Discussion:
OT: Yukio Mishima
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dk
2020-11-25 06:43:58 UTC
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a slight diversion into literature
Mandryka
2020-11-25 08:33:41 UTC
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Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
Or music. This is very good, and it’s on a proper instrument

https://www.amazon.com/C-P-Bach-Sonates-Yukio/dp/B005PZFEOW
dk
2020-11-27 01:14:05 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
Or music. This is very good, and it’s on a proper instrument
https://www.amazon.com/C-P-Bach-Sonates-Yukio/dp/B005PZFEOW
"Proper" in what ways?

dk
Mandryka
2020-11-27 05:11:16 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by Mandryka
Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
Or music. This is very good, and it’s on a proper instrument
https://www.amazon.com/C-P-Bach-Sonates-Yukio/dp/B005PZFEOW
"Proper" in what ways?
dk
Proper because of the tonal heterogeneity, intimate dynamics, expressive vibrato, the long reverb.
dk
2020-11-27 06:53:51 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Post by dk
Post by Mandryka
Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
Or music. This is very good, and it’s on a proper instrument
https://www.amazon.com/C-P-Bach-Sonates-Yukio/dp/B005PZFEOW
"Proper" in what ways?
Proper because of the tonal heterogeneity, intimate
dynamics, expressive vibrato, the long reverb.
All out of pitch?

dk
Mandryka
2020-11-27 09:11:12 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by Mandryka
Post by dk
Post by Mandryka
Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
Or music. This is very good, and it’s on a proper instrument
https://www.amazon.com/C-P-Bach-Sonates-Yukio/dp/B005PZFEOW
"Proper" in what ways?
Proper because of the tonal heterogeneity, intimate
dynamics, expressive vibrato, the long reverb.
All out of pitch?
dk
No, correct pitch. You need to retune your ears to meantone quarter comma.
JohnGavin
2020-11-27 11:24:49 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Post by dk
Post by Mandryka
Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
Or music. This is very good, and it’s on a proper instrument
https://www.amazon.com/C-P-Bach-Sonates-Yukio/dp/B005PZFEOW
"Proper" in what ways?
dk
Proper because of the tonal heterogeneity, intimate dynamics, expressive vibrato, the long reverb.
What you are really saying is that you prefer to hear this music as it was heard in CPE Bach’s time. Of course there’s nothing wrong with that. The thing that I find irritating is your use of the word “proper“. This implies that this music, played in any other way, is improper. If this is your view of music then I would accuse you of being a dogmatist. This attitude has done as much harm Is it has done good.

If your logic is carried further, then Schubert, Mozart, or Beethoven played on a modern Steinway is improper. You’re welcome to your own world. I have visited that world and as they say “it’s a nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there“.
Mandryka
2020-11-27 16:14:01 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Post by dk
Post by Mandryka
Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
Or music. This is very good, and it’s on a proper instrument
https://www.amazon.com/C-P-Bach-Sonates-Yukio/dp/B005PZFEOW
"Proper" in what ways?
dk
Proper because of the tonal heterogeneity, intimate dynamics, expressive vibrato, the long reverb.
What you are really saying is that you prefer to hear this music as it was heard in CPE Bach’s time. Of course there’s nothing wrong with that. The thing that I find irritating is your use of the word “proper“. This implies that this music, played in any other way, is improper. If this is your view of music then I would accuse you of being a dogmatist. This attitude has done as much harm Is it has done good.
If your logic is carried further, then Schubert, Mozart, or Beethoven played on a modern Steinway is improper. You’re welcome to your own world. I have visited that world and as they say “it’s a nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there“.
Some people like improper things.
Mandryka
2020-11-27 16:23:00 UTC
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A performer of classical music takes the thing the composer made and turns it into sound. Some interpretations are truthful to the composer's work, some are travesties of the truth. Possibly adorable travesties, but travesties nonetheless.

The musician's interpretation is determined by interaction of musician, composition and instrument.

A clavichord is a proper keyboard for CPEB because the interaction of performer, instrument and composition is less likely to produce a travesty; a Steinway is highly likely to produce a travesty.
JohnGavin
2020-11-27 16:53:42 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
A performer of classical music takes the thing the composer made and turns it into sound. Some interpretations are truthful to the composer's work, some are travesties of the truth. Possibly adorable travesties, but travesties nonetheless.
Two ideas come to mind here. One is that you are accorded full respect for your own take on musical truth vs musical travesties.

The other thought is that if, for example, pianists playing baroque, classical period, and even renaissance keyboard music is some sort of travesty, then you’re up against a huge and growing list of great and respected musicians.

Now, with ever increasing modern piano recordings of the English Virginalists, Louis Couperin, F. Couperin, as well as dozens of Scarlatti, Bach and Handel Suite recordings on the piano as well, the trend is moving away from HIP purists.
Post by Mandryka
The musician's interpretation is determined by interaction of musician, composition and instrument.
The third element is the most debatable.
Post by Mandryka
A clavichord is a proper keyboard for CPEB because the interaction of performer, instrument and composition is less likely to produce a travesty; a Steinway is highly likely to produce a travesty.
It might also enhance aspects of the music in a way that the clavichord is incapable of.

