Discussion:
'Come scritto'
(too old to reply)
a***@hotmail.com
2005-09-16 04:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Do you have any feelings about it?
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-09-16 05:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
Yeah. It's an Italian phrase.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Paolo Cordone
2005-09-16 23:26:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Yeah. It's an Italian phrase.
Which, by the way, was not written correctly. It should be "com'è scritto"
(shortening of "come è scritto" [how it is written]). Shows you the ignorance
of the OP!

Paolo
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-09-16 23:55:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Yeah. It's an Italian phrase.
Which, by the way, was not written correctly. It should be "com'è
scritto" (shortening of "come è scritto" [how it is written]). Shows you
the ignorance of the OP!
I stand humbled, Maestro.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Margaret Mikulska
2005-09-18 00:19:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Yeah. It's an Italian phrase.
Which, by the way, was not written correctly. It should be "com'è scritto"
(shortening of "come è scritto" [how it is written]). Shows you the ignorance
of the OP!
No, just "come scritto" is correct. "È" is implied, just as in "as
written" instead of "as it is written".

-MM
Paolo Cordone
2005-09-18 12:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Margaret Mikulska
No, just "come scritto" is correct. "È" is implied, just as in "as
written" instead of "as it is written".
Fair play to you for wanting to argue about the Italian language with a
native Italian.

"Come scritto" does not mean anything as the verb ("è" is missing). "Come"
means 'how'. The apostrophe in Italian indicates that a letter has been
dropped because it makes pronunciation awkward. "Come è scritto" has two
vowels one after the other, hence the first is dropped to make it more
flowing. Similarly with things such as "L'ipotesi", which is in fact "La
ipotesi".

In any case, no-one in Italy would ever say "come scritto" implying the "è"
as you claim.

But you are free to not believe me, I know I am right.

Paolo
John Harrington
2005-09-18 16:26:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
Post by Margaret Mikulska
No, just "come scritto" is correct. "È" is implied, just as in "as
written" instead of "as it is written".
Fair play to you for wanting to argue about the Italian language with a
native Italian.
"Come scritto" does not mean anything as the verb ("è" is missing). "Come"
means 'how'. The apostrophe in Italian indicates that a letter has been
dropped because it makes pronunciation awkward. "Come è scritto" has two
vowels one after the other, hence the first is dropped to make it more
flowing. Similarly with things such as "L'ipotesi", which is in fact "La
ipotesi".
In any case, no-one in Italy would ever say "come scritto" implying the "è"
as you claim.
But you are free to not believe me, I know I am right.
Brace yourself, Paolo.


J
Margaret Mikulska
2005-09-28 01:27:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
Post by Margaret Mikulska
No, just "come scritto" is correct. "È" is implied, just as in "as
written" instead of "as it is written".
Fair play to you for wanting to argue about the Italian language with a
native Italian.
Do you mean "good luck"?

It's not the first time I argue with a native speaker about his/her
language. And I'm usually successful at that.
Post by Paolo Cordone
"Come scritto" does not mean anything as the verb ("è" is missing).
Elisions are frequent in certain context. Verbs can be missing; this
happens in many languages. "As soon as possible" does mean something,
although the verb is missing. Analogous expressions means something in
other languages, too.

And if it doesn't mean anything, why do Italians write it?
Post by Paolo Cordone
"Come" means 'how'.
Or "as", "like", depending on the context.
[...]
Post by Paolo Cordone
In any case, no-one in Italy would ever say "come scritto" implying the "è"
as you claim.
But they do write "come scritto" in the sense I had in mind. There are
thousands of examples, such as:
http://www.forafrica.org/modulo_di_registrazione2.htm
or this one from a university:
http://www.dem.uniud.it/i2d/Programma_TA_PN.htm (scroll to "modalità
d'esame").
And thousands more.

-MM
Paolo Cordone
2005-10-03 22:50:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Margaret Mikulska
But they do write "come scritto" in the sense I had in mind. There are
http://www.forafrica.org/modulo_di_registrazione2.htm
http://www.dem.uniud.it/i2d/Programma_TA_PN.htm (scroll to "modalità
d'esame").
And thousands more.
-MM
I don't understand, the instances of 'come scritto' that you mention cannot
stand by themselves, they are followed by a preposition. It's obvious that
you can say 'come scritto nel formulario' or 'come scritto dal famoso
autore'. This has nothing to do with the original meaning of 'come scritto'
as it started this thread. If good old Arturo shouted at me (as an orchestra
player) 'suonalo com'è scritto!', I assure you that he would not (and could
not) say 'suonalo come scritto!' as this makes no sense.
Post by Margaret Mikulska
It's not the first time I argue with a native speaker about his/her
language. And I'm usually successful at that.
Not in this case, I'm afraid.

I suggest we take this privately if you still want to argue, as it is very
much off-topic here.

Arrivederci,

Paolo
v***@yahoo.com
2005-10-04 03:06:46 UTC
Permalink
Paolo is absolutely right, no question about it. Take it from another
Italian.

Vincenzo
Ponty
2005-10-05 02:06:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Paolo is absolutely right, no question about it. Take it from another
Italian.
If being a native speaker of a language were the only qualification
needed, we could consult George Bush (a Yale graduate, at that) on
questions of English usage.

