Discussion:
Is Classical Music Dead?
(too old to reply)
pgaron
2014-01-30 20:58:21 UTC
Permalink
Washington Post classical music critic Anne Midgette has an interesting article on the subject:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style/wp/2014/01/30/classical-music-dead-or-alive/
laraine
2014-01-30 21:32:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by pgaron
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style/wp/2014/01/30/classical-music-dead-or-alive/
Last nite saw Hilary Hahn have a chat with Tavis Smiley about her new album featuring new short works by contemporary composers.

Just before that was Billy Joel on the Charlie Rose show playing a bit of a pop version of a little of Beethoven's 7th symphony (as well as some of his own pieces).

Think that's a slightly hopeful sign if it's on popular TV (or at least PBS).

C.
Matthew B. Tepper
2014-02-02 18:48:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by laraine
Post by pgaron
Washington Post classical music critic Anne Midgette has an interesting
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style/wp/2014/01/30/classical-music-d
ead-or-alive/
Last nite saw Hilary Hahn have a chat with Tavis Smiley about her new
album featuring new short works by contemporary composers.
Just before that was Billy Joel on the Charlie Rose show playing a bit
of a pop version of a little of Beethoven's 7th symphony (as well as
some of his own pieces).
Think that's a slightly hopeful sign if it's on popular TV (or at least PBS).
Well, the first one is a hopeful sign. I strongly dislike the concept of
classical music having to have pop musicians as its gatekeepers. Look at
the Grammy Awards telecasts, where classical musicians are permitted to
perform only as sidemen to pop or rock ones.

Classical musicians do not need chaperones from the pop world.

Now, Renée Fleming singing the national anthem at that sports thingie, that
might count as progress of a sort. At least she will remember the words
and sing it in tune, and also presumably in 3/4. Most of all, unlike the
much-vaunted Kelly Clarkson, she won't have to gulp for breath between
"we" and "hailed"!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
laraine
2014-02-04 20:31:07 UTC
Permalink
laraine appears to have caused the following letters
Post by laraine
Post by pgaron
Washington Post classical music critic Anne Midgette has an interesting
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style/wp/2014/01/30/classical-music-d
ead-or-alive/
Post by laraine
Last nite saw Hilary Hahn have a chat with Tavis Smiley about her new
album featuring new short works by contemporary composers.
Just before that was Billy Joel on the Charlie Rose show playing a bit
of a pop version of a little of Beethoven's 7th symphony (as well as
some of his own pieces).
Think that's a slightly hopeful sign if it's on popular TV (or at least PBS).
Well, the first one is a hopeful sign. I strongly dislike the concept of
classical music having to have pop musicians as its gatekeepers. Look at
the Grammy Awards telecasts, where classical musicians are permitted to
perform only as sidemen to pop or rock ones.
Classical musicians do not need chaperones from the pop world.
Now I think Charlie Rose does have classical musicians as guests... recently Anne-Sophie Mutter.

But this with Billy Joel was more spontaneous than planned teaching, just the first thing he thought of playing, and it sounded like a very reasonable transcription. He did say he was into all kinds of genres of music, and he is an (acoustic) pianist, so why not classical.

(That was an unusual show --Scott Stossel on anxiety and panic attacks, Doctorow and Andrew's Brain, then Billy Joel at the very end maybe to lighten things up.)
Now, Renée Fleming singing the national anthem at that sports thingie, that
might count as progress of a sort. At least she will remember the words
and sing it in tune, and also presumably in 3/4. Most of all, unlike the
much-vaunted Kelly Clarkson, she won't have to gulp for breath between
"we" and "hailed"!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
I do like the slight improv of the pop singers though.

C.
Steve de Mena
2014-02-05 01:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Well, the first one is a hopeful sign. I strongly dislike the concept of
classical music having to have pop musicians as its gatekeepers. Look at
the Grammy Awards telecasts, where classical musicians are permitted to
perform only as sidemen to pop or rock ones.
If you were producing the Grammy Awards you would actual feature more
classical music? How could you justify that?

Steve
Matthew B. Tepper
2014-02-05 05:03:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve de Mena
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Well, the first one is a hopeful sign. I strongly dislike the concept of
classical music having to have pop musicians as its gatekeepers. Look at
the Grammy Awards telecasts, where classical musicians are permitted to
perform only as sidemen to pop or rock ones.
If you were producing the Grammy Awards you would actual feature more
classical music? How could you justify that?
One item, four minutes long max, just before the Album of the Year award.

The way it used to be.

Justification? Classical music is 2-3% of the market, not 0%.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Bozo
2014-01-30 22:34:15 UTC
Permalink
As she says :

" I even go so far as to question whether the goal should be to keep all of our old institutions alive. In the business world, there are venerable companies and there are new companies, and some old companies that did well for a long time eventually close, and new ones come along to replace them: this indicates a normal, healthy business climate. To attempt to ensure the future of every single institution with a long tradition, simply because it has a long tradition, would be counterintuitive in the business world, and yet that's what some of us in classical music seem to be asking for."

And in education , one reason college tuition , like ticket prices, out of reach for many , as we try to keep every duplicative hallowed hall open just because it has been.
laraine
2014-01-30 23:02:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by pgaron
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style/wp/2014/01/30/classical-music-dead-or-alive/
I was pondering why some think classical music is elitist.

The musicians aren't generally rich, with the exception of a few.
Why don't we call business managers elitist, or sports figures elitist?
Many of them make lots of money.

It is true that getting a good seat at the opera can cost a lot, but
in general, it seems cheaper to go to a classical concert than a pop concert.

At Ravinia last year, you could hear Rachel Barton-Pine play all the Paganini caprices or Benjamin Grosvenor do a full recital for $10. The pop concerts were more expensive, and yes, some of them seemed to require elaborate staging, with lighting, etc. Think how much the staging of a Madonna concert would cost.

And ... isn't it true that many pop stars are rich... (as long as they can control their royalties). Why don't we call them elitist?

Probably the reason all has to do with appearance. The pop star seems like someone "easygoing", the sports star seems like someone in your hometown, the businessperson seems middle-class. But it's all an illusion!

If everyone wants to forget all that, and not listen to really interesting music, which, come on, many are capable of figuring out with a little time and energy, how silly is that....

C.
laraine
2014-01-30 23:22:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by laraine
At Ravinia last year, you could hear Rachel Barton-Pine play all the Paganini caprices or Benjamin Grosvenor do a full recital for $10.
Actually, I think Ravinia was having some kind of anniversary discount/special, and in general, those concerts would have been $20, but still...

C.
Bozo
2014-01-30 23:57:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by laraine
I was pondering why some think classical music is elitist.
2 marks !
Marc P.
2014-01-31 02:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by laraine
I was pondering why some think classical music is elitist.
The musicians aren't generally rich, with the exception of a few.
Why don't we call business managers elitist, or sports figures elitist?
Many of them make lots of money.
It is true that getting a good seat at the opera can cost a lot, but
in general, it seems cheaper to go to a classical concert than a pop concert.
At Ravinia last year, you could hear Rachel Barton-Pine play all the Paganini caprices or Benjamin Grosvenor do a full recital for $10. The pop concerts were more expensive, and yes, some of them seemed to require elaborate staging, with lighting, etc. Think how much the staging of a Madonna concert would cost.
And ... isn't it true that many pop stars are rich... (as long as they can control their royalties). Why don't we call them elitist?
Probably the reason all has to do with appearance. The pop star seems like someone "easygoing", the sports star seems like someone in your hometown, the businessperson seems middle-class. But it's all an illusion!
If everyone wants to forget all that, and not listen to really interesting music, which, come on, many are capable of figuring out with a little time and energy, how silly is that....
Tickets for the LA Phil start at about $55 and go up to almost $200 per seat, other major orchestras in the US are comparable, so live classical music isn't cheap. However the perceived elitism may come from the formality of concerts. Perhaps the musicians should lose the tuxedos?