For me, your stance is too rigid. A composer’s imagination often surpasses the limitations of the instruments available at their time. Sometimes great art transcends the physical realm. That’s something the extremists of the HIP crowd never seem to have understood.
Mandryka
2020-11-27 17:46:46 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
A performer of classical music takes the thing the composer made and turns it into sound. Some interpretations are truthful to the composer's work, some are travesties of the truth. Possibly adorable travesties, but travesties nonetheless.
Two ideas come to mind here. One is that you are accorded full respect for your own take on musical truth vs musical travesties.
The other thought is that if, for example, pianists playing baroque, classical period, and even renaissance keyboard music is some sort of travesty, then you’re up against a huge and growing list of great and respected musicians.
Now, with ever increasing modern piano recordings of the English Virginalists, Louis Couperin, F. Couperin, as well as dozens of Scarlatti, Bach and Handel Suite recordings on the piano as well, the trend is moving away from HIP purists.
Post by Mandryka
The musician's interpretation is determined by interaction of musician, composition and instrument.
The third element is the most debatable.
Post by Mandryka
A clavichord is a proper keyboard for CPEB because the interaction of performer, instrument and composition is less likely to produce a travesty; a Steinway is highly likely to produce a travesty.
It might also enhance aspects of the music in a way that the clavichord is incapable of.
For me, your stance is too rigid. A composer’s imagination often surpasses the limitations of the instruments available at their time. Sometimes great art transcends the physical realm. That’s something the extremists of the HIP crowd never seem to have understood.
"Sometimes great art transcends the physical realm"

In the cases where the are transcends the physical realm, what do you think the relation is between the composition an a performance?
Mandryka
2020-11-27 17:58:58 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
A performer of classical music takes the thing the composer made and turns it into sound. Some interpretations are truthful to the composer's work, some are travesties of the truth. Possibly adorable travesties, but travesties nonetheless.
Two ideas come to mind here. One is that you are accorded full respect for your own take on musical truth vs musical travesties.
The other thought is that if, for example, pianists playing baroque, classical period, and even renaissance keyboard music is some sort of travesty, then you’re up against a huge and growing list of great and respected musicians.
Now, with ever increasing modern piano recordings of the English Virginalists, Louis Couperin, F. Couperin, as well as dozens of Scarlatti, Bach and Handel Suite recordings on the piano as well, the trend is moving away from HIP purists.
Post by Mandryka
The musician's interpretation is determined by interaction of musician, composition and instrument.
The third element is the most debatable.
Post by Mandryka
A clavichord is a proper keyboard for CPEB because the interaction of performer, instrument and composition is less likely to produce a travesty; a Steinway is highly likely to produce a travesty.
It might also enhance aspects of the music in a way that the clavichord is incapable of.
For me, your stance is too rigid. A composer’s imagination often surpasses the limitations of the instruments available at their time. Sometimes great art transcends the physical realm. That’s something the extremists of the HIP crowd never seem to have understood.
How do you know art transcends the physical realm? When it does, what exactly is the relation is between the composition an a performance?

(I think the idea will be difficult to make coherent)
Henk vT
2020-12-01 10:22:13 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
How do you know art transcends the physical realm? When it does, what exactly is the relation is between the composition an a performance?
(I think the idea will be difficult to make coherent)
I don't understand your question. Bach's Goldberg isn't the instrument, the performer, the score, or a recording. As Shakespeare's Hamlet isn't the theater, the actors, the manuscript (if it exists), or stage performance. The relation between a performance and Bach's Goldberg is the same as the relation between a table and your kitchen table.

Henk
Mandryka
2020-12-01 11:18:12 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Post by Mandryka
How do you know art transcends the physical realm? When it does, what exactly is the relation is between the composition an a performance?
(I think the idea will be difficult to make coherent)
I don't understand your question. Bach's Goldberg isn't the instrument, the performer, the score, or a recording. As Shakespeare's Hamlet isn't the theater, the actors, the manuscript (if it exists), or stage performance. The relation between a performance and Bach's Goldberg is the same as the relation between a table and your kitchen table.
Henk
How can you say that? In the case of the Goldberg variations the physical instrument is clearly part of the the thing that Bach created, vors Clavicimbal mit 2 Manualen
Henk vT
2020-12-01 23:11:21 UTC
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How can you say that? In the case of the Goldberg variations the physical instrument is clearly part of the the thing that Bach created, vors Clavicimbal mit 2 Manualen
It seems that Bach indicated in the original score which variations ought to be played using one hand on each manual of the harpsichord. You make an interesting point when you say that these indications are an integral part of Bach's Goldberg, as much as the aria.
It also seems that Chopin wrote his own fingerings in his manuscript of the Op. 10 etudes.
Do I understand you correctly, cannot I be sure that I'm listening to the Goldberg or etudes Op. 10, if I cannot be sure that the performer is following Bach's indications or Chopin's fingerings?

