Discussion:
Toscanini's 1936 All-Debussy Concert properly remastered - at Pristine Classical
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Andrew Rose
2008-06-13 16:08:36 UTC
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Permalink
I use the word 'properly' advisedly - this AM broadcast is never going
to be marvellous sonically - but having heard the appalling version
posted here a couple of weeks ago as a spoiler to this release you'll
maybe agree with me...


Toscanini - All-Debussy Concert, 1936

New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra
conducted by Arturo Toscanini

Broadcast from Carnegie Hall, New York, 19th April 1936
Total Duration: 1hr 50:43


Available as 16-bit and 24-bit FLAC, MP3 or CD-R:


http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Orchestral/PASC113.php



Track listing:


Part One

1. Radio Introduction (0:44)

Le Martyre de Saint Sebastien Act 1: La Cour De Lys (excerpts)
2. 1. Prélude (6:28)
3. 2. Danse Extatique de Sébastien (6:38)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum

4. Prélude à l'Après-midi d'un Faune (9:52)

Nocturnes
5. 1. Nuages (6:31)
6. 2. Fêtes (6:34)

Images: 2. Ibèria
7. 1. Par les rues et par les chemins (7:14)
8. 2. Les parfums de la nuit (7:19)
9. 3. Le matin d'un jour de fête (5:05)



Part Two

1. Introductions to Part Two (4:58)

2. La Damoiselle Elue (22:03)
Soloists: Bidu Sayao (soprano), Rose Bampton (contralto)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum

La Mer
3. 1. De l'aube à midi sur la mer (8:34)
4. 2. Jeux de vagues (6:23)
5. 3. Dialogue du vent et de la mer (9:53)

6. Closing announcements (2:27)



Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert - in 1936, his
final season with the Philharmonic-Symphony Society of New York. There
were three performances - on 16th, 17th and 19th April, 1936 - the
latter being the concert broadcast and presented here.

However, Debussy was a firm favourite of Toscanini's, and he conducted
the Italian première of Pelléas et Mélisande in 1908. He'd come to the
score some four years earlier, in 1904, and shortly after wrote to a friend:

"I hardly knew the name of [a] composer who has won all your
sympathy: the Frenchman Debussy with his Pelléas and Mélisande.... His
art overturns everything that has been done until now. He doesn't have
[Richard] Strauss's technique, but he is a great genius, more elegant
and undoubtedly more daring. On first venturing upon him, you are
completely disoriented, but once you have begun to converse a little
more freely with his language - and that of his inspirer Maeterlinck -
you end up being fascinated. Thinking of the theatre of Maeterlinck's
characters, I can confirm my opinion that Debussy's music is the
fulfillment of that art. However, our public today is not yet mature to
sense this, let alone accept it."

Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and later
corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including asking for -
and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust aspects of the
orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings in order to
improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner voices.

He continued to programme Debussy's music regularly throughout his later
years with the NBC Symphony Orchestra, but never again was the listening
public treated to a full-length concert such as this, where Toscanini
was able to explore both very early and very late compositions, leading
his audience on a musical journey through some of the composer's very
finest orchestral output.



Notes on the remastering: At least two versions of this recording have
circulated amongst collectors over the years, and parts of it surfaced
some time back on a Music and Arts CD release. Until now, however, no
commercial release has ever taken place, quite possibly as a result of
the poor quality of the original recordings, made onto acetate 78rpm
discs by recording directly off-air from the AM concert broadcast.

This has a number of implications, some of which are more readily
overcome than others. The clicks and crackles of the disc surface, and a
good deal of surface noise, have been dealt with. A heavy hum has also
been removed. Pitch instabilities and variations have been smoothed out.
The tonal balance has been improved considerably.

What cannot be "fixed" is the narrow frequency range captured from the
broadcast - there simply isn't anything else above the highest
frequencies heard here to be had. Likewise the limited dynamic range,
and tendency to slight overload distortion during some loud passages, is
indelibly branded onto this recording, and one can only attempt to make
the best of this type of problem. There were also a handful of minor
dropouts and moments of interferenceand other noises which proved beyond
repair.
Overall, however, I judge this historic recording to be a more than
worthwhile release, as it gives us a unique chance to witness the full
sweep of Toscanini's Debussy at a time when he was at the peak of his
powers. There is indeed much to be enjoyed here.
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical

The online home of Classical Music: www.pristineclassical.com
ansermetniac
2008-06-13 16:16:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:08:36 +0200, Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
I use the word 'properly' advisedly - this AM broadcast is never going
to be marvellous sonically - but having heard the appalling version
posted here a couple of weeks ago as a spoiler to this release you'll
maybe agree with me...
Toscanini - All-Debussy Concert, 1936
New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra
conducted by Arturo Toscanini
Broadcast from Carnegie Hall, New York, 19th April 1936
Total Duration: 1hr 50:43
http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Orchestral/PASC113.php
Part One
1. Radio Introduction (0:44)
Le Martyre de Saint Sebastien Act 1: La Cour De Lys (excerpts)
2. 1. Prélude (6:28)
3. 2. Danse Extatique de Sébastien (6:38)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
4. Prélude à l'Après-midi d'un Faune (9:52)
Nocturnes
5. 1. Nuages (6:31)
6. 2. Fêtes (6:34)
Images: 2. Ibèria
7. 1. Par les rues et par les chemins (7:14)
8. 2. Les parfums de la nuit (7:19)
9. 3. Le matin d'un jour de fête (5:05)
Part Two
1. Introductions to Part Two (4:58)
2. La Damoiselle Elue (22:03)
Soloists: Bidu Sayao (soprano), Rose Bampton (contralto)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
La Mer
3. 1. De l'aube à midi sur la mer (8:34)
4. 2. Jeux de vagues (6:23)
5. 3. Dialogue du vent et de la mer (9:53)
6. Closing announcements (2:27)
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert - in 1936, his
final season with the Philharmonic-Symphony Society of New York. There
were three performances - on 16th, 17th and 19th April, 1936 - the
latter being the concert broadcast and presented here.
However, Debussy was a firm favourite of Toscanini's, and he conducted
the Italian première of Pelléas et Mélisande in 1908. He'd come to the
"I hardly knew the name of [a] composer who has won all your
sympathy: the Frenchman Debussy with his Pelléas and Mélisande.... His
art overturns everything that has been done until now. He doesn't have
[Richard] Strauss's technique, but he is a great genius, more elegant
and undoubtedly more daring. On first venturing upon him, you are
completely disoriented, but once you have begun to converse a little
more freely with his language - and that of his inspirer Maeterlinck -
you end up being fascinated. Thinking of the theatre of Maeterlinck's
characters, I can confirm my opinion that Debussy's music is the
fulfillment of that art. However, our public today is not yet mature to
sense this, let alone accept it."
Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and later
corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including asking for -
and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust aspects of the
orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings in order to
improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner voices.
He continued to programme Debussy's music regularly throughout his later
years with the NBC Symphony Orchestra, but never again was the listening
public treated to a full-length concert such as this, where Toscanini
was able to explore both very early and very late compositions, leading
his audience on a musical journey through some of the composer's very
finest orchestral output.
Notes on the remastering: At least two versions of this recording have
circulated amongst collectors over the years, and parts of it surfaced
some time back on a Music and Arts CD release. Until now, however, no
commercial release has ever taken place, quite possibly as a result of
the poor quality of the original recordings, made onto acetate 78rpm
discs by recording directly off-air from the AM concert broadcast.
This has a number of implications, some of which are more readily
overcome than others. The clicks and crackles of the disc surface, and a
good deal of surface noise, have been dealt with. A heavy hum has also
been removed. Pitch instabilities and variations have been smoothed out.
The tonal balance has been improved considerably.
What cannot be "fixed" is the narrow frequency range captured from the
broadcast - there simply isn't anything else above the highest
frequencies heard here to be had. Likewise the limited dynamic range,
and tendency to slight overload distortion during some loud passages, is
indelibly branded onto this recording, and one can only attempt to make
the best of this type of problem. There were also a handful of minor
dropouts and moments of interferenceand other noises which proved beyond
repair.
Overall, however, I judge this historic recording to be a more than
worthwhile release, as it gives us a unique chance to witness the full
sweep of Toscanini's Debussy at a time when he was at the peak of his
powers. There is indeed much to be enjoyed here.
Lumpy gravy, free of charge

You had the music for free, now you can buy the hairballed audio

To each his own

Godd marketing Andrew. Attack a Music Industry giant's work

HAHHHAHAHHAHAHAH

You can be fooled by this fraud or not. Your choice, group

My dog is suing Andrew for the damage done to his ears by the
excessive mids and highs of his 1943 AT Wagner program

The AT Rhenish got great reviews for its sound in Fanfare. So why
would an endorsement by Fanfare have any meaning

At the end of the day , it is Music. Only Music. One day Andrew will
study the phsyics of Music and offer something of value Until then
bullshit marketing will gain him great sales , but no class

Abbedd
Gerard
2008-06-13 16:27:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
Attack a Music Industry giant's work
*G*iant please.
ansermetniac
2008-06-13 16:30:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:27:26 +0200, "Gerard"
Post by Gerard
Post by ansermetniac
Attack a Music Industry giant's work
*G*iant please.
Toscanini used to write letters and never send them. Why don't you
follow the Maestro

Abbedd
Gerard
2008-06-13 16:36:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:27:26 +0200, "Gerard"
Post by Gerard
Post by ansermetniac
Attack a Music Industry giant's work
*G*iant please.
Toscanini used to write letters and never send them. Why don't you
follow the Maestro
Abbedd
"Next time you have an insipid thing to say, hit cancel instead of post"
ansermetniac
2008-06-13 16:39:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:36:14 +0200, "Gerard"
Post by Gerard
Post by ansermetniac
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:27:26 +0200, "Gerard"
Post by Gerard
Post by ansermetniac
Attack a Music Industry giant's work
*G*iant please.
Toscanini used to write letters and never send them. Why don't you
follow the Maestro
Abbedd
"Next time you have an insipid thing to say, hit cancel instead of post"
Parrot

Abbedd
Gerard
2008-06-13 16:56:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ansermetniac
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:36:14 +0200, "Gerard"
Post by Gerard
Post by ansermetniac
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:27:26 +0200, "Gerard"
Post by Gerard
Post by ansermetniac
Attack a Music Industry giant's work
*G*iant please.
Toscanini used to write letters and never send them. Why don't you
follow the Maestro
Abbedd
"Next time you have an insipid thing to say, hit cancel instead of post"
Parrot
Abbedd
"Next time you have an insipid thing to say, hit cancel instead of post"
Sacqueboutier
2008-06-13 17:21:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Rose
I use the word 'properly' advisedly - this AM broadcast is never going
to be marvellous sonically - but having heard the appalling version
posted here a couple of weeks ago as a spoiler to this release you'll
maybe agree with me...
Toscanini - All-Debussy Concert, 1936
New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra
conducted by Arturo Toscanini
Broadcast from Carnegie Hall, New York, 19th April 1936
Total Duration: 1hr 50:43
http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Orchestral/PASC113.php
Part One
1. Radio Introduction (0:44)
Le Martyre de Saint Sebastien Act 1: La Cour De Lys (excerpts)
2. 1. Prélude (6:28)
3. 2. Danse Extatique de Sébastien (6:38)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
4. Prélude à l'Après-midi d'un Faune (9:52)
Nocturnes
5. 1. Nuages (6:31)
6. 2. Fêtes (6:34)
Images: 2. Ibèria
7. 1. Par les rues et par les chemins (7:14)
8. 2. Les parfums de la nuit (7:19)
9. 3. Le matin d'un jour de fête (5:05)
Part Two
1. Introductions to Part Two (4:58)
2. La Damoiselle Elue (22:03)
Soloists: Bidu Sayao (soprano), Rose Bampton (contralto)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
La Mer
3. 1. De l'aube à midi sur la mer (8:34)
4. 2. Jeux de vagues (6:23)
5. 3. Dialogue du vent et de la mer (9:53)
6. Closing announcements (2:27)
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert - in 1936, his
final season with the Philharmonic-Symphony Society of New York. There
were three performances - on 16th, 17th and 19th April, 1936 - the
latter being the concert broadcast and presented here.
However, Debussy was a firm favourite of Toscanini's, and he conducted
the Italian première of Pelléas et Mélisande in 1908. He'd come to the
"I hardly knew the name of [a] composer who has won all your
sympathy: the Frenchman Debussy with his Pelléas and Mélisande.... His
art overturns everything that has been done until now. He doesn't have
[Richard] Strauss's technique, but he is a great genius, more elegant
and undoubtedly more daring. On first venturing upon him, you are
completely disoriented, but once you have begun to converse a little
more freely with his language - and that of his inspirer Maeterlinck -
you end up being fascinated. Thinking of the theatre of Maeterlinck's
characters, I can confirm my opinion that Debussy's music is the
fulfillment of that art. However, our public today is not yet mature to
sense this, let alone accept it."
Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and later
corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including asking for -
and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust aspects of the
orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings in order to
improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner voices.
He continued to programme Debussy's music regularly throughout his
later years with the NBC Symphony Orchestra, but never again was the
listening public treated to a full-length concert such as this, where
Toscanini was able to explore both very early and very late
compositions, leading his audience on a musical journey through some of
the composer's very finest orchestral output.
Notes on the remastering: At least two versions of this recording have
circulated amongst collectors over the years, and parts of it surfaced
some time back on a Music and Arts CD release. Until now, however, no
commercial release has ever taken place, quite possibly as a result of
the poor quality of the original recordings, made onto acetate 78rpm
discs by recording directly off-air from the AM concert broadcast.
This has a number of implications, some of which are more readily
overcome than others. The clicks and crackles of the disc surface, and
a good deal of surface noise, have been dealt with. A heavy hum has
also been removed. Pitch instabilities and variations have been
smoothed out. The tonal balance has been improved considerably.
What cannot be "fixed" is the narrow frequency range captured from the
broadcast - there simply isn't anything else above the highest
frequencies heard here to be had. Likewise the limited dynamic range,
and tendency to slight overload distortion during some loud passages,
is indelibly branded onto this recording, and one can only attempt to
make the best of this type of problem. There were also a handful of
minor dropouts and moments of interferenceand other noises which proved
beyond repair.
Overall, however, I judge this historic recording to be a more than
worthwhile release, as it gives us a unique chance to witness the full
sweep of Toscanini's Debussy at a time when he was at the peak of his
powers. There is indeed much to be enjoyed here.
Wow, Andrew!! The sample sounds great. Wonderful
clarity and fullness of sound. Just a tad harsh in the climaxes,
but that's from the source.

