Discussion:
The ten most underrated composers
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MIFrost
2014-07-18 15:02:31 UTC
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http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/most-underrated-composers/?cmpid=E.Classic_Newsletter_Notes_2014.07.18&cmp=EMC-NEO

For your enjoyment.

MIFrost
Bozo
2014-07-18 15:40:23 UTC
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Post by MIFrost
http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/most-underrated-composers
Thanks !

While I agree with some on the list , eg. Finzi,Scriabin , would also consider these 10 :

Nicholas Flagello
Geirr Tveitt
Eino Rautavaara
Heino Eller
Alexander Mosolov
Arthur Lourie
EJ Moeran
Sergei Bortkiewicz
Kevin Oldham
George Lloyd
Oscar
2014-07-18 18:48:10 UTC
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Post by Bozo
Geirr Tveitt
YESSS!
HT
2014-07-18 21:49:54 UTC
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Steve,

None of the ones you mentioned but what about, with the exception of Tveitt:

Shchedrin
Tischtschenko
Milhaud
Dutilleux
Antheil
Szymanowski
Hahn
Grainger
Ponce
Kabalevsky <g>

Henk
Bozo
2014-07-19 02:08:42 UTC
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Post by HT
Shchedrin
Tischtschenko
Milhaud
Dutilleux
Antheil
Szymanowski
Hahn
Grainger
Ponce
Kabalevsky <g>
Henk
Agree about Ponce,Szymanowski,Antheil,Dutilleux ( !! ),Milhaud, Tischenko. I don't think I have heard any of the others' works I liked much.
Herman
2014-07-19 07:24:27 UTC
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I don't think Dutilleux is most underrated at all. His reputation is very high; same for Elliott Carter. It's pretty complex contemporary music, and so it's no use expecting to get Dutilleux on every concert program (and most people don't go to concerts anyway). His discography is fairly large.

Milhaud, obviously, shot himself in the foot, retrospectively by composing such a huge oeuvre no one knows where to begin. Same with Hindemith. And, in a way, Haydn, whose reputation would arguably be bigger if he'd composed less, and more 'name' works.
Oscar
2014-07-19 03:41:40 UTC
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I think Szymanowski is getting his due. I have attended concerts of his music in Los Angeles and St. Louis, and recordings are hardly scarce anymore. So 'underrated' no more, IMHO.

Grainger and Milhaud. Good call, Henk.
Oscar
2014-07-19 04:08:22 UTC
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Post by HT
Dutilleux
Henk, should you not already know there is a new integrale set on DG via Universal Classics France http://tinyurl.com/o4hlhnw It's compiled from several different, unaffiliated labels, such as ECM, EMI France, DG, etc., with recordings dating from 1942 to 1997. I don't have much Dutilleux, so this would be a nice catch-all collection.

Official blurb:

<< In this unique edition, Deutsche Grammophon and Universal Classics France pay a long awaited tribute to the music of Henri Dutilleux, one of the greatest composers of the 20th century, who died in May 2013 at the age of 97.

The number of works by Henri Dutilleux hardly exceeds 30 (with the exception of youth compositions, incidental music and film scores, rejected by the composer himself). The new Henri Dutilleux Edition brings together the majority of his works, drawing from recordings in the Universal catalogue and those of partner labels.

Henri Dutilleux's work is both instinctive and refined. Few musicians have been during their lifetime as much respected and admired alike by music lovers, musicologists, historians and musicians. This outstanding set is a great tribute to an 'unclassifiable' musician and composer, whose music already has a place in history.

"With the death of Elliott Carter late last year, Dutilleux represented a generation of musicians with roots almost back into the 19th century; certainly his music can be seen in a direct line from that of his great predecessors Debussy and Ravel." Gramophone >>
Terry
2014-07-19 10:09:58 UTC
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Post by HT
Steve,
Shchedrin
Tischtschenko
Milhaud
Dutilleux
Antheil
Szymanowski
Hahn
Grainger
Ponce
Kabalevsky <g>
Henk
Poulenc is the most obviously underrated composer of all. A modest total output, but so much that actually sees the light of day: Concerto Champetre; Carmelites; les Biches and the organ concerto pretty well cut it out. Even Babar doesn't get out much anymore.
HT
2014-07-18 15:43:36 UTC
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Hmmm.
I do rate Scriabin higher than Rachmaninoff and Shostakovich.
FInzi, Arnold and Zelenka are known unknowns.
Fanny Mendelssohn, Korngold, Meyerbeer and Salieri are uninteresting.
Sullivan is fun to listen to, but that's all.
Respighi is very uneven.

Henk
Christopher Webber
2014-07-18 16:34:55 UTC
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Post by HT
Sullivan is fun to listen to, but that's all.
"That's all"? It seems a considerable amount. "Fun" seems a good place
to start, and even to to finish.

Yet half a century on from first hearing his music - and quite outside
the popular Gilbertian masterpieces - the more I listen to 'Ivanhoe',
'The Golden Legend' (under Mackerras), the incidental music to 'The
Tempest', 'Merchant of Venice' and 'Henry VIII' and many other works,
the more fun and spiritual pleasure I get from this decidedly
under-rated composer.

He refreshes the parts that so many other composers fail to reach.
HT
2014-07-18 17:40:45 UTC
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Christopher,

I must admit that I did only hear some of what you call his Gilbertian pieces - and of course The Lost Chord ... Following your advice I listened on YT to some of the pieces you mentioned, as well as his Irish symphony and I agree with you: it's all very easy to listen to, even the funeral march I happened to stumble upon.

Thanks!
Henk
Christopher Webber
2014-07-18 17:59:03 UTC
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Post by HT
Christopher,
I must admit that I did only hear some of what you call his Gilbertian pieces - and of course The Lost Chord ... Following your advice I listened on YT to some of the pieces you mentioned, as well as his Irish symphony and I agree with you: it's all very easy to listen to, even the funeral march I happened to stumble upon.
Thanks!
Henk
Delighted you gave them a go, Henk: I hope this is the start of a
"beautiful relationship" between you and dear Sir Arthur.

The Irish Symphony is a good case in point: it *is* very easy to listen
to, as you say, yet its delicacy and charm only grow with the years.
Sullivan was a great lover of Schubert at a time when not too many
people were. In 1867, on an expedition to Vienna, he and George Grove
actually rediscovered the 'Rosamunde' incidental music, long though
lost, in the bottom of a cupboard! And Sullivan's his own music has, for
me, much of the earlier composer's sublime ease. It can affect one
deeply without seeming to try.

Mackerras, of course, had Sullivan up there with Mozart, Dvorak and
Janacek in his own personal pantheon: as an unbiased Aussie, he always
felt that it was pure English snobbery which made people "forget"
Sullivan when it came to listing the Great British Composers.
Al Eisner
2014-07-18 19:47:19 UTC
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Mackerras, of course, had Sullivan up there with Mozart, Dvorak and Janacek
in his own personal pantheon: as an unbiased Aussie, he always felt that it
was pure English snobbery which made people "forget" Sullivan when it came to
listing the Great British Composers.
You are claiming Mozart, Dvorak and Janacek now? And I thought the
days of the British empire were over....
--
Al Eisner
Terry
2014-07-19 10:05:24 UTC
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Post by Al Eisner
Mackerras, of course, had Sullivan up there with Mozart, Dvorak and Janacek
in his own personal pantheon: as an unbiased Aussie, he always felt that it
was pure English snobbery which made people "forget" Sullivan when it came to
listing the Great British Composers.
You are claiming Mozart, Dvorak and Janacek now? And I thought the
days of the British empire were over....
--
Al Eisner
Very poor attention span, Al.
Al Eisner
2014-07-20 03:06:21 UTC
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Post by Terry
Post by Al Eisner
Mackerras, of course, had Sullivan up there with Mozart, Dvorak and Janacek
in his own personal pantheon: as an unbiased Aussie, he always felt that it
was pure English snobbery which made people "forget" Sullivan when it came to
listing the Great British Composers.
You are claiming Mozart, Dvorak and Janacek now? And I thought the
days of the British empire were over....
Very poor attention span, Al.
Perhaps, but not by me.
--
Al Eisner
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-20 08:17:15 UTC
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Post by Al Eisner
Post by Terry
Post by Al Eisner
Mackerras, of course, had Sullivan up there with Mozart, Dvorak and Janacek
in his own personal pantheon: as an unbiased Aussie, he always felt that it
was pure English snobbery which made people "forget" Sullivan when it came to
listing the Great British Composers.
You are claiming Mozart, Dvorak and Janacek now? And I thought the
days of the British empire were over....
Very poor attention span, Al.
Perhaps, but not by me.
--
Al Eisner
That's a colon in there, nebbich.

Incidentally G&S used to be just as popular in Melbourne as it was in the UK. Mackerras was a Sydneysider but I imagine the same would have applied in that city as well.

Hardly fits the Great Aussie Rugged Stockman Image does it, but there we are.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Christopher Webber
2014-07-20 09:54:43 UTC
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Post by Andrew Clarke
Incidentally G&S used to be just as popular in Melbourne as it was in the UK. Mackerras was a Sydneysider but I imagine the same would have applied in that city as well.
Malcolm Williamson (another Sydneysider) didn't share Mackerras's
opinion of G&S, being quoted on one arrival back home as saying that the
future of Australian opera didn't depend on the plethora of local
amateur companies doing "Gilbert and Sullivan and that muck". He was
embarrassed when the newspaper quote appeared, to discover that some of
his relations were even at that moment in the final stages of producing
'The Mikado' in the city!