Henk
Mandryka
2020-12-02 04:48:59 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
How can you say that? In the case of the Goldberg variations the physical instrument is clearly part of the the thing that Bach created, vors Clavicimbal mit 2 Manualen
It seems that Bach indicated in the original score which variations ought to be played using one hand on each manual of the harpsichord. You make an interesting point when you say that these indications are an integral part of Bach's Goldberg, as much as the aria.
It also seems that Chopin wrote his own fingerings in his manuscript of the Op. 10 etudes.
Do I understand you correctly, cannot I be sure that I'm listening to the Goldberg or etudes Op. 10, if I cannot be sure that the performer is following Bach's indications or Chopin's fingerings?
Henk
You’re listening to something which has a relation to Bach’s creation, and if you listen to op 10 on Harpsichord you’re listening to something which has a relation to Chopin’s. I’m not sure what that relation is. Sorites may be relevant .
Henk vT
2020-12-02 09:48:46 UTC
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You’re listening to something which has a relation to Bach’s creation, and if you listen to op 10 on Harpsichord you’re listening to something which has a relation to Chopin’s. I’m not sure what that relation is.
'Relation' in the sense of: Chopin's Op. 10 as played on a harpsichord, accordion, organ? In that case, I agree.

Henk
JohnGavin
2020-12-02 11:30:31 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
You’re listening to something which has a relation to Bach’s creation, and if you listen to op 10 on Harpsichord you’re listening to something which has a relation to Chopin’s. I’m not sure what that relation is.
'Relation' in the sense of: Chopin's Op. 10 as played on a harpsichord, accordion, organ? In that case, I agree.
Henk
Wanda Landowska recorded a Chopin Mazurka on the harpsichord - I love it. What is essential is that the spirit of the music is perfectly intact!
Mandryka
2020-12-02 15:45:42 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
You’re listening to something which has a relation to Bach’s creation, and if you listen to op 10 on Harpsichord you’re listening to something which has a relation to Chopin’s. I’m not sure what that relation is.
'Relation' in the sense of: Chopin's Op. 10 as played on a harpsichord, accordion, organ? In that case, I agree.
Henk
Wanda Landowska recorded a Chopin Mazurka on the harpsichord - I love it. What is essential is that the spirit of the music is perfectly intact!
How do we verify this? I mean, fill in the dots:

It is true that the spirit of the mazurka is intact in a performance if and only of . . . .
JohnGavin
2020-12-02 16:13:23 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Post by Henk vT
You’re listening to something which has a relation to Bach’s creation, and if you listen to op 10 on Harpsichord you’re listening to something which has a relation to Chopin’s. I’m not sure what that relation is.
'Relation' in the sense of: Chopin's Op. 10 as played on a harpsichord, accordion, organ? In that case, I agree.
Henk
Wanda Landowska recorded a Chopin Mazurka on the harpsichord - I love it. What is essential is that the spirit of the music is perfectly intact!
Verify? As in putting it under a microscope or taking x-rays? It’s art, so if a person is stuck in the mind / intellect, they will never find any verification in the outer sense.




I would suggest starting with the actual performance:



Then at least read the listener comments to see that quite a few people are enthusiastic about it.
Post by Mandryka
It is true that the spirit of the mazurka is intact in a performance if and only of . .
You seem to be reaching for some theoretical equation. Why can 2 performances of the same piece of music, widely different, both be moving for the listener? Why are recordings with wrong notes eg. Schnabel or Cortot still considered great? If one insists on all the “proper’ outer conditions first, then it’s akin to judging a person’s worth strictly by their looks. You eventually come to realize that character is more important and enduring.
Henk vT
2020-12-02 17:25:30 UTC
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Post by JohnGavin
http://youtu.be/6_LuxbNw89Y
A great performance - even on the wrong instrument.

Henk
Mandryka
2020-12-02 18:17:03 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Post by JohnGavin
http://youtu.be/6_LuxbNw89Y
A great performance - even on the wrong instrument.
Henk
Ditto for “great”

Fill on the dots

“X is a great performance of Y” is true if and only if . . .

It’s another candidate for a concept which looks as though it can be used to say something, but in fact, doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, which reveals it to be meaningless.
JohnGavin
2020-12-02 18:25:25 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Post by Henk vT
Post by JohnGavin
http://youtu.be/6_LuxbNw89Y
A great performance - even on the wrong instrument.
Henk
Ditto for “great”
Fill on the dots
“X is a great performance of Y” is true if and only if . . .
It’s another candidate for a concept which looks as though it can be used to say something, but in fact, doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, which reveals it to be meaningless.
When listeners express positivity about a performance, or call it great, it comes from a direct feeling.

