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Major Curtis Scandal
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p***@yahoo.com
2019-07-25 12:20:49 UTC
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Just saw this. I think it broke this morning:

https://www.inquirer.com/news/a/lara-st-john-sexual-abuse-jascha-brodsky-curtis-institute-philadelphia-20190725.html
HT
2019-07-25 15:41:53 UTC
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Never heard of Lara StJohn. Now I have ...

Henk
s***@nycap.rr.com
2019-07-25 16:12:48 UTC
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Post by HT
Never heard of Lara StJohn. Now I have ...
Henk
Terrific violinist. One of my favorites.
What a horrible ordeal she went through. And at age 14 too.

MIFrost
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-25 16:08:17 UTC
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I would never have seen this otherwise. Thanks. St John sends an powerful message to arts administrators: think twice before you 'blow off' a youngster who comes to you for help, because she may grow up to haunt your twilight years.
c***@gmail.com
2019-07-25 16:16:44 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
I would never have seen this otherwise. Thanks. St John sends an powerful message to arts administrators: think twice before you 'blow off' a youngster who comes to you for help, because she may grow up to haunt your twilight years.
I agree with respect to the message. What an awful story; it's good that Ms. St. John has brought it to light. Blasts from the past:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128820860
https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2010/07/28/128831530/selling-sex-and-symphonies-the-image-of-women-in-classical-music

AC
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-25 16:25:37 UTC
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And in another arena entirely. I would commend the way the Harvard FAS Dean recently handled the disciplining of a genius-grant economics professor as a model of how administrators should protect the powerless in their charge: not necessary always to fire the perpetrator if you can administer a corresponding dose of powerlessness in its stead.
Bob Harper
2019-07-25 16:22:29 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
I would never have seen this otherwise. Thanks. St John sends an powerful message to arts administrators: think twice before you 'blow off' a youngster who comes to you for help, because she may grow up to haunt your twilight years.
I have no opinion about the truth of the allegations, but I would note
that Ms. St. John has not been above using her person for commercial
purposes. She's a fine violinist, but was this cover (her first) necessary?

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-Lara-St-John/dp/B000003Y32/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=lara+st+john&qid=1564071483&s=gateway&sr=8-6

Bob Harper
s***@nycap.rr.com
2019-07-25 16:30:39 UTC
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Post by Bob Harper
Post by j***@gmail.com
I would never have seen this otherwise. Thanks. St John sends an powerful message to arts administrators: think twice before you 'blow off' a youngster who comes to you for help, because she may grow up to haunt your twilight years.
I have no opinion about the truth of the allegations, but I would note
that Ms. St. John has not been above using her person for commercial
purposes. She's a fine violinist, but was this cover (her first) necessary?
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-Lara-St-John/dp/B000003Y32/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=lara+st+john&qid=1564071483&s=gateway&sr=8-6
Bob Harper
In my opinion, the album cover you're referring to does not impugn the claims Ms St John has made. It's tame by any standard. Please don't malign the victim here.

MIFrost
msw design
2019-07-25 16:59:47 UTC
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Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
In my opinion, the album cover you're referring to does not impugn the claims Ms St John has made. It's tame by any standard. Please don't malign the victim here.
If you believe that the law applies equally to all people then whether it is tame or not is irrelevant. There are plenty of legal defenses that amount to "the victim's behavior after event proves that this wasn't exploitation, but something they deserved". The album cover has no place in judging the evidence around this claim, period.
Todd Michel McComb
2019-07-25 18:00:26 UTC
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Post by msw design
The album cover has no place in judging the evidence around this
claim, period.
Actually, didn't the album cover come *after* the abuse?

If one were to believe that such things are problematic, it could
easily be viewed as a consequence.
wkasimer
2019-07-25 18:15:36 UTC
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Post by Todd Michel McComb
Actually, didn't the album cover come *after* the abuse?
By about a decade.
s***@nycap.rr.com
2019-07-26 14:52:27 UTC
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Post by msw design
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
In my opinion, the album cover you're referring to does not impugn the claims Ms St John has made. It's tame by any standard. Please don't malign the victim here.
If you believe that the law applies equally to all people then whether it is tame or not is irrelevant. There are plenty of legal defenses that amount to "the victim's behavior after event proves that this wasn't exploitation, but something they deserved". The album cover has no place in judging the evidence around this claim, period.
Yes. I agree.

MIFrost
n***@optonline.net
2019-07-28 15:17:35 UTC
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Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
Post by Bob Harper
Post by j***@gmail.com
I would never have seen this otherwise. Thanks. St John sends an powerful message to arts administrators: think twice before you 'blow off' a youngster who comes to you for help, because she may grow up to haunt your twilight years.
I have no opinion about the truth of the allegations, but I would note
that Ms. St. John has not been above using her person for commercial
purposes. She's a fine violinist, but was this cover (her first) necessary?
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-Lara-St-John/dp/B000003Y32/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=lara+st+john&qid=1564071483&s=gateway&sr=8-6
Bob Harper
In my opinion, the album cover you're referring to does not impugn the claims Ms St John has made. It's tame by any standard. Please don't malign the victim here.
"Standard", schmandred, it fails to illustrate MODESTY on her part and overall I find it hurtful to her cause. Even though it's a completely side issue, it still sticks in my mind. There are dozens of young attractive women soloists, and except for maybe a few, none have ever posed in her fashion.
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
MIFrost
Frank Berger
2019-07-25 16:50:00 UTC
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Post by Bob Harper
Post by j***@gmail.com
I would never have seen this otherwise. Thanks. St John sends an
powerful message to arts administrators: think twice before you 'blow
off' a youngster who comes to you for help, because she may grow up to
haunt your twilight years.
I have no opinion about the truth of the allegations, but I would note
that Ms. St. John has not been above using her person for commercial
purposes. She's a fine violinist, but was this cover (her first) necessary?
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-Lara-St-John/dp/B000003Y32/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=lara+st+john&qid=1564071483&s=gateway&sr=8-6
Bob Harper
Your in trouble now, Bob.
Bob Harper
2019-07-26 02:47:26 UTC
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Post by Frank Berger
Post by Bob Harper
Post by j***@gmail.com
I would never have seen this otherwise. Thanks. St John sends an
powerful message to arts administrators: think twice before you 'blow
off' a youngster who comes to you for help, because she may grow up
to haunt your twilight years.
I have no opinion about the truth of the allegations, but I would note
that Ms. St. John has not been above using her person for commercial
purposes. She's a fine violinist, but was this cover (her first) necessary?
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-Lara-St-John/dp/B000003Y32/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=lara+st+john&qid=1564071483&s=gateway&sr=8-6
Bob Harper
Your in trouble now, Bob.
I figured so.

Bob Harper
msw design
2019-07-25 16:52:14 UTC
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Post by Bob Harper
I have no opinion about the truth of the allegations, but I would note
that Ms. St. John has not been above using her person for commercial
purposes. She's a fine violinist, but was this cover (her first) necessary?
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-Lara-St-John/dp/B000003Y32/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=lara+st+john&qid=1564071483&s=gateway&sr=8-6
Bob Harper
That's some choice ugly, Bob. You can do better in this situation than finding something that you can blame her for.

There is no shortage of people who wish to judge the veracity of claims like this through the prism of character, who behave as if the only people entitled to justice are those we like and approve of. That's what this sounds like.

Saying this also suggests some willful ignorance about how much power artists have in the way they are presented to the public. It is doubtful that it was her choice alone; perhaps she would also have something interesting to report about what an abusive relationship and disinterest of those in power taught her about who she was (to those in power) and who people wanted her to be. You can't imagine it was a healthy influence in the situations when she did have choices. But you don't know one way or another who was responsible for the album cover, so the kind thing to do is just can it for now.
Oscar
2019-07-25 17:10:28 UTC
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Interesting report. Peter Dobrin is apparently quite the gossip-monger there in Phila., Pa. That, of course, does not dismiss out-of-hand the blockbuster allegations by Ms. St. John. Having now just read this, I feel especially guilty as last night I found a sealed, mint copy of James Levine Celebrating 40 Years at The Met, the 32CD set from 2010. Way OOP and I did have a moment there in the store where I pondered my moral obligation to not traffic in smut, but since it was technically used (trade-in) I did buy it. Just for the Wozzeck, Pelleas et Melisande and Rossignol. Levine is a great conductor, but man I feel dirty. I don’t think these St. John allegations match up to anywhere near the level of Levine, but it is definitely over-the-line sexual harassment, if true. Sad.
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-25 17:39:55 UTC
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I finally read this PI story thru to the end. There the reader learns that she has accused Brodsky of a crime, molesting, then raping her at age 14. That she reported the molestation but not the rape to an administrator with two of her classmates and was told she would not be believed 'cuz they were just kids and Brodsky was a mainstay of the faculty. The two classmates at the mtg corroborate her account.
wkasimer
2019-07-25 18:16:50 UTC
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On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 1:10:30 PM UTC-4, Oscar wrote:
\
Post by Oscar
I don’t think these St. John allegations match up to anywhere near the level of Levine,
Oscar, she was 14. Levine, at least, abused young adults, not children.
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-25 18:24:34 UTC
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The administrator St. John accuses is still alive, has written about the evils of covering up sexual abuse at elite private institutions including the Curtis Institute but denies St. John ever told him Brodsky had been been anything but "touchy-feely" with her and states that subsequently he told Brodsky to be more mindful of decorum around his female students. Further than that, he would not go other than to call St. John's account of their meeting "nonsense."
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-25 20:29:15 UTC
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THE PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER

The Curtis Institute admin responded to today's story in an email to its community calling for silence.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/lara-st-john-curtis-institute-sexual-abuse-response-jascha-brodsky-philadelphia-20190725.html
Bozo
2019-07-25 22:47:24 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
THE PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER
The Curtis Institute admin responded to today's story in an email to its community calling for silence.
???!!!
Andrew Clarke
2019-07-26 13:27:10 UTC
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Post by Oscar
Interesting report. Peter Dobrin is apparently quite the gossip-monger there in Phila., Pa. That, of course, does not dismiss out-of-hand the blockbuster allegations by Ms. St. John. Having now just read this, I feel especially guilty as last night I found a sealed, mint copy of James Levine Celebrating 40 Years at The Met, the 32CD set from 2010. Way OOP and I did have a moment there in the store where I pondered my moral obligation to not traffic in smut, but since it was technically used (trade-in) I did buy it. Just for the Wozzeck, Pelleas et Melisande and Rossignol. Levine is a great conductor, but man I feel dirty. I don’t think these St. John allegations match up to anywhere near the level of Levine, but it is definitely over-the-line sexual harassment, if true. Sad.
James Levine might have been 'smutty' but surely this cannot apply to the music he conducted and recorded? Great music remains great music, and great performances remain great performances, no matter how scurrilous the sex life of the conductor - or the composer - might have been, surely?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 13:30:42 UTC
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On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 8:54:51 AM UTC-4, Andrew Clarke wrote:
. . . why didn't the St John family bring criminal charges at the time?
Post by Andrew Clarke
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Her brother states that he didn't know. Presumably then her parents didn't know.

But Curtis Dean Robert Fitzpatrick has stated that what St. John, then 15, told him her teacher had done to her only amounted to being "touchy-feely" (his words).

So did Fitzpatrick subsequently inform St. John's parents that a teacher had been, as he says, "touchy-feely" with their 14-year-old daughter? Apparently not.
Oscar
2019-07-26 15:48:41 UTC
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Post by Andrew Clarke
James Levine might have been 'smutty' but surely this cannot apply to the music he conducted and
recorded? Great music remains great music, and great performances remain great performances, no matter
how scurrilous the sex life of the conductor - or the composer - might have been, surely?
I bought the set, didn't I? And happy I did. Levine's Wozzeck in that Celebrating 40 Years at The Met is something to cherish. Now, admittedly, my previous post was a bit facetiously overblown, but all I was trying to say is, I was in a record store not even 12 hours before and had just seriously thought about the allegations brought against Mr. Levine's allegations. Then, with the publications of this new story, well, I think it's safe to say we have a new No.2 in the Top Ten Classical Music #metoo standings, displacing Dutoit.
Post by Andrew Clarke
Perhaps you've gone to far here. She was 14, after all. I think the
point is that there is no way to know with certainty the truth of her
accusation. We can probably all agree on some probability (75-90%) that
she is being truthful (and accurate), but as frustrating as it may be we
simply don't know for sure.
I concur with you, Frank, btw.

And Bob, bad boy.
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 15:52:12 UTC
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On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 11:04:51 AM UTC-4, ***@nycap.rr.com wrote:
She didn't make the allegation "many years after." She went to the administrator right away. She did not go public until now ...
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
MIFrost
Right, and that was 6 years later, after she had contacted the Curtis Administration privately in 2013 and spilled the secret she had kept for so long. Subsequently, Curtis was unable to resolve the matter privately so she went public with her story.

But back in 1986, the then head of the Curtis Institute, whom she had turned to for help as a 15-year-old kid, apparently failed to notify St. John's parents of what today he says he regarded as her teacher just being "touchy-feely". "Touch feely" are his words: he is alive, presumably accountable for what he did or didn't say or do, and now calls her story "Nonsense".

In fact, I believe the recalcitrant former Curtis dean, NOT the long-dead Brodsky is the real target of this stunningly reported Philadelphia Inquirer wtory.
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 15:55:53 UTC
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On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 11:04:51 AM UTC-4, ***@nycap.rr.com wrote:
She didn't make the allegation "many years after." She went to the administrator right away. She did not go public until now ...
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
MIFrost
Right, and that was 6 years after 2013, when she had contacted the Curtis Administration privately. Subsequently, Curtis was unable to resolve the matter privately.

But back in 1986, the then head of the Curtis Institute, whom she had turned to for help as a 15-year-old kid, apparently failed to notify St. John's parents of what today he says he regarded as her teacher just being "touchy-feely". "Touchy feely"? Those are his words: he is alive, presumably accountable for what he did or didn't say or do, but now dismisses her story as "Nonsense".

In fact, I believe the recalcitrant former Curtis dean, NOT the long-dead Brodsky is the real target of this stunningly reported Philadelphia Inquirer wtory.
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 16:19:36 UTC
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On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 11:04:51 AM UTC-4, ***@nycap.rr.com wrote:
She didn't make the allegation "many years after." She went to the administrator right away. She did not go public until now ...
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
MIFrost
Right, and that was 6 years after 2013, when she had contacted the Curtis Administration privately. Subsequently, Curtis was unable to resolve the matter privately. So she went public only yeaterday.

But back in 1986, Robert Fitzpatrick, the then head of the Curtis Institute, whom she had turned to for help as a 15-year-old kid, apparently failed to notify St. John's parents of what today he says he regarded as her teacher just being "touchy-feely".

"Touchy feely"? Those are Fitzpatrick's words: he is alive, presumably accountable for what he did or didn't say or do, and now calls her story "Nonsense". So, just a touch feely was Brodsky? Nonsense.

I think it is none other than Robert Fitzpatrick, the arrogant former Curtis dean, NOT the long-dead Brodsky who cuts a pathetic figure in most of the accounts abused Curtis girls and women level at him, is the real target of this stunningly reported Philadelphia Inquirer report.
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 16:22:14 UTC
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On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 11:04:51 AM UTC-4, ***@nycap.rr.com wrote:
She didn't make the allegation "many years after." She went to the administrator right away. She did not go public until now ...
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
MIFrost
Right, and that was 6 years after 2013, when she had contacted the Curtis Administration privately. Subsequently, Curtis was unable to resolve the matter privately. So she went public only yeaterday.

But back in 1986, Robert Fitzpatrick, the then head of the Curtis Institute, whom she had turned to for help as a 15-year-old kid, apparently failed to notify St. John's parents of what today he says he regarded as her teacher just being "touchy-feely".

"Touchy feely"? Those are Fitzpatrick's words: he is alive, presumably accountable for what he did or didn't say or do, and now calls her story "Nonsense". So, just a touch feely was Brodsky? Nonsense.

