Discussion:
Chopin Etudes
(too old to reply)
Citizen
2006-05-04 01:09:06 UTC
Permalink
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?

I own (in no particular order):
Pollini (makes them sound almost too easy, but a bit colorless)
Cziffra (very intense, but not so good in the calmer etudes)
Cortot (very interesting, but way too many technical imperfections)
Cherkassky (I haven't listened in a while, but IIRC they aren't so
good)
Perahia (rather bland)
Ashkenazy (both technically and musically agreeable)
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)

I still haven't found an utterly satisfying set, however.

Any suggestions?
Vaneyes
2006-05-04 01:16:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
Pollini (makes them sound almost too easy, but a bit colorless)
Cziffra (very intense, but not so good in the calmer etudes)
Cortot (very interesting, but way too many technical imperfections)
Cherkassky (I haven't listened in a while, but IIRC they aren't so
good)
Perahia (rather bland)
Ashkenazy (both technically and musically agreeable)
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
I still haven't found an utterly satisfying set, however.
Any suggestions?
No.

Regards
Todd Schurk
2006-05-04 01:43:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vaneyes
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
Pollini (makes them sound almost too easy, but a bit colorless)
Cziffra (very intense, but not so good in the calmer etudes)
Cortot (very interesting, but way too many technical imperfections)
Cherkassky (I haven't listened in a while, but IIRC they aren't so
good)
Perahia (rather bland)
Ashkenazy (both technically and musically agreeable)
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
I still haven't found an utterly satisfying set, however.
Any suggestions?
No.
Regards
I'd like to second that.
Dan Koren
2006-05-04 02:04:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
Pollini (makes them sound almost too easy, but a bit colorless)
Cziffra (very intense, but not so good in the calmer etudes)
Cortot (very interesting, but way too many technical imperfections)
Cherkassky (I haven't listened in a while, but IIRC they aren't so
good)
Perahia (rather bland)
Ashkenazy (both technically and musically agreeable)
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
I still haven't found an utterly satisfying set, however.
Any suggestions?
For op. 25 Sokolov and Ginzburg.

For op. 10 no recommendation.



dk
Citizen
2006-05-04 02:16:26 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Koren:
Are either the Sokolov or the Ginsburg currently in print?
MIFrost
2006-05-04 02:26:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
Pollini (makes them sound almost too easy, but a bit colorless)
Cziffra (very intense, but not so good in the calmer etudes)
Cortot (very interesting, but way too many technical imperfections)
Cherkassky (I haven't listened in a while, but IIRC they aren't so
good)
Perahia (rather bland)
Ashkenazy (both technically and musically agreeable)
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
I still haven't found an utterly satisfying set, however.
Any suggestions?
Try Zayas.

MIFrost
Citizen
2006-05-04 02:58:53 UTC
Permalink
Juana Zayas? Interesting. Heard of the name before, but not any
recordings.
Can anyone describe/compare her playing to another pianist's?
Dan Koren
2006-05-04 06:07:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
Juana Zayas? Interesting. Heard of the name before, but not any
recordings.
Can anyone describe/compare her playing to another pianist's?
Light weight happy go lucky jeu perle.



dk
Dan Koren
2006-05-04 06:06:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by MIFrost
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
Pollini (makes them sound almost too easy, but a bit colorless)
Cziffra (very intense, but not so good in the calmer etudes)
Cortot (very interesting, but way too many technical imperfections)
Cherkassky (I haven't listened in a while, but IIRC they aren't so
good)
Perahia (rather bland)
Ashkenazy (both technically and musically agreeable)
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
I still haven't found an utterly satisfying set, however.
Any suggestions?
Try Zayas.
As a... laxative?



dk
tomdeacon
2006-05-04 11:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by MIFrost
Post by Citizen
Any suggestions?
Try Zayas.
And to go with them, how about two dozen Krispy Kreme donuts?

TD
Dan Koren
2006-05-04 21:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by MIFrost
Post by Citizen
Any suggestions?
Try Zayas.
And to go with them, how about two dozen Krispy Kreme donuts?
No, Deacon.

Meringues and profiteroles.



dk
tomdeacon
2006-05-05 01:15:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by tomdeacon
Post by MIFrost
Post by Citizen
Any suggestions?
Try Zayas.
And to go with them, how about two dozen Krispy Kreme donuts?
No, Deacon.
Meringues and profiteroles.
FAR too upscale.

TD
MIFrost
2006-05-05 20:05:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Dan Koren
Post by tomdeacon
Post by MIFrost
Post by Citizen
Any suggestions?
Try Zayas.
And to go with them, how about two dozen Krispy Kreme donuts?
No, Deacon.
Meringues and profiteroles.
FAR too upscale.
TD
All right, all right. I knew I'd get this reply. :-)

I have two recordings of the Etudes: Gavrilov and Zayas and, listening to
selections from both recordings in my car during my morning drive yesterday,
I find only slight differences in style. Zayas often sounds "softer" and
less percussive but at other times displays a wider dynamic range.
Nevertheless, the differences are, to my ears, minor. So what do you find so
extraordinarily lacking in her Etudes?

MIFrost

P.S. I also have some of the Etudes played by Horowitz and I think I'll make
another comparison on the drive in to work this morning.
Dan Koren
2006-05-05 23:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by MIFrost
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Dan Koren
Post by tomdeacon
Post by MIFrost
Post by Citizen
Any suggestions?
Try Zayas.
And to go with them, how about two dozen Krispy Kreme donuts?
No, Deacon.
Meringues and profiteroles.
FAR too upscale.
All right, all right. I knew I'd get this reply. :-)
I have two recordings of the Etudes: Gavrilov and Zayas and, listening to
selections from both recordings in my car during my morning drive
yesterday, I find only slight differences in style. Zayas often sounds
"softer" and less percussive but at other times displays a wider dynamic
range. Nevertheless, the differences are, to my ears, minor. So what do
you find so extraordinarily lacking in her Etudes?
a) if your ears can only hear "minor" differences
between Gavrilov and Zayas, they are probably
worn out and it's time for a new pair (spring
ears are now in fashion).

b) to the extent that Gavrilov and Zayas sound
similar, what they share is largely a lack
of interpretation.



dk
tomdeacon
2006-05-06 00:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by MIFrost
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Dan Koren
Post by tomdeacon
Post by MIFrost
Post by Citizen
Any suggestions?
Try Zayas.
And to go with them, how about two dozen Krispy Kreme donuts?
No, Deacon.
Meringues and profiteroles.
FAR too upscale.
All right, all right. I knew I'd get this reply. :-)
I have two recordings of the Etudes: Gavrilov and Zayas and, listening to
selections from both recordings in my car during my morning drive
yesterday, I find only slight differences in style. Zayas often sounds
"softer" and less percussive but at other times displays a wider dynamic
range. Nevertheless, the differences are, to my ears, minor. So what do
you find so extraordinarily lacking in her Etudes?
a) if your ears can only hear "minor" differences
between Gavrilov and Zayas, they are probably
worn out and it's time for a new pair (spring
ears are now in fashion).
b) to the extent that Gavrilov and Zayas sound
similar, what they share is largely a lack
of interpretation.
This is not helpful, Koren.

