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Next up: Tchaikovsky's Pathetique
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dk
2021-02-03 01:22:09 UTC
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Recommendations, please!

TIA

dk
raymond....@gmail.com
2021-02-03 03:08:09 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
dk
Ormandy/Philadelphia (CBS/Sony)
Mravinsky/Leningrad (DG)

There are many who claim that Fricsay, stereo and mono versions, are unbeatable, with the 1953 mono recording with the BPO taking ultimate honours. His later stereo one was with the Berlin RSO.

Mravinsky can often convey a hint of cruelty to Tchaikovsky, but undeniably exciting. Ormandy's Pathetique is a fine testimony to his orchestra and his art.

Ray Hall, Taree
Frank Berger
2021-02-03 03:43:53 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
dk
Ormandy/Philadelphia (CBS/Sony)
Assuming you mean the 1960 stereo. There is a 1952 mono,
included in the forthcoming Ormandy box.
Post by ***@gmail.com
Mravinsky/Leningrad (DG)
There are many who claim that Fricsay, stereo and mono versions, are unbeatable, with the 1953 mono recording with the BPO taking ultimate honours. His later stereo one was with the Berlin RSO.
Mravinsky can often convey a hint of cruelty to Tchaikovsky, but undeniably exciting. Ormandy's Pathetique is a fine testimony to his orchestra and his art.
Ray Hall, Taree
MELMOTH
2021-02-03 06:43:49 UTC
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Assuming you mean the 1960 stereo. There is a 1952 mono, included in the
forthcoming Ormandy box.
Dozens of superb recordings...
But of course, first of all *MRAVINSKY* (DG Stereo)...
Whether you listen to an open score, or in the dark with your eyes
closed, standing up trying not to conduct the record, alone or with
friends... The evidence hits you head on: this is what Tchaikovsky
wrote, everything he wrote, and nothing he didn't write... An absolute
summit...
Same for the 5th and 4th symphonies...
dk
2021-02-05 18:36:49 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
dk
Ormandy/Philadelphia (CBS/Sony)
Mravinsky/Leningrad (DG)
There are many who claim that Fricsay, stereo and mono versions,
are unbeatable, with the 1953 mono recording with the BPO taking
ultimate honours. His later stereo one was with the Berlin RSO.
Mravinsky can often convey a hint of cruelty to Tchaikovsky, but
undeniably exciting. Ormandy's Pathetique is a fine testimony to
his orchestra and his art.
Thanks! Will review.

dk
gggg gggg
2021-11-16 07:57:43 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
dk
Ormandy/Philadelphia (CBS/Sony)
Mravinsky/Leningrad (DG)
There are many who claim that Fricsay, stereo and mono versions, are unbeatable, with the 1953 mono recording with the BPO taking ultimate honours. His later stereo one was with the Berlin RSO.
Mravinsky can often convey a hint of cruelty to Tchaikovsky, but undeniably exciting. Ormandy's Pathetique is a fine testimony to his orchestra and his art.
Ray Hall, Taree
(Recent Y. upload):

Repertoire: The BEST Tchaikovsky Sixth Symphony "Pathétique"

gggg gggg
2021-02-03 03:10:21 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
dk
According to THE LIVING STEREO BIBLE, Pathetique was Monteux's best Liviing Stereo recording.
gggg gggg
2021-02-03 03:34:01 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
dk
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/dZSbv026cxQ/m/kcfev5SriHcJ
gggg gggg
2021-02-03 03:35:35 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
dk
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/pathetique.html
dk
2021-02-03 05:33:04 UTC
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Post by gggg gggg
Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/pathetique.html
I do not accept or consider links to recommendations from
others. If you have something to say that comes from your
direct personal experience and from the stuff between your
ears I would be happy to consider. Otherwise you may shut
down that bot -- I suppose most if not all of us can Google
just as proficiently as you do.

dk
gggg gggg
2021-02-03 05:47:00 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by gggg gggg
Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/pathetique.html
I do not accept or consider links to recommendations from
others. If you have something to say that comes from your
direct personal experience and from the stuff between your
ears I would be happy to consider. Otherwise you may shut
down that bot -- I suppose most if not all of us can Google
just as proficiently as you do.
dk
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&sxsrf=ALeKk02KZkaNpjmNeEchlP5rq1ut-yCdwQ%3A1612331113263&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=657&ei=aTgaYOHKDYC_0PEPrvS58Ag&q=spock+gif&oq=spock+gif&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyBggAEAUQHjIGCAAQBRAeMgYIABAFEB4yBggAEAUQHjIGCAAQBRAeMgYIABAFEB46BAgjECc6CAgAELEDEIMBOgUIABCxA1DbEljEKWDXQGgAcAB4AIABlAGIAbgGkgEDNy4ymAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWc&sclient=img&ved=0ahUKEwiho466gc3uAhWAHzQIHS56Do4Q4dUDCAc&uact=5#imgrc=bSSjcjTsdR2OpM
dk
2021-02-05 18:37:40 UTC
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Post by gggg gggg
Post by dk
Post by gggg gggg
Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/pathetique.html
I do not accept or consider links to recommendations from
others. If you have something to say that comes from your
direct personal experience and from the stuff between your
ears I would be happy to consider. Otherwise you may shut
down that bot -- I suppose most if not all of us can Google
just as proficiently as you do.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&sxsrf=ALeKk02KZkaNpjmNeEchlP5rq1ut-yCdwQ%3A1612331113263&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=657&ei=aTgaYOHKDYC_0PEPrvS58Ag&q=spock+gif&oq=spock+gif&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzICCAAyAggAMgIIADICCAAyBggAEAUQHjIGCAAQBRAeMgYIABAFEB4yBggAEAUQHjIGCAAQBRAeMgYIABAFEB46BAgjECc6CAgAELEDEIMBOgUIABCxA1DbEljEKWDXQGgAcAB4AIABlAGIAbgGkgEDNy4ymAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWc&sclient=img&ved=0ahUKEwiho466gc3uAhWAHzQIHS56Do4Q4dUDCAc&uact=5#imgrc=bSSjcjTsdR2OpM
See above. I know how to use Google Search even without
quote bot advice.

dk
Gerard
2021-02-03 11:07:09 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by gggg gggg
Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/pathetique.html
I do not accept or consider links to recommendations from
others. If you have something to say that comes from your
direct personal experience and from the stuff between your
ears I would be happy to consider. Otherwise you may shut
down that bot -- I suppose most if not all of us can Google
just as proficiently as you do.
dk
He says more than you do re preferred recordings of Manfred and
Francesca da Rimini.
MELMOTH
2021-02-03 06:33:05 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
Edith Farnadi, of course...But don't rely on the result... Only the
rehearsals count, don't they?
Alex Brown
2021-02-03 07:13:56 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
dk
So many famous recordings. Strange to say if I had to keep just one it
would be Ashkenazy/Philharmonia (Decca) for its freshness and visceral
impact.

Or Bernstein's digital NY recording, if I'm feeling morbid, while
accepting it's a curio.
--
- Alex Brown
Néstor Castiglione
2021-02-03 08:01:56 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
dk
Try Nikolai Golovanov (reissued on CD by Boheme about 20 years ago) for a truly wild performance that verges on psychedelia. His Soviet brass players (Bolshoi Theatre Orchestra or USSR All-Union Radio Orchestra, forget which) groan, shriek, and practically spit out blood. Tempo markings are tossed aside with abandon; climaxes driven to apocalyptic extremes. The final movement has a morbid power which haunts the listener (or at least this listener) long after the din of the music has died away. This is Tchaikovsky not as marmoreal curio entombed in a museum, but as a living thread to the future grotesqueries of Shostakovich and Schnittke. An unforgettable performance, although it is definitely not for civilians.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Furtwängler yet, but have to admit to not finding either of his recordings of this symphony ideal. They're good, but suffer from being a little too smoothed out. If you need to get a Furtwängler, try his earlier recording (preferably in the Opus Kura transfer).

