h***@btinternet.com]

I had an fun experience with this sonata today. I was just killing time randomly playing a few recordings of the first movement to see which ones stood out. And of course some of the usual suspects were impressive. There was a very early one from Rudolf Serkin with big strong romatic symphonic gestures. A revealing imaginative one from Ernst Levy. A lovely pastoral one from Kempff live in Japan. A very satisfying light hearted one from Gieseking on EMI. A challenging once from Backhaus, in the mono set (what he was up to with all those last three sonatas is a mystery to me!)

And then I found on my hard drive a real winner - an unpublished concert recording from Elizabeth Leonskaja, in London in 2011. Her way of connecting with the music, her gentle way exuded sincerity, committment, like this music matters to her - I can't explain it better than that. Sne's made a commercial recording, I've not heard it, but I will try to soon. If anyone wants the concert recording, I can let them have it by email. (It also has op 111 and an middle period sonata.)

Anyway, all this got me thinking. What do you think of op 109 - this sonata which in some ways seems so similar to op 111? Any oustanding recent performances on record?

[Bozo]

Post by h***@btinternet.com
Any oustanding recent performances on record?

Igor Levit :

( Odd, just first 2 movs. )

James Rhodes :

( Last mov.)

[HT]

Yesterday I heard Leonskaya live in Frankck's quintet on the radio. Hers was a remarkable performance. I could't say the same of the strings, who were far to meek and made it almost impossible for her to play freely.

Henk

[dk]

Post by h***@btinternet.com
I had an fun experience with this sonata today. I was just killing time randomly playing a few recordings of the first movement to see which ones stood out. And of course some of the usual suspects were impressive. There was a very early one from Rudolf Serkin with big strong romatic symphonic gestures. A revealing imaginative one from Ernst Levy. A lovely pastoral one from Kempff live in Japan. A very satisfying light hearted one from Gieseking on EMI. A challenging once from Backhaus, in the mono set (what he was up to with all those last three sonatas is a mystery to me!)
And then I found on my hard drive a real winner - an unpublished
concert recording from Elizabeth Leonskaja, in London in 2011. Her
way of connecting with the music, her gentle way exuded sincerity,
committment, like this music matters to her - I can't explain it
better than that. Sne's made a commercial recording, I've not
heard it, but I will try to soon. If anyone wants the concert
recording, I can let them have it by email. (It also has op 111
and an middle period sonata.)

Leonskaja is sadly and undeservedly grossly underrated.

Post by h***@btinternet.com
Anyway, all this got me thinking. What do you think of op 109 -
this sonata which in some ways seems so similar to op 111? Any
oustanding recent performances on record?

Valery Afanassiev. You can probably find it on YT, but it may not
be your cup of tea. Honestly, I see no connection between 109, 110
and 111, other than the fact they were composed by the same person.
They are very different creatures.

dk

[Herman]

Post by dk
Honestly, I see no connection between 109, 110
and 111, other than the fact they were composed by the same person.
They are very different creatures.

Correspondence does not equal identical. The connections between the three last sonatas are, of course, myriad. I'll just mention the words trill, fugue and variation. But that doesn't mean they are identical, otherwise LvB would be a lesser composer and these sonatas not a pinnacle of the genre. Check out Kinderman and Rosen.

By some coincidence I have been listening to Richter in Leipzig a lot, lately.

[Sol L. Siegel]

Post by h***@btinternet.com
What do you think of op 109 - this sonata which in some ways seems
so similar to op 111? Any oustanding recent performances on record?

Does Paul Lewis still count as recent? I got it last month, part of
a buying binge, and, as with the rest of his cycle (I now lack only
Op. 31) I'm liking almost everything I'm hearing: probing without
pushing his discoveries in our faces.

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

[h***@btinternet.com]

I enjoyed Afanassiev a lot, so thanks for that suggestion. I didn't care for James Rhodes at all, it just didn't seem at all natural sounding. I listened to the recording, not the youtube. It's intersting how Ernst Levy is just as interventionist as James Rhodes or Andrew Rangell (Rangell's really dreadful IMO) - but somehow Levy sounds fresh and intelligent and revealing to me.