No offense intended, but when you repeatedly require “filling in the dots” it makes me suspect that your heart plays no role in experiencing music. But you are entitled to a clinical approach to art.
Frank Berger
2020-12-02 19:39:48 UTC
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Post by JohnGavin
Post by Mandryka
Post by Henk vT
Post by JohnGavin
http://youtu.be/6_LuxbNw89Y
A great performance - even on the wrong instrument.
Henk
Ditto for “great”
Fill on the dots
“X is a great performance of Y” is true if and only if . . .
It’s another candidate for a concept which looks as though it can be used to say something, but in fact, doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, which reveals it to be meaningless.
When listeners express positivity about a performance, or call it great, it comes from a direct feeling.
No offense intended, but when you repeatedly require “filling in the dots” it makes me suspect that your heart plays no role in experiencing music. But you are entitled to a clinical approach to art.
A person can say, "I like this performance," or "This is a
great performance," he can even wax eloquent about myriad
details of the performance that only music experts can
understand. But the fact remains his perception may not be
the same as my perception. So a single review is probably
meaningless. Now if you have multiple reviews and there's
something of a consensus, or you are familiar with a
particular reviewer's opnions vis a vis your own, then a
review can have value.
Mandryka
2020-12-02 19:59:02 UTC
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Post by JohnGavin
Post by Mandryka
Post by Henk vT
Post by JohnGavin
http://youtu.be/6_LuxbNw89Y
A great performance - even on the wrong instrument.
Henk
Ditto for “great”
Fill on the dots
“X is a great performance of Y” is true if and only if . . .
It’s another candidate for a concept which looks as though it can be used to say something, but in fact, doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, which reveals it to be meaningless.
When listeners express positivity about a performance, or call it great, it comes from a direct feeling.
No offense intended, but when you repeatedly require “filling in the dots” it makes me suspect that your heart plays no role in experiencing music. But you are entitled to a clinical approach to art.
We're discussing whether "leaves the spirit intact" or "is great" is meaningful. My suggestion is that it may appear to be, but in fact is mumbo jumbo.

Listeners may feel all sorts of things.
Henk vT
2020-12-02 19:40:47 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Fill on the dots
“X is a great performance of Y” is true if and only if . . .
<g> If and only if I find it easy to listen to.

Henk
Mandryka
2020-12-02 18:14:13 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Post by Henk vT
You’re listening to something which has a relation to Bach’s creation, and if you listen to op 10 on Harpsichord you’re listening to something which has a relation to Chopin’s. I’m not sure what that relation is.
'Relation' in the sense of: Chopin's Op. 10 as played on a harpsichord, accordion, organ? In that case, I agree.
Henk
Wanda Landowska recorded a Chopin Mazurka on the harpsichord - I love it. What is essential is that the spirit of the music is perfectly intact!
Verify? As in putting it under a microscope or taking x-rays? It’s art, so if a person is stuck in the mind / intellect, they will never find any verification in the outer sense.
http://youtu.be/6_LuxbNw89Y
Then at least read the listener comments to see that quite a few people are enthusiastic about it.
Post by Mandryka
It is true that the spirit of the mazurka is intact in a performance if and only of . .
You seem to be reaching for some theoretical equation. Why can 2 performances of the same piece of music, widely different, both be moving for the listener? Why are recordings with wrong notes eg. Schnabel or Cortot still considered great? If one insists on all the “proper’ outer conditions first, then it’s akin to judging a person’s worth strictly by their looks. You eventually come to realize that character is more important and enduring.
No, not looking for an equation. I’m looking for the verification conditions of the proposition that something is in leaves the spirit intact. If you can’t come up with them, what you’re saying may well be meaningless.
gggg gggg
2020-12-02 20:49:08 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Post by Henk vT
You’re listening to something which has a relation to Bach’s creation, and if you listen to op 10 on Harpsichord you’re listening to something which has a relation to Chopin’s. I’m not sure what that relation is.
'Relation' in the sense of: Chopin's Op. 10 as played on a harpsichord, accordion, organ? In that case, I agree.
Henk
Wanda Landowska recorded a Chopin Mazurka on the harpsichord - I love it. What is essential is that the spirit of the music is perfectly intact!
Verify? As in putting it under a microscope or taking x-rays? It’s art, so if a person is stuck in the mind / intellect, they will never find any verification in the outer sense.
http://youtu.be/6_LuxbNw89Y
Then at least read the listener comments to see that quite a few people are enthusiastic about it.
Post by Mandryka
It is true that the spirit of the mazurka is intact in a performance if and only of . .
You seem to be reaching for some theoretical equation. Why can 2 performances of the same piece of music, widely different, both be moving for the listener? Why are recordings with wrong notes eg. Schnabel or Cortot still considered great?...
What about note-perfect recordings which come across as routine, mechanical, cold and sterile and which are therefore exceedingly dull and excruciatingly boring?
Mandryka
2020-12-02 20:54:42 UTC
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Post by gggg gggg
Post by Mandryka
Post by Henk vT
You’re listening to something which has a relation to Bach’s creation, and if you listen to op 10 on Harpsichord you’re listening to something which has a relation to Chopin’s. I’m not sure what that relation is.
'Relation' in the sense of: Chopin's Op. 10 as played on a harpsichord, accordion, organ? In that case, I agree.
Henk
Wanda Landowska recorded a Chopin Mazurka on the harpsichord - I love it. What is essential is that the spirit of the music is perfectly intact!
Verify? As in putting it under a microscope or taking x-rays? It’s art, so if a person is stuck in the mind / intellect, they will never find any verification in the outer sense.
http://youtu.be/6_LuxbNw89Y
Then at least read the listener comments to see that quite a few people are enthusiastic about it.
Post by Mandryka
It is true that the spirit of the mazurka is intact in a performance if and only of . .
You seem to be reaching for some theoretical equation. Why can 2 performances of the same piece of music, widely different, both be moving for the listener? Why are recordings with wrong notes eg. Schnabel or Cortot still considered great?...
What about note-perfect recordings which come across as routine, mechanical, cold and sterile and which are therefore exceedingly dull and excruciatingly boring?
Only a fool would say that the music is the score.
Mandryka
2020-12-02 20:57:02 UTC
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A question for John, and others who think that you can decide whether you’re thinking something meaningful by what you feel.