Neither of Fricsay's studio recordings of Tchaikovsky 6 match the electricity of his mono 5 with the BPO. However, there is a live performance on Orfeo with the Bavarian Radio Symphony that is one of my very favorites. It is a grim reading; implacable in its might, nearly unbearable. The bass drum thwacks in the march sound like pre-echoes of the hammer blows from Mahler 6. The last pages of the finale throb away with a sense of bleakness and hopelessness which are unsettling. Not for everyday listening.

If you can find it (maybe a project for Pristine or St. Laurent Studios?), there was a superb Tchaikovsky 6 conducted by Philippe Gaubert on 78s. Expressive without excess; beautifully phrased.

Speaking of 78s, Oskar Fried made a grand Romantic reading of the symphony with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra (no relation to Sir Thomas' later orchestra). Richly colored (listen to his lustrous strings) and noble in tone. A personal favorite. Try the Preiser transfer over the Lys (the latter is a bit too generous with the noise-filtering).

Kobayashi Kenichirō, a Japanese conductor who's turning 81 this year, made two superb recordings of this symphony. They have a gruffness to them, a muscularity of tone and gesture, as well as unexpected moments of gentility which lend his reading a touching vulnerability as well as strength. His recordings of the Tchaikovsky 6 were each part of cycles of the composer's complete symphonies. I tend to prefer his recordings with the Japan Philharmonic on Canyon (although this one is harder to come by than his cycle on Exton with the Czech Philharmonic). Stunning sound.
Al Eisner
2021-02-03 22:55:19 UTC
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Post by Néstor Castiglione
Neither of Fricsay's studio recordings of Tchaikovsky 6 match the electricity of his mono 5 with the BPO. However, there is a live performance on Orfeo with the Bavarian Radio Symphony that is one of my very favorites. It is a grim reading; implacable in its might, nearly unbearable. The bass drum thwacks in the march sound like pre-echoes of the hammer blows from Mahler 6. The last pages of the finale throb away with a sense of bleakness and hopelessness which are unsettling. Not for everyday listening.
I was going to recommend this Orfeo recording. Nesor's description
of the last movement in particular matches my feeling as to how the
work ought to go. It is much of what makes this symphony unique. (It
is one of my two favorite works by the composer.) Others have
mentioned the Mravinsky DG. While I love his 4th and 5th, I'm less
happy with his 6th, which seems too fast overall, and passes by the
above above elements (again, of the finale in particular). [I most
recently heard the version in the Erato Mravinsky set, but if I
recall correctly the DG is not too different - and timings are similar.]

By the way, I was rather taken with the Mravinsky approach to Francesca
(I have yet to listen to any of dk's mystery tracks, which I intend to
at least dip into.) But not so much in his non-pathetic Pathétique.
--
Al Eisner
dk
2021-02-05 18:44:00 UTC
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Post by Néstor Castiglione
Neither of Fricsay's studio recordings of Tchaikovsky 6 match
the electricity of his mono 5 with the BPO. However, there is a
live performance on Orfeo with the Bavarian Radio Symphony
that is one of my very favorites. It is a grim reading; implacable
in its might, nearly unbearable. The bass drum thwacks in the
march sound like pre-echoes of the hammer blows from Mahler 6.
The last pages of the finale throb away with a sense of bleakness
and hopelessness which are unsettling. Not for everyday listening.
I was going to recommend this Orfeo recording. Nesor's description
of the last movement in particular matches my feeling as to how the
work ought to go. It is much of what makes this symphony unique. (It
is one of my two favorite works by the composer.) Others have
mentioned the Mravinsky DG. While I love his 4th and 5th, I'm less
happy with his 6th, which seems too fast overall, and passes by the
above above elements (again, of the finale in particular). [I most
recently heard the version in the Erato Mravinsky set, but if I
recall correctly the DG is not too different - and timings are similar.]
By the way, I was rather taken with the Mravinsky approach to Francesca
(I have yet to listen to any of dk's mystery tracks, which I intend to
at least dip into.) But not so much in his non-pathetic Pathétique.
Thanks! I do not find Mravinsky's Pathetique(s) as convincing as
his 4th and 5th Tchaikovsky symphonies. incidentally, one of the
7 "finalists" is a Mravinsky performance. Can you figure out which?

dk
dk
2021-02-05 19:44:25 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by Al Eisner
By the way, I was rather taken with the Mravinsky approach to Francesca
(I have yet to listen to any of dk's mystery tracks, which I intend to
at least dip into.) But not so much in his non-pathetic Pathétique.
Thanks! I do not find Mravinsky's Pathetique(s) as convincing as
his 4th and 5th Tchaikovsky symphonies. incidentally, one of the
7 "finalists" is a Mravinsky performance. Can you figure out which?
Just to clarify -- I was referring to the 7 Francesca "finalists", not the
Pathetique ones, which have not been posted yet!

dk
Al Eisner
2021-02-06 07:19:50 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by dk
Post by Al Eisner
By the way, I was rather taken with the Mravinsky approach to Francesca
(I have yet to listen to any of dk's mystery tracks, which I intend to
at least dip into.) But not so much in his non-pathetic Pathétique.
Thanks! I do not find Mravinsky's Pathetique(s) as convincing as
his 4th and 5th Tchaikovsky symphonies. incidentally, one of the
7 "finalists" is a Mravinsky performance. Can you figure out which?
Just to clarify -- I was referring to the 7 Francesca "finalists", not the
Pathetique ones, which have not been posted yet!
dk
Yes, that is how I understood your response. I expect to have time
soon to listen to at least some of the Francesca's. I doubt if I
would have similar time for the Pathétiques, at least not all the way
through. (But do try to audition that Fricsay Orfeo before you decide.)
--
Al Eisner
dk
2021-02-06 18:12:29 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by Al Eisner
By the way, I was rather taken with the Mravinsky approach to Francesca
(I have yet to listen to any of dk's mystery tracks, which I intend to
at least dip into.) But not so much in his non-pathetic Pathétique.
Thanks! I do not find Mravinsky's Pathetique(s) as convincing as
his 4th and 5th Tchaikovsky symphonies. incidentally, one of the
7 "finalists" is a Mravinsky performance. Can you figure out which?
Just to clarify -- I was referring to the 7 Francesca "finalists", not the
Pathetique ones, which have not been posted yet!
Yes, that is how I understood your response. I expect to have time
soon to listen to at least some of the Francesca's. I doubt if I
would have similar time for the Pathétiques, at least not all the way
through. (But do try to audition that Fricsay Orfeo before you decide.)
The Pathetique I posted is broken into individual movements so
one can sample and listen to smaller bites. I have the Orfeo disc,
and it is also available on YT in the Bavarian Radio Symphony
Orchestra - Topic channel. It sounds too "driven" to my ears,
and the orchestra does not sound "Russian". While this may
be difficult to explain, anyone listening to the one I posted
will not fail to notice the difference.