The big new find for me, apart from Leonskaja, was a live one from Annie Fischer, recorded in 1957 and released by INA (a French audiovisual archive.) She's so good at timbres, at marking each voice with its own timbre. I thought it was great.

I said that op 109 was like op 111 just beacause you have a boisterous first half, and a set of variations in the second half, with some more dreamy music. In fact, that Annie Fischer performance really did make me think of op 111/i when she was playing op 109/ii.

[Bozo]

Well not recent, but as you mentioned Fischer, do hear Feinberg as well despite poor YT sound :

[Bozo]

And perhaps my fav 109, Ashkenzy 80's on Decca.

For recent, Schiff discusses and plays 109 :

http://www.wigmore-hall.org.uk/schiffbeethovenlecturerecitals

[Bozo]

Post by Bozo
http://www.wigmore-hall.org.uk/schiffbeethovenlecturerecitals

Ashkenazy's early Decca recording :

[h***@btinternet.com]

Elisabeth Leonskaja's commercial record of op 109 - 111 at least as good as the London concerts on symphonyshare, well worth getting, I would say.

[Steve Emerson]

No suggestions for the notably recent, but presumably you've heard
Gilels. And Mustonen?

SE.

[Precious Roy]

And Richter's opp. 109 110 111 live in Leipzig? Whatta bonanza.

[t***@gmail.com]

Post by h***@btinternet.com
Anyway, all this got me thinking. What do you think of op 109 - this sonata which in some ways seems so similar to op 111? Any oustanding recent performances on record?

Among many great performances, I would single out Arrau (the version from the 60's, but his most recent remake from the 80's is very good too). I heard Ashkenazy play it beautifully in concert.

TH

[laraine]

In his online Beethoven Sonatas class, Jonathan Biss played the opening of
Op. 109 in a rather pleasant way, not just toccata-ish.

Looks like he has included Op. 109 in his 2007 EMI disc of a few
Beethoven sonatas:

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-digital-booklet/dp/B000WAJI2O/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1422478973&sr=8-15&keywords=Jonathan+Biss


And he's in the process of recording a whole cycle of the Beethoven sonatas
for Onyx Classics, has not yet done Op. 109 again. Something to watch for.

C.

[Peter Lemken]

Post by h***@btinternet.com
I had an fun experience with this sonata today. I was just killing time randomly playing a few recordings of the first movement to see which ones stood out. And of course some of the usual suspects were impressive. There was a very early one from Rudolf Serkin with big strong romatic symphonic gestures. A revealing imaginative one from Ernst Levy. A lovely pastoral one from Kempff live in Japan. A very satisfying light hearted one from Gieseking on EMI. A challenging once from Backhaus, in the mono set (what he was up to with all those last three sonatas is a mystery to me!)
And then I found on my hard drive a real winner - an unpublished concert recording from Elizabeth Leonskaja, in London in 2011. Her way of connecting with the music, her gentle way exuded sincerity, committment, like this music matters to her - I can't explain it better than that. Sne's made a commercial recording, I've not heard it, but I will try to soon. If anyone wants the concert recording, I can let them have it by email. (It also has op 111 and an middle period sonata.)
Anyway, all this got me thinking. What do you think of op 109 - this sonata which in some ways seems so similar to op 111? Any oustanding recent performances on record?

Listen to Valery Afanassiev. He's the only one to follow Beethoven's tempo
directions in the variations.


Peter Lemken
+43-1

[MrBleuvert]

Post by Peter Lemken

Post by h***@btinternet.com
I had an fun experience with this sonata today. I was just killing time randomly playing a few recordings of the first movement to see which ones stood out. And of course some of the usual suspects were impressive. There was a very early one from Rudolf Serkin with big strong romatic symphonic gestures. A revealing imaginative one from Ernst Levy. A lovely pastoral one from Kempff live in Japan. A very satisfying light hearted one from Gieseking on EMI. A challenging once from Backhaus, in the mono set (what he was up to with all those last three sonatas is a mystery to me!)
And then I found on my hard drive a real winner - an unpublished concert recording from Elizabeth Leonskaja, in London in 2011. Her way of connecting with the music, her gentle way exuded sincerity, committment, like this music matters to her - I can't explain it better than that. Sne's made a commercial recording, I've not heard it, but I will try to soon. If anyone wants the concert recording, I can let them have it by email. (It also has op 111 and an middle period sonata.)
Anyway, all this got me thinking. What do you think of op 109 - this sonata which in some ways seems so similar to op 111? Any oustanding recent performances on record?