Mackerras's early reputation was, of course, cemented by his admirable
'Pineapple Poll' ballet music, which demonstrates his compendious
knowledge of Sullivan, with and without Gilbert.
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-23 09:04:59 UTC
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Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Andrew Clarke
Incidentally G&S used to be just as popular in Melbourne as it was in the UK. Mackerras was a Sydneysider but I imagine the same would have applied in that city as well.
Malcolm Williamson (another Sydneysider) didn't share Mackerras's
opinion of G&S, being quoted on one arrival back home as saying that the
future of Australian opera didn't depend on the plethora of local
amateur companies doing "Gilbert and Sullivan and that muck". He was
embarrassed when the newspaper quote appeared, to discover that some of
his relations were even at that moment in the final stages of producing
'The Mikado' in the city!
Mackerras's early reputation was, of course, cemented by his admirable
'Pineapple Poll' ballet music, which demonstrates his compendious
knowledge of Sullivan, with and without Gilbert.
Well, "Give 'em muck," said Dame Nellie ...

I wonder if anyone will ever create a ballet suite based on memorable tunes from the works of Malcolm Williamson? I can think of one problem right now ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Christopher Webber
2014-07-23 09:52:16 UTC
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Post by Andrew Clarke
I wonder if anyone will ever create a ballet suite based on memorable tunes from the works of Malcolm Williamson? I can think of one problem right now ...
Do you know his orchestral suite from the opera 'Our Man in Havana'?
Enough tunes there to fill half a dozen operas by anyone else of the
time, and that's just for starters!

This is the version to get:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Epitaphs-ACS-M-Williamson/dp/B001HDO3RK

If there's one thing even Malcolm's detractors could not gainsay, it was
melodic facility. In fact, it was the tunes that some of the more
stuffed-sofa critics objected to.
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-23 16:18:03 UTC
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Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Andrew Clarke
I wonder if anyone will ever create a ballet suite based on memorable tunes from the works of Malcolm Williamson? I can think of one problem right now ...
Do you know his orchestral suite from the opera 'Our Man in Havana'?
Enough tunes there to fill half a dozen operas by anyone else of the
time, and that's just for starters!
I have to admit that I had completely forgotten about Malcolm Williamson. I don't know how often he's performed in the land of his birth, but I suspect not very often.

It's reassuring that the Tasmanian Symphony Orchestra have recorded him, and I might mention that the TSO, based in Australia's smallest state and therefore without access to the mineral wealth of, say, Queensland or Western Australia, has turned itself into an excellent chamber orchestra in order to live within its means.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Christopher Webber
2014-07-23 17:24:15 UTC
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Post by Andrew Clarke
I have to admit that I had completely forgotten about Malcolm Williamson. I don't know how often he's performed in the land of his birth, but I suspect not very often.
My understanding is that, now he's no longer around, he's being very
much "reclaimed" by the land of his birth - in which he continued to
spend much time while he was still active, working in an inspiring way
with disabled and autistic children, for example, into his sixties.

His operas are once again attracting plenty of attention (there's just
been a hit production of 'Julius Caesar Jones' in France of all places!)
and his publishers are getting their act together too: the recent set of
the Piano Concertos on Hyperion has proved an unexpected best seller for
the company.

At last the tide is turning: such a pity the man himself is not around
to witness it.
Post by Andrew Clarke
It's reassuring that the Tasmanian Symphony Orchestra have recorded him, and I might mention that the TSO, based in Australia's smallest state and therefore without access to the mineral wealth of, say, Queensland or Western Australia, has turned itself into an excellent chamber orchestra in order to live within its means.
That's interesting to know. I've always really liked the TSO's work and
always look out for them on disc.
Terry
2014-07-24 15:15:54 UTC
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Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Andrew Clarke
I have to admit that I had completely forgotten about Malcolm Williamson. I don't know how often he's performed in the land of his birth, but I suspect not very often.
My understanding is that, now he's no longer around, he's being very
much "reclaimed" by the land of his birth - in which he continued to
spend much time while he was still active, working in an inspiring way
with disabled and autistic children, for example, into his sixties.
His operas are once again attracting plenty of attention (there's just
been a hit production of 'Julius Caesar Jones' in France of all places!)
and his publishers are getting their act together too: the recent set of
the Piano Concertos on Hyperion has proved an unexpected best seller for
the company.
At last the tide is turning: such a pity the man himself is not around
to witness it.
Post by Andrew Clarke
It's reassuring that the Tasmanian Symphony Orchestra have recorded him, and I might mention that the TSO, based in Australia's smallest state and therefore without access to the mineral wealth of, say, Queensland or Western Australia, has turned itself into an excellent chamber orchestra in order to live within its means.
That's interesting to know. I've always really liked the TSO's work and
always look out for them on disc.
I wish I could agree with you, but really, he's hardly played in Australia at all.
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-25 06:53:32 UTC
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Post by Terry
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Andrew Clarke
I have to admit that I had completely forgotten about Malcolm Williamson. I don't know how often he's performed in the land of his birth, but I suspect not very often.
My understanding is that, now he's no longer around, he's being very
much "reclaimed" by the land of his birth - in which he continued to
spend much time while he was still active, working in an inspiring way
with disabled and autistic children, for example, into his sixties.
His operas are once again attracting plenty of attention (there's just
been a hit production of 'Julius Caesar Jones' in France of all places!)
and his publishers are getting their act together too: the recent set of
the Piano Concertos on Hyperion has proved an unexpected best seller for
the company.
At last the tide is turning: such a pity the man himself is not around
to witness it.
Post by Andrew Clarke
It's reassuring that the Tasmanian Symphony Orchestra have recorded him, and I might mention that the TSO, based in Australia's smallest state and therefore without access to the mineral wealth of, say, Queensland or Western Australia, has turned itself into an excellent chamber orchestra in order to live within its means.
That's interesting to know. I've always really liked the TSO's work and
always look out for them on disc.
I wish I could agree with you, but really, he's hardly played in Australia at all.
It's nearly all Peter Sculthorpe and Ross Edwards so far as ABC Classic FM is concerned. We don't hear any thing from the most Modernist of Australian composers, Richard Meale, who almost self-destructed on heroin, before resurfacing, briefly, as a traditionalist.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Christopher Webber
2014-07-25 08:24:43 UTC
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Post by Andrew Clarke
It's nearly all Peter Sculthorpe and Ross Edwards so far as ABC Classic FM is concerned. We don't hear any thing from the most Modernist of Australian composers, Richard Meale, who almost self-destructed on heroin, before resurfacing, briefly, as a traditionalist.
Very sorry to hear about Richard Meale's misfortunes - I didn't know
about that aspect of his life, and had enjoyed his opera 'Voss'
considerably.

Really though, Williamson is a league apart from his compatriots: it has
taken a long time for the Australian musical establishment (not least
the serialist ones) to forgive his "defection" to the UK!
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-25 22:53:19 UTC
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Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Andrew Clarke
It's nearly all Peter Sculthorpe and Ross Edwards so far as ABC Classic FM is concerned. We don't hear any thing from the most Modernist of Australian composers, Richard Meale, who almost self-destructed on heroin, before resurfacing, briefly, as a traditionalist.
Very sorry to hear about Richard Meale's misfortunes - I didn't know
about that aspect of his life, and had enjoyed his opera 'Voss'
considerably.
Really though, Williamson is a league apart from his compatriots: it has
taken a long time for the Australian musical establishment (not least
the serialist ones) to forgive his "defection" to the UK!
For Richard Meale before Voss see

http://discoveraustralianmusic.com/recording/cantilena-pacifica/

I remember being very impressed by hearing "Clouds Now and Then" presented by the composer when I was a student in Adelaide. You never hear it now.

Australian serialism had a very short lifespan. Meale's later works seem to be shamelessly populist, e.g. little tone poems about Australian country towns on Anzac Day.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Christopher Webber
2014-07-26 08:43:02 UTC
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Post by Andrew Clarke
For Richard Meale before Voss see
http://discoveraustralianmusic.com/recording/cantilena-pacifica/
Thank you Andrew - what a neatly-designed and useful website, too.
Ray Hall
2014-07-27 02:38:22 UTC
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Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Andrew Clarke
For Richard Meale before Voss see
http://discoveraustralianmusic.com/recording/cantilena-pacifica/
Thank you Andrew - what a neatly-designed and useful website, too.
Thx. Do you know the story behind there (apparently) being no string
quartet No.1 for the Carl Vine quartet disc. Did he disown it?

Ray Hall, Taree
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-27 07:36:17 UTC
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Post by Ray Hall
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Andrew Clarke
For Richard Meale before Voss see
http://discoveraustralianmusic.com/recording/cantilena-pacifica/
Thank you Andrew - what a neatly-designed and useful website, too.
Thx. Do you know the story behind there (apparently) being no string
quartet No.1 for the Carl Vine quartet disc. Did he disown it?
Ray Hall, Taree
See http://www.australianmusiccentre.com.au/work/vine-carl-knips-suite

It's explained at the top that the Knips Suite is sometimes called the String 4tet no. 1

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Bozo
2014-07-27 14:18:03 UTC
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Are Carl Vine's works played in Australia ? TIA.
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-27 18:35:50 UTC
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Post by Bozo
Are Carl Vine's works played in Australia ? TIA.
Yes, they are. He's Artistic Director of Musica Viva, which certainly helps.