When you say, “X is leaves the spirit of the music intact”, can you be wrong? Could you have thought it leaves the spirit intact, but in fact that was a false thing to think?
gggg gggg
2020-12-02 23:26:28 UTC
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Post by gggg gggg
Post by Mandryka
Post by Henk vT
You’re listening to something which has a relation to Bach’s creation, and if you listen to op 10 on Harpsichord you’re listening to something which has a relation to Chopin’s. I’m not sure what that relation is.
'Relation' in the sense of: Chopin's Op. 10 as played on a harpsichord, accordion, organ? In that case, I agree.
Henk
Wanda Landowska recorded a Chopin Mazurka on the harpsichord - I love it. What is essential is that the spirit of the music is perfectly intact!
Verify? As in putting it under a microscope or taking x-rays? It’s art, so if a person is stuck in the mind / intellect, they will never find any verification in the outer sense.
http://youtu.be/6_LuxbNw89Y
Then at least read the listener comments to see that quite a few people are enthusiastic about it.
Post by Mandryka
It is true that the spirit of the mazurka is intact in a performance if and only of . .
You seem to be reaching for some theoretical equation. Why can 2 performances of the same piece of music, widely different, both be moving for the listener? Why are recordings with wrong notes eg. Schnabel or Cortot still considered great?...
What about note-perfect recordings which come across as routine, mechanical, cold and sterile and which are therefore exceedingly dull and excruciatingly boring?
Many performers can capture the letter of the performance; few can transcend the letter of the performance and then go on to capture and communicate the spirit of the performance.
Todd Michel McComb
2020-12-01 23:39:44 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
How can you say that?
Overdose of Kant.
gggg gggg
2020-12-01 17:49:09 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Post by Mandryka
A performer of classical music takes the thing the composer made and turns it into sound. Some interpretations are truthful to the composer's work, some are travesties of the truth. Possibly adorable travesties, but travesties nonetheless.
Two ideas come to mind here. One is that you are accorded full respect for your own take on musical truth vs musical travesties.
The other thought is that if, for example, pianists playing baroque, classical period, and even renaissance keyboard music is some sort of travesty, then you’re up against a huge and growing list of great and respected musicians.
Now, with ever increasing modern piano recordings of the English Virginalists, Louis Couperin, F. Couperin, as well as dozens of Scarlatti, Bach and Handel Suite recordings on the piano as well, the trend is moving away from HIP purists.
Post by Mandryka
The musician's interpretation is determined by interaction of musician, composition and instrument.
The third element is the most debatable.
Post by Mandryka
A clavichord is a proper keyboard for CPEB because the interaction of performer, instrument and composition is less likely to produce a travesty; a Steinway is highly likely to produce a travesty.
It might also enhance aspects of the music in a way that the clavichord is incapable of.
For me, your stance is too rigid. A composer’s imagination often surpasses the limitations of the instruments available at their time. Sometimes great art transcends the physical realm. That’s something the extremists of the HIP crowd never seem to have understood.
How do you know art transcends the physical realm? When it does, what exactly is the relation is between the composition an a performance?
(I think the idea will be difficult to make coherent)
https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/0XzOZuot8yE/m/jPNzpZ7EAwAJ
Frank Berger
2020-11-27 16:27:33 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Post by Mandryka
Post by dk
Post by Mandryka
Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
Or music. This is very good, and it’s on a proper instrument
https://www.amazon.com/C-P-Bach-Sonates-Yukio/dp/B005PZFEOW
"Proper" in what ways?
dk
Proper because of the tonal heterogeneity, intimate dynamics, expressive vibrato, the long reverb.
What you are really saying is that you prefer to hear this music as it was heard in CPE Bach’s time. Of course there’s nothing wrong with that. The thing that I find irritating is your use of the word “proper“. This implies that this music, played in any other way, is improper. If this is your view of music then I would accuse you of being a dogmatist. This attitude has done as much harm Is it has done good.
If your logic is carried further, then Schubert, Mozart, or Beethoven played on a modern Steinway is improper. You’re welcome to your own world. I have visited that world and as they say “it’s a nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there“.
Some people like improper things.
Is it likely that a composer would have written a piece a
little differently if he had access to modern pianos? Even
if that's true, it doesn't follow that those pieces
shouldn't be played on modern pianos. Even if some aspects
ARE better on the older instrument. I don't know why people
have to make up false logic to support an opinion.
Mandryka
2020-11-27 16:53:18 UTC
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Post by Frank Berger
Post by Mandryka
Post by Mandryka
Post by dk
Post by Mandryka
Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
Or music. This is very good, and it’s on a proper instrument
https://www.amazon.com/C-P-Bach-Sonates-Yukio/dp/B005PZFEOW
"Proper" in what ways?
dk
Proper because of the tonal heterogeneity, intimate dynamics, expressive vibrato, the long reverb.
What you are really saying is that you prefer to hear this music as it was heard in CPE Bach’s time. Of course there’s nothing wrong with that. The thing that I find irritating is your use of the word “proper“. This implies that this music, played in any other way, is improper. If this is your view of music then I would accuse you of being a dogmatist. This attitude has done as much harm Is it has done good.
If your logic is carried further, then Schubert, Mozart, or Beethoven played on a modern Steinway is improper. You’re welcome to your own world. I have visited that world and as they say “it’s a nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there“.
Some people like improper things.
Is it likely that a composer would have written a piece a
little differently if he had access to modern pianos? Even
if that's true, it doesn't follow that those pieces
shouldn't be played on modern pianos. Even if some aspects
ARE better on the older instrument. I don't know why people
have to make up false logic to support an opinion.
I'm just exploring ideas here! Maybe crazy ideas, but still, something may come of it.