Listen to Valery Afanassiev. He's the only one to follow Beethoven's tempo
directions in the variations.
Peter Lemken
+43-1
--
Nature abhors crude hacks.

Afanassiev has always been an extremely self-indulgent musician. No doubt sincere, but so ignorant. Go with the early R. Serkin and Leonskaya.

[h***@btinternet.com]

Post by MrBleuvert

Post by Peter Lemken

Post by h***@btinternet.com
I had an fun experience with this sonata today. I was just killing time randomly playing a few recordings of the first movement to see which ones stood out. And of course some of the usual suspects were impressive. There was a very early one from Rudolf Serkin with big strong romatic symphonic gestures. A revealing imaginative one from Ernst Levy. A lovely pastoral one from Kempff live in Japan. A very satisfying light hearted one from Gieseking on EMI. A challenging once from Backhaus, in the mono set (what he was up to with all those last three sonatas is a mystery to me!)
And then I found on my hard drive a real winner - an unpublished concert recording from Elizabeth Leonskaja, in London in 2011. Her way of connecting with the music, her gentle way exuded sincerity, committment, like this music matters to her - I can't explain it better than that. Sne's made a commercial recording, I've not heard it, but I will try to soon. If anyone wants the concert recording, I can let them have it by email. (It also has op 111 and an middle period sonata.)
Anyway, all this got me thinking. What do you think of op 109 - this sonata which in some ways seems so similar to op 111? Any oustanding recent performances on record?

Listen to Valery Afanassiev. He's the only one to follow Beethoven's tempo
directions in the variations.
Peter Lemken
+43-1
--
Nature abhors crude hacks.

Afanassiev has always been an extremely self-indulgent musician. No doubt sincere, but so ignorant. Go with the early R. Serkin and Leonskaya.

Do you think the 109 is self indulgent? It didn't come across that way to me.

[Lionel Tacchini]

Post by h***@btinternet.com

Post by MrBleuvert
Afanassiev has always been an extremely self-indulgent musician. No
doubt sincere, but so ignorant. Go with the early R. Serkin and
Leonskaya.

Do you think the 109 is self indulgent? It didn't come across that way to me.

It's not what he said so I think it's not what he thinks but this is
just a thought.

[Lionel Tacchini]

Post by h***@btinternet.com
Do you think the 109 is self indulgent? It didn't come across that way to me.

Creators are self indulgent. Ants are not.

[dk]

Post by MrBleuvert

Post by Peter Lemken

I had an fun experience with this sonata today. I was just killing time randomly playing a few recordings of the first movement to see which ones stood out. And of course some of the usual suspects were impressive. There was a very early one from Rudolf Serkin with big strong romantic symphonic gestures. A revealing imaginative one from Ernst Levy. A lovely pastoral one from Kempff live in Japan. A very satisfying light hearted one from Gieseking on EMI. A challenging once from Backhaus, in the mono set (what he was up to with all those last three sonatas is a mystery to me!)
And then I found on my hard drive a real winner - an
unpublished concert recording from Elizabeth Leonskaja,
in London in 2011. Her way of connecting with the music,
her gentle way exuded sincerity, commitment, like this
music matters to her - I can't explain it better than that.
She's made a commercial recording, I've not heard it, but I
will try to soon. If anyone wants the concert recording, I
can let them have it by email. (It also has op 111 and an
middle period sonata.)
Anyway, all this got me thinking. What do you think of
op 109 - this sonata which in some ways seems so similar
to op 111? Any outstanding recent performances on record?

Listen to Valery Afanassiev. He's the only one to
follow Beethoven's tempo directions in the variations.

Afanassiev has always been an extremely self-indulgent
musician. No doubt sincere, but so ignorant. Go with the
early R. Serkin and Leonskaja.

Leonskaja's op. 109 is good, though not in the same league
as Schnabel or Ernst Levy.

