Discussion:
Chopin - Piano Concerto #2 - Krystian Zimerman
(too old to reply)
JohnGavin
2009-04-07 00:59:38 UTC
Permalink
I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs. - I'm totally blown away,
particularly with the performance of the PC #2. WOW! This is
superlative in every way. A revelation - the orchestra directed by
the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
time.

Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere. Stunning,
drop-dead beautiful. A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
into this great recording.

(The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
totally convincing as #2).

Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
second to none.
jpjones
2009-04-07 01:08:58 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes

On Apr 6, 8:59 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs. - I'm totally blown away,
> particularly with the performance of the PC #2. WOW! This is
> superlative in every way. A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> time.
>
> Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere. Stunning,
> drop-dead beautiful. A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> into this great recording.
>
> (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> totally convincing as #2).
>
> Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> second to none.

Zimerman is outstanding, and he cultivates one of the most beautiful
piano tones to be heard today.

jpj
Sol L. Siegel
2009-04-07 02:47:52 UTC
Permalink
jpjones wrote:

> Zimerman is outstanding, and he cultivates one of the most beautiful
> piano tones to be heard today.

Agreed. Perhaps someday I'll get to hear it again.

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
(...who's now had KZ cancel on him back-to-back.)
td
2009-04-07 09:15:50 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 6, 10:47 pm, "Sol L. Siegel" <***@aol.com> wrote:
> jpjones wrote:
> > Zimerman is outstanding, and he cultivates one of the most beautiful
> > piano tones to be heard today.
>
> Agreed.  Perhaps someday I'll get to hear it again.
>
>   - Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
> (...who's now had KZ cancel on him back-to-back.)

Go to CH, Sol. You won't regret it.

TD
Steve de Mena
2009-04-07 01:37:21 UTC
Permalink
JohnGavin wrote:
> I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs. - I'm totally blown away,
> particularly with the performance of the PC #2. WOW! This is
> superlative in every way. A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> time.
>
> Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere. Stunning,
> drop-dead beautiful. A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> into this great recording.
>
> (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> totally convincing as #2).
>
> Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> second to none.

I agree, it was a revelation to me, especially after cherishing his
recordings with Giulini and the LAPO. I happen to prefer PC #1
though, I just find that a more enjoyable work.

Steve
td
2009-04-07 09:14:59 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 6, 8:59 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs.  -  I'm totally blown away,
> particularly with the performance of the PC #2.  WOW!   This is
> superlative in every way.  A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> time.
>
> Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere.  Stunning,
> drop-dead beautiful.  A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> into this great recording.
>
> (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> totally convincing as #2).
>
> Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> second to none.

John, I first heard this performance in Cologne, Germany, at a DG
convention. After that I simply HAD to hear all the remaining
performances in their tour, so I travelled everywhere, finally to
Warsaw, where they gave their final performance. What was amazing was
that each performance was a mirror image of that first one, which was
a mirror image of the disc, which was recorded before the tour even
began.

You're right. Unbelievable rubato. Not just the pianist, but also the
orchestra. Can you believe the rehearsals that kind of playing
required? Simply amazing. I have never heard it before or since.

This is simply a ne plus ultra CD of the Chopin concerti.

TD
h***@yahoo.com
2009-04-07 12:10:39 UTC
Permalink
On 7 avr, 11:14, td <***@mac.com> wrote:

> What was amazing was
> that each performance was a mirror image of that first one, which was
> a mirror image of the disc, which was recorded before the tour even
> began.
>
I'm not sure if I would admire this aspect.

Herman
tomdeacon
2009-04-07 12:26:18 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 7, 8:10 am, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
> On 7 avr, 11:14, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > What was amazing was
> > that each performance was a mirror image of that first one, which was
> > a mirror image of the disc, which was recorded before the tour even
> > began.
>
> I'm not sure if I would admire this aspect.

I know what you mean.

However, if there were differences, they were very, very, very slight.

Zimerman is not a man who likes things to happen by chance, you know.
Everything is planned, even the rubatos. Always.

Rachmaninoff was the same. Once he had arrived at an interpretation,
he basically stuck with it.

TD
h***@yahoo.com
2009-04-07 12:37:48 UTC
Permalink
On 7 avr, 14:26, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:
> On Apr 7, 8:10 am, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > On 7 avr, 11:14, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > > What was amazing was
> > > that each performance was a mirror image of that first one, which was
> > > a mirror image of the disc, which was recorded before the tour even
> > > began.
>
> > I'm not sure if I would admire this aspect.
>
> I know what you mean.
>
> However, if there were differences, they were very, very, very slight.
>
> Zimerman is not a man who likes things to happen by chance, you know.
> Everything is planned, even the rubatos. Always.
>
The result of this may be he gives very few recitals / concerts, since
there is little to enjoy for him. If every night is and should be 99%
the same there is a lot of stress and an early onset of tedium, don't
you think so?

Herman
x***@email.msn.com
2009-04-07 17:40:10 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 7, 5:37 am, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
> On 7 avr, 14:26, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 7, 8:10 am, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > On 7 avr, 11:14, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > > > What was amazing was
> > > > that each performance was a mirror image of that first one, which was
> > > > a mirror image of the disc, which was recorded before the tour even
> > > > began.
>
> > > I'm not sure if I would admire this aspect.
>
> > I know what you mean.
>
> > However, if there were differences, they were very, very, very slight.
>
> > Zimerman is not a man who likes things to happen by chance, you know.
> > Everything is planned, even the rubatos. Always.
>
> The result of this may be he gives very few recitals / concerts, since
> there is little to enjoy for him. If every night is and should be 99%
> the same there is a lot of stress and an early onset of tedium, don't
> you think so?
>
> Herman

And his poor health also part of reason, that's why he is canceling
again his current US tour, left Cleveland and Philadelphia with no
substitution.
Steve de Mena
2009-04-07 19:24:55 UTC
Permalink
***@email.msn.com wrote:
> On Apr 7, 5:37 am, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On 7 avr, 14:26, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Apr 7, 8:10 am, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On 7 avr, 11:14, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
>>>>> What was amazing was
>>>>> that each performance was a mirror image of that first one, which was
>>>>> a mirror image of the disc, which was recorded before the tour even
>>>>> began.
>>>> I'm not sure if I would admire this aspect.
>>> I know what you mean.
>>> However, if there were differences, they were very, very, very slight.
>>> Zimerman is not a man who likes things to happen by chance, you know.
>>> Everything is planned, even the rubatos. Always.
>> The result of this may be he gives very few recitals / concerts, since
>> there is little to enjoy for him. If every night is and should be 99%
>> the same there is a lot of stress and an early onset of tedium, don't
>> you think so?
>>
>> Herman
>
> And his poor health also part of reason, that's why he is canceling
> again his current US tour, left Cleveland and Philadelphia with no
> substitution.

I wonder if he'll appear in Los Angeles April 26th. I have a ticket.
No notice yet on the LA Phil web site. They do list a program now:

Bach: Partita No. 2 in C minor, BWV 826
Beethoven: Sonata No. 32 in C minor, Op. 111
Brahms: Klavierstücke, Op. 119
Szymanowski: Variations on a Polish Theme, Op. 10

Steve
JohnGavin
2009-04-07 12:49:14 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 7, 8:26 am, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:
> On Apr 7, 8:10 am, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > On 7 avr, 11:14, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > > What was amazing was
> > > that each performance was a mirror image of that first one, which was
> > > a mirror image of the disc, which was recorded before the tour even
> > > began.
>
> > I'm not sure if I would admire this aspect.
>
> I know what you mean.
>
> However, if there were differences, they were very, very, very slight.
>
> Zimerman is not a man who likes things to happen by chance, you know.
> Everything is planned, even the rubatos. Always.
>
> Rachmaninoff was the same. Once he had arrived at an interpretation,
> he basically stuck with it.
>
> TD

Even more true of ABM. As I've said before, I think Zimerman models
his outlook closely to Michelangeli's. I'd also guess that. like M,
Zimerman's piano has to respond in a certain way in order for him to
go ahead with a concert.

I don't think this performing philosophy leads to tedium however.
Perfectionists view performances as an opportunity to realize their
ideals - a goal that probably remains elusive in the ultimate sense.
tomdeacon
2009-04-07 13:12:01 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 7, 8:49 am, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Apr 7, 8:26 am, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 7, 8:10 am, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > On 7 avr, 11:14, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > > > What was amazing was
> > > > that each performance was a mirror image of that first one, which was
> > > > a mirror image of the disc, which was recorded before the tour even
> > > > began.
>
> > > I'm not sure if I would admire this aspect.
>
> > I know what you mean.
>
> > However, if there were differences, they were very, very, very slight.
>
> > Zimerman is not a man who likes things to happen by chance, you know.
> > Everything is planned, even the rubatos. Always.
>
> > Rachmaninoff was the same. Once he had arrived at an interpretation,
> > he basically stuck with it.
>
> > TD
>
> Even more true of ABM.  As I've said before, I think Zimerman models
> his outlook closely to Michelangeli's.  I'd also guess that. like M,
> Zimerman's piano has to respond in a certain way in order for him to
> go ahead with a concert.
>
> I don't think this performing philosophy leads to tedium however.
> Perfectionists view performances as an opportunity to realize their
> ideals - a goal that probably remains elusive in the ultimate sense.

I agree, John.

TD
a***@att.net
2009-04-08 18:38:29 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 6, 8:59 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs.  -  I'm totally blown away,
> particularly with the performance of the PC #2.  WOW!   This is
> superlative in every way.  A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> time.
>
> Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere.  Stunning,
> drop-dead beautiful.  A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> into this great recording.
>
> (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> totally convincing as #2).
>
> Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> second to none.

I must disagree........ I find the playing a bit boring, lacks color
and is dull IMO. Like TD describes Volodos:-)

AB
td
2009-04-08 18:40:37 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 8, 2:38 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
> On Apr 6, 8:59 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> > Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs.  -  I'm totally blown away,
> > particularly with the performance of the PC #2.  WOW!   This is
> > superlative in every way.  A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> > the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> > this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> > time.
>
> > Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere.  Stunning,
> > drop-dead beautiful.  A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> > into this great recording.
>
> > (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> > totally convincing as #2).
>
> > Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> > second to none.
>
> I must disagree........ I find the playing a bit boring, lacks color
> and is dull IMO. Like TD describes Volodos:-)

But of course you do.

We wouldn't expect anything else.

TD
JohnGavin
2009-04-08 19:12:49 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 8, 2:38 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
> On Apr 6, 8:59 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> > Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs.  -  I'm totally blown away,
> > particularly with the performance of the PC #2.  WOW!   This is
> > superlative in every way.  A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> > the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> > this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> > time.
>
> > Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere.  Stunning,
> > drop-dead beautiful.  A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> > into this great recording.
>
> > (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> > totally convincing as #2).
>
> > Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> > second to none.
>
> I must disagree........ I find the playing a bit boring, lacks color
> and is dull IMO. Like TD describes Volodos:-)
>
> AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan. The recordings of his that I have
so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
toughfulness.

A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
refinement and mastery.

I don't find him boring in the least - but rather totally engrossing
- the sheer quality of his work is a joy to hear.
Steve Emerson
2009-04-08 19:54:04 UTC
Permalink
In article
<d324fc49-15ca-482a-bb30-***@w9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:

> I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan. The recordings of his that I have
> so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> toughfulness.
>
> A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> refinement and mastery.

I was very put off by his Ballades. Conceptually I didn't mind them, but
the playing felt stiff, careful, cramped, and that made the
interpretations themselves appear fussy. "Feeling of spontaneity" would
be the last term one would use.

My take on what another poster termed "doesn't leave things up to
chance."

Earlier JG compared Zimerman to ABM -- but with ABM, no matter how
considered, thought-out, and rehearsed -- I can't think of a single one
of his performances that has the problem that bothers me in Z's Ballades
(every time I hear them).

I wasn't much taken with the rest of that disc either. This put me off
of Zimerman for a long time. Later on when I heard his Lutoslawski
concerto and his and Danczowska's wonderful recording of Szymanowski, I
finally saw there was another side to him. I'll be interested eventually
to hear his early Brahms and Mozart sonata recordings. Maybe the things
he wants suppressed will be the ones that appeal to me.

Meanwhile I'll make an effort to re-hear the Brahms PC2 recording.

SE.
Simon Roberts
2009-04-08 21:32:47 UTC
Permalink
In article <emersn-***@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net>, Steve
Emerson says...

>I was very put off by his Ballades. Conceptually I didn't mind them, but
>the playing felt stiff, careful, cramped, and that made the
>interpretations themselves appear fussy. "Feeling of spontaneity" would
>be the last term one would use.

I'm rather surprised I haven't seen the re-recording of the piano concertos
under discussion in this thread criticized here as being fussy (and amazed that
anyone finds them dull - annoying, perhaps, but dull?). I happen to like what
he does in the concertos, but can't imagine listening to them more than once
every few years.

Simon
td
2009-04-09 00:50:24 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 8, 5:32 pm, Simon Roberts <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> In article <emersn-***@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net>, Steve
> Emerson says...
>
> >I was very put off by his Ballades. Conceptually I didn't mind them, but
> >the playing felt stiff, careful, cramped, and that made the
> >interpretations themselves appear fussy. "Feeling of spontaneity" would
> >be the last term one would use.
>
> I'm rather surprised I haven't seen the re-recording of the piano concertos
> under discussion in this thread criticized here as being fussy (and amazed that
> anyone finds them dull - annoying, perhaps, but dull?).  I happen to like what
> he does in the concertos, but can't imagine listening to them more than once
> every few years.

Fair enough.

But you wouldn't want to listen to ANY recordings of the Chopin
concertos more than every few years. They are thin gruel, you know,
particularly when compared to his later works or to Beethoven, Mozart,
and Brahms Picos, for example.

TD
a***@att.net
2009-04-09 17:56:04 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 8, 5:32 pm, Simon Roberts <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> In article <emersn-***@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net>, Steve
> Emerson says...
>
> >I was very put off by his Ballades. Conceptually I didn't mind them, but
> >the playing felt stiff, careful, cramped, and that made the
> >interpretations themselves appear fussy. "Feeling of spontaneity" would
> >be the last term one would use.
>
> I'm rather surprised I haven't seen the re-recording of the piano concertos
> under discussion in this thread criticized here as being fussy (and amazed that
> anyone finds them dull - annoying, perhaps, but dull?).  I happen to like what
> he does in the concertos, but can't imagine listening to them more than once
> every few years.
>
> Simon

for me they are dull, and therefore, yes they are annoying for that
reason....

AB
JohnGavin
2009-04-09 13:17:18 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 8, 3:54 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article
> <d324fc49-15ca-482a-bb30-***@w9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
>
>  JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan.  The recordings of his that I have
> > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > toughfulness.
>
> > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > refinement and mastery.
>
> I was very put off by his Ballades. Conceptually I didn't mind them, but
> the playing felt stiff, careful, cramped, and that made the
> interpretations themselves appear fussy. "Feeling of spontaneity" would
> be the last term one would use.
>
I can understand this recording, or Zimerman in general not being to
everyone's liking. For me his Ballades are carefully distilled, but I
would not say they are stiff or even fussy. I find his playing
generally straightforward, even if the tempi are broader than usual.
The pleasure of this recording for me lies in savoring the beautiful
piano sonority without a hint of clunkyness or percussiveness
(something that mars so many modern piano recordings IMO) -
beautifully transparent details of touch and texture - there is
something quintessentially Chopinesque in Zs playing - the bel canto,
the rubato etc.

In an effort to thin out my collection, I compared Zs Ballade #2 with
Pollini's, and decided that Pollini had to go - comparitively clumsy
phrasing.

