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Messiaen
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dk
2021-03-28 09:46:21 UTC
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Who do you like in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Vingt Regards?

TIA

dk
JohnGavin
2021-03-28 11:02:37 UTC
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Post by dk
Who do you like in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Vingt Regards?
TIA
dk
For the Regards - Stephen Osborne on Hyperion. This choice has as much to do with the sound engineering as with the performance. Just my personal taste, but I dislike any French piano music recorded in a dry acoustic. RCA ruined Peter Serkin’s recording by it’s clunky, bone dry engineering. I know that he played it admirably, having seen him perform them live at Alice Tully Hall in New York City around 1974 from memory.

For the Oiseaux, I’d go with Austbo on Naxos, although to be honest, I’ve never gotten into this work very deeply. Austbo is quite a fascinating pianist. His solo Ravel is definitely worth hearing.
tonyh
2021-03-28 11:37:08 UTC
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Post by dk
Who do you like in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Vingt Regards?
TIA
dk
For the Regards - Stephen Osborne on Hyperion. This choice has as much to do with the sound engineering as with the performance. Just my personal taste, but I dislike any French piano music recorded in a dry acoustic. RCA ruined Peter Serkin’s recording by it’s clunky, bone dry engineering. I know that he played it admirably, having seen him perform them live at Alice Tully Hall in New York City around 1974 from memory.
For the Oiseaux, I’d go with Austbo on Naxos, although to be honest, I’ve never gotten into this work very deeply. Austbo is quite a fascinating pianist. His solo Ravel is definitely worth hearing.
Current favourites for me are Martin Helmchen for a studio sound, and Jean- Rudolphe Kars for something quite special; live in the Concertgebouw in 1976 before he gave it all up for God.
raymond....@gmail.com
2021-03-28 13:38:49 UTC
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Post by dk
Who do you like in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Vingt Regards?
TIA
dk
Austbo is very good in Vingt Regards. I got rid of Messiaen's bird music.

Ray Hall, Taree
Todd Michel McComb
2021-03-28 15:51:20 UTC
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Post by dk
Who do you like in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Vingt Regards?
I just turned to Aimard's new _Catalogue_ recording last week as
it happens....
Chris from Lafayette
2021-03-28 22:35:14 UTC
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Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by dk
Who do you like in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Vingt Regards?
I just turned to Aimard's new _Catalogue_ recording last week as
it happens....
I certainly like Aimard's 2001 Teldec Vingt Regards too - especially in its 24/96 MCh incarnation on DVD-Audio. The engineering really liberates the sound source from the locations of your speakers - the piano is really out there in three-dimensional space.
Todd Michel McComb
2021-03-28 22:38:50 UTC
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Post by Chris from Lafayette
I certainly like Aimard's 2001 Teldec Vingt Regards too - especially
in its 24/96 MCh incarnation on DVD-Audio. The engineering really
liberates the sound source from the locations of your speakers -
the piano is really out there in three-dimensional space.
I went for the 24/96 download for _Catalogue d'oiseaux_ too. It's
also quite a nice, spacious sound, in this case on Pentatone. Piano
very clear.
Henk vT
2021-03-28 16:57:23 UTC
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Post by dk
Who do you like in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Vingt Regards?
TIA
dk
No likes in the category Catalogue. Ogdon is still a/the favorite in the Regards. So is Serkin. They make things happen. Osborne is better than I think he is. And there is Beroff. He's at his best in this kind of repertoire.

Henk
Andy Evans
2021-03-28 21:46:30 UTC
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Ogdon is still a/the favorite in the Regards. So is Serkin. They make things happen. Osborne is better than I think he is. And there is Beroff. He's at his best in this kind of repertoire. >> Henk

Beroff is my favourite here. Good performances from Loriod and Austbo. Serkin is good in parts but not in everything. Ogdon is interesting.
dk
2021-03-29 04:04:43 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Who do you like in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Vingt Regards?
TIA
No likes in the category Catalogue.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kbfAKpFFZwq3MVtA5Iaby0sYdwIwoOLRM

dk
dk
2021-03-29 04:08:01 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Who do you like in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Vingt Regards?
TIA
No likes in the category Catalogue. Ogdon is still a/the favorite in
the Regards. So is Serkin. They make things happen. Osborne is
better than I think he is. And there is Beroff. He's at his best in
this kind of repertoire.
how about
?

