Discussion:
Furt wartime Beethoven 7 weirdness
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msw design
2019-07-20 13:05:01 UTC
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I was comparing waveforms between DG's release of the wartime Beethoven 7 and the new one in the BPO box (in Audition). Mostly because I was interested to see if the interventionist stereo effect the BPO applied to their new box would show up in any way.

The fourth movements are clearly the "same" in that the overall relative timings of things in each movement are essentially identical (actually one is 2.5 seconds longer than the other, but once you look past this slight pitch difference, what happens over that span is timed the same). But weirdly, the first two chords that open the movement are different. I feel half-nuts asserting this, but they are timed differently, and the second chords are just wholly different. Overall, the DG release's first two chords take a half-second less time than those in the BPO release. This isn't about pre-gap; once the music starts, these are two completely different animals.

Doesn't matter much, but I can't fathom why. Take a listen for yourself.
weary flake
2019-07-25 20:47:21 UTC
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Post by msw design
I was comparing waveforms between DG's release of the wartime Beethoven
7 and the new one in the BPO box (in Audition).
What does "in Audition" mean?
Post by msw design
Mostly because I was interested to see if the interventionist stereo
effect the BPO applied to their new box would show up in any way.
So the BPO box is in fake stereo? That would make it less trustworthy
because it didn't advertise that it is in stereo, and they might have
monkeyed with interventionist engineering in other ways.
Post by msw design
The fourth movements are clearly the "same" in that the overall
relative timings of things in each movement are essentially identical
(actually one is 2.5 seconds longer than the other, but once you look
past this slight pitch difference, what happens over that span is timed
the same). But weirdly, the first two chords that open the movement are
different. I feel half-nuts asserting this, but they are timed
differently, and the second chords are just wholly different. Overall,
the DG release's first two chords take a half-second less time than
those in the BPO release. This isn't about pre-gap; once the music
starts, these are two completely different animals.
Doesn't matter much, but I can't fathom why. Take a listen for yourself.
J.A.W.
2019-07-25 23:28:11 UTC
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Post by weary flake
Post by msw design
I was comparing waveforms between DG's release of the wartime Beethoven
7 and the new one in the BPO box (in Audition).
What does "in Audition" mean?
Post by msw design
Mostly because I was interested to see if the interventionist stereo
effect the BPO applied to their new box would show up in any way.
So the BPO box is in fake stereo? That would make it less trustworthy
because it didn't advertise that it is in stereo, and they might have
monkeyed with interventionist engineering in other ways.
Post by msw design
The fourth movements are clearly the "same" in that the overall
relative timings of things in each movement are essentially identical
(actually one is 2.5 seconds longer than the other, but once you look
past this slight pitch difference, what happens over that span is timed
the same). But weirdly, the first two chords that open the movement are
different. I feel half-nuts asserting this, but they are timed
differently, and the second chords are just wholly different. Overall,
the DG release's first two chords take a half-second less time than
those in the BPO release. This isn't about pre-gap; once the music
starts, these are two completely different animals.
Doesn't matter much, but I can't fathom why. Take a listen for yourself.
An "ambient stereo" effect was applied.
r***@gmail.com
2019-07-26 06:50:03 UTC
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Post by weary flake
Post by msw design
I was comparing waveforms between DG's release of the wartime Beethoven
7 and the new one in the BPO box (in Audition).
What does "in Audition" mean?
Adobe Audition is one part of a suite of software allowing sound and image manipulation.
msw design
2019-07-26 17:46:13 UTC
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Post by weary flake
So the BPO box is in fake stereo? That would make it less trustworthy
because it didn't advertise that it is in stereo, and they might have
monkeyed with interventionist engineering in other ways.
I'm less irritated by the effect, which is tasteful and reasonably effective, than with reviewers who fail to mention it at all and who act like we are getting to hear the master tapes, finally. Nonsense. The tapes have been prettified, and if I like how they sound, I don't need to also satisfy myself that they are the last word on these recordings, because they aren't at all. The intervention is significant- a world of difference away from what you would hear in transfers by MOT, Marston, etc. I really do think any reviewer who failed to mention it isn't worth taking seriously.
John Fowler
2019-07-27 01:22:38 UTC
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Are you sure you're not referring to Pristine Classics "ambient stereo" downloads?
msw design
2019-07-27 04:11:20 UTC
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Post by John Fowler
Are you sure you're not referring to Pristine Classics "ambient stereo" downloads?
Look, if you don't hear a stereo effect when you listen to the BPO box, fine. Your enjoyment is really all that matters. But I've been specific in my references. I completely respect your choice if that's what matters to you, and if I would consider your review incomplete, as an unpaid devotee, I'm enormously grateful for what you offer. You don't have to read any more. Put all this out of your mind and move on, if you wish.

So be warned the following is about the pleasure of knowledge more than it is of music:

Here's something that is surprising, but just as specific:

In Adobe Audition, you can use the Center Channel Extractor to isolate all frequencies shared by two L-R channels. This "center" channel and the side channels can then be mixed to produce whatever desired proportional result you want. So if you wanted to exclude all stereo content, you could dial the side channels down to zero and bring out whatever true mono exists between left and right. Or you can suppress all the mono material and listen to only the audio in the two channels that is different from each other.

Let's say you do this to DG's wartime Schubert 9, first movement. What do you get? Nearly nothing. The music, while presented in two channels, is very close to true mono. Do this to MOT's transfer of the same for Pristine, what do you get? The same- if anybody juiced the audio , it was applied as a mono effect. Do this to the same performance in the BPO box and you get a complete waveform of stereo sound- ambient effects applied to the music to produce an artificial sense of space.