Ponty
Paolo Cordone
2005-10-05 21:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ponty
If being a native speaker of a language were the only qualification
needed, we could consult George Bush
English is an exception in my experience. I know of countless native speakers
whose command of the English grammar is much poorer than any foreigner around
here. It has to do with the way schools teach the language.

On the other hand, Italians go through long and intensive grammar and syntax
classes as part of the curriculum from a relatively early age (same with
Germany, as far as I remember when went to school there, too).

The proof of this deficit is the number of English speakers who cannot master
even simple rules such as differentiating between "it's" and "its" or "there"
and "their". Amazing!

Paolo
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-10-06 00:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
Post by Ponty
If being a native speaker of a language were the only qualification
needed, we could consult George Bush
English is an exception in my experience. I know of countless native
speakers whose command of the English grammar is much poorer than any
foreigner around here. It has to do with the way schools teach the
language.
On the other hand, Italians go through long and intensive grammar and
syntax classes as part of the curriculum from a relatively early age
(same with Germany, as far as I remember when went to school there,
too).
The proof of this deficit is the number of English speakers who cannot
master even simple rules such as differentiating between "it's" and
"its" or "there" and "their". Amazing!
Or worst of all, "you're" and "your"!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
John Harrington
2005-10-06 02:17:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
Post by Ponty
If being a native speaker of a language were the only qualification
needed, we could consult George Bush
English is an exception in my experience. I know of countless native speakers
whose command of the English grammar is much poorer than any foreigner around
here. It has to do with the way schools teach the language.
Isn't there some Italian football star who's famous for his bad
grammar?
Post by Paolo Cordone
The proof of this deficit is the number of English speakers who cannot master
even simple rules such as differentiating between "it's" and "its" or "there"
and "their". Amazing!
It's not a matter of mastery but of carelessness, in my opinion.
There's also "They're"; "you're" and "your"; "are" and "our"; "too" and
"to"; and even, occasionally, "of" and "have". Are there similarly
common and homophonous words in Italian? If not, then maybe your
observation isn't all that amazing.

Also, as I understand it, Italian is a very regular language in terms
of spelling, especially relative to English, where our spellings are
largely historical and not phonetic.


J
m***@cpu-net.net
2005-10-06 12:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Harrington
Post by Paolo Cordone
Post by Ponty
If being a native speaker of a language were the only qualification
needed, we could consult George Bush
English is an exception in my experience. I know of countless native speakers
whose command of the English grammar is much poorer than any foreigner around
here. It has to do with the way schools teach the language.
Isn't there some Italian football star who's famous for his bad
grammar?
Berlusconi (the prime minister) is famous for his occasional bad
grammar, and more often, loopy, unstatesmanlike phrases. Kind of like
Bush, but not as bad.
Post by John Harrington
Post by Paolo Cordone
The proof of this deficit is the number of English speakers who cannot master
even simple rules such as differentiating between "it's" and "its" or "there"
and "their". Amazing!
It's not a matter of mastery but of carelessness, in my opinion.
There's also "They're"; "you're" and "your"; "are" and "our"; "too" and
"to"; and even, occasionally, "of" and "have". Are there similarly
common and homophonous words in Italian? If not, then maybe your
observation isn't all that amazing.
Very very few homophonous words in Italian- nothing like English.
Usually it's a matter of having an apostrophe dropped (like 'come' and
'com'e').
Post by John Harrington
Also, as I understand it, Italian is a very regular language in terms
of spelling, especially relative to English, where our spellings are
largely historical and not phonetic.
J
Right.

Marcello
Paolo Cordone
2005-10-06 20:43:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Harrington
who's famous for his bad
grammar?
That's why he's famous ;-)

Paolo
--
"vina parant animum veneri, nisi plurima sumas"
--Ovid
Paolo Cordone
2005-10-06 20:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Harrington
homophonous words in Italian?
Worse. Words that differ in meaning by only an accent!

Paolo
--
"I have simple tastes. I am always satisfied with the best"
--Oscar Wilde
Paolo Cordone
2005-10-06 20:46:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Harrington
Italian is a very regular language in terms
of spelling, especially relative to English, where our spellings are
largely historical and not phonetic.
Quite right. It still does not explain why most educated foreigners can
manage all those idiosyncrasies, while many natives can't...

Paolo
John Harrington
2005-10-06 21:53:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
most educated foreigners can
manage all those idiosyncrasies...
You're absolutely wrong. In my experience, most educated foreigners,
even those who live and work in the US, have atrocious grammar,
spelling, and understanding of basic English rules. I know this from
professional experience, working as I do in a major s/w firm that hires
PhDs extensively from China, Europe, the FSU, and India. But for one
exception, every one of our technical writing and marcom staff over the
14 years I've been with the company has been hired from the US and
Britain (mostly the US)--this is by necessity. We regularly consider
applications for those positions from high quality people with advanced
degrees who speak ESL, but we usually find in their cover letters and
CVs subtle, and often not-so-subtle, mistakes that an educated native
speaker would not commit (because of the nature of the work we do, most
technical documenters in our company are at the PhD level, and much of
marketing staff is as well). And applicants for jobs where English
competency is not a must typically have rudimentary English skills.

There's much to criticize the US for, but the idea that foreign
educated speakers speak and write our language better than our educated
native speakers is pure bunk.


