Discussion:
OT- Chicago Symphony on strike
(too old to reply)
Bozo
2019-03-11 13:07:42 UTC
Permalink
Defined benefit plans are increasingly rare these days,understandable if management's predictions are correct :

https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-musicians-union-0311-story.html

Muti was to conduct this coming Thursday.
Gerard
2019-03-11 17:07:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-musicians-union-0311-story.html
Muti was to conduct this coming Thursday.
""Unfortunately, our website is currently unavailable in most European countries. We are engaged on the issue and committed to looking at options that support our full range of digital offerings to the EU market. We continue to identify technical compliance solutions that will provide all readers with our award-winning journalism.""
HT
2019-03-11 17:42:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-musicians-union-0311-story.html
Muti was to conduct this coming Thursday.
""Unfortunately, our website is currently unavailable in most European countries. We are engaged on the issue and committed to looking at options that support our full range of digital offerings to the EU market. We continue to identify technical compliance solutions that will provide all readers with our award-winning journalism.""
The message is quite simple: the members of the orchestra want more money and a better pension for the sake of art.

Henk
n***@gmail.com
2019-03-12 14:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by HT
Post by Gerard
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-musicians-union-0311-story.html
Muti was to conduct this coming Thursday.
""Unfortunately, our website is currently unavailable in most European countries. We are engaged on the issue and committed to looking at options that support our full range of digital offerings to the EU market. We continue to identify technical compliance solutions that will provide all readers with our award-winning journalism.""
The message is quite simple: the members of the orchestra want more money and a better pension for the sake of art.
How many orchestra members want less money and a poorer pension plan?
Post by HT
Henk
HT
2019-03-12 23:52:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@gmail.com
How many orchestra members want less money and a poorer pension plan?
None, I'm afraid. They behave like blue-collar workers., and that's what they probably are, in essence. The difference is that they earn at least twice as much as their colleagues in a car factory.

Henk
dk
2019-03-11 18:53:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-musicians-union-0311-story.html
Muti was to conduct this coming Thursday.
""Unfortunately, our website is currently unavailable in
most European countries. We are engaged on the issue and
committed to looking at options that support our full range
of digital offerings to the EU market. We continue to identify
technical compliance solutions that will provide all readers
with our award-winning journalism.""
Just VPN yourself to the US! Firefox,
Opera and Internet Explorer now have
VPN built in!

dk
m***@gmail.com
2019-03-11 21:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Defined benefit plans are increasingly rare these days,understandable if management's predictions are correct.
I didn't catch what management's predictions are, but the IRS requirements that the pension be front-loaded instead of funded down the road may be a financial challenge over the next ten years, but ultimately, the overall math of running a pension program haven't changed. There should be cost savings down the road for adequately funding the pension program now.

The shift to a defined contribution plan may save the orchestra money, but it also takes a lot of risk out of the picture by pushing it on to the the players. They have every good reason to want to fight this.
Bob Harper
2019-03-11 23:23:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Defined benefit plans are increasingly rare these days,understandable if management's predictions are correct.
I didn't catch what management's predictions are, but the IRS requirements that the pension be front-loaded instead of funded down the road may be a financial challenge over the next ten years, but ultimately, the overall math of running a pension program haven't changed. There should be cost savings down the road for adequately funding the pension program now.
The shift to a defined contribution plan may save the orchestra money, but it also takes a lot of risk out of the picture by pushing it on to the the players. They have every good reason to want to fight this.
The defined benefit pension is going the way of the dodo bird. PUblic
employee unions, auto workers, and a few others can resist it, but
eventually they'll be gone. Risk? Yes, but the possibility of reward is
there as well.

Bob Harper
O
2019-03-12 13:57:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
The defined benefit pension is going the way of the dodo bird. PUblic
employee unions, auto workers, and a few others can resist it, but
eventually they'll be gone. Risk? Yes, but the possibility of reward is
there as well.
And it's a shame. Had businesses continued to fund decent pension
plans, except for these pie-in-the-sky IRAs and 403s, we would be in a
lot better shape for retirement ages than we are now.

-Owen
Bob Harper
2019-03-12 23:29:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by O
Post by Bob Harper
The defined benefit pension is going the way of the dodo bird. PUblic
employee unions, auto workers, and a few others can resist it, but
eventually they'll be gone. Risk? Yes, but the possibility of reward is
there as well.
And it's a shame. Had businesses continued to fund decent pension
plans, except for these pie-in-the-sky IRAs and 403s, we would be in a
lot better shape for retirement ages than we are now.
-Owen
'pie-in-the-sky IRAs and 403s'?

To what do you refer? If CA, IL, and OR-style public pensions, yes. My
IRA/401K has done reasonably well, but certainly not pie-in-the-sky. But
then I was in the private sector.

Bob Harper
Sol L. Siegel
2019-03-13 03:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Meanwhile, Philly has reached agreement on a pact through 2023.

https://www.philorch.org/press-room/news/philadelphia-orchestra-
association-and-musicians-philadelphia-orchestra-invest#/

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

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Sol L. Siegel
2019-03-14 04:19:56 UTC
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Post by Sol L. Siegel
Meanwhile, Philly has reached agreement on a pact through 2023.
https://www.philorch.org/press-room/news/philadelphia-orchestra-
association-and-musicians-philadelphia-orchestra-invest#/
Whoops.

Hopefully, this link will work.

https://www.philly.com/entertainment/philadelphia-orchestra-settles-
contract-with-musicians-union-20190312.html

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

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Bozo
2019-03-15 00:39:27 UTC
Permalink
What does a desk player at Vienna Phil. make ? Are these numbers real ? :

https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/job/orchestra-musician/austria/vienna

https://slippedisc.com/2018/03/what-musicians-earn-in-german-orchestras/
Herman
2019-03-15 07:51:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/job/orchestra-musician/austria/vienna
https://slippedisc.com/2018/03/what-musicians-earn-in-german-orchestras/
The salary expert numbers are just conjecture, and wrong. The numbers quoted by Lebrecht are closer to the truth, except they don't reflect that a lot of orchestra musicians make money from teaching and chamber gigs. These people aren't starving. Besides, they have no time to spend the money.
dk
2019-03-15 08:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by Bozo
https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/job/orchestra-musician/austria/vienna
https://slippedisc.com/2018/03/what-musicians-earn-in-german-orchestras/
The salary expert numbers are just conjecture, and wrong.
The numbers quoted by Lebrecht are closer to the truth,
except they don't reflect that a lot of orchestra musicians
make money from teaching and chamber gigs. These people
aren't starving. Besides, they have no time to spend the
money.
Spending money does not take much time!
Have you tried Amazon or eBay? ;-)

dk
Herman
2019-03-15 08:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by dk
Post by Herman
Post by Bozo
https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/job/orchestra-musician/austria/vienna
https://slippedisc.com/2018/03/what-musicians-earn-in-german-orchestras/
The salary expert numbers are just conjecture, and wrong.
The numbers quoted by Lebrecht are closer to the truth,
except they don't reflect that a lot of orchestra musicians
make money from teaching and chamber gigs. These people
aren't starving. Besides, they have no time to spend the
money.
Spending money does not take much time!
Have you tried Amazon or eBay? ;-)
dk
well, just look at the BRO topic, and a lot of other RMCR topics and you'll see that a lot of folks spend entire days, all week, just trying to spend a buck.
m***@gmail.com
2019-03-15 12:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
well, just look at the BRO topic, and a lot of other RMCR topics and you'll see that a lot of folks spend entire days, all week, just trying to spend a buck.
Herman, when you dropped into the BRO topic to complain that "nobody talks about music any more", you missed another reason people stopped participating here- the prevalence of jerks.