I think it is none other than Robert Fitzpatrick, the arrogant former Curtis dean, NOT the long-dead Brodsky who cuts a pathetic figure in most of the accounts abused Curtis girls and women level at him, that is the real target of this stunningly reported Philadelphia Inquirer report.
Oscar
2019-07-26 16:27:33 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
In fact, I believe the recalcitrant former Curtis dean, NOT the long-dead Brodsky is the real target of this
stunningly reported Philadelphia Inquirer wtory.
And Gary Graffman's wife, too?? 'Call-out' culture is getting boring. I don't know how else to put it. Especially when it involves the deceased, or someone who is expected to remember clear as day what happened 33 years ago on a Tuesday in December. As Frank said, we can agree there is a betting man's chance the allegations against Mr. Brodsky by Ms. St. John (not 'Miss' St. John, sexist pig!) are true—contemporaneously corroborated accounts, statements by others involved, known behaviors, etc.—but we will simply never know the entire story. This isn't exactly Sally Hemings after the introduction of DNA technology.
Frank Berger
2019-07-26 16:28:04 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
She didn't make the allegation "many years after." She went to the administrator right away. She did not go public until now ...
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
MIFrost
Right, and that was 6 years after 2013, when she had contacted the Curtis Administration privately. Subsequently, Curtis was unable to resolve the matter privately. So she went public only yeaterday.
But back in 1986, Robert Fitzpatrick, the then head of the Curtis Institute, whom she had turned to for help as a 15-year-old kid, apparently failed to notify St. John's parents of what today he says he regarded as her teacher just being "touchy-feely".
"Touchy feely"? Those are Fitzpatrick's words: he is alive, presumably accountable for what he did or didn't say or do, and now calls her story "Nonsense". So, just a touch feely was Brodsky? Nonsense.
I think it is none other than Robert Fitzpatrick, the arrogant former Curtis dean, NOT the long-dead Brodsky who cuts a pathetic figure in most of the accounts abused Curtis girls and women level at him, that is the real target of this stunningly reported Philadelphia Inquirer report.
Is there some reason you posted the same thing 6 times?
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 16:48:03 UTC
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Revisions, Sorry about that. I don't usually post here and am using an ancient cellphone. Thought I had deleted all the duplicates.
Frank Berger
2019-07-26 16:53:51 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
Revisions, Sorry about that. I don't usually post here and am using an ancient cellphone. Thought I had deleted all the duplicates.
You can't really delete a usenet posting. You may see it disappear from
your on service-provider's server, but it will spread everywhere.
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 17:00:07 UTC
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Didna know that. Don't even really know what usenet is. Please accept my apologies. Will be much more careful should I ever do a long post again.
Oscar
2019-07-26 17:05:48 UTC
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His real name is Frank Rizzo. This better be the first _and_ last time!
Frank Berger
2019-07-26 17:17:09 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
Didna know that. Don't even really know what usenet is. Please accept my apologies. Will be much more careful should I ever do a long post again.
You are using google groups (I assume) to access Usenet. You can look
it up if you want to know what Usenet is.
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 17:36:48 UTC
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Indeed, I now recall thinking usenet was long gone. My bad.

I haven't really bothered to post much of anything here in years (insult culture being so dominant at one time) but the PI story grabbed my attention b/c I am a teacher. Abuses of students by those in authority over them (thankfully much less severe than those detailed in the news article) do occur, kids have little recourse and parents are often left out of the loop.
Bob Harper
2019-07-26 02:53:18 UTC
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Post by msw design
Post by Bob Harper
I have no opinion about the truth of the allegations, but I would note
that Ms. St. John has not been above using her person for commercial
purposes. She's a fine violinist, but was this cover (her first) necessary?
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-Lara-St-John/dp/B000003Y32/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=lara+st+john&qid=1564071483&s=gateway&sr=8-6
Bob Harper
That's some choice ugly, Bob. You can do better in this situation than finding something that you can blame her for.
There is no shortage of people who wish to judge the veracity of claims like this through the prism of character, who behave as if the only people entitled to justice are those we like and approve of. That's what this sounds like.
Saying this also suggests some willful ignorance about how much power artists have in the way they are presented to the public. It is doubtful that it was her choice alone; perhaps she would also have something interesting to report about what an abusive relationship and disinterest of those in power taught her about who she was (to those in power) and who people wanted her to be. You can't imagine it was a healthy influence in the situations when she did have choices. But you don't know one way or another who was responsible for the album cover, so the kind thing to do is just can it for now.
As I made clear, I make no judgment about the charge; I simply don't
know. I am not 'blaming' Ms. St. John, though I suppose I am calling
into question her judgment with respect to the album cover. Unless we
are to believe that she was powerless, she could have, had she objected
to it, told those who proposed it no. Would that have harmed her career?
Perhaps. But we all have to make choices. I reject the notion that I am
guilty of....what exactly?

Bob Harper
Frank Berger
2019-07-26 03:03:44 UTC
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Post by Bob Harper
Post by msw design
Post by Bob Harper
I have no opinion about the truth of the allegations, but I would note
that Ms. St. John has not been above using her person for commercial
purposes. She's a fine violinist, but was this cover (her first) necessary?
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-Lara-St-John/dp/B000003Y32/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=lara+st+john&qid=1564071483&s=gateway&sr=8-6
Bob Harper
That's some choice ugly, Bob. You can do better in this situation than
finding something that you can blame her for.
There is no shortage of people who wish to judge the veracity of
claims like this through the prism of character, who behave as if the
only people entitled to justice are those we like and approve of.
That's what this sounds like.
Saying this also suggests some willful ignorance about how much power
artists have in the way they are presented to the public. It is
doubtful that it was her choice alone; perhaps she would also have
something interesting to report about what an abusive relationship and
disinterest of those in power taught her about who she was (to those
in power) and who people wanted her to be. You can't imagine it was a
healthy influence in the situations when she did have choices. But you
don't know one way or another who was responsible for the album cover,
so the kind thing to do is just can it for now.
As I made clear, I make no judgment about the charge; I simply don't
know. I am not 'blaming' Ms. St. John, though I suppose I am calling
into question her judgment with respect to the album cover. Unless we
are to believe that she was powerless, she could have, had she objected
to it, told those who proposed it no. Would that have harmed her career?
Perhaps. But we all have to make choices. I reject the notion that I am
guilty of....what exactly?
Bob Harpers
We are supposed to believe all charges of harassment/abuse/rape
unconditionally. This is identity politics. Because many women have
been abused by many men, all men are guilty of abusing all women. It's
not enough to believe that most such charges are true. You have to
believe all of them. It's not enough to have conditional symphony for
Ms. St. John (i.e. conditional on the truth of the charges). It's not
possible for the accuser to by lying or confused. This is only the court
of public opinion. The accused have no rights.
dk
2019-07-26 06:55:07 UTC
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Post by Bob Harper
As I made clear, I make no judgment about the charge; I simply don't
know. I am not 'blaming' Ms. St. John, though I suppose I am calling
into question her judgment with respect to the album cover. Unless we
are to believe that she was powerless, she could have, had she objected
to it, told those who proposed it no. Would that have harmed her career?
Perhaps. But we all have to make choices. I reject the notion that I am
guilty of....what exactly?
Putting your foot in your mouth?

dk
Andrew Clarke
2019-07-26 12:44:20 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by Bob Harper
As I made clear, I make no judgment about the charge; I simply don't
know. I am not 'blaming' Ms. St. John, though I suppose I am calling
into question her judgment with respect to the album cover. Unless we
are to believe that she was powerless, she could have, had she objected
to it, told those who proposed it no. Would that have harmed her career?
Perhaps. But we all have to make choices. I reject the notion that I am
guilty of....what exactly?
Putting your foot in your mouth?
Miss St John had the option of saying 'No". And she didn't. No foot no mouth.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Frank Berger
2019-07-26 12:55:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by dk
Post by Bob Harper
As I made clear, I make no judgment about the charge; I simply don't
know. I am not 'blaming' Ms. St. John, though I suppose I am calling
into question her judgment with respect to the album cover. Unless we
are to believe that she was powerless, she could have, had she objected
to it, told those who proposed it no. Would that have harmed her career?
Perhaps. But we all have to make choices. I reject the notion that I am
guilty of....what exactly?
Putting your foot in your mouth?
Miss St John had the option of saying 'No". And she didn't. No foot no mouth.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Perhaps you've gone to far here. She was 14, after all. I think the
point is that there is no way to know with certainty the truth of her
accusation. We can probably all agree on some probability (75-90%) that
she is being truthful (and accurate), but as frustrating as it may be we
simply don't know for sure.
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 13:05:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
St. John's brother, not she at the time, 1986, was expected to have the important career. But Brodsky, she says, had told her: wouldn't it be a shame if your brother got dismissed from Curtis? So a a kid, terrified for her brother, she keeps totally silent about her abuse, except for a few close friends. She gets herself a new teacher at Curtis and elaborately plans out her daily schedule so as not to cross paths with Brodsky who once asks her: why don't you love me anymore? At 17, she tries to kill herself. She then drops out of school and refuses to continue her education. My career, she thinks, is over. But her big brother who was to have the big career, knowing nothing about what had happened to his beloved little sister, continues to take lessons from the very teacher who had attacked her. For her part she keeps the story locked up inside her.

A few years pass. 1995. She gets a phone call from a counselor at Curtis asking about what had happened to her at Curtis (the counselor had heard rumors), and the whole story spills out of young Lara. A day later, another woman, the same woman at Curtis who in 1986 had asked her to tea as a kid and coached her then to be silent, calls her in NYC and asks her once again not to discuss this matter with anyone b/c her teacher was frail, likely to die soon and now was teaching only one student. She agrees.

