Discussion:
CHOPIN...
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MELMOTH
2021-04-20 08:11:12 UTC
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"After playing Chopin, I feel as if I have wept over sins I never
committed and lamented tragedies to which I was a stranger" O. *WILDE*

"I would give for Chopin all the rest of music" *NIETZCHE*

"He was dying all his life" *BERLIOZ*

"Chopin is an indecisive man. He is faithful only to his cough. He
coughs with infinite grace." *MARIE D'AGOULT*

"This dear corpse...He made a single instrument speak the language of
the infinite. Only Mozart is superior to him." G. *SAND*

"Hysterical bastard." *BALAKIREV*

'I love crying over Chopin. Especially when it's nice outside."
*TIMSIT* (French humorist)
Henk vT
2021-04-20 10:24:28 UTC
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Post by MELMOTH
"After playing Chopin, I feel as if I have wept over sins I never
committed and lamented tragedies to which I was a stranger" O. *WILDE*
"I would give for Chopin all the rest of music" *NIETZCHE*
"He was dying all his life" *BERLIOZ*
"Chopin is an indecisive man. He is faithful only to his cough. He
coughs with infinite grace." *MARIE D'AGOULT*
"This dear corpse...He made a single instrument speak the language of
the infinite. Only Mozart is superior to him." G. *SAND*
"Hysterical bastard." *BALAKIREV*
'I love crying over Chopin. Especially when it's nice outside."
*TIMSIT* (French humorist)
Sentimental drivel. Just listen to his music:



Henk
Herman
2021-04-20 11:19:20 UTC
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On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 10:11:17 AM UTC+2, MELMOTH wrote:

People prefer words over music. Words tell you what to think.
Henk vT
2021-04-20 12:55:01 UTC
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Post by Herman
People prefer words over music. Words tell you what to think.
<g> OK, let's see what these words tell us.

Playing or listening to Chopin allows you to have strong but unfounded feelings; give away what doesn't belong to you; kick in open doors; judge someone by their cough; believe in the existence of a language of the infinite; call those whose national monument you reveal hysterical assholes.

Henk
Dan Koren
2021-04-20 15:32:50 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Post by Herman
People prefer words over music. Words tell you what to
think.
<g> OK, let's see what these words tell us.
Playing or listening to Chopin allows you to have strong but
unfounded feelings; give away what doesn't belong to you;
kick in open doors; judge someone by their cough; believe in
the existence of a language of the infinite; call those whose
national monument you reveal hysterical assholes.
Playing Chopin makes me fear I would miss notes and upset
my cats. Listening to Chopin makes me wonder how they do it.
Hearing Arrau, Backhaus and Serkin butcher Chopin makes me
extremely angry and agitated.

dk
number_six
2021-04-20 19:25:07 UTC
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Post by Herman
People prefer words over music. Words tell you what to think.
If I recall, there's a Robert Wyatt song (Gharbzadegi) that includes this line:

Words take the place of music.

It's on Wyatt's Old Rottenhat album.
Chris from Lafayette
2021-04-20 19:04:54 UTC
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Post by MELMOTH
"After playing Chopin, I feel as if I have wept over sins I never
committed and lamented tragedies to which I was a stranger" O. *WILDE*
"I would give for Chopin all the rest of music" *NIETZCHE*
"He was dying all his life" *BERLIOZ*
"Chopin is an indecisive man. He is faithful only to his cough. He
coughs with infinite grace." *MARIE D'AGOULT*
"This dear corpse...He made a single instrument speak the language of
the infinite. Only Mozart is superior to him." G. *SAND*
"Hysterical bastard." *BALAKIREV*
Wow - I had not heard that Balakirev quote before! It strikes me as ironic, because there seems to be a fair degree of Chopin influence in some of Balakirev's own piano music. Not to mention Balakirev's arrangement for solo piano of the Romance from Chopin's First Concerto. I wonder about the circumstances surrounding that nasty-sounding remark.
Dan Koren
2021-04-20 19:52:45 UTC
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Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by MELMOTH
"After playing Chopin, I feel as if I have wept over sins I never
committed and lamented tragedies to which I was a stranger" O. *WILDE*
"I would give for Chopin all the rest of music" *NIETZCHE*
"He was dying all his life" *BERLIOZ*
"Chopin is an indecisive man. He is faithful only to his cough. He
coughs with infinite grace." *MARIE D'AGOULT*
"This dear corpse...He made a single instrument speak the language of
the infinite. Only Mozart is superior to him." G. *SAND*
"Hysterical bastard." *BALAKIREV*
Wow - I had not heard that Balakirev quote before! It strikes me as
ironic, because there seems to be a fair degree of Chopin influence
in some of Balakirev's own piano music. Not to mention Balakirev's
arrangement for solo piano of the Romance from Chopin's First
Concerto. I wonder about the circumstances surrounding that
nasty-sounding remark.
He was drunk -- beyond imagination.