I have to admit that from here in Canberra it's hard to know who's being played in and what isn't. Our own once-proud Canberra School of Music has declined into a pale shadow of its former self, due to far too few students, far too many senior lecturers, and a cost-cutting vice-chancellor at the Australian National University of which it is part. It's still there, but it's not the mover and shaker it once was, although this looks interesting:

http://music.anu.edu.au/orfeo

Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane is where it's happening, mostly. Music reviews are hard to find.

Possibly the best guide to who's in and who's out is the Classic FM playlist, which you can find at

http://www.abc.net.au/classic/music-listings/

Nigel Westlake is there and so, from time to time, is Nigel Butterley.

Speaking of in-and-out, today's playlist features Le Tombeau de Liberace by Daugherty. Anybody know it?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Bozo
2014-07-27 20:30:00 UTC
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Speaking of in-and-out, today's playlist features Le Tombeau de Liberace by >Daugherty. Anybody know it?
Thanks for the info on Vine. I really like his piano music , as well as Williamson's. Pianist Benjamin Boren has a cd of all 3 Vine piano sonatas plus the Anna Preludes I can recommend.I'm looking for the Vine piano concertos.

And thanks for the Liberace tip. I just posted a YT performance.

My wife and I are also fans of Australian wines. Lindemann has a chardonnay ( 65 % ) ,riesling ( 35 % ) blend,a great, cheap Summer wine , not to mention your great shiraz's ( shirazes ? ). Toohey's has a great beer commercial,but the beer hard to find in the US ?
Ray Hall
2014-07-28 04:12:09 UTC
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Post by Bozo
My wife and I are also fans of Australian wines. Lindemann has a
chardonnay ( 65 % ) ,riesling ( 35 % ) blend,a great, cheap Summer

wine , not to mention your great shiraz's ( shirazes ? ). Toohey's

has a great beer commercial,but the beer hard to find in the US ?
Tooheys is mostly drunk in Sydney, whereas in other main cities they
drink their own particular brews.

And yes, the beer commercials are extremely good.

Ray Hall, Taree
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-29 07:48:35 UTC
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Post by Bozo
Post by Bozo
My wife and I are also fans of Australian wines. Lindemann has a
chardonnay ( 65 % ) ,riesling ( 35 % ) blend,a great, cheap Summer
wine , not to mention your great shiraz's ( shirazes ? ). Toohey's
has a great beer commercial,but the beer hard to find in the US ?
Tooheys is mostly drunk in Sydney, whereas in other main cities they
drink their own particular brews.
And yes, the beer commercials are extremely good.
Ray Hall, Taree
Perhaps it's because I live in Canberra, but beers from all states are available here, even "on tap". When dining out on Thai/Malay/Chinese cuisine - now very popular in Australia - I usually buy an Asian beer - Ahasi, Tsing Tao, Singha - which suits that cuisine perfectly, being lighter and less bitter than Australian beers.

You do have to look hard for the two of the South Australian beers:

Southwark - bathwater
West End - other end of same bath

but Coopers - brewed in the bottle - is fine.

The rise and rise of Australian wine has a lot to do with the postwar immigrations from Central Europe - up until that time, drinking wine with meals was rare. One of my favourite Australian advertisements used to appear printed on tin and screwed to the outside wall of Sydney pubs: it featured a young couple in evening dress seated at a table and approached by a genial looking waiter bearing a silver tray on which were two glasses and a bottle of Reschs' DA (= Dinner Ale) The trendier suburbs of Edna Everage's Melbourne were known in the 1960s as "The Sherry Belt" because these were people who drank sherry all the year round and not just at Christmas or after funerals. But wine-drinking really took off after Australians invented the wine-cask, whose ingenious design prevented the contents being oxydised, so that you didn't have to drink the lot in one evening.

This did lead to a lot of wine snobbery of course, and led to a new social division between wine drinkers (the sensitive souls) and the beer drinkers (the plebs). The best way for a visitor to avoid the more pretentious element is to tour the winemaking regions and talk to the people who either make the stuff or grow the grapes. You're looking at e.g. the Barossa Valley in South Australia the Hunter Valley in New South Wales, the Yarra Valley in Victoria, the Margaret River region in Western Australia and many more.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Bozo
2014-07-29 12:12:09 UTC
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Thanks for the info on Australian beer/ wine.

Another good ad would be a couple sitting on their veranda watching a sunset over the ocean, bottle of Penfolds, and the " Chorale" from Vine's " Anne Landa " Preludes .

The Vine ( music, not the wine ) :

Andrew Clarke
2014-07-29 20:38:33 UTC
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Post by Bozo
Thanks for the info on Australian beer/ wine.
Another good ad would be a couple sitting on their veranda watching a sunset over the ocean, bottle of Penfolds, and the " Chorale" from Vine's " Anne Landa " Preludes .
The Vine ( music, not the wine ) : http://youtu.be/fFqJKPg2yaE
Or a Melbourne couple overlooking Port Phillip Bay with a bottle of chardonnay, walzing to the strains of



There are some great white wines from New Zealand BTW

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-28 20:44:45 UTC
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Post by Andrew Clarke
Australian serialism had a very short lifespan. Meale's later works seem
to be shamelessly populist, e.g. little tone poems about Australian
country towns on Anzac Day.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
How does Felix Werder fit into your view of the Australian serial
community? A friend of mine was one of his composition students.
Firstly, an important correction. It isn't Richard Meale who writes little tone poems about country towns, if only because he died in 2009. I was referring to Peter Sculthorpe who is still with us. The mind went one way and my two typing fingers went another :-(

Felix Werder's output seems to have sunk without trace. He's acknowledged as an important figure, introducing some uncompromisingly avant-garde techniques into the fairly stuffy new music scene in Melbourne, with his own musical origins firmly based in Vienna (2nd School) and Darmstadt. I used to hear his music on the radio in the 1960s, and try as I might I couldn't take to it.

He was well-known as a polemicist, especially in his concert reviews for "The Age" in Melbourne, which was in those days a great newspaper. The merits of the performance tended to be swamped by his lopsided opinions of the composer, so if you had the temerity to perform "The Planets" - however brilliantly - Werder would dismiss the performance in a couple of lines as "an overblown astrology column" or something equally damning.

He absolutely loathed the entire output of Johannes Brahms, and this proved to be his undoing. His practice was to leave the concert whenever a Brahms work was to be played, and to fudge a "review" of the performance later. Unfortunately on one fatal night, there was a last minute change in the program and Werder didn't hear the announcement ...

I also remember hearing a radio interview with him in which he described putting on a new work when the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra was on strike. (The MSO used to be world renowned for its bitchiness, and the Musicians Union rep - a harpist - was fairly quick on the trigger.) Reaching over to play a few notes on the tymps himself, he was told by one of the other musicians that if he so much as picked up the drumsticks, nobody in the room would ever play for him again. Unfazed, he went out next day and hired a group of jazz musicians. "Well," Werder said in the interview, "I had been working with the wrong people. These players knew exactly what I wanted without having to be told ... "

The other significant thing about Werder is that he was a "Dunera boy". The "Dunera" was a transport ship that brought European internees from Liverpool to Australia in 1940 in appalling conditions that eventually led to at least one court-martial and compensation to the unwilling passengers. Many of them stayed in Australia, and like Werder made a significant contribution to their adopted country.

With apologies to Richard Meale's memory,

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Christopher Webber
2014-07-28 21:05:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Lovely stories about Werder, Andrew, thank you. Especially the one about
"Johannes' Revenge"!

There's a Williamson story about him too:

" Attending Felix Werder's talk on 'The Composer and New Sounds',
Malcolm grew steadily more irritated and restless. Eventually he could
endure Werder's trenchant comments no longer and with angry cries of
'Bullshit' made a noisy departure from the hall. Unfortunately Werder,
as the music critic of Melbourne's highly influential newspaper The Age,
was able to wreak full revenge, reviewing Malcolm's works thereafter
quite mercilessly. He was to describe the First Piano Sonata, for
example, as 'an amateurish, listener-insulting concoction by that
anti-talent Malcolm Williamson'. "

According to the Williamson biography, when all other arguments failed,
Werder was apt to play his trump card: that when he was a boy, he'd
known Schoenberg personally!
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-29 00:20:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Christopher Webber
Unfortunately Werder,
as the music critic of Melbourne's highly influential newspaper The Age,
was able to wreak full revenge, reviewing Malcolm's works thereafter
quite mercilessly. He was to describe the First Piano Sonata, for
example, as 'an amateurish, listener-insulting concoction by that
anti-talent Malcolm Williamson'. "
The Age too has suffered retribution for its sins, being now a pale latte-stained shadow of its former magisterial self.
Post by Christopher Webber
According to the Williamson biography, when all other arguments failed,
Werder was apt to play his trump card: that when he was a boy, he'd
known Schoenberg personally!
I have to admit that the Werder I heard as a teenager reminded me of the Gerard Hoffnung cartoon of a middle-aged man crouched in a corner, in the shadow of an enormously tall table on which there is a gramophone playing "Wozzeck". The bit that goes "Der Mond [not Greensleeves]ist Blutig". There may have been lighter moments, but I can't remember any.

