Discussion:
Eroica Recommendation?
(too old to reply)
Ferris92
2007-04-05 03:45:19 UTC
Permalink
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.

I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
gperkins151
2007-04-05 04:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
Szell/Cleveland
William Sommerwerck
2007-04-05 10:39:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by gperkins151
Szell/Cleveland
Excellent recommendation. (This recording was Epic's first stereo release.)

Don't overlook Lenny with the NYPO. If there was ever a recording that
demonstrated Leonard Bernstein was a conductor for the ages, it's the first
two movements of the Eroica. The first movement is searingly intense, the
second an agonized funeral march. (The third and fourth are so sloppy, it's
hard to believe they're from the same conductor and orchestra.)
Matthew B. Tepper
2007-04-05 04:28:23 UTC
Permalink
"Ferris92" <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:1175744719.786692.20990
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono 1955
version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it to be an
unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has opened up and
I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around here it seems that
Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and dragging.
But you vill get used to it. Or you did. ;--)
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
Can't get much farther away than Jordi Savall/Le Concert des Nations.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Richard S. Sandmeyer
2007-04-05 05:04:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:1175744719.786692.20990
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono 1955
version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it to be an
unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has opened up and
I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around here it seems that
Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and dragging.
But you vill get used to it. Or you did. ;--)
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
Can't get much farther away than Jordi Savall/Le Concert des Nations.
I haven't heard the Savall, but Scherchen's Eroica on Westminster (DG)
must be one of the fastest recordings. As to the Klemperer, I haven't
listened to his mono recording in a long time, but I believe his stereo
one (which I have) is slower yet. Bernstein (NYPO) and Szell
(Cleveland) are my own first choices for this work, though I have and
enjoy many others.
--
Rich Sandmeyer
rich dot sand at verizon dot net
fl.traverso
2007-04-05 09:05:47 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 5, 6:04 am, "Richard S. Sandmeyer"
Post by Richard S. Sandmeyer
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Can't get much farther away than Jordi Savall/Le Concert des Nations.
I haven't heard the Savall, but Scherchen's Eroica on Westminster (DG)
must be one of the fastest recordings.
Wait until Diego Fasolis gets to record it. :)
Bob Harper
2007-04-05 06:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:1175744719.786692.20990
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono 1955
version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it to be an
unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has opened up and
I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around here it seems that
Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and dragging.
But you vill get used to it. Or you did. ;--)
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
Can't get much farther away than Jordi Savall/Le Concert des Nations.
Ugh.

Bob Harper
EM
2007-04-05 11:25:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Ferris92
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
Can't get much farther away than Jordi Savall/Le Concert des Nations.
Or Zinman.

EM
Don Rice
2007-04-05 04:43:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
You must visit Eric Grunin's "Eroica" project site.
http://www.grunin.com/eroica/
--
<to email me please put a "1" between the "don" and the "rice">
d***@aol.com
2007-04-05 04:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
I don't know about counterpoint, but four performances that never
cease to do it for me are (and in no particular order):

Erich Kleiber, Vienna Philharmonic (Decca)
Erich Kleiber, Concertgebouw (Decca)
Leonard Bernstein, New York Philharmonic (originally CBS, later Sony,
now . . .)
Munch, Boston (RCA)

-david gable
Bob Harper
2007-04-05 06:35:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
I don't know about counterpoint, but four performances that never
Erich Kleiber, Vienna Philharmonic (Decca)
Erich Kleiber, Concertgebouw (Decca)
Leonard Bernstein, New York Philharmonic (originally CBS, later Sony,
now . . .)
Munch, Boston (RCA)
-david gable
All excellent choices. Add Matacic/CPO (Supraphon) and the live Wand/NDR
(RCA).

Bob Harper
makropulos
2007-04-05 10:34:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by d***@aol.com
Erich Kleiber, Vienna Philharmonic (Decca)
Erich Kleiber, Concertgebouw (Decca)
Leonard Bernstein, New York Philharmonic (originally CBS, later Sony,
now . . .)
Munch, Boston (RCA)
-david gable
All excellent choices. Add Matacic/CPO (Supraphon) and the live Wand/NDR
(RCA).
Bob Harper
Agreed. And I'd add Mackerras/RLPO (EMI/Classics for pleasure) to that
list as well - these are all fleet-footed alternatives to Klemperer.
Larry Rinkel
2007-04-05 12:24:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
I don't know about counterpoint...
Not even in the second movement fugato? Lenny with the NYPhil is a favorite
of mine, as is Toscanini NBC from Oct. 1939. As a "counterpoint," Savall's
HIP version is as dramatically opposed to Klemperer's as you can get.
d***@aol.com
2007-04-05 16:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Rinkel
Not even in the second movement fugato? Lenny with the NYPhil is a favorite
of mine
Agreed. Bernstein's projection of that fugato, itself one of the
seven wonders of the world, is not to be believed. I really can't
imagine greater intensity. Beethoven gets 99% of the credit, though.

-david gable
A. Brain
2007-04-05 21:31:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Agreed. Bernstein's projection of that fugato, itself one of the
seven wonders of the world, is not to be believed. I really can't
imagine greater intensity. Beethoven gets 99% of the credit, though.
The Bernstein is available cheap at Amazon
in the "Bernstein Century" edition, one of
several aborted series by Sony.

Curiously, with all the stuff Sony re-releases
repeatedly, it seems that many Bernstein
recordings have been neglected, including
some of the highly regarded "Royal Edition"
items. A couple of Haydn masses, The
Creation, LvB's Missa Solemnis, etc.

But you can still find some of these
Royal Edition items in stores.

