Discussion:
how slow can you go?
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William Sommerwerck
2012-07-15 08:58:41 UTC
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One of Bob & Ray's best-known sketches has Ray interviewing Bob, a member of
the Slow Talkers of America. Ray nearly goes crazy trying to finish Bob's
sentences.

I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement of
the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.

My... God... I can't remember ever having heard a work conducted so...
slow... ly... to no point whatever. No, it didn't fall apart, but neither
did it cohere. I've heard the piece dozens of times, but could barely follow
the music's line. Rutle was thoroughly enjoying himself, however, making big
gestures and grinning from ear to ear, no doubt in appreciation of his skill
at getting the tempo down to a speed that would have doubtless caused Brahms
(had he been at the concert) to commit murder. I supposed Daniel Barenboim
has to take at least half the blame, as well.

I also realized that Rutle strongly resembles Jeremy Wade (the host of
"River Monsters") with a fright wig.
--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land
c***@ckhowell.com
2012-07-15 10:38:51 UTC
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I supposed Daniel Barenboim
Post by William Sommerwerck
has to take at least half the blame, as well.
ALL. Tempi in piano concertos are chosen by the pianist. If, in a live performance, the conductor launches a ridiculous tempo, the pianist is entitled to move it on (or hold it back) when he enters. Though the purpose of a rehearsals is to avoid this happening.

Chris Howell
William Sommerwerck
2012-07-15 12:37:58 UTC
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I suppose Daniel Barenboim has to take
at least half the blame, as well.
ALL tempi in piano concertos are chosen by the pianist.
If, in a live performance, the conductor launches a ridiculous
tempo, the pianist is entitled to move it on (or hold it back)
when he enters. Though the purpose of a rehearsals is to
avoid this happening.
I was thinking about that when I wrote the post. However... there is no
question whatever that Rutle is in love with this steam-roller tempo.

Regardless, the (their) tempo choice is terrible.
Dufus
2012-07-15 12:48:22 UTC
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Schnabel - Szell , one of my favs, takes 15:53 on the Naxos cd for
that Adagio,FWW. How long was Rattle-Barenboiom ?
William Sommerwerck
2012-07-15 13:30:44 UTC
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Schnabel-Szell , one of my favs, takes 15:53 on the
Naxos CD for that Adagio, FWW. How long was
Rattle-Barenboim?
This was a segment on the Arts cable channel. (It's sort of MTV for
classical music.) I don't know how long it ran and ran and ran, but it was
close to the musical equivalent of Chinese water torture. Had I been there,
I would have been sorely tempted to stand up and scream "Get on with it!".

This is the recording, but no timings are given.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=100250

http://www.euroarts.com/artikel/dvd/?id=005365_europa_konzert_2004_from_athens

If I run across it again, I'll check my watch.
Norman Schwartz
2012-07-15 17:24:53 UTC
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Post by William Sommerwerck
Schnabel-Szell , one of my favs, takes 15:53 on the
Naxos CD for that Adagio, FWW. How long was
Rattle-Barenboim?
This was a segment on the Arts cable channel. (It's sort of MTV for
classical music.) I don't know how long it ran and ran and ran, but it was
close to the musical equivalent of Chinese water torture. Had I been there,
I would have been sorely tempted to stand up and scream "Get on with it!".
This is the recording, but no timings are given.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=100250
http://www.euroarts.com/artikel/dvd/?id=005365_europa_konzert_2004_from_athens
If I run across it again, I'll check my watch.
Why a watch? Doesn't your player show the start and end time for any track?
William Sommerwerck
2012-07-15 17:32:20 UTC
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Post by Norman Schwartz
Post by William Sommerwerck
This was a segment on the Arts cable channel. (It's sort of MTV for
classical music.) I don't know how long it ran and ran and ran, but it was
close to the musical equivalent of Chinese water torture. Had I been there,
I would have been sorely tempted to stand up and scream "Get on with it!".
This is the recording, but no timings are given.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=100250
http://www.euroarts.com/artikel/dvd/?id=005365_europa_konzert_2004_from_athens
Post by Norman Schwartz
Post by William Sommerwerck
If I run across it again, I'll check my watch.
Why a watch? Doesn't your player show the start and end time for any track?
Read above, please. Thank you.
c***@ckhowell.com
2012-07-15 19:13:33 UTC
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If I run across it again, I'll check my watch.
Or your alarm clock (Neville Cardus's quip, not mine)

Chris Howell
Terry
2012-07-16 08:44:30 UTC
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Post by c***@ckhowell.com
If I run across it again, I'll check my watch.
Or your alarm clock (Neville Cardus's quip, not mine)
Chris Howell
Or your calendar (Will Rogers, not me.)
--
Cheers!