dk
Chris from Lafayette
2021-04-20 20:15:48 UTC
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Post by Dan Koren
He was drunk -- beyond imagination.
dk
Oh yeah - that's right! Maybe his religious mysticism played into it too! ;-)
Henk vT
2021-04-20 21:03:07 UTC
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Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by MELMOTH
"After playing Chopin, I feel as if I have wept over sins I never
committed and lamented tragedies to which I was a stranger" O. *WILDE*
"I would give for Chopin all the rest of music" *NIETZCHE*
"He was dying all his life" *BERLIOZ*
"Chopin is an indecisive man. He is faithful only to his cough. He
coughs with infinite grace." *MARIE D'AGOULT*
"This dear corpse...He made a single instrument speak the language of
the infinite. Only Mozart is superior to him." G. *SAND*
"Hysterical bastard." *BALAKIREV*
Wow - I had not heard that Balakirev quote before! It strikes me as ironic, because there seems to be a fair degree of Chopin influence in some of Balakirev's own piano music. Not to mention Balakirev's arrangement for solo piano of the Romance from Chopin's First Concerto. I wonder about the circumstances surrounding that nasty-sounding remark.
IIRC Balakirew seems to have been a very unpleasant human being. He probably didn't need special circumstances.

Henk
Dan Koren
2021-04-21 00:06:30 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by MELMOTH
"After playing Chopin, I feel as if I have wept over sins I never
committed and lamented tragedies to which I was a stranger" O. *WILDE*
"I would give for Chopin all the rest of music" *NIETZCHE*
"He was dying all his life" *BERLIOZ*
"Chopin is an indecisive man. He is faithful only to his cough. He
coughs with infinite grace." *MARIE D'AGOULT*
"This dear corpse...He made a single instrument speak the language of
the infinite. Only Mozart is superior to him." G. *SAND*
"Hysterical bastard." *BALAKIREV*
Wow - I had not heard that Balakirev quote before! It strikes me as ironic,
because there seems to be a fair degree of Chopin influence in some of
Balakirev's own piano music. Not to mention Balakirev's arrangement for
solo piano of the Romance from Chopin's First Concerto. I wonder about
the circumstances surrounding that nasty-sounding remark.
IIRC Balakirew seems to have been a very unpleasant human being.
Especially when people misspell his name with a "w" at the end! ;-)
Post by Henk vT
He probably didn't need special circumstances.
You just created one! ;-)