And I thought that DGG had re-released
all the Bernstein stuff from the mid to
late '80s but they haven't, for example,
re-released a Bruckner 9 and a few
other items.
--
A. Brain

Remove NOSPAM for email.
Matthew B. Tepper
2007-04-05 23:55:12 UTC
Permalink
And I thought that DGG had re-released all the Bernstein stuff from the
mid to late '80s but they haven't, for example, re-released a Bruckner 9
and a few other items.
Or that mid-1970s all-Beethoven Amnesty International concert: Bavarian
Radio Symphony Orchestra, Leonore #3, PC #4 with Arrau, Symphony #5.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Michael Schaffer
2007-04-06 00:46:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by A. Brain
Post by d***@aol.com
Agreed. Bernstein's projection of that fugato, itself one of the
seven wonders of the world, is not to be believed. I really can't
imagine greater intensity. Beethoven gets 99% of the credit, though.
The Bernstein is available cheap at Amazon
in the "Bernstein Century" edition, one of
several aborted series by Sony.
Curiously, with all the stuff Sony re-releases
repeatedly, it seems that many Bernstein
recordings have been neglected, including
some of the highly regarded "Royal Edition"
items. A couple of Haydn masses, The
Creation, LvB's Missa Solemnis, etc.
But you can still find some of these
Royal Edition items in stores.
And I thought that DGG had re-released
all the Bernstein stuff from the mid to
late '80s but they haven't, for example,
re-released a Bruckner 9 and a few
other items.
That's available on video now, as are some of those other items.
Post by A. Brain
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
A. Brain
2007-04-06 07:21:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
Post by A. Brain
And I thought that DGG had re-released
all the Bernstein stuff from the mid to
late '80s but they haven't, for example,
re-released a Bruckner 9 and a few
other items.
That's available on video now, as are some of those other items.
Well, back to Sony, in addition to the Beethoven
and Haydn sets not apparently seen since the
"Royal Edition", did they ever re-release the
somewhat celebrated recording of Verdi's
"Falstaff"?
--
A. Brain

Remove NOSPAM for email.
Matthew B. Tepper
2007-04-06 14:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Schaffer
And I thought that DGG had re-released all the Bernstein stuff from the
mid to late '80s but they haven't, for example, re-released a Bruckner 9
and a few other items.
That's available on video now, as are some of those other items.
Well, back to Sony, in addition to the Beethoven and Haydn sets not
apparently seen since the "Royal Edition", did they ever re-release the
somewhat celebrated recording of Verdi's "Falstaff"?
M2K 42535.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Josep Vilanova
2007-04-05 18:04:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Erich Kleiber, Vienna Philharmonic (Decca)
Erich Kleiber, Concertgebouw (Decca)
Leonard Bernstein, New York Philharmonic (originally CBS, later Sony,
now . . .)
Munch, Boston (RCA)
-david gable
I quite agree with Kleiber. My problem with the Concertgebouw one is
the sound of that oboe. So shrill it sounds like a whistle. Maybe it's
my transfer.

j
Nautilus
2007-04-05 04:54:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferris92
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
Gardiner, Brueggen.
e***@gmail.com
2007-04-05 07:39:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
http://grunin.com/eroica/?page=recommended.htm

The 'opposite' of Klemperer's emphatic and slow would be Savall or
Gielen, both light & fast. But there's also heavy & fast: Scherchen
1958, which is a favorite of many.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Wal
2007-04-05 09:04:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
http://grunin.com/eroica/?page=recommended.htm
The 'opposite' of Klemperer's emphatic and slow would be Savall or
Gielen, both light & fast. But there's also heavy & fast: Scherchen
1958, which is a favorite of many.
Regards,
Eric Gruninwww.grunin.com/eroica
Either:
Toscanini/NBCSO 1949
or
Leibowitz/RPO
MELMOTH
2007-04-05 09:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Ce cher mammifère du nom de Ferris92 nous susurrait, le jeudi
05/04/2007, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales quand
même, et dans le message
Post by Ferris92
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
Monteux/Concertgebouw (better that Monteux/LSO)...
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin ; et celui qui
accroît sa science, accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1-18]
Melmoth - souffrant
Curtis Croulet
2007-04-05 15:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH
(better that Monteux/LSO)...
There's one with the VPO. Where is this one available?
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
d***@aol.com
2007-04-05 16:17:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH
Monteux/Concertgebouw (better that Monteux/LSO)...
I think you mean "better than Monteux/VPO": 2, 4, 5, & 7 were
recorded with the LSO, 1, 3, 6, & 8 with the VPO. In any case,
Monteux/VPO is a bit of a disaster, the opening movement too slow and
weirdly mannered. Oddly enough, the two movements I can't stand in
this set of 8 recordings are the first movements of 3 and 5. Was
Monteux oddly self-conscious in the face of these two famous
movements? Have to listen to Monteux/Concertgebouw again, which I
recall liking.

-david gable
e***@gmail.com
2007-04-05 20:45:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH
Ce cher mammifère du nom de Ferris92 nous susurrait, le jeudi
05/04/2007, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales quand
même, et dans le message
Post by Ferris92
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
Monteux/Concertgebouw (better that Monteux/LSO)...
I think you meant "(better than Monteux/VPO)"

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
MELMOTH
2007-04-06 07:45:14 UTC
Permalink
Ce cher mammifère du nom de ***@gmail.com nous susurrait, le
jeudi 05/04/2007, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales
quand même, et dans le message
Post by e***@gmail.com
I think you meant "(better than Monteux/VPO)"
I did.
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin ; et celui qui
accroît sa science, accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1-18]
Melmoth - souffrant
Gerard
2007-04-05 13:31:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
I second all the recommendations of Savall.
Simon Roberts
2007-04-05 13:49:37 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Ferris92
says...
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
But not as "heavy and dragging" as the stereo remake (which I actually prefer).
Post by Ferris92
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
Fast, with modern instruments:

Scherchen/Westminster-DG, Paavo Jarvi/RCA, Gielen/EMI, Norrington/Haenssler,
Zinman/Arte Nova

Not particularly fast, but livelier than Klemperer, with modern instruments:

Bernstein/NYPO/Sony; Munch/RCA

Fast, with period instruments:

Savall/Astree (or whatever label it's on now)

Slow i (but rather different from Klemperer), fast everything else, period
instruments:

Bruggen/Philips

Simon
Dan Amodeo
2007-04-05 15:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
Savall/Astree (or whatever label it's on now)
Unfortunately, that marvellous CD seems to be out of print.
Paul Goldstein
2007-04-05 14:18:02 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Ferris92
says...
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
Toscanini/NBC 1953.
O
2007-04-05 14:57:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
says...
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
Toscanini/NBC 1953.
Ditto.

-Owen
John Thomas
2007-04-05 14:20:51 UTC
Permalink
Since nobody else has mentioned it (I think) add Osmo Vanska on Bis -
outstanding sound and dynamic range on top of a brisk but not rushed
(cf. Gardiner) performance. And another vote for Gunter Wand. If price
is an issue get Zinman. When you come down to it the Eroica has been
recorded so many times by so many conductors you could spend the rest of
your life choosing among versions. It's hard - though not impossible -
to find a really bad performance of this work.