More time passes. Now it's 2012, St. John's career blossoms (concert engagements, recordings, etc.), but she gets wind thru a friend that an administrator at Curtis has been questioning why she was so ungrateful (all students go to Curtis tuition free), why she never gives them any money. So she writes to this administrator privately, pulling no punches in detailing the abuse, but asks her not to share the message. So nothing happens.

Two months later, the same Dean who had ridiculed her as a 15-year-old, now retired from Curtis, publishes an article for a classical-music blog about the cover-up of sexual abuse in music schools. The piece is entitled When Curtis Was Known as the Coitus Institute.

The dam of silence finally breaks. In 2013, St. John, infuriated, contacts the Curtis Institute president and lays out the whole story. She tells him her only goal now is to stop the former Dean who had mocked her as a child from posing now as an expert on sexual abuse. Deeply disturbed, the Curtis head informs the Board which orders an immediate no-holds-barred outside investigation. St. John is not interviewed in that investigation (it wouldn't have been fair to the dead teacher is the reason given). Only two from Curtis are interviewed: one is the derisive Dean in question, the other a world-renowned musician in his own right who as fate would have it, is the husband of the woman at Curtis, now dead, who once at tea and again over the phone had asked St John to remain silent about her abuse. So nothing much comes of the investigation. But Curtis administrators do ask the former Dean to please stop writing about sexual abuse and cite to him the sensitive matter of Lara St. John which to this point has remained out of the public eye. The Dean peremptorily refuses: "My conscience is clear", he tells Curtis.

In late June of this year, St. John takes a train back to her hometown Philly and revisits some of the places that brought her such pain 34 years ago. The ceiling of the room where she took tea with the famous musician's wife who asked her not to talk about the attack looked a lot higher back then, she notes. It must be because I was so small, she states.

The Philadelphia Inquirer investigative report follows shortly thereafter.
Andrew Clarke
2019-07-26 13:08:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by dk
Post by Bob Harper
As I made clear, I make no judgment about the charge; I simply don't
know. I am not 'blaming' Ms. St. John, though I suppose I am calling
into question her judgment with respect to the album cover. Unless we
are to believe that she was powerless, she could have, had she objected
to it, told those who proposed it no. Would that have harmed her career?
Perhaps. But we all have to make choices. I reject the notion that I am
guilty of....what exactly?
Putting your foot in your mouth?
Miss St John had the option of saying 'No". And she didn't. No foot no mouth.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Perhaps you've gone to far here. She was 14, after all. I think the
point is that there is no way to know with certainty the truth of her
accusation. We can probably all agree on some probability (75-90%) that
she is being truthful (and accurate), but as frustrating as it may be we
simply don't know for sure.
Sorry, Frank, I didn't make myself clear. I was referring to the record sleeve, not the alleged abuse and rape.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Frank Berger
2019-07-26 13:16:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by dk
Post by Bob Harper
As I made clear, I make no judgment about the charge; I simply don't
know. I am not 'blaming' Ms. St. John, though I suppose I am calling
into question her judgment with respect to the album cover. Unless we
are to believe that she was powerless, she could have, had she objected
to it, told those who proposed it no. Would that have harmed her career?
Perhaps. But we all have to make choices. I reject the notion that I am
guilty of....what exactly?
Putting your foot in your mouth?
Miss St John had the option of saying 'No". And she didn't. No foot no mouth.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Perhaps you've gone to far here. She was 14, after all. I think the
point is that there is no way to know with certainty the truth of her
accusation. We can probably all agree on some probability (75-90%) that
she is being truthful (and accurate), but as frustrating as it may be we
simply don't know for sure.
Sorry, Frank, I didn't make myself clear. I was referring to the record sleeve, not the alleged abuse and rape.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Oh.
Andrew Clarke
2019-07-27 10:41:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Frank Berger
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by dk
Post by Bob Harper
As I made clear, I make no judgment about the charge; I simply don't
know. I am not 'blaming' Ms. St. John, though I suppose I am calling
into question her judgment with respect to the album cover. Unless we
are to believe that she was powerless, she could have, had she objected
to it, told those who proposed it no. Would that have harmed her career?
Perhaps. But we all have to make choices. I reject the notion that I am
guilty of....what exactly?
Putting your foot in your mouth?
Miss St John had the option of saying 'No". And she didn't. No foot no mouth.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Perhaps you've gone to far here. She was 14, after all. I think the
point is that there is no way to know with certainty the truth of her
accusation. We can probably all agree on some probability (75-90%) that
she is being truthful (and accurate), but as frustrating as it may be we
simply don't know for sure.
Sorry, Frank, I didn't make myself clear. I was referring to the record sleeve, not the alleged abuse and rape.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Oh.
The label which recorded that Bach recording seems to do a nice line in nude ladies:

<https://www.discogs.com/Viviana-Guzm%C3%A1n-Planet-Flute/release/12192406>

Well Tempered Productions doesn't seem to be the kind of macho organisation that would make anybody take their clothes off unless they wanted to. There probably aren't enough staff to hold the lady down for a start.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
s***@nycap.rr.com
2019-07-26 15:10:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Miss St John had the option of saying 'No". And she didn't. No foot no mouth.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
OMG! The "option of saying no"? She was barely into her teens. It's rape. Rape. A man can't have sex with a 14 year old and then say, "she didn't say no." That's laughable. Actually, it's horrible.

MIFrost
s***@nycap.rr.com
2019-07-26 15:16:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
Post by Andrew Clarke
Miss St John had the option of saying 'No". And she didn't. No foot no mouth.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
OMG! The "option of saying no"? She was barely into her teens. It's rape. Rape. A man can't have sex with a 14 year old and then say, "she didn't say no." That's laughable. Actually, it's horrible.
MIFrost
I just saw now that you clarified your post and weren't referring to the rape allegation but rather to the record cover, so I take back my "OMG."

MIFrost
msw design
2019-07-26 17:37:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
As I made clear, I make no judgment about the charge; I simply don't
know. I am not 'blaming' Ms. St. John, though I suppose I am calling
into question her judgment with respect to the album cover. Unless we
are to believe that she was powerless, she could have, had she objected
to it, told those who proposed it no. Would that have harmed her career?
Perhaps. But we all have to make choices. I reject the notion that I am
guilty of....what exactly?
Bob Harper
Exactly what I expected of you, Bob. I've never seen you exercise the ability to imagine yourself guilty of anything.

Your middle sentences here are just the sound of BS churning, and your summary statement of "we all have to make choices" is a model of superficial thought. You sound like "The Major" on Fawlty Towers.

You are a smart enough man to know that young people, especially those who have been abused, are rarely models of good choice-making, and that young, attractive women whose careers are shaped by other interested parties, often exploit their looks to their commercial benefit. Who knows who is to blame? Acting like it all rests on her is simply another convenience of those who really don't care, and see these issues as irritants.
Andrew Clarke
2019-07-27 00:33:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by msw design
Exactly what I expected of you, Bob. I've never seen you exercise the ability to imagine yourself guilty of anything.
People in glass houses, pots, kettles ...

BTW is your real name Monica?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
msw design
2019-07-27 05:35:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by msw design
Exactly what I expected of you, Bob. I've never seen you exercise the ability to imagine yourself guilty of anything.
People in glass houses, pots, kettles ...
BTW is your real name Monica?
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew, you are one of a kind! Please do call me Monica from now on. I promise you I'll get a laugh out of it every time.
Andrew Clarke
2019-07-27 10:19:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by msw design
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by msw design
Exactly what I expected of you, Bob. I've never seen you exercise the ability to imagine yourself guilty of anything.
People in glass houses, pots, kettles ...
BTW is your real name Monica?
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew, you are one of a kind! Please do call me Monica from now on. I promise you I'll get a laugh out of it every time.
See

<https://msw.design/>

Don and Betty Draper are alive and well and living in Arizona ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Todd Michel McComb
2019-07-28 05:49:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by msw design
Andrew, you are one of a kind!
I really do believe that he is employing some sort of "ways to
offend people" checklist. Some of them fall flat.
Andrew Clarke
2019-07-28 06:19:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by msw design
Andrew, you are one of a kind!
I really do believe that he is employing some sort of "ways to
offend people" checklist. Some of them fall flat.
Not "ways to offend people in general", Todd, just "ways to offend people like yourself". I do realise that it's hard for you to tell the difference.