dk
Frank Berger
2021-04-21 00:37:26 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by MELMOTH
"After playing Chopin, I feel as if I have wept over sins I never
committed and lamented tragedies to which I was a stranger" O. *WILDE*
"I would give for Chopin all the rest of music" *NIETZCHE*
"He was dying all his life" *BERLIOZ*
"Chopin is an indecisive man. He is faithful only to his cough. He
coughs with infinite grace." *MARIE D'AGOULT*
"This dear corpse...He made a single instrument speak the language of
the infinite. Only Mozart is superior to him." G. *SAND*
"Hysterical bastard." *BALAKIREV*
Wow - I had not heard that Balakirev quote before! It strikes me as ironic, because there seems to be a fair degree of Chopin influence in some of Balakirev's own piano music. Not to mention Balakirev's arrangement for solo piano of the Romance from Chopin's First Concerto. I wonder about the circumstances surrounding that nasty-sounding remark.
IIRC Balakirew seems to have been a very unpleasant human being. He probably didn't need special circumstances.
Henk
Reading the Wikipedia entry on Balakirev, I would say your characterization is grossly over simplified.
Ricardo Jimenez
2021-04-21 01:43:29 UTC
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On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:37:26 -0400, Frank Berger
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by MELMOTH
"After playing Chopin, I feel as if I have wept over sins I never
committed and lamented tragedies to which I was a stranger" O. *WILDE*
"I would give for Chopin all the rest of music" *NIETZCHE*
"He was dying all his life" *BERLIOZ*
"Chopin is an indecisive man. He is faithful only to his cough. He
coughs with infinite grace." *MARIE D'AGOULT*
"This dear corpse...He made a single instrument speak the language of
the infinite. Only Mozart is superior to him." G. *SAND*
"Hysterical bastard." *BALAKIREV*
Wow - I had not heard that Balakirev quote before! It strikes me as ironic, because there seems to be a fair degree of Chopin influence in some of Balakirev's own piano music. Not to mention Balakirev's arrangement for solo piano of the Romance from Chopin's First Concerto. I wonder about the circumstances surrounding that nasty-sounding remark.
IIRC Balakirew seems to have been a very unpleasant human being. He probably didn't need special circumstances.
Henk
Reading the Wikipedia entry on Balakirev, I would say your characterization is grossly over simplified.
DG remastered Friedrich Gulda's performance of Balakirev's excellent
reorchestration of the Chopin Piano Concerto No. 1 and released it in
2010. It is more exciting and interesting to listen to than the
original semi-orchestration. It is also better than similar attempts
by Tausig and Pletnev (among others).
Frank Lekens
2021-04-25 09:05:13 UTC
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Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by MELMOTH
"After playing Chopin, I feel as if I have wept over sins I never
committed and lamented tragedies to which I was a stranger" O. *WILDE*
"I would give for Chopin all the rest of music" *NIETZCHE*
"He was dying all his life" *BERLIOZ*
"Chopin is an indecisive man. He is faithful only to his cough. He
coughs with infinite grace." *MARIE D'AGOULT*
"This dear corpse...He made a single instrument speak the language of
the infinite. Only Mozart is superior to him." G. *SAND*
"Hysterical bastard." *BALAKIREV*
Wow - I had not heard that Balakirev quote before! It strikes me as
ironic, because there seems to be a fair degree of Chopin influence
in some of Balakirev's own piano music. Not to mention Balakirev's
arrangement for solo piano of the Romance from Chopin's First
Concerto. I wonder about the circumstances surrounding that
nasty-sounding remark.
IIRC Balakirew seems to have been a very unpleasant human being. He
probably didn't need special circumstances.
Henk
Reading the Wikipedia entry on Balakirev, I would say your
characterization is grossly over simplified.
If he's not just making it up, I suspect Henk read things about him
elsewhere -- in books or on the net, where especially Balakirevs
virulent anti-semitism is often remarked on.

E.g.
https://spectator.us/book-and-art/balakirev-beautiful-inventive-works-fashion/

"Anyone who invited the Russian composer Mily Balakirev to dinner had to
be jolly careful about the fish they served. How had it died? Balakirev
— mentor of Mussorgsky and Rimsky-Korsakov and regarded as the founder
of the Russian nationalist school of music — would want to know. If the
fish had perished on a hook, then he wouldn’t touch it. But if it had
been clubbed on the head, fine.

The many eccentricities of Balakirev (1837–1910) were regarded with
amusement, horror and dismay by his contemporaries. Though, to be fair,
the fish thing wasn’t a mad obsession of his own. Formerly an atheist,
in his thirties he converted to an ultra-strict Russian Orthodox sect
with firm views on the proper way to kill fish. Unfortunately this
wasn’t the only subject on which it was inflexible. It was anti-Semitic
even by the standards of Czarist Russia, which is saying something. And
Balakirev outdid even his own clergy with his ranting about
‘Christ-killers’. So, no Jews at the dinner party — or anyone the
composer suspected of being Jewish simply because they disagreed with
his musical opinions.