-John Thomas
Heck51
2007-04-05 16:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferris92
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?>>
Toscanini/NBC/1949
Reiner/CSO/1954
von Matacic/CzechPO/1959

are all really excellent...
d***@aol.com
2007-04-05 16:08:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heck51
Toscanini/NBC/1949
Reiner/CSO/1954
von Matacic/CzechPO/1959
I keep forgetting to mention Von Matacic: it is a wonder.

How many Toscanini recordings are there?

-david gable
ansermetniac
2007-04-05 16:10:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by Heck51
Toscanini/NBC/1949
Reiner/CSO/1954
von Matacic/CzechPO/1959
I keep forgetting to mention Von Matacic: it is a wonder.
How many Toscanini recordings are there?
-david gable
Released officially by RCA

1939 Live
1949 Studio
1953 Live

Abbedd


Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood.
- HL Mencken
Don Rice
2007-04-05 19:33:53 UTC
Permalink
***@aol.com wrote:
<snipped>
Post by d***@aol.com
How many Toscanini recordings are there?
-david gable
I have three - 1939, 1949 and 1953. All with the NBC symphony, on cds,
very satisfying, each in its own way. (No others are listed in Mortimer
Frank's discography.)
I also enjoyed MTT's recent performance on his "Keeping Score" series
which I think is available on a dvd as well as sacd if anyone is
interested. Others I like are Matacic (I only have the lp), Savall,
Reiner and Zinman.
Don
--
<to email me please put a "1" between the "don" and the "rice">
Matthew B. Tepper
2007-04-05 20:02:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Rice
Post by d***@aol.com
How many Toscanini recordings are there?
I have three - 1939, 1949 and 1953. All with the NBC symphony, on cds,
very satisfying, each in its own way. (No others are listed in Mortimer
Frank's discography.)
You have the three commercial recordings. There are at least a few
unofficial issues: 3 December 1938 on Music and Arts CD-1134; 1 September
1945 on Music and Arts CD-753; and 20 April 1949 on Pollioni POL 116.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
d***@aol.com
2007-04-06 02:47:01 UTC
Permalink
You have the three commercial recordings [of the Eroica with Toscanini]. There are at least a few
unofficial issues: 3 December 1938 on Music and Arts CD-1134; 1 September
1945 on Music and Arts CD-753; and 20 April 1949 on Pollioni POL 116.
And, out of all of these, if you could only keep one?

-david gable
Matthew B. Tepper
2007-04-06 03:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
You have the three commercial recordings [of the Eroica with Toscanini].
There are at least a few unofficial issues: 3 December 1938 on Music
and Arts CD-1134; 1 September 1945 on Music and Arts CD-753; and 20
April 1949 on Pollioni POL 116.
And, out of all of these, if you could only keep one?
Hard to give up 1938, but I'd pick 1953.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Don Rice
2007-04-06 06:30:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
You have the three commercial recordings [of the Eroica with Toscanini]. There are at least a few
unofficial issues: 3 December 1938 on Music and Arts CD-1134; 1 September
1945 on Music and Arts CD-753; and 20 April 1949 on Pollioni POL 116.
And, out of all of these, if you could only keep one?
-david gable
The 1953, somewhat better sound than the others with resulting greater
detail and impact (tho that Naxos 1939 is pretty intense.)
Don
--
<to email me please put a "1" between the "don" and the "rice">
d***@aol.com
2007-04-05 22:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Rice
I have three - 1939, 1949 and 1953. All with the NBC symphony, on cds,
very satisfying, each in its own way. (No others are listed in Mortimer
Frank's discography.)
I'm not sure I've ever heard '49.

-david gable
O
2007-04-06 13:29:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by Don Rice
I have three - 1939, 1949 and 1953. All with the NBC symphony, on cds,
very satisfying, each in its own way. (No others are listed in Mortimer
Frank's discography.)
I'm not sure I've ever heard '49.
'49 was released as the first Toscanini Eroica on CD, and was also as
part of the Beethoven Symphony box on the RCA Gold Seal (white box)
releases. The '53 was also in the white box collection, but released
later in the series.

-Owen
Curtis Croulet
2007-04-06 16:30:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by O
'49 was released as the first Toscanini Eroica on CD,
Which is an interesting release, because it has some really horrible splices
that are not present in the "Toscanini Collection" issue.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
O
2007-04-06 18:10:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curtis Croulet
Post by O
'49 was released as the first Toscanini Eroica on CD,
Which is an interesting release, because it has some really horrible splices
that are not present in the "Toscanini Collection" issue.
When I bought it, I originally thought I was buying the '53 (hey,
Toscanini and NBC Symphony - I wasn't aware of the '49 recording), and
I thought "how come the CD isn't as good as the LP? Isn't CD supposed
to sound better?"

-Owen

e***@gmail.com
2007-04-05 20:53:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by Heck51
Toscanini/NBC/1949
Reiner/CSO/1954
von Matacic/CzechPO/1959
I keep forgetting to mention Von Matacic: it is a wonder.
How many Toscanini recordings are there?
-david gable
Three 'official' ones (RCA), two more from broadcasts (M&A), three
more floating around that I know of. See grunin.com/eroica/?
page=list.asp for details.

By the way, my discography has a typo here, it's 1949 April 20, not
1945 April 20.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
r***@gmail.com
2007-04-05 16:52:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heck51
Post by Ferris92
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?>>
Toscanini/NBC/1949
Reiner/CSO/1954
von Matacic/CzechPO/1959
are all really excellent...
May I suggest that you get the stereo Klemperer: the orchestral layout
with divided violins adds a lot to the experience and the performance
is of the same ilk. A more lively classic account with divided violins
is Boult on Vanguard, a wonderful performance although no one here has
cited it. Monteux typically divided the violins, but I don't have his
Eroice. Of more modern recordings I'd suggest Harnoncourt. I have
not listened to Bernstein NYPO in years, and when I did chose to buy
Barbirolli/BBCSO instead: it's slower than Klemperer's so not what you
are looking for.
Richard Simnett
p***@yahoo.com
2007-04-05 16:18:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
I second the recommendations for Scherchen on Westminster and
Bernstein/NY/Sony.

Then, after you've heard those, and are ready for yet another
approach, slow, but very different from Klemperer, try Furtwangler's
12/8/52 BPO or live '53 VPO performances.

Barry
Dan Amodeo
2007-04-05 16:29:44 UTC
Permalink
I'm no expert, but the Eroica is probably my favorite of Beethoven's symphonies.

