Josquin anniversary

[Todd Michel McComb]

So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....

Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....

This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.

I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

[number_six]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

The cds I have with music by this composer are a fairly predictable array --

Pro Cantione Antiqua, Philip Pickett, La Nef, Piffaro and Ensemble Clement Janequin.

I'm not actively looking for more, but if a new release sets the early music world on fire, would probably give it a try.

[Mandryka]

Post by number_six

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

The cds I have with music by this composer are a fairly predictable array --
Pro Cantione Antiqua, Philip Pickett, La Nef, Piffaro and Ensemble Clement Janequin.
I'm not actively looking for more, but if a new release sets the early music world on fire, would probably give it a try.

Well I was in the Utrecht festival in 2017 when it was focused on music from Josquin’s time, and I must have seen more than half a dozen Josquin masses. All of them were performed with the emphasis on beautiful tone and fluid articulation and smooth polyphony and consonant cross relations, and equal temperament.

Bjorn Schmelzer, who was running the festival that year, avoided Josquin as far as I recall. Shame that!

I saw Giuseppe Maletto do a mass there and it was OK, but it didn’t take off. I haven’t had a chance to hear his new recording of motets properly yet, but just dipping in makes me think that I’ll enjoy the brass and the sound quality. I’ll give it some more attention this weekend.

[Mandryka]

Post by Mandryka

Post by number_six

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

The cds I have with music by this composer are a fairly predictable array --
Pro Cantione Antiqua, Philip Pickett, La Nef, Piffaro and Ensemble Clement Janequin.
I'm not actively looking for more, but if a new release sets the early music world on fire, would probably give it a try.

Well I was in the Utrecht festival in 2017 when it was focused on music from Josquin’s time, and I must have seen more than half a dozen Josquin masses. All of them were performed with the emphasis on beautiful tone and fluid articulation and smooth polyphony and consonant cross relations, and equal temperament.
Bjorn Schmelzer, who was running the festival that year, avoided Josquin as far as I recall. Shame that!
I saw Giuseppe Maletto do a mass there and it was OK, but it didn’t take off. I haven’t had a chance to hear his new recording of motets properly yet, but just dipping in makes me think that I’ll enjoy the brass and the sound quality. I’ll give it some more attention this weekend.

As far as the music being left on the page is concerned, I’ll just mention that the more Josquin I hear the more I’m impressed by Orlando Consort’s motets recording, because of the tuning. The harmonies sound so much more interesting on that recording! And Rebecca Stewart’s recording with Cappella Pratensis - for everything - harmony, counterpoint, projection, the lot!

[Joe Markley]

Post by Mandryka
And Rebecca Stewart’s recording with Cappella Pratensis - for everything - harmony, counterpoint, projection, the lot!

Cappella Pratensis continues to do outstanding work--their recording of Josquin's Missa Ave Maris Stella is top-notch.

Joe Markley
Plantsville, Connecticut

[Mandryka]

The new Cantica Symphonia recording features a rarity, and a beaut -- Ecce tu pulchra est.

It also features nearly all of the Vultum Tuum cycle. I have another version of it, this time with a larger choir, on a recording by James O'Donnell.

I'm going to say something maybe naive about the Cantica Symphonia release. The first time I heard a Josquin concert in a real renaissance church I was gobsmacked by the sound. Sound -- tasty tangy complex sounds -- that's a major part of Josquin's art. The Cantica Symphonia disc capture a bit of that.

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Mandryka
The first time I heard a Josquin concert in a real renaissance
church I was gobsmacked by the sound. Sound -- tasty tangy complex
sounds -- that's a major part of Josquin's art. The Cantica
Symphonia disc capture a bit of that.

I agree that the acoustics of performance is another basic issue
with recordings of music from this era, compounding the other
difficulties. I try to be as accommodating on this point as possible,
since I'm usually fretting about other aspects. However, it does
sometimes bother me. Beauty Farm has tried various approaches on
acoustics, for instance, sometimes to dubious effect really, but
it's better than the "total haze" approach of some... actually their
most recent Gombert might be the best yet as far as balancing
acoustics. (I'd have reviewed that already, but I'm unsure whether
the audio problem is because of the review download or the original
production. Actually I hesitate to mention this in public, since
it may well be the former, and so not an association this double
album needs.... Awaiting word from the North American agent....)
That said, I agree, the new Cantica Syphonia disc has a good "sound."
I enjoy some of the tracks quite a bit. I didn't feel it really
challenged/expanded my view of Josquin, but I do enjoy what they've
done.