Your work is exemplary.
--
Kindest regards,

Don Patterson
ansermetniac
2008-06-13 17:38:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Just a tad harsh in the climaxes,
but that's from the source.
No it is not. It is from the mastering. His workd is ALWAYS harsh in
the climaxes.

Abbedd
Gerard
2008-06-13 18:17:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sacqueboutier
Your work is exemplary.
Maybe he could "do" some Ansermet.
Gregorius
2008-06-13 17:49:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Rose
I use the word 'properly' advisedly - this AM broadcast is never going
to be marvellous sonically - but having heard the appalling version
posted here a couple of weeks ago as a spoiler to this release you'll
maybe agree with me...
Toscanini - All-Debussy Concert, 1936
New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra
conducted by Arturo Toscanini
Broadcast from Carnegie Hall, New York, 19th April 1936
Total Duration: 1hr 50:43
http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Orchestral/PASC113.php
Part One
1. Radio Introduction (0:44)
Le Martyre de Saint Sebastien Act 1: La Cour De Lys (excerpts)
2. 1. Prélude (6:28)
3. 2. Danse Extatique de Sébastien (6:38)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
4. Prélude à l'Après-midi d'un Faune (9:52)
Nocturnes
5. 1. Nuages (6:31)
6. 2. Fêtes (6:34)
Images: 2. Ibèria
7. 1. Par les rues et par les chemins (7:14)
8. 2. Les parfums de la nuit (7:19)
9. 3. Le matin d'un jour de fête (5:05)
Part Two
1. Introductions to Part Two (4:58)
2. La Damoiselle Elue (22:03)
Soloists: Bidu Sayao (soprano), Rose Bampton (contralto)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
La Mer
3. 1. De l'aube à midi sur la mer (8:34)
4. 2. Jeux de vagues (6:23)
5. 3. Dialogue du vent et de la mer (9:53)
6. Closing announcements (2:27)
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert - in 1936, his
final season with the Philharmonic-Symphony Society of New York. There
were three performances - on 16th, 17th and 19th April, 1936 - the
latter being the concert broadcast and presented here.
However, Debussy was a firm favourite of Toscanini's, and he conducted
the Italian première of Pelléas et Mélisande in 1908. He'd come to the
     "I hardly knew the name of [a] composer who has won all your
sympathy: the Frenchman Debussy with his Pelléas and Mélisande.... His
art overturns everything that has been done until now. He doesn't have
[Richard] Strauss's technique, but he is a great genius, more elegant
and undoubtedly more daring. On first venturing upon him, you are
completely disoriented, but once you have begun to converse a little
more freely with his language - and that of his inspirer Maeterlinck -
you end up being fascinated. Thinking of the theatre of Maeterlinck's
characters, I can confirm my opinion that Debussy's music is the
fulfillment of that art. However, our public today is not yet mature to
sense this, let alone accept it."
Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and later
corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including asking for -
and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust aspects of the
orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings in order to
improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner voices.
He continued to programme Debussy's music regularly throughout his later
years with the NBC Symphony Orchestra, but never again was the listening
public treated to a full-length concert such as this, where Toscanini
was able to explore both very early and very late compositions, leading
his audience on a musical journey through some of the composer's very
finest orchestral output.
Notes on the remastering: At least two versions of this recording have
circulated amongst collectors over the years, and parts of it surfaced
some time back on a Music and Arts CD release. Until now, however, no
commercial release has ever taken place, quite possibly as a result of
the poor quality of the original recordings, made onto acetate 78rpm
discs by recording directly off-air from the AM concert broadcast.
This has a number of implications, some of which are more readily
overcome than others. The clicks and crackles of the disc surface, and a
good deal of surface noise, have been dealt with. A heavy hum has also
been removed. Pitch instabilities and variations have been smoothed out.
The tonal balance has been improved considerably.
What cannot be "fixed" is the narrow frequency range captured from the
broadcast - there simply isn't anything else above the highest
frequencies heard here to be had. Likewise the limited dynamic range,
and tendency to slight overload distortion during some loud passages, is
indelibly branded onto this recording, and one can only attempt to make
the best of this type of problem. There were also a handful of minor
dropouts and moments of interferenceand other noises which proved beyond
repair.
Overall, however, I judge this historic recording to be a more than
worthwhile release, as it gives us a unique chance to witness the full
sweep of Toscanini's Debussy at a time when he was at the peak of his
powers. There is indeed much to be enjoyed here.
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Thanks for this Andrew--great work with some wonderful, historic but
sonically tragic material.
Andrew Rose
2008-06-13 18:44:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...


(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical

The online home of Classical Music: www.pristineclassical.com
Kerrison
2008-06-13 19:52:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Quote: "Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and
later corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including
asking for - and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust
aspects of the orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings
in order to improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner
voices. "

Could you please supply precise chapter and verse as to this
correspondence in the form of hard and fast evidence: that is to say,
the dates they corresponded, (day/month/year), and also exactly where
this actual correspondence can be seen or found. Additionally, if you
have photocopies in your own collection which you are citing here,
please let us know where you obtained them and from whom. Thanks.
D***@aol.com
2008-06-13 20:08:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Quote: "Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and
later corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including
asking for - and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust
aspects of the orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings
in order to improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner
voices. "
Could you please supply precise chapter and verse as to this
correspondence in the form of hard and fast evidence: that is to say,
the dates they corresponded, (day/month/year), and also exactly where
this actual correspondence can be seen or found. Additionally, if you
have photocopies in your own collection which you are citing here,
please let us know where you obtained them and from whom. Thanks.
I assume that Andrew excerpted that from "The Letters of Arturo
Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated by Harvey Sachs" (Alfred A.
Knopf, New York, 2002). I have just looked at my copy's index; there
are many, many entries about Toscanini and Debussy. I haven't had time
to look up all of them. Regardless, I remember reading those words by
Toscanini in Sachs's book.

I'm sure that Andrew Rose will reply on his own.

The book is of inestimable importance and should be purchased and
read by anyone interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini). I'll bet that you'd like Sachs's book a
lot.

Don Tait
Kerrison
2008-06-13 20:29:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Quote: "Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and
later corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including
asking for - and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust
aspects of the orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings
in order to improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner
voices. "
Could you please supply precise chapter and verse as to this
correspondence in the form of hard and fast evidence: that is to say,
the dates they corresponded, (day/month/year), and also exactly where
this actual correspondence can be seen or found. Additionally, if you
have photocopies in your own collection which you are citing here,
please let us know where you obtained them and from whom. Thanks.
  I assume that Andrew excerpted that from "The Letters of Arturo
Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated by Harvey Sachs" (Alfred A.
Knopf, New York, 2002). I have just looked at my copy's index; there
are many, many entries about Toscanini and Debussy. I haven't had time
to look up all of them. Regardless, I remember reading those words by
Toscanini in Sachs's book.
  I'm sure that Andrew Rose will reply on his own.
  The book is of inestimable importance and should be purchased and
read by anyone interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini). I'll bet that you'd like Sachs's book a
lot.
  Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I fear you assume incorrectly: there may indeed be many entries about
Toscanini and Debussy in Sach's book, which I've already consulted,
but none in respect of this alleged "permission" to tamper with La
Mer. Neither is there a single reference to it in any of the books on
Debussy, including the complete Debussy Letters as translated by Roger
Nichols (Faber & Faber 1987). This is why it will be especially
interesting to learn of the hard factual evidence, and the precise
location of the source material, that Mr Rose will doubtless supply.
Wagner Fan
2008-06-13 20:47:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Quote: "Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and
later corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including
asking for - and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust
aspects of the orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings
in order to improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner
voices. "
Could you please supply precise chapter and verse as to this
correspondence in the form of hard and fast evidence: that is to say,
the dates they corresponded, (day/month/year), and also exactly where
this actual correspondence can be seen or found. Additionally, if you
have photocopies in your own collection which you are citing here,
please let us know where you obtained them and from whom. Thanks.
I assume that Andrew excerpted that from "The Letters of Arturo
Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated by Harvey Sachs" (Alfred A.
Knopf, New York, 2002). I have just looked at my copy's index; there
are many, many entries about Toscanini and Debussy. I haven't had time
to look up all of them. Regardless, I remember reading those words by
Toscanini in Sachs's book.
I'm sure that Andrew Rose will reply on his own.
The book is of inestimable importance and should be purchased and
read by anyone interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini). I'll bet that you'd like Sachs's book a
lot.
Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I fear you assume incorrectly: there may indeed be many entries about
Toscanini and Debussy in Sach's book, which I've already consulted,
but none in respect of this alleged "permission" to tamper with La
Mer. Neither is there a single reference to it in any of the books on
Debussy, including the complete Debussy Letters as translated by Roger
Nichols (Faber & Faber 1987). This is why it will be especially
interesting to learn of the hard factual evidence, and the precise
location of the source material, that Mr Rose will doubtless supply.

Its also mentioned in this article but no source is given

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/lamer.html

Wagner Fan
Kerrison
2008-06-13 20:59:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerrison
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Quote: "Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and
later corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including
asking for - and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust
aspects of the orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings
in order to improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner
voices. "
Could you please supply precise chapter and verse as to this
correspondence in the form of hard and fast evidence: that is to say,
the dates they corresponded, (day/month/year), and also exactly where
this actual correspondence can be seen or found. Additionally, if you
have photocopies in your own collection which you are citing here,
please let us know where you obtained them and from whom. Thanks.
I assume that Andrew excerpted that from "The Letters of Arturo
Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated by Harvey Sachs" (Alfred A.
Knopf, New York, 2002). I have just looked at my copy's index; there
are many, many entries about Toscanini and Debussy. I haven't had time
to look up all of them. Regardless, I remember reading those words by
Toscanini in Sachs's book.
I'm sure that Andrew Rose will reply on his own.
The book is of inestimable importance and should be purchased and
read by anyone interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini). I'll bet that you'd like Sachs's book a
lot.
Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I fear you assume incorrectly: there may indeed be many entries about
Toscanini and Debussy in Sach's book, which I've already consulted,
but none in respect of this alleged "permission" to tamper with La
Mer. Neither is there a single reference to it in any of the books on
Debussy, including the complete Debussy Letters as translated by Roger
Nichols (Faber & Faber 1987). This is why it will be especially
interesting to learn of the hard factual evidence, and the precise
location of the source material, that Mr Rose will doubtless supply.
Its also mentioned in this article but no source is given
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/lamer.html
Wagner Fan- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thanks for the link but again it's nothing more than one writer
rehashing what another writer has written in what really amounts to
second or third-hand hearsay. I'm still interested to know exactly
when this alleged "correspondence" took place and indeed in which
language it was conducted.
ansermetniac
2008-06-13 21:00:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:59:06 -0700 (PDT), Kerrison
Post by Kerrison
Post by Kerrison
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Quote: "Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and
later corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including
asking for - and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust
aspects of the orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings
in order to improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner
voices. "
Could you please supply precise chapter and verse as to this
correspondence in the form of hard and fast evidence: that is to say,
the dates they corresponded, (day/month/year), and also exactly where
this actual correspondence can be seen or found. Additionally, if you
have photocopies in your own collection which you are citing here,
please let us know where you obtained them and from whom. Thanks.
I assume that Andrew excerpted that from "The Letters of Arturo
Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated by Harvey Sachs" (Alfred A.
Knopf, New York, 2002). I have just looked at my copy's index; there
are many, many entries about Toscanini and Debussy. I haven't had time
to look up all of them. Regardless, I remember reading those words by
Toscanini in Sachs's book.
I'm sure that Andrew Rose will reply on his own.
The book is of inestimable importance and should be purchased and
read by anyone interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini). I'll bet that you'd like Sachs's book a
lot.
Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I fear you assume incorrectly: there may indeed be many entries about
Toscanini and Debussy in Sach's book, which I've already consulted,
but none in respect of this alleged "permission" to tamper with La
Mer. Neither is there a single reference to it in any of the books on
Debussy, including the complete Debussy Letters as translated by Roger
Nichols (Faber & Faber 1987). This is why it will be especially
interesting to learn of the hard factual evidence, and the precise
location of the source material, that Mr Rose will doubtless supply.
Its also mentioned in this article but no source is given
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/lamer.html
Wagner Fan- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thanks for the link but again it's nothing more than one writer
rehashing what another writer has written in what really amounts to
second or third-hand hearsay. I'm still interested to know exactly
when this alleged "correspondence" took place and indeed in which
language it was conducted.
AT was known to speak French