My favorite recordings of it are Scherchen/Westminster, Bruggen/Philips, and
Savall. I like them all very much, and I listen to each as much as the others. I
have trouble comparing Scherchen with anyone else; he just sounds different to me,
so I can't say whether I like his performance more or less than the other two.
Doesn't matter, though, because I wouldn't want to be without any of these three.
I tried to decide which of the other two I liked better -- I had bought a copy of
Scherchen for my daughter-in-law, and Iwanted to get her a "normal" recording of
this symphony, too. I listened again and again to Bruggen and Savall, but the best
I could do is to come up with a slight suspician that I might like Bruggen just a
trifle more. Doesn't matter here either, though, because they sound different
enough to me so that I want to listen to both. I decided to buy her copies of both
Bruggen and Savall in addition to Scxherchen, but I discovered that Savall seems
to be out of print. I hope it comes back.

Before I started listening to those three, I got a copy of Dohnanyi. I had found a
note in my files that I had heard it on the radio years ago and loved it, so I
bought a copy a few months ago and enjoyed listening to it very much several
times. I have listened to it once since I started listed to the other three. I
still like it, but not as much as the others. I don't know yet whether I will be
able to continue to enjoy this CD. I don't know Klemperer, but I suspect he's
much, much closer to Dohnanyi than to any of the other three.

I listened to parts of Bernstein/NYPO/Sony several times, but I can't get into it.
I don't know why. I just put it on a few minutes ago, and I noticed that many of
the loud notes didn't sound good to me. I don't remember hearing anyone else say
anythig bad about this CD, though, and many like it, so I guess it's just me.
Also, I'm so happy with my top three that I'm not very motivated to find something
else.

Dan Amodeo
William Sommerwerck
2007-04-05 16:42:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Amodeo
I listened to parts of Bernstein/NYPO/Sony several times,
but I can't get into it. I don't know why. I just put it on a few
minutes ago, and I noticed that many of the loud notes didn't
sound good to me.
???

I have an import of the Bernstein/NYPO coming; I'll listen to it and give an
expert opinion of "the loud notes". <grin>
s***@nospamprovide.net
2007-04-05 16:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
Toscanini \ NBC 1939
Furtwangler \ VPO 1944
Barbirolli \ BBC 1967
Bernstein \ VPO 1978
Wand \ NDR (live) 1990
rkhalona
2007-04-05 17:59:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
The more things change, the more they stay the same. I had a similar
experience to yours, except I was quite taken by Klemperer's approach
from the beginning (granitic, monumental, tense) in his mono
recording. The stereo recording (which others prefer) I found flaccid
and much less tense.

The one recording of the Eroica that I would take to the proverbial
desert island continues to be Erich Kleiber's with the Vienna
Philharmonic. Despite the substandard sound and poor balancing (I
have remarked many times that the horns are almost inaudible in
places) the performance packs a punch that I have not heard any other
conductor match. It has an electricity from beginning to end that I
continue to find irresistible. I do not listen to it too often, but
every time I do it is a festive occasion and I marvel at the
achievement.
Several people (Mike Gray, Tony Movshon, etc.) have told the story
here that this performance was recorded originally in *stereo* by
Decca, but that the tapes were destroyed. This qualifies as one of
the gramophone's greatest crimes.

RK
Bob Harper
2007-04-05 18:47:52 UTC
Permalink
rkhalona wrote:
(snip)
Post by rkhalona
The one recording of the Eroica that I would take to the proverbial
desert island continues to be Erich Kleiber's with the Vienna
Philharmonic. Despite the substandard sound and poor balancing (I
have remarked many times that the horns are almost inaudible in
places) the performance packs a punch that I have not heard any other
conductor match. It has an electricity from beginning to end that I
continue to find irresistible. I do not listen to it too often, but
every time I do it is a festive occasion and I marvel at the
achievement.
Several people (Mike Gray, Tony Movshon, etc.) have told the story
here that this performance was recorded originally in *stereo* by
Decca, but that the tapes were destroyed. This qualifies as one of
the gramophone's greatest crimes.
RK
I don't know whether I could limit myself to *one* Eroica, even on a
desert island, but if I had to this one would be a top contender. I had
forgot the story about the existence of a stereo version, and agree with
your characterization of its loss. Would that Carlos had given us this
work above all the others he didn't record! :)

Bob Harper
rkhalona
2007-04-05 18:56:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
(snip)
Post by rkhalona
The one recording of the Eroica that I would take to the proverbial
desert island continues to be Erich Kleiber's with the Vienna
Philharmonic. Despite the substandard sound and poor balancing (I
have remarked many times that the horns are almost inaudible in
places) the performance packs a punch that I have not heard any other
conductor match. It has an electricity from beginning to end that I
continue to find irresistible. I do not listen to it too often, but
every time I do it is a festive occasion and I marvel at the
achievement.
Several people (Mike Gray, Tony Movshon, etc.) have told the story
here that this performance was recorded originally in *stereo* by
Decca, but that the tapes were destroyed. This qualifies as one of
the gramophone's greatest crimes.
RK
I don't know whether I could limit myself to *one* Eroica, even on a
desert island, but if I had to this one would be a top contender. I had
forgot the story about the existence of a stereo version, and agree with
your characterization of its loss. Would that Carlos had given us this
work above all the others he didn't record! :)
I bet someone in this NG that Carlos would record the Eroica before
passing. I would have been happy to win that bet, but it was not to
be.

RK
Bob
2007-04-05 19:50:24 UTC
Permalink
p***@yahoo.com
2007-04-05 19:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by rkhalona
The one recording of the Eroica that I would take to the proverbial
desert island continues to be Erich Kleiber's with the Vienna
Philharmonic. Despite the substandard sound and poor balancing (I
have remarked many times that the horns are almost inaudible in
places) the performance packs a punch that I have not heard any other
conductor match. It has an electricity from beginning to end that I
continue to find irresistible. I do not listen to it too often, but
every time I do it is a festive occasion and I marvel at the
achievement.
Several people (Mike Gray, Tony Movshon, etc.) have told the story
here that this performance was recorded originally in *stereo* by
Decca, but that the tapes were destroyed. This qualifies as one of
the gramophone's greatest crimes.
I'm pretty sure I've got this recording at home. It's been ages since
I listened to it, but I'll have to pull it out and give it a whirl. I
recall liking it, but not as much as you obviously do. And with so
much stiff competition on my shelves for the piece, it just hasn't
made it into my CD player in a long time. Of course, if my opinion
remains the same as it was, this wouldn't be the first time we've
disagreed on a performance of the Eroica :).