Terry
M forever
2012-07-16 02:07:08 UTC
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Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Schnabel-Szell , one of my favs, takes 15:53 on the
Naxos CD for that Adagio, FWW. How long was
Rattle-Barenboim?
This was a segment on the Arts cable channel. (It's sort of MTV for
classical music.) I don't know how long it ran and ran and ran, but it was
close to the musical equivalent of Chinese water torture. Had I been there,
I would have been sorely tempted to stand up and scream "Get on with it!".
A sad fantasy for someone who can't even read music, to stand up and
scream in a concert if the interpretation is not to his liking. Like I
said above, you really do come across as a psychopath.
Post by William Sommerwerck
This is the recording, but no timings are given.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=100250
http://www.euroarts.com/artikel/dvd/?id=005365_europa_konzert_2004_fr...
If I run across it again, I'll check my watch.
Steven Bornfeld
2012-07-16 15:23:38 UTC
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Post by M forever
A sad fantasy for someone who can't even read music, to stand up and
scream in a concert if the interpretation is not to his liking. Like I
said above, you really do come across as a psychopath.
Oh, Michael. I understand that English is not your first language, and
you do seem to carry on quite well most of the time.
You do understand the difference between being "sorely tempted" and
actually screaming? Or killing?
Being infuriated at the tempo of a performance doesn't strike me as
particularly psychopathic.
But then, I'm not a mental health professional, and I could be wrong.
Is there anyone out there who might render a professional opinion as to
whether there is psychopathy demonstrated here?

TIA,
Steve
Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
This is the recording, but no timings are given.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=100250
http://www.euroarts.com/artikel/dvd/?id=005365_europa_konzert_2004_fr...
If I run across it again, I'll check my watch.
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
The Historian
2012-07-16 15:28:50 UTC
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Post by M forever
A sad fantasy for someone who can't even read music, to stand up and
scream in a concert if the interpretation is not to his liking. Like I
said above, you really do come across as a psychopath.
Oh, Michael.  I understand that English is not your first language, and
you do seem to carry on quite well most of the time.
You do understand the difference between being "sorely tempted" and
actually screaming?  Or killing?
Being infuriated at the tempo of a performance doesn't strike me as
particularly psychopathic.
But then, I'm not a mental health professional, and I could be wrong.
Is there anyone out there who might render a professional opinion as to
whether there is psychopathy demonstrated here?
On the part of which poster?
MiNe 109
2012-07-16 18:18:59 UTC
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Post by Steven Bornfeld
Post by M forever
A sad fantasy for someone who can't even read music, to stand up and
scream in a concert if the interpretation is not to his liking. Like I
said above, you really do come across as a psychopath.
Oh, Michael. I understand that English is not your first language, and
you do seem to carry on quite well most of the time.
You do understand the difference between being "sorely tempted" and
actually screaming? Or killing?
Being infuriated at the tempo of a performance doesn't strike me as
particularly psychopathic.
But then, I'm not a mental health professional, and I could be wrong.
Is there anyone out there who might render a professional opinion as to
whether there is psychopathy demonstrated here?
I can't but I know a 'rattle' pun when I see it. And I know who the
Rutles are, too.

Stephen
M forever
2012-07-16 19:22:08 UTC
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Post by M forever
A sad fantasy for someone who can't even read music, to stand up and
scream in a concert if the interpretation is not to his liking. Like I
said above, you really do come across as a psychopath.
Oh, Michael.  I understand that English is not your first language, and
you do seem to carry on quite well most of the time.
You do understand the difference between being "sorely tempted" and
actually screaming?  Or killing?
I understand that English *is* your first language, and you do seem to
carry on quite well most of the time. But - I have to ask - do you
understand the meaning of the word which I used to describe his
reaction - "fantasy"?
Being infuriated at the tempo of a performance doesn't strike me as
particularly psychopathic.
Nor me, but *fantasizing* - I am sorry I have to use this word which
seems to give you some trouble once more, this time in its verb form -
about screaming at performers in a concert or actually severely
physically hurting people who disagree with the person who has the
violent fantasies certainly does strike me as quite psychopathic.
But then, I'm not a mental health professional, and I could be wrong.
Is there anyone out there who might render a professional opinion as to
whether there is psychopathy demonstrated here?
I am not a dentist, but I can tell when someone has rotten teeth.
Roland van Gaalen
2012-07-17 20:53:21 UTC
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Post by M forever
I am not a dentist, but I can tell when someone has rotten teeth
Rabies, not caries.
--
Roland van Gaalen
Alan Dawes
2012-07-16 09:42:01 UTC
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Post by William Sommerwerck
I supposed Daniel Barenboim
Post by William Sommerwerck
has to take at least half the blame, as well.
ALL. Tempi in piano concertos are chosen by the pianist. If, in a live performance, the conductor launches a ridiculous tempo, the pianist is entitled to move it on (or hold it back) when he enters. Though the purpose of a rehearsals is to avoid this happening.
Chris Howell
That reminds me of the radio interview with Baremboim just after the
release of the Beethoven piano concertos with Klemperer conducting.
Barenboim was asked if he would have preferred faster speeds for some of
the movememnts, his answer was no Klemperer wanted faster speeds but he
wanted slower so they compromised, which rather threw the interviewer as
it was not the answer that he'd expected.

Alan
--
***@argonet.co.uk
***@riscos.org
Using an Acorn RiscPC
Matthew B. Tepper
2012-07-15 15:58:04 UTC
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Post by William Sommerwerck
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement
of the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.
The real reason to have that DVD, of course, is for the coupling.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
William Sommerwerck
2012-07-15 16:17:31 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by William Sommerwerck
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the
slow movement of the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his
neck and rattle his brains.
The real reason to have that DVD, of course, is for the coupling.
That's disgusting!

Oh... You mean the other work, the Schoenberg transcription. Is it that
good?
Kip Williams
2012-07-15 16:21:44 UTC
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Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by William Sommerwerck
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the
slow movement of the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his
neck and rattle his brains.
The real reason to have that DVD, of course, is for the coupling.
That's disgusting!
Oh... You mean the other work, the Schoenberg transcription. Is it that
good?
Pervert! I had the exact same thought.