Just one quick point. Don't confuse the composition with the score. Not everything which was part of the composer's conception is written, partly because he just assumed that it would be played on certain types of keyboard, with certain performance conventions.

What has got me thinking about this recently was a comment about playing Mozart on clavichord. I believe Mozart owned and played clavichords. The comment basically said that when you play on a clavichord the instrument guides you about tempo. This musician was playing the Mozart sonatas much more slowly than we've become used to, and he was led to that choice by the reverb on the instrument.
MiNe109
2020-11-27 19:40:52 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Just one quick point. Don't confuse the composition with the score.
Not everything which was part of the composer's conception is
written, partly because he just assumed that it would be played on
certain types of keyboard, with certain performance conventions.
What has got me thinking about this recently was a comment about
playing Mozart on clavichord. I believe Mozart owned and played
clavichords. The comment basically said that when you play on a
clavichord the instrument guides you about tempo. This musician was
playing the Mozart sonatas much more slowly than we've become used
to, and he was led to that choice by the reverb on the instrument.
The Mozart clavichord performances I've heard are by Arthur
Schoonderwoerd and Wim Winters. The latter seems closest to your
description to me.
Mandryka
2020-11-27 22:30:57 UTC
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Post by MiNe109
Post by Mandryka
Just one quick point. Don't confuse the composition with the score.
Not everything which was part of the composer's conception is
written, partly because he just assumed that it would be played on
certain types of keyboard, with certain performance conventions.
What has got me thinking about this recently was a comment about
playing Mozart on clavichord. I believe Mozart owned and played
clavichords. The comment basically said that when you play on a
clavichord the instrument guides you about tempo. This musician was
playing the Mozart sonatas much more slowly than we've become used
to, and he was led to that choice by the reverb on the instrument.
The Mozart clavichord performances I've heard are by Arthur
Schoonderwoerd and Wim Winters. The latter seems closest to your
description to me.
Maybe, I would have to listen to the Schoonderwoerd again. I haven’t heard the Winters. I don’t believe he uses a real clavichord. It’s too loud, like a concert instrument. I once asked him about the instrument but he was reluctant to talk about it.
MiNe109
2020-11-28 17:15:15 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Post by MiNe109
Post by Mandryka
Just one quick point. Don't confuse the composition with the
score. Not everything which was part of the composer's conception
is written, partly because he just assumed that it would be
played on certain types of keyboard, with certain performance
conventions.
What has got me thinking about this recently was a comment about
playing Mozart on clavichord. I believe Mozart owned and played
clavichords. The comment basically said that when you play on a
clavichord the instrument guides you about tempo. This musician
was playing the Mozart sonatas much more slowly than we've become
used to, and he was led to that choice by the reverb on the
instrument.
The Mozart clavichord performances I've heard are by Arthur
Schoonderwoerd and Wim Winters. The latter seems closest to your
description to me.
Maybe, I would have to listen to the Schoonderwoerd again. I haven’t
heard the Winters. I don’t believe he uses a real clavichord. It’s
too loud, like a concert instrument. I once asked him about the
instrument but he was reluctant to talk about it.
It's hard to determine the correct playback level for clavichord. I
tried one once that was nearly inaudible in the room. One has to guess
how close the microphones are. Listening too loud gives a false sense of
the relative levels of attack and sustain. Sometimes there's a rustle of
page-turning as a clue.