That Dec. 8, '52 Furtwangler performance (as opposed to the one from
one night earlier) remains my desert island Eroica.

Barry
MW
2007-04-05 20:11:40 UTC
Permalink
Here are a few that haven't been mentioned:

Bruggen/Oa18C live at the Concertgebouw. Arkiv sells this as a CD-R.
I'd like to see if it is better than the dub I made from my laserdisc.

van Beinum/COA on DVD as part of the Q-Disc box. It's everything you
could want, except for it not being on CD.

Giulini/LAPO. If you can handle slow, it is a beauty.

Coates/some London orchestra. You want excitement?

My personal CD enigma is the live Wand. I bought it, found it dull
and sold it. I heard it much later, thought it really fine, bought
it. A few years later, it is dull and faceless again. Proposed moral
of the story: some recordings only reveal their best face on better
equipment.
Matthew B. Tepper
2007-04-05 20:16:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by MW
Giulini/LAPO. If you can handle slow, it is a beauty.
His first-ever performance of the piece, on tour with the L.A. Philharmonic
in San Jose of all places, was even more beautiful. I was there.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
p***@yahoo.com
2007-04-05 20:33:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by MW
Giulini/LAPO. If you can handle slow, it is a beauty.
His first-ever performance of the piece, on tour with the L.A. Philharmonic
in San Jose of all places, was even more beautiful. I was there.
--
DG really needs to put those LA Beethoven and Schumann recordings out
on a two-disc set. Or they could expand it into a boxed set and
include some of the other recordings he made there as well.
Matthew B. Tepper
2007-04-06 03:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@yahoo.com
letters to be typed
Post by MW
Giulini/LAPO. If you can handle slow, it is a beauty.
His first-ever performance of the piece, on tour with the L.A.
Philharmonic in San Jose of all places, was even more beautiful. I was
there.
DG really needs to put those LA Beethoven and Schumann recordings out
on a two-disc set. Or they could expand it into a boxed set and include
some of the other recordings he made there as well.
Nah, Universal Music seems to have some sort of grudge against American
orchestras, even those whose recordings they have in their back catalogue.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Michael Schaffer
2007-04-06 00:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by MW
Giulini/LAPO. If you can handle slow, it is a beauty.
His first-ever performance of the piece, on tour with the L.A. Philharmonic
in San Jose of all places, was even more beautiful. I was there.
I understand that he had conducted the Eroica before, but then set it
aside for many years and only revisited it with the LAP after
rethinking his approach to the music completely.

In any case, that's one of my favorite recordings, too. Fantastic
music making.
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Bob Harper
2007-04-05 20:42:30 UTC
Permalink
MW wrote:
(snip)
Post by MW
van Beinum/COA on DVD as part of the Q-Disc box. It's everything you
could want, except for it not being on CD.
I'd forgotten about this one, but yes, it's fabulous!

Bob Harper
(snip)
e***@gmail.com
2007-04-05 20:57:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by MW
Bruggen/Oa18C live at the Concertgebouw. Arkiv sells this as a CD-R.
I'd like to see if it is better than the dub I made from my laserdisc.
I think you meant Parnassus sells this as a DVD-R. I got mine in a
Chinese pressing via eBay.
Post by MW
Coates/some London orchestra. You want excitement?
It's the LSO, performing anonymously for contractual reasons.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
p***@yahoo.com
2007-04-05 20:35:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@yahoo.com
I'm pretty sure I've got this recording at home. It's been ages since
I listened to it, but I'll have to pull it out and give it a whirl. I
recall liking it, but not as much as you obviously do.
I must have traded in. Couldn't find it. This isn't the first time
I've regretted getting rid of a recording hastily; and I'm sure it
won't be the last.
rkhalona
2007-04-05 20:52:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@yahoo.com
Post by p***@yahoo.com
I'm pretty sure I've got this recording at home. It's been ages since
I listened to it, but I'll have to pull it out and give it a whirl. I
recall liking it, but not as much as you obviously do.
I must have traded in. Couldn't find it. This isn't the first time
I've regretted getting rid of a recording hastily; and I'm sure it
won't be the last.
Buy it again, that will ensure you will find the old one.

RK
Larry Rinkel
2007-04-06 11:52:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@yahoo.com
That Dec. 8, '52 Furtwangler performance (as opposed to the one from
one night earlier) remains my desert island Eroica.
Barry
I have looked all over for that recording and have never been able to find
it. Ideas, anybody?
p***@yahoo.com
2007-04-06 11:56:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Rinkel
Post by p***@yahoo.com
That Dec. 8, '52 Furtwangler performance (as opposed to the one from
one night earlier) remains my desert island Eroica.
Barry
I have looked all over for that recording and have never been able to find
it. Ideas, anybody?
Are you sure I didn't give a copy of it to you at some point? Maybe
that was just the wartime 9th. Email me if you're interested. It's
been out at least twice on Tahra and one or two times on Music & Arts,
but those releases may all be out of print.