[Mandryka]

Post by Joe Markley

Post by Mandryka
And Rebecca Stewart’s recording with Cappella Pratensis - for everything - harmony, counterpoint, projection, the lot!

Cappella Pratensis continues to do outstanding work--their recording of Josquin's Missa Ave Maris Stella is top-notch.
Joe Markley
Plantsville, Connecticut

Yes but their a different animal than they were in the Rebecca Stewart days, IMO less interesting for all fact, undoubted, that their work is outstanding.

For what it's worth I saw them a few years ago sing Obrecht's Missa Maria Zart using some major new performing edition that they sponsored. The concert fell flat, and I'm not surprised that they haven't released a recording.

[Andrew Clarke]

Post by Joe Markley

Post by Mandryka
And Rebecca Stewart’s recording with Cappella Pratensis - for everything - harmony, counterpoint, projection, the lot!

Cappella Pratensis continues to do outstanding work--their recording of Josquin's Missa Ave Maris Stella is top-notch.

Joe, I've just looked at the CVs of the singers on the Cappella Pratensis website, and it is a sobering experience. All experts in their field, and how.

<https://www.cappellapratensis.nl/en/singers/>

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Mandryka
All of them were performed with the emphasis on beautiful tone and
fluid articulation and smooth polyphony and consonant cross
relations, and equal temperament.

For a while now, it seems that many Josquin performances are more
"conservative" than most anything being done for his contemporaries.

Post by Mandryka
Bjorn Schmelzer, who was running the festival that year, avoided
Josquin as far as I recall.

And I'm not sure why so many of the best groups seem to avoid
Josquin. It's not as if there is really a big body of recording
work that can't be topped.

So maybe this all changes next year....

[Mandryka]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So maybe this all changes next year....

Yes maybe. If only Beauty Farm would do for Josquin what they did for Bauldeweyn.

[Mandryka]

Here's an interesting one. Missa Pange Lingue by Vocal Ensemble Cappella (Tetsuro Hanai)

[Todd Michel McComb]

If only Beauty Farm would do for Josquin what they did for Bauldeweyn.

I'd like to see Beauty Farm do for Josquin what they did for Gombert,
i.e. a double album of motets (if not two)!

Reauditioning the Orlando Consort motets album, a 1999 recording...
definitely an impressive attempt for the time, lots of precision
(although entirely mean-tone), but loses the plot regularly. Probably
still the best motet program (pace that the new Cantica Symphonia
is partly secular music)!

[Mandryka]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

If only Beauty Farm would do for Josquin what they did for Bauldeweyn.

I'd like to see Beauty Farm do for Josquin what they did for Gombert,
i.e. a double album of motets (if not two)!
Reauditioning the Orlando Consort motets album, a 1999 recording...
definitely an impressive attempt for the time, lots of precision
(although entirely mean-tone), but loses the plot regularly. Probably
still the best motet program (pace that the new Cantica Symphonia
is partly secular music)!

I'm going to have to listen again to Hilliard's Josquin to see if they sing with non-equal temperament.

Rogers Covey Crump wrote a series of essays on tuning for the three "Conductus" CDs he was part of -- it was evidently something he was exploring and presumably he passed on his enthusiasm for this type of experimentation to Orlando Consort.

I note in passing that as far as I can see Gothic Voices did not record one single second of music by Josquin Des Prez -- have I missed something obvious?

[Mandryka]

Post by Mandryka
I note in passing that as far as I can see Gothic Voices did not
record one single second of music by Josquin Des Prez -- have I
missed something obvious?

Nothing obvious. I don't there's even a track, as you say. They
did a La Rue disc, but that's as close as it gets. Most of their
recordings are of considerably earlier music.
(And Rogers Covey Crump did a lot of his work on tuning with/via
Gothic Voices. The famous "first" Pythagorean recording being with
Parrott....)