Marc Perman
Al Eisner
2014-01-31 21:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc P.
Tickets for the LA Phil start at about $55 and go up to almost $200
per seat, other major orchestras in the US are comparable, so live
classical music isn't cheap.
There are sometimes ways around this. I don't know about the LA Phil,
but most years the SF Symphony has a sale of unsold tickets for a
very wide range of concerts. It usually happens in late January,
and is going on right now. The discounted seats (not all sections)
range from $20 (second balcony) to $50 (side orchestra, which can
be quite good). So, for those of you who live in the area....
Post by Marc P.
However the perceived elitism may come
from the formality of concerts. Perhaps the musicians should lose the
tuxedos?
"Elitism" tends to be a charge leveled at something one doesn't
understand. Still, I wouldn't mind losing the tuxedos.
--
Al Eisner
Bob Harper
2014-02-01 14:48:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc P.
Tickets for the LA Phil start at about $55 and go up to almost $200
per seat, other major orchestras in the US are comparable, so live
classical music isn't cheap.
There are sometimes ways around this. I don't know about the LA Phil,
but most years the SF Symphony has a sale of unsold tickets for a
very wide range of concerts. It usually happens in late January,
and is going on right now. The discounted seats (not all sections)
range from $20 (second balcony) to $50 (side orchestra, which can
be quite good). So, for those of you who live in the area....
Post by Marc P.
However the perceived elitism may come
from the formality of concerts. Perhaps the musicians should lose the
tuxedos?
"Elitism" tends to be a charge leveled at something one doesn't
understand. Still, I wouldn't mind losing the tuxedos.
David Gable once stated in this group that 'elitism' is simply a
preference for the best, and nothing for which one need apologize.
Sounds right to me.

Bob Harper
Lionel Tacchini
2014-02-01 15:04:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Al Eisner
Post by Marc P.
However the perceived elitism may come
from the formality of concerts. Perhaps the musicians should lose the
tuxedos?
"Elitism" tends to be a charge leveled at something one doesn't
understand. Still, I wouldn't mind losing the tuxedos.
David Gable once stated in this group that 'elitism' is simply a
preference for the best, and nothing for which one need apologize.
Sounds right to me.
Fair enough.
--
Lionel Tacchini
Bozo
2014-02-01 15:07:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
David Gable once stated in this group that 'elitism' is simply a
preference for the best, and nothing for which one need apologize.
Sounds right to me.
I shall have to be more careful then ,and not refer to Romney, or the Right, as " elitists."

( Wink ! )
Bob Harper
2014-02-01 15:21:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
Post by Bob Harper
David Gable once stated in this group that 'elitism' is simply a
preference for the best, and nothing for which one need apologize.
Sounds right to me.
I shall have to be more careful then ,and not refer to Romney, or the Right, as " elitists."
( Wink ! )
And you would be correct, assuming you wish to eschew using the word
simply as a term of abuse. :)

Bob Harper
Bozo
2014-02-01 15:27:34 UTC
Permalink
I shall have to be more careful then ,and not refer to Romney, or the Right, as " elitists." ( Wink ! )
And you would be correct, assuming you wish to eschew using the word
simply as a term of abuse. :)
Eschew,of course, as I would not want to wrongfully accuse anyone of preferring the best.
Herman
2014-02-01 16:40:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
Post by Bob Harper
And you would be correct, assuming you wish to eschew using the word
simply as a term of abuse. :)
Eschew,of course, as I would not want to wrongfully accuse anyone of preferring the best.
double "eschew" spotting!

Perhaps if I get very old I'll hear someone use it in actual spoken word.
Christopher Webber
2014-02-01 16:44:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Perhaps if I get very old I'll hear someone use it in actual spoken word.
I do rather a lot of audible eschewing, should you ever have the
misfortune to meet me in real time conversation.
Herman
2014-02-01 16:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Herman
Perhaps if I get very old I'll hear someone use it in actual spoken word.
I do rather a lot of audible eschewing, should you ever have the
misfortune to meet me in real time conversation.
you do? I love it when people use book words in their actual speech, as an unsettling device.
Christopher Webber
2014-02-01 17:23:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
you do? I love it when people use book words in their actual speech, as an unsettling device.
Eschew is not a "book word" - such as "sesquipedalian", for example -
but more for those of us who like to employ our English vocabulary for
its richness and pinpoint precision.

I would never use it to "unsettle" anyone. Those of us brought up on
Shakespeare and the King James Bible find "eschew" perfectly natural and
ordinary. It is certainly not a question of showing off some sort of
antiquated diction!
Edward A. Cowan
2014-02-01 17:18:04 UTC
Permalink
Has anybody referred to the texture of some comestible as "eschewy"? <g>
George
2014-02-01 16:53:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
David Gable once stated in this group that 'elitism' is simply a
preference for the best, and nothing for which one need apologize.
Sounds right to me.
Bob Harper
Could not agree more, people who do not have a need or capability for the best, call it elitist.

George
JohnGavin
2014-02-01 17:10:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by George
Post by Bob Harper
David Gable once stated in this group that 'elitism' is simply a
preference for the best, and nothing for which one need apologize.
Sounds right to me.
Bob Harper
Could not agree more, people who do not have a need or capability for the best, call it elitist.
George
How about the word "rarified" which is defined as - of high moral value; elevated in nature or style.

In fact 2 words seem pertinent in this discussion: relativity and rarified.

If you listen to rock music most of the time, then much classical music will sound overly refined and uppity in comparison. If you listen to classical music most of the time then rock music will sound crude and sometimes downright neanderthal.

That's a sort of bottom line for me. We live in a world of opposites, polarities, duality. Most of the argument-discussions here on interpreters are perceptions based on placing oneself somewhere on the spectrum which starts at one polarity and ends on the other. Dwell too long on one end, and your taste for the other end fades, even seems wrong to you. It's quite a grand illusion actually. This is why heated debates on performances have always taken place and always will. It's really an endless hamster wheel which won't stop until you get off.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
2014-02-01 18:05:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
David Gable once stated in this group that 'elitism' is simply a
preference for the best, and nothing for which one need apologize.
Sounds right to me.
What makes the best the best and who should judge that? If classical music is
automatically best, does that mean that Karl Stamitz provides a more rewarding
musical experience than Thelonious Monk or the Grateful Dead? I should think
not.
Bob Harper
2014-02-01 21:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
Post by Bob Harper
David Gable once stated in this group that 'elitism' is simply a
preference for the best, and nothing for which one need apologize.
Sounds right to me.
What makes the best the best and who should judge that? If classical music is
automatically best, does that mean that Karl Stamitz provides a more rewarding
musical experience than Thelonious Monk or the Grateful Dead? I should think
not.
"Automatically"? Clearly not. For example, I think Tatum's the best; not
so Salieri.

Bob Harper
Oscar
2014-02-01 23:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
"Automatically"? Clearly not. For example, I think Tatum's the best; not
so Salieri.
Mega-dittoes. Give me Fats Waller over Kalkbrenner any day of the week.
g***@gmail.com
2014-02-08 08:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by Marc P.
Tickets for the LA Phil start at about $55 and go up to almost $200
per seat, other major orchestras in the US are comparable, so live
classical music isn't cheap.
There are sometimes ways around this. I don't know about the LA Phil,
but most years the SF Symphony has a sale of unsold tickets for a
very wide range of concerts. It usually happens in late January,
and is going on right now. The discounted seats (not all sections)
range from $20 (second balcony) to $50 (side orchestra, which can
be quite good). So, for those of you who live in the area....
Post by Marc P.
However the perceived elitism may come
from the formality of concerts. Perhaps the musicians should lose the
tuxedos?
"Elitism" tends to be a charge leveled at something one doesn't
understand. Still, I wouldn't mind losing the tuxedos.
David Gable once stated in this group that 'elitism' is simply a
preference for the best, and nothing for which one need apologize.
Sounds right to me.
Bob Harper
- Culture is the habit of being pleased with the best and knowing why.