Barry
v***@hotmail.com
2007-04-06 12:25:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Rinkel
Post by p***@yahoo.com
That Dec. 8, '52 Furtwangler performance (as opposed to the one from
one night earlier) remains my desert island Eroica.
Barry
I have looked all over for that recording and have never been able to find
it. Ideas, anybody?
The recording seems to be still available on Tahra as part of the 4 CD
set "Wilhelm Furtwängler - Légendaires concerts d'après guerre", which
contains some other famous performances (such as the 1954 Lucerne
Beethoven Ninth Symphony). I actually bought my copy not too long ago
from amazon.fr and I think the set is still available there.
Verena
p***@yahoo.com
2007-04-06 14:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@hotmail.com
Post by Larry Rinkel
Post by p***@yahoo.com
That Dec. 8, '52 Furtwangler performance (as opposed to the one from
one night earlier) remains my desert island Eroica.
Barry
I have looked all over for that recording and have never been able to find
it. Ideas, anybody?
The recording seems to be still available on Tahra as part of the 4 CD
set "Wilhelm Furtwängler - Légendaires concerts d'après guerre", which
contains some other famous performances (such as the 1954 Lucerne
Beethoven Ninth Symphony). I actually bought my copy not too long ago
from amazon.fr and I think the set is still available there.
Verena
That's a great set to have. I got mine when it was first released and
assumed it was long out-of-print; but maybe that's just the case in
the U.S. It's got some of Furtwangler's best post-war performances.
v***@hotmail.com
2007-04-06 14:45:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@yahoo.com
Post by v***@hotmail.com
Post by Larry Rinkel
Post by p***@yahoo.com
That Dec. 8, '52 Furtwangler performance (as opposed to the one from
one night earlier) remains my desert island Eroica.
Barry
I have looked all over for that recording and have never been able to find
it. Ideas, anybody?
The recording seems to be still available on Tahra as part of the 4 CD
set "Wilhelm Furtwängler - Légendaires concerts d'après guerre", which
contains some other famous performances (such as the 1954 Lucerne
Beethoven Ninth Symphony). I actually bought my copy not too long ago
from amazon.fr and I think the set is still available there.
Verena
That's a great set to have. I got mine when it was first released and
assumed it was long out-of-print; but maybe that's just the case in
the U.S. It's got some of Furtwangler's best post-war performances.- Zitierten Text ausblenden -
- Zitierten Text anzeigen -
I think the set - or part of the set - was re-released by Tahra
several times in different guises. I also think that it contains some
really great performances, best of all perhaps the Eroica.
p***@yahoo.com
2007-04-06 14:53:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@hotmail.com
Post by p***@yahoo.com
Post by v***@hotmail.com
The recording seems to be still available on Tahra as part of the 4 CD
set "Wilhelm Furtwängler - Légendaires concerts d'après guerre", which
contains some other famous performances (such as the 1954 Lucerne
Beethoven Ninth Symphony). I actually bought my copy not too long ago
from amazon.fr and I think the set is still available there.
Verena
That's a great set to have. I got mine when it was first released and
assumed it was long out-of-print; but maybe that's just the case in
the U.S. It's got some of Furtwangler's best post-war performances.- Zitierten Text ausblenden -
- Zitierten Text anzeigen -
I think the set - or part of the set - was re-released by Tahra
several times in different guises. I also think that it contains some
really great performances, best of all perhaps the Eroica.- Hide quoted text -
The Pastoral from that set is also probably my overall favorite by
Furtwangler. The studio EMI recording is sublime for the first two
movements, but lacks the power that Furt's live performances pack in
the later movements. The BPO performance from '54 in this set gets it
right from start to finish.
d***@aol.com
2007-04-05 22:12:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by rkhalona
The more things change, the more they stay the same. I had a similar
experience to yours, except I was quite taken by Klemperer's approach
from the beginning (granitic, monumental, tense) in his mono
recording. The stereo recording (which others prefer) I found flaccid
and much less tense.
I prefer the monaural recording, too, but what I really wish I had was
a recording from earlier in his career, a recording with the firebrand
of Klemperer's first decades. (Stravinsky somewhere remarks that
Klemperer was as notorious for his fast tempi early in his career as
he was for his slow ones at the end.)

-david gable
rkhalona
2007-04-05 22:15:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by rkhalona
The more things change, the more they stay the same. I had a similar
experience to yours, except I was quite taken by Klemperer's approach
from the beginning (granitic, monumental, tense) in his mono
recording. The stereo recording (which others prefer) I found flaccid
and much less tense.
I prefer the monaural recording, too, but what I really wish I had was
a recording from earlier in his career, a recording with the firebrand
of Klemperer's first decades. (Stravinsky somewhere remarks that
Klemperer was as notorious for his fast tempi early in his career as
he was for his slow ones at the end.)
You have two Beethoven 8ths and a Beethoven 1st to choose from. They
have been released on Archiphon, from his Berlin (Kroll Opera) years.

RK
d***@aol.com
2007-04-05 22:19:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by rkhalona
Post by d***@aol.com
I prefer the monaural recording, too, but what I really wish I had was
a recording from earlier in his career, a recording with the firebrand
of Klemperer's first decades. (Stravinsky somewhere remarks that
Klemperer was as notorious for his fast tempi early in his career as
he was for his slow ones at the end.)
You have two Beethoven 8ths and a Beethoven 1st to choose from. They
have been released on Archiphon, from his Berlin (Kroll Opera) years.
Thanks, Ramon. I'll be there. There's also that wild Hungarian-
language Fidelio from circa 1949.

-david gable
Bob Harper
2007-04-05 23:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by rkhalona
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by rkhalona
The more things change, the more they stay the same. I had a similar
experience to yours, except I was quite taken by Klemperer's approach
from the beginning (granitic, monumental, tense) in his mono
recording. The stereo recording (which others prefer) I found flaccid
and much less tense.
I prefer the monaural recording, too, but what I really wish I had was
a recording from earlier in his career, a recording with the firebrand
of Klemperer's first decades. (Stravinsky somewhere remarks that
Klemperer was as notorious for his fast tempi early in his career as
he was for his slow ones at the end.)
You have two Beethoven 8ths and a Beethoven 1st to choose from. They
have been released on Archiphon, from his Berlin (Kroll Opera) years.
RK
You should try to hear the Testament recording from 1957 with the Royal
Danish Orchestra. Not super-fast, but a bit quicker than the mono studio
version, considerably faster than the 1959 stereo recording, and more
full of fire than either.

Bob Harper
Roland van Gaalen
2007-04-05 21:22:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
My advice, with due respect to all:

ignore all the recommendations given here and buy any random recording of
the piece.
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl
rkhalona
2007-04-05 21:56:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland van Gaalen
ignore all the recommendations given here and buy any random recording of
the piece.
Bizarre.

RK
Roland van Gaalen
2007-04-05 22:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by rkhalona
Post by Roland van Gaalen
ignore all the recommendations given here and buy any random recording of
the piece.
Bizarre.
RK
Not in my opinion, Mr. Khalona.

In my experience, this is a very good search strategy with respect to the
the Eroica.

And Bruckner symphonies, and organ music.

It is possible to take this forum too seriously.
--
r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl
Amsterdam
rkhalona
2007-04-05 22:56:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland van Gaalen
Post by rkhalona
Post by Roland van Gaalen
ignore all the recommendations given here and buy any random recording of
the piece.
Bizarre.
RK
Not in my opinion, Mr. Khalona.
In my experience, this is a very good search strategy with respect to the
the Eroica.
And Bruckner symphonies, and organ music.
It is possible to take this forum too seriously.
No, you can't be serious at all, and it's a bad joke at that. I think
the original poster was intelligent enough to ask a serious question
and will filter the responses to decide for himself which ones are
worth pursuing according to his search criteria. You have told him to
pick at random. He doesn't need to ask anyone for that.