What is wrong with Zayas is her lack of distinctive personality. It is
all so incredibly "nice". I always want to take her by the neck and
shake her, just to see if there is a breathing human being involved in
the playing. Sort of PC carried to undreamed of heights. Or depths.
Whatever. Nausea sets in after about two or three etudes.

But I have to say I have the same reaction from Mr. Perahia, missing
bar aside. Just have to push the stop button or I will upchuck. Not my
usual reaction with Perahia, but it does happen in Bach and now Chopin.

The problem is: what's left?

Zayas gave up a career to have children. She is still wiping their
noses, musically, that is. She has had children, so you would think she
understood "rapture", but the playing belies that notion.

TD
unknown
2006-05-06 00:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Dan Koren
Post by MIFrost
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Dan Koren
Post by tomdeacon
Post by MIFrost
Post by Citizen
Any suggestions?
Try Zayas.
And to go with them, how about two dozen Krispy Kreme donuts?
No, Deacon.
Meringues and profiteroles.
FAR too upscale.
All right, all right. I knew I'd get this reply. :-)
I have two recordings of the Etudes: Gavrilov and Zayas and, listening to
selections from both recordings in my car during my morning drive
yesterday, I find only slight differences in style. Zayas often sounds
"softer" and less percussive but at other times displays a wider dynamic
range. Nevertheless, the differences are, to my ears, minor. So what do
you find so extraordinarily lacking in her Etudes?
a) if your ears can only hear "minor" differences
between Gavrilov and Zayas, they are probably
worn out and it's time for a new pair (spring
ears are now in fashion).
b) to the extent that Gavrilov and Zayas sound
similar, what they share is largely a lack
of interpretation.
This is not helpful, Koren.
What is wrong with Zayas is her lack of distinctive personality. It is
all so incredibly "nice". I always want to take her by the neck and
shake her, just to see if there is a breathing human being involved in
the playing. Sort of PC carried to undreamed of heights. Or depths.
Whatever. Nausea sets in after about two or three etudes.
Sounds like she might be just the perfect thing for those who couldn't
deal with the Pletnev recital.

wr
JohnGavin
2006-05-06 01:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Dan Koren
Post by MIFrost
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Dan Koren
Post by tomdeacon
Post by MIFrost
Post by Citizen
Any suggestions?
Try Zayas.
And to go with them, how about two dozen Krispy Kreme donuts?
No, Deacon.
Meringues and profiteroles.
FAR too upscale.
All right, all right. I knew I'd get this reply. :-)
I have two recordings of the Etudes: Gavrilov and Zayas and, listening to
selections from both recordings in my car during my morning drive
yesterday, I find only slight differences in style. Zayas often sounds
"softer" and less percussive but at other times displays a wider dynamic
range. Nevertheless, the differences are, to my ears, minor. So what do
you find so extraordinarily lacking in her Etudes?
a) if your ears can only hear "minor" differences
between Gavrilov and Zayas, they are probably
worn out and it's time for a new pair (spring
ears are now in fashion).
b) to the extent that Gavrilov and Zayas sound
similar, what they share is largely a lack
of interpretation.
This is not helpful, Koren.
What is wrong with Zayas is her lack of distinctive personality. It is
all so incredibly "nice". I always want to take her by the neck and
shake her, just to see if there is a breathing human being involved in
the playing. Sort of PC carried to undreamed of heights. Or depths.
Whatever. Nausea sets in after about two or three etudes.
Sounds like she might be just the perfect thing for those who couldn't
deal with the Pletnev recital.
wr
Nah - there's infinite possibilities of variety between the faceless
approach and the egotistical contortionist approach. In fact it's the
space where most great performances take place :)

Brendan R. Wehrung
2006-05-05 02:13:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by MIFrost
Post by Citizen
Any suggestions?
Try Zayas.
And to go with them, how about two dozen Krispy Kreme donuts?
TD
I thought Tim Hortons's was the gold standard in Canada.

Brendan
Vaneyes
2006-05-05 04:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Post by tomdeacon
Post by MIFrost
Post by Citizen
Any suggestions?
Try Zayas.
And to go with them, how about two dozen Krispy Kreme donuts?
TD
I thought Tim Hortons's was the gold standard in Canada.
Hockey & Tim Horton's. Nothing else matters.

Regards
tomdeacon
2006-05-05 10:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brendan R. Wehrung
Post by tomdeacon
Post by MIFrost
Post by Citizen
Any suggestions?
Try Zayas.
And to go with them, how about two dozen Krispy Kreme donuts?
TD
I thought Tim Hortons's was the gold standard in Canada.
Not sweet enough.

To accompany Zayas you need the ultimate sweet donut, one absolutely
dripping in useless calories.

TD
MrT
2006-05-05 10:28:05 UTC
Permalink
I would go with both Ashkenazys and the Ginzburg. The old Arrau is good
if you like Arrau in Chopin (I like his nocturnes, but the Etudes don't
strike me so positively: a bit flaccid).

Best,

MrT
John Wiser
2006-05-04 03:03:09 UTC
Permalink
"Citizen" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
..
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
A cheap shot from a pig-ignorant, vulgar reviewer.
Take note that such quotations reflect ill
upon your own taste and judgement.

cordially
--
John Wiser
***@frontiernet.net
***@frontiernet.net
Citizen
2006-05-04 04:05:53 UTC
Permalink
The critic you find guilty of the cheap shot is Jed Distler at Classics
Today. BTW, he was quoting someone else, and not referring to the
Chopin etudes.

In this case, however, I believe the comment holds true. Gavrilov has
an awesome technique, but, like Cziffra, does not play the calmer
etudes in a way that I find satisfying.

I am not implying that Gavrilov is always like this; for example, his
disc of some Rachmaninoff selections is in fact very focused takes a
calm approach in some surprising instances, e.g. the Op. 39 No. 5
Etude-tableau. Though I don't agree with his interpretations in some
selections on this disc, I find that, in this case, he is a "BMW with a
driver," that is, a pianist whose brilliant technique serves musical
ends.
a***@aol.com
2006-05-04 08:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
The critic you find guilty of the cheap shot is Jed Distler at Classics
Today. BTW, he was quoting someone else, and not referring to the
Chopin etudes.
In this case, however, I believe the comment holds true. Gavrilov has
an awesome technique, but, like Cziffra, does not play the calmer
etudes in a way that I find satisfying.
I am not implying that Gavrilov is always like this; for example, his
disc of some Rachmaninoff selections is in fact very focused takes a
calm approach in some surprising instances, e.g. the Op. 39 No. 5
Etude-tableau. Though I don't agree with his interpretations in some
selections on this disc, I find that, in this case, he is a "BMW with a
driver," that is, a pianist whose brilliant technique serves musical
ends.
For sheer musicality as well as the necessary "chops" Augustin Anievas
and Joyce Hatto (75th anniversary edition) seem to do rather well in
both respects.