But, you're right - Zimerman is not a free-wheeling, heat-of-the-
moment spontaneous player.
td
2009-04-09 13:27:29 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 9, 9:17 am, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Apr 8, 3:54 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <d324fc49-15ca-482a-bb30-***@w9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >  JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan.  The recordings of his that I have
> > > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > > toughfulness.
>
> > > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > > refinement and mastery.
>
> > I was very put off by his Ballades. Conceptually I didn't mind them, but
> > the playing felt stiff, careful, cramped, and that made the
> > interpretations themselves appear fussy. "Feeling of spontaneity" would
> > be the last term one would use.
>
> I can understand this recording, or Zimerman in general not being to
> everyone's liking.  For me his Ballades are carefully distilled, but I
> would not say they are stiff or even fussy.  I find his playing
> generally straightforward, even if the tempi are broader than usual.
> The pleasure of this recording for me lies in savoring the beautiful
> piano sonority without a hint of clunkyness or percussiveness
> (something that mars so many modern piano recordings IMO) -
> beautifully transparent details of touch and texture - there is
> something quintessentially Chopinesque in Zs playing - the bel canto,
> the rubato etc.
>
> In an effort to thin out my collection, I compared Zs Ballade #2 with
> Pollini's, and decided that Pollini had to go - comparitively clumsy
> phrasing.
>
> But, you're right - Zimerman is not a free-wheeling, heat-of-the-
> moment spontaneous player.

And he never was, John.

Always thought of him as "the young prince" of the keyboard right from
the start. Very elegant, refined, virtuosic, but poetic in a
completely non-sloppy way.

Very sad to see that ill health has prevented him from fulfilling his
tour obligations this Spring in the USA.

TD

TD
jpjones
2009-04-09 17:59:53 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes

On Apr 9, 9:17 am, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:

>
> I can understand this recording, or Zimerman in general not being to
> everyone's liking. For me his Ballades are carefully distilled, but I
> would not say they are stiff or even fussy. I find his playing
> generally straightforward, even if the tempi are broader than usual.
> The pleasure of this recording for me lies in savoring the beautiful
> piano sonority without a hint of clunkyness or percussiveness
> (something that mars so many modern piano recordings IMO) -
> beautifully transparent details of touch and texture - there is
> something quintessentially Chopinesque in Zs playing - the bel canto,
> the rubato etc.
>
> In an effort to thin out my collection, I compared Zs Ballade #2 with
> Pollini's, and decided that Pollini had to go - comparitively clumsy
> phrasing.
>
> But, you're right - Zimerman is not a free-wheeling, heat-of-the-
> moment spontaneous player.

Zimerman is rather enigmatic. I would not say he has no imagination.
And he can let it rip in Szymanowski and modern music. Also in
Beethoven. Perhaps the fact that he has such a perfect mechanism,
where each note is given is proper weight regardless of speed (like
Art Tatum), makes it seem that he is on automatic pilot, but I doubt
that this is the case. If the imagination goes into preparing a
performance, that doesn't mean that there is no imagination.
Imagination is not the same as improvisation. Tatum played tunes
pretty much the same way every time. So did Charlie Parker, who
prepared his solos meticulously.

jpj
jpjones
2009-04-09 18:04:34 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes

Arri, I am curious if you would consider this peformance of Zimeman
with Bernstein to soundcalculated, unspontaneous, dull, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXyzpvxagwA

jpj
jpjones
2009-04-09 18:13:15 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes

On Apr 9, 2:04 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Arri, I am curious if you would consider this peformance of Zimeman
> with Bernstein to soundcalculated, unspontaneous, dull, etc.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXyzpvxagwA
>
> jpj

And this section I think could serve as the textbook on how to play
the piece:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjwAB7shTlc&feature=related

Taste may vary, but I think Zimerman's place in the very top rank of
current pianists is very secure. Cemented, in fact.

jpj
a***@att.net
2009-04-09 23:33:39 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 9, 2:13 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> On Apr 9, 2:04 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Arri, I am curious if you would consider this peformance of Zimeman
> > with Bernstein to soundcalculated, unspontaneous, dull, etc.
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXyzpvxagwA
>
> > jpj
>
> And this section I think could serve as the textbook on how to play
> the piece:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjwAB7shTlc&feature=related
>
> Taste may vary, but I think Zimerman's place in the very top rank of
> current pianists is very secure. Cemented, in fact.
>
> jpj

no doubt that he is a top pianist......... the clarity is really
outstanding.
AB
a***@att.net
2009-04-09 23:29:59 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 9, 2:04 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> Arri, I am curious if you would consider this peformance of Zimeman
> with Bernstein to soundcalculated, unspontaneous, dull, etc.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXyzpvxagwA
>
> jpj

so....... yes it IS a bit mechanical, not sure about being calculated.
certainly not spontaneous, but never theless VERY impressive. The
clarity, the accuracy and the timing is great. what is missing is a
sense of "sweep", or largeness of approach. Every note sounds like
the previous and there is a certain lack of tonal beauty. When ABM
was young he played this piece with more violence, power and "swep"
and was just more exciting..

AB
jpjones
2009-04-09 23:34:03 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes

On Apr 9, 7:29 pm, ***@att.net wrote:

> so....... yes it IS a bit mechanical, not sure about being calculated.
> certainly not spontaneous, but never theless VERY impressive. The
> clarity, the accuracy and the timing is great. what is missing is a
> sense of "sweep", or largeness of approach. Every note sounds like
> the previous and there is a certain lack of tonal beauty. When ABM
> was young he played this piece with more violence, power and "swep"
> and was just more exciting..
>

Well, OK, maybe he's not the guy to invite to a jazz jamming
session... Zimerman looks uptight, but his hands don't. This is
mastery of a very high order, though obviously not to all tastes.

jpj
JohnGavin
2009-04-09 18:46:16 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 9, 1:59 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> On Apr 9, 9:17 am, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I can understand this recording, or Zimerman in general not being to
> > everyone's liking.  For me his Ballades are carefully distilled, but I
> > would not say they are stiff or even fussy.  I find his playing
> > generally straightforward, even if the tempi are broader than usual.
> > The pleasure of this recording for me lies in savoring the beautiful
> > piano sonority without a hint of clunkyness or percussiveness
> > (something that mars so many modern piano recordings IMO) -
> > beautifully transparent details of touch and texture - there is
> > something quintessentially Chopinesque in Zs playing - the bel canto,
> > the rubato etc.
>
> > In an effort to thin out my collection, I compared Zs Ballade #2 with
> > Pollini's, and decided that Pollini had to go - comparitively clumsy
> > phrasing.
>
> > But, you're right - Zimerman is not a free-wheeling, heat-of-the-
> > moment spontaneous player.
>
> Zimerman is rather enigmatic. I would not say he has no imagination.
> And he can let it rip in Szymanowski and modern music. Also in
> Beethoven. Perhaps the fact that he has such a perfect mechanism,
> where each note is given is proper weight regardless of speed (like
> Art Tatum), makes it seem that he is on automatic pilot, but I doubt
> that this is the case. If the imagination goes into preparing a
> performance, that doesn't mean that there is no imagination.
> Imagination is not the same as improvisation. Tatum played tunes
> pretty much the same way every time. So did Charlie Parker, who
> prepared his solos meticulously.
>
> jpj- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well said!! I agree completely. The Zimerman recordings I currently
have are a joy to listen to (especially through the Sennheiser
headphones) - which allow one to hear those beautiful weightings and
textures close up. These records (Schubert Impromptus, Chopin
Ballades, Concerti) are among the most deeply satisfying.

I'm now about to acquire more Zimermans!
jpjones
2009-04-09 19:00:34 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes

On Apr 9, 2:46 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
Show quoted text -
>
> Well said!! I agree completely. The Zimerman recordings I currently
> have are a joy to listen to (especially through the Sennheiser
> headphones) - which allow one to hear those beautiful weightings and
> textures close up. These records (Schubert Impromptus, Chopin
> Ballades, Concerti) are among the most deeply satisfying.
>
> I'm now about to acquire more Zimermans!

Don't miss the Lutoslawski concerto, dedicated to Zimerman. It is a
great piece and a great performance of it.

jpj
jpjones
2009-04-09 19:23:18 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes

On Apr 9, 3:00 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2:46 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> Show quoted text -
>
>
>
> > Well said!! I agree completely. The Zimerman recordings I currently
> > have are a joy to listen to (especially through the Sennheiser
> > headphones) - which allow one to hear those beautiful weightings and
> > textures close up. These records (Schubert Impromptus, Chopin
> > Ballades, Concerti) are among the most deeply satisfying.
>
> > I'm now about to acquire more Zimermans!
>
> Don't miss the Lutoslawski concerto, dedicated to Zimerman. It is a
> great piece and a great performance of it.
>
> jpj

Actually, you can here the Lutoslawski concerto here before you buy:

This is Part 1 (other parts are there too):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJS2Y1cbu_Y&feature=related

jpj
Rugby
2009-04-10 11:50:05 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 9, 2:00 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Don't miss the Lutoslawski concerto, dedicated to Zimerman. It is a
> great piece and a great performance of it.

Agreed on both counts, one of the few Lutoslawskis I enjoy
repeatedly.

Rugby
x***@email.msn.com
2009-04-10 17:15:26 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 4:50 am, Rugby <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 9, 2:00 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Don't miss the Lutoslawski concerto, dedicated to Zimerman. It is a
> > great piece and a great performance of it.
>
> Agreed on both counts, one of the few Lutoslawskis I  enjoy
> repeatedly.
>
> Rugby

Zimerman played the Lutoslawski concerto with SFS not too long ago
this season. Even with our Scott Foglesong's great effort to build up
the appetite before hand in his column, I have to say that the whole
concert was rather unmemorable. There were quite a huge Zimerman
followers in the hall, applauding loudly, hoping to get an encore with
his Chopin or else, they got nothing in return. Personally, I think
he is now more or less a cult figure.Once the cult devotion got
involved, rationality may recede. Yes his play has its clarity, and
yet his tone can often sound rather harsh and brittle, and
occasionally, his play can be mannered too. And yes, I have most of
his recordings, many of them are wonderful, but, that doesn't change
my opinion or rather the observation on his play either.

Nick
tomdeacon
2009-04-10 17:32:49 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 1:15 pm, ***@email.msn.com wrote:
> On Apr 10, 4:50 am, Rugby <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 9, 2:00 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Don't miss the Lutoslawski concerto, dedicated to Zimerman. It is a
> > > great piece and a great performance of it.
>
> > Agreed on both counts, one of the few Lutoslawskis I  enjoy
> > repeatedly.
>
> > Rugby
>
> Zimerman played the Lutoslawski concerto with SFS not too long ago
> this season. Even with our Scott Foglesong's great effort to build up
> the appetite before hand in his column, I have to say that the whole
> concert was rather unmemorable. There were quite a huge Zimerman
> followers in the hall, applauding loudly, hoping to get an encore with
> his Chopin or else, they got nothing in return.  Personally, I think
> he is now more or less a cult figure.Once the cult devotion got
> involved, rationality may recede. Yes his play has its clarity, and
> yet his tone can often sound rather harsh and brittle, and
> occasionally, his play can be mannered too. And yes, I have most of
> his recordings, many of them are wonderful, but, that doesn't change
> my opinion or rather the observation on his play either.

Your English seems to fail you at some points, I would say.

But it is sufficient to understand that you think Zimmerman is the
object of a cult following, that those who like him are responding
"irrationally", that his playing is mannered (what, one might ask,
does that mean?), that his playing is clear, but harsh and brittle,
and that Lutoslawski's music, despite the enthusiasm of SF's music
critic, is not to your taste and quite unmemorable.

Does that sum it up?

Why, then, do you own most of his recordings, which seems perfectly
illogical, I think, particularly if you think Zimmerman is the object
of a cult?

Is it possible that you are perhaps at fault for not being able to
remember Lutoslawski's Piano concerto? Perhaps your dislike for his
music - or lack of knowledge of it - has affected your ability to
remember it?

It might also be that the "huge number of Zimmerman followers" in the
hall, but represent not a cult, but a very substantial part of the
music lovers in SF, placing you in a smaller group, a minority, itself
perhaps an anti-Zimmerman cult?

We have seen this kind of phenomenon here before with respect to the
singer Cheryl Studer, whose very name could well occasion a flood of
Studer posts in this newsgroup.

TD
jpjones
2009-04-10 17:42:41 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes

On Apr 10, 1:32 pm, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:

>
> It might also be that the "huge number of Zimmerman followers" in the
> hall, but represent not a cult, but a very substantial part of the
> music lovers in SF, placing you in a smaller group, a minority, itself
> perhaps an anti-Zimmerman cult?
>
> We have seen this kind of phenomenon here before with respect to the
> singer Cheryl Studer, whose very name could well occasion a flood of
> Studer posts in this newsgroup.
>

The Studer phenomenon is the result of one nut. The current discussion
of Zimerman is a normal discussion, some people like them, some not so
much. In my opinion, Zimerman is neither object of a cult nor of an
anti-cult. In fact, he has not been much discussed here. If you want
to see virulent stuff, you have to go back to Koren on Kempff, Arrau
and Solomon or to Tom Deacon on Josef Hofmann.

jpj
tomdeacon
2009-04-10 17:55:21 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 1:42 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> On Apr 10, 1:32 pm, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > It might also be that the "huge number of Zimmerman followers" in the
> > hall, but represent not a cult, but a very substantial part of the
> > music lovers in SF, placing you in a smaller group, a minority, itself
> > perhaps an anti-Zimmerman cult?
>
> > We have seen this kind of phenomenon here before with respect to the
> > singer Cheryl Studer, whose very name could well occasion a flood of
> > Studer posts in this newsgroup.
>
> The Studer phenomenon is the result of one nut. The current discussion
> of Zimerman is a normal discussion, some people like them, some not so
> much. In my opinion, Zimerman is neither object of a cult nor of an
> anti-cult. In fact, he has not been much discussed here.

But surely that is the point.

To describe Zimmerman enthusiasts in San Francisco as a "cult" is
bizarre in the extreme. Completely over the top.

TD
Matthew B. Tepper
2009-04-10 21:20:02 UTC
Permalink
jpjones <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:ff7b07a0-00dd-4f10-99e2-
***@3g2000yqk.googlegroups.com:

> The Studer phenomenon is the result of one nut. The current discussion
> of Zimerman is a normal discussion, some people like them, some not so
> much. In my opinion, Zimerman is neither object of a cult nor of an
> anti-cult. In fact, he has not been much discussed here. If you want
> to see virulent stuff, you have to go back to Koren on Kempff, Arrau
> and Solomon or to Tom Deacon on Josef Hofmann.

And discussions of Lugansky were chiefly the result of his one nut, somebody
called "Valour."

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
tomdeacon
2009-04-10 22:02:13 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 5:20 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> jpjones <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:ff7b07a0-00dd-4f10-99e2-
> ***@3g2000yqk.googlegroups.com:
>
> > The Studer phenomenon is the result of one nut. The current discussion
> > of Zimerman is a normal discussion, some people like them, some not so
> > much. In my opinion, Zimerman is neither object of a cult nor of an
> > anti-cult. In fact, he has not been much discussed here. If you want
> > to see virulent stuff, you have to go back to Koren on Kempff, Arrau
> > and Solomon or to Tom Deacon on Josef Hofmann.
>
> And discussions of Lugansky were chiefly the result of his one nut, somebody
> called "Valour."

Valour21, if my memory serves me correctly.

She - it is certainly not a he, but it may be an "it" - paraded
Lugansky's every move, his every gesture, his every appearance before
the Yahoo Great Pianist's Group to the point that she/it turned the
entire group against this poor benighted fellow, whose only sin is an
incipient blandness of countenance and pianism.

TD
Rugby
2009-04-10 22:39:51 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 5:02 pm, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:

> Valour21, if my memory serves me correctly.
>
> She - it is certainly not a he, but it may be an "it" - paraded
> Lugansky's every move, his every gesture, his every appearance before
> the Yahoo Great Pianist's Group to the point that she/it turned the
> entire group against this poor benighted fellow, whose only sin is an
> incipient blandness of countenance and pianism.