dk
Andy Evans
2021-03-29 10:08:41 UTC
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Post by dk
how about http://youtu.be/D8A4LtuHjlM ?
dk
That Kars is nice - thanks for that. I find Beroff excellent in this. Very clear recording, and he sounds like he's playing jazz in places. It's clean and musical rather than reverential.
Mandryka
2021-03-30 09:44:45 UTC
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Post by Andy Evans
Post by dk
how about http://youtu.be/D8A4LtuHjlM ?
dk
That Kars is nice - thanks for that. I find Beroff excellent in this. Very clear recording, and he sounds like he's playing jazz in places. It's clean and musical rather than reverential.
A friend of mine, a composer manqué here in The Smoke, once said that the ideal Regards would have a sense of mystery, that the Catholic ideas which Messiaen held to had it that there was something fundamentally ineffable about Christ, so when you consider him you would not really understand what you see.

This is probably horseshit, but I thought I’d mention it anyway.
Henk vT
2021-03-30 10:39:01 UTC
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Post by Andy Evans
Post by dk
how about http://youtu.be/D8A4LtuHjlM ?
dk
That Kars is nice - thanks for that. I find Beroff excellent in this. Very clear recording, and he sounds like he's playing jazz in places. It's clean and musical rather than reverential.
A friend of mine, a composer manqué here in The Smoke, once said that the ideal Regards would have a sense of mystery, that the Catholic ideas which Messiaen held to had it that there was something fundamentally ineffable about Christ, so when you consider him you would not really understand what you see.
This is probably horseshit, but I thought I’d mention it anyway.
It makes sense to me. Why else would Messiaen need (at least) 20 regards?

Henk
Henk vT
2021-03-29 18:57:19 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by Henk vT
Post by dk
Who do you like in Catalogue d'oiseaux and Vingt Regards?
TIA
No likes in the category Catalogue. Ogdon is still a/the favorite in
the Regards. So is Serkin. They make things happen. Osborne is
better than I think he is. And there is Beroff. He's at his best in
this kind of repertoire.
how about http://youtu.be/D8A4LtuHjlM ?
dk
Ugorski is one of the great complete versions of the Catalogue. I rather listen to the birds separately. These performances are often more inspired.
Kars is one of the good versions of the Vingt Regards. I miss something special, like the improvisational approach of Ogden, the clarity of Serkin, Osborne's control and young Beroff's drive. .

Henk
Todd Michel McComb
2021-03-29 22:51:55 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Ugorski is one of the great complete versions of the Catalogue.
I rather listen to the birds separately.
Ugorski had been my recommendation before changing to Aimard. But
Ugorski does include _La fauvette de jardins_, which Aimard does
not. However, as per your suggestion, I hadn't really looked after
individual bird recordings....
Mandryka
2021-03-30 09:31:38 UTC
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Post by Henk vT
Ugorski is one of the great complete versions of the Catalogue.
I rather listen to the birds separately.
Ugorski had been my recommendation before changing to Aimard. But
Ugorski does include _La fauvette de jardins_, which Aimard does
not. However, as per your suggestion, I hadn't really looked after
individual bird recordings....
I can only find two - Yuval Zorn and Helena Basilova.

This music, is it an example of what Stockhausen called Moment Form? Each bird is a sequence of distinct episodes - each episode with its own texture etc - and there’s nothing holding it all together? I’m not sure.
Todd Michel McComb
2021-03-30 16:41:53 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
This music, is it an example of what Stockhausen called Moment
Form?
I don't personally hear this music via Stockhausen. However, it
does anticipate various concerns of environmental & even ambient
music.
Post by Mandryka
Each bird is a sequence of distinct episodes - each episode with
its own texture etc - and there's nothing holding it all together?
I'm not sure.
The form is built of textural-temporal contrasts, contrasted/juxtaposed
in symmetric blocks....
Mandryka
2021-03-30 19:57:35 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
This music, is it an example of what Stockhausen called Moment
Form?
I don't personally hear this music via Stockhausen. However, it
does anticipate various concerns of environmental & even ambient
music.
Post by Mandryka
Each bird is a sequence of distinct episodes - each episode with
its own texture etc - and there's nothing holding it all together?
I'm not sure.
The form is built of textural-temporal contrasts, contrasted/juxtaposed
in symmetric blocks....
That's interesting because I hadn't noticed symmetry.

By moment form I just meant this Stockhausen quote which is on the wiki -- if there are symmetries then it's not moment form, I guess (without being totally sure.)

