Discussion:
Bach St Matthew Passion -seeking recomendations.
(too old to reply)
j***@yahoo.com
2007-07-16 20:33:22 UTC
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I have Klemperer, Gardiner and Harnoncourt on CD and Karajan on vinyl.
But I like this work a lot and I need more. Any must-haves?
Cephalicus
2007-07-16 20:51:25 UTC
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In article
Post by j***@yahoo.com
I have Klemperer, Gardiner and Harnoncourt on CD and Karajan on
vinyl.But I like this work a lot and I need more. Any must-haves?
I personally love the 1984 recording by

Philippe Herreweghe with
La Chapelle Royale and
Collegium Vocale Gent

Label: Harmonia Mundi (HMX 2901155.57)

--
I'm trying a new usenet client for Mac, Nemo OS X.
You can download it at http://www.malcom-mac.com/nemo
Simon Roberts
2007-07-16 20:52:10 UTC
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Post by j***@yahoo.com
I have Klemperer, Gardiner and Harnoncourt on CD and Karajan on vinyl.
But I like this work a lot and I need more. Any must-haves?
I wouldn't want to be without both of Herreweghe's, Leonhardt's, either or both
of Koopman's, Goennenwein's and perhaps the most recent of Rilling's.

Simon
j***@yahoo.com
2007-07-16 22:59:33 UTC
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Post by Simon Roberts
I wouldn't want to be without both of Herreweghe's, Leonhardt's, either or both
of Koopman's, Goennenwein's and perhaps the most recent of Rilling's.
Thanks Simon. I'll be looking out for these.
Carlo Gerelli
2007-07-17 07:26:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Roberts
Post by j***@yahoo.com
I have Klemperer, Gardiner and Harnoncourt on CD and Karajan on vinyl.
But I like this work a lot and I need more. Any must-haves?
I wouldn't want to be without both of Herreweghe's, Leonhardt's, either or both
of Koopman's, Goennenwein's and perhaps the most recent of Rilling's.
I did not know there were multiple versions by RIlling: is the most
recent the one with Goerne, Quasthoff, Oelze etc on the Hanssler
label?

thanks, regards

Carlo
Simon Roberts
2007-07-17 13:58:41 UTC
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In article <***@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, Carlo
Gerelli says...
Post by Carlo Gerelli
Post by Simon Roberts
Post by j***@yahoo.com
I have Klemperer, Gardiner and Harnoncourt on CD and Karajan on vinyl.
But I like this work a lot and I need more. Any must-haves?
I wouldn't want to be without both of Herreweghe's, Leonhardt's, either or both
of Koopman's, Goennenwein's and perhaps the most recent of Rilling's.
I did not know there were multiple versions by RIlling: is the most
recent the one with Goerne, Quasthoff, Oelze etc on the Hanssler
label?
I think so; at any rate, that's the one I'm referring to (though the recent
release of yet another Rilling B Minor Mass makes me wonder whether he'll
rerecord the passions as well).

Anyone interested in one-per-part performances might like to know there's a good
chance Minkowski will be recording it (his minimalist B Minor Mass will appear
before too long on Naive; the live performance I've heard is marvelous, so I'm
optimistic).

Simon
Jon Alan Conrad
2007-07-18 17:06:08 UTC
Permalink
I want to put in a word for Solti, which I find extremely successful;
I had expected it to be "school of Klemperer," but instead it's more
in the vein of his excellent Mozart operas: buoyant, meaningful,
pointed, balanced, always saying something but without superimposed
weightiness. He also has the advantage (in addition to a fine Chicago
Symphony contingent) of their superlative professional choir and a
choice group of soloists: Blochwitz, Baer, Te Kanawa (at her very
best), Von Otter, Rolfe Johnson, and Krause.

JAC
R***@gmail.com
2007-07-16 21:23:38 UTC
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Post by j***@yahoo.com
I have Klemperer, Gardiner and Harnoncourt on CD and Karajan on vinyl.
But I like this work a lot and I need more. Any must-haves?
Which Harnoncourt? The very first (with boys voices singing the
soprano arias and in the choruses) is a remarkable pioneering
achievement, the last one is a beautifully put together ensemble
recording with excellent (female) singers ... and there's one in the
middle with the Concertgebouw which is ok but not too memorable.