That last detail is significant. Balakirev suffered from paranoia
exacerbated by a midlife nervous breakdown from which he never really
recovered. "
--
Frank Lekens

http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
https://franklekens.blogspot.nl/
Henk vT
2021-04-25 09:39:52 UTC
Reply
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Post by Frank Lekens
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by MELMOTH
"After playing Chopin, I feel as if I have wept over sins I never
committed and lamented tragedies to which I was a stranger" O. *WILDE*
"I would give for Chopin all the rest of music" *NIETZCHE*
"He was dying all his life" *BERLIOZ*
"Chopin is an indecisive man. He is faithful only to his cough. He
coughs with infinite grace." *MARIE D'AGOULT*
"This dear corpse...He made a single instrument speak the language of
the infinite. Only Mozart is superior to him." G. *SAND*
"Hysterical bastard." *BALAKIREV*
Wow - I had not heard that Balakirev quote before! It strikes me as
ironic, because there seems to be a fair degree of Chopin influence
in some of Balakirev's own piano music. Not to mention Balakirev's
arrangement for solo piano of the Romance from Chopin's First
Concerto. I wonder about the circumstances surrounding that
nasty-sounding remark.
IIRC Balakirew seems to have been a very unpleasant human being. He
probably didn't need special circumstances.
Henk
Reading the Wikipedia entry on Balakirev, I would say your
characterization is grossly over simplified.
If he's not just making it up, I suspect Henk read things about him
elsewhere -- in books or on the net, where especially Balakirevs
virulent anti-semitism is often remarked on.
E.g.
https://spectator.us/book-and-art/balakirev-beautiful-inventive-works-fashion/
"Anyone who invited the Russian composer Mily Balakirev to dinner had to
be jolly careful about the fish they served. How had it died? Balakirev
— mentor of Mussorgsky and Rimsky-Korsakov and regarded as the founder
of the Russian nationalist school of music — would want to know. If the
fish had perished on a hook, then he wouldn’t touch it. But if it had
been clubbed on the head, fine.
The many eccentricities of Balakirev (1837–1910) were regarded with
amusement, horror and dismay by his contemporaries. Though, to be fair,
the fish thing wasn’t a mad obsession of his own. Formerly an atheist,
in his thirties he converted to an ultra-strict Russian Orthodox sect
with firm views on the proper way to kill fish. Unfortunately this
wasn’t the only subject on which it was inflexible. It was anti-Semitic
even by the standards of Czarist Russia, which is saying something. And
Balakirev outdid even his own clergy with his ranting about
‘Christ-killers’. So, no Jews at the dinner party — or anyone the
composer suspected of being Jewish simply because they disagreed with
his musical opinions.
That last detail is significant. Balakirev suffered from paranoia
exacerbated by a midlife nervous breakdown from which he never really
recovered. "
--
Frank Lekens
http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
https://franklekens.blogspot.nl/
<g> The digital Britannica comes to my rescue:

Balakirev’s despotic nature and his tactlessness made him innumerable enemies, so that even his friends and young disciples came to resent his tutelage; and a series of personal and artistic misfortunes led to his almost complete withdrawal from the world of music during 1872–76 and his taking a post as a railway clerk. Balakirev had passed through a period of acute depression 10 years earlier; now he underwent a more severe crisis from which he emerged a totally changed man, a bigoted and superstitious Orthodox Christian.

Henk
Dan Koren
2021-04-25 10:03:08 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Balakirev’s despotic nature and his tactlessness made him
innumerable enemies, so that even his friends and young
disciples came to resent his tutelage; and a series of personal
and artistic misfortunes led to his almost complete withdrawal
from the world of music during 1872–76 and his taking a post
as a railway clerk. Balakirev had passed through a period of
acute depression 10 years earlier; now he underwent a more
severe crisis from which he emerged a totally changed man,
a bigoted and superstitious Orthodox Christian.
How about discussing his music, rather than the man?

dk
Henk vT
2021-04-25 10:46:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Henk vT
Balakirev’s despotic nature and his tactlessness made him
innumerable enemies, so that even his friends and young
disciples came to resent his tutelage; and a series of personal
and artistic misfortunes led to his almost complete withdrawal
from the world of music during 1872–76 and his taking a post
as a railway clerk. Balakirev had passed through a period of
acute depression 10 years earlier; now he underwent a more
severe crisis from which he emerged a totally changed man,
a bigoted and superstitious Orthodox Christian.
How about discussing his music, rather than the man?
dk
It depends. Balakirev discussed the man Chopin. Called him a hysterical bastard, according to Melmoth. It would be odd to reply with a discussion about his music.