Indeed, "it" did some damage to Nikolai, who subsequent performances
and recordings reveal usually now overcomes any tendancy to "
blandness" and is a pianist I now follow. His appearances at 2008
Verbier were quite well done,and I think he has become a Proms
regular. While one can commiserate with young American pianists of the
50's - 60's having the figures of Horowitz and Rubinstein towering
over them, think of young Russians with
Richter,Gilels,Sofronitsky,Sokolov.

Regards, Rugby
number_six
2009-04-11 01:24:05 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 1:20 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> jpjones <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:ff7b07a0-00dd-4f10-99e2-
> ***@3g2000yqk.googlegroups.com:
>
> > The Studer phenomenon is the result of one nut. The current discussion
> > of Zimerman is a normal discussion, some people like them, some not so
> > much. In my opinion, Zimerman is neither object of a cult nor of an
> > anti-cult. In fact, he has not been much discussed here. If you want
> > to see virulent stuff, you have to go back to Koren on Kempff, Arrau
> > and Solomon or to Tom Deacon on Josef Hofmann.
>
> And discussions of Lugansky were chiefly the result of his one nut, somebody
> called "Valour."
>
> --
> Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
> My personal home page --http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
> My main music page ---http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
> To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
> Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

A "Lug nut"??
Matthew B. Tepper
2009-04-11 02:38:39 UTC
Permalink
number_six <***@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:e1578a55-0108-44d3-8616-
***@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com:

> On Apr 10, 1:20 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> jpjones <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
>> letters to be typed in news:ff7b07a0-00dd-4f10-99e2-
>> ***@3g2000yqk.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > The Studer phenomenon is the result of one nut. The current discussion
>> > of Zimerman is a normal discussion, some people like them, some not so
>> > much. In my opinion, Zimerman is neither object of a cult nor of an
>> > anti-cult. In fact, he has not been much discussed here. If you want
>> > to see virulent stuff, you have to go back to Koren on Kempff, Arrau
>> > and Solomon or to Tom Deacon on Josef Hofmann.
>>
>> And discussions of Lugansky were chiefly the result of his one nut,
>> somebody called "Valour."
>>
>
> A "Lug nut"??

Whatever, it was enough to make people bolt. I could even imagine that I saw
Allen wrench himself away from the discussion.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
number_six
2009-04-11 23:40:18 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 6:38 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> number_six <***@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:e1578a55-0108-44d3-8616-
> ***@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 10, 1:20 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> jpjones <***@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
> >> letters to be typed in news:ff7b07a0-00dd-4f10-99e2-
> >> ***@3g2000yqk.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> > The Studer phenomenon is the result of one nut. The current discussion
> >> > of Zimerman is a normal discussion, some people like them, some not so
> >> > much. In my opinion, Zimerman is neither object of a cult nor of an
> >> > anti-cult. In fact, he has not been much discussed here. If you want
> >> > to see virulent stuff, you have to go back to Koren on Kempff, Arrau
> >> > and Solomon or to Tom Deacon on Josef Hofmann.
>
> >> And discussions of Lugansky were chiefly the result of his one nut,
> >> somebody called "Valour."
>
> > A "Lug nut"??
>
> Whatever, it was enough to make people bolt.  I could even imagine that I saw
> Allen wrench himself away from the discussion.
>
> --
> Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
> My personal home page --http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
> My main music page ---http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
> To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
> Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

As the kids like to say these days, "what a tool."
x***@email.msn.com
2009-04-10 19:02:55 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 10:32 am, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:
> On Apr 10, 1:15 pm, ***@email.msn.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 10, 4:50 am, Rugby <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 9, 2:00 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Don't miss the Lutoslawski concerto, dedicated to Zimerman. It is a
> > > > great piece and a great performance of it.
>
> > > Agreed on both counts, one of the few Lutoslawskis I  enjoy
> > > repeatedly.
>
> > > Rugby
>
> > Zimerman played the Lutoslawski concerto with SFS not too long ago
> > this season. Even with our Scott Foglesong's great effort to build up
> > the appetite before hand in his column, I have to say that the whole
> > concert was rather unmemorable. There were quite a huge Zimerman
> > followers in the hall, applauding loudly, hoping to get an encore with
> > his Chopin or else, they got nothing in return.  Personally, I think
> > he is now more or less a cult figure.Once the cult devotion got
> > involved, rationality may recede. Yes his play has its clarity, and
> > yet his tone can often sound rather harsh and brittle, and
> > occasionally, his play can be mannered too. And yes, I have most of
> > his recordings, many of them are wonderful, but, that doesn't change
> > my opinion or rather the observation on his play either.
>
> Your English seems to fail you at some points, I would say.
>
> But it is sufficient to understand that you think Zimmerman is the
> object of a cult following, that those who like him are responding
> "irrationally", that his playing is mannered (what, one might ask,
> does that mean?), that his playing is clear, but harsh and brittle,
> and that Lutoslawski's music, despite the enthusiasm of SF's music
> critic, is not to your taste and quite unmemorable.
>
> Does that sum it up?
>
> Why, then, do you own most of his recordings, which seems perfectly
> illogical, I think, particularly if you think Zimmerman is the object
> of a cult?
>
> Is it possible that you are perhaps at fault for not being able to
> remember Lutoslawski's Piano concerto? Perhaps your dislike for his
> music - or lack of knowledge of it - has affected your ability to
> remember it?
>
> It might also be that the "huge number of Zimmerman followers" in the
> hall, but represent not a cult, but a very substantial part of the
> music lovers in SF, placing you in a smaller group, a minority, itself
> perhaps an anti-Zimmerman cult?
>
> We have seen this kind of phenomenon here before with respect to the
> singer Cheryl Studer, whose very name could well occasion a flood of
> Studer posts in this newsgroup.
>
> TD

TD, I am not the only one, nor the first one, who associated the word
"cult" with K. Zimmerman. Jessica Duchen actually did it in a rather
positive manner in one of her interviews which you might be able to
locate from her blog site.

How do I define a member of the "cult of X"? Well, to them anything X
did is impeccably marvelous, any contrary opinion got to be wrong. And
they would jump in any time any where in X's defense once a criticism
over X ever came into scene. So, are you or were you a cult member of
any named artists now or before? And we all know the H word, or don't
we? :-)
tomdeacon
2009-04-10 21:59:33 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 3:02 pm, ***@email.msn.com wrote:
> On Apr 10, 10:32 am, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 10, 1:15 pm, ***@email.msn.com wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 10, 4:50 am, Rugby <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 9, 2:00 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Don't miss the Lutoslawski concerto, dedicated to Zimerman. It is a
> > > > > great piece and a great performance of it.
>
> > > > Agreed on both counts, one of the few Lutoslawskis I  enjoy
> > > > repeatedly.
>
> > > > Rugby
>
> > > Zimerman played the Lutoslawski concerto with SFS not too long ago
> > > this season. Even with our Scott Foglesong's great effort to build up
> > > the appetite before hand in his column, I have to say that the whole
> > > concert was rather unmemorable. There were quite a huge Zimerman
> > > followers in the hall, applauding loudly, hoping to get an encore with
> > > his Chopin or else, they got nothing in return.  Personally, I think
> > > he is now more or less a cult figure.Once the cult devotion got
> > > involved, rationality may recede. Yes his play has its clarity, and
> > > yet his tone can often sound rather harsh and brittle, and
> > > occasionally, his play can be mannered too. And yes, I have most of
> > > his recordings, many of them are wonderful, but, that doesn't change
> > > my opinion or rather the observation on his play either.
>
> > Your English seems to fail you at some points, I would say.
>
> > But it is sufficient to understand that you think Zimmerman is the
> > object of a cult following, that those who like him are responding
> > "irrationally", that his playing is mannered (what, one might ask,
> > does that mean?), that his playing is clear, but harsh and brittle,
> > and that Lutoslawski's music, despite the enthusiasm of SF's music
> > critic, is not to your taste and quite unmemorable.
>
> > Does that sum it up?
>
> > Why, then, do you own most of his recordings, which seems perfectly
> > illogical, I think, particularly if you think Zimmerman is the object
> > of a cult?
>
> > Is it possible that you are perhaps at fault for not being able to
> > remember Lutoslawski's Piano concerto? Perhaps your dislike for his
> > music - or lack of knowledge of it - has affected your ability to
> > remember it?
>
> > It might also be that the "huge number of Zimmerman followers" in the
> > hall, but represent not a cult, but a very substantial part of the
> > music lovers in SF, placing you in a smaller group, a minority, itself
> > perhaps an anti-Zimmerman cult?
>
> > We have seen this kind of phenomenon here before with respect to the
> > singer Cheryl Studer, whose very name could well occasion a flood of
> > Studer posts in this newsgroup.
>
> > TD
>
> TD, I am not the only one, nor the first one, who associated the word
> "cult" with K. Zimmerman.  Jessica Duchen actually did it in a rather
> positive manner in one of her interviews which you might be able to
> locate from her blog site.
>
> How do I define a member of the "cult of X"? Well, to them anything X
> did is impeccably marvelous, any contrary opinion got to be wrong. And
> they would jump in any time any where in X's defense once a criticism
> over X ever came into scene.  So, are you or were you a cult member of
> any named artists now or before? And we all know the H word, or don't
> we?

We all know the H word. That you would raise the name of Joyce Hatto
in connection with Krystian Zimmerman is really ludicrous. Please try
to control yourself and stick to the topic at hand.

But the word cult is an odd choice, whether employed by Jessica Duchen
or by a mere poster in this forum.

Nobody, to my knowledge, limited of course, worships at the feet of
Mr. Zimmerman.

Perhaps you may be referring to his "fans". I, frankly, do not
consider myself a "fan", nor a member of his "cult", as you put it,
but I do admire Zimmerman's pianism. As, I feel completely sure, does
Ms. Duchen.

My problem with your attitude here is its contradictions. On the one
hand you retain ownership of many recordings by the object of this
"cult", on the other hand you find his pianism brittle and
unattractive.

Please, explain the contradictions.

TD
a***@att.net
2009-04-12 00:02:51 UTC
Permalink
> It might also be that the "huge number of Zimmerman followers" in the
> hall, but represent not a cult, but a very substantial part of the
> music lovers in SF, placing you in a smaller group, a minority, itself
> perhaps an anti-Zimmerman cult?

I proudly belong to the anti-Zimmerman "cult"...... and I and the rest
of us have good reason to feel the way we do. We are not dismissing
Z. as a 2nd rate pianist...... we are pointing out his musical (not
technical) limitations which some of you refuse to acknowledge could
possibly exist.

AB



>
> TD- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
JohnGavin
2009-04-10 23:07:29 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 1:15 pm, ***@email.msn.com wrote:
> On Apr 10, 4:50 am, Rugby <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 9, 2:00 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Don't miss the Lutoslawski concerto, dedicated to Zimerman. It is a
> > > great piece and a great performance of it.
>
> > Agreed on both counts, one of the few Lutoslawskis I  enjoy
> > repeatedly.
>
> > Rugby
>
> Zimerman played the Lutoslawski concerto with SFS not too long ago
> this season. Even with our Scott Foglesong's great effort to build up
> the appetite before hand in his column, I have to say that the whole
> concert was rather unmemorable. There were quite a huge Zimerman
> followers in the hall, applauding loudly, hoping to get an encore with
> his Chopin or else, they got nothing in return.  Personally, I think
> he is now more or less a cult figure.Once the cult devotion got
> involved, rationality may recede. Yes his play has its clarity, and
> yet his tone can often sound rather harsh and brittle, and
> occasionally, his play can be mannered too. And yes, I have most of
> his recordings, many of them are wonderful, but, that doesn't change
> my opinion or rather the observation on his play either.
>
> Nick

The question is --- Is a cult a following of one-dimensional
devotees, intolerant of dissenting points of view, or is a cult a
significant number of intensely admiring fans. If Zimerman has the
second, then there must be a reason for it.

I'm an admirer, yet as I said before, I'm not sure if KZ is one of the
really great pianists. I would guess that his ardent admirers are
moved by the sheer QUALITY he presents. It's not easy to maintain
pianos and service them well beyond factory specs, and to travel and
record with them - never quite knowing how much work they will need
after getting banged around in transit. Carrying them around the
world eats into touring profits. So kudos to Zimerman for his
devotion to sheer instrumental/pianistic excellence. Perhaps that is
partly where all the appreciation comes from.

I think in today's world people miss sheer quality. Let's face it,
quality has become too expensive - the extended orchestral rehearsal
time that a Fritz Reiner often demanded. Too many performances /
recordings these days sound routine - a bit like factory belt
products. How many Zimermans or Michelangeli's are there who insist
on superb instrumental quality, even if it means limiting their
engagements and repertoire?

These musicians live according to their inner ideals, even at the
expense of comfort, profits and popularity.
a***@att.net
2009-04-11 23:46:56 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 1:15 pm, ***@email.msn.com wrote:
> On Apr 10, 4:50 am, Rugby <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 9, 2:00 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Don't miss the Lutoslawski concerto, dedicated to Zimerman. It is a
> > > great piece and a great performance of it.
>
> > Agreed on both counts, one of the few Lutoslawskis I  enjoy
> > repeatedly.
>
> > Rugby
>
> Zimerman played the Lutoslawski concerto with SFS not too long ago
> this season. Even with our Scott Foglesong's great effort to build up
> the appetite before hand in his column, I have to say that the whole
> concert was rather unmemorable. There were quite a huge Zimerman
> followers in the hall, applauding loudly, hoping to get an encore with
> his Chopin or else, they got nothing in return.  Personally, I think
> he is now more or less a cult figure.Once the cult devotion got
> involved, rationality may recede. Yes his play has its clarity, and
> yet his tone can often sound rather harsh and brittle, and
> occasionally, his play can be mannered too. And yes, I have most of
> his recordings, many of them are wonderful, but, that doesn't change
> my opinion or rather the observation on his play either.
>
> Nick

well said...... and I notice nobody replied to these well reasoned
comments. I also heard Z. in concert and in general was not that
happy... he did play a Szmanowski (sp) sonata extremely wll but that
was it. The rest of the recital lacked excitement.

AB
Steve Emerson
2009-04-09 19:46:20 UTC
Permalink
In article
<11525f0e-b66c-4a65-8b48-***@r28g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:

> Well said!! I agree completely. The Zimerman recordings I currently
> have are a joy to listen to (especially through the Sennheiser
> headphones)

Aha, there's the culprit....

> - which allow one to hear those beautiful weightings and
> textures close up.

For that I'd still rather hear Moravec, but you're certainly causing me
to revisit Z.

> These records (Schubert Impromptus, Chopin
> Ballades, Concerti) are among the most deeply satisfying.
>
> I'm now about to acquire more Zimermans!

SE.
Steve Emerson
2009-04-10 00:49:10 UTC
Permalink
In article
<1fca589c-0f8d-4347-b154-***@v6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Apr 8, 3:54 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <d324fc49-15ca-482a-bb30-***@w9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >  JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan.  The recordings of his that I have
> > > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > > toughfulness.
> >
> > > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > > refinement and mastery.
> >
> > I was very put off by his Ballades. Conceptually I didn't mind them, but
> > the playing felt stiff, careful, cramped, and that made the
> > interpretations themselves appear fussy. "Feeling of spontaneity" would
> > be the last term one would use.
> >
> I can understand this recording, or Zimerman in general not being to
> everyone's liking. For me his Ballades are carefully distilled, but I
> would not say they are stiff or even fussy. I find his playing
> generally straightforward, even if the tempi are broader than usual.
> The pleasure of this recording for me lies in savoring the beautiful
> piano sonority without a hint of clunkyness or percussiveness
> (something that mars so many modern piano recordings IMO) -
> beautifully transparent details of touch and texture - there is
> something quintessentially Chopinesque in Zs playing - the bel canto,
> the rubato etc.

I wouldn't compare his rubato to the uncanny magic you get from the ones
loosed by Sofronitsky, Cortot, and Rosenthal in Chopin playing. Z's is a
whole different kind, and much more straightforward.

> In an effort to thin out my collection, I compared Zs Ballade #2 with
> Pollini's, and decided that Pollini had to go - comparatively clumsy
> phrasing.