J
Paolo Cordone
2005-10-07 08:56:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Harrington
You're absolutely wrong.
I can only speak for the situation in the British Isles.

Paolo
John Harrington
2005-10-07 12:59:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
Post by John Harrington
You're absolutely wrong.
I can only speak for the situation in the British Isles.
I can speak of the situation in the US and the British Isles. We have
interviewed and hired candidates from all over the UK, since one of our
major offices is in Cambridge, England.


J
Ponty
2005-10-06 03:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
English is an exception in my experience. I know of countless native speakers
whose command of the English grammar is much poorer than any foreigner around
here. It has to do with the way schools teach the language.
On the other hand, Italians go through long and intensive grammar and syntax
classes as part of the curriculum from a relatively early age (same with
Germany, as far as I remember when went to school there, too).
I would not disagree with you for a moment that Europe in general has
much better language education than the U.S.

However, not all Europeans get high scores--or even passing ones--in
language classes and not all Europeans, even well-educated ones, are
experts in their own language.

Stating that simply being Italian confers on you some special authority
in questions of Italian usage such as this one is scarcely a credible
position.

Ponty
v***@yahoo.com
2005-10-06 03:27:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ponty
Stating that simply being Italian confers on you some special authority
in questions of Italian usage such as this one is scarcely a credible
position.
I think you misunderstand the issue. There is no question of usage.
Yes, Italy is a very regional country with very many dialects and
languages. This one presents no difficulty to anyone who knows _any_
version of Italian. And yes, I am educated (doctorate) and I know
Italian very well, thank you. However, one does not need to show
credentials here. This is the equivalent of a very casual gathering
place. Are you going to ask for identification and fingerprints next?

Vincenzo
Ponty
2005-10-06 04:08:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@yahoo.com
I think you misunderstand the issue. There is no question of usage.
Yes, Italy is a very regional country with very many dialects and
languages. This one presents no difficulty to anyone who knows _any_
version of Italian. And yes, I am educated (doctorate) and I know
Italian very well, thank you. However, one does not need to show
credentials here. This is the equivalent of a very casual gathering
place. Are you going to ask for identification and fingerprints next?
No one asked you for credentials--you put forth the fact that you were
Italian as the reason you were right in this matter. And if, as you say,
any Italian (i.e., even an uneducated one) would be an authority on
this, why bring up your doctorate?

Well, be that as it may, maybe you are right in any event, so let me try
to understand.

If I were writing about a singer who sang a certain passage without
ornamentation, and I wanted to make reference to the 'come scritto'
annotation that one finds in manuscripts, would it be incorrect for me
to write, "L'ha cantato 'come scritto', cioè senza ornamentazione" [He
sang it 'as written', i.e. without ornamentation"]?

Ponty
v***@yahoo.com
2005-10-06 04:26:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ponty
No one asked you for credentials--you put forth the fact that you were
Italian as the reason you were right in this matter.
No. I seconded what Paolo had said and added that I am Italian to
sugggest that I'm intimate with the language. That's a bonus, not the
substance of what I said.

And if, as you say,
Post by Ponty
any Italian (i.e., even an uneducated one) would be an authority on
this, why bring up your doctorate?
Somebody, you I think, mentioned that not everyone learns what is
taught in schools. Obviously not. But I did learn it well.
Post by Ponty
Well, be that as it may, maybe you are right in any event, so let me try
to understand.
If I were writing about a singer who sang a certain passage without
ornamentation, and I wanted to make reference to the 'come scritto'
annotation that one finds in manuscripts, would it be incorrect for me
to write, "L'ha cantato 'come scritto', cioè senza ornamentazione" [He
sang it 'as written', i.e. without ornamentation"]?
Paolo has already explained it: it's com'è scritto. As it is written.
Why do you suspect Paolo of trying to dupe you? Why would he do that?

Vincenzo
Ponty
2005-10-06 05:13:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Paolo has already explained it: it's com'è scritto. As it is written.
Why do you suspect Paolo of trying to dupe you? Why would he do that?
Paolo may have explained it to your satisfaction, but not to mine.
Saying that he is Italian and that therefore it must be so is not very
convincing.

And who said anything about suspecting Paolo of duping anyone? I
understand that he thinks he is right, and he may be, but in order to
determine that, please answer this basic question:

Are you saying that the annotation found in musical manuscripts does not
appear there as "come scritto" but "com'è scritto"?

Ponty
Paolo Cordone
2005-10-06 20:55:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ponty
Are you saying that the annotation found in musical manuscripts does not
appear there as "come scritto" but "com'è scritto"?
You must be careful here, Ponty, as very often Italian terms are mangled by
non-Italian composers. I can't recall how many times I have read, on music
manuscripts, tempo and expression indications that are mispelled, although
they kind of sound right when you pronounce them. British and Scandinavian
composers did that quite often, in my experience. If I can find a concrete
example I'll post it (must look through my CD collection, as I cannot
remember where I saw one recently :-(

So, I would not take annotations in musical manuscripts as a good source,
unless of course these are by Italian composers.