Kip W
Matthew B. Tepper
2012-07-15 22:49:46 UTC
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Post by Kip Williams
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by William Sommerwerck
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement
of the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.
The real reason to have that DVD, of course, is for the coupling.
That's disgusting!
Oh... You mean the other work, the Schoenberg transcription. Is it that
good?
Pervert! I had the exact same thought.
Har de har, guys. The Rattle/Berlin DVD is better played than Sir Simon's
old orchestra, but the audio-only Brahms-and-Schoenberg CD has better sound.
(Still needs more xylophone, though.)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Mike Painter
2012-07-16 01:24:37 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Har de har, guys. The Rattle/Berlin DVD is better played than Sir Simon's
old orchestra, but the audio-only Brahms-and-Schoenberg CD has better sound.
(Still needs more xylophone, though.)
It was fun to hear them play it here in SF 2 seasons ago.

cheers,
Mike
John Thomas
2012-07-15 16:05:33 UTC
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Post by William Sommerwerck
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement of
the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.
Have you heard Kurt Sanderling's recording with the Dresden
Staatskapelle?
William Sommerwerck
2012-07-15 16:16:21 UTC
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Post by William Sommerwerck
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting
the slow movement of the Brahms PC1. I wanted to
grab his neck and rattle his brains.
Have you heard Kurt Sanderling's recording with the
Dresden Staatskapelle?
No. Is it even slower?
John Thomas
2012-07-15 18:01:33 UTC
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> I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting
> the slow movement of the Brahms PC1. I wanted to
> grab his neck and rattle his brains.
> Have you heard Kurt Sanderling's recording with the
> Dresden Staatskapelle?
No. Is it even slower?
Can't tell you since I managed to sell it off recently and have no record of the timings. It was just too slow for me.
M forever
2012-07-16 02:06:02 UTC
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Post by William Sommerwerck
One of Bob & Ray's best-known sketches has Ray interviewing Bob, a member of
the Slow Talkers of America. Ray nearly goes crazy trying to finish Bob's
sentences.
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement of
the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.
I myself am not a big fan of excessively slow tempi just for the sake
of because we can. But when accomplished artists choose such tempi, I
am prepared to listen and hear if they have something of interest to
say, if they bring some new insights and be it only in some details.
It is typical for you though as someone who above all does not like to
have his narrow-minded preconceptions challenged to react to something
like that with violent fantasies. We have seen that numerous times
before, at times in some fairly extreme forms.
I really do think you are a psychopath.
Post by William Sommerwerck
My... God... I can't remember ever having heard a work conducted so...
slow... ly... to no point whatever. No, it didn't fall apart, but neither
did it cohere. I've heard the piece dozens of times, but could barely follow
the music's line. Rutle was thoroughly enjoying himself, however, making big
gestures and grinning from ear to ear, no doubt in appreciation of his skill
at getting the tempo down to a speed that would have doubtless caused Brahms
(had he been at the concert) to commit murder.
I supposed Daniel Barenboim
has to take at least half the blame, as well.
I also realized that Rutle strongly resembles Jeremy Wade (the host of
"River Monsters") with a fright wig.
--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land
Mark S
2012-07-16 03:42:34 UTC
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Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
One of Bob & Ray's best-known sketches has Ray interviewing Bob, a member of
the Slow Talkers of America. Ray nearly goes crazy trying to finish Bob's
sentences.
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement of
the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.
I myself am not a big fan of excessively slow tempi just for the sake
of because we can. But when accomplished artists choose such tempi, I
am prepared to listen and hear if they have something of interest to
say, if they bring some new insights and be it only in some details.
Agreed.

Besides, it isn't really about the pulse of the basic tempo, but the
proportional relationships between tempo shifts, articulation,
balances and expressive choices. If those are lined up, tempo becomes
almost irrelevant.

BTW - for years, I heard the story of the battle between Glenn Gould
and Bernstein on the Brahms 1, and how Bernstein felt so at odds with
Gould's interpretation that he felt it necessary to voice his concerns
to the audience before they performed the piece.

Then, the CD of that performance came out on Sony a few years back,
and listening to it had me wondering what the hell Lenny's problem
was. It all seemed perfectly normal to me.
Dufus
2012-07-16 12:11:24 UTC
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Post by Mark S
Then, the CD of that performance came out on Sony a few years back,
and listening to it had me wondering what the hell Lenny's problem
was. It all seemed perfectly normal to me.
In this review excerpt at Amazon, presumably from 1998 when the cd re-
issued, Distler seems to agree with you :