RK
rkhalona
2007-04-05 22:56:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland van Gaalen
Post by rkhalona
Post by Roland van Gaalen
ignore all the recommendations given here and buy any random recording of
the piece.
Bizarre.
RK
Not in my opinion, Mr. Khalona.
In my experience, this is a very good search strategy with respect to the
the Eroica.
And Bruckner symphonies, and organ music.
It is possible to take this forum too seriously.
No, you can't be serious at all, and it's a bad joke at that. I think
the original poster was intelligent enough to ask a serious question
and will filter the responses to decide for himself which ones are
worth pursuing according to his search criteria. You have told him to
pick at random. He doesn't need to ask anyone for that.

RK
Roland van Gaalen
2007-04-05 23:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by rkhalona
Post by Roland van Gaalen
Post by rkhalona
Post by Roland van Gaalen
ignore all the recommendations given here and buy any random recording of
the piece.
Bizarre.
RK
Not in my opinion, Mr. Khalona.
In my experience, this is a very good search strategy with respect to the
the Eroica.
And Bruckner symphonies, and organ music.
It is possible to take this forum too seriously.
No, you can't be serious at all, and it's a bad joke at that. I think
the original poster was intelligent enough to ask a serious question
and will filter the responses to decide for himself which ones are
worth pursuing according to his search criteria. You have told him to
pick at random. He doesn't need to ask anyone for that.
For the record: I am quite serious.
--
Roland van Gaalen
r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl
Amsterdam
EM
2007-04-05 23:59:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland van Gaalen
For the record
Any recommendations?
;-)

EM
Gerard
2007-04-06 14:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland van Gaalen
It is possible to take this forum too seriously.
Sure.
This concerns your posts as well.
Roland van Gaalen
2007-04-06 16:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Post by Roland van Gaalen
It is possible to take this forum too seriously.
Sure.
This concerns your posts as well.
We agree
e***@gmail.com
2007-04-06 07:11:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland van Gaalen
ignore all the recommendations given here and buy any random recording of
the piece.
If ten people took this advice:

2 will have an excellent performance.
7 will have a worthwhile performance.
1 will have a piece of crap.

Why not steer the quest away from the crap?

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Roland van Gaalen
2007-04-06 13:16:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Roland van Gaalen
ignore all the recommendations given here and buy any random recording of
the piece.
2 will have an excellent performance.
7 will have a worthwhile performance.
1 will have a piece of crap.
Why not steer the quest away from the crap?
Good one!

But I actually bought that particular recording -- in spite of my own
criteria and biases -- after reading strong recommendations in this forum.

Calling it "crap" is going too far.

Initially I even thought it was very good, but then I changed my mind.

Does this mean I should not have bought it?

I may change my mind again.
--
Roland van Gaalen
r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl
Amsterdam
Dan Amodeo
2007-04-06 15:18:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland van Gaalen
ignore all the recommendations given here and buy any random recording of
the piece.
Later, he wrote,
Post by Roland van Gaalen
But I actually bought that particular recording -- in spite of my own criteria
and biases -- after reading strong recommendations in this forum.
Initially I even thought it was very good, but then I changed my mind.
Does this mean I should not have bought it?
I may change my mind again.
Roland, I think you have just pointed out why other people (including me)
disagree with your original suggestion. You have to use your head when you follow
a recommendation from this newsgroup. Look at who is making the recommendation.
How often does he or she and you like and dislike the same recordings? If you
don't remember, it's easy to search to see what (if anything) this person has
recommended before. If the person gives reasons for why he or she likes or
dislikes a recording, give that some serious thought to try to figure out to what
extent that would be significant for you. Maybe do a web search also on this CD
and/or look at comments on Amazon.com and/or listen to parts of the recording on
Amazon or at a CD store or at your public library. You are of course always taking
a chance that you will buy something you don't like, but life is a gamble. If you
don't like it, you can give it to a friend, or maybe an enemy. The point of using
recommendations from this newsgroup is not to eliminate the possibility of buying
something you don't like, but to reduce the likelihood of doing that.

It just so happens that I have bought a fair number of CDs in the last few months,
and most of them I have enjoyed very much. Some I just love. My selection was
almost always based partly on recommendations from this newsgroup. Several of them
I wouldn't even have known about if I hadn't read about them here. There are one
or two or three of my recently purchased CDs that I will never listen to again,
but wasting my money on them was worth it considering how many very enjoyable CDs
I got.

Dan Amodeo
Feuillade
2007-04-06 16:09:25 UTC
Permalink
Did I miss it, or did no one mention Barbirolli's 1967 "Eroica" with
the BBC Symphony (recently put out by Dutton)? I like that one a
great deal.

Tom Moran
e***@gmail.com
2007-04-06 17:27:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland van Gaalen
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Roland van Gaalen
ignore all the recommendations given here and buy any random recording of
the piece.
2 will have an excellent performance.
7 will have a worthwhile performance.
1 will have a piece of crap.
Why not steer the quest away from the crap?
Good one!
But I actually bought that particular recording -- in spite of my own
criteria and biases -- after reading strong recommendations in this forum.
Ah, now I understand. No, nothing recommended in this very long thread
is even close to 'crap'. I mean the REAL bad ones, such as Kakhidze
(also found under several pseudonyms) and Titov (on Sony's superbudget
line).

Those are obscure conductors, but there are a handful of terribly
boring performances by famous maestros. Most are mercifully out of
print, but not all:

Asahina 1989, 1996, 2000 (both)
Furtwangler 1952 (RAI)
Fricsay ('Great Conductors' set)
Hickox (recently reissued)
Konwitschny 1960
Loughran (recently reissued)
Mehta
Rescigno
Tiboris
Tintner
Vonk (St. Louis)

These are strictly for fanatics, or perhaps those who don't actually
like Beethoven but rather need a reliable sleeping pill.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Simon Roberts
2007-04-06 13:34:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Roland van Gaalen
ignore all the recommendations given here and buy any random recording of
the piece.
2 will have an excellent performance.
7 will have a worthwhile performance.
1 will have a piece of crap.
Why not steer the quest away from the crap?
Would any combination of the ten agree which were excellent, which were merely
worthwhile, and which, if any, was a piece of crap?