But if you insist: His Op. 1 is a rather nice:



Henk
Dan Koren
2021-04-25 11:06:38 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Henk vT
Balakirev’s despotic nature and his tactlessness made him
innumerable enemies, so that even his friends and young
disciples came to resent his tutelage; and a series of personal
and artistic misfortunes led to his almost complete withdrawal
from the world of music during 1872–76 and his taking a post
as a railway clerk. Balakirev had passed through a period of
acute depression 10 years earlier; now he underwent a more
severe crisis from which he emerged a totally changed man,
a bigoted and superstitious Orthodox Christian.
How about discussing his music, rather than the man?
It depends. Balakirev discussed the man Chopin. Called him a
hysterical bastard, according to Melmoth. It would be odd to
reply with a discussion about his music.
http://youtu.be/QUVMt5Et2Gw
How about the piano concerto?

dk
Dan Koren
2021-04-25 11:08:44 UTC
Reply
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Post by Henk vT
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Henk vT
Balakirev’s despotic nature and his tactlessness made him
innumerable enemies, so that even his friends and young
disciples came to resent his tutelage; and a series of personal
and artistic misfortunes led to his almost complete withdrawal
from the world of music during 1872–76 and his taking a post
as a railway clerk. Balakirev had passed through a period of
acute depression 10 years earlier; now he underwent a more
severe crisis from which he emerged a totally changed man,
a bigoted and superstitious Orthodox Christian.
How about discussing his music, rather than the man?
It depends. Balakirev discussed the man Chopin. Called him a
hysterical bastard, according to Melmoth. It would be odd to
reply with a discussion about his music.
http://youtu.be/QUVMt5Et2Gw
How about the 2nd piano concerto?

dk
Henk vT
2021-04-25 11:55:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Henk vT
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Henk vT
Balakirev’s despotic nature and his tactlessness made him
innumerable enemies, so that even his friends and young
disciples came to resent his tutelage; and a series of personal
and artistic misfortunes led to his almost complete withdrawal
from the world of music during 1872–76 and his taking a post
as a railway clerk. Balakirev had passed through a period of
acute depression 10 years earlier; now he underwent a more
severe crisis from which he emerged a totally changed man,
a bigoted and superstitious Orthodox Christian.
How about discussing his music, rather than the man?
It depends. Balakirev discussed the man Chopin. Called him a
hysterical bastard, according to Melmoth. It would be odd to
reply with a discussion about his music.
http://youtu.be/QUVMt5Et2Gw
How about the 2nd piano concerto?
dk
<g> That had to be completed by Lyapunov, a less gifted composer. The Zilberstein version is not bad.

Henk
Dan Koren
2021-04-27 05:02:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Henk vT
Post by Dan Koren
How about the 2nd piano concerto?
<g> That had to be completed by Lyapunov, a less
gifted composer. The Zilberstein version is not bad.
Many great works were completed by someone other
than the original composer -- not the least of which is
Mozart's Requiem.