" Newly remastered from a Voice of America mono off-line aircheck,
one hears more detail and ambiance here than in previous reissues of
this controversial performance taped live at Carnegie Hall April 6th,
1962. The conductor's infamous "disclaimer" disassociating himself
from Glenn Gould's slow tempi is preserved along with a snippet from
an interview in which Gould defends both his interpretation and
Bernstein's actions. The first movement starts slow, but insidiously
speeds up to a tempo not far from the norm. Flickering in and out of
Bernstein's turgid orchestral backdrop, Gould downplays the music's
fiery intensity, seeking to emphasize its meditative qualities and
contrapuntal implications. If Sony wanted to issue a Gould Brahms D-
Minor, why not the more incisive, and far better-engineered October
1962 Baltimore version? --Jed Distler "
Matthew B. Tepper
2012-07-16 14:38:13 UTC
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Dufus <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:af199b84-993e-4ca2-96b1-
Post by Dufus
Post by Mark S
Then, the CD of that performance came out on Sony a few years back,
and listening to it had me wondering what the hell Lenny's problem
was. It all seemed perfectly normal to me.
In this review excerpt at Amazon, presumably from 1998 when the cd re-
" Newly remastered from a Voice of America mono off-line aircheck,
one hears more detail and ambiance here than in previous reissues of
this controversial performance taped live at Carnegie Hall April 6th,
1962. The conductor's infamous "disclaimer" disassociating himself
from Glenn Gould's slow tempi is preserved along with a snippet from
an interview in which Gould defends both his interpretation and
Bernstein's actions. The first movement starts slow, but insidiously
speeds up to a tempo not far from the norm. Flickering in and out of
Bernstein's turgid orchestral backdrop, Gould downplays the music's
fiery intensity, seeking to emphasize its meditative qualities and
contrapuntal implications. If Sony wanted to issue a Gould Brahms D-
Minor, why not the more incisive, and far better-engineered October
1962 Baltimore version? --Jed Distler "
Because this one was "pre-sold" with many years of advance publicity. Just
as was later to happen with the Keilberth 1955 "Ring."
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
William Sommerwerck
2012-07-16 12:28:34 UTC
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Post by Mark S
Besides, it isn't really about the pulse of the basic
tempo, but the proportional relationships between
tempo shifts, articulation, balances, and expressive
choices. If those are lined up, tempo becomes
almost irrelevant.
If you'd heard this performance, you'd take that back.

I often cite Stokowski as a conductor who was seemingly unique in being able
to bring the tempo to a near halt, without losing any sense of forward
motion, or "shape". Rutle isn't even remotely in Stokowski's class.
Post by Mark S
BTW - for years, I heard the story of the battle between
Glenn Gould and Bernstein on the Brahms 1, and how
Bernstein felt so at odds with Gould's interpretation that
he felt it necessary to voice his concerns to the audience
before they performed the piece.
I heard a few years ago that that was largely apochryphal. But I don't
remember the source.
Robert Pecchioni
2012-07-16 13:43:06 UTC
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Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Mark S
Besides, it isn't really about the pulse of the basic
tempo, but the proportional relationships between
tempo shifts, articulation, balances, and expressive
choices. If those are lined up, tempo becomes
almost irrelevant.
If you'd heard this performance, you'd take that back.
I often cite Stokowski as a conductor who was seemingly unique in being able
to bring the tempo to a near halt, without losing any sense of forward
motion, or "shape". Rutle isn't even remotely in Stokowski's class.
Post by Mark S
BTW - for years, I heard the story of the battle between
Glenn Gould and Bernstein on the Brahms 1, and how
Bernstein felt so at odds with Gould's interpretation that
he felt it necessary to voice his concerns to the audience
before they performed the piece.
I heard a few years ago that that was largely apochryphal. But I don't
remember the source.
It really did happen. The NYP broadcasts featured the historical
performance about a year ago, including Bernstein's announcement that he and
the soloist had interpretive differences. Lenny then noted dryly that they
had reached a "compromise"... and would do it Mr. Gould's way.
graham
2012-07-16 13:51:39 UTC
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Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Mark S
Besides, it isn't really about the pulse of the basic
tempo, but the proportional relationships between
tempo shifts, articulation, balances, and expressive
choices. If those are lined up, tempo becomes
almost irrelevant.
If you'd heard this performance, you'd take that back.
I often cite Stokowski as a conductor who was seemingly unique in being able
to bring the tempo to a near halt, without losing any sense of forward
motion, or "shape". Rutle isn't even remotely in Stokowski's class.
Post by Mark S
BTW - for years, I heard the story of the battle between
Glenn Gould and Bernstein on the Brahms 1, and how
Bernstein felt so at odds with Gould's interpretation that
he felt it necessary to voice his concerns to the audience
before they performed the piece.
I heard a few years ago that that was largely apochryphal. But I don't
remember the source.
Blimey! The recording of that concert AND speech was available recently! I
heard it on CBC radio not long ago.
Graham
M forever
2012-07-16 20:12:39 UTC
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Post by Mark S
Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
One of Bob & Ray's best-known sketches has Ray interviewing Bob, a member of
the Slow Talkers of America. Ray nearly goes crazy trying to finish Bob's
sentences.
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement of
the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.
I myself am not a big fan of excessively slow tempi just for the sake
of because we can. But when accomplished artists choose such tempi, I
am prepared to listen and hear if they have something of interest to
say, if they bring some new insights and be it only in some details.
Agreed.
Besides, it isn't really about the pulse of the basic tempo, but the
proportional relationships between tempo shifts, articulation,
balances and expressive choices. If those are lined up, tempo becomes
almost irrelevant.
BTW - for years, I heard the story of the battle between Glenn Gould
and Bernstein on the Brahms 1, and how Bernstein felt so at odds with
Gould's interpretation that he felt it necessary to voice his concerns
to the audience before they performed the piece.
Then, the CD of that performance came out on Sony a few years back,
and listening to it had me wondering what the hell Lenny's problem
was. It all seemed perfectly normal to me.
I assume that the CD you have is the same one I have which includes
that "infamous" speech and some remarks Gould made in an interview a
year or so later. The speech is actually quite funny and Bernstein
used that opportunity to make a few remarks about the nature of the
conductor-soloist relationship, but I didn't get a sense from either's
comments that there was a big "battle" between the two.
Burton writes in his Bernstein book that Gould had phoned Bernstein in
advance and "warned" him that his views of the piece might be unusual,
but apparently the rehearsals were harmonious and Bernstein made those
pre-concert announcements with Gould's (who was waiting backstage,
"giggling") full agreement.
According to Burton, it was the critic Harold Schonberg who made a big
deal out of it and wrote a biting review which mocked Gould and even
suggested that he played the piece that slowly because of technical
problems. Burton also points out that Gould stopped appearing in live
concerts soon afterwards, but this episode does not seem to have had
much to do with that.
O
2012-07-16 20:23:41 UTC
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In article
Post by M forever
I assume that the CD you have is the same one I have which includes
that "infamous" speech and some remarks Gould made in an interview a
year or so later. The speech is actually quite funny and Bernstein
used that opportunity to make a few remarks about the nature of the
conductor-soloist relationship, but I didn't get a sense from either's
comments that there was a big "battle" between the two.
Burton writes in his Bernstein book that Gould had phoned Bernstein in
advance and "warned" him that his views of the piece might be unusual,
but apparently the rehearsals were harmonious and Bernstein made those
pre-concert announcements with Gould's (who was waiting backstage,
"giggling") full agreement.
According to Burton, it was the critic Harold Schonberg who made a big
deal out of it and wrote a biting review which mocked Gould and even
suggested that he played the piece that slowly because of technical
problems. Burton also points out that Gould stopped appearing in live
concerts soon afterwards, but this episode does not seem to have had
much to do with that.
I also have the CD. The performance is not that slow that it would be
otherwise remarkable without the alleged "battle." If they had not
commented, there's nothing in the performance to attest to a
confrontation or even a compromise. In fact, it's not a very remarkable
performance at all. Maybe their "battle" sapped some of their energy.