This statement of yours isn't just the words of someone who could stand to rethink his attitudes, but is just dumb. Those of us who care about BRO the most are probably the ones who appreciate bargains the most because we don't have the bucks to play with.
Frank Berger
2019-03-15 13:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Herman
well, just look at the BRO topic, and a lot of other RMCR topics and you'll see that a lot of folks spend entire days, all week, just trying to spend a buck.
Herman, when you dropped into the BRO topic to complain that "nobody talks about music any more", you missed another reason people stopped participating here- the prevalence of jerks.
This statement of yours isn't just the words of someone who could stand to rethink his attitudes, but is just dumb. Those of us who care about BRO the most are probably the ones who appreciate bargains the most because we don't have the bucks to play with.
My wife agrees with you. I suppose there's some logic in Herman's mind
that rationalizes criticizing people for spending time on collecing and
shopping and trying to save money and getting good service (which of
those is his real gripe anyway and why should he have a gripe?), while
spending his own time criticizing those who do. It's a mystery to me.
Unless it's personal, I speculated before. He decides he doesn't like
certain peope and than picks at whatever they says or do.
Herman
2019-03-15 13:18:21 UTC
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Post by Frank Berger
My wife agrees with you.
You are aware, are you, that "And my wife says so too!" is a Borst Belt comedic punch line?
Frank Berger
2019-03-15 13:59:55 UTC
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Post by Herman
Post by Frank Berger
My wife agrees with you.
You are aware, are you, that "And my wife says so too!" is a Borst Belt comedic punch line?
If you say so. And it's "Borscht."
Herman
2019-03-15 13:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Herman
well, just look at the BRO topic, and a lot of other RMCR topics and you'll see that a lot of folks spend entire days, all week, just trying to spend a buck.
Herman, when you dropped into the BRO topic to complain that "nobody talks about music any more", you missed another reason people stopped participating here- the prevalence of jerks.
This statement of yours isn't just the words of someone who could stand to rethink his attitudes, but is just dumb. Those of us who care about BRO the most are probably the ones who appreciate bargains the most because we don't have the bucks to play with.
As to the latter, I see very little indication of that. I believe I am one of the few people ever on RMCR who said that I don't have the money to buy more cds than I can listen to.

The biggest problem here seems to be where do my 10.000s cds go to when I croak?
Frank Berger
2019-03-15 13:59:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Herman
well, just look at the BRO topic, and a lot of other RMCR topics and you'll see that a lot of folks spend entire days, all week, just trying to spend a buck.
Herman, when you dropped into the BRO topic to complain that "nobody talks about music any more", you missed another reason people stopped participating here- the prevalence of jerks.
This statement of yours isn't just the words of someone who could stand to rethink his attitudes, but is just dumb. Those of us who care about BRO the most are probably the ones who appreciate bargains the most because we don't have the bucks to play with.
As to the latter, I see very little indication of that. I believe I am one of the few people ever on RMCR who said that I don't have the money to buy more cds than I can listen to.
The biggest problem here seems to be where do my 10.000s cds go to when I croak?
I did say that. That you would say or think it's anybody's biggest
problem is strange. You should pause to consider that often things
"seem" to you that are not reality.
AB
2019-03-15 20:51:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Herman
well, just look at the BRO topic, and a lot of other RMCR topics and you'll see that a lot of folks spend entire days, all week, just trying to spend a buck.
Herman, when you dropped into the BRO topic to complain that "nobody talks about music any more", you missed another reason people stopped participating here- the prevalence of jerks.
This statement of yours isn't just the words of someone who could stand to rethink his attitudes, but is just dumb. Those of us who care about BRO the most are probably the ones who appreciate bargains the most because we don't have the bucks to play with.
As to the latter, I see very little indication of that. I believe I am one of the few people ever on RMCR who said that I don't have the money to buy more cds than I can listen to.
The biggest problem here seems to be where do my 10.000s cds go to when I croak?
that is a situation that i shall face soon enuf though i don't have more than perhaps 400 CDs. I soon may have to move to follow my daughter across the U.S. and the possibility of croaking always is lurking around he ocrner

AB
Herman
2019-03-15 21:55:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by AB
that is a situation that i shall face soon enuf though i don't have more than perhaps 400 CDs. I soon may have to move to follow my daughter across the U.S. and the possibility of croaking always is lurking around he ocrner
You're thinking of heading out West?
Bozo
2019-03-31 15:03:46 UTC
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Post by Herman
You're thinking of heading out West?
Go far West ; further news from Midwest :

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/31/us/midwest-floods-levees.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
n***@gmail.com
2019-03-15 13:49:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by Bozo
https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/job/orchestra-musician/austria/vienna
https://slippedisc.com/2018/03/what-musicians-earn-in-german-orchestras/
The salary expert numbers are just conjecture, and wrong. The numbers quoted by Lebrecht are closer to the truth, except they don't reflect that a lot of orchestra musicians make money from teaching and chamber gigs. These people aren't starving. Besides, they have no time to spend the money.
Worse still, they wouldn't have the time to make use of the items that they don't have time to spend money on. Perhaps make repeated monthly donations to a favored charity or cause. That too requires a bit of time to set-up.
m***@gmail.com
2019-03-12 22:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
The defined benefit pension is going the way of the dodo bird. PUblic
employee unions, auto workers, and a few others can resist it, but
eventually they'll be gone. Risk? Yes, but the possibility of reward is
there as well.
Bob Harper
Either a bad metaphor, or an unintentionally appropriate one: the dodo was killed off by people who saw profit in the process. The dodo was not a willing participant.
n***@gmail.com
2019-03-13 09:26:51 UTC
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Though that may be true, and while it might be offered to new appointments it shouldn't be forced onto those already in the existant system.
Bozo
2019-03-12 13:55:54 UTC
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I didn't catch what management's predictions are, ...
From the article : " The challenge with the current defined benefit plan is the funding requirements as proscribed by the IRS have grown dramatically in recent years,” said Alexander’s letter. “In the case of the CSO, for example, two years ago we were required to put $803,000 into the DB pension fund. This year we will be required to put in $3,800,000. Projections indication we will have to contribute $5 to $6 million per year into the DB fund over the next several years, and $36 million into the fund over the next eight years.”

May be a tall order even in Chicago (?).
n***@gmail.com
2019-03-12 15:51:12 UTC
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Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-musicians-union-0311-story.html
I find it degrading that any Chicago Symphony Orchestra performing musician walks a picket line dressed in winter attire holding a picket sign. (And think less of any who would resort to such a measure.) Isn't that better a task for their musician's union?
Post by Bozo
Muti was to conduct this coming Thursday.
Frank Berger
2019-03-12 16:08:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@gmail.com
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-musicians-union-0311-story.html
I find it degrading that any Chicago Symphony Orchestra performing musician walks a picket line dressed in winter attire holding a picket sign. (And think less of any who would resort to such a measure.) Isn't that better a task for their musician's union?
Post by Bozo
Muti was to conduct this coming Thursday.
Why degrading?
n***@gmail.com
2019-03-13 09:36:45 UTC
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Well then maestro Muti, who says he sides with the musicians, might also grab a sogn and parade along side the group.
O
2019-03-13 13:13:46 UTC
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Post by n***@gmail.com
Well then maestro Muti, who says he sides with the musicians, might also grab
a sogn and parade along side the group.
Or, rather, will he cross the picket line and conduct <replacement
musicians> next Thursday?

-Owen
Bozo
2019-03-13 13:27:25 UTC
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Post by O
Or, rather, will he cross the picket line and conduct <replacement
musicians> next Thursday?
Radio report I heard last night (Tues. 3/12 ) said no concerts have yet been cancelled and the parties are to meet again this Friday, 3/15.

BTW, the front door of the Hall, where the pickets are marching , is about 1/2 mile from the shore of Lake Michigan, with nothing really in between , and it's still Winter-ish in the Windy City.
Bozo
2019-03-13 20:57:44 UTC
Permalink
Update : ALL concertos cancelled ; Muti on the picket line, too :

https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-chicago-symphony-cso-strike-muti-press-conference-0313-story.html
Bozo
2019-03-13 20:59:16 UTC
Permalink
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-chicago-symphony-cso-strike-muti->press-conference-0313-story.html
The rest of the works on all the programs, not just the " concertos", were also cancelled.
n***@gmail.com
2019-03-20 14:40:24 UTC
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Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-chicago-symphony-cso-strike-muti-press-conference-0313-story.html
Is standing there (while applauding) for the sake of a picture really joining the picket line? I'd have to see him holding a sign while walking along side some of the CSO musicians before saying he was "on the picket, line too".
O
2019-03-20 16:52:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@gmail.com
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-chicago-symp
hony-cso-strike-muti-press-conference-0313-story.html
Is standing there (while applauding) for the sake of a picture really joining
the picket line? I'd have to see him holding a sign while walking along side
some of the CSO musicians before saying he was "on the picket, line too".
While he's out, is he drawing his salary? I doubt that he is (but it
depends on his contract).