Thanks again for the advice.
Al Eisner
2021-02-06 23:34:27 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by dk
Post by Al Eisner
By the way, I was rather taken with the Mravinsky approach to Francesca
(I have yet to listen to any of dk's mystery tracks, which I intend to
at least dip into.) But not so much in his non-pathetic Pathétique.
Thanks! I do not find Mravinsky's Pathetique(s) as convincing as
his 4th and 5th Tchaikovsky symphonies. incidentally, one of the
7 "finalists" is a Mravinsky performance. Can you figure out which?
Just to clarify -- I was referring to the 7 Francesca "finalists", not the
Pathetique ones, which have not been posted yet!
Yes, that is how I understood your response. I expect to have time
soon to listen to at least some of the Francesca's. I doubt if I
would have similar time for the Pathétiques, at least not all the way
through. (But do try to audition that Fricsay Orfeo before you decide.)
The Pathetique I posted is broken into individual movements so
one can sample and listen to smaller bites. I have the Orfeo disc,
and it is also available on YT in the Bavarian Radio Symphony
Orchestra - Topic channel. It sounds too "driven" to my ears,
and the orchestra does not sound "Russian". While this may
be difficult to explain, anyone listening to the one I posted
will not fail to notice the difference.
Thanks again for the advice.
I listened again to the Fricsay on Orfeo (it's been a few years), and I
remain impressed. The finale is still devastating, or perhaos devastingly
depressing - perhaps the essence for me of a great 6th. If there is a
weaker movement it is the second. So that's what I listened to in
your dropbox version (I wasn't about to listen to another finale in
succession). I greatly enjoyed it: the same timing as the Fricasy, but
welcomely lighter, albeit still with a dark edge - a good compromise.

However, while I could hear differences, I'm certainly not discerning
enough about a "Russian sound" to identify it. It would be helpful
if you could try to put it into words. I doubt if I would agree that
the work *has* to sound Russian, but give it a try. :)
--
Al Eisner
Néstor Castiglione
2021-02-07 00:31:53 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by dk
Post by Al Eisner
By the way, I was rather taken with the Mravinsky approach to Francesca
(I have yet to listen to any of dk's mystery tracks, which I intend to
at least dip into.) But not so much in his non-pathetic Pathétique.
Thanks! I do not find Mravinsky's Pathetique(s) as convincing as
his 4th and 5th Tchaikovsky symphonies. incidentally, one of the
7 "finalists" is a Mravinsky performance. Can you figure out which?
Just to clarify -- I was referring to the 7 Francesca "finalists", not the
Pathetique ones, which have not been posted yet!
Yes, that is how I understood your response. I expect to have time
soon to listen to at least some of the Francesca's. I doubt if I
would have similar time for the Pathétiques, at least not all the way
through. (But do try to audition that Fricsay Orfeo before you decide.)
The Pathetique I posted is broken into individual movements so
one can sample and listen to smaller bites. I have the Orfeo disc,
and it is also available on YT in the Bavarian Radio Symphony
Orchestra - Topic channel. It sounds too "driven" to my ears,
and the orchestra does not sound "Russian". While this may
be difficult to explain, anyone listening to the one I posted
will not fail to notice the difference.
Thanks again for the advice.
What would be a "Russian" sound? Are you talking about the old Soviet sound, or what Russian orchestras sound like to day, which is basically indistinguishable from their Western counterparts? Recall that Tchaikovsky was often criticized by The Mighty Five and their partisans for being an un-Russian cosmopolitan, more European than anything else. So one could argue that the sound of a Western orchestra would be more "authentic" or "truer" to his intentions (whatever those were).
Phl Maestro
2021-02-07 00:40:17 UTC
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Post by Néstor Castiglione
Post by dk
Post by dk
Post by Al Eisner
By the way, I was rather taken with the Mravinsky approach to Francesca
(I have yet to listen to any of dk's mystery tracks, which I intend to
at least dip into.) But not so much in his non-pathetic Pathétique.
Thanks! I do not find Mravinsky's Pathetique(s) as convincing as
his 4th and 5th Tchaikovsky symphonies. incidentally, one of the
7 "finalists" is a Mravinsky performance. Can you figure out which?
Just to clarify -- I was referring to the 7 Francesca "finalists", not the
Pathetique ones, which have not been posted yet!
Yes, that is how I understood your response. I expect to have time
soon to listen to at least some of the Francesca's. I doubt if I
would have similar time for the Pathétiques, at least not all the way
through. (But do try to audition that Fricsay Orfeo before you decide.)
The Pathetique I posted is broken into individual movements so
one can sample and listen to smaller bites. I have the Orfeo disc,
and it is also available on YT in the Bavarian Radio Symphony
Orchestra - Topic channel. It sounds too "driven" to my ears,
and the orchestra does not sound "Russian". While this may
be difficult to explain, anyone listening to the one I posted
will not fail to notice the difference.
Thanks again for the advice.
What would be a "Russian" sound? Are you talking about the old Soviet sound, or what Russian orchestras sound like to day, which is basically indistinguishable from their Western counterparts? Recall that Tchaikovsky was often criticized by The Mighty Five and their partisans for being an un-Russian cosmopolitan, more European than anything else. So one could argue that the sound of a Western orchestra would be more "authentic" or "truer" to his intentions (whatever those were).
I recall there being some excitement on here some years back (maybe 8-10 years?) when Gergiev led a live Tchaikovsky symphony cycle with his Russian orchestra that was broadcast or uploaded for people to hear and that the sound of the orchestra was part of the discussion.
Néstor Castiglione
2021-02-07 00:52:39 UTC
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Post by Phl Maestro
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Post by dk
Post by dk
Post by Al Eisner
By the way, I was rather taken with the Mravinsky approach to Francesca
(I have yet to listen to any of dk's mystery tracks, which I intend to
at least dip into.) But not so much in his non-pathetic Pathétique.
Thanks! I do not find Mravinsky's Pathetique(s) as convincing as
his 4th and 5th Tchaikovsky symphonies. incidentally, one of the
7 "finalists" is a Mravinsky performance. Can you figure out which?
Just to clarify -- I was referring to the 7 Francesca "finalists", not the
Pathetique ones, which have not been posted yet!
Yes, that is how I understood your response. I expect to have time
soon to listen to at least some of the Francesca's. I doubt if I
would have similar time for the Pathétiques, at least not all the way
through. (But do try to audition that Fricsay Orfeo before you decide.)
The Pathetique I posted is broken into individual movements so
one can sample and listen to smaller bites. I have the Orfeo disc,
and it is also available on YT in the Bavarian Radio Symphony
Orchestra - Topic channel. It sounds too "driven" to my ears,
and the orchestra does not sound "Russian". While this may
be difficult to explain, anyone listening to the one I posted
will not fail to notice the difference.
Thanks again for the advice.
What would be a "Russian" sound? Are you talking about the old Soviet sound, or what Russian orchestras sound like to day, which is basically indistinguishable from their Western counterparts? Recall that Tchaikovsky was often criticized by The Mighty Five and their partisans for being an un-Russian cosmopolitan, more European than anything else. So one could argue that the sound of a Western orchestra would be more "authentic" or "truer" to his intentions (whatever those were).
I recall there being some excitement on here some years back (maybe 8-10 years?) when Gergiev led a live Tchaikovsky symphony cycle with his Russian orchestra that was broadcast or uploaded for people to hear and that the sound of the orchestra was part of the discussion.
I've had the pleasure of hearing Gergiev conduct several times, both as guest conductor and at the helm of the Mariinsky. The sound he draws is gritty, brawny; definitely a unique sonority. Whether one could call it typically "Russian" is up to the beholder, I suppose. It certainly sounds like no other Russian orchestra I've heard, whether from today or yesteryear. The sonority that Temirkanov gets from his Peterburgers, Pletnev from the RNSO, or Sladkovsky from his Tatarstan ensemble all sound quite different from Gergiev's; in turn, they all sound much more Western than what Kondrashin, Svetlanov, Golovanov, Gauk, et al conjured last century.
phlmaestro2000
2021-02-07 00:57:37 UTC
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I've had the pleasure of hearing Gergiev conduct several times, both as guest conductor and at the helm of the Mariinsky. The sound he draws is gritty, brawny; definitely a unique sonority. >
Likewise, and I agree with that characterization. I don't think I've ever heard him conduct Tchaikovsky though. I think he avoided Russian music in his several guest appearances in Philadelphia and he led music by other Russian composers the two or three times I saw him with the Mariinsky.
--
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Néstor Castiglione
2021-02-07 01:10:57 UTC
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Post by phlmaestro2000
I've had the pleasure of hearing Gergiev conduct several times, both as guest conductor and at the helm of the Mariinsky. The sound he draws is gritty, brawny; definitely a unique sonority. >
Likewise, and I agree with that characterization. I don't think I've ever heard him conduct Tchaikovsky though. I think he avoided Russian music in his several guest appearances in Philadelphia and he led music by other Russian composers the two or three times I saw him with the Mariinsky.
--
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The first time I heard Gergiev live was in 1995, when yours truly was still in junior high. He was here in Los Angeles conducting some all-Tchaikovsky. He avoided programming the hits. The big work he led was the "Manfred Symphony," my first time hearing it. Bowled me over. I was also fortunate enough to have been permitted to sit in on the rehearsals for that performance. As I recall, Gergiev told the LAPO that he had practically just arrived from LAX, and had no time to sleep. He then told the orchestra that the score was still new to him and that they'd be learning it together. You couldn't tell all that from the performance he got. It sounded as if he had been living with the symphony his whole life, so persuasive and gripping was his reading.
dk
2021-02-07 01:13:14 UTC
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Post by Néstor Castiglione
Post by Phl Maestro
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Post by dk
Post by dk
Post by Al Eisner
By the way, I was rather taken with the Mravinsky approach to Francesca
(I have yet to listen to any of dk's mystery tracks, which I intend to
at least dip into.) But not so much in his non-pathetic Pathétique.
Thanks! I do not find Mravinsky's Pathetique(s) as convincing as
his 4th and 5th Tchaikovsky symphonies. incidentally, one of the
7 "finalists" is a Mravinsky performance. Can you figure out which?
Just to clarify -- I was referring to the 7 Francesca "finalists", not the
Pathetique ones, which have not been posted yet!
Yes, that is how I understood your response. I expect to have time
soon to listen to at least some of the Francesca's. I doubt if I
would have similar time for the Pathétiques, at least not all the way
through. (But do try to audition that Fricsay Orfeo before you decide.)
The Pathetique I posted is broken into individual movements so
one can sample and listen to smaller bites. I have the Orfeo disc,
and it is also available on YT in the Bavarian Radio Symphony
Orchestra - Topic channel. It sounds too "driven" to my ears,
and the orchestra does not sound "Russian". While this may
be difficult to explain, anyone listening to the one I posted
will not fail to notice the difference.
Thanks again for the advice.
What would be a "Russian" sound? Are you talking about the old Soviet sound, or what Russian orchestras sound like to day, which is basically indistinguishable from their Western counterparts? Recall that Tchaikovsky was often criticized by The Mighty Five and their partisans for being an un-Russian cosmopolitan, more European than anything else. So one could argue that the sound of a Western orchestra would be more "authentic" or "truer" to his intentions (whatever those were).
I recall there being some excitement on here some years back
(maybe 8-10 years?) when Gergiev led a live Tchaikovsky symphony
cycle with his Russian orchestra that was broadcast or uploaded for
people to hear and that the sound of the orchestra was part of the
discussion.
I've had the pleasure of hearing Gergiev conduct several times, both
as guest conductor and at the helm of the Mariinsky. The sound he
draws is gritty, brawny; definitely a unique sonority. Whether one
could call it typically "Russian" is up to the beholder, I suppose. It
certainly sounds like no other Russian orchestra I've heard, whether
from today or yesteryear.
Oh boy, are you inconsistent! Didn't you just tell us a moment ago
that "Russian orchestral sound" was "practically indistinguishable"
from the sound of Western orchestras? The Gergiev Tchaikovsky
Symphonies series is available on YouTube on the wocomo Studio
channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/wocomoStudio. And yes,
that sound is closer to what I mean by "Russian orchestra sound".
Post by Néstor Castiglione
The sonority that Temirkanov gets from his Peterburgers,
How do his peterburgers taste? Are they drenched in A1 or in
Worcestershire?
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Pletnev from the RNSO, or Sladkovsky from his Tatarstan
ensemble all sound quite different from Gergiev's;
Obviously. He is also a far better conductor.
Post by Néstor Castiglione
in turn, they all sound much more Western than what
Kondrashin, Svetlanov, Golovanov, Gauk, et al conjured
last century.
A large fraction of which is definitely related to recording
technique rather than interpretive choice. Would anyone
expect Kondrashin's or Mravinsky's orchestras recorded
by Melodiya during the 1950s to sound the same as
Pletnev's recorded by DG in 2010? What one hears in
a recording is almost never the same as what one
hears in the hall during a live peformance.

