Discussion:
Chopin Competition scoring
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Graham
2022-01-03 20:14:35 UTC
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https://chopin2020.pl/en/news/article/505/18th-chopin-competition---jurors'-scoring

https://tinyurl.com/2p9e6dw6

It appears that Liu led all three stages.
Andy Evans
2022-01-04 00:14:12 UTC
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I was pretty angry and disillusioned by the judging of this Chopin competition.

I just don't believe the judging was completely fair, and I prefer to put the whole thing behind me. I watched a lot of the competition up until the last stages when I simply gave up.

I didn't like Liu as much as others seem to have done, and I have no interest in his ongoing career. I did like some of the other pianists but I've had quite enough Chopin for now.
Frank Berger
2022-01-04 01:29:14 UTC
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Post by Andy Evans
I was pretty angry and disillusioned by the judging of this Chopin competition.
I just don't believe the judging was completely fair, and I prefer to put the whole thing behind me. I watched a lot of the competition up until the last stages when I simply gave up.
I didn't like Liu as much as others seem to have done, and I have no interest in his ongoing career. I did like some of the other pianists but I've had quite enough Chopin for now.
I assume that by "fair" you don't simply mean the results were not to your liking.

(There are people, mostly children, who upon losing a coin flip, say "That's not fair.")

So what leads you to think the judging wasn't fair? I'm not even sure what fair means. I suppose any judging decision that would have been made differently had he not known anything about the performer, including identity, gender, race, ethnicity and the like.
Andy Evans
2022-01-04 07:52:37 UTC
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Post by Frank Berger
Post by Andy Evans
I was pretty angry and disillusioned by the judging of this Chopin competition.
I just don't believe the judging was completely fair, and I prefer to put the whole thing behind me. I watched a lot of the competition up until the last stages when I simply gave up.
I didn't like Liu as much as others seem to have done, and I have no interest in his ongoing career. I did like some of the other pianists but I've had quite enough Chopin for now.
I assume that by "fair" you don't simply mean the results were not to your liking.
(There are people, mostly children, who upon losing a coin flip, say "That's not fair.")
So what leads you to think the judging wasn't fair? I'm not even sure what fair means. I suppose any judging decision that would have been made differently had he not known anything about the performer, including identity, gender, race, ethnicity and the like.
I'll believe that classical music competitions are "fair" when no judge has any past or present student in the competition. This isn't the case. And we haven't even started on nationalities or how competitors look and behave onstage, outside of the music itself, in a media world. I think you could turn the question round and ask "How would you expect competitions to be unbiased when the judges have vested interests".
Frank Berger
2022-01-04 13:02:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Andy Evans
I was pretty angry and disillusioned by the judging of this Chopin competition.
I just don't believe the judging was completely fair, and I prefer to put the whole thing behind me. I watched a lot of the competition up until the last stages when I simply gave up.
I didn't like Liu as much as others seem to have done, and I have no interest in his ongoing career. I did like some of the other pianists but I've had quite enough Chopin for now.
I assume that by "fair" you don't simply mean the results were not to your liking.
(There are people, mostly children, who upon losing a coin flip, say "That's not fair.")
So what leads you to think the judging wasn't fair? I'm not even sure what fair means. I suppose any judging decision that would have been made differently had he not known anything about the performer, including identity, gender, race, ethnicity and the like.
I'll believe that classical music competitions are "fair" when no judge has any past or present student in the competition. This isn't the case. And we haven't even started on nationalities or how competitors look and behave onstage, outside of the music itself, in a media world. I think you could turn the question round and ask "How would you expect competitions to be unbiased when the judges have vested interests".
No easy solutions. How did the figure skating world deal with the same problem? More judges to water down the effect of bias? Perhaps the teacher, past or present, of competitors should not be able judge their students? The most obvious solutionless conflict of interest situation that drives me nuts is the media (all media, Left, Right or Looney) to sensationalize the news.
JohnGavin
2022-01-04 13:14:51 UTC
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Post by Andy Evans
I was pretty angry and disillusioned by the judging of this Chopin competition.
I just don't believe the judging was completely fair, and I prefer to put the whole thing behind me. I watched a lot of the competition up until the last stages when I simply gave up.
Another point of view. I looked at the scores that Graham provided, and they reinforced my feeling that the judges decided fairly and expertly according to their experience. Of course opinions will vary and everyone will have their favorites. One formula that I go buy is the fact that no single pianist embodies all virtues, but as one very savvy judge put it, the winner is someone who evaluates their strengths and showcases them while admitting their weaknesses, and choosing repertoire accordingly.

Bruce Liu’s greatest strength is brilliance, widely varied articulation, virtuosity and clarity, and he demonstrated those faultlessly and continuously, with a one-pointed concentration that was highly impressive.