There are hundreds of talented people who can play them well, I am
sure, but those two artists (in my opinion) seek to remind you that it
is music as well.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Josep Vilanova
2006-05-04 20:57:44 UTC
Permalink
or sheer musicality as well as the necessary "chops" Augustin Anievas
Post by a***@aol.com
and Joyce Hatto (75th anniversary edition) seem to do rather well in
both respects.
There are hundreds of talented people who can play them well, I am
sure, but those two artists (in my opinion) seek to remind you that it
is music as well.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Another pianist that reminds you that there is music there as well is
Tamas Vasary. I imprinted on his performances and are still the ones I
listen to more often.


j
Josep Vilanova
2006-05-04 21:24:22 UTC
Permalink
or sheer musicality as well as the necessary "chops" Augustin Anievas
Post by a***@aol.com
and Joyce Hatto (75th anniversary edition) seem to do rather well in
both respects.
There are hundreds of talented people who can play them well, I am
sure, but those two artists (in my opinion) seek to remind you that it
is music as well.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Another pianists that reminds you that there is music there as well is
Tamas Vasary. I imprinted on his performances and are still the ones I
listen to more often.


j
Andy Evans
2006-05-04 09:50:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
A cheap shot from a pig-ignorant, vulgar reviewer. Take note that such
quotations reflect ill upon your own taste and judgement. >>

But reflect rather well on a sharp sense of humour............... great
image
tomdeacon
2006-05-04 11:10:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Evans
Post by Citizen
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
A cheap shot from a pig-ignorant, vulgar reviewer. Take note that such
quotations reflect ill upon your own taste and judgement. >>
But reflect rather well on a sharp sense of humour............... great
image
Except that BMWs tend to do the driving for you, so slick are their
transmissions, so taught is their suspension, so smooth and yet
endlessly powerful their engines.

In fact, the seats aren't half bad either.

Actually, the image is perfect.

And Gavrilov is one hell of a pianist!

TD
benjo maso
2006-05-04 12:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Andy Evans
Post by Citizen
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
A cheap shot from a pig-ignorant, vulgar reviewer. Take note that such
quotations reflect ill upon your own taste and judgement. >>
But reflect rather well on a sharp sense of humour............... great
image
Except that BMWs tend to do the driving for you, so slick are their
transmissions, so taught is their suspension, so smooth and yet
endlessly powerful their engines.
In fact, the seats aren't half bad either.
Actually, the image is perfect.
And Gavrilov is one hell of a pianist!
But I have the impression his best years were when he was under twenty-one
.... I have a life recording of Chopin's op.10 when he was 19 or 20 (I
recorded it from the German radio) and it was awesome. I heard him play it
several years later (the time he recorded it for EMI) and it seemed almost a
caricature of his earlier performance. The same goes for Gaspard de la Nuit.

Benjo Maso
Vaneyes
2006-05-04 18:41:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Andy Evans
Post by Citizen
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
A cheap shot from a pig-ignorant, vulgar reviewer. Take note that such
quotations reflect ill upon your own taste and judgement. >>
But reflect rather well on a sharp sense of humour............... great
image
Except that BMWs tend to do the driving for you, so slick are their
transmissions, so taught is their suspension, so smooth and yet
endlessly powerful their engines.
In fact, the seats aren't half bad either.
Actually, the image is perfect.
And Gavrilov is one hell of a pianist!
Are you at another dealership, now?

Regards
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-05-04 19:33:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vaneyes
Are you at another dealership, now?
So does that mean he's a used car salesman now?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
JohnGavin
2006-05-05 00:34:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vaneyes
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Andy Evans
Post by Citizen
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
A cheap shot from a pig-ignorant, vulgar reviewer. Take note that such
quotations reflect ill upon your own taste and judgement. >>
But reflect rather well on a sharp sense of humour............... great
image
Except that BMWs tend to do the driving for you, so slick are their
transmissions, so taught is their suspension, so smooth and yet
endlessly powerful their engines.
In fact, the seats aren't half bad either.
Actually, the image is perfect.
And Gavrilov is one hell of a pianist!
Are you at another dealership, now?
Regards
Has there ever been any pianist who plays all 24 (or 27) Etudes nearly
as well as Josef Lhevinne plays op 25 #6? If you answer the question
"no" , as I do, you come to the conclusion that no one pianist can play
them all superlatively in a single lifetime.
Citizen
2006-05-05 01:09:47 UTC
Permalink
"Has there ever been any pianist who plays all 24 (or 27) Etudes nearly
as well as Josef Lhevinne plays op 25 #6?"

However, Lhevinne's Winter Wind (Op. 25 No. 11) is not so good.
fha.jonkers
2006-05-05 09:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
"Has there ever been any pianist who plays all 24 (or 27) Etudes nearly
as well as Josef Lhevinne plays op 25 #6?"
However, Lhevinne's Winter Wind (Op. 25 No. 11) is not so good.
Why not?

I like the three op.25s Lhevinne recorded far better than the Sokolov
everyone is cheering about.

Has anyone mentioned the complete set by Francois?
Tony Overington
2006-05-05 10:28:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by fha.jonkers
Post by Citizen
"Has there ever been any pianist who plays all 24 (or 27) Etudes nearly
as well as Josef Lhevinne plays op 25 #6?"
However, Lhevinne's Winter Wind (Op. 25 No. 11) is not so good.
Why not?
I like the three op.25s Lhevinne recorded far better than the Sokolov
everyone is cheering about.
Is this the Dutch equivalent of Shock & Awe? :)

I agree about Lhevinne, but "far better" than Sokolov doesn't really
apply for me. I need both.
Citizen
2006-05-05 13:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Why do I not like Lhevinne's winter wind? Because his right hand,
which should be prominent, is barely audible. I don't think this is a
result of recording deficiencies of the time, however, because his
other two Op. 25 etudes do not display the same problem. I do like
those, btw.

Based on all the recommendations, if I could get the Sokolov for under
$20 somewhere, I would buy it immediately.
Dan Koren
2006-05-05 18:24:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
Why do I not like Lhevinne's winter wind? Because his
right hand, which should be prominent, is barely audible.
Hear, hear!

Do you read the score upside down?




dk
tomdeacon
2006-05-05 01:20:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Has there ever been any pianist who plays all 24 (or 27) Etudes nearly
as well as Josef Lhevinne plays op 25 #6? If you answer the question
"no" , as I do, you come to the conclusion that no one pianist can play
them all superlatively in a single lifetime.
Clearly you have not heard Madame Hatto.

TD
Dan Koren
2006-05-04 21:11:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Andy Evans
Post by Citizen
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
A cheap shot from a pig-ignorant, vulgar reviewer. Take note that such
quotations reflect ill upon your own taste and judgement. >>
But reflect rather well on a sharp sense of humour............... great
image
Except that BMWs tend to do the driving for you, so slick are their
transmissions, so taught is their suspension, so smooth and yet
endlessly powerful their engines.
In fact, the seats aren't half bad either.
Actually, the image is perfect.
And Gavrilov is one hell of a pianist!
Highly expensive maintenance.