Henry Van Dyke
Marc P.
2014-02-02 03:21:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Al Eisner
Post by Marc P.
Tickets for the LA Phil start at about $55 and go up to almost $200
per seat, other major orchestras in the US are comparable, so live
classical music isn't cheap.
There are sometimes ways around this. I don't know about the LA Phil,
but most years the SF Symphony has a sale of unsold tickets for a
very wide range of concerts. It usually happens in late January,
and is going on right now. The discounted seats (not all sections)
range from $20 (second balcony) to $50 (side orchestra, which can
be quite good). So, for those of you who live in the area....
Post by Marc P.
However the perceived elitism may come
from the formality of concerts. Perhaps the musicians should lose the
tuxedos?
"Elitism" tends to be a charge leveled at something one doesn't
understand. Still, I wouldn't mind losing the tuxedos.
Yes the LA Phil did a similar sale for a handful of concerts in the fall, certain tickets were half price. I haven't seen that in my prior three years in LA. Attendance seems to be a bit down this year, possibly because The Dude's been away. His Tchaikovsky cycle later this month should be sold out.

Marc Perman
Oscar
2014-02-02 03:39:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc P.
Yes the LA Phil did a similar sale for a handful of concerts in the fall, certain tickets were half price. I haven't seen that in my prior three years in LA. Attendance seems to be a bit down this year, possibly because The Dude's been away. His Tchaikovsky cycle later this month should be sold out.
LA Phil offered several concerts in autumn 2011 at discounts of 40% off, including Labadie guest conducting and Boston Symphony Orchestra w/ Ludovic Morlot. I took my girlfriend to both, and can tell you this: Dudamel cannot play Mozart like Labadie, that much is certain!!
Ray Hall
2014-01-31 09:01:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by laraine
Post by pgaron
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style/wp/2014/01/30/classical-music-dead-or-alive/
I was pondering why some think classical music is elitist.
BINGO. Unfortunately some get off on classical as it conveys their
elitist feelings.
Post by laraine
The musicians aren't generally rich, with the exception of a few.
Why don't we call business managers elitist, or sports figures elitist?
Many of them make lots of money.
Bank executives for example. Way overpaid for too little done.
Post by laraine
It is true that getting a good seat at the opera can cost a lot, but
in general, it seems cheaper to go to a classical concert than a pop concert.
The Stones will set us back about $550 for a really good seat at their
gigs in Oz this year.
Post by laraine
And ... isn't it true that many pop stars are rich...
Many are super rich, almost about as rich as Rafa Nadal, but then Rafa
is rather good at tennis. ;)

Ray Hall, Taree
Bozo
2014-01-31 13:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by laraine
And ... isn't it true that many pop stars are rich...
I do wish some of the young competition winners could tour some US high schools, at a nominal fee ( for their own cd sales good ) , play a brief programme, as " role models " , think that might be effective. Without pandering a pianist might play , and discus the composer's life a bit :

Chopin " Heroic " Polonaise
Schumann "Traumeri "
Ravel " Barque sur l'ocean "
Rachmaninoff Op.39,# 5
Stravinsky, final mov. of "Petroushka"
laraine
2014-02-04 06:36:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
Post by laraine
And ... isn't it true that many pop stars are rich...
Chopin " Heroic " Polonaise
Schumann "Traumeri "
Ravel " Barque sur l'ocean "
Rachmaninoff Op.39,# 5
Stravinsky, final mov. of "Petroushka"
I hear that some of the Cliburn winners do this, but there don't seem to be enough of them to get to many schools. Do we need a Lang Lang in the US for
kids?

C.
George
2014-01-31 16:44:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by laraine
I was pondering why some think classical music is elitist.
Recently I was thinking the same and was about to post a question on a "forum" where people are very active in pursuing indie rock, they care and love music. My question would be "What you, as music lover, do not get in classical western music, what makes you to change the radio station". But I thought better of it.

The way I see it, this music style is "elitist" because only elites have time, money and education to appreciate it. It is a niche cultural product and I believe always was.

Other, popular music styles speak to people in simpler forms and have direct impact that all understand, Beethoven 9th is mightily boring and overwhelming if you are not prepared.

I also see a lot of people who start appreciating classical starting from baroque, they can enjoy it without extensive pre-conditioning, a lot of jazz fans like baroque.

George
William Sommerwerck
2014-01-31 18:40:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by George
Post by pgaron
Washington Post classical music critic Anne Midgette has an interesting
I was pondering why some think classical music is elitist.
Recently I was thinking the same and was about to post a question on a
"forum"
where people are very active in pursuing indie rock, they care and love
music.
My question would be "What you, as music lover, do not get in classical
western
music, what makes you to change the radio station". But I thought better of
it.
The way I see it, this music style is "elitist" because only elites have
time, money,
and education to appreciate it. It is a niche cultural product and I believe
always was.
Other, popular music styles speak to people in simpler forms and have direct
impact
that all understand, Beethoven 9th is mightily boring and overwhelming if
you are not
prepared.
True, but I have little understanding of -- or interest in -- heavy metal, a
supposedly simpler form.
Post by George
I also see a lot of people who start appreciating classical starting from
Baroque,
they can enjoy it without extensive pre-conditioning, a lot of jazz fans
like Baroque.
Isn't the issue that people shouldn't be "expected" to like unfamiliar
forms -- if nothing else, people are "wired" differently -- but that they
should be exposed to them at an early age, before their musical "taste buds"
have been scarred?

I don't see classical music as elitist, per se. I had no training in it, but I
like it. More than that, I en-joy it. I tell people that classical music is
fun -- because much of it is. (And I don't mean tone poems.)
Edward A. Cowan
2014-02-01 17:06:55 UTC
Permalink
I heard my first classical music in kindergarten (1943/44). It was on Columbia 78s. Prokofiev's "Peter and the Wolf" narrated by Basil Rathbone, with the All-American Orchestra cond. Leopold Stokowski. At the time, I had no idea it was "classical". I just liked the combination of story and music. (I still have an edition of that recording on LP, Columbia ML-4038. For adults, this piece likely palls, but once in a while I like to recall my youthful experience with this work.) I could hardly have thought that, many years later (1966) I should attend, for the first time, a concert of the Philadelphia Orchestra conducted by this same Leopold Stokowski! (The orchestra's strike benefit concert, performed not in the Academy of Music, but in the Convention Center.) Sometimes, one does "have all the luck". By that time I also had, on LP, Stokowski's 1927 Philadelphia recording of the Beethoven 7th symphony, a work also on this same concert. --E.A.C.
Dana John Hill
2014-01-31 20:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by George
Post by laraine
I was pondering why some think classical music is elitist.
Recently I was thinking the same and was about to post a question on a "forum" where people are very active in pursuing indie rock, they care and love music. My question would be "What you, as music lover, do not get in classical western music, what makes you to change the radio station". But I thought better of it.
The way I see it, this music style is "elitist" because only elites have time, money and education to appreciate it. It is a niche cultural product and I believe always was.
Other, popular music styles speak to people in simpler forms and have direct impact that all understand, Beethoven 9th is mightily boring and overwhelming if you are not prepared.
I also see a lot of people who start appreciating classical starting from baroque, they can enjoy it without extensive pre-conditioning, a lot of jazz fans like baroque.
George
I live in a town that's somewhat famous as an indie-rock center. I can
tell you from experience that people who are really into indie rock are
some of the most elitist music fans you will ever encounter, in the
sense that if you don't like the right bands and go to the right shows,
and one-up those around you with tales of the legendary or obscure acts
you have seen, you are judged. Rock criticism in print and online is
some of the most pompous stuff you will ever read on any subject.

I am not saying there aren't quite a few serious classical music fans
who couldn't do better to be a bit more welcoming to the new and
uninformed listeners out there. And I will give rock fans credit insofar
as they are eager to tell anyone they meet about their newest and
favorite records. But the elitist label put on classical is unfair.

I have thought for years and years that what gets labeled elitist and
what doesn't is almost completely upside down. If you've paid attention
to professional American sports in the past two decades you have seen
how the entire experience now seems targeted to corporate big-shots and
the rich. It's about luxury boxes and court-side seats for celebrities.
There is a visible separation between the average fan who paid $20 for
his seat, and the commercial real estate developer who uses his seats
behind home plate to woo clients. Even at my university (and probably
every big Southeastern school with a football program), the major donors
to the athletic programs get treated like royalty and sit on the shady
side of the stadium while the regular folks burn in the sun. Even the
marching band faces the alumni. I understand that donors provide the
funding to keep the athletic programs running, and that's very good for
the under-appreciated sports, but my point is that the separation is
real. (I should also clarify that this is really only for football:
other university sports are far more democratic.)