Abbedd
ansermetniac
2008-06-13 21:10:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:00:54 -0400, ansermetniac
Post by ansermetniac
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:59:06 -0700 (PDT), Kerrison
Post by Kerrison
Post by Kerrison
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Quote: "Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and
later corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including
asking for - and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust
aspects of the orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings
in order to improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner
voices. "
Could you please supply precise chapter and verse as to this
correspondence in the form of hard and fast evidence: that is to say,
the dates they corresponded, (day/month/year), and also exactly where
this actual correspondence can be seen or found. Additionally, if you
have photocopies in your own collection which you are citing here,
please let us know where you obtained them and from whom. Thanks.
I assume that Andrew excerpted that from "The Letters of Arturo
Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated by Harvey Sachs" (Alfred A.
Knopf, New York, 2002). I have just looked at my copy's index; there
are many, many entries about Toscanini and Debussy. I haven't had time
to look up all of them. Regardless, I remember reading those words by
Toscanini in Sachs's book.
I'm sure that Andrew Rose will reply on his own.
The book is of inestimable importance and should be purchased and
read by anyone interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini). I'll bet that you'd like Sachs's book a
lot.
Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I fear you assume incorrectly: there may indeed be many entries about
Toscanini and Debussy in Sach's book, which I've already consulted,
but none in respect of this alleged "permission" to tamper with La
Mer. Neither is there a single reference to it in any of the books on
Debussy, including the complete Debussy Letters as translated by Roger
Nichols (Faber & Faber 1987). This is why it will be especially
interesting to learn of the hard factual evidence, and the precise
location of the source material, that Mr Rose will doubtless supply.
Its also mentioned in this article but no source is given
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/lamer.html
Wagner Fan- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thanks for the link but again it's nothing more than one writer
rehashing what another writer has written in what really amounts to
second or third-hand hearsay. I'm still interested to know exactly
when this alleged "correspondence" took place and indeed in which
language it was conducted.
AT was known to speak French
Abbedd
For those who want to burn the sample stereo mp3 to disc before
buying, here is the link

http://www.pristinestorage.com/samples/PASC113.mp3


Was Carnegie Hall ever this harsh? Never in a million years

Pseudo-Music without the nuances that make an AT performance what it
is. Nice Audio, though

We have suffered this type of sound since the dawn of the tape era. We
do not need another party pissing on the AT legacy.

When the Chorus hits FF, watch out. And when Saul Goodman rolls those
sticks loud, give way

Psychedelic Jaenicke! Way out man. Give me some ludes and some black
lights

Abbedd
Andrew Rose
2008-06-13 21:09:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerrison
Post by Kerrison
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Quote: "Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and
later corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including
asking for - and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust
aspects of the orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings
in order to improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner
voices. "
Could you please supply precise chapter and verse as to this
correspondence in the form of hard and fast evidence: that is to say,
the dates they corresponded, (day/month/year), and also exactly where
this actual correspondence can be seen or found. Additionally, if you
have photocopies in your own collection which you are citing here,
please let us know where you obtained them and from whom. Thanks.
I assume that Andrew excerpted that from "The Letters of Arturo
Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated by Harvey Sachs" (Alfred A.
Knopf, New York, 2002). I have just looked at my copy's index; there
are many, many entries about Toscanini and Debussy. I haven't had time
to look up all of them. Regardless, I remember reading those words by
Toscanini in Sachs's book.
I'm sure that Andrew Rose will reply on his own.
The book is of inestimable importance and should be purchased and
read by anyone interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini). I'll bet that you'd like Sachs's book a
lot.
Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I fear you assume incorrectly: there may indeed be many entries about
Toscanini and Debussy in Sach's book, which I've already consulted,
but none in respect of this alleged "permission" to tamper with La
Mer. Neither is there a single reference to it in any of the books on
Debussy, including the complete Debussy Letters as translated by Roger
Nichols (Faber & Faber 1987). This is why it will be especially
interesting to learn of the hard factual evidence, and the precise
location of the source material, that Mr Rose will doubtless supply.
Its also mentioned in this article but no source is given
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/lamer.html
Wagner Fan- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thanks for the link but again it's nothing more than one writer
rehashing what another writer has written in what really amounts to
second or third-hand hearsay. I'm still interested to know exactly
when this alleged "correspondence" took place and indeed in which
language it was conducted.
My own source is Mortimer H. Frank's "Arturo Toscanini The NBC Years",
in which he writes:

"The relatively dry acoustics of studio 8H may have contributed to
Toscanini's obsession with clarity in La mer. Granted, he had always
sought it, gaining approval from Debussy to amend the score with
doublings and rebalancings so that everything would "sound"..." (p.153)

If this is factually incorrect I suggest you take it up with Mr. Frank.
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical

The online home of Classical Music: www.pristineclassical.com
Kerrison
2008-06-13 21:38:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Kerrison
Post by Kerrison
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Quote: "Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and
later corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including
asking for - and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust
aspects of the orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings
in order to improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner
voices. "
Could you please supply precise chapter and verse as to this
correspondence in the form of hard and fast evidence: that is to say,
the dates they corresponded, (day/month/year), and also exactly where
this actual correspondence can be seen or found. Additionally, if you
have photocopies in your own collection which you are citing here,
please let us know where you obtained them and from whom. Thanks.
I assume that Andrew excerpted that from "The Letters of Arturo
Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated by Harvey Sachs" (Alfred A.
Knopf, New York, 2002). I have just looked at my copy's index; there
are many, many entries about Toscanini and Debussy. I haven't had time
to look up all of them. Regardless, I remember reading those words by
Toscanini in Sachs's book.
I'm sure that Andrew Rose will reply on his own.
The book is of inestimable importance and should be purchased and
read by anyone interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini). I'll bet that you'd like Sachs's book a
lot.
Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I fear you assume incorrectly: there may indeed be many entries about
Toscanini and Debussy in Sach's book, which I've already consulted,
but none in respect of this alleged "permission" to tamper with La
Mer. Neither is there a single reference to it in any of the books on
Debussy, including the complete Debussy Letters as translated by Roger
Nichols (Faber & Faber 1987). This is why it will be especially
interesting to learn of the hard factual evidence, and the precise
location of the source material, that Mr Rose will doubtless supply.
Its also mentioned in this article but no source is given
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/lamer.html
Wagner Fan- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thanks for the link but again it's nothing more than one writer
rehashing what another writer has written in what really amounts to
second or third-hand hearsay. I'm still interested to know exactly
when this alleged "correspondence" took place and indeed in which
language it was conducted.
My own source is Mortimer H. Frank's "Arturo Toscanini The NBC Years",
"The relatively dry acoustics of studio 8H may have contributed to
Toscanini's obsession with clarity in La mer. Granted, he had always
sought it, gaining approval from Debussy to amend the score with
doublings and rebalancings so that everything would "sound"..." (p.153)
If this is factually incorrect I suggest you take it up with Mr. Frank.
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Why should I take it up with Mr Frank when it is not him but you who
have stated here that AT and Debussy "corresponded on a number of
occasions." How many occasions exactly, and when?

Evidently you can't after all produce one iota of evidence and neither
could Frank, as it happens, since he - like the writer in the link
above - all too obviously copied down what he'd read somewhere else,
just like you've done, without bothering to check any facts. He can no
more produce the "correspondence" you refer to than anyone else, since
none exists nor has ever existed.

What we have here is a classic example of the Toscanini adulators,
having painted themselves into a corner with all that "Do As Written"
baloney, desperately scratching around to try and get their idol off
the "tampering with the score again" hook by cooking up this fiction
about "permissions" and "correspondences". I suppose Frank will be
telling us next that Toscanini got Tchaikovsky's "permission" to
rescore the Manfred Symphony from the very first bar, adding tam-tam
crashes here, cutting 100 bars there, having trumpets play the oboe
parts somewhere else, re-writing the string parts, and so on. If he
did I wouldn't put it past certain people to believe him.
Wagner Fan
2008-06-13 21:57:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Kerrison
Post by Kerrison
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Quote: "Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and
later corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including
asking for - and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust
aspects of the orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings
in order to improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner
voices. "
Could you please supply precise chapter and verse as to this
correspondence in the form of hard and fast evidence: that is to say,
the dates they corresponded, (day/month/year), and also exactly where
this actual correspondence can be seen or found. Additionally, if you
have photocopies in your own collection which you are citing here,
please let us know where you obtained them and from whom. Thanks.
I assume that Andrew excerpted that from "The Letters of Arturo
Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated by Harvey Sachs" (Alfred A.
Knopf, New York, 2002). I have just looked at my copy's index; there
are many, many entries about Toscanini and Debussy. I haven't had time
to look up all of them. Regardless, I remember reading those words by
Toscanini in Sachs's book.
I'm sure that Andrew Rose will reply on his own.
The book is of inestimable importance and should be purchased and
read by anyone interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini). I'll bet that you'd like Sachs's book a
lot.
Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I fear you assume incorrectly: there may indeed be many entries about
Toscanini and Debussy in Sach's book, which I've already consulted,
but none in respect of this alleged "permission" to tamper with La
Mer. Neither is there a single reference to it in any of the books on
Debussy, including the complete Debussy Letters as translated by Roger
Nichols (Faber & Faber 1987). This is why it will be especially
interesting to learn of the hard factual evidence, and the precise
location of the source material, that Mr Rose will doubtless supply.
Its also mentioned in this article but no source is given
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/lamer.html
Wagner Fan- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thanks for the link but again it's nothing more than one writer
rehashing what another writer has written in what really amounts to
second or third-hand hearsay. I'm still interested to know exactly
when this alleged "correspondence" took place and indeed in which
language it was conducted.
My own source is Mortimer H. Frank's "Arturo Toscanini The NBC Years",
"The relatively dry acoustics of studio 8H may have contributed to
Toscanini's obsession with clarity in La mer. Granted, he had always
sought it, gaining approval from Debussy to amend the score with
doublings and rebalancings so that everything would "sound"..." (p.153)
If this is factually incorrect I suggest you take it up with Mr. Frank.
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Why should I take it up with Mr Frank when it is not him but you who
have stated here that AT and Debussy "corresponded on a number of
occasions." How many occasions exactly, and when?
Evidently you can't after all produce one iota of evidence and neither
could Frank, as it happens, since he - like the writer in the link
above - all too obviously copied down what he'd read somewhere else,
just like you've done, without bothering to check any facts. He can no
more produce the "correspondence" you refer to than anyone else, since
none exists nor has ever existed.
What we have here is a classic example of the Toscanini adulators,
having painted themselves into a corner with all that "Do As Written"
baloney, desperately scratching around to try and get their idol off
the "tampering with the score again" hook by cooking up this fiction
about "permissions" and "correspondences". I suppose Frank will be
telling us next that Toscanini got Tchaikovsky's "permission" to
rescore the Manfred Symphony from the very first bar, adding tam-tam
crashes here, cutting 100 bars there, having trumpets play the oboe
parts somewhere else, re-writing the string parts, and so on. If he
did I wouldn't put it past certain people to believe him.
"He can no
more produce the "correspondence" you refer to than anyone else, since
none exists nor has ever existed."

How do you know that????