And when they fail, they do
it in catastrophic fashion.



dk
tomdeacon
2006-05-05 01:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Andy Evans
Post by Citizen
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
A cheap shot from a pig-ignorant, vulgar reviewer. Take note that such
quotations reflect ill upon your own taste and judgement. >>
But reflect rather well on a sharp sense of humour............... great
image
Except that BMWs tend to do the driving for you, so slick are their
transmissions, so taught is their suspension, so smooth and yet
endlessly powerful their engines.
In fact, the seats aren't half bad either.
Actually, the image is perfect.
And Gavrilov is one hell of a pianist!
Highly expensive maintenance.
And when they fail, they do
it in catastrophic fashion.
If you left mine for a week or two by the side of the road, when you
went back to it the car wouldn't start.

BMW tried five times to correct the problem - a short in the wiring -
and never found it.

Wouldn't touch another one.

But fabulous driving machines. And that transmission!!!

TD
Vaneyes
2006-05-05 01:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Dan Koren
Highly expensive maintenance.
And when they fail, they do
it in catastrophic fashion.
If you left mine for a week or two by the side of the road, when you
went back to it the car wouldn't start.
Who you kiddin'? It wouldn't be there. Fairly recent stats show
Canada's #9 in the world for auto theft...26% higher than USA.

Regards
Dan Koren
2006-05-05 05:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vaneyes
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Dan Koren
Highly expensive maintenance.
And when they fail, they do
it in catastrophic fashion.
If you left mine for a week or two by the side of the road, when you
went back to it the car wouldn't start.
Who you kiddin'? It wouldn't be there. Fairly recent stats show
Canada's #9 in the world for auto theft...26% higher than USA.
It is hard to steal a car that doesn't start ;-)



dk
Vaneyes
2006-05-05 18:38:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Vaneyes
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Dan Koren
Highly expensive maintenance.
And when they fail, they do
it in catastrophic fashion.
If you left mine for a week or two by the side of the road, when you
went back to it the car wouldn't start.
Who you kiddin'? It wouldn't be there. Fairly recent stats show
Canada's #9 in the world for auto theft...26% higher than USA.
It is hard to steal a car that doesn't start ;-)
Whether kids or chop-shoppers, they'd find a way to take TD's roadkill.

Regards
tomdeacon
2006-05-05 10:35:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vaneyes
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Dan Koren
Highly expensive maintenance.
And when they fail, they do
it in catastrophic fashion.
If you left mine for a week or two by the side of the road, when you
went back to it the car wouldn't start.
Who you kiddin'? It wouldn't be there. Fairly recent stats show
Canada's #9 in the world for auto theft...26% higher than USA.
I had my BMW in Amsterdam.

TD
Steven de Mena
2006-05-05 04:43:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Dan Koren
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Andy Evans
Post by Citizen
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
A cheap shot from a pig-ignorant, vulgar reviewer. Take note that such
quotations reflect ill upon your own taste and judgement. >>
But reflect rather well on a sharp sense of humour............... great
image
Except that BMWs tend to do the driving for you, so slick are their
transmissions, so taught is their suspension, so smooth and yet
endlessly powerful their engines.
In fact, the seats aren't half bad either.
Actually, the image is perfect.
And Gavrilov is one hell of a pianist!
Highly expensive maintenance.
And when they fail, they do
it in catastrophic fashion.
If you left mine for a week or two by the side of the road, when you
went back to it the car wouldn't start.
BMW tried five times to correct the problem - a short in the wiring -
and never found it.
Wouldn't touch another one.
But fabulous driving machines. And that transmission!!!
TD
I've heard terrible stories the past 5 years or so from Mercedes owners I
know, one concerning severe electrical problems with a brand new car. I
have had nothing but good luck with two BMWs. Knock on wood.

I am sure there are lemons in all brands.

Steve
John Thomas
2006-05-04 04:33:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
Pollini (makes them sound almost too easy, but a bit colorless)
Cziffra (very intense, but not so good in the calmer etudes)
Cortot (very interesting, but way too many technical imperfections)
Cherkassky (I haven't listened in a while, but IIRC they aren't so
good)
Perahia (rather bland)
Ashkenazy (both technically and musically agreeable)
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
I still haven't found an utterly satisfying set, however.
Any suggestions?
Agustin Anievas for both sets on a Philips Duo; not quite O/P but hard
to find. Ashkenazy's first set on Melodiya is as impeccable technically
as his second but not as engaging as A A's. You might like
Malcuzynski's on EMI but it's definitely O/P.
--
Regards,
John Thomas
tomdeacon
2006-05-04 11:04:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Thomas
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
Pollini (makes them sound almost too easy, but a bit colorless)
Cziffra (very intense, but not so good in the calmer etudes)
Cortot (very interesting, but way too many technical imperfections)
Cherkassky (I haven't listened in a while, but IIRC they aren't so
good)
Perahia (rather bland)
Ashkenazy (both technically and musically agreeable)
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
I still haven't found an utterly satisfying set, however.
Any suggestions?
Agustin Anievas for both sets on a Philips Duo; not quite O/P but hard
to find.
I'll bet it is.

Anievas never recorded a single note for Philips. Alas.

But you may have better luck if you try EMI.

TD
c***@gmail.com
2006-05-04 07:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Pollini ***
Cziffra ***(*)
Perahia *(*)
Ashkenazy ****
Sokolov (op.25) ****
Gavrilov **(*)
Berezovsky ***(*)
Matthew B. Tepper
2006-05-04 14:23:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@gmail.com
Pollini ***
Cziffra ***(*)
Perahia *(*)
Ashkenazy ****
Sokolov (op.25) ****
Gavrilov **(*)
Berezovsky ***(*)
Any opinions of Freire?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
c***@gmail.com
2006-05-04 14:56:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by c***@gmail.com
Pollini ***
Cziffra ***(*)
Perahia *(*)
Ashkenazy ****
Sokolov (op.25) ****
Gavrilov **(*)
Berezovsky ***(*)
Any opinions of Freire?
Still unknown...
c***@gmail.com
2006-05-04 07:33:33 UTC
Permalink
Pollini ***
Cziffra ***(*)
Perahia *(*)
Ashkenazy ****
Sokolov (op.25) ****
Gavrilov **(*)
Berezovsky ***(*)
Tony Overington
2006-05-04 08:12:48 UTC
Permalink
For complete sets, Cziffra and Ashkenazy (Melodya). For op. 25,
Ginzburg and Sokolov.
Martin Altschwager
2006-05-04 16:58:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Overington
For complete sets, Cziffra and Ashkenazy (Melodya). For op. 25,
Ginzburg and Sokolov.
Ginsburg's Op. 25 has been mentioned quite a lot here recently. Could you
please tell me the label which released this recording and if possible an
online store that carries it?