-Owen
M forever
2012-07-16 22:06:36 UTC
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Post by O
In article
Post by M forever
I assume that the CD you have is the same one I have which includes
that "infamous" speech and some remarks Gould made in an interview a
year or so later. The speech is actually quite funny and Bernstein
used that opportunity to make a few remarks about the nature of the
conductor-soloist relationship, but I didn't get a sense from either's
comments that there was a big "battle" between the two.
Burton writes in his Bernstein book that Gould had phoned Bernstein in
advance and "warned" him that his views of the piece might be unusual,
but apparently the rehearsals were harmonious and Bernstein made those
pre-concert announcements with Gould's (who was waiting backstage,
"giggling") full agreement.
According to Burton, it was the critic Harold Schonberg who made a big
deal out of it and wrote a biting review which mocked Gould and even
suggested that he played the piece that slowly because of technical
problems. Burton also points out that Gould stopped appearing in live
concerts soon afterwards, but this episode does not seem to have had
much to do with that.
I also have the CD.  The performance is not that slow that it would be
otherwise remarkable without the alleged "battle."   If they had not
commented, there's nothing in the performance to attest to a
confrontation or even a compromise. In fact, it's not a very remarkable
performance at all.  Maybe their "battle" sapped some of their energy.
Unlikely, since there doesn't seem to have been a "battle" - more a
spirited discussion. The end result reflects what Gould says in the
interview was his concept of the piece. Less of a concertare between
piano and orchestra than a more integrated view of the roles of
soloist and orchestra, kind of like a big tone poem for piano and
orchestra. Bernstein's later version with Zimerman is similarly
expansive and elegiac, even slower than the Gould version in the
second movement. But of course, by then Bernstein was also much older
and given to at times very broad tempi and elegiac interpretations. It
is probably safe to assume that he dominated the interpretive choices
in that partnership, but Zimerman seems to have been very happy to
play his part the way he did.
William Sommerwerck
2012-07-16 12:23:55 UTC
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Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting
the slow movement of the Brahms PC1. I wanted to
grab his neck and rattle his brains.
I myself am not a big fan of excessively slow tempi just
for the sake of because we can. But when accomplished
artists choose such tempi, I am prepared to listen and
hear if they have something of interest to say, if they bring
some new insights and be it only in some details.
In this case, no way. He kept the piece from falling apart, but it was
tedious to the point of inciting violence.
Post by M forever
It is typical for you though as someone who above all does
not like to have his narrow-minded preconceptions challenged...
You obviously don't know me. But, of course, one listener's "different for
the sake of being different" is another's "brilliant, insightful".
Post by M forever
...to react to something like that with violent fantasies. We have
seen that numerous times before, at times in some fairly extreme
forms. I really do think you are a psychopath.
I was also making a joke that might not have come across well to a
native-German speaker.
Gerard
2012-07-16 17:04:29 UTC
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Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting
the slow movement of the Brahms PC1. I wanted to
grab his neck and rattle his brains.
I myself am not a big fan of excessively slow tempi just
for the sake of because we can. But when accomplished
artists choose such tempi, I am prepared to listen and
hear if they have something of interest to say, if they bring
some new insights and be it only in some details.
In this case, no way. He kept the piece from falling apart, but it was
tedious to the point of inciting violence.
Post by M forever
It is typical for you though as someone who above all does
not like to have his narrow-minded preconceptions challenged...
You obviously don't know me. But, of course, one listener's
"different for the sake of being different" is another's "brilliant,
insightful".
Post by M forever
...to react to something like that with violent fantasies. We have
seen that numerous times before, at times in some fairly extreme
forms. I really do think you are a psychopath.
I was also making a joke that might not have come across well to a
native-German speaker.
I don't thin that it matters.
If he doesn't like someone, he calls him a psychopath or an idiot.
Is there a difference BTW?
Angelotti
2012-07-16 17:14:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting
the slow movement of the Brahms PC1. I wanted to
grab his neck and rattle his brains.
I myself am not a big fan of excessively slow tempi just
for the sake of because we can. But when accomplished
artists choose such tempi, I am prepared to listen and
hear if they have something of interest to say, if they bring
some new insights and be it only in some details.
In this case, no way. He kept the piece from falling apart, but it was
tedious to the point of inciting violence.
Post by M forever
It is typical for you though as someone who above all does
not like to have his narrow-minded preconceptions challenged...
You obviously don't know me. But, of course, one listener's
"different for the sake of being different" is another's "brilliant,
insightful".
Post by M forever
...to react to something like that with violent fantasies. We have
seen that numerous times before, at times in some fairly extreme
forms. I really do think you are a psychopath.
I was also making a joke that might not have come across well to a
native-German speaker.
I don't thin that it matters.
If he doesn't like someone, he calls him a psychopath or an idiot.
Is there a difference BTW?
You are an idiot and you do not know the difference?
M forever
2012-07-16 19:57:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting
the slow movement of the Brahms PC1. I wanted to
grab his neck and rattle his brains.
I myself am not a big fan of excessively slow tempi just
for the sake of because we can. But when accomplished
artists choose such tempi, I am prepared to listen and
hear if they have something of interest to say, if they bring
some new insights and be it only in some details.
In this case, no way. He kept the piece from falling apart, but it was
tedious to the point of inciting violence.
To the point of "inciting violence". Your own words. Need I say more?