Serkin will scorch your ears.

dk

[h***@btinternet.com]

Why did Schnabel record 109 twice? Was he not satisfied with the first one?

I agree about Levy by the way, I listen to him a lot.

Try to get the live 109 from Leonskaja on symphonyshare.

[h***@btinternet.com]

Another very good one, more than very good, I found on the newly relaunched BNL label, is by Olivier Gardon. There were some tremendous things on BNL and it's good to have them all again.

I payed Richter in Leipzig again too. I'm not sure what to think of it.

[Lionel Tacchini]

Post by h***@btinternet.com
I payed Richter in Leipzig again too. I'm not sure what to think of it.

You've been fooled.

[c***@gmail.com]

Post by h***@btinternet.com
Another very good one, more than very good, I found on the newly relaunched BNL label, is by Olivier Gardon. There were some tremendous things on BNL and it's good to have them all again.
I payed Richter in Leipzig again too. I'm not sure what to think of it.

What else do you recommend on the BNL label? (Not interested in the organ music.) Most of the performers are unknown to me, but my eye was drawn to the disc of Melartin piano music. Have you listened to Lili Kraus's op. 109 (either in the Rarissimes set or the big box)? I think it's a remarkable performance (so also the accompanying "Waldstein") and wish there were more of her solo Beethoven. Happy to ditto the praise for Leonskaja and Levy as well.

AC

[Frank Berger]

Post by c***@gmail.com

Post by h***@btinternet.com
Another very good one, more than very good, I found on the newly relaunched BNL label, is by Olivier Gardon. There were some tremendous things on BNL and it's good to have them all again.
I payed Richter in Leipzig again too. I'm not sure what to think of it.

What else do you recommend on the BNL label? (Not interested in the organ music.) Most of the performers are unknown to me, but my eye was drawn to the disc of Melartin piano music. Have you listened to Lili Kraus's op. 109 (either in the Rarissimes set or the big box)? I think it's a remarkable performance (so also the accompanying "Waldstein") and wish there were more of her solo Beethoven. Happy to ditto the praise for Leonskaja and Levy as well.
AC

Definitely, the Natan Brand disk, if it's actually available again.
Back in 2010, his wife Lori posted here that she had copies available
and I got it from her. Perhaps she still has some.

***@gmail.com

Funny that the Palexa CD was labeled volume 1.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

[c***@gmail.com]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by c***@gmail.com

Post by h***@btinternet.com
Another very good one, more than very good, I found on the newly relaunched BNL label, is by Olivier Gardon. There were some tremendous things on BNL and it's good to have them all again.
I payed Richter in Leipzig again too. I'm not sure what to think of it.

What else do you recommend on the BNL label? (Not interested in the organ music.) Most of the performers are unknown to me, but my eye was drawn to the disc of Melartin piano music. Have you listened to Lili Kraus's op. 109 (either in the Rarissimes set or the big box)? I think it's a remarkable performance (so also the accompanying "Waldstein") and wish there were more of her solo Beethoven. Happy to ditto the praise for Leonskaja and Levy as well.
AC

Definitely, the Natan Brand disk, if it's actually available again.
Back in 2010, his wife Lori posted here that she had copies available
and I got it from her. Perhaps she still has some.
Funny that the Palexa CD was labeled volume 1.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

Thanks, Frank. I have the Brand set, but in any case it is not including in the current listings that I perused at MDT and Presto. Aside from the Melartin, I noted a CD devoted to the fascinating composer Juan del Encina. As I said, most of the performers are unknown to me, although there are a couple of Paganini VCs played by Kantorow.

AC

[h***@btinternet.com]

Well some of the organ things are very good, Coudurier's Louis Marchand for example. Have you tried a BNL pianist Tom put me on to - Fabienne Jacquinot?

[John Wiser]

Post by h***@btinternet.com
Well some of the organ things are very good, Coudurier's Louis Marchand for example.
Have you tried a BNL pianist Tom put me on to - Fabienne Jacquinot?

Tried her some time ago, around 1952. Very capable, much brio little charm..
http://www.amazon.com/Milhaud-Orchestra-Concertino-Philharmonia-Fistoulari/dp/B00FR83QII

jdw

[arri bachrach]

Post by John Wiser

Post by h***@btinternet.com
Well some of the organ things are very good, Coudurier's Louis Marchand for example.
Have you tried a BNL pianist Tom put me on to - Fabienne Jacquinot?