Paolo
John Harrington
2005-10-06 22:57:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
Post by Ponty
Are you saying that the annotation found in musical manuscripts does not
appear there as "come scritto" but "com'è scritto"?
You must be careful here, Ponty, as very often Italian terms are mangled by
non-Italian composers. I can't recall how many times I have read, on music
manuscripts, tempo and expression indications that are mispelled, although
they kind of sound right when you pronounce them. British and Scandinavian
composers did that quite often, in my experience. If I can find a concrete
example I'll post it (must look through my CD collection, as I cannot
remember where I saw one recently :-(
So, I would not take annotations in musical manuscripts as a good source,
unless of course these are by Italian composers.
I was listening to a [piano!] concerto by Rodrigo last night that had
the following tempo indication: "Allegro molto ma pesante". Not
grammatically incorrect, I assume, but I don't understand why there is
a "ma" there rather than an "e". "Ma" seems to imply that there is
something odd or oxymoronic about the combination of allegro molto and
pesante.


J
Paolo Cordone
2005-10-07 09:08:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Harrington
but I don't understand why there is
a "ma" there rather than an "e". "Ma" seems to imply that there is
something odd or oxymoronic about the combination of allegro molto and
pesante.
'Ma' is correct in my view, as Allegro denotes some kind of lightness of
beat, whereas pesante ('heavy') contrasts with this notion. Saying 'Allegro e
pesante' would make little sense to a performer, I guess.

Paolo
John Harrington
2005-10-07 12:53:37 UTC
Permalink
Allegro denotes some kind of lightness of beat
Ah, I never heard that. I thought it was a tempo indication,
regardless of how the beat was accented.


J
Paolo Cordone
2005-10-07 17:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Harrington
Ah, I never heard that. I thought it was a tempo indication,
regardless of how the beat was accented.
Allegro is about 120-168 so hardly *heavy* going.

But if you are in the mood to argue about everything I write you are free to
do so, I have other things to do, so sorry for being rude by stopping this
here.

Paolo
John Harrington
2005-10-07 17:20:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
Post by John Harrington
Ah, I never heard that. I thought it was a tempo indication,
regardless of how the beat was accented.
Allegro is about 120-168 so hardly *heavy* going.
But if you are in the mood to argue about everything I write you are free to
do so, I have other things to do, so sorry for being rude by stopping this
here.
I only dispute things that are wrong.


J
Cocco Bill
2005-10-06 22:04:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ponty
Post by v***@yahoo.com
Paolo has already explained it: it's com'è scritto. As it is written.
Why do you suspect Paolo of trying to dupe you? Why would he do that?
Paolo may have explained it to your satisfaction, but not to mine.
Neither to mine.

"Come scritto" is grammatically correct and _indeed_ very much used.
It's often identical to "come è scritto" or "com'è scritto" (and the
latter is not enclitic as someone said - in fact it sounds different
from "come scritto"). So, it is almost always a matter of personal
choice.
However "Come scritto" has a wider application, since the missing
auxiliary verb is not always at the present tense indicative. Consider
the following: "Un'opera drammatica dovrebbe risultare come (fosse)
scritta da ciascun personaggio, e non dal suo autore." [A drama should
result as (it was) written by every single character, not by its
author].

By the way, a Google search gives:
"come scritto" -> 66500 occurrences
"come è scritto" -> 47000+
"com'è scritto" -> 1000-
Ponty
2005-10-07 05:37:34 UTC
Permalink
"Come scritto" is grammatically correct and indeed very much used.
It's often identical to "come è scritto" or "com'è scritto" (and the
latter is not enclitic as someone said - in fact it sounds different
from "come scritto").
So the question now becomes, is the musical annotation found in
manuscripts written by Italian composers "come scritto" or "come è
scritto"/"com'è scritto"?

Ponty
Paolo Cordone
2005-10-07 09:19:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cocco Bill
"Come scritto" is grammatically correct and _indeed_ very much used.
Nobody ever said it is incorrect or not widely used.
Post by Cocco Bill
It's often identical to "come è scritto" or "com'è scritto"
Yes, it is often identical, but not always. As I have pointed out before, in
my example ("suona il tema com'è scritto [nella partitura]") there is no way
you can tell me that uttering "suona il tema come scritto" makes sense to a
native Italian.

The examples you mention ("Un'opera drammatica dovrebbe risultare come
scritta da ciascun personaggio, e non dal suo autore.") is perfectly fine,
but so what? I can also think of millions of other sentences like that.

Now consider this: "non mi vuole dire comè andata con l'esame". Are you
seriously trying to convince me that it is equivalent to "non mi vuole dire
come andata con l'esame"?

Paolo
Paolo Cordone
2005-10-07 17:07:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
Now consider this: "non mi vuole dire comè andata con l'esame". Are you
seriously trying to convince me that it is equivalent to "non mi vuole dire
come andata con l'esame"?
Oops, of course the first sentence should have been "non mi vuole dire com'è
andata con l'esame"!

Paolo
John Harrington
2005-10-07 17:35:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
Post by Paolo Cordone
Now consider this: "non mi vuole dire comè andata con l'esame". Are you
seriously trying to convince me that it is equivalent to "non mi vuole dire
come andata con l'esame"?
Oops, of course the first sentence should have been "non mi vuole dire com'è
andata con l'esame"!
Aren't you glad we assumed that you merely made a careless error and
not that you "never learned" the difference between this or that?


J
d***@aol.com
2005-10-07 20:04:54 UTC
Permalink
Aren't you glad we assumed that you merely made a careless error and not that you "never learned" the difference between this or that?
Questa o quella per me pari sono.