If you can find it, do not miss Scherchen's which is even more
compellingly conducted than Klemperer's and has in Cuenod and Rehfuss
two of the greatest interpreters of the Evangelist and Jesus.

The singers on both Rilling's latest and Gonnenwein's EMI are very
fine - both conductors allow them to give their best - and they also
have spendid choral work. I have fond memories of the singing on
Woldike's Vanguard recording but I think its long gone and probably
surpassed by the above, though Woldike's conducting was
unspectacularly intense.
j***@yahoo.com
2007-07-16 22:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by R***@gmail.com
Which Harnoncourt? The very first (with boys voices singing the
soprano arias and in the choruses) is a remarkable pioneering
achievement, the last one is a beautifully put together ensemble
recording with excellent (female) singers ... and there's one in the
middle with the Concertgebouw which is ok but not too memorable.
I have the performance recorded in Vienna, 1970 on Teldec.
Post by R***@gmail.com
If you can find it, do not miss Scherchen's which is even more
compellingly conducted than Klemperer's and has in Cuenod and Rehfuss
two of the greatest interpreters of the Evangelist and Jesus.
Btw, has anyone here had a chance to compare the sound between the
Klemperer performance on CD as opposed to the original vinyl issue? I
only have the cd and never heard it on vinyl but the sound on the cd
is pretty poor with its hard edginess. I'm suspecting its the CD
transfer but of course it my be the original recording.
Post by R***@gmail.com
The singers on both Rilling's latest and Gonnenwein's EMI are very
fine - both conductors allow them to give their best - and they also
have spendid choral work. I have fond memories of the singing on
Woldike's Vanguard recording but I think its long gone and probably
surpassed by the above, though Woldike's conducting was
unspectacularly intense.
I like much Woldike's old Vienna Opera Orchestra Haydn recordings.
Maybee I'll hunt down his Passion.
Richard Loeb
2007-07-17 00:39:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
Post by R***@gmail.com
Which Harnoncourt? The very first (with boys voices singing the
soprano arias and in the choruses) is a remarkable pioneering
achievement, the last one is a beautifully put together ensemble
recording with excellent (female) singers ... and there's one in the
middle with the Concertgebouw which is ok but not too memorable.
I have the performance recorded in Vienna, 1970 on Teldec.
Post by R***@gmail.com
If you can find it, do not miss Scherchen's which is even more
compellingly conducted than Klemperer's and has in Cuenod and Rehfuss
two of the greatest interpreters of the Evangelist and Jesus.
Btw, has anyone here had a chance to compare the sound between the
Klemperer performance on CD as opposed to the original vinyl issue? I
only have the cd and never heard it on vinyl but the sound on the cd
is pretty poor with its hard edginess. I'm suspecting its the CD
transfer but of course it my be the original recording.
Post by R***@gmail.com
The singers on both Rilling's latest and Gonnenwein's EMI are very
fine - both conductors allow them to give their best - and they also
have spendid choral work. I have fond memories of the singing on
Woldike's Vanguard recording but I think its long gone and probably
surpassed by the above, though Woldike's conducting was
unspectacularly intense.
I like much Woldike's old Vienna Opera Orchestra Haydn recordings.
Maybee I'll hunt down his Passion.
The sound on the Woldike is wonderful and the final chorus is overwhelming -
the interpretation is rather objective and unromantic which may or may not
be a good thing and some of the solists have been bettered on other
recordings (Braun's Jesus is a really dull stick). But the whole has a nice
cumulative impact - the booklet with the orginal set was beautiful! I will
also second the Scherchen Matthew Passion which is the one I go back to most
often - very very special!!!! Richard
d***@aol.com
2007-07-17 08:55:08 UTC
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Paul Ilechko
2007-07-17 00:36:59 UTC
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Post by j***@yahoo.com
I have Klemperer, Gardiner and Harnoncourt on CD and Karajan on vinyl.
But I like this work a lot and I need more. Any must-haves?
Gachinger Kantorei Stuttgart/Bach-Collegium Stuttgart, Rilling
d***@aol.com
2007-07-17 05:15:34 UTC
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d***@aol.com
2007-07-17 05:17:17 UTC
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TareeDawg
2007-07-17 05:45:18 UTC
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Normally, Brüggen is mentioned as the HIPster for people who otherwise
hate HIP. What's his recording like? Does Brüggen's phrasing
resemble traditional phrasing, or does he supply yet one more
speculative and idiosyncratic approach with an absolutely smoothly
planing dynamics articulated by some sort of détaché style, whether
exaggeratedly alla francese as in so many of Harnoncourt's Bach
cantata recordings or more reticently -- the dying sigh approach to
detached phrasing -- as in, say, Koopman's performances? Nobody
projects the shapes of Bach's individual constituent motives any
more: rather the entire continuity is subsumed under a smoothly
planing whole, broken, of course, only by some sort of détaché style.
I actually dislike virtually all performances of Bach's cantatas and
Passions and of the B minor Mass, since I like neither the vast camp
that encompasses Furtwängler, Mengelberg, Karajan, Solti, et al on the
one hand nor the camp that encompasses most HIPsters, most
emphatically including John Eliot Gardiner. So what about Rilling?
Doesn't he walk a fine line with his traditional approaches to
phrasing and his HIP influenced tempi and lightness of touch? I
suppose, and I rather like many of his recordings of Bach cantatas,
but "rather" is the key word: I never feel as if he's the Second
Coming. He's always my choice faute de mieux.
I wonder about performances by some of the older HIPsters.
Unfortunately, the earliest so-called HIP Matthew Passion didn't come
along until 1970. What is Corboz like?
Fwiw, for modern instruments, with a slightly taddish HIP approach, then
you might try Helmut Mueller-Bruehl, and cantata BWV 169, with alto
Marianne Beate Kielland, on Naxos (8.557621). The opening Sinfonia
(nearly 8mins) is a real joy, and exactly how I love my Bach to go. It
really swings too. Cologne Chamber orchestra and Bach Choir do the honours.