-Owen
n***@gmail.com
2019-03-20 14:46:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-chicago-symphony-cso-strike-muti-press-conference-0313-story.html
If I (only) read what you had written, an entirely different image would have come to my mind.
O
2019-03-12 16:28:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@gmail.com
Post by Bozo
Defined benefit plans are increasingly rare these days,understandable if
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-musician
s-union-0311-story.html
I find it degrading that any Chicago Symphony Orchestra performing musician
walks a picket line dressed in winter attire holding a picket sign. (And
think less of any who would resort to such a measure.) Isn't that better a
task for their musician's union?
They are their musician's union. Should they hire thugs to rough up
blue-haired grannies trying to pass the line to hear some
scab-performed Fauré? It's way too cold to be picketing in tuxedos.

-Owen
Bozo
2019-03-20 13:33:20 UTC
Permalink
Trump's arts budget :

https://www.npr.org/2017/03/16/520401246/trumps-budget-plan-cuts-funding-for-arts-humanities-and-public-media

What can Chicago be expected to pay ?

https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-chicago-symphony-orchestra-strike-cso-0312-story.html

However, is management fudging a bit on the pension numbers ?

https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-strike-update-0320-story.html
Mark Zimmer
2019-03-25 18:10:48 UTC
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Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-musicians-union-0311-story.html
Muti was to conduct this coming Thursday.
All concerts now cancelled through April 2. Damnation. We had tickets for Salonen on March 31 (my Xmas present).
Bubbamike
2019-03-25 19:17:29 UTC
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Blame the Board. They apparently are more invested in winning than in the orchestra. Remember Minneapolis.
r***@gmail.com
2019-03-25 22:33:13 UTC
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Anyone know how long Helen Zell ha been board chair?
Bozo
2019-03-25 23:32:02 UTC
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Post by r***@gmail.com
Anyone know how long Helen Zell ha been board chair?
Since 2015 :

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20151120/ISSUE09/151119786/helen-zell-is-first-woman-to-head-the-chicago-symphony-orchestra

See also :

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/as-support-grows-striking-chicago-symphony-musicians-plan-free-concerts/

" CSO management is taking a hard line against its players. The board chair, Helen Zell, declared the musicians’ demands “unreasonable and detrimental to a sustainable future.” Helen Zell is married to real estate magnate Sam Zell, a supporter of former right-wing GOP Gov. Bruce Rauner, who tried to destroy Illinois public worker unions. And Sam Zell is also known for rampant mismanagement that ran another Chicago institution, the Tribune, into bankruptcy."

And :

https://makeitbetter.net/philanthropy/chicago-powerful-women-2018-helen-zell/
Andrew Clarke
2019-03-26 03:34:14 UTC
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Post by Bozo
Post by r***@gmail.com
Anyone know how long Helen Zell ha been board chair?
https://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20151120/ISSUE09/151119786/helen-zell-is-first-woman-to-head-the-chicago-symphony-orchestra
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/as-support-grows-striking-chicago-symphony-musicians-plan-free-concerts/
" CSO management is taking a hard line against its players. The board chair, Helen Zell, declared the musicians’ demands “unreasonable and detrimental to a sustainable future.” Helen Zell is married to real estate magnate Sam Zell, a supporter of former right-wing GOP Gov. Bruce Rauner, who tried to destroy Illinois public worker unions. And Sam Zell is also known for rampant mismanagement that ran another Chicago institution, the Tribune, into bankruptcy."
https://makeitbetter.net/philanthropy/chicago-powerful-women-2018-helen-zell/
As a matter of interest, what are the CSO's sources of income? Has it ever contemplated selling CDs of its live performances like the LSO, the Halle and Tafelmusik, or even creating - at some expense of course - a top quality AV streaming service like the Berlin Phil.?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Bob Harper
2019-03-26 05:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Bozo
Post by r***@gmail.com
Anyone know how long Helen Zell ha been board chair?
https://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20151120/ISSUE09/151119786/helen-zell-is-first-woman-to-head-the-chicago-symphony-orchestra
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/as-support-grows-striking-chicago-symphony-musicians-plan-free-concerts/
" CSO management is taking a hard line against its players. The board chair, Helen Zell, declared the musicians’ demands “unreasonable and detrimental to a sustainable future.” Helen Zell is married to real estate magnate Sam Zell, a supporter of former right-wing GOP Gov. Bruce Rauner, who tried to destroy Illinois public worker unions. And Sam Zell is also known for rampant mismanagement that ran another Chicago institution, the Tribune, into bankruptcy."
https://makeitbetter.net/philanthropy/chicago-powerful-women-2018-helen-zell/
As a matter of interest, what are the CSO's sources of income? Has it ever contemplated selling CDs of its live performances like the LSO, the Halle and Tafelmusik, or even creating - at some expense of course - a top quality AV streaming service like the Berlin Phil.?
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Unless things have changed, the rules of the Musicians' Union would
probably make it difficult to make much money, no matter how wonderful
it would be to have certain live performances preserved.

Bob Harper
r***@gmail.com
2019-03-26 12:12:49 UTC
Permalink
Reporting on this has not been very probing. How many other major orchestras have defined benefit plans? If the CSO wants to continue to be seen as a world-leading ensemble, is this not a competitive advantage?

I have to imagine that the defined-contribution plan is not a vanilla 401(k) because caps on contributions limit how much you can put in them. Would love to see the details of that proposal.

I can imagine that the board believes they will face less financial demand and risk with a defined contribution plan, but how is this part of a strategy of maintaining the orchestra’s international status?

Given her biography and husband, I wonder what Zell is bringing to the table, belief-wise, and if the orchestra wasn’t well-prepared for this exact situation.
ronl
2019-03-26 23:22:31 UTC
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Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-musicians-union-0311-story.html
Muti was to conduct this coming Thursday.
The CSO had a long (20+ year) history of issuing older performances and broadcasts as fundraising tools. Starting in the mid-70's, they issued an LP "premium" as part of their Radiothon broadcasts annually---these consisted mainly of commercially recorded earlier material with Stock, Rodzinski, Defauw, etc conducting. With the advent of CD's in the mid 80's, they issued annually 2-CD sets spotlighting a specific conductor, or composer, guest conductors, orch members as featured soloists, the CSO chorus, etc drawn from radio broadcasts and some audio tracks of early television shows. There were also a 12-CD set for the orchestra's centennial and a 10CD set around 2000. Alas, due at least in part to the change of management and perhaps some other factors, this practice ceased. Given the current regime, the odds of seeing any reactivation of archival releases would seem slim/none.
Frank Berger
2019-03-27 01:18:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by ronl
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-musicians-union-0311-story.html
Muti was to conduct this coming Thursday.
The CSO had a long (20+ year) history of issuing older performances and broadcasts as fundraising tools. Starting in the mid-70's, they issued an LP "premium" as part of their Radiothon broadcasts annually---these consisted mainly of commercially recorded earlier material with Stock, Rodzinski, Defauw, etc conducting. With the advent of CD's in the mid 80's, they issued annually 2-CD sets spotlighting a specific conductor, or composer, guest conductors, orch members as featured soloists, the CSO chorus, etc drawn from radio broadcasts and some audio tracks of early television shows. There were also a 12-CD set for the orchestra's centennial and a 10CD set around 2000. Alas, due at least in part to the change of management and perhaps some other factors, this practice ceased. Given the current regime, the odds of seeing any reactivation of archival releases would seem slim/none.
Some were hard to find, but I've managed to acquire all of them. I was
disappointed when they discontinued the annual sets.
Andrew Clarke
2019-03-28 13:30:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by ronl
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-musicians-union-0311-story.html
Muti was to conduct this coming Thursday.
The CSO had a long (20+ year) history of issuing older performances and broadcasts as fundraising tools. Starting in the mid-70's, they issued an LP "premium" as part of their Radiothon broadcasts annually---these consisted mainly of commercially recorded earlier material with Stock, Rodzinski, Defauw, etc conducting. With the advent of CD's in the mid 80's, they issued annually 2-CD sets spotlighting a specific conductor, or composer, guest conductors, orch members as featured soloists, the CSO chorus, etc drawn from radio broadcasts and some audio tracks of early television shows. There were also a 12-CD set for the orchestra's centennial and a 10CD set around 2000. Alas, due at least in part to the change of management and perhaps some other factors, this practice ceased. Given the current regime, the odds of seeing any reactivation of archival releases would seem slim/none.
Some were hard to find, but I've managed to acquire all of them. I was
disappointed when they discontinued the annual sets.
So how does anybody not in the audience at Colosimo Hall, Chicago, get to hear the CSO? Are their concerts broadcast, or televised? Have they made any recent recordings, or have they priced themselves out of consideration in that particular market?