dk
Néstor Castiglione
2021-02-07 01:36:54 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Post by Phl Maestro
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Post by dk
Post by dk
Post by Al Eisner
By the way, I was rather taken with the Mravinsky approach to Francesca
(I have yet to listen to any of dk's mystery tracks, which I intend to
at least dip into.) But not so much in his non-pathetic Pathétique.
Thanks! I do not find Mravinsky's Pathetique(s) as convincing as
his 4th and 5th Tchaikovsky symphonies. incidentally, one of the
7 "finalists" is a Mravinsky performance. Can you figure out which?
Just to clarify -- I was referring to the 7 Francesca "finalists", not the
Pathetique ones, which have not been posted yet!
Yes, that is how I understood your response. I expect to have time
soon to listen to at least some of the Francesca's. I doubt if I
would have similar time for the Pathétiques, at least not all the way
through. (But do try to audition that Fricsay Orfeo before you decide.)
The Pathetique I posted is broken into individual movements so
one can sample and listen to smaller bites. I have the Orfeo disc,
and it is also available on YT in the Bavarian Radio Symphony
Orchestra - Topic channel. It sounds too "driven" to my ears,
and the orchestra does not sound "Russian". While this may
be difficult to explain, anyone listening to the one I posted
will not fail to notice the difference.
Thanks again for the advice.
What would be a "Russian" sound? Are you talking about the old Soviet sound, or what Russian orchestras sound like to day, which is basically indistinguishable from their Western counterparts? Recall that Tchaikovsky was often criticized by The Mighty Five and their partisans for being an un-Russian cosmopolitan, more European than anything else. So one could argue that the sound of a Western orchestra would be more "authentic" or "truer" to his intentions (whatever those were).
I recall there being some excitement on here some years back
(maybe 8-10 years?) when Gergiev led a live Tchaikovsky symphony
cycle with his Russian orchestra that was broadcast or uploaded for
people to hear and that the sound of the orchestra was part of the
discussion.
I've had the pleasure of hearing Gergiev conduct several times, both
as guest conductor and at the helm of the Mariinsky. The sound he
draws is gritty, brawny; definitely a unique sonority. Whether one
could call it typically "Russian" is up to the beholder, I suppose. It
certainly sounds like no other Russian orchestra I've heard, whether
from today or yesteryear.
Oh boy, are you inconsistent! Didn't you just tell us a moment ago
that "Russian orchestral sound" was "practically indistinguishable"
from the sound of Western orchestras?
Oh boy, are you in need of remedial English language comprehension skills. My post said that such a sound could be defined as "Russian" by the beholder if they chose to do so. I do not. Gergiev's sound is typical of Gergiev and unlike anything else produced in Russia on records. What you define as being typically "Russian" is nothing of the sort if one were to judge by recorded evidence of Russian orchestras. Today they tend to sound more Western. I'm not the only listener who has noticed this; the homogenization of orchestral sonority has been often discussed in the past quarter century. As for how you determined that the mid-20th century Russian sound preserved on records is not really Russian at all, but rather a Soviet fabrication, all I can say is you seem pretty lucid for a sesquicentenarian who evidently has first-hand experience with the sound of pre-revolutionary Russian orchestras.
dk
2021-02-07 01:00:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Post by dk
The Pathetique I posted is broken into individual movements so
one can sample and listen to smaller bites. I have the Orfeo disc,
and it is also available on YT in the Bavarian Radio Symphony
Orchestra - Topic channel. It sounds too "driven" to my ears,
and the orchestra does not sound "Russian". While this may
be difficult to explain, anyone listening to the one I posted
will not fail to notice the difference.
Thanks again for the advice.
What would be a "Russian" sound?
A certain blend and balance of the strings, the brass and the winds
that produces different timbres and sound textures than the typical
north American or European orchestras. Among the latter only the
the Dresden Staatskapelle and the Concertgebouw can sometimes
produce that sound under the right conductor. Also the Prague and
Budapest orchestras.