I enjoyed quite a few of the other contestants as well, but I don’t buy into the point of view that sensitivity trumps all other virtues. Not even in Chopin. It’s a part of great playing, not all or even most.

This is why I believe that in 2005, Kate Liu failed to take first prize, and Mr. Cho won. I thought the judges did a fine job in that competition as well.

Frankly, from watching Bruce Liu’s interviews, I’m not sure he even wants a performing career. There’s no telling where any of the contestants will be in 5 years.
HT
2022-01-04 16:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
I was pretty angry and disillusioned by the judging of this Chopin competition.
I just don't believe the judging was completely fair, and I prefer to put the whole thing behind me. I watched a lot of the competition up until the last stages when I simply gave up.
Another point of view. I looked at the scores that Graham provided, and they reinforced my feeling that the judges decided fairly and expertly according to their experience. Of course opinions will vary and everyone will have their favorites. One formula that I go buy is the fact that no single pianist embodies all virtues, but as one very savvy judge put it, the winner is someone who evaluates their strengths and showcases them while admitting their weaknesses, and choosing repertoire accordingly.
I took another look at the Stage III score. Teachers did not grade students. Anyone with a positive total (> 50) on "yes or no to the next round" became a finalist.

Overview (first number: average score on yes/no, second number: average number of points).

Lee 0.53 20.20
Rao 0,56 20,22
Amellini 0,56 20,55
Pacholec 0,64 20,43
Bui 0,67 21,31
Garcia 0,69 21,09
Sorita 0,80 21,57
Kobayashi 0,81 22,36
Gevorgyan 0,88 21,40
Gadjiev 0,88 21,75
Kuszlik 0,93 22,00
Liu 1.00 23.22

Some judges disagreed more often with the majority on whether someone should go through to the next round yes or no. > 7/22 times: Dang, Ebi (!!), Giusiano, Goerner and Lima.

Others differed less often. < 5/22 times: Sa Chen, Kenner, Olejniczak, Paleczny (!!!) and Poblocka.

Striking is the contrast between Ebi (12) and Paleczny (2).

Henk
Chris from Lafayette
2022-01-04 22:51:12 UTC
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This is why I believe that in 2005, Kate Liu failed to take first prize, and Mr. Cho won. I thought the judges did a fine job in that competition as well. . .
Nope! That was a complete and utter scandal that Kate Liu was not awarded first prize - and it was due entirely to Martha Argerich and her shadow stenographer among the judges, Akiko Ebi. Totally outrageous!
Dan Koren
2022-01-05 06:45:11 UTC
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Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by JohnGavin
This is why I believe that in 2005, Kate Liu
2015?
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by JohnGavin
failed to take first prize, and Mr. Cho won.
I thought the judges did a fine job in that
competition as well. . .
Nope! That was a complete and utter scandal
that Kate Liu was not awarded first prize - and
it was due entirely to Martha Argerich and her
shadow stenographer among the judges, Akiko
Ebi. Totally outrageous!
IMHO neither Kate Liu nor Rabbit Cho were first
proze material -- Ebi or no Ebi. Second prizes ex
aequo for both would have been more reasonable.

dk
Dan Koren
2022-01-05 12:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris from Lafayette
This is why I believe that in 2005, Kate Liu failed to take first prize, and Mr. Cho won. I thought the judges did a fine job in that competition as well. . .
Nope! That was a complete and utter scandal that Kate Liu was not awarded first prize - and it was due entirely to Martha Argerich and her shadow stenographer among the judges, Akiko Ebi. Totally outrageous!
Sure. What does that Argerich lady know about piano playing anyway?
And I’m sure Akiko Ebi lived in mortal fear of crossing her commander.
It’s funny how far some people will go to justify their favs.
You could always enjoy Ms. Liu’s many recordings.
Now let’s return to planet earth 🌍…….
.... or planet sea ...

https://thejapanesebar.com/food/ebi-nigiri-sushi-sashimi/

dk
Dan Koren
2022-01-05 13:13:33 UTC
Permalink
Sure. What does that Argerich lady know about piano playing anyway?
And I’m sure Akiko Ebi lived in mortal fear of crossing her commander.
Neither knows anything about piano playing.
Just listen to the horrible sound and to the
countless wrong notes!



dk
HT
2022-01-05 17:02:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris from Lafayette
This is why I believe that in 2005, Kate Liu failed to take first prize, and Mr. Cho won. I thought the judges did a fine job in that competition as well. . .
Nope! That was a complete and utter scandal that Kate Liu was not awarded first prize - and it was due entirely to Martha Argerich and her shadow stenographer among the judges, Akiko Ebi. Totally outrageous!
Sure. What does that Argerich lady know about piano playing anyway?
And I’m sure Akiko Ebi lived in mortal fear of crossing her commander.
It’s funny how far some people will go to justify their favs.
You could always enjoy Ms. Liu’s many recordings.
Now let’s return to planet earth 🌍…….
Argerich has/had a few not so very talented protégées and Ebi wanted to see Wiercinski, Gagliano, Sumino, Shindo, and Alexiewicz in the finals. She didn't like Rao, Bui, Pacholec, Sorita, and Gevorgyan. Even their tastes are strictly their own.