Speaking personally, I'd be happy to subscribe to a CSO Digital Concert Hall, just as I'm happy to subscribe to the Berlin Philharmonic one.

Speaking (again) of the BPO streaming service, there's a terrific performance of the Sibelius Third on there, conducted by Sir Simon. Who thought it was terrific? The Berlin audience, judging by the applause at the end.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Bozo
2019-03-28 14:32:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
So how does anybody not in the audience at Colosimo Hall, Chicago, get to hear the CSO
Possible sources, although whether during the strike (? ), as broadcasts usually require Union approval, but the Union may have approved for support.Dont know if the Iowa broadcasts live or not ,WFMT appears to be :

https://www.wfmt.com/programs/chicago-symphony-orchestra/

https://www.iowapublicradio.org/programs/chicago-symphony-orchestra#stream/0
D***@aol.com
2019-03-28 21:36:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Frank Berger
Post by ronl
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-musicians-union-0311-story.html
Muti was to conduct this coming Thursday.
The CSO had a long (20+ year) history of issuing older performances and broadcasts as fundraising tools. Starting in the mid-70's, they issued an LP "premium" as part of their Radiothon broadcasts annually---these consisted mainly of commercially recorded earlier material with Stock, Rodzinski, Defauw, etc conducting. With the advent of CD's in the mid 80's, they issued annually 2-CD sets spotlighting a specific conductor, or composer, guest conductors, orch members as featured soloists, the CSO chorus, etc drawn from radio broadcasts and some audio tracks of early television shows. There were also a 12-CD set for the orchestra's centennial and a 10CD set around 2000. Alas, due at least in part to the change of management and perhaps some other factors, this practice ceased. Given the current regime, the odds of seeing any reactivation of archival releases would seem slim/none.
Some were hard to find, but I've managed to acquire all of them. I was
disappointed when they discontinued the annual sets.
So how does anybody not in the audience at Colosimo Hall, Chicago, get to hear the CSO? Are their concerts broadcast, or televised? Have they made any recent recordings, or have they priced themselves out of consideration in that particular market?
Speaking personally, I'd be happy to subscribe to a CSO Digital Concert Hall, just as I'm happy to subscribe to the Berlin Philharmonic one.
Speaking (again) of the BPO streaming service, there's a terrific performance of the Sibelius Third on there, conducted by Sir Simon. Who thought it was terrific? The Berlin audience, judging by the applause at the end.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
The Chicago Symphony plays in Chicago at Orchestra Hall, and has since 1905. The only public place in Chicago that I can recall being called "Colisimo" is "Big Jim" Colisimo's restaurant in the near-south Loop area in the first years of the last century. Colisimo brought Al Capone to Chicago and is generally credited with having established what became the Chicago crime syndicate. He met his end in a hail of bullets in the lobby of his own restaurant. Around 1921, if I call correctly.

Don Tait
Bubbamike
2019-03-29 18:50:04 UTC
Permalink
Chicago Symphony musicians offer free concerts to the public.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-strike-concerts-0330-story.html

Mrs Zell must be livid while she clips her coupons.
Andrew Clarke
2019-03-30 00:21:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Frank Berger
Post by ronl
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-musicians-union-0311-story.html
Muti was to conduct this coming Thursday.
The CSO had a long (20+ year) history of issuing older performances and broadcasts as fundraising tools. Starting in the mid-70's, they issued an LP "premium" as part of their Radiothon broadcasts annually---these consisted mainly of commercially recorded earlier material with Stock, Rodzinski, Defauw, etc conducting. With the advent of CD's in the mid 80's, they issued annually 2-CD sets spotlighting a specific conductor, or composer, guest conductors, orch members as featured soloists, the CSO chorus, etc drawn from radio broadcasts and some audio tracks of early television shows. There were also a 12-CD set for the orchestra's centennial and a 10CD set around 2000. Alas, due at least in part to the change of management and perhaps some other factors, this practice ceased. Given the current regime, the odds of seeing any reactivation of archival releases would seem slim/none.
Some were hard to find, but I've managed to acquire all of them. I was
disappointed when they discontinued the annual sets.
So how does anybody not in the audience at Colosimo Hall, Chicago, get to hear the CSO? Are their concerts broadcast, or televised? Have they made any recent recordings, or have they priced themselves out of consideration in that particular market?
Speaking personally, I'd be happy to subscribe to a CSO Digital Concert Hall, just as I'm happy to subscribe to the Berlin Philharmonic one.
Speaking (again) of the BPO streaming service, there's a terrific performance of the Sibelius Third on there, conducted by Sir Simon. Who thought it was terrific? The Berlin audience, judging by the applause at the end.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
The Chicago Symphony plays in Chicago at Orchestra Hall, and has since 1905. The only public place in Chicago that I can recall being called "Colisimo" is "Big Jim" Colisimo's restaurant in the near-south Loop area in the first years of the last century. Colisimo brought Al Capone to Chicago and is generally credited with having established what became the Chicago crime syndicate. He met his end in a hail of bullets in the lobby of his own restaurant. Around 1921, if I call correctly.
Don Tait
Well. of all the things that made Chicago famous outside the USA, the jazz is just about gone, the blues is a museum piece and the symphony orchestra's on strike. What continues is The Mob. I'd thought of Capone Hall, but that would have a bit too obvious.

Is there anything named after William "Big Bill" Thompson, one of America's more colorful mayors? He certainly did things they don't do on Broadway. Well not much.



Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Bozo
2019-03-30 01:09:56 UTC
Permalink
http://youtu.be/8Uw-2JYwW5g

Ah, Bix !! Hometown,annual jazz festival, annual 7k marathon, 35 miles south of me :

https://bix7.com/
http://www.bixmuseum.org/
https://www.bixsociety.org/venues.html
Bozo
2019-03-30 01:22:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
What continues is The Mob.
Their boss says " No". In 2018.

Todd Michel McComb
2019-03-30 06:28:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Well. of all the things that made Chicago famous outside the USA,
the jazz is just about gone, ....
A recent album from Chicago, with link to hear....

http://www.freejazzblog.org/2019/03/hatcher-maunu-kirshner-raven-dove-jaki.html
m***@gmail.com
2019-03-29 20:26:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
So how does anybody not in the audience at Colosimo Hall, Chicago, get to hear the CSO? Are their concerts broadcast, or televised? Have they made any recent recordings, or have they priced themselves out of consideration in that particular market?
The orchestra broadcasts still happen weekly on various radio stations. The same content can be streamed from this CSO site with the advantage of not being dynamically compressed, though the are data-compressed:
https://csosoundsandstories.org/category/cso-radio/

There are CD releases, generally of Muti.
https://csosoundsandstories.org/category/cso-resound-recordings/
Andrew Clarke
2019-03-31 11:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
So how does anybody not in the audience at Colosimo Hall, Chicago, get to hear the CSO? Are their concerts broadcast, or televised? Have they made any recent recordings, or have they priced themselves out of consideration in that particular market?
https://csosoundsandstories.org/category/cso-radio/
There are CD releases, generally of Muti.
https://csosoundsandstories.org/category/cso-resound-recordings/
Thanks for that: I've found 26 CSO-Resound discs listed on Presto Classical. As you say, mostly Muti but there's a few from Bernard Haitink as well.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
2019-03-31 21:38:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
So how does anybody not in the audience at Colosimo Hall, Chicago, get to hear the CSO? Are their concerts broadcast, or televised? Have they made any recent recordings, or have they priced themselves out of consideration in that particular market?
https://csosoundsandstories.org/category/cso-radio/
There are CD releases, generally of Muti.
https://csosoundsandstories.org/category/cso-resound-recordings/
Thanks for that: I've found 26 CSO-Resound discs listed on Presto Classical. As you say, mostly Muti but there's a few from Bernard Haitink as well.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Apologies for replying to my own post, but for purposes of comparison, Presto Classical lists 50 'Halle' CDs and 207 'LSO Live'

Andrew C
Andrew Clarke
2019-03-31 21:29:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
So how does anybody not in the audience at Colosimo Hall, Chicago, get to hear the CSO? Are their concerts broadcast, or televised? Have they made any recent recordings, or have they priced themselves out of consideration in that particular market?
https://csosoundsandstories.org/category/cso-radio/
I'm listening to Neeme Järvi and the CSO playing The Bartered Bride overture right now - sounds great.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Bubbamike
2019-03-29 23:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-musicians-union-0311-story.html
Muti was to conduct this coming Thursday.
March 29, 2019
Dear Friend of the CSO,

Amid all that you may have heard from the media or others, we write to explain why we, the Musicians of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, have had to withhold our services and how you may help bring Chicago’s Orchestra back to work again.
It’s fairly simple. For more than 50 years, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra has been touted as the nation’s finest – able to draw talent from across the globe. The Orchestra has served not only as an ambassador to the world, playing on virtually every continent, but we have also brought thousands of patrons to hear our 123 yearly concerts.