And how about the offense given to the members of, and friends of, the Brodsky family? Or don't they count?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Todd Michel McComb
2019-07-28 06:30:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Not "ways to offend people in general", Todd, just "ways to offend
people like yourself".
I'd like to think that you understood who or what people like me are,
but I have little confidence regarding such. Your recent equation of
left & liberal only underscores that concern.
Post by Andrew Clarke
And how about the offense given to the members of, and friends of, the
Brodsky family? Or don't they count?
Oh dear Andrew, are they friends of yours? I don't recall mentioning
them or expressing any disdain for Mr. Brodsky. I guess they'll
just have to cope, won't they, like everyone else?
Andrew Clarke
2019-07-28 10:33:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by Andrew Clarke
Not "ways to offend people in general", Todd, just "ways to offend
people like yourself".
I'd like to think that you understood who or what people like me are,
but I have little confidence regarding such. Your recent equation of
left & liberal only underscores that concern.
The problem is that "liberal" in current American usage is very different to its classical meaning or indeed to its current meaning in Australian usage. I find that the expression "left-liberal" tends to clarify matters.
Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by Andrew Clarke
And how about the offense given to the members of, and friends of, the
Brodsky family? Or don't they count?
Oh dear Andrew, are they friends of yours?
No. And they don't have to be.
Post by Todd Michel McComb
I don't recall mentioning
them
No you didn't, and that's part of the problem.
Post by Todd Michel McComb
or expressing any disdain for Mr. Brodsky. I guess they'll
just have to cope, won't they, like everyone else?
Why should they have 'to cope'?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Todd Michel McComb
2019-07-28 17:40:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
The problem is that "liberal" in current American usage is very
different to its classical meaning or indeed to its current meaning in
Australian usage.
In other words, it's become a nonsensical epithet.
Post by Andrew Clarke
Why should they have 'to cope'?
Why should anyone? Shit happens.
Bob Harper
2019-07-28 17:55:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by Andrew Clarke
The problem is that "liberal" in current American usage is very
different to its classical meaning or indeed to its current meaning in
Australian usage.
In other words, it's become a nonsensical epithet.
Post by Andrew Clarke
Why should they have 'to cope'?
Why should anyone? Shit happens.
If you were convinced that someone had told a scurrilous lie about you
or a member of your family, would you react thus? If so, it would say a
great deal--and none of it positive--about your character.

Bob Harper
Todd Michel McComb
2019-07-28 18:25:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
If you were convinced that someone had told a scurrilous lie about
you or a member of your family, would you react thus?
You mean, would I expect random strangers to defend me online? No,
I wouldn't.
Bob Harper
2019-07-28 17:52:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by Todd Michel McComb
I'd like to think that you understood who or what people like me are,
but I have little confidence regarding such. Your recent equation of
left & liberal only underscores that concern.
The problem is that "liberal" in current American usage is very different to its classical meaning or indeed to its current meaning in Australian usage. I find that the expression "left-liberal" tends to clarify matters.
(snip)

Indeed it does. Mr. McComb is disingenuous. It is, I suppose, possible
that there are a few real Liberals of, say, the Hubert Humphrey type,
left in American politics, but the vast majority are now leftists, with
all the totalitarian impulse that implies.

Bob Harper
Todd Michel McComb
2019-07-28 18:22:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Indeed it does. Mr. McComb is disingenuous. It is, I suppose, possible
that there are a few real Liberals of, say, the Hubert Humphrey type,
left in American politics, but the vast majority are now leftists, with
all the totalitarian impulse that implies.
Simply put, liberalism is the historical philosophy of capitalism,
and I don't share it. This equation of liberals with leftists arose
from Reagan era rhetoric that the US media came to embrace -- in
large part because it makes leftism invisible (in this country &
elsewhere) by equating it with ordinary (i.e. for-profit) liberalism.
That's something on which "both sides" -- i.e. the two liberal
parties that dominate this country -- have been able to agree. Or
put in simpler terms, they both prioritize increasing stock prices,
and argue about who does it better.
Todd Michel McComb
2019-07-28 18:27:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Indeed it does. Mr. McComb is disingenuous. It is, I suppose, possible
that there are a few real Liberals of, say, the Hubert Humphrey type,
left in American politics, but the vast majority are now leftists, with
all the totalitarian impulse that implies.
Simply put, liberalism is the historical philosophy of capitalism,
and I don't share it. This equation of liberals with leftists arose
from Reagan era rhetoric that the US media came to embrace -- in
large part because it makes leftism invisible (in this country &
elsewhere) by equating it with ordinary (i.e. for-profit) liberalism.
That's something on which "both sides" -- i.e. the two liberal
parties that dominate this country -- have been able to agree. Or
put in simpler terms, they both prioritize increasing stock prices,
and argue about who does it better.
Frank Berger
2019-07-28 18:52:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by Bob Harper
Indeed it does. Mr. McComb is disingenuous. It is, I suppose, possible
that there are a few real Liberals of, say, the Hubert Humphrey type,
left in American politics, but the vast majority are now leftists, with
all the totalitarian impulse that implies.
Simply put, liberalism is the historical philosophy of capitalism,
and I don't share it.
I agree that this is what classical liberalism meant and what
Libertarian means today. The title of Milton Friedman's famous book
"Capitalism and Freedom" should have been "Capitalism is Freedom."

This equation of liberals with leftists arose
Post by Todd Michel McComb
from Reagan era rhetoric that the US media came to embrace -- in
large part because it makes leftism invisible (in this country &
elsewhere) by equating it with ordinary (i.e. for-profit) liberalism.
That's something on which "both sides" -- i.e. the two liberal
parties that dominate this country -- have been able to agree. Or
put in simpler terms, they both prioritize increasing stock prices,
and argue about who does it better.
I have see it said that in the U.S. the change in the meaning of
Liberalism from something like today's Libertarianism to a system
espousing agressive government intervention in the economy to correct
perceived failures began in the 1930s, coincident with the New Deal.
Todd Michel McComb
2019-07-28 19:08:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
I have see it said that in the U.S. the change in the meaning of
Liberalism from something like today's Libertarianism to a system
espousing agressive government intervention in the economy to correct
perceived failures began in the 1930s, coincident with the New Deal.
Liberalism began as an opposition philosophy: "Laissez faire"
itself was addressed to an older regime. So there has been a strand
of liberalism that suggests a larger context, that it's not about
making everything into money & profit, but retaining some other
values. That sort of thinking reappeared more explicitly under the
New Deal, yes, but not for the first time. (Neoliberalism then
arose so as to strip liberalism of these older embumberances, to
construct a strict non-oppositional economic logic....) That said,
the New Deal continued to accommodate for-profit business transactions,
private land ownership, inherited wealth, etc. So it did function
within the horizon of liberalism.
Bob Harper
2019-07-28 21:30:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
I have see it said that in the U.S. the change in the meaning of
Liberalism from something like today's Libertarianism to a system
espousing agressive government intervention in the economy to correct
perceived failures began in the 1930s, coincident with the New Deal.
Correct, although I would argue that classical liberalism is the parent
of both modern libertarianism and modern conservatism.

On 7/28/19 12:08 PM, Todd Michel McComb wrote:
(snip)

That said,
Post by Frank Berger
the New Deal continued to accommodate for-profit business transactions,
private land ownership, inherited wealth, etc. So it did function
within the horizon of liberalism.
And can we assume that you would eschew these? That's what it sounds
like, and if so, you are a Leftist, not a Liberal. You have a right to
be so, but you need to be honest about it.

Bob Harper
Todd Michel McComb
2019-07-28 22:08:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
And can we assume that you would eschew these? That's what it
sounds like, and if so, you are a Leftist, not a Liberal. You have
a right to be so, but you need to be honest about it.
You've already lost the plot? Yes, I'm a leftist and not a liberal.
Hence my objection to equating them.
Frank Berger
2019-07-28 11:25:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by Andrew Clarke
Not "ways to offend people in general", Todd, just "ways to offend
people like yourself".
I'd like to think that you understood who or what people like me are,
but I have little confidence regarding such. Your recent equation of
left & liberal only underscores that concern.
Post by Andrew Clarke
And how about the offense given to the members of, and friends of, the
Brodsky family? Or don't they count?
Oh dear Andrew, are they friends of yours? I don't recall mentioning
them or expressing any disdain for Mr. Brodsky. I guess they'll
just have to cope, won't they, like everyone else?
I had the idea, perhaps wrong, that you believe Ms. St. John's story. At
least you once referred to "the abuse" as though it was an established
fact. To that extent, how can you not have distain for Brodsky.