BTW, I loved Kate Liu at least as well as Cho and Bruce Liu.

Henk
JohnGavin
2022-01-05 17:28:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by HT
Post by Chris from Lafayette
This is why I believe that in 2005, Kate Liu failed to take first prize, and Mr. Cho won. I thought the judges did a fine job in that competition as well. . .
Nope! That was a complete and utter scandal that Kate Liu was not awarded first prize - and it was due entirely to Martha Argerich and her shadow stenographer among the judges, Akiko Ebi. Totally outrageous!
Sure. What does that Argerich lady know about piano playing anyway?
And I’m sure Akiko Ebi lived in mortal fear of crossing her commander.
It’s funny how far some people will go to justify their favs.
You could always enjoy Ms. Liu’s many recordings.
Now let’s return to planet earth 🌍…….
Argerich has/had a few not so very talented protégées and Ebi wanted to see Wiercinski, Gagliano, Sumino, Shindo, and Alexiewicz in the finals. She didn't like Rao, Bui, Pacholec, Sorita, and Gevorgyan. Even their tastes are strictly their own.
BTW, I loved Kate Liu at least as well as Cho and Bruce Liu.
Henk
I liked Kate Liu in the 2015 competition, but as the days proceeded, began to feel that her approach was too much the same piece after piece. I remember writing here at the time that she deserved 2nd place. I can agree with Dan that if Mr. Cho and Kate Liu had received 2nd prizes with no first prize awarded, it would have been fair, although I gave the edge to Mr. Cho.
Frank Berger
2022-01-05 18:56:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by HT
Post by Chris from Lafayette
This is why I believe that in 2005, Kate Liu failed to take first prize, and Mr. Cho won. I thought the judges did a fine job in that competition as well. . .
Nope! That was a complete and utter scandal that Kate Liu was not awarded first prize - and it was due entirely to Martha Argerich and her shadow stenographer among the judges, Akiko Ebi. Totally outrageous!
Sure. What does that Argerich lady know about piano playing anyway?
And I’m sure Akiko Ebi lived in mortal fear of crossing her commander.
It’s funny how far some people will go to justify their favs.
You could always enjoy Ms. Liu’s many recordings.
Now let’s return to planet earth 🌍…….
Argerich has/had a few not so very talented protégées and Ebi wanted to see Wiercinski, Gagliano, Sumino, Shindo, and Alexiewicz in the finals. She didn't like Rao, Bui, Pacholec, Sorita, and Gevorgyan. Even their tastes are strictly their own.
BTW, I loved Kate Liu at least as well as Cho and Bruce Liu.
Henk
I liked Kate Liu in the 2015 competition, but as the days proceeded, began to feel that her approach was too much the same piece after piece. I remember writing here at the time that she deserved 2nd place. I can agree with Dan that if Mr. Cho and Kate Liu had received 2nd prizes with no first prize awarded, it would have been fair,
Why would a different outcome be unfair? Wrong (in somebody's opinion) doesn't mean unfair. Also people forget that just because there may be a conflict of interest doesn't mean the judge acted on that interest.

although I gave the edge to Mr. Cho.
Dan Koren
2022-01-05 19:31:50 UTC
Permalink
Sure. What does that Argerich lady know about piano playing anyway?
And I’m sure Akiko Ebi lived in mortal fear of crossing her commander.

Show me a note-perfect recording of the complete
Chopin Etudes and I’ll show you a prolific splicing
and editing engineer!
I can show you Juana Zayas! ;-)

dk
Chris from Lafayette
2022-01-05 20:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Nope! That was a complete and utter scandal that Kate Liu was not awarded first prize - and it was due entirely to Martha Argerich and her shadow stenographer among the judges, Akiko Ebi. Totally outrageous!
Sure. What does that Argerich lady know about piano playing anyway?
And I’m sure Akiko Ebi lived in mortal fear of crossing her commander.
It’s funny how far some people will go to justify their favs.
You could always enjoy Ms. Liu’s many recordings.
Now let’s return to planet earth 🌍…….
Hey - I love Martha, but she was off in the deep end during that competition!
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