Tried her some time ago, around 1952. Very capable, much brio little charm..
http://www.amazon.com/Milhaud-Orchestra-Concertino-Philharmonia-Fistoulari/dp/B00FR83QII
jdw

sorry to read above, so lets try Kempff, the mono post war recordings. Grfeat musician

AB

[c***@gmail.com]

Post by arri bachrach

Post by John Wiser

Post by h***@btinternet.com
Well some of the organ things are very good, Coudurier's Louis Marchand for example.
Have you tried a BNL pianist Tom put me on to - Fabienne Jacquinot?

Tried her some time ago, around 1952. Very capable, much brio little charm..
http://www.amazon.com/Milhaud-Orchestra-Concertino-Philharmonia-Fistoulari/dp/B00FR83QII
jdw

sorry to read above, so lets try Kempff, the mono post war recordings. Grfeat musician
AB

Kempff plays Milhaud & Honegger? That brought a smile to my lips :-)

AC

[h***@btinternet.com]

A good one on symphonyshare is Fou Ts'Ong, a Westminster LP - very "deeply felt" as they say . . . it's certainly worth taking. Now and then he's come up with some really special, imaginative, bold things, and I think this is pne of them. I'd forgotten about Edwin Fischer's recording of it, which I'll play tonight.

[arri bachrach]

Post by c***@gmail.com

Post by arri bachrach

Post by John Wiser

Post by h***@btinternet.com
Well some of the organ things are very good, Coudurier's Louis Marchand for example.
Have you tried a BNL pianist Tom put me on to - Fabienne Jacquinot?

Tried her some time ago, around 1952. Very capable, much brio little charm..
http://www.amazon.com/Milhaud-Orchestra-Concertino-Philharmonia-Fistoulari/dp/B00FR83QII
jdw

sorry to read above, so lets try Kempff, the mono post war recordings. Grfeat musician
AB

Kempff plays Milhaud & Honegger? That brought a smile to my lips :-)
AC

why not:-) was referring to LvB eppes 109!

[g***@gmail.com]

Post by h***@btinternet.com
I had an fun experience with this sonata today. I was just killing time randomly playing a few recordings of the first movement to see which ones stood out. And of course some of the usual suspects were impressive. There was a very early one from Rudolf Serkin with big strong romatic symphonic gestures. A revealing imaginative one from Ernst Levy. A lovely pastoral one from Kempff live in Japan. A very satisfying light hearted one from Gieseking on EMI. A challenging once from Backhaus, in the mono set (what he was up to with all those last three sonatas is a mystery to me!)
And then I found on my hard drive a real winner - an unpublished concert recording from Elizabeth Leonskaja, in London in 2011. Her way of connecting with the music, her gentle way exuded sincerity, committment, like this music matters to her - I can't explain it better than that. Sne's made a commercial recording, I've not heard it, but I will try to soon. If anyone wants the concert recording, I can let them have it by email. (It also has op 111 and an middle period sonata.)
Anyway, all this got me thinking. What do you think of op 109 - this sonata which in some ways seems so similar to op 111? Any oustanding recent performances on record?

Is this an "...apt analogy for the effect of Op. 109's effect and final variation"?:

https://books.google.com/books?id=DyWgCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=%22what+is+really+essential+in+things,+in+man,+in+the+world%22&source=bl&ots=oJgmNvDlrT&sig=quSw7ytqP6bg8rifnNgx0oCuUko&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjgnaer7OXYAhVCImMKHb99Bj4Q6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22what%20is%20really%20essential%20in%20things%2C%20in%20man%2C%20in%20the%20world%22&f=false

[g***@gmail.com]