Thanks!

M.A.
Tony Overington
2006-05-04 18:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Altschwager
Post by Tony Overington
For complete sets, Cziffra and Ashkenazy (Melodya). For op. 25,
Ginzburg and Sokolov.
Ginsburg's Op. 25 has been mentioned quite a lot here recently. Could you
please tell me the label which released this recording and if possible an
online store that carries it?
Thanks!
M.A.
Hi Martin, it's on Arlecchino and is out-of-print. I'm not sure where
to get it right now, but if I see it I will tell you.
Alan Briker
2006-05-04 17:19:37 UTC
Permalink
Anyone know where I can get a copy of the Ginzburg Chopin Etudes?

On 5/4/06 4:12 AM, in article
Post by Tony Overington
For complete sets, Cziffra and Ashkenazy (Melodya). For op. 25,
Ginzburg and Sokolov.
MELMOTH
2006-05-04 08:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Ce cher mammifère du nom de Citizen nous susurrait, le jeudi
04/05/2006, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales quand
même, et dans le message
Post by Citizen
Any suggestions?
Berezovsky
Arrau
François
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin; et celui qui
accroît sa science, accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1]
Melmoth - souffrant
RX-01
2006-05-04 08:56:24 UTC
Permalink
My favorite set is the Perahia. I'm surprised that you find it bland --
I like it for exactly the opposite reason. I find his playing very
poetic and imaginative (I've never heard the Revolutionary Etude played
like such a song of despair before!)

I also agree about the Pollini being a bit colorless, but I find it the
most impressive set.

I would strongly recommend Luis Lortie. It's a Penguin Rosette. His
playing is impressive (I've also heard him playing the Etudes live).
Still my top two choices would be Perahia and Pollini though.


RX-01
tomdeacon
2006-05-04 11:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by RX-01
My favorite set is the Perahia.
Is your copy the one with a bar of music missing, or did you get it
"complete"?

Shit happens when you piece together recordings from bits and pieces.

Far better to select a pianist who can actually PLAY the pieces from
start to finish without retakes.

TD
Tony Overington
2006-05-04 12:51:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by RX-01
My favorite set is the Perahia.
Is your copy the one with a bar of music missing, or did you get it
"complete"?
Shit happens when you piece together recordings from bits and pieces.
Far better to select a pianist who can actually PLAY the pieces from
start to finish without retakes.
TD
Bravo, Tom. Perhaps Perahia can be sent out to the pasture. Do you know
of an area near you which could hold him?
tomdeacon
2006-05-04 13:48:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Overington
Post by tomdeacon
Post by RX-01
My favorite set is the Perahia.
Is your copy the one with a bar of music missing, or did you get it
"complete"?
Shit happens when you piece together recordings from bits and pieces.
Far better to select a pianist who can actually PLAY the pieces from
start to finish without retakes.
TD
Bravo, Tom. Perhaps Perahia can be sent out to the pasture. Do you know
of an area near you which could hold him?
No need.

He has found his pasture. England.

TD
Tony Overington
2006-05-04 13:52:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Tony Overington
Post by tomdeacon
Post by RX-01
My favorite set is the Perahia.
Is your copy the one with a bar of music missing, or did you get it
"complete"?
Shit happens when you piece together recordings from bits and pieces.
Far better to select a pianist who can actually PLAY the pieces from
start to finish without retakes.
TD
Bravo, Tom. Perhaps Perahia can be sent out to the pasture. Do you know
of an area near you which could hold him?
No need.
He has found his pasture. England.
TD
Touche. And I am in complete agreement with you.
Dan Koren
2006-05-04 21:13:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by RX-01
My favorite set is the Perahia.
Is your copy the one with a bar of music missing, or did you get it
"complete"?
Shit happens when you piece together recordings from bits and pieces.
Far better to select a pianist who can actually PLAY the pieces from
start to finish without retakes.
Oops!


The Deacon has agreed with me again.

The end of the world must be near.



dk
Henry Maurer
2006-05-04 11:18:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by RX-01
I would strongly recommend Luis Lortie. It's a Penguin Rosette. His
playing is impressive (I've also heard him playing the Etudes live).
Still my top two choices would be Perahia and Pollini though.
I've never heard LOUIS Lortie's recording of the Etudes, but I did hear
him play the complete set in a recital and, on that basis, would
recommend his recorded version.
MELMOTH
2006-05-05 07:03:18 UTC
Permalink
Ce cher mammifère du nom de RX-01 nous susurrait, le jeudi 04/05/2006,
dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu céruménisées quand même,
et dans le message
Post by RX-01
My favorite set is the Perahia. I'm surprised that you find it bland --
Oh...
#90% Perahia records aren't they bland ?!...
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin; et celui qui
accroît sa science, accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1]
Melmoth - souffrant
Wiener Sänger
2006-05-04 09:26:12 UTC
Permalink
I find Cziffra's op. 10 no. 3 most satisfying and poetic.

R
Wal
2006-05-04 11:07:44 UTC
Permalink
Complete - either of the Ashkenazy's. A blending of the two would be
even better. Nothing surpasses either of these complete sets.

Op 10 - I do like Gavrilov here
Op 25 - Ginzburg or Cziffra. (Haven't heard the Sokolov)
Post by John Thomas
Agustin Anievas for both sets on a Philips Duo; not quite O/P but hard
to find.<<

Surely you mean EMI or did he record a second set? He is very good on
the EMI disc but the murky sound does detract from the technical side
of the performance. If it is the EMI it's readily available from Amazon
and includes his great set of waltzes plus the Ballades
Post by John Thomas
You might like Malcuzynski's on EMI but it's definitely O/P. <<
I've never heard of a complete set by Malcuzyinski.
tomdeacon
2006-05-04 11:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wal
Complete - either of the Ashkenazy's. A blending of the two would be
even better. Nothing surpasses either of these complete sets.
Op 10 - I do like Gavrilov here
Op 25 - Ginzburg or Cziffra. (Haven't heard the Sokolov)
Post by John Thomas
Agustin Anievas for both sets on a Philips Duo; not quite O/P but hard
to find.<<
Surely you mean EMI or did he record a second set? He is very good on
the EMI disc but the murky sound does detract from the technical side
of the performance. If it is the EMI it's readily available from Amazon
and includes his great set of waltzes plus the Ballades
Post by John Thomas
You might like Malcuzynski's on EMI but it's definitely O/P. <<
I've never heard of a complete set by Malcuzyinski.
There has never even been an incomplete set.

Malcuszinsky's technique was highly unreliable, at least based upon my
own personal experiences of him in the 1950s.