It's just typical for you to react in that way as that is how you
react to any challenges to your "musical perception" which may either
be an usual interpretation or a piece of music which is just too
complex for you to grasp. And since we have seen that even mildly
complex pieces of music are too difficult for you to grasp, that also
means that an interpretation which stretches the connection between
its elements is more or less automatically "out of reach" for you.

Creepily enough, I even had to think of you last night when I surfed
youtube and came across a documentary about the original Star Wars. Of
course, the music was playing in the background and that reminded me
of how you said that Williams didn't really vary his themes at all -
while I heard countless permutations of his main themes in the
background, some of them very inventive and very well crafted, varying
all parameters of the thematic material in ways which fit the on
screen situations very well. Then it occurred to me that someone like
you is probably simply not able to hear that some of those variations
are actually based on the same basic material. That explained that.
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by M forever
It is typical for you though as someone who above all does
not like to have his narrow-minded preconceptions challenged...
You obviously don't know me. But, of course, one listener's "different for
the sake of being different" is another's "brilliant, insightful".
Someone who has as little - if any - real insights into the nature of
music and musical composition as you do would never be able to
understand if the latter was the case in a given situation.
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by M forever
...to react to something like that with violent fantasies. We have
seen that numerous times before, at times in some fairly extreme
forms. I really do think you are a psychopath.
I was also making a joke that might not have come across well to a
native-German speaker.
Oh no, I completely got your super hilarious "joke" about how you
wanted to "rattle" his brains. Verrrrrrry funny! But it's not the
"joke" I was talking about. It was your violent counter reaction as
such.
g***@gmail.com
2017-09-01 00:13:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
One of Bob & Ray's best-known sketches has Ray interviewing Bob, a member of
the Slow Talkers of America. Ray nearly goes crazy trying to finish Bob's
sentences.
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement of
the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.
I myself am not a big fan of excessively slow tempi just for the sake
of because we can. But when accomplished artists choose such tempi, I
am prepared to listen and hear if they have something of interest to
say, if they bring some new insights and be it only in some details...
According to the following recent article:

- ...When I think of Richter’s Schubert, one thing comes to mind first: tempo. Slow tempos, glacial tempos, tempos that make no sense on paper, but that, when heard, transport the interpretations into visionary terrain.

https://theamericanscholar.org/schubert-everlasting/#
Bozo
2017-09-01 00:41:50 UTC
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- ...When I think of Richter’s Schubert, one thing comes to mind first: tempo. >Slow tempos, glacial tempos, tempos that make no sense on paper, but that, when >heard, transport the interpretations into visionary terrain.
D.894 :

Dan Koren
2021-11-21 02:36:32 UTC
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- ...When I think of Richter’s Schubert, one thing comes to mind first: tempo. >Slow tempos, glacial tempos, tempos that make no sense on paper, but that, when >heard, transport the interpretations into visionary terrain.
D.894 : http://youtu.be/E7_OW2__ZR0


dk
Dan Koren
2021-11-21 03:30:54 UTC
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Post by Dan Koren
D.894 : http://youtu.be/E7_OW2__ZR0
http://youtu.be/M1oNW4SnGWQ
Berman not far behind -- or ahead
depending on one's point of view.