Melbourne appears to have a fatal attraction for dour, polemical types like Werder. At the University of Melbourne we had Prof. S. L. Goldberg, who wrote some excellent books on Joyce and Shakespeare, but whose finesse in destroying other people's careers made Isaac Stern look like Little Orphan Annie.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Bozo
2014-07-29 02:34:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Melbourne appears to have a fatal attraction for dour
This piece in The Australian about the late Geoffrey Tozer always affects me :

http://tinyurl.com/nzwj347

I have Tozer's Chandos set of the complete Medtner Piano Sonatas ,and one of Tozer playing Arthur Schnabel's Piano Sonata and wonderful Dance Suite.
Matthew B. Tepper
2014-07-31 19:47:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bozo
Post by Andrew Clarke
Melbourne appears to have a fatal attraction for dour
http://tinyurl.com/nzwj347
I have Tozer's Chandos set of the complete Medtner Piano Sonatas, and one
of Tozer playing Arthur Schnabel's Piano Sonata and wonderful Dance
Suite.
I only know Tozer from his Medtner, but it might be interesting to learn more
about his friendship with Larry Sitsky, based on a single remark in Sitsky's
Wikipedia entry.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Bozo
2014-07-31 20:22:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In addition to Tozer's Medtner Sonata set, I can recommend Tozer's Schnabel cd , and recall I also have Tozer's cd of the Korngold Piano Sonatas, the 2nd of which Schnabel also championed for awhile.Korngold wrote them when he was 3 or something.

Whenever someone announces he/she has done something " as a matter of principle", I am always suspicious they doth protest too much.
John Wiser
2014-07-31 21:09:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bozo
In addition to Tozer's Medtner Sonata set, I can recommend Tozer's Schnabel cd , and recall I also
have Tozer's cd of the Korngold Piano Sonatas, the 2nd of which Schnabel also championed for
awhile.Korngold wrote them when he was 3 or something.
Whenever someone announces he/she has done something " as a matter of principle", I am always
suspicious they doth protest too much.
Tozer's selection of Busoni's solo piano music,
and his accounts of Alan Rawsthorne's concertos,
are both keepers.

jdw
Bozo
2014-07-31 23:38:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Wiser
Tozer's selection of Busoni's solo piano music,
and his accounts of Alan Rawsthorne's concertos,
are both keepers.
Thanks, both still at Amazon-US, as are quite a surprising number of other Tozer cd's including the Schnabel, Korngold,Bartok,Liszt, McEwen, Medtner, Tchaikovsky 3rd Concerto, and more.
Matthew B. Tepper
2014-08-01 20:12:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bozo
Tozer's selection of Busoni's solo piano music, and his accounts of Alan
Rawsthorne's concertos, are both keepers.
Thanks, both still at Amazon-US, as are quite a surprising number of
other Tozer cd's including the Schnabel, Korngold, Bartok, Liszt, McEwen,
Medtner, Tchaikovsky 3rd Concerto, and more.
These are all helpful recommendations.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
John Wiser
2014-07-31 21:06:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Bozo
Post by Andrew Clarke
Melbourne appears to have a fatal attraction for dour
http://tinyurl.com/nzwj347
I have Tozer's Chandos set of the complete Medtner Piano Sonatas, and one
of Tozer playing Arthur Schnabel's Piano Sonata and wonderful Dance
Suite.
I only know Tozer from his Medtner, but it might be interesting to learn more
about his friendship with Larry Sitsky, based on a single remark in Sitsky's
Wikipedia entry.
...and then again, it might not.

jdw
Matthew B. Tepper
2014-07-28 23:51:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Andrew Clarke
Australian serialism had a very short lifespan. Meale's later works
seem to be shamelessly populist, e.g. little tone poems about
Australian country towns on Anzac Day.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
How does Felix Werder fit into your view of the Australian serial
community? A friend of mine was one of his composition students.
Firstly, an important correction. It isn't Richard Meale who writes
little tone poems about country towns, if only because he died in 2009.
I was referring to Peter Sculthorpe who is still with us. The mind went
one way and my two typing fingers went another :-(
Felix Werder's output seems to have sunk without trace. He's
acknowledged as an important figure, introducing some uncompromisingly
avant-garde techniques into the fairly stuffy new music scene in
Melbourne, with his own musical origins firmly based in Vienna (2nd
School) and Darmstadt. I used to hear his music on the radio in the
1960s, and try as I might I couldn't take to it.
He was well-known as a polemicist, especially in his concert reviews for
"The Age" in Melbourne, which was in those days a great newspaper. The
merits of the performance tended to be swamped by his lopsided opinions
of the composer, so if you had the temerity to perform "The Planets" -
however brilliantly - Werder would dismiss the performance in a couple of
lines as "an overblown astrology column" or something equally damning.
He absolutely loathed the entire output of Johannes Brahms, and this
proved to be his undoing. His practice was to leave the concert whenever
a Brahms work was to be played, and to fudge a "review" of the
performance later. Unfortunately on one fatal night, there was a last
minute change in the program and Werder didn't hear the announcement ...
I also remember hearing a radio interview with him in which he described
putting on a new work when the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra was on
strike. (The MSO used to be world renowned for its bitchiness, and the
Musicians Union rep - a harpist - was fairly quick on the trigger.)
Reaching over to play a few notes on the tymps himself, he was told by
one of the other musicians that if he so much as picked up the
drumsticks, nobody in the room would ever play for him again. Unfazed,
he went out next day and hired a group of jazz musicians. "Well," Werder
said in the interview, "I had been working with the wrong people. These
players knew exactly what I wanted without having to be told ... "
The other significant thing about Werder is that he was a "Dunera boy".
The "Dunera" was a transport ship that brought European internees from
Liverpool to Australia in 1940 in appalling conditions that eventually
led to at least one court-martial and compensation to the unwilling
passengers. Many of them stayed in Australia, and like Werder made a
significant contribution to their adopted country.
With apologies to Richard Meale's memory,
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Thanks very much for your discourse on Werder, as well as the corrections
with regard to Meale. I must admit my ignorance with regard to currently
or lately active Australian composers; my knowledge seems limited to Vine
and Sculthorpe. You've given me some ideas for further investigation.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-29 07:23:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Andrew Clarke
Australian serialism had a very short lifespan. Meale's later works
seem to be shamelessly populist, e.g. little tone poems about
Australian country towns on Anzac Day.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
How does Felix Werder fit into your view of the Australian serial
community? A friend of mine was one of his composition students.
Firstly, an important correction. It isn't Richard Meale who writes
little tone poems about country towns, if only because he died in 2009.
I was referring to Peter Sculthorpe who is still with us. The mind went
one way and my two typing fingers went another :-(
Felix Werder's output seems to have sunk without trace. He's
acknowledged as an important figure, introducing some uncompromisingly
avant-garde techniques into the fairly stuffy new music scene in
Melbourne, with his own musical origins firmly based in Vienna (2nd
School) and Darmstadt. I used to hear his music on the radio in the
1960s, and try as I might I couldn't take to it.
He was well-known as a polemicist, especially in his concert reviews for
"The Age" in Melbourne, which was in those days a great newspaper. The
merits of the performance tended to be swamped by his lopsided opinions
of the composer, so if you had the temerity to perform "The Planets" -
however brilliantly - Werder would dismiss the performance in a couple of
lines as "an overblown astrology column" or something equally damning.
He absolutely loathed the entire output of Johannes Brahms, and this
proved to be his undoing. His practice was to leave the concert whenever
a Brahms work was to be played, and to fudge a "review" of the
performance later. Unfortunately on one fatal night, there was a last
minute change in the program and Werder didn't hear the announcement ...
I also remember hearing a radio interview with him in which he described
putting on a new work when the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra was on
strike. (The MSO used to be world renowned for its bitchiness, and the
Musicians Union rep - a harpist - was fairly quick on the trigger.)
Reaching over to play a few notes on the tymps himself, he was told by
one of the other musicians that if he so much as picked up the
drumsticks, nobody in the room would ever play for him again. Unfazed,
he went out next day and hired a group of jazz musicians. "Well," Werder
said in the interview, "I had been working with the wrong people. These
players knew exactly what I wanted without having to be told ... "
The other significant thing about Werder is that he was a "Dunera boy".
The "Dunera" was a transport ship that brought European internees from
Liverpool to Australia in 1940 in appalling conditions that eventually
led to at least one court-martial and compensation to the unwilling
passengers. Many of them stayed in Australia, and like Werder made a
significant contribution to their adopted country.
With apologies to Richard Meale's memory,
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Thanks very much for your discourse on Werder, as well as the corrections
with regard to Meale. I must admit my ignorance with regard to currently
or lately active Australian composers; my knowledge seems limited to Vine
and Sculthorpe. You've given me some ideas for further investigation.
Another Australian composer who might interest you is Larry Sitsky, much venerated but not recorded. An inspiring teacher, he chose to be located within the Jazz School (now eviscerated) at the Canberra School of Music rather than amongst the classical crowd.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Sitsky