Simon
e***@gmail.com
2007-04-06 17:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Roland van Gaalen
ignore all the recommendations given here and buy any random recording of
the piece.
2 will have an excellent performance.
7 will have a worthwhile performance.
1 will have a piece of crap.
Why not steer the quest away from the crap?
Would any combination of the ten agree which were excellent, which were merely
worthwhile, and which, if any, was a piece of crap?
I believe so. I may not like caviar, and you may hate fois gras, but
eveyone agrees that a rotten egg is rotten.

See www.grunin.com/eroica/?page=recommended.htm for details.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Econotron
2007-04-05 23:50:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ferris92
My first recording of Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was Klemperer's mono
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
Cluytens/BPO.
ML
Todd Schurk
2007-04-06 00:03:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Econotron
Post by Ferris92
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
Cluytens/BPO.
ML
I'll just throw in my own favorite (hard to find-but it can be
downloaded from Operashare) ,and that is the live Szell from May '70
(his last concert in Cleveland) which was recorded several days after
the Kent State shootings. Szell asks for a moment of silence to
remember those who perished, and the funeral march that came out of
the moment (Szell's most intense rendering by far-and his slowest as
well by far) is wrenching. TS
Bob Harper
2007-04-06 01:13:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by Econotron
Post by Ferris92
1955 version now on EMI classics. When I originally got it I found it
to be an unapproachable edifice, but slowly, with some effort, it has
opened up and I've grown to like it a lot. From what I've read around
here it seems that Kleperer's version is seen as somewhat heavy and
dragging.
I'm looking now to invest in another version. What might be a good
counterpoint to Otto?
Cluytens/BPO.
ML
I'll just throw in my own favorite (hard to find-but it can be
downloaded from Operashare) ,and that is the live Szell from May '70
(his last concert in Cleveland) which was recorded several days after
the Kent State shootings. Szell asks for a moment of silence to
remember those who perished, and the funeral march that came out of
the moment (Szell's most intense rendering by far-and his slowest as
well by far) is wrenching. TS
Yes; a very great performance. I'm glad it was available for download.

Bob Harper
e***@gmail.com
2007-04-06 07:14:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
I'll just throw in my own favorite (hard to find-but it can be
downloaded from Operashare) ,and that is the live Szell from May '70
(his last concert in Cleveland) which was recorded several days after
the Kent State shootings. Szell asks for a moment of silence to
remember those who perished, and the funeral march that came out of
the moment (Szell's most intense rendering by far-and his slowest as
well by far) is wrenching. TS
I agree that it's superior to the CBS and Orfeo versions. Are there
others around?

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
Todd Schurk
2007-04-06 16:02:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Todd Schurk
I'll just throw in my own favorite (hard to find-but it can be
downloaded from Operashare) ,and that is the live Szell from May '70
(his last concert in Cleveland) which was recorded several days after
the Kent State shootings. Szell asks for a moment of silence to
remember those who perished, and the funeral march that came out of
the moment (Szell's most intense rendering by far-and his slowest as
well by far) is wrenching. TS
I agree that it's superior to the CBS and Orfeo versions. Are there
others around?
Regards,
Eric Gruninwww.grunin.com/eroica
Eric...you mention an Orfeo Szell Eroica? I only know of the Cleveland/
Sony '57,Czech/Sony'63 (from Salzburg-recorded by ORF), and the 2
airchecks from '67 & '70. Those are the available Szell Eroicas
afaik...Todd S.
Bob Harper
2007-04-06 16:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Todd Schurk
I'll just throw in my own favorite (hard to find-but it can be
downloaded from Operashare) ,and that is the live Szell from May '70
(his last concert in Cleveland) which was recorded several days after
the Kent State shootings. Szell asks for a moment of silence to
remember those who perished, and the funeral march that came out of
the moment (Szell's most intense rendering by far-and his slowest as
well by far) is wrenching. TS
I agree that it's superior to the CBS and Orfeo versions. Are there
others around?
Regards,
Eric Gruninwww.grunin.com/eroica
Eric...you mention an Orfeo Szell Eroica? I only know of the Cleveland/
Sony '57,Czech/Sony'63 (from Salzburg-recorded by ORF), and the 2
airchecks from '67 & '70. Those are the available Szell Eroicas
afaik...Todd S.
I think Eric had a momentary (and rare!) brain cramp; the Orfeo disc is
the wonderful concert of Egmont, Piano Concerto #3 w/Gilels, and one of
the greatest ever performances of the *Fifth* Symphony. An essential
disc for anyone who cares about great music-making.

Bob Harper
e***@gmail.com
2007-04-06 17:45:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Schurk
Post by e***@gmail.com
Post by Todd Schurk
I'll just throw in my own favorite (hard to find-but it can be
downloaded from Operashare) ,and that is the live Szell from May '70
(his last concert in Cleveland) which was recorded several days after
the Kent State shootings. Szell asks for a moment of silence to
remember those who perished, and the funeral march that came out of
the moment (Szell's most intense rendering by far-and his slowest as
well by far) is wrenching. TS
I agree that it's superior to the CBS and Orfeo versions. Are there
others around?
Regards,
Eric Gruninwww.grunin.com/eroica
Eric...you mention an Orfeo Szell Eroica? I only know of the Cleveland/
Sony '57,Czech/Sony'63 (from Salzburg-recorded by ORF), and the 2
airchecks from '67 & '70. Those are the available Szell Eroicas
afaik...Todd S.
Yes, I was thinking of the Salzburg version -- I remembered the
Festival logo from the cover and mentally lumped it in with the Orfeo
Salzburg series.

And I had forgotten about the 1967 aircheck, which has circulated on a
couple of Japanese CD-R labels. Have you heard it?

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica
J.Martin
2007-04-06 18:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by e***@gmail.com
And I had forgotten about the 1967 aircheck, which has circulated on a
couple of Japanese CD-R labels. Have you heard it?
Regards,
Eric Gruninwww.grunin.com/eroica-
It's excellent, though perhaps not different enough from the studio
recording to warrant purchase, except for those of us who just have to
hear every Szell Eroica we can get our hands on. (Timings, in case
you're interested: 14:52; 16:10; 5:58; 12:08.)

If one were after an "alternative" Szell performance, the 1970
aircheck is perhaps the one to go for, as it has a kind of majesty
that sounds to me different from the 67 or studio (or the Czech one).
I believe the '70 is available for download at OperaShare.

J.
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