TD
Dan Koren
2006-05-04 21:14:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Wal
Complete - either of the Ashkenazy's. A blending of the two would be
even better. Nothing surpasses either of these complete sets.
Op 10 - I do like Gavrilov here
Op 25 - Ginzburg or Cziffra. (Haven't heard the Sokolov)
Post by John Thomas
Agustin Anievas for both sets on a Philips Duo; not quite O/P but hard
to find.<<
Surely you mean EMI or did he record a second set? He is very good on
the EMI disc but the murky sound does detract from the technical side
of the performance. If it is the EMI it's readily available from Amazon
and includes his great set of waltzes plus the Ballades
Post by John Thomas
You might like Malcuzynski's on EMI but it's definitely O/P. <<
I've never heard of a complete set by Malcuzyinski.
There has never even been an incomplete set.
Malcuszinsky's technique was highly unreliable, at
least based upon my own personal experiences of him
in the 1950s.
You weren't happy with the way he fingered you?



dk
John Thomas
2006-05-04 13:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wal
Post by John Thomas
Agustin Anievas for both sets on a Philips Duo; not quite O/P but hard
to find.<<
Surely you mean EMI or did he record a second set? He is very good on
the EMI disc but the murky sound does detract from the technical side
of the performance. If it is the EMI it's readily available from Amazon
and includes his great set of waltzes plus the Ballades
Of course you're right; I can't keep all these double set labels
straight in my head and I didn't check my own copy. When I first started
searching for this set I couldn't find it anywhere but Musica Bona; good
to know it's more available now.
--
Regards,
John Thomas
w***@hotmail.com
2006-05-04 12:11:07 UTC
Permalink
I haven't read the name of Nelson Freire yet, who did both cycles on
Decca (not on the same CD btw). Very subtle, almost understated
playing. Difficult to say why they are so good. I guess that's what
makes him a great artist...

W.
benjo maso
2006-05-04 12:45:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
Pollini (makes them sound almost too easy, but a bit colorless)
Cziffra (very intense, but not so good in the calmer etudes)
Cortot (very interesting, but way too many technical imperfections)
Cherkassky (I haven't listened in a while, but IIRC they aren't so
good)
Perahia (rather bland)
Ashkenazy (both technically and musically agreeable)
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
I still haven't found an utterly satisfying set, however.
I know all the sets you mention, but my favorite is Dino Ciani, as I already
said a few month. But I can't remember anybody agreed with me :-)

Benjo Maso
k***@yahoo.com
2006-05-04 12:47:43 UTC
Permalink
Sokolov for op.25 (coupled with Piano Sonata no.2 op.35). If you do get
this please let us know what you think.
David Fox
2006-05-04 15:29:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
Gavrilov - Chopin's Etudes ARE in fact Etudes, and Gavrilov presents
this aspect of the music as well as anybody. Of course, there is music
in these pieces too, but let's be honest - in some of the selections
there is far more musical content than others. So, sheer bravura
display is a justifiable approach in this music where it would not be
so in the Ballades. It's not the only approach, but that's why we are
blessed with so many different recordings to choose from. I must admit
though, his version of the Winter Wind is so ridiculously fast that it
gives me the giggles every time I hear it. As a bonus, this recording
is perennially available at super-budget prices with various couplings.


Cortot - This is near the other end of the stylistic spectrum, though I
don't think it's fair to dismiss Cortot as being without technique just
because he hit many wrong notes. His technique involved taking big
risks. Listen for example to Op. 10 No 1 - arguably the most difficult
of all of the Etudes though it doesn't sound it. Cortot really makes
it swing through those treacherous thumb crossings in the right hand in
a way that makes most other pianists sound downright mechanical. The
results are thrilling when they work, and the occasional wrong notes
are a small price to pay.

Sokolov (Op. 25) - Achieves the best balance of yin and yang, and they
were recorded LIVE one right after the other. Yikes.

Bolet recorded several which are absolutely gorgeous, including my
favorite versions of Op. 25 No 1 and Op. 25 No 11.

DF
j***@aol.com
2006-05-04 17:47:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Fox
Cortot - This is near the other end of the stylistic spectrum, though I
don't think it's fair to dismiss Cortot as being without technique just
because he hit many wrong notes. His technique involved taking big
risks. Listen for example to Op. 10 No 1 - arguably the most difficult
of all of the Etudes though it doesn't sound it. Cortot really makes
it swing through those treacherous thumb crossings in the right hand in
a way that makes most other pianists sound downright mechanical. The
results are thrilling when they work, and the occasional wrong notes
are a small price to pay.
Finally, some sensible advice. The original poster obviously needs to
try Cortot, having already explored so many pianists who have the chops
but not always much else (and I do like the Pollini and Cziffra
nonetheless).

Ditto for Ciani.

--Jeff
makropulos
2006-05-04 18:18:46 UTC
Permalink
It slightly depends which Cortot we're talking about - the 1933/4
sets op Op.10 and Op.25 he made in London, or the 1942 Paris remakes
(all of them to be found on the French EMI "Chopin: Oeuvres pour piano
- Cortot" set). For me, the earlier ones are preferable from a
technical point of view.

I'm not usually a big Pollini fan, but his Etudes certainly thrill me.
Citizen
2006-05-04 18:50:23 UTC
Permalink
"The original poster obviously needs to
try Cortot"

I do have the Cortot, and as I wrote earlier, I found the set very
interesting. He takes liberties with the written music that would be
considered sacrilegious today, but is all the more interesting for
doing so. I also didn't say he was without technique; I merely pointed
out that the recording had some "technical imperfections." OTOH, he
does seem to be without technique in the Ravel LH Concerto.

BTW, I have his etudes on the Phillips Great Pianists set, in case
there is more than one version, as some other poster noted.
makropulos
2006-05-04 19:55:23 UTC
Permalink
"there is more than one version, as some other poster noted."

Some other poster writes: Yes there are, and both have their merits. I
don't know which is on the Philips set, but presumably it gives
recording dates somewhere. The 1942 set has, as far as I remember,
slightly more problematic techical moments but a beautiful piano sound.
As I said, you can get both in the same set if you want to compare.

I have to agree about the Ravel LH recording - really not one of AC's
better days.
Steve Emerson
2006-05-04 20:51:03 UTC
Permalink
"there is more than one [Cortot] version, as some other poster noted."
Some other poster writes: Yes there are, and both have their merits. I
don't know which is on the Philips set, but presumably it gives
recording dates somewhere.
It's the '30s set.
The 1942 set has, as far as I remember,
slightly more problematic technical moments but a beautiful piano sound.
As I said, you can get both in the same set if you want to compare.
He does a lovely and preferable job with a few of them in the 1942 set,
but I don't think the OP needs to rush out and supplement the earlier
one with it.

SE.
Tony Overington
2006-05-04 18:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Fox
Bolet recorded several which are absolutely gorgeous, including my
favorite versions of Op. 25 No 1 and Op. 25 No 11.
DF
David, where are these available?
David Fox
2006-05-04 18:48:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Overington
Post by David Fox
Bolet recorded several which are absolutely gorgeous, including my
favorite versions of Op. 25 No 1 and Op. 25 No 11.
DF
David, where are these available?
I have them on a Decca Bolet CD of encores, circa 1987. I doubt it's
still in print, but I've seen it pop up in the used bins. I'll post
full details when I get home tonight.