(In my book, neither of these guys is the last word in Ballades....)

> But, you're right - Zimerman is not a free-wheeling, heat-of-the-
> moment spontaneous player.

Sure, there's that -- but then neither was ABM, and as as noted I never
once was put off in an ABM recording the way I am by the Z Ballades
(just did some listening via Youtube to studio video sessions as well;
or are those the same).

ABM, as Arri rightly points out in a recent post, was not lacking in
drama. And to me, at least, he never *came across* as overly fastidious
and held-in-check, the way Z does in the Ballades.

In any case, no reason a given pianist has to be to all tastes.

SE.
jpjones
2009-04-10 01:00:16 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive:yes

On Apr 9, 8:49 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article
> <1fca589c-0f8d-4347-b154-***@v6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> > On Apr 8, 3:54 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <d324fc49-15ca-482a-bb30-***@w9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan. The recordings of his that I have
> > > > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > > > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > > > toughfulness.
>
> > > > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > > > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > > > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > > > refinement and mastery.
>
> > > I was very put off by his Ballades. Conceptually I didn't mind them, but
> > > the playing felt stiff, careful, cramped, and that made the
> > > interpretations themselves appear fussy. "Feeling of spontaneity" would
> > > be the last term one would use.
>
> > I can understand this recording, or Zimerman in general not being to
> > everyone's liking. For me his Ballades are carefully distilled, but I
> > would not say they are stiff or even fussy. I find his playing
> > generally straightforward, even if the tempi are broader than usual.
> > The pleasure of this recording for me lies in savoring the beautiful
> > piano sonority without a hint of clunkyness or percussiveness
> > (something that mars so many modern piano recordings IMO) -
> > beautifully transparent details of touch and texture - there is
> > something quintessentially Chopinesque in Zs playing - the bel canto,
> > the rubato etc.
>
> I wouldn't compare his rubato to the uncanny magic you get from the ones
> loosed by Sofronitsky, Cortot, and Rosenthal in Chopin playing. Z's is a
> whole different kind, and much more straightforward.
>
> > In an effort to thin out my collection, I compared Zs Ballade #2 with
> > Pollini's, and decided that Pollini had to go - comparatively clumsy
> > phrasing.
>
> (In my book, neither of these guys is the last word in Ballades....)
>
> > But, you're right - Zimerman is not a free-wheeling, heat-of-the-
> > moment spontaneous player.
>
> Sure, there's that -- but then neither was ABM, and as as noted I never
> once was put off in an ABM recording the way I am by the Z Ballades
> (just did some listening via Youtube to studio video sessions as well;
> or are those the same).
>
> ABM, as Arri rightly points out in a recent post, was not lacking in
> drama. And to me, at least, he never *came across* as overly fastidious
> and held-in-check, the way Z does in the Ballades.

Zimerman is somewhat enigmatic. He should be paired with Fauré's piano
music, to see if one enigmatic guy can unlock the other... What
happens to me with Zimerman, whom I admire, is that when I try to
recall his performances, how he does a particular piece, I come up
with a blank. This happens to me with certain writers. Somehow he
resists analysis and does not give the game away. Moravec is a bit
like that, not to the same degree.

jpj
Steve Emerson
2009-04-10 03:15:38 UTC
Permalink
In article
<f6e9ee07-3a53-4fab-b8a5-***@z1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> X-No-Archive:yes
>
> On Apr 9, 8:49 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <1fca589c-0f8d-4347-b154-***@v6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >
> >
> > JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > On Apr 8, 3:54 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <d324fc49-15ca-482a-bb30-***@w9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > > > JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan. The recordings of his that I have
> > > > > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > > > > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > > > > toughfulness.
> >
> > > > > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > > > > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > > > > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > > > > refinement and mastery.
> >
> > > > I was very put off by his Ballades. Conceptually I didn't mind them, but
> > > > the playing felt stiff, careful, cramped, and that made the
> > > > interpretations themselves appear fussy. "Feeling of spontaneity" would
> > > > be the last term one would use.
> >
> > > I can understand this recording, or Zimerman in general not being to
> > > everyone's liking. For me his Ballades are carefully distilled, but I
> > > would not say they are stiff or even fussy. I find his playing
> > > generally straightforward, even if the tempi are broader than usual.
> > > The pleasure of this recording for me lies in savoring the beautiful
> > > piano sonority without a hint of clunkyness or percussiveness
> > > (something that mars so many modern piano recordings IMO) -
> > > beautifully transparent details of touch and texture - there is
> > > something quintessentially Chopinesque in Zs playing - the bel canto,
> > > the rubato etc.
> >
> > I wouldn't compare his rubato to the uncanny magic you get from the ones
> > loosed by Sofronitsky, Cortot, and Rosenthal in Chopin playing. Z's is a
> > whole different kind, and much more straightforward.
> >
> > > In an effort to thin out my collection, I compared Zs Ballade #2 with
> > > Pollini's, and decided that Pollini had to go - comparatively clumsy
> > > phrasing.
> >
> > (In my book, neither of these guys is the last word in Ballades....)
> >
> > > But, you're right - Zimerman is not a free-wheeling, heat-of-the-
> > > moment spontaneous player.
> >
> > Sure, there's that -- but then neither was ABM, and as noted I never
> > once was put off in an ABM recording the way I am by the Z Ballades
> > (just did some listening via Youtube to studio video sessions as well;
> > or are those the same).
> >
> > ABM, as Arri rightly points out in a recent post, was not lacking in
> > drama. And to me, at least, he never *came across* as overly fastidious
> > and held-in-check, the way Z does in the Ballades.
>
> Zimerman is somewhat enigmatic. He should be paired with Fauré's piano
> music, to see if one enigmatic guy can unlock the other... What
> happens to me with Zimerman, whom I admire, is that when I try to
> recall his performances, how he does a particular piece, I come up
> with a blank.

This makes sense.

> This happens to me with certain writers. Somehow he
> resists analysis and does not give the game away. Moravec is a bit
> like that, not to the same degree.

There are moments in Moravec's nocturnes and his preludes that are
unforgettable for me. He also has an unforgettable sound.

Here's a Zimerman performance that might well prove to be memorable -- I
was very taken with it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmKlYaygCek

His rubato in these old mazurka tapes is more interesting to me than in
the DG Chopin. Another one here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNWJt4orpZc

In both, he's more "natural seeming" and certainly seems freer.

The guy is, what, early 50s at the most? He may change again.

SE.
jpjones
2009-04-10 03:24:36 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive:yes

On Apr 9, 11:15 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net>
wrote:
> In article
> <f6e9ee07-3a53-4fab-b8a5-***@z1g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
>
> > On Apr 9, 8:49 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <1fca589c-0f8d-4347-b154-***@v6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > On Apr 8, 3:54 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <d324fc49-15ca-482a-bb30-***@w9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > > > JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan. The recordings of his that I have
> > > > > > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > > > > > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > > > > > toughfulness.
>
> > > > > > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > > > > > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > > > > > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > > > > > refinement and mastery.
>
> > > > > I was very put off by his Ballades. Conceptually I didn't mind them, but
> > > > > the playing felt stiff, careful, cramped, and that made the
> > > > > interpretations themselves appear fussy. "Feeling of spontaneity" would
> > > > > be the last term one would use.
>
> > > > I can understand this recording, or Zimerman in general not being to
> > > > everyone's liking. For me his Ballades are carefully distilled, but I
> > > > would not say they are stiff or even fussy. I find his playing
> > > > generally straightforward, even if the tempi are broader than usual.
> > > > The pleasure of this recording for me lies in savoring the beautiful
> > > > piano sonority without a hint of clunkyness or percussiveness
> > > > (something that mars so many modern piano recordings IMO) -
> > > > beautifully transparent details of touch and texture - there is
> > > > something quintessentially Chopinesque in Zs playing - the bel canto,
> > > > the rubato etc.
>
> > > I wouldn't compare his rubato to the uncanny magic you get from the ones
> > > loosed by Sofronitsky, Cortot, and Rosenthal in Chopin playing. Z's is a
> > > whole different kind, and much more straightforward.
>
> > > > In an effort to thin out my collection, I compared Zs Ballade #2 with
> > > > Pollini's, and decided that Pollini had to go - comparatively clumsy
> > > > phrasing.
>
> > > (In my book, neither of these guys is the last word in Ballades....)
>
> > > > But, you're right - Zimerman is not a free-wheeling, heat-of-the-
> > > > moment spontaneous player.
>
> > > Sure, there's that -- but then neither was ABM, and as noted I never
> > > once was put off in an ABM recording the way I am by the Z Ballades
> > > (just did some listening via Youtube to studio video sessions as well;
> > > or are those the same).
>
> > > ABM, as Arri rightly points out in a recent post, was not lacking in
> > > drama. And to me, at least, he never *came across* as overly fastidious
> > > and held-in-check, the way Z does in the Ballades.
>
> > Zimerman is somewhat enigmatic. He should be paired with Fauré's piano
> > music, to see if one enigmatic guy can unlock the other... What
> > happens to me with Zimerman, whom I admire, is that when I try to
> > recall his performances, how he does a particular piece, I come up
> > with a blank.
>
> This makes sense.
>
> > This happens to me with certain writers. Somehow he
> > resists analysis and does not give the game away. Moravec is a bit
> > like that, not to the same degree.
>
> There are moments in Moravec's nocturnes and his preludes that are
> unforgettable for me. He also has an unforgettable sound.
>
> Here's a Zimerman performance that might well prove to be memorable -- I
> was very taken with it:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmKlYaygCek
>
> His rubato in these old mazurka tapes is more interesting to me than in
> the DG Chopin. Another one here:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNWJt4orpZc
>
> In both, he's more "natural seeming" and certainly seems freer.
>
> The guy is, what, early 50s at the most? He may change again.
>
> SE.

Thanks. Those old recordings are interesting, if not so burnished in
sound.

Early fifties, yes. I think one thing that has happened since his
young days is that he has become very obsessive about pianos and
sound. He doesn't let anybody touch them, he spends a lot of time
making them sound the way he wants, even for a particular composer. He
is apparently a very highly skilled technician. I heard an interview
where this question of pianos and sound and tuning was most of what he
talked about, as well as recorded sound... He may be trying to reach
for an idealized sound he hears in his head. In any case, a different
path from many famous pianists.

jpj
td
2009-04-10 11:06:25 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 9, 9:00 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> X-No-Archive:yes
>
> On Apr 9, 8:49 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <1fca589c-0f8d-4347-b154-***@v6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >  JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > On Apr 8, 3:54 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <d324fc49-15ca-482a-bb30-***@w9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > >  JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan.  The recordings of his that I have
> > > > > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > > > > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > > > > toughfulness.
>
> > > > > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > > > > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > > > > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > > > > refinement and mastery.
>
> > > > I was very put off by his Ballades. Conceptually I didn't mind them, but
> > > > the playing felt stiff, careful, cramped, and that made the
> > > > interpretations themselves appear fussy. "Feeling of spontaneity" would
> > > > be the last term one would use.
>
> > > I can understand this recording, or Zimerman in general not being to
> > > everyone's liking.  For me his Ballades are carefully distilled, but I
> > > would not say they are stiff or even fussy.  I find his playing
> > > generally straightforward, even if the tempi are broader than usual.
> > > The pleasure of this recording for me lies in savoring the beautiful
> > > piano sonority without a hint of clunkyness or percussiveness
> > > (something that mars so many modern piano recordings IMO) -
> > > beautifully transparent details of touch and texture - there is
> > > something quintessentially Chopinesque in Zs playing - the bel canto,
> > > the rubato etc.
>
> > I wouldn't compare his rubato to the uncanny magic you get from the ones
> > loosed by Sofronitsky, Cortot, and Rosenthal in Chopin playing. Z's is a
> > whole different kind, and much more straightforward.
>
> > > In an effort to thin out my collection, I compared Zs Ballade #2 with
> > > Pollini's, and decided that Pollini had to go - comparatively clumsy
> > > phrasing.
>
> > (In my book, neither of these guys is the last word in Ballades....)
>
> > > But, you're right - Zimerman is not a free-wheeling, heat-of-the-
> > > moment spontaneous player.
>
> > Sure, there's that -- but then neither was ABM, and as as noted I never
> > once was put off in an ABM recording the way I am by the Z Ballades
> > (just did some listening via Youtube to studio video sessions as well;
> > or are those the same).
>
> > ABM, as Arri rightly points out in a recent post, was not lacking in
> > drama. And to me, at least, he never *came across* as overly fastidious
> > and held-in-check, the way Z does in the Ballades.
>
> Zimerman is somewhat enigmatic. He should be paired with Fauré's piano
> music, to see if one enigmatic guy can unlock the other... What
> happens to me with Zimerman, whom I admire, is that when I try to
> recall his performances, how he does a particular piece, I come up
> with a blank.

That's because you are brainless, cumrag.

TD
JohnGavin
2009-04-10 01:42:06 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 9, 8:49 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article
> Sure, there's that -- but then neither was ABM, and as as noted I never
> once was put off in an ABM recording the way I am by the Z Ballades
> (just did some listening via Youtube to studio video sessions as well;
> or are those the same).
>
I'm sure that Zimerman is not quite in Michelangeli's class. Z might
be a pianist who provides a great deal of pleasure and satisfaction in
the now, but isn't extremely memorable. That's not meant to be as
severe a critique as it sounds.


> ABM, as Arri rightly points out in a recent post, was not lacking in
> drama. And to me, at least, he never *came across* as overly fastidious
> and held-in-check, the way Z does in the Ballades.

Yep, I get the fastidious vibe too (just watched the DVD of Beethoven
PC#3 with Bernstein). For me though, the fastidiousness doesn't spill
over into being fussy or overly prettified.

After all the Zimerman recordings come I could well decide that he's a
luxuriously fantastic pianist but not a great one. I'm not quite sure
yet.
Norman M. Schwartz
2009-04-10 13:42:25 UTC
Permalink
I find that Zimerman does odd stuff in this Chopin concerto. Slows down at
points, then suddenly plays much more softly and then in contrast maybe too
loud. I even prefer the 12 year old Kissin who puts both concerti and 3 more
Chopin pieces on a single disc, whereas Z requires 2 discs just for the
concerti. (Playing time on a disc are of no concern to me.) Somehow I feel
he both conducts and plays because he couldn't find a conductor willing to
support his interpretations.
JohnGavin
2009-04-10 14:24:37 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 9:42 am, "Norman M. Schwartz" <***@optonline.net> wrote:
> I find that Zimerman does odd stuff in this Chopin concerto. Slows down at
> points, then suddenly plays much more softly and then in contrast maybe too
> loud. I even prefer the 12 year old Kissin who puts both concerti and 3 more
> Chopin pieces on a single disc, whereas Z requires 2 discs just for the
> concerti. (Playing time on a disc are of no concern to me.) Somehow I feel
> he both conducts and plays because he couldn't find a conductor willing to
> support his interpretations.

More likely he couldn't find a conductor willing to invest the time
and sheer labor of manifesting his vision for these pieces. How many
significant conductors that you know of have been enthusiastic about
conducting the Chopin PCs?
td
2009-04-10 14:31:29 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 10:24 am, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Apr 10, 9:42 am, "Norman M. Schwartz" <***@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > I find that Zimerman does odd stuff in this Chopin concerto. Slows down at
> > points, then suddenly plays much more softly and then in contrast maybe too
> > loud. I even prefer the 12 year old Kissin who puts both concerti and 3 more
> > Chopin pieces on a single disc, whereas Z requires 2 discs just for the
> > concerti. (Playing time on a disc are of no concern to me.) Somehow I feel
> > he both conducts and plays because he couldn't find a conductor willing to
> > support his interpretations.
>
> More likely he couldn't find a conductor willing to invest the time
> and sheer labor of manifesting his vision for these pieces.  How many
> significant conductors that you know of have been enthusiastic about
> conducting the Chopin PCs?