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Terry
2014-08-02 04:19:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Andrew Clarke
Australian serialism had a very short lifespan. Meale's later works seem
to be shamelessly populist, e.g. little tone poems about Australian
country towns on Anzac Day.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
How does Felix Werder fit into your view of the Australian serial
community? A friend of mine was one of his composition students.
Firstly, an important correction. It isn't Richard Meale who writes little tone poems about country towns, if only because he died in 2009. I was referring to Peter Sculthorpe who is still with us. The mind went one way and my two typing fingers went another :-(
Felix Werder's output seems to have sunk without trace. He's acknowledged as an important figure, introducing some uncompromisingly avant-garde techniques into the fairly stuffy new music scene in Melbourne, with his own musical origins firmly based in Vienna (2nd School) and Darmstadt. I used to hear his music on the radio in the 1960s, and try as I might I couldn't take to it.
He was well-known as a polemicist, especially in his concert reviews for "The Age" in Melbourne, which was in those days a great newspaper. The merits of the performance tended to be swamped by his lopsided opinions of the composer, so if you had the temerity to perform "The Planets" - however brilliantly - Werder would dismiss the performance in a couple of lines as "an overblown astrology column" or something equally damning.
He absolutely loathed the entire output of Johannes Brahms, and this proved to be his undoing. His practice was to leave the concert whenever a Brahms work was to be played, and to fudge a "review" of the performance later. Unfortunately on one fatal night, there was a last minute change in the program and Werder didn't hear the announcement ...
I also remember hearing a radio interview with him in which he described putting on a new work when the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra was on strike. (The MSO used to be world renowned for its bitchiness, and the Musicians Union rep - a harpist - was fairly quick on the trigger.) Reaching over to play a few notes on the tymps himself, he was told by one of the other musicians that if he so much as picked up the drumsticks, nobody in the room would ever play for him again. Unfazed, he went out next day and hired a group of jazz musicians. "Well," Werder said in the interview, "I had been working with the wrong people. These players knew exactly what I wanted without having to be told ... "
The other significant thing about Werder is that he was a "Dunera boy". The "Dunera" was a transport ship that brought European internees from Liverpool to Australia in 1940 in appalling conditions that eventually led to at least one court-martial and compensation to the unwilling passengers. Many of them stayed in Australia, and like Werder made a significant contribution to their adopted country.
With apologies to Richard Meale's memory,
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
I used to sing some of the songs of Dorian le Galienne, who was active at the same time as Werder. A composer worth resurrecting, I suspect.

I recall a radio series in which Werder promoted contemporary music of about 40 years ago. He brought into the studio a couple of principals from the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra, one of whom was clarinetist Eugene Danilov, if I remember correctly. Werder played a bit of "this modern stuff" (which might have been the title of the radio series, actually), involving extended clarinet techniques, and said to Danilov "now, wasn't this exciting!", to which Danilov replied, with his lugubrious Russian accent: "No. I didn't learn the clarinet to make awful sounds like that."
Andrew Clarke
2014-08-02 13:31:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Terry
I used to sing some of the songs of Dorian le Galienne, who was active at the same time as Werder. A composer worth resurrecting, I suspect.
I was thinking of Le Galienne and Clive Douglas, who used to get airplay in the sixties, but not now. I really can't remember anything of what I heard, and I don't remember the Le Galienne songs, only the orchestral music. Then of course there's Alfred Hill, who's been discussed in this group before.

One of the great ironies of Australian life is that the signature tune for "Blue Hills", an "iconic" Australian radio serial with a huge audience, was "Pastorale" written by an Englishman, Ronald Hanmer, who later emigrated to Brisbane:



The "big tune" always reminds me of one of the classic popular songs recorded by Jean Sablon



Andrew Clarke
Canberra
r***@gmail.com
2014-08-02 13:42:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Terry
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Andrew Clarke
Australian serialism had a very short lifespan. Meale's later works seem
to be shamelessly populist, e.g. little tone poems about Australian
country towns on Anzac Day.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
How does Felix Werder fit into your view of the Australian serial
community? A friend of mine was one of his composition students.
Firstly, an important correction. It isn't Richard Meale who writes little tone poems about country towns, if only because he died in 2009. I was referring to Peter Sculthorpe who is still with us. The mind went one way and my two typing fingers went another :-(
Felix Werder's output seems to have sunk without trace. He's acknowledged as an important figure, introducing some uncompromisingly avant-garde techniques into the fairly stuffy new music scene in Melbourne, with his own musical origins firmly based in Vienna (2nd School) and Darmstadt. I used to hear his music on the radio in the 1960s, and try as I might I couldn't take to it.
He was well-known as a polemicist, especially in his concert reviews for "The Age" in Melbourne, which was in those days a great newspaper. The merits of the performance tended to be swamped by his lopsided opinions of the composer, so if you had the temerity to perform "The Planets" - however brilliantly - Werder would dismiss the performance in a couple of lines as "an overblown astrology column" or something equally damning.
He absolutely loathed the entire output of Johannes Brahms, and this proved to be his undoing. His practice was to leave the concert whenever a Brahms work was to be played, and to fudge a "review" of the performance later. Unfortunately on one fatal night, there was a last minute change in the program and Werder didn't hear the announcement ...
I also remember hearing a radio interview with him in which he described putting on a new work when the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra was on strike. (The MSO used to be world renowned for its bitchiness, and the Musicians Union rep - a harpist - was fairly quick on the trigger.) Reaching over to play a few notes on the tymps himself, he was told by one of the other musicians that if he so much as picked up the drumsticks, nobody in the room would ever play for him again. Unfazed, he went out next day and hired a group of jazz musicians. "Well," Werder said in the interview, "I had been working with the wrong people. These players knew exactly what I wanted without having to be told ... "
The other significant thing about Werder is that he was a "Dunera boy". The "Dunera" was a transport ship that brought European internees from Liverpool to Australia in 1940 in appalling conditions that eventually led to at least one court-martial and compensation to the unwilling passengers. Many of them stayed in Australia, and like Werder made a significant contribution to their adopted country.
With apologies to Richard Meale's memory,
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
I used to sing some of the songs of Dorian le Galienne, who was active at the same time as Werder. A composer worth resurrecting, I suspect.
I recall a radio series in which Werder promoted contemporary music of about 40 years ago. He brought into the studio a couple of principals from the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra, one of whom was clarinetist Eugene Danilov, if I remember correctly. Werder played a bit of "this modern stuff" (which might have been the title of the radio series, actually), involving extended clarinet techniques, and said to Danilov "now, wasn't this exciting!", to which Danilov replied, with his lugubrious Russian accent: "No. I didn't learn the clarinet to make awful sounds like that."
Wonderful! Truth to power!
John Hood
2014-08-04 01:25:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Australian serialism had a very short lifespan. Meale's later works seem
to be shamelessly populist, e.g. little tone poems about Australian
country towns on Anzac Day.
Andrew Clarke
I once went to a lecture by Australian composer Peter Sculthorpe at the
University of Western Australia. He explained that during the 1960's he
taught serialism to students at Sydney Conservatorium.

During question time, I asked him (tongue in cheek) how many students went
on develop serial compositions. The answer was 'none'.

JH


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com
Bozo
2014-07-24 23:01:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
the recent set of the Piano Concertos on Hyperion has proved an unexpected best seller for
the company.
The 3rd Piano Concerto :


Thanks for the reminder. I have just ordered the Hyperion set. We are not of the same mind about Delius ( exception being his Double Concerto I liked ) , but are in accord on Williamson, at least the piano concertos. Surprised if the Aussie's no longer play his music, especially since Piers Lane is the pianist on the Hyperion set.

But, the Aussie's do have great beer commercials :




Bozo
2014-07-25 01:35:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
And Williamson's great 2nd Piano Concerto, with its wonderful slow mov. starting at about 4 :36 :


Christopher Webber
2014-07-25 08:27:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bozo
Surprised if the Aussie's no longer play his music, especially since Piers Lane is the pianist on the Hyperion set.
In fact, Bozo, they are starting to warm to Williamson again, after
decades of neglect. If you enjoy solo piano music there is a very good
set of his (excellent and enjoyable) solo piano music by the Australian
pianist Antony Gray:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Malcolm-Williamson-Complete-Works-Piano/dp/B00015JOC4
Al Eisner
2014-07-21 17:38:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Al Eisner
Post by Terry
Post by Al Eisner
Mackerras, of course, had Sullivan up there with Mozart, Dvorak and Janacek
in his own personal pantheon: as an unbiased Aussie, he always felt that it
was pure English snobbery which made people "forget" Sullivan when it came to
listing the Great British Composers.
You are claiming Mozart, Dvorak and Janacek now? And I thought the
days of the British empire were over....
Very poor attention span, Al.
Perhaps, but not by me.
That's a colon in there, nebbich.
Well, there's one in you too, but no need to use it compose your
posts. :)

No need to be insulting; if you don't get the point of my post, just
leave it alone.
--
Al Eisner
John Wiser
2014-07-21 17:52:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Al Eisner
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Al Eisner
Post by Terry
Post by Al Eisner
Mackerras, of course, had Sullivan up there with Mozart, Dvorak and Janacek
in his own personal pantheon: as an unbiased Aussie, he always felt that it
was pure English snobbery which made people "forget" Sullivan when it came to
listing the Great British Composers.
You are claiming Mozart, Dvorak and Janacek now? And I thought the
days of the British empire were over....
Very poor attention span, Al.
Perhaps, but not by me.
That's a colon in there, nebbich.
Well, there's one in you too, but no need to use it compose your
posts. :)
Prediction: he won't get it.

jdw
JohnGavin
2014-07-22 00:24:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Reluctant to admit this, but what the heck - Stephen Foster

Recommended recordings:

Favorite Foster - Robert Shaw Chorale - RCA Living Stereo
Songs - Jan De Gaetani - Kalish
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-22 21:22:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Wiser
Post by Al Eisner
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Al Eisner
Post by Terry
Post by Al Eisner
Mackerras, of course, had Sullivan up there with Mozart, Dvorak and Janacek
in his own personal pantheon: as an unbiased Aussie, he always felt that it
was pure English snobbery which made people "forget" Sullivan when it came to
listing the Great British Composers.
You are claiming Mozart, Dvorak and Janacek now? And I thought the
days of the British empire were over....
Very poor attention span, Al.
Perhaps, but not by me.
That's a colon in there, nebbich.
Well, there's one in you too, but no need to use it compose your
posts. :)
Prediction: he won't get it.
jdw
Wrong again, John.