And where do you get the idea that either Mr. Rose or Mr. Frank are
"Toscanini idolators"??? Even if they are incorrect, that is not proof they
are members of a vast conspiracy to justify some of Toscanini's score
tamperings Take it easy there - as a poster reading these postings with some
interest, I'm afraid the vehemence of your reply is taking a bit away from
the substance of your postings. Wagner Fan
Bob Harper
2008-06-13 23:35:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Wagner Fan
Post by Kerrison
What we have here is a classic example of the Toscanini adulators,
having painted themselves into a corner with all that "Do As Written"
baloney, desperately scratching around to try and get their idol off
the "tampering with the score again" hook by cooking up this fiction
about "permissions" and "correspondences". I suppose Frank will be
telling us next that Toscanini got Tchaikovsky's "permission" to
rescore the Manfred Symphony from the very first bar, adding tam-tam
crashes here, cutting 100 bars there, having trumpets play the oboe
parts somewhere else, re-writing the string parts, and so on. If he
did I wouldn't put it past certain people to believe him.
"He can no
more produce the "correspondence" you refer to than anyone else, since
none exists nor has ever existed."
How do you know that????
And where do you get the idea that either Mr. Rose or Mr. Frank are
"Toscanini idolators"??? Even if they are incorrect, that is not proof they
are members of a vast conspiracy to justify some of Toscanini's score
tamperings Take it easy there - as a poster reading these postings with some
interest, I'm afraid the vehemence of your reply is taking a bit away from
the substance of your postings. Wagner Fan
Indeed. Why the third degree; were you forced to listen to AT's
recordings as a child, when all you really wanted to hear were WF's?

Bob Harper
E. Robles
2008-06-13 22:14:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Kerrison
Post by Kerrison
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Quote: "Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and
later corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including
asking for - and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust
aspects of the orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings
in order to improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner
voices. "
Could you please supply precise chapter and verse as to this
correspondence in the form of hard and fast evidence: that is to say,
the dates they corresponded, (day/month/year), and also exactly where
this actual correspondence can be seen or found. Additionally, if you
have photocopies in your own collection which you are citing here,
please let us know where you obtained them and from whom. Thanks.
I assume that Andrew excerpted that from "The Letters of Arturo
Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated by Harvey Sachs" (Alfred A.
Knopf, New York, 2002). I have just looked at my copy's index; there
are many, many entries about Toscanini and Debussy. I haven't had time
to look up all of them. Regardless, I remember reading those words by
Toscanini in Sachs's book.
I'm sure that Andrew Rose will reply on his own.
The book is of inestimable importance and should be purchased and
read by anyone interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini). I'll bet that you'd like Sachs's book a
lot.
Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I fear you assume incorrectly: there may indeed be many entries about
Toscanini and Debussy in Sach's book, which I've already consulted,
but none in respect of this alleged "permission" to tamper with La
Mer. Neither is there a single reference to it in any of the books on
Debussy, including the complete Debussy Letters as translated by Roger
Nichols (Faber & Faber 1987). This is why it will be especially
interesting to learn of the hard factual evidence, and the precise
location of the source material, that Mr Rose will doubtless supply.
Its also mentioned in this article but no source is given
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/lamer.html
Wagner Fan- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thanks for the link but again it's nothing more than one writer
rehashing what another writer has written in what really amounts to
second or third-hand hearsay. I'm still interested to know exactly
when this alleged "correspondence" took place and indeed in which
language it was conducted.
My own source is Mortimer H. Frank's "Arturo Toscanini The NBC Years",
"The relatively dry acoustics of studio 8H may have contributed to
Toscanini's obsession with clarity in La mer. Granted, he had always
sought it, gaining approval from Debussy to amend the score with
doublings and rebalancings so that everything would "sound"..." (p.153)
If this is factually incorrect I suggest you take it up with Mr. Frank.
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com-Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Why should I take it up with Mr Frank when it is not him but you who
have stated here that AT and Debussy "corresponded on a number of
occasions." How many occasions exactly, and when?
Evidently you can't after all produce one iota of evidence and neither
could Frank, as it happens, since he - like the writer in the link
above - all too obviously copied down what he'd read somewhere else,
just like you've done, without bothering to check any facts. He can no
more produce the "correspondence" you refer to than anyone else, since
none exists nor has ever existed.
What we have here is a classic example of the Toscanini adulators,
having painted themselves into a corner with all that "Do As Written"
baloney, desperately scratching around to try and get their idol off
the "tampering with the score again" hook by cooking up this fiction
about "permissions" and "correspondences". I suppose Frank will be
telling us next that Toscanini got Tchaikovsky's "permission" to
rescore the Manfred Symphony from the very first bar, adding tam-tam
crashes here, cutting 100 bars there, having trumpets play the oboe
parts somewhere else, re-writing the string parts, and so on. If he
did I wouldn't put it past certain people to believe him.
I think that given the perspective of time we know that Toscanini's
mantra "as it's written" was a myth. I think his alterations to La Mer
are effective, others will disagree. I would love to see his score to
see what exactly he did - maybe there's a notation there about
Debussy's okay. Like my father used to say - the things I remember
best are the things that never happened.
3M
2008-06-14 00:50:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:38:22 -0700 (PDT), Kerrison
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Kerrison
Post by Kerrison
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Quote: "Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and
later corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including
asking for - and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust
aspects of the orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings
in order to improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner
voices. "
Could you please supply precise chapter and verse as to this
correspondence in the form of hard and fast evidence: that is to say,
the dates they corresponded, (day/month/year), and also exactly where
this actual correspondence can be seen or found. Additionally, if you
have photocopies in your own collection which you are citing here,
please let us know where you obtained them and from whom. Thanks.
I assume that Andrew excerpted that from "The Letters of Arturo
Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated by Harvey Sachs" (Alfred A.
Knopf, New York, 2002). I have just looked at my copy's index; there
are many, many entries about Toscanini and Debussy. I haven't had time
to look up all of them. Regardless, I remember reading those words by
Toscanini in Sachs's book.
I'm sure that Andrew Rose will reply on his own.
The book is of inestimable importance and should be purchased and
read by anyone interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini). I'll bet that you'd like Sachs's book a
lot.
Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I fear you assume incorrectly: there may indeed be many entries about
Toscanini and Debussy in Sach's book, which I've already consulted,
but none in respect of this alleged "permission" to tamper with La
Mer. Neither is there a single reference to it in any of the books on
Debussy, including the complete Debussy Letters as translated by Roger
Nichols (Faber & Faber 1987). This is why it will be especially
interesting to learn of the hard factual evidence, and the precise
location of the source material, that Mr Rose will doubtless supply.
Its also mentioned in this article but no source is given
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/lamer.html
Wagner Fan- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thanks for the link but again it's nothing more than one writer
rehashing what another writer has written in what really amounts to
second or third-hand hearsay. I'm still interested to know exactly
when this alleged "correspondence" took place and indeed in which
language it was conducted.
My own source is Mortimer H. Frank's "Arturo Toscanini The NBC Years",
"The relatively dry acoustics of studio 8H may have contributed to
Toscanini's obsession with clarity in La mer. Granted, he had always
sought it, gaining approval from Debussy to amend the score with
doublings and rebalancings so that everything would "sound"..." (p.153)
If this is factually incorrect I suggest you take it up with Mr. Frank.
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Why should I take it up with Mr Frank when it is not him but you who
have stated here that AT and Debussy "corresponded on a number of
occasions." How many occasions exactly, and when?
Evidently you can't after all produce one iota of evidence and neither
could Frank, as it happens, since he - like the writer in the link
above - all too obviously copied down what he'd read somewhere else,
just like you've done, without bothering to check any facts. He can no
more produce the "correspondence" you refer to than anyone else, since
none exists nor has ever existed.
What we have here is a classic example of the Toscanini adulators,
having painted themselves into a corner with all that "Do As Written"
baloney, desperately scratching around to try and get their idol off
the "tampering with the score again" hook by cooking up this fiction
about "permissions" and "correspondences". I suppose Frank will be
telling us next that Toscanini got Tchaikovsky's "permission" to
rescore the Manfred Symphony from the very first bar, adding tam-tam
crashes here, cutting 100 bars there, having trumpets play the oboe
parts somewhere else, re-writing the string parts, and so on. If he
did I wouldn't put it past certain people to believe him.
There was correspondence between Toscanini and Debussy. Sachs quotes
from two letters written by Toscanini to Debussy in the Pierpont
Morgan Library (if you'd like to look and perhaps check the ink to see
if it was forged.) You may be correct about there not being a
specific letter in which Debussy approves the changes Toscanini made
in La Mer. However there a copy of the piano vocal score of Pelleas in
which Debussy wrote changes to the published score and that Debussy
sent to Toscanini - described on pages 78 and 79 of Sach's "Letters
of AT". I am an unabashed Toscanini idolator. You are obviously a
Toscaniniphobe. I'll leave it at that.
Don
Gregorius
2008-06-14 05:29:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by 3M
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:38:22 -0700 (PDT), Kerrison
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Kerrison
Post by Kerrison
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Quote: "Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and
later corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including
asking for - and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust
aspects of the orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings
in order to improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner
voices. "
Could you please supply precise chapter and verse as to this
correspondence in the form of hard and fast evidence: that is to say,
the dates they corresponded, (day/month/year), and also exactly where
this actual correspondence can be seen or found. Additionally, if you
have photocopies in your own collection which you are citing here,
please let us know where you obtained them and from whom. Thanks.
I assume that Andrew excerpted that from "The Letters of Arturo
Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated by Harvey Sachs" (Alfred A.
Knopf, New York, 2002). I have just looked at my copy's index; there
are many, many entries about Toscanini and Debussy. I haven't had time
to look up all of them. Regardless, I remember reading those words by
Toscanini in Sachs's book.
I'm sure that Andrew Rose will reply on his own.
The book is of inestimable importance and should be purchased and
read by anyone interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini). I'll bet that you'd like Sachs's book a
lot.
Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I fear you assume incorrectly: there may indeed be many entries about
Toscanini and Debussy in Sach's book, which I've already consulted,
but none in respect of this alleged "permission" to tamper with La
Mer. Neither is there a single reference to it in any of the books on
Debussy, including the complete Debussy Letters as translated by Roger
Nichols (Faber & Faber 1987). This is why it will be especially
interesting to learn of the hard factual evidence, and the precise
location of the source material, that Mr Rose will doubtless supply.
Its also mentioned in this article but no source is given
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/lamer.html
Wagner Fan- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thanks for the link but again it's nothing more than one writer
rehashing what another writer has written in what really amounts to
second or third-hand hearsay. I'm still interested to know exactly
when this alleged "correspondence" took place and indeed in which
language it was conducted.
My own source is Mortimer H. Frank's "Arturo Toscanini The NBC Years",
"The relatively dry acoustics of studio 8H may have contributed to
Toscanini's obsession with clarity in La mer. Granted, he had always
sought it, gaining approval from Debussy to amend the score with
doublings and rebalancings so that everything would "sound"..." (p.153)
If this is factually incorrect I suggest you take it up with Mr. Frank.
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com-Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Why should I take it up with Mr Frank when it is not him but you who
have stated here that AT and Debussy "corresponded on a number of
occasions." How many occasions exactly, and when?
Evidently you can't after all produce one iota of evidence and neither
could Frank, as it happens, since he - like the writer in the link
above - all too obviously copied down what he'd read somewhere else,
just like you've done, without bothering to check any facts. He can no
more produce the "correspondence" you refer to than anyone else, since
none exists nor has ever existed.
What we have here is a classic example of the Toscanini adulators,
having painted themselves into a corner with all that "Do As Written"
baloney, desperately scratching around to try and get their idol off
the "tampering with the score again" hook by cooking up this fiction
about "permissions" and "correspondences". I suppose Frank will be
telling us next that Toscanini got Tchaikovsky's "permission" to
rescore the Manfred Symphony from the very first bar, adding tam-tam
crashes here, cutting 100 bars there, having trumpets play the oboe
parts somewhere else, re-writing the string parts, and so on. If he
did I wouldn't put it past certain people to believe him.
There was correspondence between Toscanini and Debussy. Sachs quotes
from two letters written by Toscanini to Debussy in the  Pierpont
Morgan Library (if you'd like to look and perhaps check the ink to see
if it was forged.)  You may be correct about there not being a
specific letter in which Debussy approves the changes Toscanini made
in La Mer. However there a copy of the piano vocal score of Pelleas in
which Debussy wrote changes to the published score and that Debussy
sent to Toscanini - described on pages 78  and 79 of Sach's "Letters
of AT". I am an unabashed Toscanini idolator. You are obviously a
Toscaniniphobe. I'll leave it at that.
Don
Not wishing to throw gasoline on a fire, but it should be pointed out
that Sachs did not publish all of Toscanini's correspondence. To quote
the NY Times review:

"This collection is valuable in part because it is so unexpected.
Toscanini was a very private person; he declined interviews, never
cooperated on books about himself, refused all awards and honors. When
Mr. Sachs published his biography in 1978, he wrote that ''Toscanini's
letters . . . are relatively few and often uninformative.'' Little did
he know. First, two caches of love letters surfaced, one (to a married
Milanese woman, 30 years his junior, named Ada Mainardi) of nearly
1,000 items. Once Mr. Sachs went on a serious hunt, others appeared,
including many from the conductor's family.