You might find the stereo effect easiest to spot on the damaged Schubert "Unfinished" second movement, which sounds a might bit synthetic, they've juiced it so much.
drh8h
2019-07-27 11:11:11 UTC
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Post by msw design
Post by John Fowler
Are you sure you're not referring to Pristine Classics "ambient stereo" downloads?
Look, if you don't hear a stereo effect when you listen to the BPO box, fine. Your enjoyment is really all that matters. But I've been specific in my references. I completely respect your choice if that's what matters to you, and if I would consider your review incomplete, as an unpaid devotee, I'm enormously grateful for what you offer. You don't have to read any more. Put all this out of your mind and move on, if you wish.
In Adobe Audition, you can use the Center Channel Extractor to isolate all frequencies shared by two L-R channels. This "center" channel and the side channels can then be mixed to produce whatever desired proportional result you want. So if you wanted to exclude all stereo content, you could dial the side channels down to zero and bring out whatever true mono exists between left and right. Or you can suppress all the mono material and listen to only the audio in the two channels that is different from each other.
Let's say you do this to DG's wartime Schubert 9, first movement. What do you get? Nearly nothing. The music, while presented in two channels, is very close to true mono. Do this to MOT's transfer of the same for Pristine, what do you get? The same- if anybody juiced the audio , it was applied as a mono effect. Do this to the same performance in the BPO box and you get a complete waveform of stereo sound- ambient effects applied to the music to produce an artificial sense of space.
You might find the stereo effect easiest to spot on the damaged Schubert "Unfinished" second movement, which sounds a might bit synthetic, they've juiced it so much.
I don't believe M O-T transferred the wartime Schubert 9; that is a Pristine production. Mark did give us the 8th and 9th studio recordings for Naxos.

DH
J.A.W.
2019-07-28 15:59:57 UTC
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Post by drh8h
Post by msw design
Post by John Fowler
Are you sure you're not referring to Pristine Classics "ambient stereo" downloads?
Look, if you don't hear a stereo effect when you listen to the BPO box, fine. Your enjoyment is really all that matters. But I've been specific in my references. I completely respect your choice if that's what matters to you, and if I would consider your review incomplete, as an unpaid devotee, I'm enormously grateful for what you offer. You don't have to read any more. Put all this out of your mind and move on, if you wish.
In Adobe Audition, you can use the Center Channel Extractor to isolate all frequencies shared by two L-R channels. This "center" channel and the side channels can then be mixed to produce whatever desired proportional result you want. So if you wanted to exclude all stereo content, you could dial the side channels down to zero and bring out whatever true mono exists between left and right. Or you can suppress all the mono material and listen to only the audio in the two channels that is different from each other.
Let's say you do this to DG's wartime Schubert 9, first movement. What do you get? Nearly nothing. The music, while presented in two channels, is very close to true mono. Do this to MOT's transfer of the same for Pristine, what do you get? The same- if anybody juiced the audio , it was applied as a mono effect. Do this to the same performance in the BPO box and you get a complete waveform of stereo sound- ambient effects applied to the music to produce an artificial sense of space.
You might find the stereo effect easiest to spot on the damaged Schubert "Unfinished" second movement, which sounds a might bit synthetic, they've juiced it so much.
I don't believe M O-T transferred the wartime Schubert 9; that is a Pristine production. Mark did give us the 8th and 9th studio recordings for Naxos.
DH
Correct. As far as I know M O-T never applied any ambient stereo effects to his remasters. Pristine, on the other hand, did and so did the people who mastered the Furtwängler/pre-war BPO-set.
J.A.W.
2019-07-28 17:04:30 UTC
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Post by J.A.W.
Post by drh8h
Post by msw design
Post by John Fowler
Are you sure you're not referring to Pristine Classics "ambient stereo" downloads?
Look, if you don't hear a stereo effect when you listen to the BPO box, fine. Your enjoyment is really all that matters. But I've been specific in my references. I completely respect your choice if that's what matters to you, and if I would consider your review incomplete, as an unpaid devotee, I'm enormously grateful for what you offer. You don't have to read any more. Put all this out of your mind and move on, if you wish.
In Adobe Audition, you can use the Center Channel Extractor to isolate all frequencies shared by two L-R channels. This "center" channel and the side channels can then be mixed to produce whatever desired proportional result you want. So if you wanted to exclude all stereo content, you could dial the side channels down to zero and bring out whatever true mono exists between left and right. Or you can suppress all the mono material and listen to only the audio in the two channels that is different from each other.
Let's say you do this to DG's wartime Schubert 9, first movement. What do you get? Nearly nothing. The music, while presented in two channels, is very close to true mono. Do this to MOT's transfer of the same for Pristine, what do you get? The same- if anybody juiced the audio , it was applied as a mono effect. Do this to the same performance in the BPO box and you get a complete waveform of stereo sound- ambient effects applied to the music to produce an artificial sense of space.
You might find the stereo effect easiest to spot on the damaged Schubert "Unfinished" second movement, which sounds a might bit synthetic, they've juiced it so much.
I don't believe M O-T transferred the wartime Schubert 9; that is a Pristine production. Mark did give us the 8th and 9th studio recordings for Naxos.
DH
Correct. As far as I know M O-T never applied any ambient stereo effects to his remasters. Pristine, on the other hand, did and so did the people who mastered the Furtwängler/pre-war BPO-set.
Oops, that should be "Furtwängler/wartime BPO set", of course.

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