Meanwhile, I can get rush tickets to Ivo Pogorelich or Joshua Bell for
$10 or $15 and sit near in mid-orchestra. And, of course, recordings are
cheaper than ever.

Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida
Christopher Webber
2014-01-31 21:08:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dana John Hill
I have thought for years and years that what gets labeled elitist and
what doesn't is almost completely upside down.
I have a great deal of sympathy for your post, and find myself in
agreement with virtually all of it. But "elitist" is an insult thrown,
not at the wealthy, but at the brainy.

The feeling is that Art Music is for the brainy, whilst sport is for
anyone. So the former is "elitist" whilst the latter is not. And that's
irrespective of the amount a ticket costs, or how welcoming an art form
might be to all comers.

I realised this when pointing out that, as tickets to see the Arsenal
playing football at Emirates Stadium in North London cost MORE than
tickets to see opera at English National Opera, it was the football not
the opera which was elitist. People simply didn't understand what on
earth I was talking about - because "everybody knows" that opera is
elitist, whilst football is not.

In other words, opera is "elitist" because it requires one to do a
little homework and use one's brain - neither of which activities are
necessary to bay and scream at a football match.
Dana John Hill
2014-01-31 23:14:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Dana John Hill
I have thought for years and years that what gets labeled elitist and
what doesn't is almost completely upside down.
I have a great deal of sympathy for your post, and find myself in
agreement with virtually all of it. But "elitist" is an insult thrown,
not at the wealthy, but at the brainy.
The feeling is that Art Music is for the brainy, whilst sport is for
anyone. So the former is "elitist" whilst the latter is not. And that's
irrespective of the amount a ticket costs, or how welcoming an art form
might be to all comers.
I realised this when pointing out that, as tickets to see the Arsenal
playing football at Emirates Stadium in North London cost MORE than
tickets to see opera at English National Opera, it was the football not
the opera which was elitist. People simply didn't understand what on
earth I was talking about - because "everybody knows" that opera is
elitist, whilst football is not.
In other words, opera is "elitist" because it requires one to do a
little homework and use one's brain - neither of which activities are
necessary to bay and scream at a football match.
I concur. Though I have often pointed out to others that the energy it
takes one to become quite knowledgeable about a sport is not much less
than it takes to become quite knowledgeable about opera or classical
music. I don't mean to play a sport or play music, but just to be a fan.

For instance, how many of us know someone who is a fan of college
football, who can, at a moments notice, tell you the names of all the
players on a given team, all the best former players and coaches, as
well as a great deal of information about a given team's rivals? I have
several friends who can watch a professional football game and name all
the colleges for which these professional athletes played. And don't get
me started about stats. Some people can tell you a certain MLB pitcher's
ERA against teams who have neither red or blue in their uniforms. (Even
I can tell you that those teams include Baltimore, Oakland, and Pittsburgh.)

My point is that it doesn't really take any more time to learn the names
of all Wagner's operas or the big themes of Tchaikovsky's last three
symphonies than it takes to learn all that sports stuff.

Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida
Orlando Enrique Fiol
2014-02-01 01:04:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dana John Hill
I concur. Though I have often pointed out to others that the energy it
takes one to become quite knowledgeable about a sport is not much less
than it takes to become quite knowledgeable about opera or classical
music. I don't mean to play a sport or play music, but just to be a fan.
For instance, how many of us know someone who is a fan of college
football, who can, at a moments notice, tell you the names of all the
players on a given team, all the best former players and coaches, as
well as a great deal of information about a given team's rivals? I have
several friends who can watch a professional football game and name all
the colleges for which these professional athletes played. And don't get
me started about stats. Some people can tell you a certain MLB pitcher's
ERA against teams who have neither red or blue in their uniforms. (Even
I can tell you that those teams include Baltimore, Oakland, and Pittsburgh.)
My point is that it doesn't really take any more time to learn the names
of all Wagner's operas or the big themes of Tchaikovsky's last three
symphonies than it takes to learn all that sports stuff.
As a life long classical musician without a penchant for statistical lists, I
can attest that my musical appreciation for a Schubertian deceptive cadence or
an interlocking groove in a Steve Reich piece has nothing to do with how old
the composer was when the piece was written, when it got its world premiere,
how critics received it, when it was first published, how often it's been
recorded, etc. My appreciation is more temporal and musical than statistical.
Some sports fans only appreciate the sports events they're witnessing by
contextualizing them historically and statistically. Similarly, some classical
music fans can only understand performative differences by relating them to a
distinguished statistical history built on legendary "great performances". In
that sense, a new fan would be hard pressed to share in someone's delight at an
unexpected fortissimo that isn't written in the score but has become tradition
through imitation.
Dana John Hill
2014-02-01 16:49:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
Post by Dana John Hill
I concur. Though I have often pointed out to others that the energy it
takes one to become quite knowledgeable about a sport is not much less
than it takes to become quite knowledgeable about opera or classical
music. I don't mean to play a sport or play music, but just to be a fan.
For instance, how many of us know someone who is a fan of college
football, who can, at a moments notice, tell you the names of all the
players on a given team, all the best former players and coaches, as
well as a great deal of information about a given team's rivals? I have
several friends who can watch a professional football game and name all
the colleges for which these professional athletes played. And don't get
me started about stats. Some people can tell you a certain MLB pitcher's
ERA against teams who have neither red or blue in their uniforms. (Even
I can tell you that those teams include Baltimore, Oakland, and Pittsburgh.)
My point is that it doesn't really take any more time to learn the names
of all Wagner's operas or the big themes of Tchaikovsky's last three
symphonies than it takes to learn all that sports stuff.
As a life long classical musician without a penchant for statistical lists, I
can attest that my musical appreciation for a Schubertian deceptive cadence or
an interlocking groove in a Steve Reich piece has nothing to do with how old
the composer was when the piece was written, when it got its world premiere,
how critics received it, when it was first published, how often it's been
recorded, etc. My appreciation is more temporal and musical than statistical.
Some sports fans only appreciate the sports events they're witnessing by
contextualizing them historically and statistically. Similarly, some classical
music fans can only understand performative differences by relating them to a
distinguished statistical history built on legendary "great performances". In
that sense, a new fan would be hard pressed to share in someone's delight at an
unexpected fortissimo that isn't written in the score but has become tradition
through imitation.
Fair point.

Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida
Lionel Tacchini
2014-02-01 05:16:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dana John Hill
For instance, how many of us know someone who is a fan of college
football, who can, at a moments notice, tell you the names of all the
players on a given team, all the best former players and coaches, as
well as a great deal of information about a given team's rivals?
As if that would be of any sort of value.
--
Lionel Tacchini
Herman
2014-02-01 09:34:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Webber
I have a great deal of sympathy for your post, and find myself in
agreement with virtually all of it. But "elitist" is an insult thrown,
not at the wealthy, but at the brainy.
And the reason why is because of the Big Lie at the heart of our societies, sold under different names, such as the American Dream: Everybody has the opportunity to get stinkin' rich, so that's not elitist. The ones who don't get rich have only themselves to blame.

People who are academically smart, or who are into "difficult" types of art / entertainment are basically asked the same question over and over. If you're so smart why ain't you rich? Note that in movies (the art form where the elitist and the democratic meets) Chopin music always signals the bad guy.
Oscar
2014-02-01 23:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
And the reason why is because of the Big Lie at the heart of our societies, sold under
different names, such as the American Dream: Everybody has the opportunity to get
stinkin' rich, so that's not elitist. The ones who don't get rich have only themselves to blame.
You rich bastard, flying to California twice a year to soak up the Dreaminess of it all.