dk
MELMOTH
2021-04-25 11:19:56 UTC
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Post by Dan Koren
How about discussing his music, rather than the man?
https://www.amazon.fr/s?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&i=classical&k=balakirev&ref=nb_sb_noss_1&url=search-alias=classical
Al Eisner
2021-04-27 03:10:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Balakirev’s despotic nature and his tactlessness made him
innumerable enemies, so that even his friends and young
disciples came to resent his tutelage; and a series of personal
and artistic misfortunes led to his almost complete withdrawal
from the world of music during 1872–76 and his taking a post
as a railway clerk. Balakirev had passed through a period of
acute depression 10 years earlier; now he underwent a more
severe crisis from which he emerged a totally changed man,
a bigoted and superstitious Orthodox Christian.
How about discussing his music, rather than the man?
dk>
Under a thread titled "CHOPIN"? Don't be ridiculous!
--
Al Eisner
Frank Berger
2021-04-27 03:22:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan Koren
Post by Henk vT
Balakirev’s despotic nature and his tactlessness made him
innumerable enemies, so that even his friends and young
disciples came to resent his tutelage; and a series of personal
and artistic misfortunes led to his almost complete withdrawal
from the world of music during 1872–76 and his taking a post
as a railway clerk. Balakirev had passed through a period of
acute depression 10 years earlier; now he underwent a more
severe crisis from which he emerged a totally changed man,
a bigoted and superstitious Orthodox Christian.
How about discussing his music, rather than the man?
dk>
Under a thread titled "CHOPIN"?  Don't be ridiculous!
Does the mention of Orthodox Christian suggest that the author of the entry things that bigotry and superstition are characteristic of Orthodox Christians? Or is it spurious? At this point I'd rather have a beer with Balakirev that that guy.
Frank Lekens
2021-04-25 10:01:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Henk vT
Post by Frank Lekens
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by MELMOTH
"After playing Chopin, I feel as if I have wept over sins I never
committed and lamented tragedies to which I was a stranger" O. *WILDE*
"I would give for Chopin all the rest of music" *NIETZCHE*
"He was dying all his life" *BERLIOZ*
"Chopin is an indecisive man. He is faithful only to his cough. He
coughs with infinite grace." *MARIE D'AGOULT*
"This dear corpse...He made a single instrument speak the language of
the infinite. Only Mozart is superior to him." G. *SAND*
"Hysterical bastard." *BALAKIREV*
Wow - I had not heard that Balakirev quote before! It strikes me as
ironic, because there seems to be a fair degree of Chopin influence
in some of Balakirev's own piano music. Not to mention Balakirev's
arrangement for solo piano of the Romance from Chopin's First
Concerto. I wonder about the circumstances surrounding that
nasty-sounding remark.
IIRC Balakirew seems to have been a very unpleasant human being. He
probably didn't need special circumstances.
Henk
Reading the Wikipedia entry on Balakirev, I would say your
characterization is grossly over simplified.
If he's not just making it up, I suspect Henk read things about him
elsewhere -- in books or on the net, where especially Balakirevs
virulent anti-semitism is often remarked on.
E.g.
https://spectator.us/book-and-art/balakirev-beautiful-inventive-works-fashion/
"Anyone who invited the Russian composer Mily Balakirev to dinner had to
be jolly careful about the fish they served. How had it died? Balakirev
— mentor of Mussorgsky and Rimsky-Korsakov and regarded as the founder
of the Russian nationalist school of music — would want to know. If the
fish had perished on a hook, then he wouldn’t touch it. But if it had
been clubbed on the head, fine.
The many eccentricities of Balakirev (1837–1910) were regarded with
amusement, horror and dismay by his contemporaries. Though, to be fair,
the fish thing wasn’t a mad obsession of his own. Formerly an atheist,
in his thirties he converted to an ultra-strict Russian Orthodox sect
with firm views on the proper way to kill fish. Unfortunately this
wasn’t the only subject on which it was inflexible. It was anti-Semitic
even by the standards of Czarist Russia, which is saying something. And
Balakirev outdid even his own clergy with his ranting about
‘Christ-killers’. So, no Jews at the dinner party — or anyone the
composer suspected of being Jewish simply because they disagreed with
his musical opinions.
That last detail is significant. Balakirev suffered from paranoia
exacerbated by a midlife nervous breakdown from which he never really
recovered. "
--
Frank Lekens
http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
https://franklekens.blogspot.nl/
Balakirev’s despotic nature and his tactlessness made him innumerable enemies, so that even his friends and young disciples came to resent his tutelage; and a series of personal and artistic misfortunes led to his almost complete withdrawal from the world of music during 1872–76 and his taking a post as a railway clerk. Balakirev had passed through a period of acute depression 10 years earlier; now he underwent a more severe crisis from which he emerged a totally changed man, a bigoted and superstitious Orthodox Christian.
Henk
An interesting illustration between the sometimes rather bland
"objectivity" of the new crowd-sourced wisdom and old school compendiums
of knowledge written and revised by a paid staff.