While the prestige of the Orchestra has attracted the requisite talent, so too has the Orchestra’s reputation for supporting those who spend their lives and their fortunes preparing and playing for the city and the world – both while they are performing and when they retire. In fact, for more than 50 years Chicago has offered musicians the nation’s top salary and retirement benefits.
That has changed with the current CSO Association’s administration. In the last seven years the Orchestra’s salary has not kept up with inflation. Further, the Orchestra’s benefit package has fallen behind that of Los Angeles and San Francisco. Now, the Association is attempting to change a fundamental tenet of the security of the Orchestra – and American life – our pension plan.
Our current defined benefit plan – one in which we agree that part of our earnings will be deferred and placed into an account that will yield a certain benefit to us each year when we retire – is not strange or unusual. Although private employers’ defined benefit pension plans have waned, such a plan is what every American who works currently has – it’s called Social Security.
Management says that keeping a pension plan is too risky. What they really mean is that individual musicians rather than the Association should assume 100% of the risk that comes with any long-term financial projection.

What is particularly ironic about this, is that contrary to the impression put forward by the Board of Trustees, according to the Board’s own actuaries, keeping the pension plan, as the Musicians suggest, would actually save the Association money – between $11 and $36 million over 10 years.
Let us be clear, this is not just about us. With many of the musicians already vested, our concern is truly about the future of the Orchestra – its ability to retain and attract great talent – a concern shared by Maestro Muti, Daniel Barenboim, and many of the world’s other finest orchestras and leaders.

Behind the specifics we worry that the Board of Trustees may have veered from its historic responsibility and mission.
We’ve seen a change of words. For decades the mission statement was clear that the Orchestra was the heart of the endeavor:
“The central mission of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra Association is to present classical music through the Chicago Symphony Orchestra to Chicago, national and international audiences. The mission is supported by four mutually reinforcing elements: Artistic excellence, continued international preeminence in the field of orchestral excellence; Audience development, leading audience development initiatives; Education, superior education and community programs; and Financial stability, fiscal responsibility for long-term stability."

Recently it has been changed to:
“With the Chicago Symphony Orchestra at its core, the mission of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra Association is to enrich, inspire and transform lives through music, community engagement and education—locally, nationally and internationally.”
But we are worried by more than words.
We are worried that while saying the Orchestra is at its core, the Association has spent little more than one-third of its revenues on the Musicians with the remainder going to administrative, marketing, building and other expenses. This, despite ever-increasing ticket revenue and donations to the Orchestra, an endowment of more than $300 million and a $60 million unrestricted investment fund.

We find it worrisome that the Board of Trustees feels a greater obligation to the bond holders of a debt they incurred in the late 1990’s when they borrowed $145 million dollars (and for which they continue to make a yearly $5 million interest-only payments) than they do to meet their obligation to contribute to our pension, an amount less than the interest on the bonds.
We worry that this “mission and funding drift” endangers one of Chicago’s greatest public assets.
The Chicago Symphony Orchestra is not a private corporation - it is the property, the inheritance and the legacy of the people of Chicago. We want to make certain we can protect it.

To help:
You can sign a petition to the Board of Trustees at
www.ChicagoSymphonyMusicians.com; you can write to Jeff Alexander, President, CSO Association at ***@CSO.org, or call 312-294-3210.
You can attend one of the free “From the Heart of the Orchestra” concerts being given by the CSO Musicians at venues throughout the city.
For details, additional information on issues, schedule of upcoming free concerts and more, please visit www.ChicagoSymphonyMusicians.com and be sure to Follow us on facebook.com/csomusicians and Instagram.com/csomusicians.
Sincerely,
The Musicians of the Chicago Symphony
HT
2019-03-30 18:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bubbamike
Let us be clear, this is not just about us. With many of the musicians already vested, our concern is truly about the future of the Orchestra – its ability to retain and attract great talent – a concern shared by Maestro Muti, Daniel Barenboim, and many of the world’s other finest orchestras and leaders.
Would anyone in Chicago really mind listening to a $ 100.000 fiddler instead of a $ 200.000 one?

Henk
Andrew Clarke
2019-03-31 01:25:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by HT
Post by Bubbamike
Let us be clear, this is not just about us. With many of the musicians already vested, our concern is truly about the future of the Orchestra – its ability to retain and attract great talent – a concern shared by Maestro Muti, Daniel Barenboim, and many of the world’s other finest orchestras and leaders.
Would anyone in Chicago really mind listening to a $ 100.000 fiddler instead of a $ 200.000 one?
Most of those violin cases haven't got violins in them anyway ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Alan Dawes
2019-03-31 09:45:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by HT
Post by Bubbamike
Let us be clear, this is not just about us. With many of the
musicians already vested, our concern is truly about the future of
the Orchestra — its ability to retain and attract great talent — a
concern shared by Maestro Muti, Daniel Barenboim, and many of the
world‘s other finest orchestras and leaders.
Would anyone in Chicago really mind listening to a $ 100.000 fiddler
instead of a $ 200.000 one?
Most of those violin cases haven't got violins in them anyway ...
I assume you are referring to a 1930s "Chicago typewriter" :-)

Loading Image...

Alan
--
***@argonet.co.uk
***@riscos.org
Using an ARMX6
Andrew Clarke
2019-03-31 21:19:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Dawes
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by HT
Post by Bubbamike
Let us be clear, this is not just about us. With many of the
musicians already vested, our concern is truly about the future of
the Orchestra — its ability to retain and attract great talent — a
concern shared by Maestro Muti, Daniel Barenboim, and many of the
world‘s other finest orchestras and leaders.
Would anyone in Chicago really mind listening to a $ 100.000 fiddler
instead of a $ 200.000 one?
Most of those violin cases haven't got violins in them anyway ...
I assume you are referring to a 1930s "Chicago typewriter" :-)
https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-s1ldxg/products/57355/images/58749/machinegun__71420.1435785571.380.380.jpg?c=2
That's the one! I think another Olivetti turns up in a golf bag as members of the Friends of Italian Opera check into the same hotel as Jack Lemon and Tony Curtis.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

"We wuz with you - at Rigolettas"
HT
2019-03-31 23:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by HT
Would anyone in Chicago really mind listening to a $ 100.000 fiddler instead of a $ 200.000 one?
Most of those violin cases haven't got violins in them anyway ...
Wasn't that a guitar?

Henk
Andrew Clarke
2019-04-01 07:51:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by HT
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by HT
Would anyone in Chicago really mind listening to a $ 100.000 fiddler instead of a $ 200.000 one?
Most of those violin cases haven't got violins in them anyway ...
Wasn't that a guitar?
Henk
Certainly not a theorbo. Interesting question - can you buy a theorbo case, or do you have to have one especially made? They seem to vary in length for a start.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
2019-04-01 08:13:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bubbamike
We are worried that while saying the Orchestra is at its core, the Association has spent little more than one-third of its revenues on the Musicians with the remainder going to administrative, marketing, building and other expenses.
I can understand the musicians' suspicions re the sums of money spent on marketing, having seen for myself the appalling job done by a Melbourne marketing firm for a Canberra university which involved a very great deal of money and the 'letting-go' of in-house marketing staff. I'm not sure that marketing can do very much about the demand for live classical music - people either like it or they don't.