Great minds think alike, John.

TD
Gerard
2009-04-10 14:32:26 UTC
Permalink
JohnGavin wrote:
> On Apr 10, 9:42 am, "Norman M. Schwartz" <***@optonline.net> wrote:
> > I find that Zimerman does odd stuff in this Chopin concerto. Slows
> > down at points, then suddenly plays much more softly and then in
> > contrast maybe too loud. I even prefer the 12 year old Kissin who
> > puts both concerti and 3 more Chopin pieces on a single disc,
> > whereas Z requires 2 discs just for the concerti. (Playing time on
> > a disc are of no concern to me.) Somehow I feel he both conducts
> > and plays because he couldn't find a conductor willing to support
> > his interpretations.
>
> More likely he couldn't find a conductor willing to invest the time
> and sheer labor of manifesting his vision for these pieces. How many
> significant conductors that you know of have been enthusiastic about
> conducting the Chopin PCs?

The booklet says it all.
It was his dream since about 20 years to conduct these pieces from the keyboard.
And "I wanted to find 50 musicians who shared my passion for this music and
would be willing to rehearse as intensely as necessary, without looking at the
clock."
td
2009-04-10 14:31:00 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 9:42 am, "Norman M. Schwartz" <***@optonline.net> wrote:
> I find that Zimerman does odd stuff in this Chopin concerto. Slows down at
> points, then suddenly plays much more softly and then in contrast maybe too
> loud. I even prefer the 12 year old Kissin who puts both concerti and 3 more
> Chopin pieces on a single disc, whereas Z requires 2 discs just for the
> concerti. (Playing time on a disc are of no concern to me.) Somehow I feel
> he both conducts and plays because he couldn't find a conductor willing to
> support his interpretations.

No.

Unable to follow his rubato sufficiently well.

Conductors really have no high regard for Chopin's orchestrations.
Zimmerman showed them just how good they are.

TD
Norman M. Schwartz
2009-04-10 15:25:49 UTC
Permalink
td wrote:
> On Apr 10, 9:42 am, "Norman M. Schwartz" <***@optonline.net> wrote:
>> I find that Zimerman does odd stuff in this Chopin concerto. Slows
>> down at points, then suddenly plays much more softly and then in
>> contrast maybe too loud. I even prefer the 12 year old Kissin who
>> puts both concerti and 3 more Chopin pieces on a single disc,
>> whereas Z requires 2 discs just for the concerti. (Playing time on a
>> disc are of no concern to me.) Somehow I feel he both conducts and
>> plays because he couldn't find a conductor willing to support his
>> interpretations.
>
> No.
>
> Unable to follow his rubato sufficiently well.
>
> Conductors really have no high regard for Chopin's orchestrations.
> Zimmerman showed them just how good they are.
>
So then does it follow that Ormandy with Van Cliburn, Previn with Licad,
Wallenstein with Rubinstein, Skrowaczewski with Rubinstein, Mackerras with
Ax ##1 & 2 (just a few of those I laid my hands to compare with Zimerman
with Zimerman, have no regard for the orchestrations? I'm not a musician,
can't read scores so the only thing I can relate to are other recordings.
Doing that renders Zimerman just unbearble in these works; he appears to be
making big heroic pieces of these concerti and I'm not led to the conclusion
that they should fall into this category.


> TD
JohnGavin
2009-04-10 15:47:48 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 11:25 am, "Norman M. Schwartz" <***@optonline.net> wrote:
> td wrote:
> > On Apr 10, 9:42 am, "Norman M. Schwartz" <***@optonline.net> wrote:
> >> I find that Zimerman does odd stuff in this Chopin concerto. Slows
> >> down at points, then suddenly plays much more softly and then in
> >> contrast maybe too loud. I even prefer the 12 year old Kissin who
> >> puts both concerti and 3 more Chopin pieces on a single disc,
> >> whereas Z requires 2 discs just for the concerti. (Playing time on a
> >> disc are of no concern to me.) Somehow I feel he both conducts and
> >> plays because he couldn't find a conductor willing to support his
> >> interpretations.
>
> > No.
>
> > Unable to follow his rubato sufficiently well.
>
> > Conductors really have no high regard for Chopin's orchestrations.
> > Zimmerman showed them just how good they are.
>
> So then does it follow that Ormandy with Van Cliburn, Previn with Licad,
> Wallenstein with Rubinstein, Skrowaczewski with Rubinstein, Mackerras with
> Ax ##1 & 2 (just a few of those I laid my hands to compare with Zimerman
> with Zimerman, have no regard for the orchestrations? I'm not a musician,
> can't read scores so the only thing I can relate to are other recordings.
> Doing that renders Zimerman just unbearble in these works; he appears to be
> making big heroic pieces of these concerti and I'm not led to the conclusion
> that they should fall into this category.
>
>
>
> > TD- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You will prefer whomever you prefer. Zimerman provides what might be
likened to the restoration of a great painting. He restores the vivid
colorations of the orchestral contribution as well as the expressive
flexibility - allows the listener to recover from dozens of rather
routine treatments of the accompaniment.

His pianism is what I would call "high resolution". Micro nuances are
possible from Zimerman, largely because he so scrupulously regulates
his piano to allow the finest of pianissimos with evenness and body of
tone.

Some might argue that he bends backwards a bit to restore these
subtelties of detail which he believes were Chopin's intentions. My
own initial reaction is that these are very special performances, and
that perhaps Zimerman realizes his ideals in #2 a little bit more
convincingly than #1.

Whether or not you agree with the interpretations, one must admit that
it is extroardinary quality being manifested here - quality we rarely
hear any more in this age of rushing and impatience.
Norman M. Schwartz
2009-04-10 16:13:35 UTC
Permalink
JohnGavin wrote:
> On Apr 10, 11:25 am, "Norman M. Schwartz" <***@optonline.net> wrote:
>> td wrote:
>>> On Apr 10, 9:42 am, "Norman M. Schwartz" <***@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>> I find that Zimerman does odd stuff in this Chopin concerto. Slows
>>>> down at points, then suddenly plays much more softly and then in
>>>> contrast maybe too loud. I even prefer the 12 year old Kissin who
>>>> puts both concerti and 3 more Chopin pieces on a single disc,
>>>> whereas Z requires 2 discs just for the concerti. (Playing time on
>>>> a disc are of no concern to me.) Somehow I feel he both conducts
>>>> and plays because he couldn't find a conductor willing to support
>>>> his interpretations.
>>
>>> No.
>>
>>> Unable to follow his rubato sufficiently well.
>>
>>> Conductors really have no high regard for Chopin's orchestrations.
>>> Zimmerman showed them just how good they are.
>>
>> So then does it follow that Ormandy with Van Cliburn, Previn with
>> Licad, Wallenstein with Rubinstein, Skrowaczewski with Rubinstein,
>> Mackerras with Ax ##1 & 2 (just a few of those I laid my hands to
>> compare with Zimerman with Zimerman, have no regard for the
>> orchestrations? I'm not a musician, can't read scores so the only
>> thing I can relate to are other recordings. Doing that renders
>> Zimerman just unbearble in these works; he appears to be making big
>> heroic pieces of these concerti and I'm not led to the conclusion
>> that they should fall into this category.
>>
>>
>>
>>> TD- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> You will prefer whomever you prefer. Zimerman provides what might be
> likened to the restoration of a great painting. He restores the vivid
> colorations of the orchestral contribution as well as the expressive
> flexibility - allows the listener to recover from dozens of rather
> routine treatments of the accompaniment.
>
> His pianism is what I would call "high resolution". Micro nuances are
> possible from Zimerman, largely because he so scrupulously regulates
> his piano to allow the finest of pianissimos with evenness and body of
> tone.
>
> Some might argue that he bends backwards a bit to restore these
> subtelties of detail which he believes were Chopin's intentions. My
> own initial reaction is that these are very special performances, and
> that perhaps Zimerman realizes his ideals in #2 a little bit more
> convincingly than #1.
>
> Whether or not you agree with the interpretations, one must admit that
> it is extroardinary quality being manifested here - quality we rarely
> hear any more in this age of rushing and impatience.

I'm not at knowledgeable in music, so I could hardly be in any position to
agree or disagree with anyone here or Zimerman. I only know that which I'm
familiar with from other recordings. Could Zimerman have possibly
interpreted these works differently solely for the sake of being different?
tomdeacon
2009-04-10 16:33:17 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 12:13 pm, "Norman M. Schwartz" <***@optonline.net> wrote:
> JohnGavin wrote:
> > On Apr 10, 11:25 am, "Norman M. Schwartz" <***@optonline.net> wrote:
> >> td wrote:
> >>> On Apr 10, 9:42 am, "Norman M. Schwartz" <***@optonline.net> wrote:
> >>>> I find that Zimerman does odd stuff in this Chopin concerto. Slows
> >>>> down at points, then suddenly plays much more softly and then in
> >>>> contrast maybe too loud. I even prefer the 12 year old Kissin who
> >>>> puts both concerti and 3 more Chopin pieces on a single disc,
> >>>> whereas Z requires 2 discs just for the concerti. (Playing time on
> >>>> a disc are of no concern to me.) Somehow I feel he both conducts
> >>>> and plays because he couldn't find a conductor willing to support
> >>>> his interpretations.
>
> >>> No.
>
> >>> Unable to follow his rubato sufficiently well.
>
> >>> Conductors really have no high regard for Chopin's orchestrations.
> >>> Zimmerman showed them just how good they are.
>
> >> So then does it follow that Ormandy with Van Cliburn, Previn with
> >> Licad, Wallenstein with Rubinstein, Skrowaczewski with Rubinstein,
> >> Mackerras with Ax ##1 & 2 (just a few of those I laid my hands to
> >> compare with Zimerman with Zimerman, have no regard for the
> >> orchestrations? I'm not a musician, can't read scores so the only
> >> thing I can relate to are other recordings. Doing that renders
> >> Zimerman just unbearble in these works; he appears to be making big
> >> heroic pieces of these concerti and I'm not led to the conclusion
> >> that they should fall into this category.
>
> >>> TD- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > You will prefer whomever you prefer.  Zimerman provides what might be
> > likened to the restoration of a great painting.  He restores the vivid
> > colorations of the orchestral contribution as well as the expressive
> > flexibility  - allows the listener to recover from dozens of rather
> > routine treatments of the accompaniment.
>
> > His pianism is what I would call "high resolution".  Micro nuances are
> > possible from Zimerman, largely because he so scrupulously regulates
> > his piano to allow the finest of pianissimos with evenness and body of
> > tone.
>
> > Some might argue that he bends backwards a bit to restore these
> > subtelties of detail which he believes were Chopin's intentions.  My
> > own initial reaction is that these are very special performances, and
> > that perhaps Zimerman realizes his ideals in #2 a little bit more
> > convincingly than #1.
>
> > Whether or not you agree with the interpretations, one must admit that
> > it is extroardinary quality being manifested here - quality we rarely
> > hear any more in this age of rushing and impatience.
>
> I'm not at knowledgeable in music, so I could hardly be in any position to
> agree or disagree with anyone here or Zimerman. I only know that which I'm
> familiar with from other recordings. Could Zimerman have possibly
> interpreted these works differently solely for the sake of being different?

Why would you look for a devious, oblique rationale rather than the
one which Zimmerman himself offers?

He is a very straightforward person, Norman, one not given to
falsehoods or self-inflation in the slightest way.

Whatever. The results are simply an extraordinary display of ensemble
between performing musicians the like of which we have not heard
before, I think.

It is even more extraordinary in that Zimmerman and his hand-picked
musicians did NOT have the benefit of the dozen or so live
performances behind them before the recording was made. The recording
preceded the tour, as a matter of fact.

I heard five of the tour performances. They remain among the most
outstanding concerts I have ever witnessed.

The others? Richter's Hammerklavier, Diabelli Variations, Prokofiev 7,
Moussorgsky Pictures. Serkin's Moonlight and Hammerklavier sonatas.
Kempff's Op. 109. Argerich at CH in New York in the early 1980s. Well,
just a handfull, I think equal what Zimmerman achieved.

You don't care for it? That's your choice, of course. But I have an
idea that your attitudes have been negatively affected by the other
performances on record you mention. Zimmerman is different, that's
all. And some of us find it ground-breaking.

TD
Simon Roberts
2009-04-12 00:09:53 UTC
Permalink
In article <49df6503$0$27778$***@cv.net>, Norman M. Schwartz says...
>
>td wrote:
>> On Apr 10, 9:42 am, "Norman M. Schwartz" <***@optonline.net> wrote:
>>> I find that Zimerman does odd stuff in this Chopin concerto. Slows
>>> down at points, then suddenly plays much more softly and then in
>>> contrast maybe too loud. I even prefer the 12 year old Kissin who
>>> puts both concerti and 3 more Chopin pieces on a single disc,
>>> whereas Z requires 2 discs just for the concerti. (Playing time on a
>>> disc are of no concern to me.) Somehow I feel he both conducts and
>>> plays because he couldn't find a conductor willing to support his
>>> interpretations.
>>
>> No.
>>
>> Unable to follow his rubato sufficiently well.
>>
>> Conductors really have no high regard for Chopin's orchestrations.
>> Zimmerman showed them just how good they are.
>>
>So then does it follow that Ormandy with Van Cliburn, Previn with Licad,
>Wallenstein with Rubinstein, Skrowaczewski with Rubinstein, Mackerras with
>Ax ##1 & 2 (just a few of those I laid my hands to compare with Zimerman
>with Zimerman, have no regard for the orchestrations?

Hard to say; but how many of them sound at all interested in the music? Very
few.

Simon
jpjones
2009-04-10 03:33:21 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes

On Apr 9, 8:49 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:

> Sure, there's that -- but then neither was ABM, and as as noted I never
> once was put off in an ABM recording the way I am by the Z Ballades
> (just did some listening via Youtube to studio video sessions as well;
> or are those the same).

The Z ballades have a somewhat repellent sound, at least to my ears.
This may be the recording that made him rebel against recordings
because they do not reflect his "real" sound... I definitely do not
find those recordings easy to listen to.

jpj
Rugby
2009-04-10 11:55:46 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 9, 7:49 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>
>
> I wouldn't compare his rubato to the uncanny magic you get from the ones
> loosed by Sofronitsky, Cortot, and Rosenthal in Chopin playing. Z's is a
> whole different kind, and much more straightforward.

My reaction as well to his Schubert Impromptus after hearing
Horszowski's efforts in these pieces.

Regards, Rugby
td
2009-04-10 12:05:57 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 7:55 am, Rugby <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 9, 7:49 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I wouldn't compare his rubato to the uncanny magic you get from the ones
> > loosed by Sofronitsky, Cortot, and Rosenthal in Chopin playing. Z's is a
> > whole different kind, and much more straightforward.
>
> My reaction as well to his Schubert Impromptus after hearing
> Horszowski's efforts in these pieces.

For the same approach in updated sound, try Perahia.

Cassard, however, is my latest enthusiasm.

In the end, however, it is not surprising that we hear a different
Chopin in Zimmerman from that of Sofro, Cortot, and Rosenthal. Nobody
plays like that today, thank God! That was then, this is now. Times
have changed and we no longer tolerate such wilful distortions in our
Chopin. Rubinstein cured us of all that nonsense.

Zimmerman is the leading exponent of the post-Rubinstein approach to
Chopin's music. He is, as I said, the "prince" among pianists today.
Always pure, elegant, youthful, distinguished, unsentimental.

TD
Rugby
2009-04-10 13:39:06 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 7:05 am, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
> In the end, however, it is not surprising that we hear a different
> Chopin in Zimmerman from that of Sofro, Cortot, and Rosenthal. Nobody
> plays like that today, thank God! That was then, this is now. Times
> have changed and we no longer tolerate such wilful distortions in our
> Chopin. Rubinstein cured us of all that nonsense.