DF
Alan Cooper
2006-05-04 20:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Fox
Post by Tony Overington
Post by David Fox
Bolet recorded several which are absolutely gorgeous, including my
favorite versions of Op. 25 No 1 and Op. 25 No 11.
DF
David, where are these available?
I have them on a Decca Bolet CD of encores, circa 1987. I doubt it's
still in print, but I've seen it pop up in the used bins. I'll post
full details when I get home tonight.
London 417 361-2, and David hit the date exactly. The Chopin set
includes op. 25/1, 2 and 11, along with two Waltzes and two Nocturnes.
The recital is full of beautiful and elegant pianism, esp. in the
Chopin selections and several Godowsky pieces. Perhaps my favorite
Bolet record after the great GPOC recital.

AC
Citizen
2006-05-04 18:54:53 UTC
Permalink
Mr. Fox:
Where can I get the Sokolov and the Bolet?

Also, though I don't like his set as a whole, as an amateur pianist who
has attempted the Winter Wind, Gavrilov's aforementioned lightning-fast
speed in this etude sent shivers down my spine the first time I heard
it.
David Fox
2006-05-04 19:09:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
Where can I get the Sokolov and the Bolet?
See my post above for the Bolet. The Sokolov is available in a number
of incarnations on Op. 111 (or Naive), usually coupled with the Chopin
Op. 35 Sonata. I see it listed currently for $27 on Amazon
Marketplace, but it can be had cheaper if you keep your eyes out. I
just "Froogle'd" it and found that JR Music world is selling a 5CD box
of many of Sokolov's other recordings along with the Op. 25 for $32.99.
Trust me, once you hear one Sokolov recording, you'll want them all.
Unfortunately there aren't that many official releases. Many of his
concerts are recorded, but Sokolov hasn't approved a new recording for
release in over 10 years. Many of these recordings circulate
privately.

DF
Matt
2006-05-04 22:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Fox
Post by Citizen
Where can I get the Sokolov and the Bolet?
See my post above for the Bolet. The Sokolov is available in a number
of incarnations on Op. 111 (or Naive), usually coupled with the Chopin
Op. 35 Sonata. I see it listed currently for $27 on Amazon
Marketplace, but it can be had cheaper if you keep your eyes out.
The Sonata recording is my favorite "modern" recording of this work. The
Op. 25 etudes have almost spoiled me for any other recording. Usually I get
impatient and end up exchanging whatever version I'm listening to with this
CD after one or two etudes. I also believe this CD is the crown jewell of
the box set (although all the CDs are very good to excellent). The other
Sokolov box contains his Art of the Fugue, which I would consider the other
absolutely essential Sokolov recording (although all are essential to me,
except perhaps his Hammerklavier which is extremely OOP anyway).
Post by David Fox
I
just "Froogle'd" it and found that JR Music world is selling a 5CD box
of many of Sokolov's other recordings along with the Op. 25 for $32.99.
Trust me, once you hear one Sokolov recording, you'll want them all.
Regards,
Matt
Dan Koren
2006-05-04 21:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
Where can I get the Sokolov and the Bolet?
Also, though I don't like his set as a whole, as an amateur pianist who
has attempted the Winter Wind, Gavrilov's aforementioned lightning-fast
speed in this etude sent shivers down my spine the first time I heard
it.
If you really like shivers down your spine
you should listen to Gavrilov's Scriabin
op. 42/5 -- preferably with the score in
hand.



dk
Peter Lemken
2006-05-05 05:01:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Citizen
Where can I get the Sokolov and the Bolet?
Also, though I don't like his set as a whole, as an amateur pianist who
has attempted the Winter Wind, Gavrilov's aforementioned lightning-fast
speed in this etude sent shivers down my spine the first time I heard
it.
If you really like shivers down your spine
you should listen to Gavrilov's Scriabin
op. 42/5 -- preferably with the score in
hand.
And when you are done, you should listen to that same etude with Hoorwitz
from 1952 and Richter from 1972 and trash the Gavrilov.

Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
Paul Lincke ist dem Zille sein Milhaud.

(Harry Rowohlt)
Dan Koren
2006-05-05 05:54:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Lemken
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Citizen
Where can I get the Sokolov and the Bolet?
Also, though I don't like his set as a whole, as an amateur pianist who
has attempted the Winter Wind, Gavrilov's aforementioned lightning-fast
speed in this etude sent shivers down my spine the first time I heard
it.
If you really like shivers down your spine
you should listen to Gavrilov's Scriabin
op. 42/5 -- preferably with the score in
hand.
And when you are done, you should listen to
that same etude with Hoorwitz from 1952 and
Richter from 1972 and trash the Gavrilov.
You are referring to interpretation, while I
was only speaking about speed. Please check
again ;-)

As to interpretation, I do not like Gavrilov
at all, and have mixed feelings about Volodya.

To my ears, no one comes close to Sofronitsky
in op. 42/5, even though his technique is no
match for the others you mentioned.


Cheers.



dk
tomdeacon
2006-05-05 10:40:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Peter Lemken
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Citizen
Where can I get the Sokolov and the Bolet?
Also, though I don't like his set as a whole, as an amateur pianist who
has attempted the Winter Wind, Gavrilov's aforementioned lightning-fast
speed in this etude sent shivers down my spine the first time I heard
it.
If you really like shivers down your spine
you should listen to Gavrilov's Scriabin
op. 42/5 -- preferably with the score in
hand.
And when you are done, you should listen to
that same etude with Hoorwitz from 1952 and
Richter from 1972 and trash the Gavrilov.
You are referring to interpretation, while I
was only speaking about speed. Please check
again ;-)
As to interpretation, I do not like Gavrilov
at all, and have mixed feelings about Volodya.
To my ears, no one comes close to Sofronitsky
in op. 42/5, even though his technique is no
match for the others you mentioned.
The real problem with the Horowitz is the pianist's inability to
sustain the mood of the piece. He breaks it in the middle and goes all
mushy. Completely inappropriate. Richter, the better musician, does
not. I haven't heard the Gavrilov in a while, but I shall try to do so
soon. Even Richter found his fingers incredible, of course.

TD
Dan Koren
2006-05-05 18:26:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Peter Lemken
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Citizen
Where can I get the Sokolov and the Bolet?
Also, though I don't like his set as a whole, as an amateur pianist who
has attempted the Winter Wind, Gavrilov's aforementioned
lightning-fast
speed in this etude sent shivers down my spine the first time I heard
it.
If you really like shivers down your spine
you should listen to Gavrilov's Scriabin
op. 42/5 -- preferably with the score in
hand.
And when you are done, you should listen to
that same etude with Hoorwitz from 1952 and
Richter from 1972 and trash the Gavrilov.
You are referring to interpretation, while I
was only speaking about speed. Please check
again ;-)
As to interpretation, I do not like Gavrilov
at all, and have mixed feelings about Volodya.
To my ears, no one comes close to Sofronitsky
in op. 42/5, even though his technique is no
match for the others you mentioned.
The real problem with the Horowitz is the pianist's inability to
sustain the mood of the piece. He breaks it in the middle and goes all
mushy. Completely inappropriate. Richter, the better musician, does
not. I haven't heard the Gavrilov in a while, but I shall try to do so
soon. Even Richter found his fingers incredible, of course.
Please do.