Haven't checked as whether same forces have done the St. Matthew, but
above CD is a gem.

Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
R***@gmail.com
2007-07-17 08:10:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by TareeDawg
Normally, Brüggen is mentioned as the HIPster for people who otherwise
hate HIP. What's his recording like? Does Brüggen's phrasing
resemble traditional phrasing, or does he supply yet one more
speculative and idiosyncratic approach with an absolutely smoothly
planing dynamics articulated by some sort of détaché style, whether
exaggeratedly alla francese as in so many of Harnoncourt's Bach
cantata recordings or more reticently -- the dying sigh approach to
detached phrasing -- as in, say, Koopman's performances? Nobody
projects the shapes of Bach's individual constituent motives any
more: rather the entire continuity is subsumed under a smoothly
planing whole, broken, of course, only by some sort of détaché style.
I actually dislike virtually all performances of Bach's cantatas and
Passions and of the B minor Mass, since I like neither the vast camp
that encompasses Furtwängler, Mengelberg, Karajan, Solti, et al on the
one hand nor the camp that encompasses most HIPsters, most
emphatically including John Eliot Gardiner. So what about Rilling?
Doesn't he walk a fine line with his traditional approaches to
phrasing and his HIP influenced tempi and lightness of touch? I
suppose, and I rather like many of his recordings of Bach cantatas,
but "rather" is the key word: I never feel as if he's the Second
Coming. He's always my choice faute de mieux.
I wonder about performances by some of the older HIPsters.
Unfortunately, the earliest so-called HIP Matthew Passion didn't come
along until 1970. What is Corboz like?
Fwiw, for modern instruments, with a slightly taddish HIP approach, then
you might try Helmut Mueller-Bruehl, and cantata BWV 169, with alto
Marianne Beate Kielland, on Naxos (8.557621). The opening Sinfonia
(nearly 8mins) is a real joy, and exactly how I love my Bach to go. It
really swings too. Cologne Chamber orchestra and Bach Choir do the honours.
Haven't checked as whether same forces have done the St. Matthew, but
above CD is a gem.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
I really must check out Mueller-Bruehl's Bach - have you heard the B
minor Mass and is it as excellent as (some of) the reviews say?
TareeDawg
2007-07-17 09:56:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by R***@gmail.com
Post by TareeDawg
Normally, Brüggen is mentioned as the HIPster for people who otherwise
hate HIP. What's his recording like? Does Brüggen's phrasing
resemble traditional phrasing, or does he supply yet one more
speculative and idiosyncratic approach with an absolutely smoothly
planing dynamics articulated by some sort of détaché style, whether
exaggeratedly alla francese as in so many of Harnoncourt's Bach
cantata recordings or more reticently -- the dying sigh approach to
detached phrasing -- as in, say, Koopman's performances? Nobody
projects the shapes of Bach's individual constituent motives any
more: rather the entire continuity is subsumed under a smoothly
planing whole, broken, of course, only by some sort of détaché style.
I actually dislike virtually all performances of Bach's cantatas and
Passions and of the B minor Mass, since I like neither the vast camp
that encompasses Furtwängler, Mengelberg, Karajan, Solti, et al on the