There is room for much latitude in Chopin, and "distortions" are
always a controversial subject. I would not trade my Rosenthals nor my
Rubinsteins ( whom Rosenthal called "that little clown"), but then I
was not at the Salle Pleyel in Paris.The real pity is we have no
recordings of Mikuli ( who taught Rosenthal) or Jossefy . Did either
Mikuli or Jossefy ever comment on the Chopin playing of younger
Rosenthal, Rubinstein, Cortot, or were their dates too far apart ?

Rugby
Steve Emerson
2009-04-11 21:25:40 UTC
Permalink
In article
<dc56b489-c1eb-40e6-b42b-***@k2g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
Rugby <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Apr 10, 7:05 am, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
> > In the end, however, it is not surprising that we hear a different
> > Chopin in Zimmerman from that of Sofro, Cortot, and Rosenthal. Nobody
> > plays like that today, thank God! That was then, this is now. Times
> > have changed and we no longer tolerate such wilful distortions in our
> > Chopin. Rubinstein cured us of all that nonsense.
>
> There is room for much latitude in Chopin, and "distortions" are
> always a controversial subject. I would not trade my Rosenthals nor my
> Rubinsteins (whom Rosenthal called "that little clown"), but then I
> was not at the Salle Pleyel in Paris. The real pity is we have no
> recordings of Mikuli (who taught Rosenthal) or Jossefy . Did either
> Mikuli or Jossefy ever comment on the Chopin playing of younger
> Rosenthal, Rubinstein, Cortot, or were their dates too far apart ?

Rosenthal also studied with Franz Liszt. Dedicatee of the Op 10 etudes.
The line of descent from Chopin himself is very tight.

As for the "wilful distortions in our Chopin," the "nonsense" Rubinstein
cured us of --

Here's how Hector Berlioz described the Chopin playing of a
contemporary: "He found the reins of the beat irksome. For my liking he
pushed rhythmic indepndence too far." The pianist in question was...
Chopin.

There's every reason to suppose that's how the man expected his work to
be played.

Be all that as it may, I suspect we'll have to do without the glorious
rubatos found in Cortot, Rosenthal, and Sofronitsky in pianists to come.

Not just because it is "old fashioned," but because the art probably
becomes increasingly difficult to perfect as such masters and their
predecessors become more distant. A Sofronitsky rubato can be a piece of
uncanny genius that is unlikely to recur. But besides that, a rubato so
pronounced would seem to obviously demand more skill and greater
intellect than does a more metronomic approach. And now, who will impart
that skill?

I agree with Jones that young Blechaz to some extent reflects the
tradition, and he's a wonderful player (and himself a Pole). More
markedly, the tradition was often reflected in Fiorentino, a guy born
just four years before Brendel. Moravec to some extent participates. So
who knows.

SE.
Rugby
2009-04-11 21:31:56 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 11, 4:25 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net>
wrote:
kill?
>
> I agree with Jones that young Blechaz to some extent reflects the
> tradition, and he's a wonderful player (and himself a Pole). More
> markedly, the tradition was often reflected in Fiorentino, a guy born
> just four years before Brendel. Moravec to some extent participates. So
> who knows.
>

As did Fou Ts'ong from what little of him I've heard.

Rugby
Rugby
2009-04-11 21:36:22 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 11, 4:25 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net>
wrote:

> Rosenthal also studied with Franz Liszt. Dedicatee of the Op 10 etudes.
> The line of descent from Chopin himself is very tight.
>

From Allan Evans' Rosenthal book , Rosenthal speaks:

"There is no such thing as a new school of piano playing.The mere
fact that one has not studied with Liszt, that one has not heard the
Chopin school,and that one has never been priviledged to hear
Rubinstein is a colossal drawback and can never constitute in its
helpless negativity any claim to distinction or greatness.Having
missed the great triumvirate,the pianists of the younger generation
are bound to learn from those of us who had the great privilege to
study directly or indirectly with these musical and pianistic
giants.If they choose to turn away from us they will not harm us, but
themselves."

Regards, Rugby
td
2009-04-11 21:43:18 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 11, 5:25 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net>
wrote:
> In article
> <dc56b489-c1eb-40e6-b42b-***@k2g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
>
>  Rugby <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 10, 7:05 am, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
> > > In the end, however, it is not surprising that we hear a different
> > > Chopin in Zimmerman from that of Sofro, Cortot, and Rosenthal. Nobody
> > > plays like that today, thank God! That was then, this is now. Times
> > > have changed and we no longer tolerate such wilful distortions in our
> > > Chopin. Rubinstein cured us of all that nonsense.
>
> > There is room for much latitude in Chopin, and "distortions" are
> > always a controversial subject. I would not trade my Rosenthals nor my
> > Rubinsteins (whom Rosenthal called "that little clown"), but then I
> > was not at the Salle Pleyel in Paris. The real pity is we have no
> > recordings of Mikuli (who taught Rosenthal) or Jossefy . Did either
> > Mikuli or Jossefy ever comment on the Chopin playing of younger
> > Rosenthal, Rubinstein, Cortot, or were their dates too far apart ?
>
> Rosenthal also studied with Franz Liszt. Dedicatee of the Op 10 etudes.
> The line of descent from Chopin himself is very tight.
>
> As for the "wilful distortions in our Chopin," the "nonsense" Rubinstein
> cured us of --
>
> Here's how Hector Berlioz described the Chopin playing of a
> contemporary: "He found the reins of the beat irksome. For my liking he
> pushed rhythmic indepndence too far." The pianist in question was...
> Chopin.
>
> There's every reason to suppose that's how the man expected his work to
> be played.
>
> Be all that as it may, I suspect we'll have to do without the glorious
> rubatos found in Cortot, Rosenthal, and Sofronitsky in pianists to come.
>
> Not just because it is "old fashioned," but because the art probably
> becomes increasingly difficult to perfect as such masters and their
> predecessors become more distant. A Sofronitsky rubato can be a piece of
> uncanny genius that is unlikely to recur. But besides that, a rubato so
> pronounced would seem to obviously demand more skill and greater
> intellect than does a more metronomic approach. And now, who will impart
> that skill?
>
> I agree with Jones that young Blechaz to some extent reflects the
> tradition, and he's a wonderful player (and himself a Pole). More
> markedly, the tradition was often reflected in Fiorentino, a guy born
> just four years before Brendel. Moravec to some extent participates. So
> who knows.

I disagree about Blechaz. Early promise was not substantiated by his
Preludes, which were perfumed in the most distastefully old-fashioned
manner. I suppose "mannered" is the right word, although I think it
isn't a helpful one.

Even if Ignaz Friedman were to materialize before us today, we would
probably find his playing unbearably wilful. On records, as a historic
artefact, we can be appreciative. Ditto with Cortot and others. But
today we simply would not tolerate such stuff.

Of today's players the ones I want to hear play Chopin the most are
still Moravec, Argerich, Freire, Zimerman, Fou Ts'ong, and a few
others. None of them is like Rubinstein in the slightest, but all have
a sense of taste and the right "sound" for Chopin's music. Given that
they are all so different, one has to admit that such a sound has a
wide latitude.

TD
Steve Emerson
2009-04-11 22:02:55 UTC
Permalink
In article
<16371c53-14ca-4948-b507-***@f18g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,
td <***@mac.com> wrote:

> Steve Emerson wrote:
>
> > Rosenthal also studied with Franz Liszt. Dedicatee of the Op 10 etudes.
> > The line of descent from Chopin himself is very tight.
> >
> > As for the "wilful distortions in our Chopin," the "nonsense" Rubinstein
> > cured us of --
> >
> > Here's how Hector Berlioz described the Chopin playing of a
> > contemporary: "He found the reins of the beat irksome. For my liking he
> > pushed rhythmic indepndence too far." The pianist in question was...
> > Chopin.
> >
> > There's every reason to suppose that's how the man expected his work to
> > be played.
> >
> > Be all that as it may, I suspect we'll have to do without the glorious
> > rubatos found in Cortot, Rosenthal, and Sofronitsky in pianists to come.
> >
> > Not just because it is "old fashioned," but because the art probably
> > becomes increasingly difficult to perfect as such masters and their
> > predecessors become more distant. A Sofronitsky rubato can be a piece of
> > uncanny genius that is unlikely to recur. But besides that, a rubato so
> > pronounced would seem to obviously demand more skill and greater
> > intellect than does a more metronomic approach. And now, who will impart
> > that skill?
> >
> > I agree with Jones that young Blechaz to some extent reflects the
> > tradition, and he's a wonderful player (and himself a Pole). More
> > markedly, the tradition was often reflected in Fiorentino, a guy born
> > just four years before Brendel. Moravec to some extent participates. So
> > who knows.
>
> I disagree about Blechaz. Early promise was not substantiated by his
> Preludes, which were perfumed in the most distastefully old-fashioned
> manner. I suppose "mannered" is the right word, although I think it
> isn't a helpful one.
>
> Even if Ignaz Friedman were to materialize before us today, we would
> probably find his playing unbearably wilful. On records, as a historic
> artefact, we can be appreciative. Ditto with Cortot and others. But
> today we simply would not tolerate such stuff.

Friedman would seem dated. Much of Cortot, I think not. With
Sofronitsky, there no doubt would be many who wouldn't tolerate it (were
the impossible to occur and such an uncanny rubato to come to us again),
but that would be painfully short-sighted. In a word, prejudiced.

> Of today's players the ones I want to hear play Chopin the most are
> still Moravec, Argerich, Freire, Zimerman, Fou Ts'ong, and a few
> others.

I'm partial to the Chopin of 3-1/2 of the five. However: in Fou's
earlier recordings especially, he used a rubato that was huge, arguably
bigger than he could really pull off. Moravec is far from metronomic
himself. Tasteful, yes. The point being merely that neither strikes me
as "post-Rubinstein."

> None of them is like Rubinstein in the slightest,

Right.

> but all have a sense of taste and the right "sound" for Chopin's music.

Pretty arguable in the case of Argerich, I think, despite excellence in
the third sonata and mazurkas. But I digress. --SE.

> Given that
> they are all so different, one has to admit that such a sound has a
> wide latitude.
jpjones
2009-04-11 22:09:05 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes

On Apr 11, 6:02 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net>
wrote:

> Pretty arguable in the case of Argerich, I think, despite excellence in
> the third sonata and mazurkas. But I digress. --SE.

I have never warmed up to Argerich in Chopin. It sounds like the wrong
repertoire for her. I know, it sounds like heresy... She often sounds
like she's in a hurry to get somewhere. Freire is far more to my
liking in Chopin, as is Pires and even Pollini (on a good day,
preferably in concert).

jpj
a***@att.net
2009-04-11 23:29:05 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 11, 5:43 pm, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
> On Apr 11, 5:25 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <dc56b489-c1eb-40e6-b42b-***@k2g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >  Rugby <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Apr 10, 7:05 am, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
> > > > In the end, however, it is not surprising that we hear a different
> > > > Chopin in Zimmerman from that of Sofro, Cortot, and Rosenthal. Nobody
> > > > plays like that today, thank God! That was then, this is now. Times
> > > > have changed and we no longer tolerate such wilful distortions in our
> > > > Chopin. Rubinstein cured us of all that nonsense.
>
> > > There is room for much latitude in Chopin, and "distortions" are
> > > always a controversial subject. I would not trade my Rosenthals nor my
> > > Rubinsteins (whom Rosenthal called "that little clown"), but then I
> > > was not at the Salle Pleyel in Paris. The real pity is we have no
> > > recordings of Mikuli (who taught Rosenthal) or Jossefy . Did either
> > > Mikuli or Jossefy ever comment on the Chopin playing of younger
> > > Rosenthal, Rubinstein, Cortot, or were their dates too far apart ?
>
> > Rosenthal also studied with Franz Liszt. Dedicatee of the Op 10 etudes.
> > The line of descent from Chopin himself is very tight.
>
> > As for the "wilful distortions in our Chopin," the "nonsense" Rubinstein
> > cured us of --
>
> > Here's how Hector Berlioz described the Chopin playing of a
> > contemporary: "He found the reins of the beat irksome. For my liking he
> > pushed rhythmic indepndence too far." The pianist in question was...
> > Chopin.
>
> > There's every reason to suppose that's how the man expected his work to
> > be played.
>
> > Be all that as it may, I suspect we'll have to do without the glorious
> > rubatos found in Cortot, Rosenthal, and Sofronitsky in pianists to come.
>
> > Not just because it is "old fashioned," but because the art probably
> > becomes increasingly difficult to perfect as such masters and their
> > predecessors become more distant. A Sofronitsky rubato can be a piece of
> > uncanny genius that is unlikely to recur. But besides that, a rubato so
> > pronounced would seem to obviously demand more skill and greater
> > intellect than does a more metronomic approach. And now, who will impart
> > that skill?
>
> > I agree with Jones that young Blechaz to some extent reflects the
> > tradition, and he's a wonderful player (and himself a Pole). More
> > markedly, the tradition was often reflected in Fiorentino, a guy born
> > just four years before Brendel. Moravec to some extent participates. So
> > who knows.
>
> I disagree about Blechaz. Early promise was not substantiated by his
> Preludes, which were perfumed in the most distastefully old-fashioned
> manner. I suppose "mannered" is the right word, although I think it
> isn't a helpful one.
>
> Even if Ignaz Friedman were to materialize before us today, we would
> probably find his playing unbearably wilful. On records, as a historic
> artefact, we can be appreciative. Ditto with Cortot and others. But
> today we simply would not tolerate such stuff.
>
> Of today's players the ones I want to hear play Chopin the most are
> still Moravec, Argerich, Freire, Zimerman, Fou Ts'ong, and a few
> others. None of them is like Rubinstein in the slightest, but all have
> a sense of taste and the right "sound" for Chopin's music. Given that
> they are all so different, one has to admit that such a sound has a
> wide latitude.
>
> TD- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Argerich in Chopin??? The Preludes or the B minor sonata. Musically
they are awful and you like that playing......... cant understand but
maybe I should by now.........

AB
jpjones
2009-04-10 17:28:51 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes

On Apr 10, 8:05 am, td <***@mac.com> wrote:

> In the end, however, it is not surprising that we hear a different
> Chopin in Zimmerman from that of Sofro, Cortot, and Rosenthal. Nobody
> plays like that today, thank God! That was then, this is now. Times
> have changed and we no longer tolerate such wilful distortions in our
> Chopin. Rubinstein cured us of all that nonsense.
>
> Zimmerman is the leading exponent of the post-Rubinstein approach to
> Chopin's music. He is, as I said, the "prince" among pianists today.
> Always pure, elegant, youthful, distinguished, unsentimental.
>
I am not sure that he is the leading exponent of post-Rubinstein. Too
much competition. And the pre-Rubinstein approach is very much alive.
Just listen to Goerner, Shebanova, Bunin, Blechacz, Sokolov, Pires and
many others, not to mention the dead like Sofronitsky, Cziffra and
François, all much younger than Rubinstein. Some channel Koczalski,
others taunt the listener with Friedmanism, others are neo-Cortotians,
others are pretty much sui generis.

As to the willful distortions, that makes no sense musically. The only
thing that matters is the result. To promote Serkinism at this late
date is curious, to say the least.

jpj
a***@att.net
2009-04-11 00:15:41 UTC
Permalink
> Zimmerman is the leading exponent of the post-Rubinstein approach to
> Chopin's music. He is, as I said, the "prince" among pianists today.
> Always pure, elegant, youthful, distinguished, unsentimental.
>
> TD

garbage, Z. displays NONE of the qualities of Ruby....... beauty of
tone, lovely phrasing, natural and spontaneous playing. Z. is
mannered, calculating, careful, non-spontaneous, etc. He does have a
fabulous technique......
AB
tomdeacon
2009-04-11 01:04:43 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 8:15 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
> > Zimmerman is the leading exponent of the post-Rubinstein approach to
> > Chopin's music. He is, as I said, the "prince" among pianists today.
> > Always pure, elegant, youthful, distinguished, unsentimental.
>
> > TD
>
> garbage, Z. displays NONE of the qualities of Ruby....... beauty of
> tone, lovely phrasing, natural and spontaneous playing.   Z. is
> mannered, calculating, careful, non-spontaneous, etc. He does have a
> fabulous technique......