Advertising might be another matter - I had no idea that CSO-Resound existed, perhaps because the music I'm currently interested in is not in their repertoire, or because I might want a HIP performance, and or because I can already stream from Berlin. Mind you, I only found out about the BPO's streaming operation because there's an app for it on the Sony BluRay player I bought a couple of years back. In fact I didn't know BluRay players included apps for streaming services at all until I plugged it in.

Here's some HIP Chicago barrelhouse playing:



Andrew Clarke
Canberra
HT
2019-04-01 09:27:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
http://youtu.be/JZqE_HpMo5w
Great link. Thanks!

Henk
John Hood
2019-04-02 00:56:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by HT
Post by Andrew Clarke
http://youtu.be/JZqE_HpMo5w
Great link. Thanks!
Henk
It's amazing what you can hear if you step out of the classical domain.
I have enjoyed listening to 1920s blues for over 50 years. I still love it.

JH
Andrew Clarke
2019-04-02 08:45:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hood
Post by HT
Post by Andrew Clarke
http://youtu.be/JZqE_HpMo5w
Great link. Thanks!
Henk
It's amazing what you can hear if you step out of the classical domain.
I have enjoyed listening to 1920s blues for over 50 years. I still love it.
JH
Never mind the Harmonious Blacksmith - here comes the Boogie-Woogie Baseball Groundsman and Rent Party Specialist:



not to be confused with fellow Chicagoan



Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Bozo
2019-04-02 12:27:58 UTC
Permalink
And then there's Bill Evans :

Bozo
2019-04-06 21:33:02 UTC
Permalink
From another 'net music group post :

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/05/arts/music/phil-the-hall-review.html
HT
2019-04-06 22:09:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/05/arts/music/phil-the-hall-review.html
An interesting correction by the NYT:

"An earlier version of this article misspelled the name of a support organization in New York City for immigrant workers. It is El Centro del Inmigrante, not El Centro del Immigrante."

Henk
Andrew Clarke
2019-04-07 06:56:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/05/arts/music/phil-the-hall-review.html
Time for a Jerry-the Hall concert in Chicago then. The big finale could be a collage of Chicago songs as already exemplified in this thread. There would have to be certain changes unless you really want to provoke a cyclone among the bleeding-heart twitterati. I mean given the incoming mayor you couldn't have

"Out there they have the time of their life,
I knew a man who danced with his wife"

Nor could you have

"Goin' to Chicago, baby, but I cain't take you,
Goin' to Chicago, baby, but I cain't take you,
Ain't nothing in Chicago a monkey woman cain't do."

because the last line sounds as if you're calling a Woman of Color a monkey. The fact that (a) the whole number was written by Persons of Color and usually performed by Persons of Color and (b) a monkey-woman means a female drug addict, won't wash. There just has to be racism and sexism in it somewhere, and them twitterati are uniquely qualified to find it ...

If you had

"Out there they have the time of their life,
I knew a mayor who danced with her wife"

Would that be topical or deeply homophobic? Perhaps there's only one way to find out?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
m***@gmail.com
2019-04-07 20:34:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
"Goin' to Chicago, baby, but I cain't take you,
Goin' to Chicago, baby, but I cain't take you,
Ain't nothing in Chicago a monkey woman cain't do."
because the last line sounds as if you're calling a Woman of Color a monkey. The fact that (a) the whole number was written by Persons of Color and usually performed by Persons of Color and (b) a monkey-woman means a female drug addict, won't wash. There just has to be racism and sexism in it somewhere, and them twitterati are uniquely qualified to find it ...
I just heard this on the radio the other day. The performer mentioned the primary meaning and it was left at that. Nobody misunderstood, and nobody pointed out that the phrase could easily be misunderstood.

I think we should have a sense of humor when these concerns about racial politics and the history of racism get misapplied and stop acting like all our problems are solved except for the noise of complainers. Ignoring and misunderstanding the history of slang isn't half as bad as ignoring and misunderstanding the history of racism, right?
Bozo
2019-04-08 00:16:57 UTC
Permalink
I think we should have a sense of humor when these concerns about racial politics and the history of racism >get misapplied and stop acting like all our problems are solved except for the noise of complainers. Ignoring >and misunderstanding the history of slang isn't half as bad as ignoring and misunderstanding the history of >racism, right?
Should not be a problem in the future ; Trump says America is " full ."
Andrew Clarke
2019-04-08 03:25:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
"Goin' to Chicago, baby, but I cain't take you,
Goin' to Chicago, baby, but I cain't take you,
Ain't nothing in Chicago a monkey woman cain't do."
because the last line sounds as if you're calling a Woman of Color a monkey. The fact that (a) the whole number was written by Persons of Color and usually performed by Persons of Color and (b) a monkey-woman means a female drug addict, won't wash. There just has to be racism and sexism in it somewhere, and them twitterati are uniquely qualified to find it ...
I just heard this on the radio the other day. The performer mentioned the primary meaning and it was left at that. Nobody misunderstood, and nobody pointed out that the phrase could easily be misunderstood.
I think we should have a sense of humor when these concerns about racial politics and the history of racism get misapplied and stop acting like all our problems are solved except for the noise of complainers. Ignoring and misunderstanding the history of slang isn't half as bad as ignoring and misunderstanding the history of racism, right?
I think the performer you heard the other day was covering his own back by carefully explaining that 'monkey-woman' doesn't mean black American women look like apes. It only takes a viral response to words like "guerilla" and "denigration" for people to lose their jobs these days. Not to mention "coloured people"(racist)instead of "people of colour" (not racist, it appears).

The problem with all this wordplay is that it detracts from the real problems in the 'hoods of Milwaukee or Baltimore or Detroit or Camden, NJ etc, etc. It makes us honkies feel virtuous. It doesn't fix anything. Frankly, I don't know what will, except by making it easier for black American families who reject that culture of violence, drugs and fatherless families to move out. And I don't mean 'projects'.

I always remember a report about an unbelievably PC family which decided to move from the Sunbelt to Brooklyn so that their two sons would learn to empathise with people of colour. This noble experiment ended after one of the boys was waylaid by his classmates of colour and thrown off the sidewalk into oncoming traffic.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
m***@gmail.com
2019-04-08 15:13:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
I think the performer you heard the other day was covering his own back by carefully explaining that 'monkey-woman' doesn't mean black American women look like apes. It only takes a viral response to words like "guerilla" and "denigration" for people to lose their jobs these days. Not to mention "coloured people"(racist)instead of "people of colour" (not racist, it appears).
I didn't say the person said anything of the kind. The person simply stated that monkey-woman was slang for and addict. That's it. And that's relevant information that anyone might be curious about the lyrics. You're the one insisting on the unavoidable influence of certain parties, and even when there is no evidence of it, imagining that motives are being shaped primarily by them.
Calm down.
Post by Andrew Clarke
The problem with all this wordplay is that it detracts from the real problems in the 'hoods of Milwaukee or Baltimore or Detroit or Camden, NJ etc, etc. It makes us honkies feel virtuous. It doesn't fix anything. Frankly, I don't know what will, except by making it easier for black American families who reject that culture of violence, drugs and fatherless families to move out. And I don't mean 'projects'.
I don't think I'm in a position to know to know what the "real problems" are. If I happen to be one of the more fortunate, better to just shut up and listen respectfully to the people who are in these places.
Post by Andrew Clarke
I always remember a report about an unbelievably PC family which decided to move from the Sunbelt to Brooklyn so that their two sons would learn to empathise with people of colour. This noble experiment ended after one of the boys was waylaid by his classmates of colour and thrown off the sidewalk into oncoming traffic.
True or not, you're the one making this single story somehow emblematic of something larger. It's not.
HT
2019-04-08 15:33:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
True or not, you're the one making this single story somehow emblematic of something larger. It's not.
Interesting point. When does a story become an example?


Henk
m***@gmail.com
2019-04-08 22:25:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by HT
Post by m***@gmail.com
True or not, you're the one making this single story somehow emblematic of something larger. It's not.
Interesting point. When does a story become an example?
Henk
When it is remembered as being significant. When it is cited as a specific after a discussion of general intentions.

This really a random example of stupidity and bad luck. All sorts of stuff happens. And maybe the protagonists were misguided and foolish. But it doesn't prove anything. There are dumb people on both sides, and peopel who should know better who make foolish choices.