"The result ranges chronologically from 1885 to 1956. There are gaps,
and naturally there is a greater density of material in later years
and during the Mainardi period in the 30's. Toscanini destroyed nearly
all letters in his possession; these are letters from him, not to him.
Yet undoubtedly more and more letters will come forth over time; those
to some of his soprano lovers, like Rosino Storchio or Geraldine
Farrar, would be particularly important. One almost wishes this was an
online edition, so that it could be steadily updated."
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B06E7D9143CF937A25755C0A9649C8B63

Consequently, Sachs may never have seen the Debussy letter, if it was
still in existence, or if he had, he may have felt that the discussion
of the score was too technical for inclusion in the collection which
was meant to illuminate Toscanini's life, not necessarily the details
of his score tinkerings. I might add the dictum that absence of
evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. While we have an
expectation that recording notes be accurate, we generally do not
require dissertation style annotation. Andrew Rose's primary
responsibility is to provide us with a good, listenable edition of the
concert, which, by example of his excerpt, he has done abundantly
well. Everything else is icing on the cake.
Bob Harper
2008-06-14 05:44:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gregorius
Post by 3M
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:38:22 -0700 (PDT), Kerrison
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Kerrison
Post by Kerrison
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Quote: "Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and
later corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including
asking for - and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust
aspects of the orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings
in order to improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner
voices. "
Could you please supply precise chapter and verse as to this
correspondence in the form of hard and fast evidence: that is to say,
the dates they corresponded, (day/month/year), and also exactly where
this actual correspondence can be seen or found. Additionally, if you
have photocopies in your own collection which you are citing here,
please let us know where you obtained them and from whom. Thanks.
I assume that Andrew excerpted that from "The Letters of Arturo
Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated by Harvey Sachs" (Alfred A.
Knopf, New York, 2002). I have just looked at my copy's index; there
are many, many entries about Toscanini and Debussy. I haven't had time
to look up all of them. Regardless, I remember reading those words by
Toscanini in Sachs's book.
I'm sure that Andrew Rose will reply on his own.
The book is of inestimable importance and should be purchased and
read by anyone interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini). I'll bet that you'd like Sachs's book a
lot.
Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I fear you assume incorrectly: there may indeed be many entries about
Toscanini and Debussy in Sach's book, which I've already consulted,
but none in respect of this alleged "permission" to tamper with La
Mer. Neither is there a single reference to it in any of the books on
Debussy, including the complete Debussy Letters as translated by Roger
Nichols (Faber & Faber 1987). This is why it will be especially
interesting to learn of the hard factual evidence, and the precise
location of the source material, that Mr Rose will doubtless supply.
Its also mentioned in this article but no source is given
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/lamer.html
Wagner Fan- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thanks for the link but again it's nothing more than one writer
rehashing what another writer has written in what really amounts to
second or third-hand hearsay. I'm still interested to know exactly
when this alleged "correspondence" took place and indeed in which
language it was conducted.
My own source is Mortimer H. Frank's "Arturo Toscanini The NBC Years",
"The relatively dry acoustics of studio 8H may have contributed to
Toscanini's obsession with clarity in La mer. Granted, he had always
sought it, gaining approval from Debussy to amend the score with
doublings and rebalancings so that everything would "sound"..." (p.153)
If this is factually incorrect I suggest you take it up with Mr. Frank.
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com-Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Why should I take it up with Mr Frank when it is not him but you who
have stated here that AT and Debussy "corresponded on a number of
occasions." How many occasions exactly, and when?
Evidently you can't after all produce one iota of evidence and neither
could Frank, as it happens, since he - like the writer in the link
above - all too obviously copied down what he'd read somewhere else,
just like you've done, without bothering to check any facts. He can no
more produce the "correspondence" you refer to than anyone else, since
none exists nor has ever existed.
What we have here is a classic example of the Toscanini adulators,
having painted themselves into a corner with all that "Do As Written"
baloney, desperately scratching around to try and get their idol off
the "tampering with the score again" hook by cooking up this fiction
about "permissions" and "correspondences". I suppose Frank will be
telling us next that Toscanini got Tchaikovsky's "permission" to
rescore the Manfred Symphony from the very first bar, adding tam-tam
crashes here, cutting 100 bars there, having trumpets play the oboe
parts somewhere else, re-writing the string parts, and so on. If he
did I wouldn't put it past certain people to believe him.
There was correspondence between Toscanini and Debussy. Sachs quotes
from two letters written by Toscanini to Debussy in the Pierpont
Morgan Library (if you'd like to look and perhaps check the ink to see
if it was forged.) You may be correct about there not being a
specific letter in which Debussy approves the changes Toscanini made
in La Mer. However there a copy of the piano vocal score of Pelleas in
which Debussy wrote changes to the published score and that Debussy
sent to Toscanini - described on pages 78 and 79 of Sach's "Letters
of AT". I am an unabashed Toscanini idolator. You are obviously a
Toscaniniphobe. I'll leave it at that.
Don
Not wishing to throw gasoline on a fire, but it should be pointed out
that Sachs did not publish all of Toscanini's correspondence. To quote
"This collection is valuable in part because it is so unexpected.
Toscanini was a very private person; he declined interviews, never
cooperated on books about himself, refused all awards and honors. When
Mr. Sachs published his biography in 1978, he wrote that ''Toscanini's
letters . . . are relatively few and often uninformative.'' Little did
he know. First, two caches of love letters surfaced, one (to a married
Milanese woman, 30 years his junior, named Ada Mainardi) of nearly
1,000 items. Once Mr. Sachs went on a serious hunt, others appeared,
including many from the conductor's family.
"The result ranges chronologically from 1885 to 1956. There are gaps,
and naturally there is a greater density of material in later years
and during the Mainardi period in the 30's. Toscanini destroyed nearly
all letters in his possession; these are letters from him, not to him.
Yet undoubtedly more and more letters will come forth over time; those
to some of his soprano lovers, like Rosino Storchio or Geraldine
Farrar, would be particularly important. One almost wishes this was an
online edition, so that it could be steadily updated."
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B06E7D9143CF937A25755C0A9649C8B63
Consequently, Sachs may never have seen the Debussy letter, if it was
still in existence, or if he had, he may have felt that the discussion
of the score was too technical for inclusion in the collection which
was meant to illuminate Toscanini's life, not necessarily the details
of his score tinkerings. I might add the dictum that absence of
evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. While we have an
expectation that recording notes be accurate, we generally do not
require dissertation style annotation. Andrew Rose's primary
responsibility is to provide us with a good, listenable edition of the
concert, which, by example of his excerpt, he has done abundantly
well. Everything else is icing on the cake.
The above ought to close this correspondence, but this being the
Internet I'll predict it won't :(

Bob Harper
Peter J
2008-06-14 08:32:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
The above ought to close this correspondence, but this being the
Internet I'll predict it won't :(
Bob Harper- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
...this being RMCR I'll certainly predict it won't; the gratuitous
vituperation here is......... words fail me.

Peter
Andrew Rose
2008-06-14 13:24:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gregorius
Andrew Rose's primary
responsibility is to provide us with a good, listenable edition of the
concert...
I was about to say this myself - I make no scholarship claims with
regard to Toscanini.

If there are questions or doubts I'll leave this to the music historians
and stick to the business of restoring and remastering the recordings
themselves.
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical

The online home of Classical Music: www.pristineclassical.com
D***@aol.com
2008-06-15 21:08:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Kerrison
Post by Kerrison
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Kerrison
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Quote: "Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and
later corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including
asking for - and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust
aspects of the orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings
in order to improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner
voices. "
Could you please supply precise chapter and verse as to this
correspondence in the form of hard and fast evidence: that is to say,
the dates they corresponded, (day/month/year), and also exactly where
this actual correspondence can be seen or found. Additionally, if you
have photocopies in your own collection which you are citing here,
please let us know where you obtained them and from whom. Thanks.
I assume that Andrew excerpted that from "The Letters of Arturo
Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated by Harvey Sachs" (Alfred A.
Knopf, New York, 2002). I have just looked at my copy's index; there
are many, many entries about Toscanini and Debussy. I haven't had time
to look up all of them. Regardless, I remember reading those words by
Toscanini in Sachs's book.
I'm sure that Andrew Rose will reply on his own.
The book is of inestimable importance and should be purchased and
read by anyone interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini). I'll bet that you'd like Sachs's book a
lot.
Don Tait- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I fear you assume incorrectly: there may indeed be many entries about
Toscanini and Debussy in Sach's book, which I've already consulted,
but none in respect of this alleged "permission" to tamper with La
Mer. Neither is there a single reference to it in any of the books on
Debussy, including the complete Debussy Letters as translated by Roger
Nichols (Faber & Faber 1987). This is why it will be especially
interesting to learn of the hard factual evidence, and the precise
location of the source material, that Mr Rose will doubtless supply.
Its also mentioned in this article but no source is given
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/lamer.html
Wagner Fan- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Thanks for the link but again it's nothing more than one writer
rehashing what another writer has written in what really amounts to
second or third-hand hearsay. I'm still interested to know exactly
when this alleged "correspondence" took place and indeed in which
language it was conducted.
My own source is Mortimer H. Frank's "Arturo Toscanini The NBC Years",
"The relatively dry acoustics of studio 8H may have contributed to
Toscanini's obsession with clarity in La mer. Granted, he had always
sought it, gaining approval from Debussy to amend the score with
doublings and rebalancings so that everything would "sound"..." (p.153)
If this is factually incorrect I suggest you take it up with Mr. Frank.
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com-Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Why should I take it up with Mr Frank when it is not him but you who
have stated here that AT and Debussy "corresponded on a number of
occasions." How many occasions exactly, and when?
Evidently you can't after all produce one iota of evidence and neither
could Frank, as it happens, since he - like the writer in the link
above - all too obviously copied down what he'd read somewhere else,
just like you've done, without bothering to check any facts. He can no
more produce the "correspondence" you refer to than anyone else, since
none exists nor has ever existed.
What we have here is a classic example of the Toscanini adulators,
having painted themselves into a corner with all that "Do As Written"
baloney, desperately scratching around to try and get their idol off
the "tampering with the score again" hook by cooking up this fiction
about "permissions" and "correspondences". I suppose Frank will be
telling us next that Toscanini got Tchaikovsky's "permission" to
rescore the Manfred Symphony from the very first bar, adding tam-tam
crashes here, cutting 100 bars there, having trumpets play the oboe
parts somewhere else, re-writing the string parts, and so on. If he
did I wouldn't put it past certain people to believe him.
Why do you hate Arturo Toscanini so? It would seem that you do.

Why do you resent Toscanini so intensely, and with such bitterness?

Why does his mere name seem to rouse you to such anger and hatred?

Why do you so hate anyone who writes in admiration of Toscanini?

You seem to be obsessed with anger, hatred, and resentment toward
Toscanini and anyone who has written in praise of him.

It would be nice to read your response.

And while you're at it, please tell us about Toscanini's having
gotten Tchaikovsky's "permission" to change the Manfred Symphony. That
never happened, and you know it. If you don't, you should shut your
sarcastic hate-twisted mouth/keyboard.

Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper
2008-06-15 23:42:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
***@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
typed in news:df33633a-fab6-4c15-b03d-
Post by D***@aol.com
Why do you hate Arturo Toscanini so? It would seem that you do.
Why do you resent Toscanini so intensely, and with such bitterness?
Why does his mere name seem to rouse you to such anger and hatred?
Why do you so hate anyone who writes in admiration of Toscanini?
You seem to be obsessed with anger, hatred, and resentment toward
Toscanini and anyone who has written in praise of him.
It would be nice to read your response.
I would like to see Joseph Horowitz (for example) answer these questions.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
D***@aol.com
2008-06-16 19:36:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:df33633a-fab6-4c15-b03d-
� Why do you hate Arturo Toscanini so? It would seem that you do.
� Why do you resent Toscanini so intensely, and with such bitterness?
� Why does his mere name seem to rouse you to such anger and hatred?
� Why do you so hate anyone who writes in admiration of Toscanini?
� You seem to be obsessed with anger, hatred, and resentment toward
Toscanini and anyone who has written in praise of him.
� It would be nice to read your response.
I would like to see Joseph Horowitz (for example) answer these questions.
So would I, Matthew. Thanks for your implied support of my probably
intemperate tirade.

Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper
2008-06-17 02:34:52 UTC
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***@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
typed in news:9c6a2f7b-8b84-4c67-9892-
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:df33633a-fab6-4c15-b03d-
Post by D***@aol.com
Why do you hate Arturo Toscanini so? It would seem that you do.
Why do you resent Toscanini so intensely, and with such bitterness?
Why does his mere name seem to rouse you to such anger and hatred?
Why do you so hate anyone who writes in admiration of Toscanini?
You seem to be obsessed with anger, hatred, and resentment toward
Toscanini and anyone who has written in praise of him.
It would be nice to read your response.
I would like to see Joseph Horowitz (for example) answer these questions.
So would I, Matthew. Thanks for your implied support of my probably
intemperate tirade.
While I might not apply it directly to Kerrison, I have often seen tirades
against Toscanini which appear (to me) to be unfair, almost as though in rage
at the thought that Furtwängler has been unfairly denied an inarguable path
to the throne of the utmost greatness.

I am of the opinion that Toscanini was a toweringly great conductor. I am
also of the opinion that Furtwängler was also a toweringly great conductor.
Can we just get along?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Bob Harper
2008-06-17 03:26:48 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:9c6a2f7b-8b84-4c67-9892-
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:df33633a-fab6-4c15-b03d-
Post by D***@aol.com
Why do you hate Arturo Toscanini so? It would seem that you do.
Why do you resent Toscanini so intensely, and with such bitterness?
Why does his mere name seem to rouse you to such anger and hatred?
Why do you so hate anyone who writes in admiration of Toscanini?
You seem to be obsessed with anger, hatred, and resentment toward
Toscanini and anyone who has written in praise of him.
It would be nice to read your response.
I would like to see Joseph Horowitz (for example) answer these questions.
So would I, Matthew. Thanks for your implied support of my probably
intemperate tirade.
While I might not apply it directly to Kerrison, I have often seen tirades
against Toscanini which appear (to me) to be unfair, almost as though in rage
at the thought that Furtwängler has been unfairly denied an inarguable path
to the throne of the utmost greatness.
I am of the opinion that Toscanini was a toweringly great conductor. I am
also of the opinion that Furtwängler was also a toweringly great conductor.
Can we just get along?
Sounds good to me, Rodney :)

Bob Harper
Bob Harper
2008-06-17 02:35:30 UTC
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Permalink
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:df33633a-fab6-4c15-b03d-
� Why do you hate Arturo Toscanini so? It would seem that you do.
� Why do you resent Toscanini so intensely, and with such bitterness?
� Why does his mere name seem to rouse you to such anger and hatred?
� Why do you so hate anyone who writes in admiration of Toscanini?
� You seem to be obsessed with anger, hatred, and resentment toward
Toscanini and anyone who has written in praise of him.
� It would be nice to read your response.
I would like to see Joseph Horowitz (for example) answer these questions.
So would I, Matthew. Thanks for your implied support of my probably
intemperate tirade.
Don Tait
Intemperate--maybe. Appropriate--absolutely, Don.

Bob Harper
Al Eisner
2008-06-16 23:01:19 UTC
Reply
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[snipped]
Post by D***@aol.com
Why do you hate Arturo Toscanini so? It would seem that you do.
Why do you resent Toscanini so intensely, and with such bitterness?
Why does his mere name seem to rouse you to such anger and hatred?
Why do you so hate anyone who writes in admiration of Toscanini?
You seem to be obsessed with anger, hatred, and resentment toward
Toscanini and anyone who has written in praise of him.
It would be nice to read your response.
And while you're at it, please tell us about Toscanini's having
gotten Tchaikovsky's "permission" to change the Manfred Symphony. That
never happened, and you know it. If you don't, you should shut your
sarcastic hate-twisted mouth/keyboard.
While most of these are reasonable questions, I think that if you carefully
reread what Kerrison said, you'll see that he did not claim the last (re.
Manfred). Rather, he was inventing this scenario in order to put words
in the mouth of one of those dreaded "Toscanini idolators".
--
Al Eisner
makropulos
2008-06-14 18:23:01 UTC
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Neither is there a single reference to it in any of the books on
Post by Kerrison
Debussy, including the complete Debussy Letters as translated by Roger
Nichols (Faber & Faber 1987). This is why it will be especially
interesting to learn of the hard factual evidence, and the precise
location of the source material, that Mr Rose will doubtless supply.
The edition by François Lesure translated by Roger Nichols of the
Debussy letters is nowhere near "complete". For something much more
complete you need this magnificent monster of a book:

Correspondance 1872/1918, de Claude Debussy. éditions Gallimard, 2005.
2,330 pages, 65 euros. Édition établie par François Lesure et Denis
Herlin, assistés pour les notes par Georges Liébert. I don't have it
here, or I'd check for letters to Toscanini, but it's readily
available.
David Mendes
2008-06-14 12:17:37 UTC
Reply
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On Jun 13, 11:08 pm, ***@aol.com wrote:
<…. "The Letters of Artur Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated
by Harvey Sachs" <(Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2002)…. The book is of
inestimable importance and should be purchased and read by anyone
interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini)…..
Don Tait
Another book which should be "... read by anyone interested in this
great musician..." is "Arturo Toscanini - Contemporary Recollections
of the Maestro" which contains reprints of two titles by B. H. Haggin:
"Conversations with Toscanini" and "The Toscanini Musicians Knew",
expanded and revised, (Da Capo, New York 1989).

In "Conversations", which was originally published by Doubleday in
1959, Haggin wrote as follows about his September 1942 visit with
Toscanini:

"I had brought with me a recent Victor recording of somebody else's
performance of Smetana's 'Die Moldau' - excellent sounding on my
phonograph - as a check on the sound of Toscanini's equipment; and I
asked Walter [Toscanini's son] to play this first. While I listened to
the sound Toscanini stood listening to the performance; and after a
few moments he said to Walter: "Get my 'Moldau". Turning to me, he
said; 'I put trumpet at the end because is not clear only with
trombones.' When Walter put the record of a broadcast of 'Die Moldau'
Toscanini stood not just listening but conducting the performance in
every detail; and at the end he directed my attention to the trumpets'
strengthening of the melodic line. From this I learned that although
Toscanini adhered strictly to the composer's text he didn't hesitate
to correct what seemed to him a miscalculation in orchestration that
kept something from being heard clearly. (It was surprising to learn,
some time later, of the many such changes in 'La Mer'. 'I tell Debussy
are many things not clear; and he say is all right to make changes.')"

As for the existence of correspondence between Toscanini and Debussy,
later in the book Haggin wrote that he had several times asked
Toscanini "... whether he had every played 'Gigues' and 'Rondes de
printemps', the companion pieces of 'Iberia', and each time, nodding
and smiling reminiscently, he answered: 'Ye-e-es, Debussy send me
score," ....".

One of the valuable aspects of the Da Capo reprint is that it includes
the additional statements of two musicians (Milton Katims and Frank
Miller) about Toscanini which were not included in previous editions.
Miller's statement was not included in the earlier editions. Haggin
reported that one musician (Miller) "... did record what he had to say
about Toscanini, but, when I sent him the monologue I made of it, [he]
decided not to allow it to be published, for reasons that are worth
telling. He wrote that his reverence and love for Toscanini had
already got him into difficulties with one conductor and he feared
that the published monologue would get him into difficulties with all
conductors - not because of the way he would play for them, but
because of what they knew he had said about Toscanini, and what this
might lead them to suspect he thought of them."

In the added monologue of Milton Katims, who reports on his many
discussions with Toscanini, Katims wrote the following:

"Many people believe that Toscanini played just what was on the
printed page - literally stuck to the letter of the score. Nothing
could be farther from the truth. In his constant search for the
composer's true intentions, he made changes in phrasing, in dynamics;
he even added instruments. The listener was never aware of these
changes unless he was following the performance with a score. Even
then he would have difficulty spotting them, because they were very
subtle and made with great musical intelligence and taste. Let me give
you one or two examples. there are four bars in the last movement of
the Brahms First Symphony where the composer includes trumpets,
trombones and timpani the first time this passage occurs (bars
166-179); but the second time (bars 360-363) when the music is in a
different key, Brahms omitted these instruments because of the
difficulty of changing the tuning of the timpani quickly (there were
no pedal timpani at that time). But no such obstacles exist today, and
Maestro did not hesitate to add these instruments. Another instance of
his genius for recreation, for improving on the composer's original
orchestration with taste and intelligence, is to be found at the
beginning of Tchaikovsky's 'Manfred'. He bolstered the sound of the
clarinets and bassoons by adding muted horns in unison with them,
achieving a darker sound with more substance. I believe the composers
would have approved heartily. The ones who were alive in Toscanini's
time certainly did - Debussy, for example, gave his permission to
change some things in 'La Mer'.

Changes like these enabled Toscanini to achieve what the composer
hadn't fully realized. It also enabled him to take a piece that wasn't
very good, really, and make it seem important. It enabled him to make
us feel - and this, for me, was the greatest facet of his conducting -
that no matter how many times we had performed the music at hand (be
it the Schubert 'Unfinished', the Dvorak 'New World', or the Beethoven
Fifth) that 'this' was really the first performance, 'this' was the
first time we were really playing it - the first time we were really
'hearing' it. There was always the freshness, the spontaneity of a
first performance. That was how he approached every score he
conducted. He was constantly restudying it, no matter how many times
he had performed it.... Unquestionably, this was why his performances
were vividly alive, not merely another reading. this was why each
piece of music he touched appeared to be revealing its joys and
ownders for the first time, as if it was being created at the moment
of performance. This was the greatest part of the genius of
Toscanini!"

I hope the above is of interest.

Regards from over here,
David Mendes




"
Peter J
2008-06-14 12:30:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
<…. "The Letters of Artur  Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated
by Harvey Sachs" <(Alfred A.  Knopf, New York, 2002)….  The book is of
inestimable importance and should be purchased and read by anyone
interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini)…..
  Don Tait
Another book which should be "... read by anyone interested in this
snip in a major way
I hope the above is of interest.
Regards from over here,
David Mendes
Mr Mendes

Coincidentally I had just logged in after you posted the above. Many
thanks for such an interesting read. (And no vituperation!)

I, too, hope this clears up the matter completely.

All good wishes

Peter
Matthew B. Tepper
2008-06-14 14:15:42 UTC
Reply
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David Mendes <***@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:3b22c508-1d62-4ad2-9729-
***@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

[scholarship amply demonstrated]
Post by David Mendes
I hope the above is of interest.
It certainly is.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
3m
2008-06-14 17:36:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 05:17:37 -0700 (PDT), David Mendes
<…. "The Letters of Artur Toscanini compiled, edited, and translated
by Harvey Sachs" <(Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2002)…. The book is of
inestimable importance and should be purchased and read by anyone
interested in this great musician and complicated, even
tormented, man (Toscanini)…..
Don Tait
Another book which should be "... read by anyone interested in this
great musician..." is "Arturo Toscanini - Contemporary Recollections
"Conversations with Toscanini" and "The Toscanini Musicians Knew",
expanded and revised, (Da Capo, New York 1989).
<snipped pertinent and fascinating quotes>
I hope the above is of interest.
Regards from over here,
David Mendes
Thanks for posting these. I've read the books you mention (minus the
Miller and Katims interviews) and agree fully with your observations.
My only reservations relate to the notion that not everyone agrees
that Toscanini's orchestration alterations were applied with good
taste and in the spirit of the composer's intentions. I couldn't
recognize any of these if you thumped me over the head with them, but
I do recognize that AT's performances were vastly different from those
of many other conductors, and for the most part were also vastly more
appealing to me.
Best Wishes,
Don
a***@hotmail.com
2008-06-17 07:49:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Jun 14, 2:17 am, David Mendes <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

...>'I tell Debussy are many things not clear.....

But isn't the music of Debussy supposed to be about ambiguity,
indistinctness, and suggestion?
a***@hotmail.com
2008-06-17 07:57:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
...>'I tell Debussy are many things not clear.....
But isn't the music of Debussy supposed to be about ambiguity,
indistinctness, and suggestion?
Now that I think of it, I think I prefer the Debussy recordings of
Toscanini's protoge Cantelli. Cantelli has a much more fluid light
quality which I feel is closer to the French aesthetic.