-david gable
John Harrington
2005-10-09 05:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Aren't you glad we assumed that you merely made a careless error and not that you "never learned" the difference between this or that?
Questa o quella per me pari sono.
Notte e giorno faticar.


J
Ponty
2005-10-09 00:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
Yes, it is often identical, but not always. As I have pointed out before, in
my example ("suona il tema com'è scritto [nella partitura]") there is no way
you can tell me that uttering "suona il tema come scritto" makes sense to a
native Italian.
However, I don't think the point is that "come scritto" would not be
understood if spoken aloud, but whether it is an elliptical yet
otherwise perfectly intelligible expression used in manuscripts
(presumably originally by an Italian composer).

Assuming this is so, might it not be possible for someone to write, not
say, "Suona il tema 'come scritto'" (please note the single quote marks)?

Ponty
d***@aol.com
2005-10-06 04:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Stating that simply being Italian confers on you some special authority in questions of Italian usage such as this one is scarcely a credible position.
It's an entirely credible position. A native speaker knows what is and
isn't normal usage.

-david gable
Ian Pace
2005-10-06 09:23:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by Ponty
Stating that simply being Italian confers on you some special authority
in questions of Italian usage such as this one is scarcely a credible
position.
It's an entirely credible position. A native speaker knows what is and
isn't normal usage.
I think the dispute here revolves around the difference between 'normal' and
'correct' usage. A non-native speaker who knows the language well will know
the by-the-book 'correct' usage of a term, but a native speaker will know
the more informal use that is indeed 'normal' within a community, which may
not necessarily be the same thing at all.

Ian
d***@aol.com
2005-10-06 15:57:53 UTC
Permalink
I think the dispute here revolves around the difference between 'normal' and 'correct' usage.
I don't think that is the subject of the debate. If I understand the
native speakers, they are all saying that "come scritto" is neither
normal casual shorthand for "come è scritto" nor grammatically
correct.

-david gable
Paolo Cordone
2005-10-06 20:49:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ponty
I would not disagree with you for a moment that Europe in general has
much better language education than the U.S.
Except for the UK and Ireland.
Post by Ponty
Stating that simply being Italian confers on you some special authority
in questions of Italian usage such as this one is scarcely a credible
position.
It does to me, as an Italian, because I am confident that any normal
individual who has gone thorough the education system has done plenty of
Italian grammar to keep him/her going. No need for a PhD in Linguistics.

Paolo
a***@aol.com
2005-10-06 22:43:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
Post by Ponty
I would not disagree with you for a moment that Europe in general has
much better language education than the U.S.
Except for the UK and Ireland.
Post by Ponty
Stating that simply being Italian confers on you some special authority
in questions of Italian usage such as this one is scarcely a credible
position.
It does to me, as an Italian, because I am confident that any normal
individual who has gone thorough the education system has done plenty of
Italian grammar to keep him/her going. No need for a PhD in Linguistics.
Paolo
EXCUSE ME! All entrants into the IRISH police force are required to
possess THREE languages: English, Irish Gaelic and one other European
language (French, German, Italian, Spanish) otherwise they will not
make it to interview. Your police force????????

The English police force require no linguistic ability at all, nor ANY
recognisable educational qualification at all either, which probably
explains the English police force. Or as we say in Ireland: "Thick as
pig shit but not as useful."

English, passable Gaelic, fluent Czech (can get by in Moravia as well),
fluent Russian.

Yes, I know the impression of the Irish is that we are a bunch of
hopeless drunks but not so I think. Or not this one and possibly many
others.

Adh Mór Ort,
Alan M. Watkins
Paolo Cordone
2005-10-07 09:13:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
Yes, I know the impression of the Irish is that we are a bunch of
hopeless drunks but not so I think. Or not this one and possibly many
others.
Alan,

Of course, I don't mean that the poor general standard of English here is due
to lack of intellect. I know for a fact that grammar and language teaching in
schools has been relegated to a very small role, whereas in other countries
more focus is given to the technical knowledge of the fundamental building
blocks of language.

Naturally Irish would be (and indeed have been -- just think of all the great
authors) just as good as anybody else, if the curriculum allowed them to be
so.

That's in my experience (I lecture here and when it comes to mark scripts it
always ends up being a disaster :-(

Paolo (Italian naturalised Irish)
Ponty
2005-10-04 03:44:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
I suggest we take this privately if you still want to argue, as it is very
much off-topic here.
No, please don't take it private. It seems very germane and I for one
would like to know the outcome.

Ponty
John Harrington
2005-10-05 19:10:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ponty
Post by Paolo Cordone
I suggest we take this privately if you still want to argue, as it is very
much off-topic here.
No, please don't take it private. It seems very germane and I for one
would like to know the outcome.
I, too. I'm quite enjoying this. ;-)


J
Raymond Hall
2005-10-04 05:19:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
I suggest we take this privately if you still want to argue, as it is very
much off-topic here.
YAWN ......
zzzz .... ZZZZZZZZZZZ