Whatever your point of view, if you have the resources to dig, you will find stories that appear to back up your belief system. The problem is that then you stop looking, and hug what you've found as a totem of truth. Andrew's not remembering this as an amusing story of folly (which is how I see it the more I think about it), but as emblematic in the way it impeaches certain intentions.
HT
2019-04-09 09:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
This really a random example of stupidity and bad luck. All sorts of stuff happens. And maybe the protagonists were misguided and foolish. But it doesn't prove anything. There are dumb people on both sides, and peopel who should know better who make foolish choices.
Yes, it does remind one of the unhappy fellow who was eaten by his pet lion. But even that story could be taken both as an example and a lesson.

Henk
Andrew Clarke
2019-04-08 22:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
I think the performer you heard the other day was covering his own back by carefully explaining that 'monkey-woman' doesn't mean black American women look like apes. It only takes a viral response to words like "guerilla" and "denigration" for people to lose their jobs these days. Not to mention "coloured people"(racist)instead of "people of colour" (not racist, it appears).
I didn't say the person said anything of the kind. The person simply stated that monkey-woman was slang for and addict. That's it. And that's relevant information that anyone might be curious about the lyrics. You're the one insisting on the unavoidable influence of certain parties, and even when there is no evidence of it, imagining that motives are being shaped primarily by them.
Calm down.
I was never calmer in my life, and in fact my tongue was more than a little in my cheek. But when I read about guys being fired for saying "guerilla" (a tennis commentator) or "denigrate" (a bank clerk) I think it's fairly that the influence of the twitterati is unreasonably strong.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
The problem with all this wordplay is that it detracts from the real problems in the 'hoods of Milwaukee or Baltimore or Detroit or Camden, NJ etc, etc. It makes us honkies feel virtuous. It doesn't fix anything. Frankly, I don't know what will, except by making it easier for black American families who reject that culture of violence, drugs and fatherless families to move out. And I don't mean 'projects'.
I don't think I'm in a position to know to know what the "real problems" are. If I happen to be one of the more fortunate, better to just shut up and listen respectfully to the people who are in these places.
I'd certainly like to, but unfortunately it's way too dangerous. What I have to do is watch, say, Louis Theroux, who does go to these places, and does listen respectfully to the people who are in those places, but almost always with a police escort. There's also a heap of You Tube videos by

<https://www.youtube.com/user/CharlieBo313>

some of which do involve talking to the locals.

When you see a black American mother in north Milwaukee showing Theroux where she keeps a loaded rifle under a towel at the side of the bath, plus pistols secreted in every other room in the house, it seems to me that there's a problem with gun violence around there. When I see streets where the *occupied* houses have their ground floor windows all boarded up, I can reasonably infer that there's a lot of burglaries going on. When CharlieBo goes into the minimart at a service station, and the place is done up like Fort Knox, it does seem as if there's more than shoplifting going on.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
I always remember a report about an unbelievably PC family which decided to move from the Sunbelt to Brooklyn so that their two sons would learn to empathise with people of colour. This noble experiment ended after one of the boys was waylaid by his classmates of colour and thrown off the sidewalk into oncoming traffic.
True or not, you're the one making this single story somehow emblematic of something larger. It's not.
So would you be happy to live in one of the 'projects' or take a walk to the local service station after dark in one of the 'hoods I mentioned? Would you have your children go to a public school like the one in the anecdote?

Yes, there are plenty of black Americans who have succeeded in life and avoided the poverty traps (or welfare traps). It's heart-warming to learn about people who've gone into dirt poor and violent places to set up schools where a black American child can get a decent education. But fundamentally the 'hoods will only change if their inhabitants decide that they want to change them.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Todd Michel McComb
2019-04-08 22:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Would you have your children go to a public school like the one in the
anecdote?
The deaths of other students, sometimes at the hand of fellow
students, was a typical part of my educational experience as a young
person. Police officers, holding loaded firearms, patrolled the
hallways on a daily basis.
Post by Andrew Clarke
But fundamentally the 'hoods will only change if their inhabitants
decide that they want to change them.
I have no further desire to engage with you, so take that however you
want, but I'm not going to be silent around such statements. You're
disgusting.
Andrew Clarke
2019-04-09 05:19:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by Andrew Clarke
Would you have your children go to a public school like the one in the
anecdote?
The deaths of other students, sometimes at the hand of fellow
students, was a typical part of my educational experience as a young
person. Police officers, holding loaded firearms, patrolled the
hallways on a daily basis.
And would you want your children to go to a school like that?
Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by Andrew Clarke
But fundamentally the 'hoods will only change if their inhabitants
decide that they want to change them.
I have no further desire to engage with you, so take that however you
want, but I'm not going to be silent around such statements. You're
disgusting.
And you're condescending, denying some of your fellow Americans the ability to make choices and to act on them, given a little help. What else can you do given that every other policy seems to have been tried and made little if any difference?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Todd Michel McComb
2019-04-09 05:29:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
And would you want your children to go to a school like that?
I guess that depends.
Post by Andrew Clarke
And you're condescending, denying some of your fellow Americans
the ability to make choices and to act on them, given a little
help.
Wow, you're really something. So I'm the one who's condescending....

African Americans have not only wanted change, African Americans
have fought for change, for decades and centuries.

Attacks such as yours are trivial, yes. However, they also come
in enormous quantities.
Post by Andrew Clarke
What else can you do given that every other policy seems to have
been tried and made little if any difference?
The simplest thing for this particular moment would be to stop
resisting African American resistance.
m***@gmail.com
2019-04-09 02:04:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
I was never calmer in my life, and in fact my tongue was more than a little in my cheek. But when I read about guys being fired for saying "guerilla" (a tennis commentator) or "denigrate" (a bank clerk) I think it's fairly that the influence of the twitterati is unreasonably strong.
You might have an argument about how people overreact react to political influence from various social media channels, and how those channels are abused to produce certain results, but if you believe that social media users are all of the same political persuasion, you are deluded. Your formula here is too broad and superficial.
Post by Andrew Clarke
I'd certainly like to, but unfortunately it's way too dangerous. What I have to do is watch, say, Louis Theroux, who does go to these places, and does listen respectfully to the people who are in those places, but almost always with a police escort. There's also a heap of You Tube videos by
There are interviews with community activists readily available in many forms if you want to hear from people who live in communities and who are working for change. You don't need a white man to serve it up to you.
Post by Andrew Clarke
When you see a black American mother in north Milwaukee showing Theroux where she keeps a loaded rifle under a towel at the side of the bath, plus pistols secreted in every other room in the house, it seems to me that there's a problem with gun violence around there. When I see streets where the *occupied* houses have their ground floor windows all boarded up, I can reasonably infer that there's a lot of burglaries going on. When CharlieBo goes into the minimart at a service station, and the place is done up like Fort Knox, it does seem as if there's more than shoplifting going on.
I don't know what you are saying. There's an incredible number of guns here in the US, and the fact that poor people have them, too, doesn't surprise me. Also, that there is violence in impoverished communities is obvious.
Post by Andrew Clarke
So would you be happy to live in one of the 'projects' or take a walk to the local service station after dark in one of the 'hoods I mentioned? Would you have your children go to a public school like the one in the anecdote?
I don't think anyone is happy sending their children to dangerous places. Perhaps we should try to imagine what it would feel like to know you had no choice but to do that.
Post by Andrew Clarke
Yes, there are plenty of black Americans who have succeeded in life and avoided the poverty traps (or welfare traps). It's heart-warming to learn about people who've gone into dirt poor and violent places to set up schools where a black American child can get a decent education. But fundamentally the 'hoods will only change if their inhabitants decide that they want to change them.
Pure, ugly, ignorant condescension.
Andrew Clarke
2019-04-09 05:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
I was never calmer in my life, and in fact my tongue was more than a little in my cheek. But when I read about guys being fired for saying "guerilla" (a tennis commentator) or "denigrate" (a bank clerk) I think it's fairly that the influence of the twitterati is unreasonably strong.
You might have an argument about how people overreact react to political influence from various social media channels, and how those channels are abused to produce certain results, but if you believe that social media users are all of the same political persuasion, you are deluded. Your formula here is too broad and superficial.
Post by Andrew Clarke
I'd certainly like to, but unfortunately it's way too dangerous. What I have to do is watch, say, Louis Theroux, who does go to these places, and does listen respectfully to the people who are in those places, but almost always with a police escort. There's also a heap of You Tube videos by
There are interviews with community activists readily available in many forms if you want to hear from people who live in communities and who are working for change. You don't need a white man to serve it up to you.
Which is in itself a racist argument! Louis Theroux isn't overtly preaching anything, btw - his method is to ask questions, and let his interviewees, black and white have their say. He goes to some incredibly tough places, including federal penitentiaries. Meanwhile Charlie Bo is most probably a black American himself. He'd have to be to get out of some of those places alive.