dk

g***@gmail.com
2017-09-01 01:23:53 UTC
Reply
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Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by M forever
Post by William Sommerwerck
One of Bob & Ray's best-known sketches has Ray interviewing Bob, a member of
the Slow Talkers of America. Ray nearly goes crazy trying to finish Bob's
sentences.
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement of
the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.
I myself am not a big fan of excessively slow tempi just for the sake
of because we can. But when accomplished artists choose such tempi, I
am prepared to listen and hear if they have something of interest to
say, if they bring some new insights and be it only in some details...
- ...When I think of Richter’s Schubert, one thing comes to mind first: tempo. Slow tempos, glacial tempos, tempos that make no sense on paper, but that, when heard, transport the interpretations into visionary terrain.
https://theamericanscholar.org/schubert-everlasting/#
Concerning the opening of D.960, Wikipedia says:

- Ever since the famous performances by Sviatoslav Richter, taking the opening movement at an extremely slow pace, similar tempo interpretations for this movement have been frequent. However, the majority of Schubert scholars tend to dismiss such an interpretation, arguing instead for a more flowing pace, a measured allegro.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schubert%27s_last_sonatas#Performance_issues
Terry
2012-07-16 08:47:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
One of Bob & Ray's best-known sketches has Ray interviewing Bob, a member of
the Slow Talkers of America. Ray nearly goes crazy trying to finish Bob's
sentences.
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement of
the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.
My... God... I can't remember ever having heard a work conducted so...
slow... ly... to no point whatever. No, it didn't fall apart, but neither
did it cohere. I've heard the piece dozens of times, but could barely follow
the music's line. Rutle was thoroughly enjoying himself, however, making big
gestures and grinning from ear to ear, no doubt in appreciation of his skill
at getting the tempo down to a speed that would have doubtless caused Brahms
(had he been at the concert) to commit murder. I supposed Daniel Barenboim
has to take at least half the blame, as well.
I also realized that Rutle strongly resembles Jeremy Wade (the host of
"River Monsters") with a fright wig.
However, it's a movement that can take a lot of slowness, in my opinion. The
first movement needs to keep moving along, though.
--
Cheers!

Terry
William Sommerwerck
2012-07-16 12:32:22 UTC
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Post by Terry
However, it's a movement that can take a lot of slowness,
in my opinion.
No question about it. One can easily imagine an exquisitely languid
performance. (I mean that seriously.) But if the Rutle/Barenboim
intepretation was "exquisitely languid", it was only in their heads.

To paraphrase the Fairy Queen... "I see nothing wrong with slowness -- in
moderation."
M forever
2012-07-16 20:13:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by Terry
However, it's a movement that can take a lot of slowness,
in my opinion.
No question about it. One can easily imagine an exquisitely languid
performance. (I mean that seriously.) But if the Rutle/Barenboim
intepretation was "exquisitely languid", it was only in their heads.
Or maybe it just didn't make it into your obtuse head - few things do.
Post by William Sommerwerck
To paraphrase the Fairy Queen... "I see nothing wrong with slowness -- in
moderation."
g***@gmail.com
2017-01-19 06:59:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
One of Bob & Ray's best-known sketches has Ray interviewing Bob, a member of
the Slow Talkers of America. Ray nearly goes crazy trying to finish Bob's
sentences.
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement of
the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.
My... God... I can't remember ever having heard a work conducted so...
slow... ly... to no point whatever. No, it didn't fall apart, but neither
did it cohere. I've heard the piece dozens of times, but could barely follow
the music's line. Rutle was thoroughly enjoying himself, however, making big
gestures and grinning from ear to ear, no doubt in appreciation of his skill
at getting the tempo down to a speed that would have doubtless caused Brahms
(had he been at the concert) to commit murder. I supposed Daniel Barenboim
has to take at least half the blame, as well.
I also realized that Rutle strongly resembles Jeremy Wade (the host of
"River Monsters") with a fright wig.
--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land
This article on the slow tempi of Herrmann and Celibidache may be of interest:

http://folk.uib.no/smkgg/midi/soundtrackweb/herrmann/articles/conducting/planets2.html
g***@gmail.com
2017-02-14 06:52:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
One of Bob & Ray's best-known sketches has Ray interviewing Bob, a member of
the Slow Talkers of America. Ray nearly goes crazy trying to finish Bob's
sentences.
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement of
the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.
My... God... I can't remember ever having heard a work conducted so...
slow... ly... to no point whatever. No, it didn't fall apart, but neither
did it cohere. I've heard the piece dozens of times, but could barely follow
the music's line. Rutle was thoroughly enjoying himself, however, making big
gestures and grinning from ear to ear, no doubt in appreciation of his skill
at getting the tempo down to a speed that would have doubtless caused Brahms
(had he been at the concert) to commit murder. I supposed Daniel Barenboim
has to take at least half the blame, as well.
I also realized that Rutle strongly resembles Jeremy Wade (the host of
"River Monsters") with a fright wig.
--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land
Concerning Haitink's tempo for Holst's MARS:

- In a slow performance of Mars, such as Bernard I I.iii ink's recording for Philips, a more noble character is felt. The ostinato is more of a solemn processional, and the overtly tonal and major- key passages are suffused with a human warmth. The sense of power and strength is positive rather than negative or sinister. However, Holst's marking and his own performances are much faster.