You didn't build that!
Herman
2014-02-02 08:35:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar
You rich bastard, flying to California twice a year to soak up the Dreaminess of it all.
I'm far from rich and fly back and forth more than twice a year, sorry. I can't walk the distance.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
2014-02-01 00:57:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dana John Hill
I live in a town that's somewhat famous as an indie-rock center. I can
tell you from experience that people who are really into indie rock are
some of the most elitist music fans you will ever encounter, in the
sense that if you don't like the right bands and go to the right shows,
and one-up those around you with tales of the legendary or obscure acts
you have seen, you are judged. Rock criticism in print and online is
some of the most pompous stuff you will ever read on any subject.
All that is quite true, but I think there's a difference between snobbery and
elitism. Indie rock snobs may expect you to like certain obscure bands and
judge you harshly if you're "unenlightened," but rock is still generally
conceived as a democratic musical style, whereas classical music still carries
the stigma of requiring specialized appreciation, knowledge, breeding and
customs to enjoy it, all of which tend to be associated with the landed gentry.
So when people repeat the misnomer that classical music is elitist, I don't
think they mean that the fans are necessary elitist or judgmental snobs; they
mean that the musical culture is impenetrable to people who didn't grow up in a
milieu that bred them to appreciate it. There are of course exceptions; every
rule has them: African-American folks from stereotypically blighted inner city
neighborhoods who get the classical bug, Latinos from East L.A. or "rednecks"
from Alabama who forsake country and southern rock for Mozart and Brahms. But
these are notable exceptions for a reason.
Post by Dana John Hill
I am not saying there aren't quite a few serious classical music fans
who couldn't do better to be a bit more welcoming to the new and
uninformed listeners out there. And I will give rock fans credit insofar
as they are eager to tell anyone they meet about their newest and
favorite records. But the elitist label put on classical is unfair.
Again, I'd say there's a vital difference between elitism and snobbery.
Snobbery tends to be practiced among people of the same socioeconomic group in
order to differentiate themselves by tastes, fashions or behaviors. Elitism is
generally practiced by one class to keep the others out. That was definitely
true for centuries of classical music's history, even though it may be less so
now. That mystique unfortunately remains a powerful deterrent.
Lionel Tacchini
2014-02-01 05:21:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
classical music still carries
the stigma of requiring specialized appreciation, knowledge, breeding and
customs to enjoy it, all of which tend to be associated with the landed gentry.
Yes, classical music does not "enjoy" being seen as part of the
egalitarian inculture favoured those who give the term "elitist" a
negative value.
--
Lionel Tacchini
Herman
2014-02-01 09:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
the stigma of requiring specialized appreciation, knowledge, breeding and
all of which tend to be associated with the landed gentry.
The "landed gentry"? What are you talking about? There is o such thing as "landed gentry" and most concert halls are smack in the city center.
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
Show up to the Met with frizzy hair, tattoos and ripped
jeans to see if you get let in.
My guess is they'd welcome you, as long as you have a valid ticket.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
2014-02-01 18:02:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
The "landed gentry"? What are you talking about? There is o such thing as
"landed gentry" and most concert halls are smack in the city center.
Post by Herman
My guess is they'd welcome you, as long as you have a valid ticket.
You just don't get it. Even the practice of staying silent during musical
performances is alien to large swathes of Americans. Classical music is the
only art form demanding this. Jazz gives people opportunities to clap or even
cheer during solos. Gospel in black churches has socially recognized cadential
points at which people can praise the lord or compliment the performers. All
most people get to do in a classical performance is cough between movements and
shout "bravo!" while applauding at the end. Audiences want more opportunities
to react and get involved.
Christopher Webber
2014-02-01 18:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
Audiences want more opportunities
to react and get involved.
There is no evidence at all for that statement - what you say is
anecdotal. It is not true of ballet, opera or theatre audiences any more
than it's true of Western Art Music (WAM) audiences. What happens in
popular culture has nothing to do with the matter.
Willem Orange
2014-02-01 18:58:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
Audiences want more opportunities
to react and get involved.
There is no evidence at all for that statement - what you say is
anecdotal. It is not true of ballet, opera or theatre audiences any more
than it's true of Western Art Music (WAM) audiences. What happens in
popular culture has nothing to do with the matter.
Exactly right - I assume the poster approves of the way many audiences now act in movie theatres
Herman
2014-02-01 18:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
You just don't get it. Even the practice of staying silent during musical
performances is alien to large swathes of Americans. Classical music is the
only art form demanding this. Jazz gives people opportunities to clap or even
cheer during solos. Gospel in black churches has socially recognized cadential
points at which people can praise the lord or compliment the performers. All
most people get to do in a classical performance is cough between movements and
shout "bravo!" while applauding at the end. Audiences want more opportunities
to react and get involved.
I'm awed. You seem to have talked to all audiences, and you know just what they want...
Herman
2014-02-01 19:01:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
You just don't get it. Even the practice of staying silent during musical
performances is alien to large swathes of Americans. Classical music is the
only art form demanding this.
I have terrible, terrible news for you.

Not everybody in this world is American.
JohnGavin
2014-02-01 19:06:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by Herman
The "landed gentry"? What are you talking about? There is o such thing as
"landed gentry" and most concert halls are smack in the city center.
Post by Herman
My guess is they'd welcome you, as long as you have a valid ticket.
You just don't get it. Even the practice of staying silent during musical
performances is alien to large swathes of Americans. Classical music is the
only art form demanding this.
I see the way audiences behave at rock concerts - swaying in unison, and clapping their hands over their heads. It looks like massive grand mal seizure - I'm glad I'm a classical fan. The fact that Americans can't sit still is not a virtue - it's a vice AFAIC.
Bozo
2014-02-01 19:18:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
The fact that Americans can't sit still is not a virtue - it's a vice AFAIC.
Agreed. But then , in the current culture anything that is harder to understand , takes longer to read, than a fast food menu, and takes longer to receive than a fast-food order , is incomprehensible to most. Even e-mail is being replaced by Twitter.
Ray Hall
2014-02-02 05:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnGavin
Post by Herman
Post by Herman
The "landed gentry"? What are you talking about? There is o such thing as
"landed gentry" and most concert halls are smack in the city center.
Post by Herman
My guess is they'd welcome you, as long as you have a valid ticket.
You just don't get it. Even the practice of staying silent during musical
performances is alien to large swathes of Americans. Classical music is the
only art form demanding this.
A lot of jazz demands this even to a greater degree.
Post by JohnGavin
I see the way audiences behave at rock concerts - swaying in unison,
and clapping their hands over their heads. It looks like massive

grand mal seizure - I'm glad I'm a classical fan.

The fact that Americans can't sit still is not a virtue - it's a
vice AFAIC.
It looks like swaying in unison to me. How this resembles epilepsy is
utterly beyond me. Like this thread which promotes the most bollox ever
read in this group.

Ray Hall, Taree
O
2014-02-02 16:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Hall
Post by JohnGavin
Post by Herman
Post by Herman
The "landed gentry"? What are you talking about? There is o such thing as
"landed gentry" and most concert halls are smack in the city center.
Post by Herman
My guess is they'd welcome you, as long as you have a valid ticket.
You just don't get it. Even the practice of staying silent during musical
performances is alien to large swathes of Americans. Classical music is the
only art form demanding this.
A lot of jazz demands this even to a greater degree.
Post by JohnGavin
I see the way audiences behave at rock concerts - swaying in unison,
and clapping their hands over their heads. It looks like massive
grand mal seizure - I'm glad I'm a classical fan.
The fact that Americans can't sit still is not a virtue - it's a
vice AFAIC.
It looks like swaying in unison to me. How this resembles epilepsy is
utterly beyond me. Like this thread which promotes the most bollox ever
read in this group.
We're going to do "the Wave" at Symphony Hall this week in the middle
of the Miraculous Mandarin.

-Owen, "hot dogs, get ya hot dogs!"
Bozo
2014-02-02 16:46:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by O
We're going to do "the Wave" at Symphony Hall this week in the middle
of the Miraculous Mandarin.
And at the next " La Mer " ?
John Wiser
2014-02-02 17:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
Post by O
We're going to do "the Wave" at Symphony Hall this week in the middle
of the Miraculous Mandarin.
And at the next " La Mer " ?
No. "The Flood."

jdw
dk
2014-02-08 21:26:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
Post by O
We're going to do "the Wave" at Symphony Hall this
week in the middle of the Miraculous Mandarin.
And at the next " La Mer " ?
We are past that already.