Not saying Wikipedia is worthless, far from it, but it does have its
drawbacks. (Especially in the smaller languages, where the crowd is that
much smaller and its wisdom sometimes correspondingly... let's say more
erratic. The English Wikipedia is frequently quite marvelous, of course.)
--
Frank Lekens

http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
https://franklekens.blogspot.nl/
Henk vT
2021-04-25 10:39:30 UTC
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Post by Frank Lekens
Post by Henk vT
Post by Frank Lekens
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by MELMOTH
"After playing Chopin, I feel as if I have wept over sins I never
committed and lamented tragedies to which I was a stranger" O. *WILDE*
"I would give for Chopin all the rest of music" *NIETZCHE*
"He was dying all his life" *BERLIOZ*
"Chopin is an indecisive man. He is faithful only to his cough. He
coughs with infinite grace." *MARIE D'AGOULT*
"This dear corpse...He made a single instrument speak the language of
the infinite. Only Mozart is superior to him." G. *SAND*
"Hysterical bastard." *BALAKIREV*
Wow - I had not heard that Balakirev quote before! It strikes me as
ironic, because there seems to be a fair degree of Chopin influence
in some of Balakirev's own piano music. Not to mention Balakirev's
arrangement for solo piano of the Romance from Chopin's First
Concerto. I wonder about the circumstances surrounding that
nasty-sounding remark.
IIRC Balakirew seems to have been a very unpleasant human being. He
probably didn't need special circumstances.
Henk
Reading the Wikipedia entry on Balakirev, I would say your
characterization is grossly over simplified.
If he's not just making it up, I suspect Henk read things about him
elsewhere -- in books or on the net, where especially Balakirevs
virulent anti-semitism is often remarked on.
E.g.
https://spectator.us/book-and-art/balakirev-beautiful-inventive-works-fashion/
"Anyone who invited the Russian composer Mily Balakirev to dinner had to
be jolly careful about the fish they served. How had it died? Balakirev
— mentor of Mussorgsky and Rimsky-Korsakov and regarded as the founder
of the Russian nationalist school of music — would want to know. If the
fish had perished on a hook, then he wouldn’t touch it. But if it had
been clubbed on the head, fine.
The many eccentricities of Balakirev (1837–1910) were regarded with
amusement, horror and dismay by his contemporaries. Though, to be fair,
the fish thing wasn’t a mad obsession of his own. Formerly an atheist,
in his thirties he converted to an ultra-strict Russian Orthodox sect
with firm views on the proper way to kill fish. Unfortunately this
wasn’t the only subject on which it was inflexible. It was anti-Semitic
even by the standards of Czarist Russia, which is saying something. And
Balakirev outdid even his own clergy with his ranting about
‘Christ-killers’. So, no Jews at the dinner party — or anyone the
composer suspected of being Jewish simply because they disagreed with
his musical opinions.
That last detail is significant. Balakirev suffered from paranoia
exacerbated by a midlife nervous breakdown from which he never really
recovered. "
--
Frank Lekens
http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
https://franklekens.blogspot.nl/
Balakirev’s despotic nature and his tactlessness made him innumerable enemies, so that even his friends and young disciples came to resent his tutelage; and a series of personal and artistic misfortunes led to his almost complete withdrawal from the world of music during 1872–76 and his taking a post as a railway clerk. Balakirev had passed through a period of acute depression 10 years earlier; now he underwent a more severe crisis from which he emerged a totally changed man, a bigoted and superstitious Orthodox Christian.
Henk
An interesting illustration between the sometimes rather bland
"objectivity" of the new crowd-sourced wisdom and old school compendiums
of knowledge written and revised by a paid staff.
Not saying Wikipedia is worthless, far from it, but it does have its
drawbacks. (Especially in the smaller languages, where the crowd is that
much smaller and its wisdom sometimes correspondingly... let's say more
erratic. The English Wikipedia is frequently quite marvelous, of course.)
--
Frank Lekens
http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
https://franklekens.blogspot.nl/
It's from the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