And what are these 'community activists' asking for? Have their proposals worked in the past?
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
When you see a black American mother in north Milwaukee showing Theroux where she keeps a loaded rifle under a towel at the side of the bath, plus pistols secreted in every other room in the house, it seems to me that there's a problem with gun violence around there. When I see streets where the *occupied* houses have their ground floor windows all boarded up, I can reasonably infer that there's a lot of burglaries going on. When CharlieBo goes into the minimart at a service station, and the place is done up like Fort Knox, it does seem as if there's more than shoplifting going on.
I don't know what you are saying. There's an incredible number of guns here in the US, and the fact that poor people have them, too, doesn't surprise me. Also, that there is violence in impoverished communities is obvious.
There's an incredible number of guns all right, but as I understand it, most Americans don't go around shooting people dead because A thought that B dissed their brother or because someone said that C is a 'snitch'.

And because somebody is poor doesn't necessarily mean that they are also violent, or indeed that their violence is justified.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
So would you be happy to live in one of the 'projects' or take a walk to the local service station after dark in one of the 'hoods I mentioned? Would you have your children go to a public school like the one in the anecdote?
I don't think anyone is happy sending their children to dangerous places. Perhaps we should try to imagine what it would feel like to know you had no choice but to do that.
Oh, but they do have choice. Maybe it's limited choice, but it's still choice.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
Yes, there are plenty of black Americans who have succeeded in life and avoided the poverty traps (or welfare traps). It's heart-warming to learn about people who've gone into dirt poor and violent places to set up schools where a black American child can get a decent education. But fundamentally the 'hoods will only change if their inhabitants decide that they want to change them.
Pure, ugly, ignorant condescension.
I think that's a pure ad hominem argument. But - really - are you arguing that these wonderful schools should be closed down? That black Americans who've succeeded should be punished in some way - maybe for 'acting white' which of course is another racist attitude ...

So what is your plan to improve the 'hoods? More money? More projects? Social revolution on behalf of oppressed groups like blacks, women and gays, as was so often preached by the white radical chic back in the 1970s?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
m***@gmail.com
2019-04-09 11:28:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Which is in itself a racist argument!
No, the principle that if you want to help people than you should listen to those who would be on the receiving end of any actions is mere human consideration and the ONLY thing that supports your notion that if disadvantaged communities are going to be improved, they have to "start" caring about it and themselves. How else would that happen? You can't on the one hand demand self-care and on the other insist it is fine to ignore them.

Or you can. And there are other words for the confidence you have in describing what is wrong with others and proscribing what is best for them, without a shred of self reflection or modesty about ones own limitations.

Say what you like- where this topic is concerned, I'm done. Have the last word, have whatever you like; be power's blind spokesperson- you play the role perfectly.
Andrew Clarke
2019-04-09 12:49:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
Which is in itself a racist argument!
No, the principle that if you want to help people than you should listen to those who would be on the receiving end of any actions is mere human consideration and the ONLY thing that supports your notion that if disadvantaged communities are going to be improved, they have to "start" caring about it and themselves. How else would that happen? You can't on the one hand demand self-care and on the other insist it is fine to ignore them.
I'm very sorry, but nowhere have I insisted that it's fine to ignore them? Who, by the way, is 'them'? The dealers on the corner? The distraught mothers of sons who have just been shot for little or no reason? The activists with their rants about how only radical change is going to make a difference and f*ck the police?
Post by m***@gmail.com
Or you can. And there are other words for the confidence you have in describing what is wrong with others and proscribing what is best for them, without a shred of self reflection or modesty about ones own limitations.
I'm sorry, but I happen to think that dealing drugs, shooting people, burgling people's houses and robbery with violence are wrong full stop, whether the perpetrators are black, white or chartreuse. I dare say there are a lot of people in the 'hoods that would agree with me.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Say what you like- where this topic is concerned, I'm done.
I thought that I was the guy who had to calm down!
Post by m***@gmail.com
Have the last word, have whatever you like; be power's blind spokesperson- you play the role perfectly.
I don't particularly want the last word, but it looks as if I have no choice. I would have liked to have known where "power's blind spokesperson" comes from, and what precisely you mean by it, and how it relates to what's going on in, say, Memphis, Ga. Presumably you mean that there are powerful vested interests that are keeping black Americans in these hells, and that unless we smash the forces of bourgeois reaction, white privilege, patriarchy, homophobia and the Republican Party the 'hoods just will not change. Well, I didn't believe that back in the days of flairs and Joan Baez, and I still don't.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

"I once told a white man that if he could be black for just one hour on a Saturday night on Beale St, he would never, never want to be white no more".

- Rufus Thomas, in "The Road to Memphis".
Bozo
2019-04-09 14:48:00 UTC
Permalink
NBA star Kyle Korver :

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/08/sport/kyle-korver-white-privilege/index.html
Bozo
2019-04-09 15:16:17 UTC
Permalink
CSO Union rejects yesterday management's " final, best " offer :

https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-strike-vote-0409-story.html
m***@gmail.com
2019-04-09 17:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-strike-vote-0409-story.html
That's "last, best and final". That's a style of PR writing that deserves to be destroyed.
Frank Berger
2019-04-09 18:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-strike-vote-0409-story.html
That's "last, best and final". That's a style of PR writing that deserves to be destroyed.
My first thought was that giving free concerts undercuts the musicians'
bargaining position a bit, but I suppose the good will among the public
that such concerts might generate outweighs disgruntlement about the
lack of ability to hear music. Probably not a big factor anyway. But I
wonder who loses in an extended strike? Which side has the staying
power? Are the musicians being payed while on strike? Is there a strike
fund? Do the CSOA decision makers really have a lot to lose in an
extended strike? Seems like a musicians are in a weak position. Am I
wrong?
Frank Berger
2019-04-09 18:16:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-strike-vote-0409-story.html
That's "last, best and final". That's a style of PR writing that deserves to be destroyed.
At leas this story seems fairly balanced, as opposed to an earlier one
cited.
m***@gmail.com
2019-04-09 19:02:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Bozo
https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/music/reich/ct-ent-cso-strike-vote-0409-story.html
That's "last, best and final". That's a style of PR writing that deserves to be destroyed.
At leas this story seems fairly balanced, as opposed to an earlier one
cited.
I still don't know how many other major US orchestras have defined benefit pension plans. It's a key question, and an objective measure of measuring the CSO's status against its peers. The refrain that such a plan is "impossible" sounds like an excerpt from the Zell Management textbook.
m***@gmail.com
2019-04-09 17:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/08/sport/kyle-korver-white-privilege/index.html
I was literally came back to post it myself. It's a great read. Here's the link to his actual words. And how does he close? "Time for me to shut up and listen."

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/kyle-korver-utah-jazz-nba
Bozo
2019-04-09 18:49:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
I was literally came back to post it myself.
Korver is a nice " Dutch " kid who was an excellent high school player in Pella,Iowa after moving io Iowa from LA when he was 12 :

Per Wiki : " Korver was born ( 1981 ) in Paramount, California,and is the oldest of four children of Kevin Korver, a pastor for the Third Reformed Church in Pella, Iowa, and Laine Korver. Both of his parents played basketball at Central College in Pella. His grandfather, Harold Korver, is also a pastor at the Immanuel Reformed Church in Paramount, California. He grew up in the Los Angeles area and was a Los Angeles Lakers fan as a child. Watching Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and the Showtime Lakers instilled a love of basketball in Korver that made him want to pursue it himself. He moved to Iowa in 1993 when his father accepted his current pastoral position and graduated from Pella High School. In 2018, he and his three brothers were still in the top 10 in both career scoring and rebounding at Pella High."
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