A tsunami is what is needed.

dk
Ray Hall
2014-02-02 16:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by O
We're going to do "the Wave" at Symphony Hall this week in the middle
of the Miraculous Mandarin.
If it is a good reading, at least it might get a few running for the
exits. ;)

Ray Hall, Taree
g***@gmail.com
2014-02-04 04:06:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
Post by Herman
The "landed gentry"? What are you talking about? There is o such thing as
"landed gentry" and most concert halls are smack in the city center.
Post by Herman
My guess is they'd welcome you, as long as you have a valid ticket.
You just don't get it. Even the practice of staying silent during musical
performances is alien to large swathes of Americans. Classical music is the
only art form demanding this. Jazz gives people opportunities to clap or even
cheer during solos. Gospel in black churches has socially recognized cadential
points at which people can praise the lord or compliment the performers. All
most people get to do in a classical performance is cough between movements and
shout "bravo!" while applauding at the end. Audiences want more opportunities
to react and get involved.
Concerning the comment, "Audiences want more opportunities to react and get involved," that may be a more recent development than you realize.

When Marvin Gaye came out with I HEARD IT THROUGH THE GRAPEVINE, he sang it to a television audience that, by today's standards, looked as if they were listening to a sermon. No one was tapping their foot, much less moving their body to the beat.

That performance may be on YOUTUBE.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
2014-02-08 04:51:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Concerning the comment, "Audiences want more opportunities to react and get
involved," that may be a more recent development than you realize.
Post by g***@gmail.com
When Marvin Gaye came out with I HEARD IT THROUGH THE GRAPEVINE, he sang it to a television audience that, by today's standards, looked as if they were listening to a sermon. No one was tapping their foot, much less moving their body to the beat.
That performance may be on YOUTUBE.
That performance notwithstanding, black audiences were used to tapping their
feet and expressing appreciation for enjoyable performances. This is amply
historically documented.
Herman
2014-02-08 08:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
That performance notwithstanding, black audiences were used to tapping their
feet and expressing appreciation for enjoyable performances. This is amply
historically documented.
wow. Perhaps you live in some weird backwater.
Christopher Webber
2014-02-08 10:43:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
Concerning the comment, "Audiences want more opportunities to react and get
involved," that may be a more recent development than you realize
There's nothing new about this. Historically, more rather than less
reaction is usual.

Note Alban Berg's delighted reaction to the audience's response during
the first performance of his 'Lyric Suite' in 1927:
"... a big success. There was applause after every movement from the
2nd on .... !"

This would have been the normal demonstration of appreciation for
symphonic (and clearly also chamber music) movements at any time up to
and beyond 1927. Haydn for example would have expected applause to break
out during particularly brilliant allegro passages in his symphonies - I
was heard No.104 overdubbed with applause in this manner, according to
1800's London and European practice, and it certainly added to the thrill.

We are witnessing a regression to the norm, away from the atmosphere of
the Sacred Shrine and back towards what used to be called - and with
accuracy - the Concert Party.
Bozo
2014-03-23 14:20:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Concerning the comment, "Audiences want more opportunities to react and get
involved," that may be a more recent development than you realize
We are witnessing a regression to the norm, away from the atmosphere of
the Sacred Shrine and back towards what used to be called - and with
accuracy - the Concert Party.
Some thoughts on elling , and being employed in, CM, i.e. no one has a clue ?:

http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/job-market-conservatories-stress-business-skills/

And control trolls at LaScala , not just at rmcr ? Good luck :

http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/la-scalas-incoming-boss-takes-aim-booing-superfans/

( Alagna walks off )
Johnny Bonkers
2014-03-25 21:16:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Concerning the comment, "Audiences want more opportunities to react and get
involved," that may be a more recent development than you realize
We are witnessing a regression to the norm, away from the atmosphere of
the Sacred Shrine and back towards what used to be called - and with
accuracy - the Concert Party.
Fine with me as long as the music calls for it. I like the Vienna audiences clapping to the Radetzky March in New Years Day. But tapping your feet, even softly, at a solo harpsichord concert -yep I've heard that- is downright annoying. Sorry if this sounds against the current trends but most of CM is too nuanced to work well with clapping audiences.
Post by g***@gmail.com
http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/job-market-conservatories-stress-business-skills/
Isn't this why Barenboim walked away from the CSO and refused to consider the NYP? Why should young musicians need to know more about marketing than music?
Post by g***@gmail.com
http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/la-scalas-incoming-boss-takes-aim-booing-superfans/
http://youtu.be/AxyBxbGF-Qg (Alagna walks off)
Even if the booing is completely unjustified, performers should grin and bear it. I'm aure Alagna's teachers criticized him rudely more than once (you don't become a top artist f you're surrounded by yes men)
Bozo
2014-03-27 11:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/job-market-conservatories-stress-business-skills/
The San Diego Opera shuts down. Guess the 2 % aren't giving:

http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/widespread-surprise-san-diego-operas-decision-fold/
g***@gmail.com
2014-02-08 09:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Herman
Post by Herman
The "landed gentry"? What are you talking about? There is o such thing as
"landed gentry" and most concert halls are smack in the city center.
Post by Herman
My guess is they'd welcome you, as long as you have a valid ticket.
You just don't get it. Even the practice of staying silent during musical
performances is alien to large swathes of Americans. Classical music is the
only art form demanding this. Jazz gives people opportunities to clap or even
cheer during solos. Gospel in black churches has socially recognized cadential
points at which people can praise the lord or compliment the performers. All
most people get to do in a classical performance is cough between movements and
shout "bravo!" while applauding at the end. Audiences want more opportunities
to react and get involved.
Concerning the comment, "Audiences want more opportunities to react and get involved," that may be a more recent development than you realize.
When Marvin Gaye came out with I HEARD IT THROUGH THE GRAPEVINE, he sang it to a television audience that, by today's standards, looked as if they were listening to a sermon. No one was tapping their foot, much less moving their body to the beat.
That performance may be on YOUTUBE.
To see it, search "Marvin Gaye I Heard It Through The Grapevine (1968).flv" and then fast forward to about 2:00 when he stands up. By that time, you would think that the audience would be all worked up, on their feet and clapping their hands.

How times have changed.
Herman
2014-02-08 09:38:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
To see it, search "Marvin Gaye I Heard It Through The Grapevine (1968).flv" and then fast forward to about 2:00 when he stands up. By that time, you would think that the audience would be all worked up, on their feet and clapping their hands.
How times have changed.
sorry, I'm no 1900 amateur anthropologist studying whether "black audiences" get the rhythm.
laraine
2014-02-04 04:56:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
All that is quite true, but I think there's a difference between snobbery and
elitism. Indie rock snobs may expect you to like certain obscure bands and
judge you harshly if you're "unenlightened," but rock is still generally
conceived as a democratic musical style, whereas classical music still
carries the stigma of requiring specialized appreciation, knowledge,
breeding and customs to enjoy it,
But isn't that somewhat of a misconception?

I think that if everyone listened to classical recordings after school with their friends, they'd all learn to enjoy it, just as I know I've learned to enjoy some unfamiliar pop songs with friends. Everyone seems to assume it's extremely difficult. Some is, I suppose, but a lot is not, with any musical genre. It's partly the culture one grows up in, and the time that's invested.
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
all of which tend to be associated with the landed gentry.
And yet I think
So when people repeat the misnomer that classical music is elitist, I don't
think they mean that the fans are necessary elitist or judgmental snobs; they
mean that the musical culture is impenetrable to people who didn't grow up in > a milieu that bred them to appreciate it. There are of course exceptions;
every rule has them: African-American folks from stereotypically blighted >inner city
neighborhoods who get the classical bug, Latinos from East L.A. or "rednecks"
from Alabama who forsake country and southern rock for Mozart and Brahms. But
these are notable exceptions for a reason.
Post by Dana John Hill
I am not saying there aren't quite a few serious classical music fans
who couldn't do better to be a bit more welcoming to the new and
uninformed listeners out there. And I will give rock fans credit insofar
as they are eager to tell anyone they meet about their newest and
favorite records. But the elitist label put on classical is unfair.
Again, I'd say there's a vital difference between elitism and snobbery.
Snobbery tends to be practiced among people of the same socioeconomic group
in order to differentiate themselves by tastes, fashions or behaviors.
Elitism is generally practiced by one class to keep the others out. That was
definitely true for centuries of classical music's history, even though it
may be less so now. That mystique unfortunately remains a powerful deterrent.
I'm curious why we don't feel the same way about art, for example. Haven't ever heard anyone saying we shouldn't like van Gogh or da Vinci. Some visual artists certainly worked for rich patrons. And many of us don't have the talent for visual art.