Post by h***@btinternet.com
I had an fun experience with this sonata today. I was just killing time randomly playing a few recordings of the first movement to see which ones stood out. And of course some of the usual suspects were impressive. There was a very early one from Rudolf Serkin with big strong romatic symphonic gestures. A revealing imaginative one from Ernst Levy. A lovely pastoral one from Kempff live in Japan. A very satisfying light hearted one from Gieseking on EMI. A challenging once from Backhaus, in the mono set (what he was up to with all those last three sonatas is a mystery to me!)
And then I found on my hard drive a real winner - an unpublished concert recording from Elizabeth Leonskaja, in London in 2011. Her way of connecting with the music, her gentle way exuded sincerity, committment, like this music matters to her - I can't explain it better than that. Sne's made a commercial recording, I've not heard it, but I will try to soon. If anyone wants the concert recording, I can let them have it by email. (It also has op 111 and an middle period sonata.)
Anyway, all this got me thinking. What do you think of op 109 - this sonata which in some ways seems so similar to op 111? Any oustanding recent performances on record?

Is this an "...apt analogy for the effect of Op. 109's finale and of its final variation."?:

https://books.google.com/books?id=DyWgCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=%22what+is+really+essential+in+things,+in+man,+in+the+world%22&source=bl&ots=oJgmNvDlrT&sig=quSw7ytqP6bg8rifnNgx0oCuUko&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjgnaer7OXYAhVCImMKHb99Bj4Q6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22what%20is%20really%20essential%20in%20things%2C%20in%20man%2C%20in%20the%20world%22&f=false

[Da TM]

Samuil Feinberg plays it damn well

[dk]

Post by h***@btinternet.com
Anyway, all this got me thinking. What do you think of op 109 -
this sonata which in some ways seems so similar to op 111?
Any outstanding recent performances on record?

Schnabel.

dk

[Charles]

Post by h***@btinternet.com
I had an fun experience with this sonata today. I was just killing time randomly playing a few recordings of the first movement to see which ones stood out. And of course some of the usual suspects were impressive. There was a very early one from Rudolf Serkin with big strong romatic symphonic gestures. A revealing imaginative one from Ernst Levy. A lovely pastoral one from Kempff live in Japan. A very satisfying light hearted one from Gieseking on EMI. A challenging once from Backhaus, in the mono set (what he was up to with all those last three sonatas is a mystery to me!)
And then I found on my hard drive a real winner - an unpublished concert recording from Elizabeth Leonskaja, in London in 2011. Her way of connecting with the music, her gentle way exuded sincerity, committment, like this music matters to her - I can't explain it better than that. Sne's made a commercial recording, I've not heard it, but I will try to soon. If anyone wants the concert recording, I can let them have it by email. (It also has op 111 and an middle period sonata.)
Anyway, all this got me thinking. What do you think of op 109 - this sonata which in some ways seems so similar to op 111? Any oustanding recent performances on record?

Op. 109 is the one late Beethoven sonata that I keep coming back to, although my dissertation was on op. 111 and I dearly love every note of op. 110. I have performed all three sonatas numerous times, and re-studied them often, always looking at the score as though for the first time. Every articulation, every dynamic, using autographs and Henle. For me, the old Stephen Bishop LP recording of op. 109 is tops (re-issued I'm sure and probably his re-make is as good, though I haven't heard it). And then I would list Serkin's earliest one, and of course there is much to love about Schnabel. For me, these are essential, but I have (and haven't yet heard) perhaps two dozen more recent ones. (I'm not sure why I am such a compulsive collector!)

[dk]

Post by Charles
For me, the old Stephen Bishop LP recording of op. 109 is tops

dk

[h***@btinternet.com]

Post by dk

Post by Charles
For me, the old Stephen Bishop LP recording of op. 109 is tops

http://youtu.be/oq3hpDA_Lrs
http://youtu.be/d4ZCa7yeHgw
http://youtu.be/cO8vaBtoXjE
dk

Would someone mind ripping the sound from those youtubes and letting me have them? I can't play the videos in the UK.

[Dan Koren]

Post by h***@btinternet.com

Post by dk

Post by Charles
For me, the old Stephen Bishop LP recording of op. 109 is tops

http://youtu.be/oq3hpDA_Lrs
http://youtu.be/d4ZCa7yeHgw
http://youtu.be/cO8vaBtoXjE

Would someone mind ripping the sound from those
youtubes and letting me have them? I can't play the
videos in the UK.

Did you manage to get them? If not I can upload them
for you.

dk