This is quite obvious to notice when listening. I will provide some
examples.
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Are you talking about the old Soviet sound,
There is no "old Soviet sounds", only old poorly produce recordings.
Russian musical tradition goes back long before the Soviets.
Post by Néstor Castiglione
or what Russian orchestras sound like to day, which is basically
indistinguishable from their Western counterparts?
You must certainly be joking! Even lab mice can tell the difference!
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Recall that Tchaikovsky was often criticized by The Mighty Five
and their partisans for being an un-Russian cosmopolitan, more
European than anything else.
That debate was about his works, not about orchestral sounds. It
was also rather meaningless. Please don't tell us Tchaikovsky's
symphonies sound basically indistinguishable from Brahms' or
Bruckner's.
Post by Néstor Castiglione
So one could argue that the sound of a Western orchestra would
be more "authentic" or "truer" to his intentions (whatever those were).
Even if this argument were hypothetically true, I couldn't care any
more than I care about Shakespeare's intentions when I watch
Hamlet.

dk
gggg gggg
2021-02-07 01:12:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Post by dk
The Pathetique I posted is broken into individual movements so
one can sample and listen to smaller bites. I have the Orfeo disc,
and it is also available on YT in the Bavarian Radio Symphony
Orchestra - Topic channel. It sounds too "driven" to my ears,
and the orchestra does not sound "Russian". While this may
be difficult to explain, anyone listening to the one I posted
will not fail to notice the difference.
Thanks again for the advice.
What would be a "Russian" sound?
A certain blend and balance of the strings, the brass and the winds
that produces different timbres and sound textures than the typical
north American or European orchestras. Among the latter only the
the Dresden Staatskapelle and the Concertgebouw can sometimes
produce that sound under the right conductor. Also the Prague and
Budapest orchestras.
This is quite obvious to notice when listening. I will provide some
examples.
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Are you talking about the old Soviet sound,
There is no "old Soviet sounds", only old poorly produce recordings.
Russian musical tradition goes back long before the Soviets.
Post by Néstor Castiglione
or what Russian orchestras sound like to day, which is basically
indistinguishable from their Western counterparts?
You must certainly be joking! Even lab mice can tell the difference!
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Recall that Tchaikovsky was often criticized by The Mighty Five
and their partisans for being an un-Russian cosmopolitan, more
European than anything else.
That debate was about his works, not about orchestral sounds. It
was also rather meaningless. Please don't tell us Tchaikovsky's
symphonies sound basically indistinguishable from Brahms' or
Bruckner's.
Post by Néstor Castiglione
So one could argue that the sound of a Western orchestra would
be more "authentic" or "truer" to his intentions (whatever those were).
Even if this argument were hypothetically true, I couldn't care any
more than I care about Shakespeare's intentions when I watch
Hamlet.
dk
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Patterns_in_Shakespearian_Tragedy/nbnbAAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22romeo%20and%20juliet,%20and%20some%20clue%20to%20Shakespeare%27s%20intentions%20in%20hamlet%20may%20be%20found%20in%20that%20earlier%20work%22
dk
2021-02-07 01:15:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by gggg gggg
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Patterns_in_Shakespearian_Tragedy/nbnbAAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22romeo%20and%20juliet,%20and%20some%20clue%20to%20Shakespeare%27s%20intentions%20in%20hamlet%20may%20be%20found%20in%20that%20earlier%20work%22
Please tell the quote bot to stop eavesdropping!
Better yet, lock him in the garage or in the cellar!

dk
gggg gggg
2021-02-07 02:58:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by gggg gggg
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Patterns_in_Shakespearian_Tragedy/nbnbAAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22romeo%20and%20juliet,%20and%20some%20clue%20to%20Shakespeare%27s%20intentions%20in%20hamlet%20may%20be%20found%20in%20that%20earlier%20work%22
Please tell the quote bot to stop eavesdropping!
Better yet, lock him in the garage or in the cellar!
dk
https://www.google.com/search?q=scuze+me+for+livin%27+gif&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwi-1Pbcgs3uAhVaIzQIHQlkBlYQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=scuze+me+for+livin%27+gif&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1Dw3AFYxOABYIrtAWgAcAB4AIABUIgBoAKSAQE0mAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=vjkaYL79KNrG0PEPiciZsAU&bih=657&biw=1366#imgrc=6bgLOLlSeNsiCM
Néstor Castiglione
2021-02-07 01:18:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Post by dk
The Pathetique I posted is broken into individual movements so
one can sample and listen to smaller bites. I have the Orfeo disc,
and it is also available on YT in the Bavarian Radio Symphony
Orchestra - Topic channel. It sounds too "driven" to my ears,
and the orchestra does not sound "Russian". While this may
be difficult to explain, anyone listening to the one I posted
will not fail to notice the difference.
Thanks again for the advice.
What would be a "Russian" sound?
A certain blend and balance of the strings, the brass and the winds
that produces different timbres and sound textures than the typical
north American or European orchestras. Among the latter only the
the Dresden Staatskapelle and the Concertgebouw can sometimes
produce that sound under the right conductor. Also the Prague and
Budapest orchestras.
Please define what a "certain blend and balance. . . that produces different timbres and sound textures" unique to Russian orchestras mean.
Post by dk
This is quite obvious to notice when listening. I will provide some
examples.
Let's hear 'em.
Post by dk
There is no "old Soviet sounds", only old poorly produce recordings.
Russian musical tradition goes back long before the Soviets.
So the intense vibrato of mid-20th century Russian brass, for example, which Shostakovich is on record as having preferred was a Soviet post-production trick?
Post by dk
You must certainly be joking! Even lab mice can tell the difference!
Can we get some lab mice in on this thread to confirm?
Post by dk
That debate was about his works, not about orchestral sounds. It
was also rather meaningless. Please don't tell us Tchaikovsky's
symphonies sound basically indistinguishable from Brahms' or
Bruckner's.
No, Tchaikovsky sounds like Tchaikovsky. But hard though it may be to believe, his music was attacked for being too European or German. Also, aren't the "orchestral sounds" an indivisible component of his "works?'
Post by dk
Even if this argument were hypothetically true, I couldn't care any
more than I care about Shakespeare's intentions when I watch
Hamlet.
We're in agreement there.
dk
2021-02-07 03:44:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Post by dk
Post by Néstor Castiglione
What would be a "Russian" sound?
A certain blend and balance of the strings, the brass and the winds
that produces different timbres and sound textures than the typical
north American or European orchestras. Among the latter only the
the Dresden Staatskapelle and the Concertgebouw can sometimes
produce that sound under the right conductor. Also the Prague and
Budapest orchestras.
Please define what a "certain blend and balance. . . that produces
different timbres and sound textures" unique to Russian orchestras
mean.
Post by dk
This is quite obvious to notice when listening. I will provide some
examples.
Let's hear 'em.
I have uploaded two recordings of Tchaikovsky's 5th Symphony to
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ft8ziza27b7jcqg/AAA0AU3f1U__RQrNgoP90vdBa?dl=0

One is by an echt Russian conductor conducting an echt Russian
orchestra, while the other is by an echt non-Russian conductor
(if one may use such a phrase) conducting an echt non-Russian
orchestra. I don't doubt for a moment you can all figure out which
is which!