Although I feel that nobody can beat Monteux, who like Toscanini, also
personally knew Debussy. D. even let M. conduct the world premiere
some of his works.
Matthew B. Tepper
2008-06-14 01:26:05 UTC
Reply
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Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
1940 and -- what, 1953? I'm not sure here.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
ansermetniac
2008-06-14 01:49:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 20:26:05 -0500, "Matthew B. Tepper"
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Andrew Rose
Post by Andrew Rose
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert
...apart from the two he did with the NBC SO...
(whoops!)
1940 and -- what, 1953? I'm not sure here.
1945 and 1948 too

Abbedd
Matthew B. Tepper
2008-06-14 01:26:05 UTC
Reply
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Post by Andrew Rose
2. La Damoiselle Elue (22:03)
Soloists: Bidu Sayao (soprano), Rose Bampton (contralto)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
The only disc issue of this item known to me was an LP box (with a lavender
cover!) from the early '70s entitled "O Rouxinol Brasileiro," which I believe
means "The Brazilian Nightingale," a good description of Sayão.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
a***@hotmail.com
2008-06-17 07:51:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Andrew Rose
2. La Damoiselle Elue (22:03)
Soloists: Bidu Sayao (soprano), Rose Bampton (contralto)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
The only disc issue of this item known to me was an LP box (with a lavender
cover!) from the early '70s entitled "O Rouxinol Brasileiro," which I believe
means "The Brazilian Nightingale," a good description of Sayão.
--
Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page --http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page ---http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Wasn't that box set supposed to have included her earliest recordings?
Matthew B. Tepper
2008-06-17 15:31:41 UTC
Reply
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Post by a***@hotmail.com
following letters to be typed
Post by Andrew Rose
2. La Damoiselle Elue (22:03)
Soloists: Bidu Sayao (soprano), Rose Bampton (contralto)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
The only disc issue of this item known to me was an LP box (with a
lavender cover!) from the early '70s entitled "O Rouxinol Brasileiro,"
which I believe means "The Brazilian Nightingale," a good description
of Sayão.
Wasn't that box set supposed to have included her earliest recordings?
I don't recall what else was on it apart from this item, and some excerpts
from live performances with the San Francisco Opera.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Matthew B. Tepper
2008-06-18 03:18:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
following letters to be typed
Post by Andrew Rose
2. La Damoiselle Elue (22:03)
Soloists: Bidu Sayao (soprano), Rose Bampton (contralto)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
The only disc issue of this item known to me was an LP box (with a
lavender cover!) from the early '70s entitled "O Rouxinol Brasileiro,"
which I believe means "The Brazilian Nightingale," a good description
of Sayão.
Wasn't that box set supposed to have included her earliest recordings?
I've now been able to dig this item out of the box it had been inhabiting in
the second bedroom. Only the *spine* of the box is lavender; the front of
the box is a sepia portrait of the soprano. Herewith the contents (and I've
lost patience with trying to figure out all the diacriticals in Brazilian
Portugese, a language I find beautiful, but cannot speak nor understand):

Operatic Archives
OPA 1043-44
O Rouxinol Brasileiro

1043A:

Debussy, "La demoiselle élue," Rose Bampton, Toscanini/[NYP-SO] and women's
chorus, 16 April 1936

Debussy, "L'enfant prodigue," two excerpts: "L'année en vain," "Azrael!
Pourqoi mas-tu quittée?", no other performers given, 27 March 1950

1043B:

Gomez [sic], "Il Guarany": "Gentil il cuore," "C'era un volta"

Costa:
"Canto da saudade"
"Cysnes"
Serenata "O Luar da minha terra"

Netto:
"Cancao da felicidade"
"Cantiga"

Braga (arr.):
"A casinha Paquenina"

1044A:

Verdi, "Rigoletto": "Tutte le feste," "Piangi, piangia, fanciulla," with
Giuseppe Valdengo, 6 September 1948

Verdi, "La traviata": "Addio del passato" through "Ah! Gran Dio," with Jan
Peerce, 31 October 1949

Puccini, "Manon Lescaut": "In quelle trine morbide," 26 February 1951

Mascagni, "L'amico Fritz": "Son pochi fiori," 17 September 1951

Thomas, "Mignon": "Connais-tu le pays?", 6 January 1953

1044B:

Ciampi, "Gli Tre Cicicbei Ridicoli": "Tre giorni son che Nina"

Martini, "Plaisir d'Amour"

Traetta, "Tantin, Tantino"

Crist, "C'est mon ami"

Saint-Saëns, "Le cygne"

Chopin, "Tristesse"

Rimsky-Korsakov, "Aimant la rose, le rossignol"

Charnley, "Roving in the Dew"

Niles, "Go way from my window"

Charles, "When I Have Sung My Songs"
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
a***@hotmail.com
2008-06-18 09:42:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by a***@hotmail.com
following letters to be typed
Post by Andrew Rose
2. La Damoiselle Elue (22:03)
Soloists: Bidu Sayao (soprano), Rose Bampton (contralto)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
The only disc issue of this item known to me was an LP box (with a
lavender cover!) from the early '70s entitled "O Rouxinol Brasileiro,"
which I believe means "The Brazilian Nightingale," a good description
of Sayão.
Wasn't that box set supposed to have included her earliest recordings?
I've now been able to dig this item out of the box it had been inhabiting in
the second bedroom.  Only the *spine* of the box is lavender; the front of
the box is a sepia portrait of the soprano.  Herewith the contents (and I've
lost patience with trying to figure out all the diacriticals in Brazilian
Operatic Archives
OPA 1043-44
O Rouxinol Brasileiro
Debussy, "La demoiselle élue," Rose Bampton, Toscanini/[NYP-SO] and women's
chorus, 16 April 1936
Debussy, "L'enfant prodigue," two excerpts: "L'année en vain," "Azrael!
Pourqoi mas-tu quittée?", no other performers given, 27 March 1950
Gomez [sic], "Il Guarany": "Gentil il cuore," "C'era un volta"
"Canto da saudade"
"Cysnes"
Serenata "O Luar da minha terra"
"Cancao da felicidade"
"Cantiga"
"A casinha Paquenina"
Verdi, "Rigoletto": "Tutte le feste," "Piangi, piangia, fanciulla," with
Giuseppe Valdengo, 6 September 1948
Verdi, "La traviata": "Addio del passato" through "Ah! Gran Dio," with Jan
Peerce, 31 October 1949
Puccini, "Manon Lescaut": "In quelle trine morbide," 26 February 1951
Mascagni, "L'amico Fritz": "Son pochi fiori," 17 September 1951
Thomas, "Mignon": "Connais-tu le pays?", 6 January 1953
Ciampi, "Gli Tre Cicicbei Ridicoli": "Tre giorni son che Nina"
Martini, "Plaisir d'Amour"
Traetta, "Tantin, Tantino"
Crist, "C'est mon ami"
Saint-Saëns, "Le cygne"
Chopin, "Tristesse"
Rimsky-Korsakov, "Aimant la rose, le rossignol"
Charnley, "Roving in the Dew"
Niles, "Go way from my window"
Charles, "When I Have Sung My Songs"
--
Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page --http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page ---http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Thanks a lot. I didn't mean to sound just sooooooo insistent.

Concerning those Brazilian songs, I think they match what is on the
following cd:

http://www.vaimusic.com/CD/1171.htm
Matthew B. Tepper
2008-06-18 14:42:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
"***@hotmail.com" <***@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:c3b6c8f6-d63a-4032-9f4b-
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Thanks a lot. I didn't mean to sound just sooooooo insistent.
It was worth doing, for the record so to speak.
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Concerning those Brazilian songs, I think they match what is on the
http://www.vaimusic.com/CD/1171.htm
You may be right. Now I'll have to compare these with the contents of an RCA
Camden LP I have lying around somewhere (which, actually, I've already made
into WAV files).
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Kip Williams
2008-06-18 13:12:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I've now been able to dig this item out of the box it had been inhabiting in
the second bedroom. Only the *spine* of the box is lavender; the front of
the box is a sepia portrait of the soprano. Herewith the contents (and I've
lost patience with trying to figure out all the diacriticals in Brazilian
Operatic Archives
OPA 1043-44
O Rouxinol Brasileiro
...
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Saint-Saëns, "Le cygne"
Chopin, "Tristesse"
Does she do these two as vocalises, or has somebody fitted them out with
words? (Please, Lord, don't let it be some Manhattan Transfer-y pap like
"This e-tude Tris-tesse / that Chopin wrote / gives such sad-NESS / in
every golden note...")

Kip W
Matthew B. Tepper
2008-06-18 14:42:36 UTC
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Post by Kip Williams
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I've now been able to dig this item out of the box it had been inhabiting
in the second bedroom. Only the *spine* of the box is lavender; the front
of the box is a sepia portrait of the soprano. Herewith the contents (and
I've lost patience with trying to figure out all the diacriticals in
Brazilian Portugese, a language I find beautiful, but cannot speak nor
Operatic Archives
OPA 1043-44
O Rouxinol Brasileiro
...
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Saint-Saëns, "Le cygne"
Chopin, "Tristesse"
Does she do these two as vocalises, or has somebody fitted them out with
words? (Please, Lord, don't let it be some Manhattan Transfer-y pap like
"This e-tude Tris-tesse / that Chopin wrote / gives such sad-NESS / in
every golden note...")
I don't recall; I'll have to check sometime.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
a***@hotmail.com
2008-06-19 03:30:31 UTC
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Post by Kip Williams
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I've now been able to dig this item out of the box it had been inhabiting in
the second bedroom.  Only the *spine* of the box is lavender; the front of
the box is a sepia portrait of the soprano.  Herewith the contents (and I've
lost patience with trying to figure out all the diacriticals in Brazilian
Operatic Archives
OPA 1043-44
O Rouxinol Brasileiro
...
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Saint-Saëns, "Le cygne"
Chopin, "Tristesse"
Does she do these two as vocalises, or has somebody fitted them out with
words? (Please, Lord, don't let it be some Manhattan Transfer-y pap like
"This e-tude Tris-tesse / that Chopin wrote / gives such sad-NESS / in
every golden note...")
Kip W
Concerning "Tristesse", I think it appeared in the 1970's(?) on an
Odyssey lp. The lyrics Sayao sang were in French.
g***@gmail.com
2020-06-24 04:17:05 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by a***@hotmail.com
following letters to be typed
Post by Andrew Rose
2. La Damoiselle Elue (22:03)
Soloists: Bidu Sayao (soprano), Rose Bampton (contralto)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
The only disc issue of this item known to me was an LP box (with a
lavender cover!) from the early '70s entitled "O Rouxinol Brasileiro,"
which I believe means "The Brazilian Nightingale," a good description
of Sayão.
Wasn't that box set supposed to have included her earliest recordings?
I've now been able to dig this item out of the box it had been inhabiting in
the second bedroom. Only the *spine* of the box is lavender; the front of
the box is a sepia portrait of the soprano. Herewith the contents (and I've
lost patience with trying to figure out all the diacriticals in Brazilian
Operatic Archives
OPA 1043-44
O Rouxinol Brasileiro
Debussy, "La demoiselle élue," Rose Bampton, Toscanini/[NYP-SO] and women's
chorus, 16 April 1936
Debussy, "L'enfant prodigue," two excerpts: "L'année en vain," "Azrael!
Pourqoi mas-tu quittée?", no other performers given, 27 March 1950
Gomez [sic], "Il Guarany": "Gentil il cuore," "C'era un volta"
"Canto da saudade"
"Cysnes"
Serenata "O Luar da minha terra"
"Cancao da felicidade"
"Cantiga"
"A casinha Paquenina"
Verdi, "Rigoletto": "Tutte le feste," "Piangi, piangia, fanciulla," with
Giuseppe Valdengo, 6 September 1948
Verdi, "La traviata": "Addio del passato" through "Ah! Gran Dio," with Jan
Peerce, 31 October 1949
Puccini, "Manon Lescaut": "In quelle trine morbide," 26 February 1951
Mascagni, "L'amico Fritz": "Son pochi fiori," 17 September 1951
Thomas, "Mignon": "Connais-tu le pays?", 6 January 1953
Ciampi, "Gli Tre Cicicbei Ridicoli": "Tre giorni son che Nina"
Martini, "Plaisir d'Amour"
Traetta, "Tantin, Tantino"
Crist, "C'est mon ami"
Saint-Saëns, "Le cygne"
Chopin, "Tristesse"
Rimsky-Korsakov, "Aimant la rose, le rossignol"
Charnley, "Roving in the Dew"
Niles, "Go way from my window"
Charles, "When I Have Sung My Songs"
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Doesn't this cd contain some of the tracks sung in Portuguese?:

http://www.vaimusic.com/CD/1171.htm
a***@hotmail.com
2008-06-17 07:04:58 UTC
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Post by Andrew Rose
I use the word 'properly' advisedly - this AM broadcast is never going
to be marvellous sonically - but having heard the appalling version
posted here a couple of weeks ago as a spoiler to this release you'll
maybe agree with me...
Toscanini - All-Debussy Concert, 1936
New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra
conducted by Arturo Toscanini
Broadcast from Carnegie Hall, New York, 19th April 1936
Total Duration: 1hr 50:43
http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Orchestral/PASC113.php
Part One
1. Radio Introduction (0:44)
Le Martyre de Saint Sebastien Act 1: La Cour De Lys (excerpts)
2. 1. Prélude (6:28)
3. 2. Danse Extatique de Sébastien (6:38)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
4. Prélude à l'Après-midi d'un Faune (9:52)
Nocturnes
5. 1. Nuages (6:31)
6. 2. Fêtes (6:34)
Images: 2. Ibèria
7. 1. Par les rues et par les chemins (7:14)
8. 2. Les parfums de la nuit (7:19)
9. 3. Le matin d'un jour de fête (5:05)
Part Two
1. Introductions to Part Two (4:58)
2. La Damoiselle Elue (22:03)
Soloists: Bidu Sayao (soprano), Rose Bampton (contralto)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
La Mer
3. 1. De l'aube à midi sur la mer (8:34)
4. 2. Jeux de vagues (6:23)
5. 3. Dialogue du vent et de la mer (9:53)
6. Closing announcements (2:27)
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert - in 1936, his
final season with the Philharmonic-Symphony Society of New York.
Didn't he also have an all-Debussy concert in April 1940 which
included Jarmila Novotna which was one of her earliest U.S.
performances after she left Europe? I have a vague recollection of
seeing a 3(?)-lp box set of that 1940 all-Debussy concert:

http://www.toscaninionline.com/disco10.htm
chez_toscanini
2008-06-17 07:41:58 UTC
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Yes and Naxos issued the All-Debussy program with Novotna and NBC.
Mr.Rose has been informed about this and has put some slight
corrections in his page while the pdf to be added as cover of an
eventual box has not be updated: it is not clear that the presented
issue was the only performance with the New York Phyl as stated
correctly on the web page.
E.
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Post by Andrew Rose
I use the word 'properly' advisedly - this AM broadcast is never going
to be marvellous sonically - but having heard the appalling version
posted here a couple of weeks ago as a spoiler to this release you'll
maybe agree with me...
Toscanini - All-Debussy Concert, 1936
New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra
conducted by Arturo Toscanini
Broadcast from Carnegie Hall, New York, 19th April 1936
Total Duration: 1hr 50:43
http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Orchestral/PASC113.php
Part One
1. Radio Introduction (0:44)
Le Martyre de Saint Sebastien Act 1: La Cour De Lys (excerpts)
2. 1. Prélude (6:28)
3. 2. Danse Extatique de Sébastien (6:38)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
4. Prélude à l'Après-midi d'un Faune (9:52)
Nocturnes
5. 1. Nuages (6:31)
6. 2. Fêtes (6:34)
Images: 2. Ibèria
7. 1. Par les rues et par les chemins (7:14)
8. 2. Les parfums de la nuit (7:19)
9. 3. Le matin d'un jour de fête (5:05)
Part Two
1. Introductions to Part Two (4:58)
2. La Damoiselle Elue (22:03)
Soloists: Bidu Sayao (soprano), Rose Bampton (contralto)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
La Mer
3. 1. De l'aube à midi sur la mer (8:34)
4. 2. Jeux de vagues (6:23)
5. 3. Dialogue du vent et de la mer (9:53)
6. Closing announcements (2:27)
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert - in 1936, his
final season with the Philharmonic-Symphony Society of New York.
Didn't he also have an all-Debussy concert in April 1940 which
included Jarmila Novotna which was one of her earliest U.S.
performances after she left Europe?  I have a vague recollection of
http://www.toscaninionline.com/disco10.htm
Matthew B. Tepper
2008-06-17 15:31:41 UTC
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"***@hotmail.com" <***@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:7c5988bb-84f2-4a86-a068-
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Didn't he also have an all-Debussy concert in April 1940 which
included Jarmila Novotna which was one of her earliest U.S.
performances after she left Europe? I have a vague recollection of
http://www.toscaninionline.com/disco10.htm
There was a 2-LP set, c. 1974, on Olympic/Arturo Toscanini Society. (This
label was an odd team-up between Everest Records and Clyde Key's Texas-based
Arturo Toscanini Society. They also issued the 1939 Beethoven cycle, and
perhaps other items I can't recall right now.)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Jeff
2008-06-18 15:36:16 UTC
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
There was a 2-LP set, c. 1974, on Olympic/Arturo Toscanini Society. (This
label was an odd team-up between Everest Records and Clyde Key's Texas-based
Arturo Toscanini Society. They also issued the 1939 Beethoven cycle, and
perhaps other items I can't recall right now.)
I have the Beethoven & Debussy LP sets, as well as the 1938 Verdi
Requiem with the BBC. I don't remember
any others. Although the sonics were not optimal, the sets did include
handsome program notes, including
reproductions of some of the original programs.
Interestingly, some rehearsal sequences for the 1940 Debussy concert
were recorded, and were played for
a very appreciative audience at last year's Toscanini memorial
presentation at the New York Public Library
by the curator of the Toscanini collection, Seth Winner.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Marcia Davenport had the
some original off-the-air recordings of the
New York Philharmonic made for herself - can anyone elaborate on this?
- J
Matthew B. Tepper
2008-06-19 01:13:30 UTC
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Jeff <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:dee589b4-228c-4a95-a8e8-
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
There was a 2-LP set, c. 1974, on Olympic/Arturo Toscanini Society.
(This label was an odd team-up between Everest Records and Clyde Key's
Texas-based Arturo Toscanini Society. They also issued the 1939
Beethoven cycle, and perhaps other items I can't recall right now.)
I have the Beethoven & Debussy LP sets, as well as the 1938 Verdi Requiem
with the BBC.
Yes! That's it!
I don't remember any others. Although the sonics were not optimal, the
sets did include handsome program notes, including reproductions of some
of the original programs. Interestingly, some rehearsal sequences for
the 1940 Debussy concert were recorded, and were played for a very
appreciative audience at last year's Toscanini memorial presentation at
the New York Public Library by the curator of the Toscanini collection,
Seth Winner.
The Naxos issue of this concert included half an hour of rehearsal for the
"Marche écossaise," ten minutes for "Fêtes" and a quarter-hour for
"Nuages." Guild's issue of the 14 February 1953 all-Debussy concert has an
hour and a half of "La mer" rehearsal, too much of a good thing perhaps.

Mr. Winner's presentation, which also included a bit of the Scherzo from
the Bruckner 7th (thus allowing another means of authenticating the
Japanese CDR that broke it to the world), was available at one time in its
entirety at the restricted country club called Operashare.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Marcia Davenport had the
some original off-the-air recordings of the New York Philharmonic made
for herself - can anyone elaborate on this?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
g***@gmail.com
2020-06-23 04:01:56 UTC
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Post by Andrew Rose
I use the word 'properly' advisedly - this AM broadcast is never going
to be marvellous sonically - but having heard the appalling version
posted here a couple of weeks ago as a spoiler to this release you'll
maybe agree with me...
Toscanini - All-Debussy Concert, 1936
New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra
conducted by Arturo Toscanini
Broadcast from Carnegie Hall, New York, 19th April 1936
Total Duration: 1hr 50:43
http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Orchestral/PASC113.php
Part One
1. Radio Introduction (0:44)
Le Martyre de Saint Sebastien Act 1: La Cour De Lys (excerpts)
2. 1. Prélude (6:28)
3. 2. Danse Extatique de Sébastien (6:38)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
4. Prélude à l'Après-midi d'un Faune (9:52)
Nocturnes
5. 1. Nuages (6:31)
6. 2. Fêtes (6:34)
Images: 2. Ibèria
7. 1. Par les rues et par les chemins (7:14)
8. 2. Les parfums de la nuit (7:19)
9. 3. Le matin d'un jour de fête (5:05)
Part Two
1. Introductions to Part Two (4:58)
2. La Damoiselle Elue (22:03)
Soloists: Bidu Sayao (soprano), Rose Bampton (contralto)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
La Mer
3. 1. De l'aube à midi sur la mer (8:34)
4. 2. Jeux de vagues (6:23)
5. 3. Dialogue du vent et de la mer (9:53)
6. Closing announcements (2:27)
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert - in 1936, his
final season with the Philharmonic-Symphony Society of New York. There
were three performances - on 16th, 17th and 19th April, 1936 - the
latter being the concert broadcast and presented here.
What about this 1940 performance?:

https://www.amazon.com/Toscanini-Conducts-Debussy-Remastered-Historical/dp/B004H2STAA/ref=sr_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=debussy+toscanini&qid=1592884712&sr=8-8
g***@gmail.com
2020-06-26 15:27:22 UTC
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Post by Andrew Rose
I use the word 'properly' advisedly - this AM broadcast is never going
to be marvellous sonically - but having heard the appalling version
posted here a couple of weeks ago as a spoiler to this release you'll
maybe agree with me...
Toscanini - All-Debussy Concert, 1936
New York Philharmonic-Symphony Orchestra
conducted by Arturo Toscanini
Broadcast from Carnegie Hall, New York, 19th April 1936
Total Duration: 1hr 50:43
http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Orchestral/PASC113.php
Part One
1. Radio Introduction (0:44)
Le Martyre de Saint Sebastien Act 1: La Cour De Lys (excerpts)
2. 1. Prélude (6:28)
3. 2. Danse Extatique de Sébastien (6:38)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
4. Prélude à l'Après-midi d'un Faune (9:52)
Nocturnes
5. 1. Nuages (6:31)
6. 2. Fêtes (6:34)
Images: 2. Ibèria
7. 1. Par les rues et par les chemins (7:14)
8. 2. Les parfums de la nuit (7:19)
9. 3. Le matin d'un jour de fête (5:05)
Part Two
1. Introductions to Part Two (4:58)
2. La Damoiselle Elue (22:03)
Soloists: Bidu Sayao (soprano), Rose Bampton (contralto)
with Women's Chorus of the Schola Cantorum
La Mer
3. 1. De l'aube à midi sur la mer (8:34)
4. 2. Jeux de vagues (6:23)
5. 3. Dialogue du vent et de la mer (9:53)
6. Closing announcements (2:27)
Only once did Toscanini programme an all-Debussy concert - in 1936, his
final season with the Philharmonic-Symphony Society of New York. There
were three performances - on 16th, 17th and 19th April, 1936 - the
latter being the concert broadcast and presented here.
However, Debussy was a firm favourite of Toscanini's, and he conducted
the Italian première of Pelléas et Mélisande in 1908. He'd come to the
"I hardly knew the name of [a] composer who has won all your
sympathy: the Frenchman Debussy with his Pelléas and Mélisande.... His
art overturns everything that has been done until now. He doesn't have
[Richard] Strauss's technique, but he is a great genius, more elegant
and undoubtedly more daring. On first venturing upon him, you are
completely disoriented, but once you have begun to converse a little
more freely with his language - and that of his inspirer Maeterlinck -
you end up being fascinated. Thinking of the theatre of Maeterlinck's
characters, I can confirm my opinion that Debussy's music is the
fulfillment of that art. However, our public today is not yet mature to
sense this, let alone accept it."
Toscanini met Debussy for the first time in Paris in 1910, and later
corresponded with him on a number of occasions - including asking for -
and gaining - permission from the composer to adjust aspects of the
orchestration in La Mer with doublings and rebalancings in order to
improve the clarity of sound, particularly in the inner voices.
He continued to programme Debussy's music regularly throughout his later
years with the NBC Symphony Orchestra, but never again was the listening
public treated to a full-length concert such as this, where Toscanini
was able to explore both very early and very late compositions, leading
his audience on a musical journey through some of the composer's very
finest orchestral output.
Notes on the remastering: At least two versions of this recording have
circulated amongst collectors over the years, and parts of it surfaced
some time back on a Music and Arts CD release. Until now, however, no
commercial release has ever taken place, quite possibly as a result of
the poor quality of the original recordings, made onto acetate 78rpm
discs by recording directly off-air from the AM concert broadcast.
This has a number of implications, some of which are more readily
overcome than others. The clicks and crackles of the disc surface, and a
good deal of surface noise, have been dealt with. A heavy hum has also
been removed. Pitch instabilities and variations have been smoothed out.
The tonal balance has been improved considerably.
What cannot be "fixed" is the narrow frequency range captured from the
broadcast - there simply isn't anything else above the highest
frequencies heard here to be had. Likewise the limited dynamic range,
and tendency to slight overload distortion during some loud passages, is
indelibly branded onto this recording, and one can only attempt to make
the best of this type of problem. There were also a handful of minor
dropouts and moments of interferenceand other noises which proved beyond
repair.
Overall, however, I judge this historic recording to be a more than
worthwhile release, as it gives us a unique chance to witness the full
sweep of Toscanini's Debussy at a time when he was at the peak of his
powers. There is indeed much to be enjoyed here.
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music: www.pristineclassical.com
(On Youtube):

Debussy - La Damoiselle élue - Bidú Sayão, Rose Bampton - Toscanini (1936)
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