You accused Andrew of trying to offend. His views expressed here have
been pretty standard conservative stuff. If you are offended, that says
more about you than him.
Todd Michel McComb
2019-07-28 17:58:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
At least you once referred to "the abuse" as though it was an
established fact.
For purposes of a reply regarding causality & the photo I did posit
it as such.
To that extent, how can you not have distain for Brodsky.
I doubt that you're going to get any instant appreciation for the
way I think, but the past is the past. I have concerns about the
administration & the future.
You accused Andrew of trying to offend.
Because he is.
Frank Berger
2019-07-28 18:12:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Todd Michel McComb
At least you once referred to "the abuse" as though it was an
established fact.
For purposes of a reply regarding causality & the photo I did posit
it as such.
To that extent, how can you not have distain for Brodsky.
I doubt that you're going to get any instant appreciation for the
way I think, but the past is the past. I have concerns about the
administration & the future.
You accused Andrew of trying to offend.
Because he is.
This makes no sense. You are offended by what he says. As most
leftists are offended by conservative political positions. You think
you have the moral high ground. This leads to your being offended and
results in demonization of those you disagree with. And, of course,
zero meaningful dialogue.
Bob Harper
2019-07-28 21:21:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Todd Michel McComb
At least you once referred to "the abuse" as though it was an
established fact.
For purposes of a reply regarding causality & the photo I did posit
it as such.
To that extent, how can you not have distain for Brodsky.
I doubt that you're going to get any instant appreciation for the
way I think, but the past is the past.  I have concerns about the
administration & the future.
You accused Andrew of trying to offend.
Because he is.
This makes no sense.  You are offended by what he says.  As most
leftists are offended by conservative political positions.  You think
you have the moral high ground.  This leads to your being offended and
results in demonization of those you disagree with.  And, of course,
zero meaningful dialogue.
Bingo.

Bob Harper
Todd Michel McComb
2019-07-28 22:14:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
This makes no sense.
I didn't expect that it would.
Post by Frank Berger
You are offended by what he says.
Not this time, but losing the plot seems to be a theme....
Post by Frank Berger
As most leftists are offended by conservative political positions.
I'll tell you what, once something like calling people Monica gets
entered into a major political platform, I'll get back to you on
this. Or maybe when Clarke doesn't go on to agree he's trying to
offend....

Bob Harper
2019-07-27 13:48:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by msw design
Post by Bob Harper
As I made clear, I make no judgment about the charge; I simply don't
know. I am not 'blaming' Ms. St. John, though I suppose I am calling
into question her judgment with respect to the album cover. Unless we
are to believe that she was powerless, she could have, had she objected
to it, told those who proposed it no. Would that have harmed her career?
Perhaps. But we all have to make choices. I reject the notion that I am
guilty of....what exactly?
Bob Harper
Exactly what I expected of you, Bob. I've never seen you exercise the ability to imagine yourself guilty of anything.
Your middle sentences here are just the sound of BS churning, and your summary statement of "we all have to make choices" is a model of superficial thought. You sound like "The Major" on Fawlty Towers.
You are a smart enough man to know that young people, especially those who have been abused, are rarely models of good choice-making, and that young, attractive women whose careers are shaped by other interested parties, often exploit their looks to their commercial benefit. Who knows who is to blame? Acting like it all rests on her is simply another convenience of those who really don't care, and see these issues as irritants.
Well, I try to make it into the confessional every 4-6 weeks, and
probably ought to go more often. In there I not only imagine myself
guilty, I accuse myself of guilt, express contrition, and receive
absolution. Whether you understand that or not I don't know, but it's
what I do.

I do not, however, apologize or feel guilty for having opnions, or for
being skeptical about something unproven, and probably unproveable at
this date. That said, the more I read about this, the more likely it
seems to me that Ms. St. John is telling the truth, and that what
happened to her was horrible. But whether we will ever know with legal
certainty is unlikely. I will say, to throw another cat among the
pigeons, that she comes across as considerably more believable than
Christine Blasey Ford.

Bob Harper
Andrew Clarke
2019-07-27 15:33:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by msw design
Post by Bob Harper
As I made clear, I make no judgment about the charge; I simply don't
know. I am not 'blaming' Ms. St. John, though I suppose I am calling
into question her judgment with respect to the album cover. Unless we
are to believe that she was powerless, she could have, had she objected
to it, told those who proposed it no. Would that have harmed her career?
Perhaps. But we all have to make choices. I reject the notion that I am
guilty of....what exactly?
Bob Harper
Exactly what I expected of you, Bob. I've never seen you exercise the ability to imagine yourself guilty of anything.
Your middle sentences here are just the sound of BS churning, and your summary statement of "we all have to make choices" is a model of superficial thought. You sound like "The Major" on Fawlty Towers.
You are a smart enough man to know that young people, especially those who have been abused, are rarely models of good choice-making, and that young, attractive women whose careers are shaped by other interested parties, often exploit their looks to their commercial benefit. Who knows who is to blame? Acting like it all rests on her is simply another convenience of those who really don't care, and see these issues as irritants.
Well, I try to make it into the confessional every 4-6 weeks, and
probably ought to go more often. In there I not only imagine myself
guilty, I accuse myself of guilt, express contrition, and receive
absolution. Whether you understand that or not I don't know, but it's
what I do.
I do not, however, apologize or feel guilty for having opnions, or for
being skeptical about something unproven, and probably unproveable at
this date. That said, the more I read about this, the more likely it
seems to me that Ms. St. John is telling the truth, and that what
happened to her was horrible. But whether we will ever know with legal
certainty is unlikely. I will say, to throw another cat among the
pigeons, that she comes across as considerably more believable than
Christine Blasey Ford.
Bob Harper
"Brodsky was greatly loved and respected by his pupils. There are about a dozen Brodsky students in the Philadelphia Orchestra at present and in any given year. A former student and assistant leader of the orchestra, Robert de Pasquale, said: "Jascha was a beautiful human being, a kind man who was always fair. He was one of the last of the real old-time artist teachers." And his colleague Orlando Cole, a fellow professor at the Curtis, praised his artistry for its impeccable musicianship and refinement: "But his chief characteristic was his gentle modesty, which these young people appreciated."

- https://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/obituary-jascha-brodsky-5574714.html

It would be interesting to hear the views of Hilary Hahn and Sarah Chang who were both taught by him.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
2019-07-26 00:34:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by j***@gmail.com
I would never have seen this otherwise. Thanks. St John sends an powerful message to arts administrators: think twice before you 'blow off' a youngster who comes to you for help, because she may grow up to haunt your twilight years.
I have no opinion about the truth of the allegations, but I would note
that Ms. St. John has not been above using her person for commercial
purposes. She's a fine violinist, but was this cover (her first) necessary?
It is getting to the stage where the only musicians we're allowed to like are John Dunstable, Padre Soler and Hildegard of Bingen. We must certainly rule out Constant Lambert who fell in love with his future wife when she was 14, although no hanky-panky happened until she was of age, or so it's said ...

Meanwhile we ought to hear Brodsky's side of the story - oh, sorry, we can't, he died in 1997.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
msw design
2019-07-26 17:27:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
It is getting to the stage where the only musicians we're allowed to like are John Dunstable, Padre Soler and Hildegard of Bingen. We must certainly rule out Constant Lambert who fell in love with his future wife when she was 14, although no hanky-panky happened until she was of age, or so it's said ...
Meanwhile we ought to hear Brodsky's side of the story - oh, sorry, we can't, he died in 1997.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Twittering silliness. Nobody is asserting we reevaluate historical figures by today's standards.
Andrew Clarke
2019-07-27 00:29:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by msw design
Post by Andrew Clarke
It is getting to the stage where the only musicians we're allowed to like are John Dunstable, Padre Soler and Hildegard of Bingen. We must certainly rule out Constant Lambert who fell in love with his future wife when she was 14, although no hanky-panky happened until she was of age, or so it's said ...
Meanwhile we ought to hear Brodsky's side of the story - oh, sorry, we can't, he died in 1997.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Twittering silliness. Nobody is asserting we reevaluate historical figures by today's standards.
You just don't do irony do you?