Ray H
Taree
m***@cpu-net.net
2005-10-04 03:53:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Margaret Mikulska
Post by Paolo Cordone
Post by Margaret Mikulska
No, just "come scritto" is correct. "È" is implied, just as in "as
written" instead of "as it is written".
Fair play to you for wanting to argue about the Italian language with a
native Italian.
Do you mean "good luck"?
It's not the first time I argue with a native speaker about his/her
language. And I'm usually successful at that.
Post by Paolo Cordone
"Come scritto" does not mean anything as the verb ("è" is missing).
Elisions are frequent in certain context. Verbs can be missing; this
happens in many languages. "As soon as possible" does mean something,
although the verb is missing. Analogous expressions means something in
other languages, too.
And if it doesn't mean anything, why do Italians write it?
Post by Paolo Cordone
"Come" means 'how'.
Or "as", "like", depending on the context.
[...]
Post by Paolo Cordone
In any case, no-one in Italy would ever say "come scritto" implying the "è"
as you claim.
But they do write "come scritto" in the sense I had in mind. There are
http://www.forafrica.org/modulo_di_registrazione2.htm
http://www.dem.uniud.it/i2d/Programma_TA_PN.htm (scroll to "modalità
d'esame").
And thousands more.
-MM
Unfortunately it doesn't translate so easily. In English you have
'how', 'why', 'what', 'as', 'like', etc. so it's easy to distinguish
'as it is written' from 'how it is written'.
In Italian, 'come' can mean all of those as well as 'com'e' (like it
is, or as it is).
Because of this, an Italian, as Paolo points out, will almost always
understand 'come scritto', spoken in standalone fashion, as 'com'e'
scritto' (the original form of the phrase) rather than as 'how
written'. If 'come' is to take on the 'as' or 'like' meaning, it's
usually done with a qualifying preposition, phrase or additional words
to clarify it's use in that fashion. Otherwise saying or writing 'come
scritto' by itself will be understood as 'com'e' scritto'.
To get a better feel for this, you can contrast 'come scritto' with
'come mai', a true set phrase using the 'how' meaning, where an Italian
would never understand 'come mai' to mean 'com'e' mai' which makes no
sense.

Marcello
a***@aol.com
2005-10-05 20:08:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paolo Cordone
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Yeah. It's an Italian phrase.
Which, by the way, was not written correctly. It should be "com'è scritto"
(shortening of "come è scritto" [how it is written]). Shows you the ignorance
of the OP!
Paolo
However the instruction is written, I can say it is consistently
ignored all over the world every hour of every day of every year,
sometimes for very good technical reasons and sometimes just on the
whim of the performer and long may it continue, I hope.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Eric Grunin
2005-09-16 08:11:59 UTC
Permalink
On 15 Sep 2005 21:01:14 -0700, ***@hotmail.com wrote:

[This is a troll.]
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-09-16 14:24:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Grunin
[This is a troll.]
I trust your judgement, so it is duly PLONKed.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
g***@gmail.com
2016-08-19 09:00:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
According to the following:

- Like Toscanini, Ormandy put himself and the Philadelphia in the service of remaining true to the letter and spirit of the score.

http://www.anb.org/articles/18/18-03663.html
g***@gmail.com
2017-03-05 09:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
- Like Toscanini, Ormandy put himself and the Philadelphia in the service of remaining true to the letter and spirit of the score.
http://www.anb.org/articles/18/18-03663.html
According to the following:

- Even Toscanini, the purist whose solution to every interpretive problem was to consult the score, proclaimed that a true musician had to read between the notes.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/features/joachim4.html
g***@gmail.com
2016-08-31 21:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
According to the following:

- There's more to a great Mahler performance (and Haydn!) than just accurately playing the notes.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/mahlerlied.html
Raymond Hall
2016-09-01 00:16:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
- There's more to a great Mahler performance (and Haydn!) than just accurately playing the notes.
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/mahlerlied.html
This could be said of any music, surely?

Ray Hall, Taree
dk
2016-09-01 03:41:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
- There's more to a great Mahler performance (and Haydn!) than just accurately playing the notes.
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/mahlerlied.html
This could be said of any music, surely?
Even 4'33" ?!?

dk
Terry
2016-09-01 14:04:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
- There's more to a great Mahler performance (and Haydn!) than just accurately playing the notes.
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/mahlerlied.html
This could be said of any music, surely?
Ray Hall, Taree
It's a bloody good start...
O
2016-09-01 11:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
- There's more to a great Mahler performance (and Haydn!) than just
accurately playing the notes.
My God! I never would have known! All these years been reading this
group, and now you tell me!

-Owen
Gerard
2016-09-01 17:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
- There's more to a great Mahler performance (and Haydn!) than just
accurately playing the notes.
My God! I never would have known! All these years been reading this
group, and now you tell me!
====================

You should not always believe those reviewers.
Mark Zimmer
2016-09-01 14:23:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
- There's more to a great Mahler performance (and Haydn!) than just accurately playing the notes.
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/mahlerlied.html
I knew the g bot had to be the one reviving an 11-year-deceased thread.
g***@gmail.com
2016-09-17 23:08:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
According to this review:

- For all his delight in retouching and adjusting the printed text, there are countless examples of Stokowski's unswerving fidelity to both the letter and the spirit of the score, almost invariably in difficult, complex, or unappreciated music...