C.
Herman
2014-02-04 08:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by laraine
I'm curious why we don't feel the same way about art, for example. Haven't ever heard anyone saying we shouldn't like van Gogh or da Vinci. Some visual artists certainly worked for rich patrons. And many of us don't have the talent for visual art.
The commercial interests in popular culture (music, tv, computer games) are a large part of this. People just do what they're told to do and follow the herd. This is why so many of these "get rid of the tuxedos" are about the superficial stuff. As if rock musicians follow a very strict code in their apparel, too, only it's different.
Oscar
2014-02-04 09:18:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Herman
The commercial interests in popular culture (music, tv, computer games) are a large part
of this. People just do what they're told to do and follow the herd.
So true. To wit, the very beloved (home) state to which you will be traveling next month:

VIDEO:


<< Media analyst Mark Dice has once again documented how many young Americans are completely disconnected from reality, capturing California college students signing a fake petition to imprison all legal gun owners in concentration camps and even to have them executed.

"We just want to make sure we disarm the citizens. We can trust the government to be the only ones with guns." Dice said to students on campus in San Diego, while they unquestioningly signed the petition to "repeal the Second Amendment."

"These peasants don't need guns," Dice stated, adding "We want to put all registered gun owners in prison," prompting one student to replay "Yes, it's too dangerous." for people to own guns.

"It's just a simple repeal of the Second Amendment and we'll be terminating and executing all of the gun owners." Dice told another signatory who replied "OK, thank you." and walked off.

"We are going to ban all guns except for the military and police." Dice told another student, who signed the petition. "We'll do door to door confiscations, we have lists of all the registered weapons, so the military will just go and take those away from people." Dice added. "Ok." the student replied.

Another male student signed the petition even though Dice suggested confiscating gun owners' weapons and shooting them with them. "If they like their guns so much, let's just feed the gun owners some of their own lead." Dice ludicrously said.

"I didn't think I could get any more ridiculous." Dice stated after the student thanked him and went about his day.

But he did get more ridiculous. "We need to take these gun owners and put them into FEMA concentration camps to keep everybody safe." Dice told a skateboarding jock who replied "well I agree with you there, keep them safe." Although he refused to sign "something I don't know anything about," which is something the next student did not consider as he replied "sounds about right" to Dice's FEMA camp suggestion.

Several other students then happily signed the petition, with responses such as "no problem!" as Dice suggested putting Americans in detention camps and killing them. >>
Lionel Tacchini
2014-02-04 10:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oscar
Post by Herman
The commercial interests in popular culture (music, tv, computer games) are a large part
of this. People just do what they're told to do and follow the herd.
So true.
So dumb.
But that's what we have to live with, so let it be.
--
Lionel Tacchini
Bozo
2014-02-04 13:23:03 UTC
Permalink
"We are going to ban all guns except for the military and police." Dice told another student, who >signed >the petition. "We'll do door to door confiscations, we have lists of all the registered weapons, >so the >military will just go and take those away from people." Dice added.
Well , at least one good idea.

Detention camps and executions would be too costly.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
2014-02-01 01:12:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dana John Hill
I live in a town that's somewhat famous as an indie-rock center. I can
tell you from experience that people who are really into indie rock are
some of the most elitist music fans you will ever encounter, in the
sense that if you don't like the right bands and go to the right shows,
and one-up those around you with tales of the legendary or obscure acts
you have seen, you are judged. Rock criticism in print and online is
some of the most pompous stuff you will ever read on any subject.
Here, I think it useful to distinguish between snobbery and elitism. Snobbery
tends to be practiced by members of a common socioeconomic background to
distinguish themselves from others by unique tastes, fashions or behaviors.
Elitism is generally practiced by upper classes to keep the lower classes out.
Whereas many hard-core indie rockers may judge people who neither know nor like
their preferred obscure bands, there hasn't been a tradition in indie rock of
engineering every aspect of a music's aesthetics and surrounding culture to
reinforce one class' superiority over another.
Post by Dana John Hill
I am not saying there aren't quite a few serious classical music fans
who couldn't do better to be a bit more welcoming to the new and
uninformed listeners out there. And I will give rock fans credit insofar
as they are eager to tell anyone they meet about their newest and
favorite records. But the elitist label put on classical is unfair.
If you consider classical music history, you will realize that the elitist
label is not at all unfair. We're living in a very different time than Bach or
Mozart did. Laborers weren't exposed to Bach's Brandenburg Concerti or Mozart's
Jupiter Symphony; they were exposed to folk music that is largely lost to us
now because it was not passed down through notation or recordings. Classical
music was meant for kings; everybody knew it, from the way musicians were
expected to dress to the way they were expected to speak and defer. Eventually,
the court got replaced by the conservatory, the ivory tower, the graying
orchestral and operatic audiences and other social institutions with their own
brands of elitism. Show up to the Met with frizzy hair, tattoos and ripped
jeans to see if you get let in.
Christopher Webber
2014-02-01 09:15:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
Show up to the Met with frizzy hair, tattoos and ripped
jeans to see if you get let in.
That's not a differentiator from sport, really. Turn up at the gate of
the Member's Enclosure of any British racecourse, and try to get in with
any of the above apparel: the same rules apply.

Mind you, perhaps it would be accurate to say that the Met is
essentially a sporting, rather than artistic, venue!
Norman Schwartz
2014-02-04 00:21:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher Webber
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
Show up to the Met with frizzy hair, tattoos and ripped
jeans to see if you get let in.
That's not a differentiator from sport, really. Turn up at the gate of
the Member's Enclosure of any British racecourse, and try to get in
with any of the above apparel: the same rules apply.
Mind you, perhaps it would be accurate to say that the Met is
essentially a sporting, rather than artistic, venue!
Regardless, if he also smells bad (which seems likely given his description)
I would prefer being spared the possibility of his sitting next to me, or
any other place nearby. That applies equally well to a local movie theater,
only there I might be able to find another seat.
g***@gmail.com
2014-02-08 08:46:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
Post by Dana John Hill
I live in a town that's somewhat famous as an indie-rock center. I can
tell you from experience that people who are really into indie rock are
some of the most elitist music fans you will ever encounter, in the
sense that if you don't like the right bands and go to the right shows,
and one-up those around you with tales of the legendary or obscure acts
you have seen, you are judged. Rock criticism in print and online is
some of the most pompous stuff you will ever read on any subject.
Here, I think it useful to distinguish between snobbery and elitism. Snobbery
tends to be practiced by members of a common socioeconomic background to
distinguish themselves from others by unique tastes, fashions or behaviors.
Elitism is generally practiced by upper classes to keep the lower classes out.
Whereas many hard-core indie rockers may judge people who neither know nor like
their preferred obscure bands, there hasn't been a tradition in indie rock of
engineering every aspect of a music's aesthetics and surrounding culture to
reinforce one class' superiority over another.
Post by Dana John Hill
I am not saying there aren't quite a few serious classical music fans
who couldn't do better to be a bit more welcoming to the new and
uninformed listeners out there. And I will give rock fans credit insofar
as they are eager to tell anyone they meet about their newest and
favorite records. But the elitist label put on classical is unfair.
If you consider classical music history, you will realize that the elitist
label is not at all unfair. We're living in a very different time than Bach or
Mozart did. Laborers weren't exposed to Bach's Brandenburg Concerti or Mozart's
Jupiter Symphony; they were exposed to folk music that is largely lost to us
now because it was not passed down through notation or recordings. Classical
music was meant for kings; everybody knew it, from the way musicians were
expected to dress to the way they were expected to speak and defer. Eventually,
the court got replaced by the conservatory, the ivory tower, the graying
orchestral and operatic audiences and other social institutions with their own
brands of elitism. Show up to the Met with frizzy hair, tattoos and ripped
jeans to see if you get let in.
The following posted here about 15 years ago may be of interest:

A snob is somebody who only pretends to
share the taste of his social superiors. A snob doesn't apply critical
standards. A snob wants to appear to be part of some elite social or
intellectual group, and feigns a taste for the things he or she perceives to be
shared by the members of that group. Snobbery and elitism are not the same
thing, although American anti-elitism leads to a hatred of snobbery: "Why
would you pretend to like THAT?"