Keep in mind however that I am not recommending
Gavrilov at all for intepretation, only as a
nearly miraculous feat of prestidigitation.



dk
Martin Altschwager
2006-05-05 12:15:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Peter Lemken
Post by Dan Koren
If you really like shivers down your spine
you should listen to Gavrilov's Scriabin
op. 42/5 -- preferably with the score in
hand.
And when you are done, you should listen to
that same etude with Hoorwitz from 1952 and
Richter from 1972 and trash the Gavrilov.
You are referring to interpretation, while I
was only speaking about speed. Please check
again ;-)
Richter (1952): 2'25"
Gavrilov (1984): 2'31"
Richter (1972): 2'39"

This is what you get speed-wise (timings until the last chord).

If you're speaking about sound quality in order to follow the score, of
course Gavrilov is more striking. But he doesn't come close musically to
Richter in 1972.

M.A.
Citizen
2006-05-05 13:30:17 UTC
Permalink
"And when you are done, you should listen to that same etude with
Hoorwitz
from 1952 and Richter from 1972 and trash the Gavrilov."

Richter's Scriabin Etude in Ninths (from the same 1972 Moscow live
recording?) is probably one of the most astounding and spine-tingling
recordings I have ever heard. Horowitz couldn't play this, btw; he
himself said that his hands were too small.
n***@comcast.net
2006-05-04 17:39:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
Pollini (makes them sound almost too easy, but a bit colorless)
Cziffra (very intense, but not so good in the calmer etudes)
Cortot (very interesting, but way too many technical imperfections)
Cherkassky (I haven't listened in a while, but IIRC they aren't so
good)
Perahia (rather bland)
Ashkenazy (both technically and musically agreeable)
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
I still haven't found an utterly satisfying set, however.
Any suggestions?
Lortie (also contains Nouvelle Etudes)

Norm Strong
Tony Overington
2006-05-04 21:00:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
Pollini (makes them sound almost too easy, but a bit colorless)
Cziffra (very intense, but not so good in the calmer etudes)
Cortot (very interesting, but way too many technical imperfections)
Cherkassky (I haven't listened in a while, but IIRC they aren't so
good)
Perahia (rather bland)
Ashkenazy (both technically and musically agreeable)
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
I still haven't found an utterly satisfying set, however.
Any suggestions?
So which of us should be the first to recommend David Saperton? ;)
Phil Caron
2006-05-05 01:16:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Overington
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
So which of us should be the first to recommend David Saperton? ;)
I recognize this as a joke, but don't get it.

- Phil Caron
Tony Overington
2006-05-05 08:30:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Caron
Post by Tony Overington
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
So which of us should be the first to recommend David Saperton? ;)
I recognize this as a joke, but don't get it.
- Phil Caron
That's because the joke is actually in the performance ;)
Phil Caron
2006-05-06 00:17:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Overington
Post by Phil Caron
Post by Tony Overington
So which of us should be the first to recommend David Saperton? ;)
I recognize this as a joke, but don't get it.
That's because the joke is actually in the performance ;)
Now I get it :-) I've kept that VAI release, though, for the spirited
playing of Godowsky etudes it contains. Odd disparity.

- Phil Caron
dg
2006-05-06 00:40:08 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 5 May 2006 20:17:06 -0400, "Phil Caron"
Post by Phil Caron
Post by Tony Overington
Post by Phil Caron
Post by Tony Overington
So which of us should be the first to recommend David Saperton? ;)
I recognize this as a joke, but don't get it.
That's because the joke is actually in the performance ;)
Now I get it :-) I've kept that VAI release, though, for the spirited
playing of Godowsky etudes it contains. Odd disparity.
- Phil Caron
I don't get it-could someone explain what's wrong with
Saperton's etudes? Be specific if you can please. Thanks.
Steve Emerson
2006-05-04 20:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
Pollini (makes them sound almost too easy, but a bit colorless)
Cziffra (very intense, but not so good in the calmer etudes)
And not always great in the others either.
Post by Citizen
Cortot (very interesting, but way too many technical imperfections)
Cherkassky (I haven't listened in a while, but IIRC they aren't so
good)
No -- one of his weaker Chopin efforts.
Post by Citizen
Perahia (rather bland)
Ashkenazy (both technically and musically agreeable)
Whichever Ashkenazy you have, I recommend supplementing it with the
other (Melodiya and London/Decca). Each has merits and they aren't
terribly similar.
Post by Citizen
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
I still haven't found an utterly satisfying set, however.
Any suggestions?
Sokolov in Op 25, as everybody else says. You already have several of
the best Op 10s. Two more good ones are in complete sets with worthy Op
25s --

Timofeyeva on Voice of Lyrics
http://www.voiceoflyrics.com/gr/010/010_e.html

And Berezovsky (should be easy to find).

SE.
Dan Koren
2006-05-04 22:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Emerson
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
Pollini (makes them sound almost too easy, but a bit colorless)
Cziffra (very intense, but not so good in the calmer etudes)
And not always great in the others either.
Post by Citizen
Cortot (very interesting, but way too many technical imperfections)
Cherkassky (I haven't listened in a while, but IIRC they aren't so
good)
No -- one of his weaker Chopin efforts.
Post by Citizen
Perahia (rather bland)
Ashkenazy (both technically and musically agreeable)
Whichever Ashkenazy you have, I recommend supplementing it with the
other (Melodiya and London/Decca). Each has merits and they aren't
terribly similar.
Post by Citizen
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
I still haven't found an utterly satisfying set, however.
Any suggestions?
Sokolov in Op 25, as everybody else says. You already have several of
the best Op 10s. Two more good ones are in complete sets with worthy Op
25s --
Timofeyeva on Voice of Lyrics
http://www.voiceoflyrics.com/gr/010/010_e.html
And Berezovsky (should be easy to find).
Berezovskyikes ?!?



dk
Simon Roberts
2006-05-05 15:30:57 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, Citizen
says...
Post by Citizen
Which Chopin Etudes should I get?
Pollini (makes them sound almost too easy, but a bit colorless)
Cziffra (very intense, but not so good in the calmer etudes)
Cortot (very interesting, but way too many technical imperfections)
Cherkassky (I haven't listened in a while, but IIRC they aren't so
good)
Perahia (rather bland)
Ashkenazy (both technically and musically agreeable)
Gavrilov (as a critic once wrote, a BMW without a driver)
I still haven't found an utterly satisfying set, however.
Any suggestions?
I tend to agree with your observations, except re Gavrilov's, whose set is
probably my favorite (I don't agree with those who say it's a mere display of
mechanical proficiency). If you ever run across Ginzburg's Op. 25 (it used to
be on Arlecchino), grab that.

Simon
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