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=12100
g***@gmail.com
2017-03-22 08:05:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical/yGkFyc2NmRA
g***@gmail.com
2018-01-15 21:28:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
According to the following:

- Throughout the nineteenth century, the performer reigned supreme, and fidelity to creators' intentions was a foreign concept, at best of purely academic interest.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/features/furtwangler.html
g***@gmail.com
2019-01-05 11:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
According to this:

- Indeed, the very notion of playing a score exactly as written is musically absurd. As Robert Marsh has argued, since musical notation is far from perfect, a composer cannot possibly indicate exactly how he intends his music to be played; as a result, a performer must read into the score those elements of style and execution that lie well beyond the limits of the printed notation. Verdi himself once assured Toscanini that a true musician must know when to read between the lines.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/features/toscaweb.html
g***@gmail.com
2019-01-05 11:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
- Indeed, the very notion of playing a score exactly as written is musically absurd. As Robert Marsh has argued, since musical notation is far from perfect, a composer cannot possibly indicate exactly how he intends his music to be played; as a result, a performer must read into the score those elements of style and execution that lie well beyond the limits of the printed notation. Verdi himself once assured Toscanini that a true musician must know when to read between the lines.
http://www.classicalnotes.net/features/toscaweb.html
Also from that article:

- Classical music is a recreative art and every performer sincerely believes that he is communicating the true essence of the written music.
dk
2019-01-05 22:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
- Indeed, the very notion of playing a score exactly as written is musically absurd. As Robert Marsh has argued, since musical notation is far from perfect, a composer cannot possibly indicate exactly how he intends his music to be played; as a result, a performer must read into the score those elements of style and execution that lie well beyond the limits of the printed notation. Verdi himself once assured Toscanini that a true musician must know when to read between the lines.
http://www.classicalnotes.net/features/toscaweb.html
- Classical music is a recreative art and every performer sincerely believes that he is communicating the true essence of the written music.
The quote bot seems to have
gone into an endless loop on
this topic!

What is your point?

dk
Rich Sauer
2019-01-05 23:09:34 UTC
Permalink
On January 5 2019. ***@gmail.com

According to this:

"A dead fish placed underneath the driver's seat will make the car stink"- Immanuel Kant

And this from "Great Conductors in the Toilet"- "Knappertsbusch rarely lifted the seat when he took a whiz."
Tassilo
2019-01-06 15:47:11 UTC
Permalink
It’s really not “come scritto”: it should be “com'è scritto,” or, without the apostrophe, “come è scritto”: “how or as [come] it is [è]written [scritto].”
-dg
dk
2019-01-06 16:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tassilo
It’s really not “come scritto”: it should be
“com'è scritto,” or, without the apostrophe,
“come è scritto”: “how or as [come] it is [è]written [scritto].”
Yes indeed, but hard to type on
a US English keyboard. Not sure
the quote bot understands the
difference anyway! ;-)

dk
g***@gmail.com
2019-10-21 03:56:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tassilo
It’s really not “come scritto”: it should be “com'è scritto,” or, without the apostrophe, “come è scritto”: “how or as [come] it is [è]written [scritto].”
-dg
Well at least I'm not the only one:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22come+scritto%22&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9yZ6buqzlAhXBvZ4KHRNFBAMQ_AUIGCgB&biw=1366&bih=657
dk
2019-01-06 08:25:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
actually "come citato"! ;-)

dk
Herman
2019-01-06 10:49:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
actually "come citato"! ;-)
dk
Aesthete and gggg are the same person, bumping topics no one else wants to touch.
dk
2019-01-06 14:54:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by dk
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
actually "come citato"! ;-)
Aesthete and gggg are the same person,
bumping topics no one else wants to touch.
You mean they are actually the same bot? ;-)

dk
g***@gmail.com
2019-01-06 16:26:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
Muti and Verdi:

https://wtop.com/music/2018/02/muti-still-on-mission-to-honor-original-intent-of-verdi/
g***@gmail.com
2019-05-31 07:12:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
According to this:

- So as the question arises—why does the world need another recording of Beethoven’s Ninth when a Google search turns up no fewer than 150—Zander’s response is clear. Beethoven’s original intent has been misrepresented, misunderstood, ignored or just considered too darn difficult to play. “The vast majority of performances of the Ninth diverge quite significantly from what is written in the score. I have sought to unearth exactly what is written. For me, this study has proved to be revelatory. I hope people will be moved anew by the beauty and power of Beethoven’s vision, not because a conductor has slavishly followed those instructions, but because it reveals new evidence of his ‘unfettered genius,’” he says.

https://www.benjaminzander.org/press-release-the-story-of-the-project/
g***@gmail.com
2019-11-19 05:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
According to this:

- The liberties taken with scores...

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=bks&ei=CYLTXbXqCa3B0PEP_uyyoA4&q=%22liberties+taken+with+scores%22&oq=%22liberties+taken+with+scores%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...27093.29623.0.30124.14.14.0.0.0.0.187.1403.4j8.12.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..2.2.305...33i299k1j33i10k1.0.jjABbM-JoqY
g***@gmail.com
2019-11-27 09:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
- The interpreter is really an executant, carrying out the composer's intentions to the letter. He doesn't add anything that isn't already in the work. If he is talented, he allows us to glimpse the truth of the work that is in itself a thing of genius and that is reflected in him. He shouldn't dominate the music, but should dissolve into it.