Winters has videos on YouTube that show a large instrument, identified
as "Potvlieghe 2009 Saxon clavichord." He also has an idiosyncratic way
of interpreting metronome marks which leads to slower tempos than usual.
For KV 576, recorded by both, the timings show Winters (9:31, 10:12,
8:23) and Schoonderwoerd (6:21, 5:25, 4:56). I suppose the slower tempos
are from the metronome rather than responding to the instrument as your
commenter did.
Mandryka
2020-11-30 13:35:17 UTC
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Post by MiNe109
Post by Mandryka
Post by MiNe109
Post by Mandryka
Just one quick point. Don't confuse the composition with the
score. Not everything which was part of the composer's conception
is written, partly because he just assumed that it would be
played on certain types of keyboard, with certain performance
conventions.
What has got me thinking about this recently was a comment about
playing Mozart on clavichord. I believe Mozart owned and played
clavichords. The comment basically said that when you play on a
clavichord the instrument guides you about tempo. This musician
was playing the Mozart sonatas much more slowly than we've become
used to, and he was led to that choice by the reverb on the
instrument.
The Mozart clavichord performances I've heard are by Arthur
Schoonderwoerd and Wim Winters. The latter seems closest to your
description to me.
Maybe, I would have to listen to the Schoonderwoerd again. I haven’t
heard the Winters. I don’t believe he uses a real clavichord. It’s
too loud, like a concert instrument. I once asked him about the
instrument but he was reluctant to talk about it.
It's hard to determine the correct playback level for clavichord. I
tried one once that was nearly inaudible in the room. One has to guess
how close the microphones are. Listening too loud gives a false sense of
the relative levels of attack and sustain. Sometimes there's a rustle of
page-turning as a clue.
Winters has videos on YouTube that show a large instrument, identified
as "Potvlieghe 2009 Saxon clavichord." He also has an idiosyncratic way
of interpreting metronome marks which leads to slower tempos than usual.
For KV 576, recorded by both, the timings show Winters (9:31, 10:12,
8:23) and Schoonderwoerd (6:21, 5:25, 4:56). I suppose the slower tempos
are from the metronome rather than responding to the instrument as your
commenter did.
Where are the metronome markings from?
MiNe109
2020-11-30 16:52:18 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Post by MiNe109
Post by Mandryka
Post by MiNe109
Post by Mandryka
Just one quick point. Don't confuse the composition with the
score. Not everything which was part of the composer's conception
is written, partly because he just assumed that it would be
played on certain types of keyboard, with certain performance
conventions.
What has got me thinking about this recently was a comment about
playing Mozart on clavichord. I believe Mozart owned and played
clavichords. The comment basically said that when you play on a
clavichord the instrument guides you about tempo. This musician
was playing the Mozart sonatas much more slowly than we've become
used to, and he was led to that choice by the reverb on the
instrument.
The Mozart clavichord performances I've heard are by Arthur
Schoonderwoerd and Wim Winters. The latter seems closest to your
description to me.
Maybe, I would have to listen to the Schoonderwoerd again. I haven’t
heard the Winters. I don’t believe he uses a real clavichord. It’s
too loud, like a concert instrument. I once asked him about the
instrument but he was reluctant to talk about it.
It's hard to determine the correct playback level for clavichord. I
tried one once that was nearly inaudible in the room. One has to guess
how close the microphones are. Listening too loud gives a false sense of
the relative levels of attack and sustain. Sometimes there's a rustle of
page-turning as a clue.
Winters has videos on YouTube that show a large instrument, identified
as "Potvlieghe 2009 Saxon clavichord." He also has an idiosyncratic way
of interpreting metronome marks which leads to slower tempos than usual.
For KV 576, recorded by both, the timings show Winters (9:31, 10:12,
8:23) and Schoonderwoerd (6:21, 5:25, 4:56). I suppose the slower tempos
are from the metronome rather than responding to the instrument as your
commenter did.
Where are the metronome markings from?
For Mozart? I didn't see and of course Mozart predates the metronome...

Okay, Winters refers to metronome marks by Czerny and Moscheles which he
then halves for performance. I assume he's extrapolating from their
editions of Beethoven sonatas.
number_six
2020-11-27 20:47:18 UTC
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Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
It is not so with all great writers -- but with Mishima , I believe the art and the life are not separable.

His life, his politics, his sexuality, his literature, and the manner of his death, coalesce to form a kind of gesamtkunstwerk, in which modernity and tradition have it out to shape what tomorrows may come.

Although Hokusai is of course from a different era, Mishima reminds me of Hokusai because the paperback books in which I first encountered Mishima had cover art by Hokusai -- there representing in part Mishima's traditionalism.