Henk
Frank Berger
2021-04-25 12:54:55 UTC
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Post by Frank Berger
Post by Henk vT
Post by Chris from Lafayette
Post by MELMOTH
"After playing Chopin, I feel as if I have wept over sins I never
committed and lamented tragedies to which I was a stranger" O. *WILDE*
"I would give for Chopin all the rest of music" *NIETZCHE*
"He was dying all his life" *BERLIOZ*
"Chopin is an indecisive man. He is faithful only to his cough. He
coughs with infinite grace." *MARIE D'AGOULT*
"This dear corpse...He made a single instrument speak the language of
the infinite. Only Mozart is superior to him." G. *SAND*
"Hysterical bastard." *BALAKIREV*
Wow - I had not heard that Balakirev quote before! It strikes me as ironic, because there seems to be a fair degree of Chopin influence in some of Balakirev's own piano music. Not to mention Balakirev's arrangement for solo piano of the Romance from Chopin's First Concerto. I wonder about the circumstances surrounding that nasty-sounding remark.
IIRC Balakirew seems to have been a very unpleasant human being. He probably didn't need special circumstances.
Henk
Reading the Wikipedia entry on Balakirev, I would say your characterization is grossly over simplified.
If he's not just making it up, I suspect Henk read things about him elsewhere -- in books or on the net, where especially Balakirevs virulent anti-semitism is often remarked on.
E.g.
https://spectator.us/book-and-art/balakirev-beautiful-inventive-works-fashion/
"Anyone who invited the Russian composer Mily Balakirev to dinner had to be jolly careful about the fish they served. How had it died? Balakirev — mentor of Mussorgsky and Rimsky-Korsakov and regarded as the founder of the Russian nationalist school of music — would want to know. If the fish had perished on a hook, then he wouldn’t touch it. But if it had been clubbed on the head, fine.
The many eccentricities of Balakirev (1837–1910) were regarded with amusement, horror and dismay by his contemporaries. Though, to be fair, the fish thing wasn’t a mad obsession of his own. Formerly an atheist, in his thirties he converted to an ultra-strict Russian Orthodox sect with firm views on the proper way to kill fish. Unfortunately this wasn’t the only subject on which it was inflexible. It was anti-Semitic even by the standards of Czarist Russia, which is saying something. And Balakirev outdid even his own clergy with his ranting about ‘Christ-killers’. So, no Jews at the dinner party — or anyone the composer suspected of being Jewish simply because they disagreed with his musical opinions.
That last detail is significant. Balakirev suffered from paranoia exacerbated by a midlife nervous breakdown from which he never really recovered. "
OK, he's started seeming unpleasant.
gggg gggg
2021-04-27 03:20:27 UTC
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Post by MELMOTH
"After playing Chopin, I feel as if I have wept over sins I never
committed and lamented tragedies to which I was a stranger" O. *WILDE*
"I would give for Chopin all the rest of music" *NIETZCHE*
"He was dying all his life" *BERLIOZ*
"Chopin is an indecisive man. He is faithful only to his cough. He
coughs with infinite grace." *MARIE D'AGOULT*
"This dear corpse...He made a single instrument speak the language of
the infinite. Only Mozart is superior to him." G. *SAND*
"Hysterical bastard." *BALAKIREV*
'I love crying over Chopin. Especially when it's nice outside."
*TIMSIT* (French humorist)
According to this recent book:

- The sale of Chopin recordings holds firm, even as others go into decline.

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22the+sale+of+Chopin+recordings+holds+firm%2C+even+as+others+go+into+decline%22
gggg gggg
2021-10-14 03:18:28 UTC
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Post by MELMOTH
"After playing Chopin, I feel as if I have wept over sins I never
committed and lamented tragedies to which I was a stranger" O. *WILDE*
"I would give for Chopin all the rest of music" *NIETZCHE*
"He was dying all his life" *BERLIOZ*
"Chopin is an indecisive man. He is faithful only to his cough. He
coughs with infinite grace." *MARIE D'AGOULT*
"This dear corpse...He made a single instrument speak the language of
the infinite. Only Mozart is superior to him." G. *SAND*
"Hysterical bastard." *BALAKIREV*
'I love crying over Chopin. Especially when it's nice outside."
*TIMSIT* (French humorist)
2021 Chopin bio:

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical/c/sLm0WvwFPG8

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