And are you really arguing that moral standards change over time?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
g***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 07:08:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Harper
Post by j***@gmail.com
I would never have seen this otherwise. Thanks. St John sends an powerful message to arts administrators: think twice before you 'blow off' a youngster who comes to you for help, because she may grow up to haunt your twilight years.
I have no opinion about the truth of the allegations, but I would note
that Ms. St. John has not been above using her person for commercial
purposes. She's a fine violinist, but was this cover (her first) necessary?
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-Lara-St-John/dp/B000003Y32/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=lara+st+john&qid=1564071483&s=gateway&sr=8-6
Bob Harper
Would she probably have said this about her record label/producers?:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical.recordings/Gy2Tc4-n-j0
Andrew Clarke
2019-07-26 08:23:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Bob Harper
Post by j***@gmail.com
I would never have seen this otherwise. Thanks. St John sends an powerful message to arts administrators: think twice before you 'blow off' a youngster who comes to you for help, because she may grow up to haunt your twilight years.
I have no opinion about the truth of the allegations, but I would note
that Ms. St. John has not been above using her person for commercial
purposes. She's a fine violinist, but was this cover (her first) necessary?
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-Lara-St-John/dp/B000003Y32/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=lara+st+john&qid=1564071483&s=gateway&sr=8-6
Bob Harper
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical.recordings/Gy2Tc4-n-j0
Well at the moment she seems to record exclusively for her own record label, she and her pet iguana. Her itinerary doesn't seem to be particularly venturesome these days, either. See

<https://www.larastjohn.com/>

I'm always suspicious of people who make this kind of allegation many years after the alleged offence, especially if the perpetrator is unable to defend his/herself. I'm even more suspicious when the principle of presumed innocence is blithely disregarded by people who should know better, especially arrogant, preachy left-liberals who think they know better than everybody else, without the need for boring stuff like evidence.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
2019-07-26 08:25:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Bob Harper
Post by j***@gmail.com
I would never have seen this otherwise. Thanks. St John sends an powerful message to arts administrators: think twice before you 'blow off' a youngster who comes to you for help, because she may grow up to haunt your twilight years.
I have no opinion about the truth of the allegations, but I would note
that Ms. St. John has not been above using her person for commercial
purposes. She's a fine violinist, but was this cover (her first) necessary?
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-Lara-St-John/dp/B000003Y32/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=lara+st+john&qid=1564071483&s=gateway&sr=8-6
Bob Harper
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical.recordings/Gy2Tc4-n-j0
Well at the moment she seems to record exclusively for her own record label, she and her pet iguana. Her itinerary doesn't seem to be particularly venturesome these days, either. See
<https://www.larastjohn.com/>
I'm always suspicious of people who make this kind of allegation many years after the alleged offence, especially if the perpetrator is unable to defend his/herself. I'm even more suspicious when the principle of presumed innocence is blithely disregarded by people who should know better, especially arrogant, preachy left-liberals who think they know better than everybody else, without the need for boring stuff like evidence.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 09:38:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I would say that St. John is admirable for pushing this narrative when she is likely to get nothing but grief from it, as per some of the posts here show.

Her coming forward should do some good. It might help others to speak up in the future. And it should send a shot across the bow of anyone in authority in any institution that is tempted not to listen to what they don't want to hear.
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 09:42:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I admire St. John for pushing this narrative now when she is likely to get nothing but grief from it.

Her coming forward though may do some good. It might help others to speak up in the future. And it definitely should send a shot across the bow of anyone in authority in any institution who is tempted not to listen to what they don't want to hear. Cf. some of the reactions posted here.
Andrew Clarke
2019-07-26 12:54:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
I admire St. John for pushing this narrative now when she is likely to get nothing but grief from it.
Nothing but grief???? She'll be another #metoo heroine.
Post by j***@gmail.com
Her coming forward though may do some good. It might help others to speak up in the future. And it definitely should send a shot across the bow of anyone in authority in any institution who is tempted not to listen to what they don't want to hear. Cf. some of the reactions posted here.
If what Miss St John is telling it like it was, yes. But if so, why didn't the St John family bring criminal charges at the time?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Frank Berger
2019-07-26 12:50:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Bob Harper
Post by j***@gmail.com
I would never have seen this otherwise. Thanks. St John sends an powerful message to arts administrators: think twice before you 'blow off' a youngster who comes to you for help, because she may grow up to haunt your twilight years.
I have no opinion about the truth of the allegations, but I would note
that Ms. St. John has not been above using her person for commercial
purposes. She's a fine violinist, but was this cover (her first) necessary?
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-Lara-St-John/dp/B000003Y32/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=lara+st+john&qid=1564071483&s=gateway&sr=8-6
Bob Harper
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical.recordings/Gy2Tc4-n-j0
Well at the moment she seems to record exclusively for her own record label, she and her pet iguana. Her itinerary doesn't seem to be particularly venturesome these days, either. See
<https://www.larastjohn.com/>
I'm always suspicious of people who make this kind of allegation many years after the alleged offence, especially if the perpetrator is unable to defend his/herself. I'm even more suspicious when the principle of presumed innocence is blithely disregarded by people who should know better, especially arrogant, preachy left-liberals who think they know better than everybody else, without the need for boring stuff like evidence.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Yes.
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 12:53:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
St. John's brother, not she at the time, 1986, was expected to have the important career. So as a kid she keeps silent, except for a few close friends. She gets herself a new teacher at Curtis and elaborately plans out her daily schedule so as not to cross paths with Brodsky who once asks her: why don't you love me anymore? At 17, she tries to kill herself. She then drops out of school and refuses to continue her education. My career, she thinks, is over. But her big brother who was to have the big career, knowing nothing about what had happened to his beloved little sister, continues to take lessons from the very teacher who had attacked her. For her part she keeps the story locked up inside her.

A few years pass. 1995. She gets a phone call from a counselor at Curtis asking about what had happened to her at Curtis (the counselor had heard rumors), and the whole story spills out of young Lara. A day later, another woman, the same woman at Curtis who in 1986 had asked her to tea as a kid and coached her then to be silent, calls her in NYC and asks her once again not to discuss this matter with anyone b/c her teacher was frail, likely to die soon and now was teaching only one student. She agrees.

More time passes. Now it's 2012, St. John's career blossoms (concert engagements, recordings, etc.), but she gets wind thru a friend that an administrator at Curtis has been questioning why she was so ungrateful (all students go to Curtis tuition free), why she never gives them any money. So she writes to this administrator privately, pulling no punches in detailing the abuse, but asks her not to share the message. So nothing happens.

Two months later, the same Dean who had ridiculed her as a 15-year-old, now retired from Curtis, publishes an article for a classical-music blog about the cover-up of sexual abuse in music schools. The piece is entitled When Curtis Was Known as the Coitus Institute.

The dam of silence finally breaks. In 2013, St. John, infuriated, contacts the Curtis Institute president and lays out the whole story. She tells him her only goal now is to stop the former Dean who had mocked her as a child from posing now as an expert on sexual abuse. Deeply disturbed, the Curtis head informs the Board which orders an immediate no-holds-barred outside investigation. St. John is not interviewed in that investigation (it wouldn't have been fair to the dead teacher is the reason given). Only two from Curtis are interviewed: one is the derisive Dean in question, the other a world-renowned musician in his own right who as fate would have it, is the husband of the woman at Curtis, now dead, who once at tea and again over the phone had asked St John to remain silent about her abuse. So nothing much comes of the investigation. But Curtis administrators do ask the former Dean to please stop writing about sexual abuse and cite to him the sensitive matter of Lara St. John which to this point has remained out of the public eye. The Dean peremptorily refuses: "My conscience is clear", he tells Curtis.

In late June of this year, St. John takes a train back to her hometown Philly and revisits some of the places that brought her such pain 34 years ago. The ceiling of the room where she took tea with the famous musician's wife who asked her not to talk about the attack looked a lot higher back then, she notes. It must be because I was so small, she states.

The Philadelphia Inquirer investigative report follows shortly thereafter.
s***@nycap.rr.com
2019-07-26 15:04:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Clarke
I'm always suspicious of people who make this kind of allegation many years after the alleged offence, especially if the perpetrator is unable to defend his/herself. I'm even more suspicious when the principle of presumed innocence is blithely disregarded by people who should know better, especially arrogant, preachy left-liberals who think they know better than everybody else, without the need for boring stuff like evidence.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
She didn't make the allegation "many years after." She went to the administrator right away. She did not go public until now but she has witnesses who support her at important points in her story. I think she's credible. I believe her. Other women have made similar claims against Brodsky. Not rape but similar. Some women make up sexual harassment stories but that is very rare. This one is believable, IMO.

MIFrost
j***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 15:43:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Friday, July 26, 2019 at 11:04:51 AM UTC-4, ***@nycap.rr.com wrote:
She didn't make the allegation "many years after." She went to the administrator right away. She did not go public until now ...
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
MIFrost
Right, and that was 6 years after 2013, she had contacted the Curtis Administration privately. Subsequently, Curtis was unable to resolve the matter privately.

But back in 1986, the head of the Curtis Institute, whom she turned to for help as a 15-year-old kid, apparently failed to notify St. John's parents of what today he says he regarded as her teacher just being "touchy-feely" His words: he is alive, presumably accountable for waht he did or didn't say or do, and now calls her story "Nonsense".