one hand nor the camp that encompasses most HIPsters, most
emphatically including John Eliot Gardiner. So what about Rilling?
Doesn't he walk a fine line with his traditional approaches to
phrasing and his HIP influenced tempi and lightness of touch? I
suppose, and I rather like many of his recordings of Bach cantatas,
but "rather" is the key word: I never feel as if he's the Second
Coming. He's always my choice faute de mieux.
I wonder about performances by some of the older HIPsters.
Unfortunately, the earliest so-called HIP Matthew Passion didn't come
along until 1970. What is Corboz like?
Fwiw, for modern instruments, with a slightly taddish HIP approach, then
you might try Helmut Mueller-Bruehl, and cantata BWV 169, with alto
Marianne Beate Kielland, on Naxos (8.557621). The opening Sinfonia
(nearly 8mins) is a real joy, and exactly how I love my Bach to go. It
really swings too. Cologne Chamber orchestra and Bach Choir do the honours.
Haven't checked as whether same forces have done the St. Matthew, but
above CD is a gem.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
I really must check out Mueller-Bruehl's Bach - have you heard the B
minor Mass and is it as excellent as (some of) the reviews say?
Thanks for alerting me to it, and I will check it out.

Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
Simon Roberts
2007-07-17 13:55:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by R***@gmail.com
I really must check out Mueller-Bruehl's Bach - have you heard the B
minor Mass and is it as excellent as (some of) the reviews say?
If I can stick my nose in, I found it disappointingly small-scale, the rather
recessed recording adding to the effect. This is nothing like the vivid
experience provided by his more recent Haydn symphony recordings.

Simon
John Thomas
2007-07-18 14:01:25 UTC
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Post by R***@gmail.com
I really must check out Mueller-Bruehl's Bach - have you heard the B
minor Mass and is it as excellent as (some of) the reviews say?
Yes; arguably the "best" on CD. If you can find a copy of the now
deleted Hybrid SACD/Surround Sound version even better.
--
jwt
d***@aol.com
2007-07-19 11:23:21 UTC
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Post by R***@gmail.com
I really must check out Mueller-Bruehl's Bach - have you heard the B
minor Mass and is it as excellent as (some of) the reviews say?
No, it's ghastly in the extreme. At least the opening Kyrie is
inoffensive albeit entirely lacking in imagination -- po faced would
be a good description -- but the second movement Christe is something
else, and not just because of the oddly jaunty tempo. The truly
bizarre phrasing here has to be heard to be believed. The dynamics
are absolutely smoothly applied as if by somebody dialing a rheostat
with the result that the listener's experience of the movement
resembles nothing so much as a roller coaster ride: as the dynamics
fluctuate with each twist of the rheostat, the effect on the solar
plexus is precisely the same.

With the proliferation of such absurd licentiousness now being greeted
with extravagant praise even as every last vestige of the sort of
phrasing characteristic of all pre-HIP performance has been expunged,
the attitude motivating the HIP movement has triumphed, and a
synthetic Frankenstein's monster reigns supreme.

Classical performance traditions, RIP.

-david gable

d***@aol.com
2007-07-17 07:25:31 UTC
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