But American anti-elitism is selective. We admire cut-throat Wall Street
elitism and elitism on the basketball court. Nobody is offended when Sacred
Cow Michael Jordan allows his smiling face to be plastered all over every
conceivable commercial product for large sums of money, because he is a member
of the two acceptable elites: athletes and people who make lots of money. If
you're really an anti-elitist, then you should insist that I be allowed to play
basketball with the Chicago Bulls. After all, we don't want only the elite to
be allowed to play.

It is now fashionable in some politically correct corners of academia to claim
that all enthusiasm for high culture (e.g., classical music) is mere snobbery,
that is, that it is all feigned for the sake of appearances. This snobbery,
this feigned love of high culture, is supposedly just a ploy to preserve the
power structure. (What a way to preserve the power structure! To pretend to
like classical music.) At the same time, given the debased versions of
Romanticism that govern pop culture and popular notions of what art is,
"learned" art and the people who produce and consume it are viewed with
suspicion. Elites at the mastery of artistic skills are viewed with suspicion.

I've already related a little anecdote I found in the New Yorker on rmcr, but
it's worth repeating. In a New Yorker profile of Philippe de Montebello, the
curator of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, de Montebello tells of a group of
school children coming to visit the museum one Saturday morning. One earnest
little African-American boy raised his hand and said, "What are you doing to
combat elitism?" Not missing a beat, de Montebello responded, "Why you're an
elitist! You're not hanging out on some street corner. You're here because
you want to learn something, and I'd say that makes you an elitist."

Of course, you see a lot of Romantic/subjectivist nonsense on this newsgroup, a
preference for "feeling" over "thought," a view that the subjective response
of the listener's little ego is all that counts, that the composer had little
to do with it. On the contrary, the composer's technical mastery enabled him
to create the effects that we all respond to pretty much in the same way. Of
course, we share the composer's language. It's like sharing a mastery of
English. People only think Boulez's music is a wall of noise because they
haven't internalized the language of his music. E.T.A. Hoffman, the great
Romantic critic of Mozart and Beethoven, pointed out that you could explain the
technical effect that caused a shudder to run up and down the spine of
everybody in the audience at precisely the point when the Statue nods his head
and agrees to come to dinner in the graveyard scene from Don Giovanni, because
there is no difference between the effect and the technical means for producing
it. And we all experience the shudder at the exact same point, thanks to
Mozart. It's not so much our subjectivity as our shared competence that comes
into play. Of course, confusion does occur fairly frequently in the course of
normal everyday speech, but the instant understanding that goes on all day
without our giving a thought to it is infinitely more common than the
exceptional moments of confusion.

No, I am not a Republican.

-david gable




Alain Dagher
1/11/00

Snobbery and Elitism

Good points David, but can I disagree with a couple of things? First, elitism
doesn't refer to the pursuit (or attainment) of excellence, but to the maintainance
of power by people who give the impression of excellence. So the boy in the museum
wasn't being elitist. But you're certainly right that the notion that classical
music is part of an elitist power structure is a quaint atavism. Most snobbery
nowadays is of the anti-intellectual kind.
Second, music, more than any other art form, targets the emotions. This is not to
say that the musical experience is only intuitive, or that learning and thinking
play no role in music appreciation, but the primary effect is one of pleasure.
ciao,

Alain
g***@gmail.com
2014-02-08 08:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orlando Enrique Fiol
Post by Dana John Hill
I live in a town that's somewhat famous as an indie-rock center. I can
tell you from experience that people who are really into indie rock are
some of the most elitist music fans you will ever encounter, in the
sense that if you don't like the right bands and go to the right shows,
and one-up those around you with tales of the legendary or obscure acts
you have seen, you are judged. Rock criticism in print and online is
some of the most pompous stuff you will ever read on any subject.
Here, I think it useful to distinguish between snobbery and elitism. Snobbery
tends to be practiced by members of a common socioeconomic background to
distinguish themselves from others by unique tastes, fashions or behaviors.
Elitism is generally practiced by upper classes to keep the lower classes out.
Whereas many hard-core indie rockers may judge people who neither know nor like
their preferred obscure bands, there hasn't been a tradition in indie rock of
engineering every aspect of a music's aesthetics and surrounding culture to
reinforce one class' superiority over another.
Post by Dana John Hill
I am not saying there aren't quite a few serious classical music fans
who couldn't do better to be a bit more welcoming to the new and
uninformed listeners out there. And I will give rock fans credit insofar
as they are eager to tell anyone they meet about their newest and
favorite records. But the elitist label put on classical is unfair.
If you consider classical music history, you will realize that the elitist
label is not at all unfair. We're living in a very different time than Bach or
Mozart did. Laborers weren't exposed to Bach's Brandenburg Concerti or Mozart's
Jupiter Symphony; they were exposed to folk music that is largely lost to us
now because it was not passed down through notation or recordings. Classical
music was meant for kings; everybody knew it, from the way musicians were
expected to dress to the way they were expected to speak and defer. Eventually,
the court got replaced by the conservatory, the ivory tower, the graying
orchestral and operatic audiences and other social institutions with their own
brands of elitism. Show up to the Met with frizzy hair, tattoos and ripped
jeans to see if you get let in.
Am I a snob or an elitist?:

- Is everyone who should be h'yah...........................h'yah?
Sol L. Siegel
2014-01-31 03:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by pgaron
Washington Post classical music critic Anne Midgette has an
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style/wp/2014/01/30/classical-music-
dead-or-alive/
The New Yorker has a different take:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/culture/2014/01/stop-trying-to-kill-
classical-music.html

or: http://tinyurl.com/n7c65up

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
Bozo
2014-01-31 16:27:06 UTC
Permalink
And there may be other challenges in this age of terrorism :

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/31/us/a-violinists-triumph-is-ruined-by-thieves.html?ref=arts
weary flake
2014-01-31 16:30:44 UTC
Permalink
As dead as the Grateful Dead.
Matthew B. Tepper
2014-02-02 18:48:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by pgaron
Washington Post classical music critic Anne Midgette has an interesting
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/style/wp/2014/01/30/classical-music-de
ad-or-alive/
Classical music is *always* dying. That's what keeps it alive.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Bozo
2014-02-09 19:05:28 UTC
Permalink
A recording of a great live concert from Brussels celebrating the 75th anniversary of the Queen Elisabeth Music Chapel, and young artists , some works new to me . The Ysaye gorgeous ; the Sarasate a blast ; all would be great for elementary schoolers to see as evidence CM can be cool :

http://www.medici.tv/#!/celebrating-75-anniversary-queen-elisabeth-music-chapel-bozar

Mozart, concert aria "Ch'io mi scordi di te ?", K.505, for soprano, piano , and orchestra

Schubert, Fantasy in F minor for piano 4-hands, D.940

Rachmaninoff , Romance in A major, for 6 hands ( one piano ! )

Ysaye, Poeme "Amities" for 2 violins and orchestra

Tchaikovsky, "Rococo" Variations

Waxman / Bizet " Carmen" Fantasy

Sarasate , "Navarra" for 2 violins, orchestra

Artists :

Orchestre Royal de Chambre de Wallonie , 
Augustin Dumay conductor

Aleksandra Orlowska soprano (Mozart)
Julien Brocal piano (Mozart)

Maria João Pires piano (Schubert)
Julien Libeer piano (Schubert)

Julien Brocal piano (Rachmaninov)
Maria João Pires piano (Rachmaninov)
Julien Libeer piano (Rachmaninov)

Liya Petrova violin (Ysaÿe)
Hrachya Avanesyan violin (Ysaÿe)

Deborah Pae cello (Tchaikovsky)

Esther Yoo violin (Waxman)

Esther Yoo violin (Sarasate)
Liya Petrova violin (Sarasate)
Bozo
2014-03-11 20:33:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bozo
Esther Yoo violin (Waxman)
Esther Yoo violin (Sarasate)
Woo apparently the next big thing :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/new-music/10676266/Esther-Yoo-New-music.html

http://www.estheryooviolin.com/artist.php?view=news&nid=5211
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