You wouldn't know a fabulous technique if it ran into you in the
synagogue, Arri.

TD
a***@att.net
2009-04-11 23:40:10 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 9:04 pm, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:
> On Apr 10, 8:15 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > Zimmerman is the leading exponent of the post-Rubinstein approach to
> > > Chopin's music. He is, as I said, the "prince" among pianists today.
> > > Always pure, elegant, youthful, distinguished, unsentimental.
>
> > > TD
>
> > garbage, Z. displays NONE of the qualities of Ruby....... beauty of
> > tone, lovely phrasing, natural and spontaneous playing.   Z. is
> > mannered, calculating, careful, non-spontaneous, etc. He does have a
> > fabulous technique......
>
> You wouldn't know a fabulous technique if it ran into you in the
> synagogue, Arri.
>
> TD

but if I ran into your "church" I would know??? You anti-Semitism is
starting to reek again from your old, wizend body.....

AB
a***@att.net
2009-04-08 20:07:55 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 8, 3:12 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Apr 8, 2:38 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 6, 8:59 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> > > Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs.  -  I'm totally blown away,
> > > particularly with the performance of the PC #2.  WOW!   This is
> > > superlative in every way.  A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> > > the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> > > this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> > > time.
>
> > > Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere.  Stunning,
> > > drop-dead beautiful.  A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> > > into this great recording.
>
> > > (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> > > totally convincing as #2).
>
> > > Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> > > second to none.
>
> > I must disagree........ I find the playing a bit boring, lacks color
> > and is dull IMO. Like TD describes Volodos:-)
>
> > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan.  The recordings of his that I have
> so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> toughfulness.
>
> A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> refinement and mastery.
>
> I don't find him boring in the least  - but rather totally engrossing
> - the sheer quality of his work is a joy to hear.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

there is no doubt to the "quality of his work" but for me that does
not translate into interesting playing. Rather listen to Cherkassky,
for example, who does not have Z.s facility nor total command BUT
plays with imagination and vitality.

AB
JohnGavin
2009-04-08 20:51:41 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 8, 4:07 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
> On Apr 8, 3:12 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 8, 2:38 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 6, 8:59 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> > > > Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs.  -  I'm totally blown away,
> > > > particularly with the performance of the PC #2.  WOW!   This is
> > > > superlative in every way.  A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> > > > the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> > > > this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> > > > time.
>
> > > > Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere.  Stunning,
> > > > drop-dead beautiful.  A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> > > > into this great recording.
>
> > > > (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> > > > totally convincing as #2).
>
> > > > Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> > > > second to none.
>
> > > I must disagree........ I find the playing a bit boring, lacks color
> > > and is dull IMO. Like TD describes Volodos:-)
>
> > > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan.  The recordings of his that I have
> > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > toughfulness.
>
> > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > refinement and mastery.
>
> > I don't find him boring in the least  - but rather totally engrossing
> > - the sheer quality of his work is a joy to hear.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> there is no doubt to the "quality of his work" but for me that does
> not translate into interesting playing. Rather listen to Cherkassky,
> for example, who does not have Z.s facility nor total command BUT
> plays with imagination and vitality.
>
> AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Compare Zimerman with Cherkassky?.....hmmmm.

You're not making a very strong case for yourself Arri.
td
2009-04-08 21:27:33 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 8, 4:51 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Apr 8, 4:07 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 8, 3:12 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 8, 2:38 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 6, 8:59 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> > > > > Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs.  -  I'm totally blown away,
> > > > > particularly with the performance of the PC #2.  WOW!   This is
> > > > > superlative in every way.  A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> > > > > the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> > > > > this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> > > > > time.
>
> > > > > Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere.  Stunning,
> > > > > drop-dead beautiful.  A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> > > > > into this great recording.
>
> > > > > (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> > > > > totally convincing as #2).
>
> > > > > Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> > > > > second to none.
>
> > > > I must disagree........ I find the playing a bit boring, lacks color
> > > > and is dull IMO. Like TD describes Volodos:-)
>
> > > > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan.  The recordings of his that I have
> > > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > > toughfulness.
>
> > > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > > refinement and mastery.
>
> > > I don't find him boring in the least  - but rather totally engrossing
> > > - the sheer quality of his work is a joy to hear.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > there is no doubt to the "quality of his work" but for me that does
> > not translate into interesting playing. Rather listen to Cherkassky,
> > for example, who does not have Z.s facility nor total command BUT
> > plays with imagination and vitality.
>
> > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Compare Zimerman with Cherkassky?.....hmmmm.
>
> You're not making a very strong case for yourself Arri.

You have to realize that Arri's paradigm is the silk-underwear pianism
of Josef "How can I shorten this boring Kreisleriana" Hofmann.
Zimerman is also a powerful intellect. That too bothers Arri, who
prefers the childlike enthusiasms of the moment of Shura.

It's all understandable,, John. And as you say, not a strong case.

TD
a***@att.net
2009-04-09 17:54:45 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 8, 5:27 pm, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
> On Apr 8, 4:51 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 8, 4:07 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 8, 3:12 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 8, 2:38 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 6, 8:59 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> > > > > > Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs.  -  I'm totally blown away,
> > > > > > particularly with the performance of the PC #2.  WOW!   This is
> > > > > > superlative in every way.  A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> > > > > > the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> > > > > > this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> > > > > > time.
>
> > > > > > Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere.  Stunning,
> > > > > > drop-dead beautiful.  A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> > > > > > into this great recording.
>
> > > > > > (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> > > > > > totally convincing as #2).
>
> > > > > > Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> > > > > > second to none.
>
> > > > > I must disagree........ I find the playing a bit boring, lacks color
> > > > > and is dull IMO. Like TD describes Volodos:-)
>
> > > > > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan.  The recordings of his that I have
> > > > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > > > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > > > toughfulness.
>
> > > > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > > > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > > > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > > > refinement and mastery.
>
> > > > I don't find him boring in the least  - but rather totally engrossing
> > > > - the sheer quality of his work is a joy to hear.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > there is no doubt to the "quality of his work" but for me that does
> > > not translate into interesting playing. Rather listen to Cherkassky,
> > > for example, who does not have Z.s facility nor total command BUT
> > > plays with imagination and vitality.
>
> > > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Compare Zimerman with Cherkassky?.....hmmmm.
>
> > You're not making a very strong case for yourself Arri.
>
> You have to realize that Arri's paradigm is the silk-underwear pianism
> of Josef "How can I shorten this boring Kreisleriana" Hofmann.
> Zimerman is also a powerful intellect. That too bothers Arri, who
> prefers the childlike enthusiasms of the moment of Shura.
>
> It's all understandable,, John. And as you say, not a strong case.
>
> TD- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

how does one recognize.... "the powerful intellect of a pianist" . You
remind me of that idiot Tomasiini in the NY Tiimes who says such
foolishness....... grow up TD, you are not talking to a bunch of high-
school kids.

AB
td
2009-04-09 19:47:01 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 9, 1:54 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
> On Apr 8, 5:27 pm, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 8, 4:51 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 8, 4:07 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 8, 3:12 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 8, 2:38 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 6, 8:59 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> > > > > > > Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs.  -  I'm totally blown away,
> > > > > > > particularly with the performance of the PC #2.  WOW!   This is
> > > > > > > superlative in every way.  A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> > > > > > > the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> > > > > > > this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> > > > > > > time.
>
> > > > > > > Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere.  Stunning,
> > > > > > > drop-dead beautiful.  A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> > > > > > > into this great recording.
>
> > > > > > > (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> > > > > > > totally convincing as #2).
>
> > > > > > > Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> > > > > > > second to none.
>
> > > > > > I must disagree........ I find the playing a bit boring, lacks color
> > > > > > and is dull IMO. Like TD describes Volodos:-)
>
> > > > > > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan.  The recordings of his that I have
> > > > > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > > > > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > > > > toughfulness.
>
> > > > > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > > > > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > > > > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > > > > refinement and mastery.
>
> > > > > I don't find him boring in the least  - but rather totally engrossing
> > > > > - the sheer quality of his work is a joy to hear.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > there is no doubt to the "quality of his work" but for me that does
> > > > not translate into interesting playing. Rather listen to Cherkassky,
> > > > for example, who does not have Z.s facility nor total command BUT
> > > > plays with imagination and vitality.
>
> > > > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Compare Zimerman with Cherkassky?.....hmmmm.
>
> > > You're not making a very strong case for yourself Arri.
>
> > You have to realize that Arri's paradigm is the silk-underwear pianism
> > of Josef "How can I shorten this boring Kreisleriana" Hofmann.
> > Zimerman is also a powerful intellect. That too bothers Arri, who
> > prefers the childlike enthusiasms of the moment of Shura.
>
> > It's all understandable,, John. And as you say, not a strong case.
>
> > TD- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> how does one recognize.... "the powerful intellect of a pianist" . You
> remind me of that idiot Tomasiini in the NY Tiimes who says such
> foolishness......

Hmmmmmm.

An opinion without facts. How typical.

. grow up TD, you are not talking to a bunch of high-
> school kids.

In your case, Arri, I am talking to a retard, which is far more
pathetic.

TD
a***@att.net
2009-04-09 23:35:56 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 9, 3:47 pm, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
> On Apr 9, 1:54 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 8, 5:27 pm, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 8, 4:51 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 8, 4:07 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 8, 3:12 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 8, 2:38 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Apr 6, 8:59 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> > > > > > > > Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs.  -  I'm totally blown away,
> > > > > > > > particularly with the performance of the PC #2.  WOW!   This is
> > > > > > > > superlative in every way.  A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> > > > > > > > the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> > > > > > > > this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> > > > > > > > time.
>
> > > > > > > > Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere.  Stunning,
> > > > > > > > drop-dead beautiful.  A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> > > > > > > > into this great recording.
>
> > > > > > > > (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> > > > > > > > totally convincing as #2).
>
> > > > > > > > Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> > > > > > > > second to none.
>
> > > > > > > I must disagree........ I find the playing a bit boring, lacks color
> > > > > > > and is dull IMO. Like TD describes Volodos:-)
>
> > > > > > > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan.  The recordings of his that I have
> > > > > > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > > > > > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > > > > > toughfulness.
>
> > > > > > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > > > > > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > > > > > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > > > > > refinement and mastery.
>
> > > > > > I don't find him boring in the least  - but rather totally engrossing
> > > > > > - the sheer quality of his work is a joy to hear.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > there is no doubt to the "quality of his work" but for me that does
> > > > > not translate into interesting playing. Rather listen to Cherkassky,
> > > > > for example, who does not have Z.s facility nor total command BUT
> > > > > plays with imagination and vitality.
>
> > > > > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > Compare Zimerman with Cherkassky?.....hmmmm.
>
> > > > You're not making a very strong case for yourself Arri.
>
> > > You have to realize that Arri's paradigm is the silk-underwear pianism
> > > of Josef "How can I shorten this boring Kreisleriana" Hofmann.
> > > Zimerman is also a powerful intellect. That too bothers Arri, who
> > > prefers the childlike enthusiasms of the moment of Shura.
>
> > > It's all understandable,, John. And as you say, not a strong case.
>
> > > TD- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > how does one recognize.... "the powerful intellect of a pianist" . You
> > remind me of that idiot Tomasiini in the NY Tiimes who says such
> > foolishness......
>
> Hmmmmmm.
>
> An opinion without facts. How typical.
>
> . grow up TD, you are not talking to a bunch of high-
>
> > school kids.
>
> In your case, Arri, I am talking to a retard, which is far more
> pathetic.
>
> TD- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I find it pathetic that you would waste your time talking to a retard,
or anyone else for that matter...

AB
td
2009-04-10 00:28:18 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 9, 7:35 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
> On Apr 9, 3:47 pm, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 9, 1:54 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 8, 5:27 pm, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 8, 4:51 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 8, 4:07 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 8, 3:12 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Apr 8, 2:38 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Apr 6, 8:59 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> > > > > > > > > Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs.  -  I'm totally blown away,
> > > > > > > > > particularly with the performance of the PC #2.  WOW!   This is
> > > > > > > > > superlative in every way.  A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> > > > > > > > > the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> > > > > > > > > this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> > > > > > > > > time.
>
> > > > > > > > > Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere.  Stunning,
> > > > > > > > > drop-dead beautiful.  A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> > > > > > > > > into this great recording.
>
> > > > > > > > > (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> > > > > > > > > totally convincing as #2).
>
> > > > > > > > > Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> > > > > > > > > second to none.
>
> > > > > > > > I must disagree........ I find the playing a bit boring, lacks color
> > > > > > > > and is dull IMO. Like TD describes Volodos:-)
>
> > > > > > > > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan.  The recordings of his that I have
> > > > > > > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > > > > > > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > > > > > > toughfulness.
>
> > > > > > > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > > > > > > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > > > > > > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > > > > > > refinement and mastery.
>
> > > > > > > I don't find him boring in the least  - but rather totally engrossing
> > > > > > > - the sheer quality of his work is a joy to hear.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > there is no doubt to the "quality of his work" but for me that does
> > > > > > not translate into interesting playing. Rather listen to Cherkassky,
> > > > > > for example, who does not have Z.s facility nor total command BUT
> > > > > > plays with imagination and vitality.
>
> > > > > > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > Compare Zimerman with Cherkassky?.....hmmmm.
>
> > > > > You're not making a very strong case for yourself Arri.
>
> > > > You have to realize that Arri's paradigm is the silk-underwear pianism
> > > > of Josef "How can I shorten this boring Kreisleriana" Hofmann.
> > > > Zimerman is also a powerful intellect. That too bothers Arri, who
> > > > prefers the childlike enthusiasms of the moment of Shura.
>
> > > > It's all understandable,, John. And as you say, not a strong case.
>
> > > > TD- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > how does one recognize.... "the powerful intellect of a pianist" . You
> > > remind me of that idiot Tomasiini in the NY Tiimes who says such
> > > foolishness......
>
> > Hmmmmmm.
>
> > An opinion without facts. How typical.
>
> > . grow up TD, you are not talking to a bunch of high-
>
> > > school kids.
>
> > In your case, Arri, I am talking to a retard, which is far more
> > pathetic.
>
> > TD- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I find it pathetic that you would waste your time talking to a retard,
> or anyone else for that matter...

Good point.

TD
a***@att.net
2009-04-11 00:11:24 UTC
Permalink
To TD.

> > > > how does one recognize.... "the powerful intellect of a pianist" . You
> > > > remind me of that idiot Tomasiini in the NY Tiimes who says such
> > > > foolishness......

Above is one of TD's inane, pompus bullshits.... to indulge in TD's
language..... answer the above....... HOW THE FUCK CAN ONE RECOGNIZE
THE POWERFUL INTELLECT OF A PIANIST????
How can you tell that Zimmerman has that "powerful intellect"??? Did
Hatto have that quality??? :-)))

Tell us, How do YOU do that since you wrote that sentence
above........ You are a perfect example of a good intellect with
minimal musicality. You have book knowledge but you really dont hear
the differences clearly between pianists. That is obvious from your
posts......

AB
tomdeacon
2009-04-11 01:03:06 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 8:11 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>  To TD.
>
> > > > > how does one recognize.... "the powerful intellect of a pianist" . You
> > > > > remind me of that idiot Tomasiini in the NY Tiimes who says such
> > > > > foolishness......
>
> Above is one of TD's inane, pompus bullshits.... to indulge in TD's
> language..... answer the above....... HOW THE FUCK CAN ONE RECOGNIZE
> THE POWERFUL INTELLECT OF A PIANIST????
> How can you tell that Zimmerman has that "powerful intellect"???  

I AM sorry Arri. I didn't mean to lord it over you. But now that you
have STOPPED SHOUTING, I should tell you that it is very easy when you
know the man.

Zimmerman has the kind of superior intellect that would make a mere
mortal, not to say complete idiot, like you get down on his knees and
kiss his fucking feet.