Enjoy!

dk
dk
2021-02-07 05:14:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Post by dk
Post by Néstor Castiglione
What would be a "Russian" sound?
A certain blend and balance of the strings, the brass and the winds
that produces different timbres and sound textures than the typical
north American or European orchestras. Among the latter only the
the Dresden Staatskapelle and the Concertgebouw can sometimes
produce that sound under the right conductor. Also the Prague and
Budapest orchestras.
Please define what a "certain blend and balance. . . that produces
different timbres and sound textures" unique to Russian orchestras
mean.
Post by dk
This is quite obvious to notice when listening. I will provide some
examples.
Let's hear 'em.
I have uploaded two recordings of Tchaikovsky's 5th Symphony to
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ft8ziza27b7jcqg/AAA0AU3f1U__RQrNgoP90vdBa?dl=0
One is by an echt Russian conductor conducting an echt Russian
orchestra, while the other is by an echt non-Russian conductor
(if one may use such a phrase) conducting an echt non-Russian
orchestra. I don't doubt for a moment you can all figure out which
is which!
Hint: the differences are most audible in the 3rd movement.

dk
m***@gmail.com
2021-02-07 11:32:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by dk
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Post by dk
Post by Néstor Castiglione
What would be a "Russian" sound?
A certain blend and balance of the strings, the brass and the winds
that produces different timbres and sound textures than the typical
north American or European orchestras. Among the latter only the
the Dresden Staatskapelle and the Concertgebouw can sometimes
produce that sound under the right conductor. Also the Prague and
Budapest orchestras.
Please define what a "certain blend and balance. . . that produces
different timbres and sound textures" unique to Russian orchestras
mean.
Post by dk
This is quite obvious to notice when listening. I will provide some
examples.
Let's hear 'em.
I have uploaded two recordings of Tchaikovsky's 5th Symphony to
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ft8ziza27b7jcqg/AAA0AU3f1U__RQrNgoP90vdBa?dl=0
One is by an echt Russian conductor conducting an echt Russian
orchestra, while the other is by an echt non-Russian conductor
(if one may use such a phrase) conducting an echt non-Russian
orchestra. I don't doubt for a moment you can all figure out which
is which!
Hint: the differences are most audible in the 3rd movement.
dk
Take 2 seems to be Karajan 1971?
m***@gmail.com
2021-02-07 11:34:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by dk
Post by Néstor Castiglione
Post by dk
Post by Néstor Castiglione
What would be a "Russian" sound?
A certain blend and balance of the strings, the brass and the winds
that produces different timbres and sound textures than the typical
north American or European orchestras. Among the latter only the
the Dresden Staatskapelle and the Concertgebouw can sometimes
produce that sound under the right conductor. Also the Prague and
Budapest orchestras.
Please define what a "certain blend and balance. . . that produces
different timbres and sound textures" unique to Russian orchestras
mean.
Post by dk
This is quite obvious to notice when listening. I will provide some
examples.
Let's hear 'em.
I have uploaded two recordings of Tchaikovsky's 5th Symphony to
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ft8ziza27b7jcqg/AAA0AU3f1U__RQrNgoP90vdBa?dl=0
One is by an echt Russian conductor conducting an echt Russian
orchestra, while the other is by an echt non-Russian conductor
(if one may use such a phrase) conducting an echt non-Russian
orchestra. I don't doubt for a moment you can all figure out which
is which!
Hint: the differences are most audible in the 3rd movement.
dk
Pretty sure Take 2 is Karajan 1971.
MELMOTH
2021-02-07 09:28:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Néstor Castiglione
What would be a "Russian" sound? Are you talking about the old Soviet sound,
or what Russian orchestras sound like to day, which is basically
indistinguishable from their Western counterparts? Recall that Tchaikovsky
was often criticized by The Mighty Five and their partisans for being an
un-Russian cosmopolitan, more European than anything else. So one could argue
that the sound of a Western orchestra would be more "authentic" or "truer" to
his intentions (whatever those were).
I DO agree with what you are saying...The best current example are
Gergiev's recordings with Russian orchestras (Mariinsky and others)!...
fomalhaut
2021-02-07 09:45:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
By alphabetical order :

Leonard Bernstein/New York Philharmonic (DGG)
Kriril Kondrashin/Moscow Philharmonic (Melodia)
Paul Van Kempen/Concertgebouw Orkest Amsterdam (Philips)

fomalhaut
dk
2021-02-07 19:06:54 UTC
Reply
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Post by fomalhaut
Leonard Bernstein/New York Philharmonic (DGG)
The 1986 live recording with the NYPD? Too wayward to my taste.
Post by fomalhaut
Kriril Kondrashin/Moscow Philharmonic (Melodia)
I prefer the 1967 live performance from Tokyo with the same
orchestra. Kondrashin however is not my favorite Russian
conductor. He tended to produce textbookish readings with
just a bit of spice added.
Post by fomalhaut
Paul Van Kempen/Concertgebouw Orkest Amsterdam (Philips)
Now let's be serious!

dk
dk
2021-02-07 20:36:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by fomalhaut
Leonard Bernstein/New York Philharmonic (DGG)
The 1986 live recording with the NYPD? Too wayward to my taste.
Post by fomalhaut
Kriril Kondrashin/Moscow Philharmonic (Melodia)
I prefer the 1967 live performance from Tokyo with the same
orchestra. Kondrashin however is not my favorite Russian
conductor. He tended to produce textbookish readings with
just a bit of spice added.
Post by fomalhaut
Paul Van Kempen/Concertgebouw Orkest Amsterdam (Philips)
Now let's be serious!
Listening again to van Kempen just to double check.
It is simply ridiculous. The Finale is one of the most
mechanical, metronomical and expressionless on
record. This is a student conducting, not a master.

Recording quality is also abysmal. Mengelberg's
'30s and '40s recordings on Telefunken sound
better.

dk
dk
2021-02-06 18:56:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
My Pathetique project is running late. My headphones crapped
out and the replacements are slow to arrive. Many headphones
are in short supply or sold out because of the pandemic and the
lockdowns. I should be able to report in about 3 days.

dk
MELMOTH
2021-02-07 15:30:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
My Pathetique project is running late. My headphones crapped
out and the replacements are slow to arrive. Many headphones
are in short supply or sold out because of the pandemic and the
lockdowns. I should be able to report in about 3 days.
Which model did you choose ?...
dk
2021-02-07 19:23:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH
Post by dk
My Pathetique project is running late. My headphones crapped
out and the replacements are slow to arrive. Many headphones
are in short supply or sold out because of the pandemic and the
lockdowns. I should be able to report in about 3 days.
Which model did you choose ?...
I didn't "choose", just replaced my old Sennheiser HD 280 pair. I
would have ordered HD 600 if they weren't open. The HD 580
used to be my preferred cans, however they are discontinued.

dk
MELMOTH
2021-02-07 22:56:29 UTC
Reply
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Post by dk
I didn't "choose", just replaced my old Sennheiser HD 280 pair. I
would have ordered HD 600 if they weren't open. The HD 580
used to be my preferred cans, however they are discontinued.
For me, nothing is better than electrostatic headphones...
I have a Stax (with its amp)...
dk
2021-02-07 23:00:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH
Post by dk
I didn't "choose", just replaced my old Sennheiser HD 280 pair. I
would have ordered HD 600 if they weren't open. The HD 580
used to be my preferred cans, however they are discontinued.
For me, nothing is better than electrostatic headphones...
I have a Stax (with its amp)...
My wallet is not as fat as yours. I also don't feel
entirely comfortable with several hundred volts
running on wires around my head. Loudspeakers
are an entirely different story however.

dk
Chris J.
2021-02-03 09:19:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
All you need: Mravinsky (DG) and Currentzis (Sony). I could add Fischer
(Channel Classics). Contrasting performances. All three conductors have
something to say. Just listen.