Hokusai in turn reminds me of Michio Miyagi's brilliant composition Haru No Umi -- as serenely masterful a modern expression in traditional form as any music I know.
gggg gggg
2020-11-27 22:56:12 UTC
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Post by number_six
Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
It is not so with all great writers -- but with Mishima , I believe the art and the life are not separable.
His life, his politics, his sexuality, his literature, and the manner of his death, coalesce to form a kind of gesamtkunstwerk, in which modernity and tradition have it out to shape what tomorrows may come.
Although Hokusai is of course from a different era, Mishima reminds me of Hokusai because the paperback books in which I first encountered Mishima had cover art by Hokusai -- there representing in part Mishima's traditionalism.
Hokusai in turn reminds me of Michio Miyagi's brilliant composition Haru No Umi -- as serenely masterful a modern expression in traditional form as any music I know.
https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/sci.lang.japan/c/63Yaxvn_URc
Mr. Mike
2020-12-01 17:26:18 UTC
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On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 12:47:18 -0800 (PST), number_six
Post by number_six
Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
It is not so with all great writers -- but with Mishima , I believe the art and the life are not separable.
His life, his politics, his sexuality, his literature, and the manner of his death, coalesce to form a kind of gesamtkunstwerk, in which modernity and tradition have it out to shape what tomorrows may come.
Although Hokusai is of course from a different era, Mishima reminds me of Hokusai because the paperback books in which I first encountered Mishima had cover art by Hokusai -- there representing in part Mishima's traditionalism.
Hokusai in turn reminds me of Michio Miyagi's brilliant composition Haru No Umi -- as serenely masterful a modern expression in traditional form as any music I know.
There are numerous news articles about Mishima in the last few days
because he died 50 years ago, including this one:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/11/25/national/history/yukio-mishima-uniform-found/
number_six
2020-12-01 21:26:01 UTC
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Post by Mr. Mike
On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 12:47:18 -0800 (PST), number_six
Post by number_six
Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
It is not so with all great writers -- but with Mishima , I believe the art and the life are not separable.
His life, his politics, his sexuality, his literature, and the manner of his death, coalesce to form a kind of gesamtkunstwerk, in which modernity and tradition have it out to shape what tomorrows may come.
Although Hokusai is of course from a different era, Mishima reminds me of Hokusai because the paperback books in which I first encountered Mishima had cover art by Hokusai -- there representing in part Mishima's traditionalism.
Hokusai in turn reminds me of Michio Miyagi's brilliant composition Haru No Umi -- as serenely masterful a modern expression in traditional form as any music I know.
There are numerous news articles about Mishima in the last few days
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/11/25/national/history/yukio-mishima-uniform-found/
Mr Mike and ggg -- thanks for the interesting links.
gggg gggg
2020-12-01 17:53:12 UTC
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Post by number_six
Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
It is not so with all great writers -- but with Mishima , I believe the art and the life are not separable.
His life, his politics, his sexuality, his literature, and the manner of his death, coalesce to form a kind of gesamtkunstwerk, in which modernity and tradition have it out to shape what tomorrows may come.
Although Hokusai is of course from a different era, Mishima reminds me of Hokusai because the paperback books in which I first encountered Mishima had cover art by Hokusai -- there representing in part Mishima's traditionalism.
Hokusai in turn reminds me of Michio Miyagi's brilliant composition Haru No Umi -- as serenely masterful a modern expression in traditional form as any music I know.
Hokusai and Debussy:

https://www.metmuseum.org/blogs/now-at-the-met/2014/debussy-la-mer
gggg gggg
2021-01-12 03:08:59 UTC
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Post by gggg gggg
Post by number_six
Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
It is not so with all great writers -- but with Mishima , I believe the art and the life are not separable.
His life, his politics, his sexuality, his literature, and the manner of his death, coalesce to form a kind of gesamtkunstwerk, in which modernity and tradition have it out to shape what tomorrows may come.
Although Hokusai is of course from a different era, Mishima reminds me of Hokusai because the paperback books in which I first encountered Mishima had cover art by Hokusai -- there representing in part Mishima's traditionalism.
Hokusai in turn reminds me of Michio Miyagi's brilliant composition Haru No Umi -- as serenely masterful a modern expression in traditional form as any music I know.
https://www.metmuseum.org/blogs/now-at-the-met/2014/debussy-la-mer
Hokusai (podcast):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08k1b0q

Néstor Castiglione
2020-12-02 09:29:39 UTC
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Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
...and Mishima-sensei turns it back to music.



Interesting that for such a wide intellect, he seems to have not written much about music. It doesn't ever figure prominently in his literary works, save for references to certain gunka (patriotic songs). His confused baton-twirling in this clip, which shows little feeling for the actual beat of the Warship March he's conducting, says a lot.
gggg gggg
2020-12-02 17:33:24 UTC
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Post by Néstor Castiglione
Post by dk
a slight diversion into literature
...and Mishima-sensei turns it back to music.
http://youtu.be/FoDlfj4pbfs
Interesting that for such a wide intellect, he seems to have not written much about music. It doesn't ever figure prominently in his literary works, save for references to certain gunka (patriotic songs). His confused baton-twirling in this clip, which shows little feeling for the actual beat of the Warship March he's conducting, says a lot.
He was probably more into traditional Japanese music than Western music. In "Spring Snow":

- The Marquise talks about how she played The Green of the Pines on the piano while accompanied by a koto and shamisen (ch. 18)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_Snow

"The Green of the Pines" is "Matsu no Midori" which is the first song one is introduced to when one begins taking lessons in the nagauta repertoire:

https://www.komuso.com/pieces/pieces.pl?piece=3939
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