I'm sorry Al feels insulted - but never mind, Israel named an airline after him, and that must count as something.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

mercifully free of anal fixation
Al Eisner
2014-07-23 20:56:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
I'm sorry Al feels insulted - but never mind, Israel named an airline
after him, and that must count as something.
Oh, I'm just "An" Al, no pretensions of grandeur. And I didn't feel
insulted, despite the apparent attempt.
--
Al Eisner
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-23 00:28:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
That's a colon in there, nebbich.
Well, there's one in you too, but no need to use it compose your posts
Does that mean I can join the Stern Gang?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-27 22:59:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by HT
I must admit that I did only hear some of what you call his Gilbertian pieces - and of course The Lost Chord ...
Henk
Here is my favourite version:



Andrew Clarke
Canberra
l***@aol.com
2014-07-28 00:20:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
It would be hard to say he's underrated because he produced relatively few works over the course of a long life (1912-2003), but Arthur Berger gave us some quite individual, gem-like music.

Larry Kart
William Sommerwerck
2014-07-18 18:42:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Christopher Webber
Yet half a century on from first hearing his music - and quite outside
the popular Gilbertian masterpieces - the more I listen to 'Ivanhoe',
'The Golden Legend' (under Mackerras), the incidental music to 'The
Tempest', 'Merchant of Venice' and 'Henry VIII' and many other works,
the more fun and spiritual pleasure I get from this decidedly
under-rated composer.
I like "Ivanhoe" (Sullivan didn't). His other works I find erratic. They
alternate, passage by passage, between interesting and dull.

Frank Loesser said that the lyricist was the composer's best friend. Sullivan
without Gilbert is like Menken without Ashman.
Ray Hall
2014-07-18 17:50:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MIFrost
http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/most-underrated-composers/?cmpid=E.Classic_Newsletter_Notes_2014.07.18&cmp=EMC-NEO
For your enjoyment.
MIFrost
Myaskovsky, Bax, Ives, Gesualdo, Haydn, Kraus, Martinu, Rimsky Korsakov.

There are hundreds more.

Ray Hall, Taree
John Wiser
2014-07-18 19:58:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ray Hall
Post by MIFrost
http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/most-underrated-composers/?cmpid=E.Classic_Newsletter_Notes_2014.07.18&cmp=EMC-NEO
For your enjoyment.
MIFrost
Myaskovsky, Bax, Ives, Gesualdo, Haydn, Kraus, Martinu, Rimsky Korsakov.
WTF have you got Haydn in there for?
Post by Ray Hall
There are hundreds more.
Thousands, Ray! From 2nd to 5th rate. The world is knee-deep in 'em.
That's a truly dimwitted article, but predictably
it has drawn the RMCR trivia-fressers like flies.

jdw
JohnGavin
2014-07-18 20:20:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Medtner - of course.
William Sommerwerck
2014-07-18 20:27:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Wiser
Post by Ray Hall
Myaskovsky, Bax, Ives, Gesualdo, Haydn, Kraus, Martinu, Rimsky Korsakov.
WTF have you got Haydn in there for?
Because the overall quality of Haydn's music is extremely high, but people
listen to only maybe 20% of it.
John Wiser
2014-07-18 21:27:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Wiser
Post by Ray Hall
Myaskovsky, Bax, Ives, Gesualdo, Haydn, Kraus, Martinu, Rimsky Korsakov.
WTF have you got Haydn in there for?
Because the overall quality of Haydn's music is extremely high, but people listen to only maybe
20% of it.
Ein sehr wischi-waschi hypothesis!
The maybe 80% which is
concertos, operas and baryton trios
cannot be sufficiently underrated.

Maybe he meant Johann Michael H.

jdw
Ray Hall
2014-07-19 01:11:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by John Wiser
Post by Ray Hall
Myaskovsky, Bax, Ives, Gesualdo, Haydn, Kraus, Martinu, Rimsky Korsakov.
WTF have you got Haydn in there for?
Because the overall quality of Haydn's music is extremely high, but
people listen to only maybe 20% of it.
Many moons ago, too many probably, I tended to dismiss Haydn. Not
visceral enough a la Shosty/Prok. These days I appreciate him much more.
But I think this might be a more common feeling for many.

The quality is not only high, but Haydn wrote a huge amount of music at
an amazing level of consistency.

I felt he needed to be included. The Stan Getz of classical music. ;)

Ray Hall, Taree
Terry
2014-07-19 10:06:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Sommerwerck
Post by John Wiser
Post by Ray Hall
Myaskovsky, Bax, Ives, Gesualdo, Haydn, Kraus, Martinu, Rimsky Korsakov.
WTF have you got Haydn in there for?
Because the overall quality of Haydn's music is extremely high, but people
listen to only maybe 20% of it.
Very good point.
Al Eisner
2014-07-18 20:55:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Wiser
Post by Ray Hall
Post by MIFrost
http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/most-underrated-composers/?cmpid=E.Classic_Newsletter_Notes_2014.07.18&cmp=EMC-NEO
For your enjoyment.
MIFrost
Myaskovsky, Bax, Ives, Gesualdo, Haydn, Kraus, Martinu, Rimsky Korsakov.
WTF have you got Haydn in there for?
He's testing to see if you are reading.
Now Kraus at least I've never heard of.
Post by John Wiser
Post by Ray Hall
There are hundreds more.
Thousands, Ray! From 2nd to 5th rate. The world is knee-deep in 'em.
Hey, let's not go overboard!
Post by John Wiser
That's a truly dimwitted article, but predictably
it has drawn the RMCR trivia-fressers like flies.
The article specified "most" underrated. So the trivia-fressers need
a metric. For example, is a second-rate composer who is considered
fifth-rate more underrated than a first-rate composer who is
considered second-rate?

Anyway, rmcr needs some relief from the relentlessly off-topic,
whether trivial (the Fluffy thread) or deadly serious (the Chomsky
thread), which has been dominating it lately.
--
Al Eisner
OTW
2014-07-19 13:23:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Wiser
Thousands, Ray! From 2nd to 5th rate. The world is knee-deep in 'em.
That's a truly dimwitted article, but predictably
it has drawn the RMCR trivia-fressers like flies.
The question might make more sense if they took it country by country. For example, ten most underrated American composers, or the ten most underrated British composers, or French, or Swahili, etc.
HT
2014-07-18 21:20:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Ives and Martinu - yes!

Henk
l***@aol.com
2014-07-18 21:44:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Christoph Graupner

Gottfried Heinrich Stölzel

Franco Donatoni
l***@aol.com
2014-07-18 21:50:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by l***@aol.com
Christoph Graupner
Gottfried Heinrich Stölzel
Franco Donatoni
Nikos Skalkotas
MELMOTH
2014-07-20 08:32:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Ce cher mammifère du nom de Ray Hall nous susurrait, le vendredi
18/07/2014, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales tout
Post by Ray Hall
There are hundreds more.
Hundreds ?...
Thousands !...
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin ; et celui qui
accroît sa science accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1-18]
MELMOTH - souffrant
Al Eisner
2014-07-18 19:39:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MIFrost
http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/most-underrated-composers/?cmpid=E.Classic_Newsletter_Notes_2014.07.18&cmp=EMC-NEO
For your enjoyment.
This can't be right. If it were truly a list of the ten most underrated,
I wouldn't expect to have heard of (and some music by) all of them (which
I have).
--
Al Eisner
Ricardo Jimenez
2014-07-19 00:01:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 12:39:59 -0700, Al Eisner
Post by Al Eisner
Post by MIFrost
http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/most-underrated-composers/?cmpid=E.Classic_Newsletter_Notes_2014.07.18&cmp=EMC-NEO
For your enjoyment.
This can't be right. If it were truly a list of the ten most underrated,
I wouldn't expect to have heard of (and some music by) all of them (which
I have).
Anybody who gives such a list should first give a precise criterion,
definition or algorithm for determining "The ten most underrated
composers". Of course they are incpable of doing that since the
concept is probably meaningless. If the article had been entitled
instead "Some lesser known composers whose music you might enjoy",
would it have caused less interest here?
Ray Hall
2014-07-19 01:14:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ricardo Jimenez
On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 12:39:59 -0700, Al Eisner
Post by Al Eisner
Post by MIFrost
http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/most-underrated-composers/?cmpid=E.Classic_Newsletter_Notes_2014.07.18&cmp=EMC-NEO
For your enjoyment.
This can't be right. If it were truly a list of the ten most underrated,
I wouldn't expect to have heard of (and some music by) all of them (which
I have).
Anybody who gives such a list should first give a precise criterion,
definition or algorithm for determining "The ten most underrated
composers". Of course they are incpable of doing that since the
concept is probably meaningless. If the article had been entitled
instead "Some lesser known composers whose music you might enjoy",
would it have caused less interest here?
It would have been a more useful question, for sure.