In fact, I believe the recalcitrant Dean, NOT the long-dead Brodsky is the real target of this stunningly reported Philadelphia Inquirer wtory.
Todd Michel McComb
2019-07-26 20:07:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
In fact, I believe the recalcitrant Dean, NOT the long-dead Brodsky is
the real target of this stunningly reported Philadelphia Inquirer wtory.
Sure sounds that way.
Frank Berger
2019-07-26 21:33:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by j***@gmail.com
In fact, I believe the recalcitrant Dean, NOT the long-dead Brodsky is
the real target of this stunningly reported Philadelphia Inquirer wtory.
Sure sounds that way.
I had to check to makes sure it wasn't the National Enquirer.

I don't think that talk about who the target is is reasonable. Ms. St.
John came forward. If we are giving here the benefit of the doubt,
let's do it completely. She came forward not to "target" anyone, per
se, although Brodksy's reputation as as targetable as Fitzpatrick's, but
to protect future students from being preyed on. I haven't seen anything
about he bringing a civil suit against Curtis. If this was all about
advantage for her wouldn't there be one. It's not like her career is
going gangbusters.
Todd Michel McComb
2019-07-26 21:41:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
She came forward not to "target" anyone, per se, although Brodksy's
reputation as as targetable as Fitzpatrick's, but to protect future
students from being preyed on.
Sure, but the ongoing activity of the Dean apparently prompted her
renewed concern -- presumably including re: the latter.

Anyway, if you're saying there's no real point in speculating, I
can't disagree. Seems like some folks definitely need to get their
acts together though....
Frank Berger
2019-07-26 21:55:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Todd Michel McComb
She came forward not to "target" anyone, per se, although Brodksy's
reputation as as targetable as Fitzpatrick's, but to protect future
students from being preyed on.
Sure, but the ongoing activity of the Dean apparently prompted her
renewed concern -- presumably including re: the latter.
Anyway, if you're saying there's no real point in speculating, I
can't disagree. Seems like some folks definitely need to get their
acts together though....
How about simply never letting an underage student be alone with his/her
teacher? This protects everyone.
Todd Michel McComb
2019-07-26 22:06:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Frank Berger
How about simply never letting an underage student be alone with his/her
teacher?
That would be quite a change....
Frank Berger
2019-07-26 22:30:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by Frank Berger
How about simply never letting an underage student be alone with his/her
teacher?
That would be quite a change....
The last 10 years or so of my career, few men would meet alone with a
woman, unless it was someone of long acquaintance. It was not just fear
of being falsely accused of something, but also fear of actually
behaving inappropriately in an era of rapidly changing norms. When
conducting interviews with female job applicants, I usually saw to it
that someone else was present, often someone from personnel.
Todd Michel McComb
2019-07-26 23:35:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
When conducting interviews with female job applicants, I usually
saw to it that someone else was present, often someone from personnel.
Understood, but one-to-one time between student & instructor has
been the core of private music tuition, particularly outside of
institutions per se.

That's not to say that changes are impossible, but it would be a
big change indeed to have someone else always present (particularly
if it's not a second child).
HT
2019-07-26 19:29:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
She didn't make the allegation "many years after." She went to the administrator right away. She did not go public until now but she has witnesses who support her at important points in her story. I think she's credible. I believe her. Other women have made similar claims against Brodsky. Not rape but similar. Some women make up sexual harassment stories but that is very rare. This one is believable, IMO.
I appreciate your IMO. However, don't you think that accusing the rich and famous has become too profitable in the US to be satisfied with how believable someone seems to be? Or is that an unamerican consideration (asking questions before shooting)?

Henk
s***@nycap.rr.com
2019-07-26 23:28:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by HT
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
She didn't make the allegation "many years after." She went to the administrator right away. She did not go public until now but she has witnesses who support her at important points in her story. I think she's credible. I believe her. Other women have made similar claims against Brodsky. Not rape but similar. Some women make up sexual harassment stories but that is very rare. This one is believable, IMO.
I appreciate your IMO. However, don't you think that accusing the rich and famous has become too profitable in the US to be satisfied with how believable someone seems to be? Or is that an unamerican consideration (asking questions before shooting)?
Henk
*Falsely* accusing the rich and famous is never profitable. Not really. Some liars get a settlement but how would that apply in this case? Is Ms. St. John looking for a settlement, do you think? Is/was Mr. Brodsky "rich and famous? I think not. It's apples and oranges. Ms St. John made a credible charge at the time and recently came public with it. Good for her! I think predators should be exposed. Is it a false claim? We can't be absolutely certain but it seems so to me. Anyway, others former students came up with similar stories. I don't think they're all lying. That's just how I see it.

MIFrost
HT
2019-07-27 09:15:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@nycap.rr.com
*Falsely* accusing the rich and famous is never profitable. Not really. Some liars get a settlement but how would that apply in this case? Is Ms. St. John looking for a settlement, do you think? Is/was Mr. Brodsky "rich and famous? I think not. It's apples and oranges. Ms St. John made a credible charge at the time and recently came public with it. Good for her! I think predators should be exposed. Is it a false claim? We can't be absolutely certain but it seems so to me. Anyway, others former students came up with similar stories. I don't think they're all lying. That's just how I see it.
Would the Inquirer have placed the article if only a few had heard of Brodsky and Curtis?

Like you, I don't think these former students are lying. But before judging Brodsky/Curtis or Ms. St. John, I'll wait to see how the story ends.

Henk
msw design
2019-07-27 05:30:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by HT
I appreciate your IMO. However, don't you think that accusing the rich and famous has become too profitable in the US to be satisfied with how believable someone seems to be? Or is that an unamerican consideration (asking questions before shooting)?
Henk
You have to have a pretty narrow, uncritical sense of profit to think that a process like this offers only benefit to the accuser. Even when they succeed.
HT
2019-07-27 11:46:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by msw design
You have to have a pretty narrow, uncritical sense of profit to think that a process like this offers only benefit to the accuser. Even when they succeed.
Settlements are too profitable only in the US, as far as I know. Here in the Netherlands, compensations (if there are) are very limited. Money cannot be a consideration - on the contrary.

Henk
g***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 20:50:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Bob Harper
Post by j***@gmail.com
I would never have seen this otherwise. Thanks. St John sends an powerful message to arts administrators: think twice before you 'blow off' a youngster who comes to you for help, because she may grow up to haunt your twilight years.
I have no opinion about the truth of the allegations, but I would note
that Ms. St. John has not been above using her person for commercial
purposes. She's a fine violinist, but was this cover (her first) necessary?
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-Lara-St-John/dp/B000003Y32/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=lara+st+john&qid=1564071483&s=gateway&sr=8-6
Bob Harper
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical.recordings/Gy2Tc4-n-j0
Well at the moment she seems to record exclusively for her own record label...
Could that be because she got tired of being pushed around?

Or 'compromised'?:

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1093&bih=526&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=uGU7XYOECdq6tAbFsqTYCA&q=eyebrows+raised+gif&oq=eyebrows+raised+gif&gs_l=img.3..0.138214.144579..144864...0.0..0.182.1924.1j13......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i7i30j0i7i5i30j0i8i7i30.AV0XcOn79GI&ved=0ahUKEwiDwPSmudPjAhVaHc0KHUUZCYsQ4dUDCAY&uact=5#imgrc=iC4TXZoitEK0EM:
g***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 20:55:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Bob Harper
Post by j***@gmail.com
I would never have seen this otherwise. Thanks. St John sends an powerful message to arts administrators: think twice before you 'blow off' a youngster who comes to you for help, because she may grow up to haunt your twilight years.
I have no opinion about the truth of the allegations, but I would note
that Ms. St. John has not been above using her person for commercial
purposes. She's a fine violinist, but was this cover (her first) necessary?
https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Violin-Lara-St-John/dp/B000003Y32/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=lara+st+john&qid=1564071483&s=gateway&sr=8-6
Bob Harper
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical.recordings/Gy2Tc4-n-j0
Well at the moment she seems to record exclusively for her own record label...
Could that be because she got tired of being pushed around?

Or 'compromised'?:

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1093&bih=526&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=uGU7XYOECdq6tAbFsqTYCA&q=eyebrows+raised+gif&oq=eyebrows+raised+gif&gs_l=img.3..0.138214.144579..144864...0.0..0.182.1924.1j13......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i7i30j0i7i5i30j0i8i7i30.AV0XcOn79GI&ved=0ahUKEwiDwPSmudPjAhVaHc0KHUUZCYsQ4dUDCAY&uact=5#imgdii=6T5nnvExjQnzmM:&imgrc=iC4TXZoitEK0EM:
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