Is that the Machaut mass?

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Mandryka

The famous "first" Pythagorean recording being with Parrott....

Is that the Machaut mass?

Right. And the first Machaut album from Gothic Voices wasn't in
Pythagorean.

[gggg gggg]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

"Josquin des Prez and His Musical Legacy: An Introductory Guide" (2013 book):

https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt9qf18p

[gggg gggg]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

[gggg gggg]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical/c/gbmmsOGCizk

[gggg gggg]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western
music history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging
with that debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him
to be the best of his era myself, but did want to contextualize the
anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending
on volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in
this group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of
Josquin's best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to
this point. Getting the understanding together AND getting the
vocal technique together has taken a long time. To this point,
pace the other conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the
abstract/silly Kantian or Platonic sense) has been left on the page
-- so to speak. Some gets through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for
a long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tallis-scholars-josquin-des-pres-review-a-heavenly-album-zxcwljbpq

[Mandryka]

New recording from Dominique Visée of Josquin songs, it’s streaming on Qobuz

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Josquin-Desprez-Septiesme-Livre-Chansons/dp/B08NF1PFX4/ref=sr_1_4?crid=6991WTPA00L9&dchild=1&keywords=josquin&qid=1610528631&s=music&sprefix=Josquin%2Caps%2C143&sr=1-4

[Ricardo Jimenez]

On Wed, 13 Jan 2021 01:05:01 -0800 (PST), Mandryka

New recording from Dominique Visée of Josquin songs, it’s streaming on Qobuz
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Josquin-Desprez-Septiesme-Livre-Chansons/dp/B08NF1PFX4/ref=sr_1_4?crid=6991WTPA00L9&dchild=1&keywords=josquin&qid=1610528631&s=music&sprefix=Josquin%2Caps%2C143&sr=1-4

"Josquin Desprez: Septiesme livre de chansons" is also on Spotify.

[Todd Michel McComb]

New recording from Dominique Visse of Josquin songs, it's streaming
on Qobuz

I'll certainly hear this eventually, but it hasn't made its way to
me yet....

Could be interesting since they already have a Josquin album recorded
in 1988....

[Mandryka]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

New recording from Dominique Visse of Josquin songs, it's streaming
on Qobuz

I'll certainly hear this eventually, but it hasn't made its way to
me yet....
Could be interesting since they already have a Josquin album recorded
in 1988....

Talking of things recorded twice by the same artists, what to you think of Beauty Farm's two recordings of Gombert's Media Vita? The first seems to me to use a more interesting tuning than the second, the second seems to me to be more about being in control.

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by Mandryka
Talking of things recorded twice by the same artists, what to you
think of Beauty Farm's two recordings of Gombert's Media Vita? The
first seems to me to use a more interesting tuning than the second,
the second seems to me to be more about being in control.

I did review the new album. I like the new editions they are using,
and find them to be quite illuminating for the style of that
generation, particularly its elaboration to mass length. I agree,
though, that the first recording brings out more details of this
motet. The second comes off, consciously so I think, more as the
kernel of the larger work to be heard with it. The other motet is
one of their most striking tracks though.

[Ellie Ke]

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western music
history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging with that
debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him to be the best of
his era myself, but did want to contextualize the anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending on
volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in this
group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of Josquin's
best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to this point.
Getting the understanding together AND getting the vocal technique
together has taken a long time. To this point, pace the other
conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the abstract/silly Kantian
or Platonic sense) has been left on the page -- so to speak. Some gets
through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for a
long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

Stumbled upon this discussion and thought I'd join, as I am among those
excited about the possibility of many new Josquin recordings... Mostly I
hope we get some good motet collections, which I like much more than the
masses - but also, in masses, we already have the Tetsuro Hanai complete
set, which, merely by virtue of adhering to Rebecca Stewart's 'modal
singing' idea (and I should note those recordings are much more 'modal,'
in the Stewartian sense, than the Tetsuro Hanai video linked below), is so
much more satisfying than current alternatives that it's hard to imagine
new mass recordings sustaining interest. Since contextualizing 'modal
singing' via Stewart's mini-manifesto (http://cantusmodalis.org/, on the
off chance you haven't read it), I've become hyper-aware of how little
other supposedly radical performance aesthetics (Beauty Farm,
Graindelavoix) actually challenge certain underlying assumptions around
vocal technique embedded in the generic/ahistorical 'early music voice'...
And, as one final note about modal singing, the Josquin anniversary
project I'm most excited for is actually one that Stewart herself is
working on, which unfortunately may be delayed or canceled due to Covid...