https://www.amazon.com/Holst-Planets-Cambridge-Music-Handbooks/dp/0521456339/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1487054348&sr=1-8&keywords=holst+planets
g***@gmail.com
2017-02-14 06:55:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by William Sommerwerck
One of Bob & Ray's best-known sketches has Ray interviewing Bob, a member of
the Slow Talkers of America. Ray nearly goes crazy trying to finish Bob's
sentences.
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement of
the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.
My... God... I can't remember ever having heard a work conducted so...
slow... ly... to no point whatever. No, it didn't fall apart, but neither
did it cohere. I've heard the piece dozens of times, but could barely follow
the music's line. Rutle was thoroughly enjoying himself, however, making big
gestures and grinning from ear to ear, no doubt in appreciation of his skill
at getting the tempo down to a speed that would have doubtless caused Brahms
(had he been at the concert) to commit murder. I supposed Daniel Barenboim
has to take at least half the blame, as well.
I also realized that Rutle strongly resembles Jeremy Wade (the host of
"River Monsters") with a fright wig.
--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land
- In a slow performance of Mars, such as Bernard I I.iii ink's recording for Philips, a more noble character is felt. The ostinato is more of a solemn processional, and the overtly tonal and major- key passages are suffused with a human warmth. The sense of power and strength is positive rather than negative or sinister. However, Holst's marking and his own performances are much faster.
https://www.amazon.com/Holst-Planets-Cambridge-Music-Handbooks/dp/0521456339/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1487054348&sr=1-8&keywords=holst+planets
(Sorry. Here is a better link to the above):

https://books.google.com/books?id=STNrlYoU1FAC&pg=PA95&dq=%22In+a+slow+performance+of+Mars,+such+as+Bernard%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjo7NixgI_SAhVny1QKHQouBLwQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=%22In%20a%20slow%20performance%20of%20Mars%2C%20such%20as%20Bernard%22&f=false
g***@gmail.com
2017-02-14 08:39:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
One of Bob & Ray's best-known sketches has Ray interviewing Bob, a member of
the Slow Talkers of America. Ray nearly goes crazy trying to finish Bob's
sentences.
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement of
the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.
My... God... I can't remember ever having heard a work conducted so...
slow... ly... to no point whatever. No, it didn't fall apart, but neither
did it cohere. I've heard the piece dozens of times, but could barely follow
the music's line. Rutle was thoroughly enjoying himself, however, making big
gestures and grinning from ear to ear, no doubt in appreciation of his skill
at getting the tempo down to a speed that would have doubtless caused Brahms
(had he been at the concert) to commit murder. I supposed Daniel Barenboim
has to take at least half the blame, as well.
I also realized that Rutle strongly resembles Jeremy Wade (the host of
"River Monsters") with a fright wig.
--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land
Concerning Streisand's recording of "Verschwiegene Liebe", the tempo was so slow that the music came across as deep, spiritual, mysterious and almost spooky as if it were filled with the darker than dark shadows full of hidden meaning.
Gerald Martin
2017-02-14 18:40:51 UTC
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Permalink
No discussion of "slow" can be without conductor Maximianno Cobra, whose Beethoven 9 (on YouTube) lasts one hour fifty-four minutes.
g***@gmail.com
2017-07-27 09:16:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by William Sommerwerck
One of Bob & Ray's best-known sketches has Ray interviewing Bob, a member of
the Slow Talkers of America. Ray nearly goes crazy trying to finish Bob's
sentences.
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement of
the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.
My... God... I can't remember ever having heard a work conducted so...
slow... ly... to no point whatever. No, it didn't fall apart, but neither
did it cohere. I've heard the piece dozens of times, but could barely follow
the music's line. Rutle was thoroughly enjoying himself, however, making big
gestures and grinning from ear to ear, no doubt in appreciation of his skill
at getting the tempo down to a speed that would have doubtless caused Brahms
(had he been at the concert) to commit murder. I supposed Daniel Barenboim
has to take at least half the blame, as well.
I also realized that Rutle strongly resembles Jeremy Wade (the host of
"River Monsters") with a fright wig.
--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land
Concerning Streisand's recording of "Verschwiegene Liebe", the tempo was so slow that the music came across as deep, spiritual, mysterious and almost spooky as if it were filled with the darker than dark shadows full of hidden meaning.
Recent radio program on Streisand's art song interpretations:

http://lottelehmannleague.org/singing-sins-archive/
gggg gggg
2021-11-18 07:18:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
One of Bob & Ray's best-known sketches has Ray interviewing Bob, a member of
the Slow Talkers of America. Ray nearly goes crazy trying to finish Bob's
sentences.
I just watched a video of Sir Simon Rutle conducting the slow movement of
the Brahms PC1. I wanted to grab his neck and rattle his brains.
My... God... I can't remember ever having heard a work conducted so...
slow... ly... to no point whatever. No, it didn't fall apart, but neither
did it cohere. I've heard the piece dozens of times, but could barely follow
the music's line. Rutle was thoroughly enjoying himself, however, making big
gestures and grinning from ear to ear, no doubt in appreciation of his skill
at getting the tempo down to a speed that would have doubtless caused Brahms
(had he been at the concert) to commit murder. I supposed Daniel Barenboim
has to take at least half the blame, as well.
I also realized that Rutle strongly resembles Jeremy Wade (the host of
"River Monsters") with a fright wig.
--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical/c/5WTf-kj6kP8
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