Richter

https://books.google.com/books?id=oOg9DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA153&dq=richter+%22The+interpreter+is+really+an+executant%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwik6ajZgormAhXX3J4KHW28AFwQ6AEwAXoECAMQAg#v=onepage&q=richter%20%22The%20interpreter%20is%20really%20an%20executant%22&f=false
g***@gmail.com
2019-11-27 09:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
Concerning Toscanini:

https://books.google.com/books?id=meKR3ZgcYAcC&pg=PT58&dq=%22his+approach,+how+sincere+he+was+to+music%22+scritto+%22Two+months+later+he+got+back+to+the+old+way%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiwn5uQhYrmAhUUnZ4KHePVDyoQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22his%20approach%2C%20how%20sincere%20he%20was%20to%20music%22%20scritto%20%22Two%20months%20later%20he%20got%20back%20to%20the%20old%20way%22&f=false
i***@gmail.com
2019-12-22 23:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
According to this:

- Throughout the nineteenth century, the performer reigned supreme, and fidelity to creators' intentions was a foreign concept, at best of purely academic interest.

http://classicalnotes.net/features/furtwangler.html
g***@gmail.com
2020-05-24 17:09:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
According to this:

- With Nyiregyhazi's approach, the printed text is merely a point of departure. His deviations from the score are so extreme even Vladimir Horowitz might have blushed.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=180838
g***@gmail.com
2020-05-24 17:19:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.music.classical.recordings/tamagno%7Csort:date/rec.music.classical.recordings/rlC-kgkO7VE/3bFiXNrjAQAJ
g***@gmail.com
2020-05-31 22:57:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
According to this:

- One listen to the recording of the same piece as performed by Furtwängler versus Toscanini and it becomes immediately apparent that whilst Furtwängler was conducting the music that had been passed down to him after decades of European musical tradition, Toscanini may well have been a robot simply converting the notes on the page into sound.

https://eurasiafuture.com/2019/03/09/can-china-save-european-classical-music-from-europeans-who-have-destroyed-their-own-traditions/
oldeastsider
2020-06-01 00:46:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
- One listen to the recording of the same piece as performed by Furtwängler versus Toscanini and it becomes immediately apparent that whilst Furtwängler was conducting the music that had been passed down to him after decades of European musical tradition, Toscanini may well have been a robot simply converting the notes on the page into sound.
https://eurasiafuture.com/2019/03/09/can-china-save-european-classical-music-from-europeans-who-have-destroyed-their-own-traditions/
The level of ignorance expressed in this statement is unbelievable. I can't believe this stuff is still being promulgated.
PAUL
3mmm
2020-06-01 17:57:20 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 31 May 2020 17:46:38 -0700 (PDT), oldeastsider
Post by oldeastsider
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
- One listen to the recording of the same piece as performed by Furtwängler versus Toscanini and it becomes immediately apparent that whilst Furtwängler was conducting the music that had been passed down to him after decades of European musical tradition, Toscanini may well have been a robot simply converting the notes on the page into sound.
The level of ignorance expressed in this statement is unbelievable. I can't believe this stuff is still being promulgated.
PAUL
A 15 year old post might have some curiosity value but that's about
it. The troll is tireless in its pursuit of provocative inanities.
g***@gmail.com
2020-07-22 06:44:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
If pre-modern scores leave a lot out, isn't it only because the performing conventions and traditions of the time were well understood by performers and didn't need to be spelled out in the score?:

Isn't what is expressed explicitly that which is the exception rather than the rule which everyone already understands?:

- Because libations to the dead formed such an integral part of everyday life, the ancient Egyptians never felt the need to describe this rite.

https://books.google.com/books?id=EFnbAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT66&dq=%22ancient+egyptians+never%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjSoPrjhMvlAhWOsJ4KHYS_CG44ChDoATACegQIBBAC#v=onepage&q=%22ancient%20egyptians%20never%22&f=false
g***@gmail.com
2020-09-08 17:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
https://books.google.com/books?id=8DXnDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT12&dq=%22Yet+when+we+listen+to+his+recordings,+we+notice+wonderful+liberties+which+don%27t+reflect+what+he+wrote.%22%27%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjLjvaiiNrrAhVRmqQKHUcXBHoQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22Yet%20when%20we%20listen%20to%20his%20recordings%2C%20we%20notice%20wonderful%20liberties%20which%20don't%20reflect%20what%20he%20wrote.%22'%22&f=false
g***@gmail.com
2020-09-21 04:54:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
Does this have something to do with come scritto?:

- Those who feel guilty contemplating "betraying" the tradition they love by acknowledging their disapproval of elements within it should reflect on the fact that the very tradition to which they are so loyal—the "eternal" tradition introduced to them in their youth—is in fact the evolved product of many adjustments firmly but delicately made by earlier lovers of the same tradition.

Daniel C. Dennett ("Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon")
g***@gmail.com
2020-09-23 21:55:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
- Those who feel guilty contemplating "betraying" the tradition they love by acknowledging their disapproval of elements within it should reflect on the fact that the very tradition to which they are so loyal—the "eternal" tradition introduced to them in their youth—is in fact the evolved product of many adjustments firmly but delicately made by earlier lovers of the same tradition.
Daniel C. Dennett ("Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon")
And what about this?:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical/LSFkidTmm44
g***@gmail.com
2020-09-25 20:05:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Do you have any feelings about it?
According to this:

- ...Until fairly recently, urtexts did not possess a binding authority...

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB120122345824015449

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