All that said, I, too, would be delighted with a Beauty Farm or a
Graindelavoix Josquin, which would be plenty enjoyable in their own right!

[Todd Michel McComb]

Mostly I hope we get some good motet collections, ...

I agree, and there are some developments there already....

And, as one final note about modal singing, the Josquin anniversary
project I'm most excited for is actually one that Stewart herself
is working on, which unfortunately may be delayed or canceled due
to Covid...

I don't share the degree of enthusiasm you have for Stewart's results
thus far, but I've been following the approach & will certainly
audition whatever is next. What is the planned project?

[Mandryka]

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Mostly I hope we get some good motet collections, ...

I agree, and there are some developments there already....

And, as one final note about modal singing, the Josquin anniversary
project I'm most excited for is actually one that Stewart herself
is working on, which unfortunately may be delayed or canceled due
to Covid...

I don't share the degree of enthusiasm you have for Stewart's results
thus far, but I've been following the approach & will certainly
audition whatever is next. What is the planned project?

I like the Josquin she did on O Admirabile Comercium. I have another CD with quite a few motets called Missus est Gabriel Angelus, but in truth I’ve hardly listened to it. Will do soon.

[Mandryka]

Post by Mandryka

Post by Todd Michel McComb

Mostly I hope we get some good motet collections, ...

I agree, and there are some developments there already....

And, as one final note about modal singing, the Josquin anniversary
project I'm most excited for is actually one that Stewart herself
is working on, which unfortunately may be delayed or canceled due
to Covid...

I don't share the degree of enthusiasm you have for Stewart's results
thus far, but I've been following the approach & will certainly
audition whatever is next. What is the planned project?

I like the Josquin she did on O Admirabile Comercium. I have another CD with quite a few motets called Missus est Gabriel Angelus, but in truth I’ve hardly listened to it. Will do soon.

Some details about her new Josquin project here

https://fr-fr.facebook.com/Secondapratica/videos/this-is-one-of-dr-rebeccas-stewarts-first-choirbooks-containing-josquins-absolve/607763179695530/

[gggg gggg]

Post by Ellie Ke

Post by Todd Michel McComb
So 2021 is the 500th anniversary of the death of Josquin Desprez.
According to some people, he's the greatest composer in Western music
history. I don't have any particular interest in engaging with that
debate per se, and don't necessarily even consider him to be the best of
his era myself, but did want to contextualize the anniversary....
Are there people here who will be interested and/or following the
releases? I hope there are many releases. There have been a few
already, and my intent is to review all of them (well, depending on
volume & perhaps not if done in a modern style, etc.)....
This is far from symbolic for me. Pace discussions elsewhere in this
group (to which I often cannot relate), I'd say that much of Josquin's
best music has received mediocre (at best) renditions to this point.
Getting the understanding together AND getting the vocal technique
together has taken a long time. To this point, pace the other
conversation, I'd say most of "the music" (in the abstract/silly Kantian
or Platonic sense) has been left on the page -- so to speak. Some gets
through.
I've been eager for improved performances around this repertory for a
long time, and am hoping the anniversary will spur much. I mean,
things have continued to improve, slowly....

Stumbled upon this discussion and thought I'd join, as I am among those
excited about the possibility of many new Josquin recordings... Mostly I
hope we get some good motet collections...

According to this:

- ... The Binchois Consort, we get a program almost entirely devoted to Josquin, but in a very unique way: most of the works are motets...

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-8103/

[Todd Michel McComb]

Post by gggg gggg
- ... The Binchois Consort, we get a program almost entirely devoted
to Josquin, but in a very unique way: most of the works are motets...

Not unique at all, of course, including not "very." :-)

But the motets have been relatively neglected over the past couple
of decades. (This is cyclical. Already in Gustav Reese, motets
are given pride of place.)