Chris
tonyh
2021-02-03 11:59:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris J.
Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
All you need: Mravinsky (DG) and Currentzis (Sony). I could add Fischer
(Channel Classics). Contrasting performances. All three conductors have
something to say. Just listen.
Chris
Just my sentiments - though I would add into the mix Pletnev's first with the Russian National Orch which stands up well.
Phl Maestro
2021-02-03 13:46:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
dk
Furtwangler/BPO/1938
Fricsay on Orfeo
If you can find the live Tennstedt/Philadelphia, that's a great one. I just checked Amazon and didn't see it, but I am pretty sure it's been out on the Memories label. It could be at Berkshire Record Outlet. I know they've offered it in the past.
MELMOTH
2021-02-03 13:50:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Phl Maestro
If you can find the live Tennstedt/Philadelphia, that's a great one. I just
checked Amazon and didn't see it, but I am pretty sure it's been out on the
Memories label. It could be at Berkshire Record Outlet. I know they've
offered it in the past.

phlmaestro2000
2021-02-03 14:27:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by MELMOTH
Post by Phl Maestro
If you can find the live Tennstedt/Philadelphia, that's a great one. I just
checked Amazon and didn't see it, but I am pretty sure it's been out on the
Memories label. It could be at Berkshire Record Outlet. I know they've
offered it in the past.
http://youtu.be/8tNxj1WbB2s
Right. Or there is that. Thank you.
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Phl Maestro
2021-02-03 14:28:08 UTC
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Post by MELMOTH
Post by Phl Maestro
If you can find the live Tennstedt/Philadelphia, that's a great one. I just
checked Amazon and didn't see it, but I am pretty sure it's been out on the
Memories label. It could be at Berkshire Record Outlet. I know they've
offered it in the past.
http://youtu.be/8tNxj1WbB2s
Or there is that. Thank you.
Phl Maestro
2021-02-03 13:49:19 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
dk
Furtwangler/BPO/1938
Fricsay on Orfeo
If you can find the live Tennstedt/Philadelphia, that's a great one. I just checked Amazon and didn't see it, but I am pretty sure it's been out on the Memories label. It could be at Berkshire Record Outlet. I know they've offered it in the past. This performance has what has to be the most thrilling third movement on record. The buzz in the audience goes on for a while before they calm down for the finale to begin.
dk
2021-02-05 18:38:57 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Phl Maestro
Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
Furtwangler/BPO/1938
Fricsay on Orfeo
If you can find the live Tennstedt/Philadelphia, that's a great one. I
just checked Amazon and didn't see it, but I am pretty sure it's been
out on the Memories label. It could be at Berkshire Record Outlet. I
know they've offered it in the past. This performance has what has
to be the most thrilling third movement on record. The buzz in the
audience goes on for a while before they calm down for the finale
to begin.
Thanks! I have the recordings, will review.

dk
Bob Harper
2021-02-06 00:14:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Phl Maestro
Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
Furtwangler/BPO/1938
Fricsay on Orfeo
If you can find the live Tennstedt/Philadelphia, that's a great one. I
just checked Amazon and didn't see it, but I am pretty sure it's been
out on the Memories label. It could be at Berkshire Record Outlet. I
know they've offered it in the past. This performance has what has
to be the most thrilling third movement on record. The buzz in the
audience goes on for a while before they calm down for the finale
to begin.
Thanks! I have the recordings, will review.
dk
I once downloaded a Szell performance from the Blossom Music Festival,
1968 I believe. You should try to hear it if possible. I've not heard
the Tennstedt (which I suspect is pretty terrific), but the Szell has
the most thrilling 3rd movement I've ever heard. The audience goes crazy
at the end of it for a full 90 seconds before the Finale begins. I can
imagine Szell standing there grinning at his players as if to say, "We
really showed 'em, didn't we!"

Bob Harper
dk
2021-02-06 01:12:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by dk
Post by Phl Maestro
Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
Furtwangler/BPO/1938
Fricsay on Orfeo
If you can find the live Tennstedt/Philadelphia, that's a great one. I
just checked Amazon and didn't see it, but I am pretty sure it's been
out on the Memories label. It could be at Berkshire Record Outlet. I
know they've offered it in the past. This performance has what has
to be the most thrilling third movement on record. The buzz in the
audience goes on for a while before they calm down for the finale
to begin.
Thanks! I have the recordings, will review.
I once downloaded a Szell performance from the Blossom Music Festival,
1968 I believe. You should try to hear it if possible. I've not heard
the Tennstedt (which I suspect is pretty terrific), but the Szell has
the most thrilling 3rd movement I've ever heard. The audience goes crazy
at the end of it for a full 90 seconds before the Finale begins. I can
imagine Szell standing there grinning at his players as if to say, "We
really showed 'em, didn't we!"
From your description I doubt I would like it. Is it similar to
this one


In general I find the Szell/Cleveland sound far too dry for
Tchaikovsky. I am also more interested in the final movement
than in the 3rd. Plenty of conductors can whip up a march
when called for. The Adagio lamentoso is far more difficult
to pull off.

dk
dk
2021-02-06 01:19:13 UTC
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Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Bob Harper
Post by dk
Post by Phl Maestro
Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
Furtwangler/BPO/1938
Fricsay on Orfeo
If you can find the live Tennstedt/Philadelphia, that's a great one. I
just checked Amazon and didn't see it, but I am pretty sure it's been
out on the Memories label. It could be at Berkshire Record Outlet. I
know they've offered it in the past. This performance has what has
to be the most thrilling third movement on record. The buzz in the
audience goes on for a while before they calm down for the finale
to begin.
Thanks! I have the recordings, will review.
I once downloaded a Szell performance from the Blossom Music Festival,
1968 I believe. You should try to hear it if possible. I've not heard
the Tennstedt (which I suspect is pretty terrific), but the Szell has
the most thrilling 3rd movement I've ever heard. The audience goes crazy
at the end of it for a full 90 seconds before the Finale begins. I can
imagine Szell standing there grinning at his players as if to say, "We
really showed 'em, didn't we!"
From your description I doubt I would like it. Is it similar to
this one http://youtu.be/1dMhBcIVjf8
I am listening to this right now and I don't like it. To my ears
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fw5amxxnc0cfl2m/AAAZHejBy5RBo9Sxuu0T-dT8a?dl=0
is much better! And the 3rd movement beats Szell by a league.
Szell's Adagio lamentoso sounds like he is trying hard not to
miss the 5 pm train out of the city!

dk
Herman
2021-02-06 08:33:23 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
. The audience goes crazy
at the end of it for a full 90 seconds before the Finale begins. I can
imagine Szell standing there grinning at his players as if to say, "We
really showed 'em, didn't we!"
Bob Harper
That's not what's supposed to happen. Same with the triangle scherzo in Brahms 4. If the audience thinks the symphony is over, the effect is totally wrong.
Mark Melson
2021-02-06 14:53:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by Bob Harper
. The audience goes crazy
at the end of it for a full 90 seconds before the Finale begins. I can
imagine Szell standing there grinning at his players as if to say, "We
really showed 'em, didn't we!"
Bob Harper
That's not what's supposed to happen. Same with the triangle scherzo in Brahms 4. If the audience thinks the symphony is over, the effect is totally wrong.
In the late 1980s, Jerzy Semkow conducted a riveting Pathetique with the Dallas Symphony. I asked him backstage if it bothered him that there was applause after the third movement. He said "No! It bothers me that they applauded after the LAST movement! It is a requiem for a human soul!"