Ray Hall, Taree
Herman
2014-07-19 07:18:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Saturday, July 19, 2014 2:01:08 AM UTC+2, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
If the article had been entitled
Post by Ricardo Jimenez
instead "Some lesser known composers whose music you might enjoy",
would it have caused less interest here?
That would have been the case. It is by now a rule on the internet that you need to "write" stuff like "Ten Things to Turn On a Woman You Just Met", "Ten Biggest Fails in Showbiz".
Will Von
2014-07-18 21:11:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MIFrost
http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/most-underrated-composers/?cmpid=E.Classic_Newsletter_Notes_2014.07.18&cmp=EMC-NEO
For your enjoyment.
MIFrost
I would add Vagn Holmboe and Hubert Parry.
Lionel Tacchini
2014-07-20 11:36:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MIFrost
http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/most-underrated-composers/?cmpid=E.Classic_Newsletter_Notes_2014.07.18&cmp=EMC-NEO
For your enjoyment.
Didn't they just become overrated?
John Wiser
2014-07-20 14:29:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lionel Tacchini
Post by MIFrost
http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/most-underrated-composers/?cmpid=E.Classic_Newsletter_Notes_2014.07.18&cmp=EMC-NEO
For your enjoyment.
Didn't they just become overrated?
No, that's the one-hand-clapping effect.

jdw
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-23 12:03:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MIFrost
http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/most-underrated-composers/?cmpid=E.Classic_Newsletter_Notes_2014.07.18&cmp=EMC-NEO
For your enjoyment.
MIFrost
Whats counts as "underrated" by Classic FM standards can be calculated by the gaps in the Top 100 Hits surveys it holds regularly, of which the latest is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_100_Baroque_and_Before_%28ABC%29

No Heinrich Schutz. No. Heinrich. Schutz.

The poor old French are well down in the bottom half. Lully only rates a mention for the incidental music to Le bourgeois gentilhomme - none of the operas, not even Atys - and Rameau is only known for Les Indes galantes (probably the suite, not the opera). As for the Flemish Renaissance, I don't think it makes a single appearance.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Al Eisner
2014-07-23 22:28:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Whats counts as "underrated" by Classic FM standards can be calculated by
the gaps in the Top 100 Hits surveys it holds regularly, of which the
I'm not convinced that one can regard "hit" as the antonym of "not
underrated"; well-regarded works are not necessarily popular.
Post by Andrew Clarke
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_100_Baroque_and_Before_%28ABC%29
No Heinrich Schutz. No. Heinrich. Schutz.
True, but nonetheless, by American FM standards your country seems
like quite a civilized place. Despite the lapses, most of the list
is very good music. (Can one be grateful that Pachelbel is only at
position 6? And who is Allegri, some sort of Aussie specialty?)
In the U.S. I couldn't imagine so many large-scale vocal works
appearing near the top. (Even so, the Bach cantats seem almost as
underrated on FM as they are here.)
Post by Andrew Clarke
The poor old French are well down in the bottom half. Lully only rates
a mention for the incidental music to Le bourgeois gentilhomme - none
of the operas, not even Atys - and Rameau is only known for Les Indes
galantes (probably the suite, not the opera).
But the list does very well by British music. :)
Post by Andrew Clarke
As for the Flemish Renaissance, I don't think it makes a single appearance.
There's virtually nothing pre-Baroque (or pre-1600), and most of that
is English. It's probably too much to expect that much from that period
would be genuinely popular.

One thing that bugs me about such popularity lists in general (beyond,
that is, the probable charge of inanity) is a lack of commensurability.
Thus Bach's Brandenburgs and Cello Suites get one entry apiece, while
Handel Op. 6, the Biber sonatas and the large set of the Monteverdi
Madrigals get only combined entries.
--
Al Eisner
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-24 00:30:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Al Eisner
Post by Andrew Clarke
Whats counts as "underrated" by Classic FM standards can be calculated by
the gaps in the Top 100 Hits surveys it holds regularly, of which the
I'm not convinced that one can regard "hit" as the antonym of "not
underrated"; well-regarded works are not necessarily popular.
Post by Andrew Clarke
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_100_Baroque_and_Before_%28ABC%29
No Heinrich Schutz. No. Heinrich. Schutz.
True, but nonetheless, by American FM standards your country seems
like quite a civilized place. Despite the lapses, most of the list
is very good music. (Can one be grateful that Pachelbel is only at
position 6? And who is Allegri, some sort of Aussie specialty?)
If Pachelbel's there for his Canon, Allegri's there for his "Miserere" or rather a later version of same in which a spectacular treble solo had been added. Recorded by King's College Chapel Choir, and not a dry eye in the house. I believe the treble in the recording was a very young Roy Goodman, later a HIP conductor.

Yes, it's good music, Al, but, as always with these lists, predictable. It's also a generational thing: most FM listeners are getting on a bit, including myself, and hence the predilection towards old favourites. And it is sad that the pre-Baroque, with all its treasures, is only represented by Sumer is icomen in and Bloody Greensleeves.

The strong English (or Hanoverian/English) element was noted at the time the results came out, reflecting the usual Australian love-hate relationship with the British.

Meanwhile I'll be going to see and hear the King's College Chapel Choir here in Canberra at the end of this month. They're part of the current Musica Viva season, an organisation started by displaced persons who were shipped out to Australia after WW2. The Goldner Quartet - well worth a hearing - is named after one of its principal movers and shakers.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Al Eisner
2014-07-24 22:59:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Al Eisner
Post by Andrew Clarke
Whats counts as "underrated" by Classic FM standards can be calculated by
the gaps in the Top 100 Hits surveys it holds regularly, of which the
I'm not convinced that one can regard "hit" as the antonym of "not
underrated"; well-regarded works are not necessarily popular.
Post by Andrew Clarke
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_100_Baroque_and_Before_%28ABC%29
No Heinrich Schutz. No. Heinrich. Schutz.
True, but nonetheless, by American FM standards your country seems
like quite a civilized place. Despite the lapses, most of the list
is very good music. (Can one be grateful that Pachelbel is only at
position 6? And who is Allegri, some sort of Aussie specialty?)
If Pachelbel's there for his Canon, Allegri's there for his "Miserere"
or rather a later version of same in which a spectacular treble solo
had been added. Recorded by King's College Chapel Choir, and not a dry
eye in the house. I believe the treble in the recording was a very
young Roy Goodman, later a HIP conductor.
Sounds wonderful. :)
Post by Andrew Clarke
Yes, it's good music, Al, but, as always with these lists,
predictable. It's also a generational thing: most FM listeners are
getting on a bit, including myself, and hence the predilection towards
old favourites. And it is sad that the pre-Baroque, with all its
treasures, is only represented by Sumer is icomen in and Bloody
Greensleeves.
The version rated for violence as well as for sex?

Not quite all; there is Palestrina and some Byrd and Tallis too.
Post by Andrew Clarke
The strong English (or Hanoverian/English) element was noted at the
time the results came out, reflecting the usual Australian love-hate
relationship with the British.
Meanwhile I'll be going to see and hear the King's College Chapel
Choir here in Canberra at the end of this month. They're part of the
current Musica Viva season, an organisation started by displaced
persons who were shipped out to Australia after WW2. The Goldner
Quartet - well worth a hearing - is named after one of its principal
movers and shakers.
Their Szymanowski quartets (a recommendation I got from rmcr) are
very worthwhile. I don't think I've heard anything else from them.
--
Al Eisner
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-26 12:12:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
And it is sad that the pre-Baroque, with all its
Post by Al Eisner
Post by Andrew Clarke
treasures, is only represented by Sumer is icomen in and Bloody
Greensleeves.
The version rated for violence as well as for sex?
Al Eisner
In Australia and the UK (I think)Greensleeves is associated less with blood and gore and more with Raspberry Ripple, as sold by itinerant ice-cream vans playing "Greensleeves" on some kind of electronic chimes whenever they stop to attract custom.

It's just one of the many ways in which the bloody thing has been done to death. I can't even listen to Ralph Greaves's arrangement of RVW any more: it comes from a vision of Elizabethan England that is about as real as the fake timbering on a roadside pub in the Stockbroker Belt. (RVW hated living anywhere but London BTW.)