"neither aim at the climax, nor at prepared (and consequently expected) multiple climaxes, and the usual introductory, rising, transitional and fading-away stages are not delineated in a development curve encompassing the entire duration of the work. On the contrary, these forms are immediately intense and seek to maintain the level of continued "main points", which are constantly equally present, right up until they stop. In these forms a minimum or a maximum may be expected in every moment, and no developmental direction can be predicted with certainty from the present one; they have always already commenced, and could continue forever; in them either everything present counts, or nothing at all; and each and every Now is not unremittingly regarded as the mere consequence of the one which preceded it and as the upbeat to the coming one—in which one puts one's hope—but rather as something personal, independent and centred, capable of existing on its own. They are forms in which an instant does not have to be just a bit of a temporal line, nor a moment just a particle of a measured duration, but rather in which concentration on the Now—on every Now—makes vertical slices, as it were, that cut through a horizontal temporal conception to a timelessness I call eternity: an eternity that does not begin at the end of time but is attainable in every moment. I am speaking of musical forms in which apparently nothing less is being attempted than to explode (even to overthrow) the temporal concept—or, put more accurately: the concept of duration. . . .
In works of this kind the start and stop are open and yet they cease after a certain duration "
Todd Michel McComb
2021-03-30 21:52:19 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
That's interesting because I hadn't noticed symmetry.
The symmetries are in blocks, ABA, ABBA, ABCBA, ABCBDBCBA etc.
Post by Mandryka
I am speaking of musical forms in which apparently nothing less
is being attempted than to explode (even to overthrow) the temporal
concept -- or, put more accurately: the concept of duration. . . .
I don't see how this fits Messiaen's bird pieces at all. One might
note e.g. that they incorporate time of day, etc. I mean, one could
presumably posit that exploding duration first involves maximal
embrace of duration, but.... I would call these very temporal works.
Todd Michel McComb
2021-03-30 21:54:53 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
I am speaking of musical forms in which apparently nothing less
is being attempted than to explode (even to overthrow) the temporal
concept -- or, put more accurately: the concept of duration. . . .
Perhaps it's worth noting that I've come to hear Cage's _Five5_
more this way.... (It's interesting, of course, because the Number
Pieces are generally quite "durational.")
Mandryka
2021-03-31 03:36:58 UTC
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Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by Mandryka
I am speaking of musical forms in which apparently nothing less
is being attempted than to explode (even to overthrow) the temporal
concept -- or, put more accurately: the concept of duration. . . .
Perhaps it's worth noting that I've come to hear Cage's _Five5_
more this way.... (It's interesting, of course, because the Number
Pieces are generally quite "durational.")
Listening to a lot of AMM at the moment - there’s a connection!
Mandryka
2021-03-31 03:35:38 UTC
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Post by Todd Michel McComb
Post by Mandryka
That's interesting because I hadn't noticed symmetry.
The symmetries are in blocks, ABA, ABBA, ABCBA, ABCBDBCBA etc.
Post by Mandryka
I am speaking of musical forms in which apparently nothing less
is being attempted than to explode (even to overthrow) the temporal
concept -- or, put more accurately: the concept of duration. . . .
I don't see how this fits Messiaen's bird pieces at all. One might
note e.g. that they incorporate time of day, etc. I mean, one could
presumably posit that exploding duration first involves maximal
embrace of duration, but.... I would call these very temporal works.
It’s true that in Messiaen’s commentaries each “moment” is linked to a time of day, and to a place. How much that helps with understanding the form of the music is another question!
Todd Michel McComb
2021-03-31 04:21:12 UTC
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It's true that in Messiaen's commentaries each "moment" is linked
to a time of day, and to a place. How much that helps with
understanding the form of the music is another question!
You can hear the time of day. These moments are thus linked in a
temporal spectrum across the cycle. The way these times/appearances
are arranged is then in a pattern across the cycle. In fact, the
small-scale patterns of the birdsong are reflected in the large-scale
juxtapositions of blocks/moments. Think of it as a sort of Book
of Hours, studiously arranged down to the particle, per a sort of
overall temporal tension....
Mandryka
2021-03-31 08:18:58 UTC
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It's true that in Messiaen's commentaries each "moment" is linked
to a time of day, and to a place. How much that helps with
understanding the form of the music is another question!
You can hear the time of day. These moments are thus linked in a
temporal spectrum across the cycle. The way these times/appearances
are arranged is then in a pattern across the cycle. In fact, the
small-scale patterns of the birdsong are reflected in the large-scale
juxtapositions of blocks/moments. Think of it as a sort of Book
of Hours, studiously arranged down to the particle, per a sort of
overall temporal tension....
You got a reference to something more detailed to read about this?
Todd Michel McComb
2021-03-31 16:32:19 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
You got a reference to something more detailed to read about this?
Sorry....

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