Mark
Bob Harper
2021-02-06 18:23:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by Bob Harper
. The audience goes crazy
at the end of it for a full 90 seconds before the Finale begins. I can
imagine Szell standing there grinning at his players as if to say, "We
really showed 'em, didn't we!"
Bob Harper
That's not what's supposed to happen. Same with the triangle scherzo in Brahms 4. If the audience thinks the symphony is over, the effect is totally wrong.
No doubt true, but it IS what frequently happens. That said, one of my
greatest concert experiences was a performance by Mariss Jansons and the
BRSO in 2004. At the end of the (thrillingly played) third movement, the
audience was about to explode in the usual way when Jansons held up his
hands and obtained complete silence before he proceeded with the Finale.
It was as extraordinary an example of a conductor's force of personality
as I've ever witnessed.

Bob Harper
dk
2021-02-06 18:53:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Herman
Post by Bob Harper
. The audience goes crazy
at the end of it for a full 90 seconds before the Finale begins. I can
imagine Szell standing there grinning at his players as if to say, "We
really showed 'em, didn't we!"
That's not what's supposed to happen. Same with the triangle scherzo
in Brahms 4. If the audience thinks the symphony is over, the effect is
totally wrong.
No doubt true, but it IS what frequently happens. That said, one of my
greatest concert experiences was a performance by Mariss Jansons and the
BRSO in 2004. At the end of the (thrillingly played) third movement, the
audience was about to explode in the usual way when Jansons held up his
hands and obtained complete silence before he proceeded with the Finale.
It was as extraordinary an example of a conductor's force of personality
as I've ever witnessed.
Concert audiences should hand over their cellphones and be handcuffed
before they can be allowed into the hall. They should also have their ears
cleaned and be provided with diapers!

dk
Owen
2021-02-07 04:35:24 UTC
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Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Herman
Post by Bob Harper
. The audience goes crazy
at the end of it for a full 90 seconds before the Finale begins. I can
imagine Szell standing there grinning at his players as if to say, "We
really showed 'em, didn't we!"
That's not what's supposed to happen. Same with the triangle scherzo
in Brahms 4. If the audience thinks the symphony is over, the effect is
totally wrong.
No doubt true, but it IS what frequently happens. That said, one of my
greatest concert experiences was a performance by Mariss Jansons and the
BRSO in 2004. At the end of the (thrillingly played) third movement, the
audience was about to explode in the usual way when Jansons held up his
hands and obtained complete silence before he proceeded with the Finale.
It was as extraordinary an example of a conductor's force of personality
as I've ever witnessed.
Concert audiences should hand over their cellphones and be handcuffed
before they can be allowed into the hall. They should also have their ears
cleaned and be provided with diapers!
All these precautions are already written into the next mandatory Covid
restrictions guidelines coming soon.

-Owen
Reinhold Gliere
2021-02-06 15:48:16 UTC
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Post by Bob Harper
Post by Bob Harper
The audience goes crazy
at the end of it for a full 90 seconds before the Finale begins.
Perhaps more closely related, something like this can happen during the finale of Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony. Many conductors are prepared with a way to signal to the audience that the Symphony isn't over just yet.
Post by Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Ricardo Jimenez
2021-02-03 16:39:51 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
dk
The performance on the 2007 DVD "Norriington - The Romantics" with
Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart des SWR is accompanied by a very
interesting lecture on the work as well as rehearsal footage. I find
the lack of vibrato makes the Pathétique more enjoyable. The DVD also
has works by Wagner and Berlioz.
dk
2021-02-05 20:40:02 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Ricardo Jimenez
Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
The performance on the 2007 DVD "Norriington - The Romantics" with
Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart des SWR is accompanied by a very
interesting lecture on the work as well as rehearsal footage. I find
the lack of vibrato makes the Pathétique more enjoyable. The DVD
also has works by Wagner and Berlioz.
Thanks for the pointer. I doubt I will enjoy Norrington's Tchaikovsky.
His SWR performance is available on YT, and it runs under 45 minutes!
In general, I do not find the faster Pathetiques < 50 minutes satisfying.
I also suspect the SWR does not sound like a Russian orchestra. I will
sample the key sections I consider critical to the work's structure.

dk
dk
2021-02-05 21:05:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Ricardo Jimenez
Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
The performance on the 2007 DVD "Norriington - The Romantics" with
Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart des SWR is accompanied by a very
interesting lecture on the work as well as rehearsal footage. I find
the lack of vibrato makes the Pathétique more enjoyable. The DVD
also has works by Wagner and Berlioz.
Thanks for the pointer. I doubt I will enjoy Norrington's Tchaikovsky.
His SWR performance is available on YT, and it runs under 45 minutes!
In general, I do not find the faster Pathetiques < 50 minutes satisfying.
I also suspect the SWR does not sound like a Russian orchestra. I will
sample the key sections I consider critical to the work's structure.
I just sampled several key sections, including the openings of the 2nd
and 4th movements, the finale and a few others. I was not surprised by
what I heard, however I was surprised by how bad it was! To my ears
this is the worst Pathetique I ever heard! It sounds rushed, mechanical,
expressionless, inflectionless, metronomic. One never gets an impression
of any emotional involvement from the conductor or the orchestra, which
sounds almost like a synthesizer. I would like to make clear that I have no
intention to be dismissive towards Ricardo -- the only reason I state this is
to provide a context and a frame of reference for my upcoming analysis of
several other performances. From my point of view this one is a perfect
illustration of how not to perform the Pathetique!

Here is a link to the current front runner in my traversal:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fw5amxxnc0cfl2m/AAAZHejBy5RBo9Sxuu0T-dT8a?dl=0

See what you think.

dk
Neil
2021-02-03 20:22:36 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
dk
For something a bit different. Horenstein or Mackerras.

BBC building a library picked Karajan recently. Not sure which recording but a DGG one. I must listen to it one day. Karajan could be terrific in these dark, powerful works like Sibelius 4.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07dk7kk
dk
2021-02-05 18:40:46 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
For something a bit different. Horenstein or Mackerras.
BBC building a library picked Karajan recently. Not sure which
recording but a DGG one. I must listen to it one day. Karajan
could be terrific in these dark, powerful works like Sibelius 4.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07dk7kk
Karajan's Sibelius 4 is indeed very good. I have the recording.
For Tchaikovsky I find his approach too heavy handed.

dk
M&S Frost
2021-02-05 21:34:12 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
dk
IMHO you can't go wrong with any of these:

1- Mravinsky/Leningrad (1982) on Erato
2- Bernstein on DG
3- Currentzis
4- Honeck

All are excellent, each in its own way.

MIFrost
Sol L. Siegel
2021-02-08 16:01:40 UTC
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Post by dk
Recommendations, please!
TIA
dk
The ones I own that I listen to most:

Giulini/Philharmonia (beauty and nobility)
Fricsay (because Fricsay - the stereo version)
Pletnev/Virgin (can't tell you how he does it; he just does it)
Mravinsky (because Mravinsky)
Cantelli (Philharmonia and NBC - like Fricsay, he never seems to
have dialed it in)

Of course, we hardly ever agree on anything. d;>)

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
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