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

"In Suffolk Peter and Ben did it,
Rafe Vaughan Williams somewhere in a fen did it,
Let's do it, let's fall in love ... "

Old Aldburgh fisherman's song, collected by Cecil Sharp, ca 1905.
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-26 12:34:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Al Eisner
Their Szymanowski quartets (a recommendation I got from rmcr) are
very worthwhile. I don't think I've heard anything else from them.
See http://goldnerquartet.com/recordings/

Apart from the Beethoven and the Dvorak they have wisely concentrated on the less well known bits of the quartet repertoire, including a fair amount of British stuff. And then there's the Sculthorpe Project which will go down very well with the luvvies who dominate ABC Classic FM and no doubt other areas of Australian music-making as well.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Al Eisner
2014-07-28 21:51:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Al Eisner
Their Szymanowski quartets (a recommendation I got from rmcr) are
very worthwhile. I don't think I've heard anything else from them.
See http://goldnerquartet.com/recordings/
Apart from the Beethoven and the Dvorak they have wisely
concentrated on the less well known bits of the quartet repertoire,
including a fair amount of British stuff. And then there's the
Sculthorpe Project which will go down very well with the luvvies who
dominate ABC Classic FM and no doubt other areas of Australian
music-making as well.
Thanks, that's very interesting repertory. Specific recommendations
(Beethoven and Dvorak aside)?

Oh, and one more question: do they also play Greensleeves? :)
--
Al Eisner
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-28 23:51:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Al Eisner
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Al Eisner
Their Szymanowski quartets (a recommendation I got from rmcr) are
very worthwhile. I don't think I've heard anything else from them.
See http://goldnerquartet.com/recordings/
Apart from the Beethoven and the Dvorak they have wisely
concentrated on the less well known bits of the quartet repertoire,
including a fair amount of British stuff. And then there's the
Sculthorpe Project which will go down very well with the luvvies who
dominate ABC Classic FM and no doubt other areas of Australian
music-making as well.
Thanks, that's very interesting repertory. Specific recommendations
(Beethoven and Dvorak aside)?
I can't personally recommend these discs because I've never heard any of them. This is partly because I'm now boyishly enthusiastic about downloads, after ripping my collection, and partly because I'm not particularly interested in music of that period at the moment, although that will change, I'm sure.

They've certainly had some good reviews:

http://goldnerquartet.com/category/acclaim/

I'd certainly be interested in hearing the Elgar: the Quartet I don't know at all, but I remember the Piano Quintet as a work with a most dramatic (and un-"Elgarian")opening movement followed by three less memorable ones.
Post by Al Eisner
Oh, and one more question: do they also play Greensleeves? :)
Only when selling ice-cream in summer between engagements. In winter they're reduced to cracking walnuts with their feet while playing, as recommended by the Schnozz himself.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

BTW you're not the guy in the fedora and the double-breasted striped suit who owns that big airline in Italy are you? If you are, I'm running scared.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
six months behind with the payments for my grandfather's pizza joint ...
Andrew Clarke
2014-07-25 07:43:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Al Eisner
Post by Andrew Clarke
Whats counts as "underrated" by Classic FM standards can be calculated by
the gaps in the Top 100 Hits surveys it holds regularly, of which the
I'm not convinced that one can regard "hit" as the antonym of "not
underrated"; well-regarded works are not necessarily popular.
Post by Andrew Clarke
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_100_Baroque_and_Before_%28ABC%29
No Heinrich Schutz. No. Heinrich. Schutz.
True, but nonetheless, by American FM standards your country seems
like quite a civilized place. Despite the lapses, most of the list
is very good music. (Can one be grateful that Pachelbel is only at
position 6? And who is Allegri, some sort of Aussie specialty?)
In the U.S. I couldn't imagine so many large-scale vocal works
appearing near the top. (Even so, the Bach cantats seem almost as
underrated on FM as they are here.)
Post by Andrew Clarke
The poor old French are well down in the bottom half. Lully only rates
a mention for the incidental music to Le bourgeois gentilhomme - none
of the operas, not even Atys - and Rameau is only known for Les Indes
galantes (probably the suite, not the opera).
But the list does very well by British music. :)
Post by Andrew Clarke
As for the Flemish Renaissance, I don't think it makes a single appearance.
There's virtually nothing pre-Baroque (or pre-1600), and most of that
is English. It's probably too much to expect that much from that period
would be genuinely popular.
One thing that bugs me about such popularity lists in general (beyond,
that is, the probable charge of inanity) is a lack of commensurability.
Thus Bach's Brandenburgs and Cello Suites get one entry apiece, while
Handel Op. 6, the Biber sonatas and the large set of the Monteverdi
Madrigals get only combined entries.
--
Al Eisner
A few more things, Al,

Classic FM is part of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation network, which means that it is entirely funded by the taxpayer and therefore not at the mercy of commercial interests. Its demographic is elderly and its ratings small, but at least its funding is secure. It isn't as populist as Britain's Classic FM appears to be., and I suspect it has more resources than your average American Public Broadcasting System set-up. It also plays the Promenade concerts from the UK. The ABC also runs a profoundly serious socially concerned network called Radio National, or Radio Third International if you prefer.

Commensurability: yes, there's a problem. I'm 99.99% sure that Handel's Semele really means "Where e're you walk" and that Couperin's 6e Livre is really the Passacaglia or mebbe "Les barricades mysterieuses". "L'Incoronazione de Poppea" is probably there for 'Pur ti miro', rather than for the more challenging stuff that comes before it.

Yes, it's a popularity contest, although anything like this does require the public to consider why they like one piece of music rather than another. But because these contests are probably used by ABC management and programmers as an audience survey of some kind, there's a kind of circularity at work - Classic FM uses the contests to see what it's public likes, and the public likes what it hears on Classic FM, although in all fairness, the station's programming is not as conservative as this model would predict.

What can the ordinary person be expected to listen to? This depends, I suppose, how well the ordinary person has come to use and accept digital technology, not just to order physical discs, or to download FLC files, but to actually explore new areas or music, via streaming radio or via YouTube. It isn't that hard to find performances of Lully and Rameau these days, but you do need to readjust your ears a little to appreciate its beauties and its terrors. That is probably why these composers really are underrated by the Classic FM crowd.

A bit more on the demographic: in the videorecordings made at live performances of Baroque opera in Paris, it's notable how comparatively youthful the audiences - or indeed the performers - are. Young couples are far more noticeable than wealthy widows.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Christopher Webber
2014-07-25 08:37:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
A bit more on the demographic: in the videorecordings made at live performances of Baroque opera in Paris, it's notable how comparatively youthful the audiences - or indeed the performers - are. Young couples are far more noticeable than wealthy widows.
I noticed this too. French, Dutch, German (and Moscow) audiences for
opera performances are all noticeably younger than they are in London,
in my experience. Of course the difference is, that there is a proper
subsidy in system in these countries which directly affects the price of
tickets. In London ENO, for instance, seem to be expected to use their
Arts Council grants to *raise* prices by getting well-upholstered "bums
on seats" for popular repertoire - and also now, musicals.

It's a total misuse of arts subsidy to do this, in my opinion. The Arts
Council of GB needs to go back to its Keynesian basics. Keynes was the
founding spirit of the whole enterprise, but they have wandered a long
way from his original idea.
arri bachrach
2014-07-25 23:01:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MIFrost
http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/most-underrated-composers/?cmpid=E.Classic_Newsletter_Notes_2014.07.18&cmp=EMC-NEO
For your enjoyment.
MIFrost
has anybody mentioned Spohr, my favorite underrated compose??

AB
Matthew B. Tepper
2014-07-28 19:33:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
John Foulds
Otar Taktakishvili
George Rochberg
Ferruccio Busoni
Nikolai Medtner
Johann Nepomuk Hummel
Georges Onslow
Antoine Brumel
Lili Boulanger
Robert Volkmann
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Dana John Hill
2014-07-28 21:01:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Otar Taktakishvili
Among the discs in my recently-acquired collection are a handful
featuring music by Taktakishvili, including a symphony, a sonata for
flute and piano (this has been recorded several times, it seems), and a
concerto for piano and orchestra, the latter of which I enjoy a great
deal and would encourage others to investigate.

Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida
Matthew B. Tepper
2014-07-28 23:51:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Otar Taktakishvili
Among the discs in my recently-acquired collection are a handful featuring
music by Taktakishvili, including a symphony, a sonata for flute and piano
(this has been recorded several times, it seems), and a concerto for piano
and orchestra, the latter of which I enjoy a great deal and would encourage
others to investigate.
Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida
The Flute Sonata has been recorded many times, and while it is a fine work, I
think it's a shame that Taktakishvili's orchestral output, particularly the
(first?) three piano concertos and the Violin Concertino, are hardly known.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Dana John Hill
2014-07-29 21:08:45 UTC
Reply
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
The Flute Sonata has been recorded many times, and while it is a fine work, I
think it's a shame that Taktakishvili's orchestral output, particularly the
(first?) three piano concertos and the Violin Concertino, are hardly known.
I find it somewhat surprising that Neeme Järvi never recorded these
works. I can almost picture how there could have been a fine Bis or
Chandos set with the piano concertos. Is the Romantic Piano Concerto
series still ongoing at Hyperion? Maybe Naxos will fill the void someday.

Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida
g***@gmail.com
2019-09-01 06:28:22 UTC
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Post by MIFrost
http://www.classicfm.com/discover/music/most-underrated-composers/?cmpid=E.Classic_Newsletter_Notes_2014.07.18&cmp=EMC-NEO
For your enjoyment.
MIFrost
(Upcoming radio program):

https://www.wfmt.com/programs/collectors-corner-with-henry-fogel/
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