No Moses, perhaps. No Jesus, either.

But not far off, pianistically speaking, you understand.

TD
jpjones
2009-04-11 01:20:13 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes

On Apr 10, 9:03 pm, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:

> I AM sorry Arri. I didn't mean to lord it over you. But now that you
> have STOPPED SHOUTING, I should tell you that it is very easy when you
> know the man.
>
> Zimmerman has the kind of superior intellect that would make a mere
> mortal, not to say complete idiot, like you get down on his knees and
> kiss his fucking feet.
>

You don't mean to lord over him and you practically force him to bend
over and kiss the feet of Krystian Zimerman?

> No Moses, perhaps. No Jesus, either.
>
> But not far off, pianistically speaking, you understand.

His intellect and personal virtues have nothing whatsoever to do with
the magic (or lack thereof) of his performances. He could be a total
asshole without much "intellect" and still play the hell out of the
piano or other instrument.

jpj
O
2009-04-11 03:10:28 UTC
Permalink
In article
<29f2d2f0-de2d-43ff-8a1f-***@v9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> On Apr 10, 9:03 pm, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > I AM sorry Arri. I didn't mean to lord it over you. But now that you
> > have STOPPED SHOUTING, I should tell you that it is very easy when you
> > know the man.
> >
> > Zimmerman has the kind of superior intellect that would make a mere
> > mortal, not to say complete idiot, like you get down on his knees and
> > kiss his fucking feet.
> >
>
> You don't mean to lord over him and you practically force him to bend
> over and kiss the feet of Krystian Zimerman?
>
> > No Moses, perhaps. No Jesus, either.
> >
> > But not far off, pianistically speaking, you understand.
>
> His intellect and personal virtues have nothing whatsoever to do with
> the magic (or lack thereof) of his performances. He could be a total
> asshole without much "intellect" and still play the hell out of the
> piano or other instrument.

Methinks TD has a "mancrush."

-Owen
td
2009-04-11 10:54:22 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 11:10 pm, O <***@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> In article
> <29f2d2f0-de2d-43ff-8a1f-***@v9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > X-No-Archive: yes
>
> > On Apr 10, 9:03 pm, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > > I AM sorry Arri. I didn't mean to lord it over you. But now that you
> > > have STOPPED SHOUTING, I should tell you that it is very easy when you
> > > know the man.
>
> > > Zimmerman has the kind of superior intellect that would make a mere
> > > mortal, not to say complete idiot, like you get down on his knees and
> > > kiss his fucking feet.
>
> > You don't mean to lord over him and you practically force him to bend
> > over and kiss the feet of Krystian Zimerman?
>
> > > No Moses, perhaps. No Jesus, either.
>
> > > But not far off, pianistically speaking, you understand.
>
> > His intellect and personal virtues have nothing whatsoever to do with
> > the magic (or lack thereof) of his performances. He could be a total
> > asshole without much "intellect" and still play the hell out of the
> > piano or other instrument.
>
> Methinks TD has a "mancrush."

Hmmmmm.

Zimerman is a pianist. Not a pinup.

TD
td
2009-04-11 10:56:23 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 11, 6:54 am, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
> On Apr 10, 11:10 pm, O <***@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <29f2d2f0-de2d-43ff-8a1f-***@v9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > X-No-Archive: yes
>
> > > On Apr 10, 9:03 pm, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I AM sorry Arri. I didn't mean to lord it over you. But now that you
> > > > have STOPPED SHOUTING, I should tell you that it is very easy when you
> > > > know the man.
>
> > > > Zimmerman has the kind of superior intellect that would make a mere
> > > > mortal, not to say complete idiot, like you get down on his knees and
> > > > kiss his fucking feet.
>
> > > You don't mean to lord over him and you practically force him to bend
> > > over and kiss the feet of Krystian Zimerman?
>
> > > > No Moses, perhaps. No Jesus, either.
>
> > > > But not far off, pianistically speaking, you understand.
>
> > > His intellect and personal virtues have nothing whatsoever to do with
> > > the magic (or lack thereof) of his performances. He could be a total
> > > asshole without much "intellect" and still play the hell out of the
> > > piano or other instrument.
>
> > Methinks TD has a "mancrush."
>
> Hmmmmm.
>
> Zimerman is a pianist. Not a pinup.

What asshole changed the topin in this thread?

Oh, the ARRI asshole.

Quelle surprise!

TD
a***@att.net
2009-04-11 23:34:46 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 11:10 pm, O <***@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> In article
> <29f2d2f0-de2d-43ff-8a1f-***@v9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > X-No-Archive: yes
>
> > On Apr 10, 9:03 pm, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > > I AM sorry Arri. I didn't mean to lord it over you. But now that you
> > > have STOPPED SHOUTING, I should tell you that it is very easy when you
> > > know the man.
>
> > > Zimmerman has the kind of superior intellect that would make a mere
> > > mortal, not to say complete idiot, like you get down on his knees and
> > > kiss his fucking feet.
>
> > You don't mean to lord over him and you practically force him to bend
> > over and kiss the feet of Krystian Zimerman?
>
> > > No Moses, perhaps. No Jesus, either.
>
> > > But not far off, pianistically speaking, you understand.
>
> > His intellect and personal virtues have nothing whatsoever to do with
> > the magic (or lack thereof) of his performances. He could be a total
> > asshole without much "intellect" and still play the hell out of the
> > piano or other instrument.
>
> Methinks TD has a "mancrush."
>
> -Owen- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

it probably would not be the first time.........include Brendel on his
list.

AB
td
2009-04-11 10:52:33 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 9:20 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> On Apr 10, 9:03 pm, tomdeacon <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > I AM sorry Arri. I didn't mean to lord it over you. But now that you
> > have STOPPED SHOUTING, I should tell you that it is very easy when you
> > know the man.
>
> > Zimmerman has the kind of superior intellect that would make a mere
> > mortal, not to say complete idiot, like you get down on his knees and
> > kiss his fucking feet.
>
> You don't mean to lord over him and you practically force him to bend
> over and kiss the feet of Krystian Zimerman?
>
> > No Moses, perhaps. No Jesus, either.
>
> > But not far off, pianistically speaking, you understand.
>
> His intellect and personal virtues have nothing whatsoever to do with
> the magic (or lack thereof) of his performances. He could be a total
> asshole without much "intellect" and still play the hell out of the
> piano or other instrument.

Hmmmmmm.

Please chain this man to a chair and force him to listen to Shura
Cherkassky play the Hammerklavier sonata ad infinitum.

Since he is clearly brainless anyway, he'll probably enjoy it.

TD
a***@att.net
2009-04-09 17:51:20 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 8, 4:51 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Apr 8, 4:07 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 8, 3:12 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 8, 2:38 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 6, 8:59 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> > > > > Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs.  -  I'm totally blown away,
> > > > > particularly with the performance of the PC #2.  WOW!   This is
> > > > > superlative in every way.  A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> > > > > the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> > > > > this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> > > > > time.
>
> > > > > Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere.  Stunning,
> > > > > drop-dead beautiful.  A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> > > > > into this great recording.
>
> > > > > (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> > > > > totally convincing as #2).
>
> > > > > Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> > > > > second to none.
>
> > > > I must disagree........ I find the playing a bit boring, lacks color
> > > > and is dull IMO. Like TD describes Volodos:-)
>
> > > > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan.  The recordings of his that I have
> > > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > > toughfulness.
>
> > > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > > refinement and mastery.
>
> > > I don't find him boring in the least  - but rather totally engrossing
> > > - the sheer quality of his work is a joy to hear.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > there is no doubt to the "quality of his work" but for me that does
> > not translate into interesting playing. Rather listen to Cherkassky,
> > for example, who does not have Z.s facility nor total command BUT
> > plays with imagination and vitality.
>
> > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Compare Zimerman with Cherkassky?.....hmmmm.
>
> You're not making a very strong case for yourself Arri.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

John,
I am not "comparing" them to each other..........Z. has a wonderful
mechanism with limited musical imagination. C. has a relatively
limited mechanism but is so musically creative.....
they are so different, but I would rather hear a few wrong notes, than
bland playing. This is just my opinion.
BTW- I never "make a strong case for myself", only for my favorites
like Volodos:-))))
AB
LarryLap
2009-04-10 17:30:20 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 9, 10:51 am, ***@att.net wrote:
> On Apr 8, 4:51 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 8, 4:07 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 8, 3:12 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 8, 2:38 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 6, 8:59 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> > > > > > Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs.  -  I'm totally blown away,
> > > > > > particularly with the performance of the PC #2.  WOW!   This is
> > > > > > superlative in every way.  A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> > > > > > the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> > > > > > this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> > > > > > time.
>
> > > > > > Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere.  Stunning,
> > > > > > drop-dead beautiful.  A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> > > > > > into this great recording.
>
> > > > > > (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> > > > > > totally convincing as #2).
>
> > > > > > Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> > > > > > second to none.
>
> > > > > I must disagree........ I find the playing a bit boring, lacks color
> > > > > and is dull IMO. Like TD describes Volodos:-)
>
> > > > > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan.  The recordings of his that I have
> > > > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > > > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > > > toughfulness.
>
> > > > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > > > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > > > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > > > refinement and mastery.
>
> > > > I don't find him boring in the least  - but rather totally engrossing
> > > > - the sheer quality of his work is a joy to hear.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > there is no doubt to the "quality of his work" but for me that does
> > > not translate into interesting playing. Rather listen to Cherkassky,
> > > for example, who does not have Z.s facility nor total command BUT
> > > plays with imagination and vitality.
>
> > > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Compare Zimerman with Cherkassky?.....hmmmm.
>
> > You're not making a very strong case for yourself Arri.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> John,
> I am not "comparing" them to each other..........Z. has a wonderful
> mechanism with limited musical imagination. C. has a relatively
> limited mechanism but is so musically creative.....
> they are so different, but I would rather hear a few wrong notes, than
> bland playing. This is just my opinion.
> BTW- I never "make a strong case for myself", only for my favorites
> like Volodos:-))))
> AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I am also surprised at the degree of positive response Zimerman's
second recordings of the Chopin Concertos has received here. I am
always been a strong admirer of Zimerman's playing, but was so deeply
disappointed by the these recordings that I have not been able to
bring myself to listen to them a second time. I was unable to
recognize in those recordings the wonderfully discrete and idiomatic
Chopin player of the first concerto recordings with Giulini, much less
the commanding master of Chopin style of Zimerman's recording of the
Waltzes and the miscellaneous pieces that appeared on his debut disc
on DG. I found the more recent concerto recording to be shockingly
heavy-handed and maladroit in the application of rubato and use of
extreme and unidiomatic variations in dynamic levels. I read that
Zimerman had drilled his band on every strand and filament of these
pieces, until he was satisfied that each phrase would be rendered
exactly as he thought it should. This caused me to be all the more
dismayed by the results. I guess I really must dig this set out and
make sure that my negative reaction was not the result of a lack of
seratonin in the part of my brain devoted to the works of Chopin.
a***@att.net
2009-04-11 23:53:28 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 10, 1:30 pm, LarryLap <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 9, 10:51 am, ***@att.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 8, 4:51 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 8, 4:07 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 8, 3:12 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 8, 2:38 pm, ***@att.net wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 6, 8:59 pm, JohnGavin <***@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > I'm a late comer to Zimerman's recording with the Polish Festival
> > > > > > > Orchestra of the 2 Chopin PCs.  -  I'm totally blown away,
> > > > > > > particularly with the performance of the PC #2.  WOW!   This is
> > > > > > > superlative in every way.  A revelation - the orchestra directed by
> > > > > > > the soloist uses rubato in a way that only a pianist usually does in
> > > > > > > this piece, and the result is like hearing the music for the first
> > > > > > > time.
>
> > > > > > > Zimerman's pianism in in the Michelangelian stratosphere.  Stunning,
> > > > > > > drop-dead beautiful.  A lot of meticulous and loving preperation went
> > > > > > > into this great recording.
>
> > > > > > > (The PC #1 is also on a high level, but I'm not yet sure if it is as
> > > > > > > totally convincing as #2).
>
> > > > > > > Anyone who doesn't know this recording must hear it - for me it is
> > > > > > > second to none.
>
> > > > > > I must disagree........ I find the playing a bit boring, lacks color
> > > > > > and is dull IMO. Like TD describes Volodos:-)
>
> > > > > > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > I'm fast becoming a Zimerman fan.  The recordings of his that I have
> > > > > so far are a real treat to listen to - even if one might interpret
> > > > > things differently, Zimerman always convinces me by his mastery and
> > > > > toughfulness.
>
> > > > > A while back Nic Hodges criticized Zimerman's Chopin Ballade #3.
> > > > > While it is very different (he adopts very broad tempos) IMO he
> > > > > carries his conception off to perfection by the power of his
> > > > > refinement and mastery.
>
> > > > > I don't find him boring in the least  - but rather totally engrossing
> > > > > - the sheer quality of his work is a joy to hear.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > there is no doubt to the "quality of his work" but for me that does
> > > > not translate into interesting playing. Rather listen to Cherkassky,
> > > > for example, who does not have Z.s facility nor total command BUT
> > > > plays with imagination and vitality.
>
> > > > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Compare Zimerman with Cherkassky?.....hmmmm.
>
> > > You're not making a very strong case for yourself Arri.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > John,
> > I am not "comparing" them to each other..........Z. has a wonderful
> > mechanism with limited musical imagination. C. has a relatively
> > limited mechanism but is so musically creative.....
> > they are so different, but I would rather hear a few wrong notes, than
> > bland playing. This is just my opinion.
> > BTW- I never "make a strong case for myself", only for my favorites
> > like Volodos:-))))
> > AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I am also surprised at the degree of positive response Zimerman's
> second recordings of the Chopin Concertos has received here.  I am
> always been a strong admirer of Zimerman's playing, but was so deeply
> disappointed by the these recordings that I have not been able to
> bring myself to listen to them a second time.  I was unable to
> recognize in those recordings the wonderfully discrete and idiomatic
> Chopin player of the first concerto recordings with Giulini, much less
> the commanding master of Chopin style of Zimerman's recording of the
> Waltzes and the miscellaneous pieces that appeared on his debut disc
> on DG.  I found the more recent concerto recording to be shockingly
> heavy-handed and maladroit in the application of rubato and use of
> extreme and unidiomatic variations in dynamic levels.  I read that
> Zimerman had drilled his band on every strand and filament of these
> pieces, until he was satisfied that each phrase would be rendered
> exactly as he thought it should.  This caused me to be all the more
> dismayed by the results.  I guess I really must dig this set out and
> make sure that my negative reaction was not the result of a lack of
> seratonin in the part of my brain devoted to the works of Chopin.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

my feelings are exactly like yours......heard them twice and that was
enuf. If music is all about beauty, then Z.s playing reflects little
of that. I suggest that all of the Z. lovers listen to the young Z.
play the Emperor concerto on youtube. Technically it is a masterful
peformance. every note is clearly struck. However, in the end it is
sterile playing, lacking in emotion and musical tension.

AB
jpjones
2009-04-11 21:38:18 UTC
Permalink
X-No-Archive: yes

On Apr 11, 5:25 pm, Steve Emerson <***@n-n-n-nospamsonic.net>
wrote:
> In article
> <dc56b489-c1eb-40e6-b42b-***@k2g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Rugby <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 10, 7:05 am, td <***@mac.com> wrote:
> > > In the end, however, it is not surprising that we hear a different
> > > Chopin in Zimmerman from that of Sofro, Cortot, and Rosenthal. Nobody
> > > plays like that today, thank God! That was then, this is now. Times
> > > have changed and we no longer tolerate such wilful distortions in our
> > > Chopin. Rubinstein cured us of all that nonsense.
>
> > There is room for much latitude in Chopin, and "distortions" are
> > always a controversial subject. I would not trade my Rosenthals nor my
> > Rubinsteins (whom Rosenthal called "that little clown"), but then I
> > was not at the Salle Pleyel in Paris. The real pity is we have no
> > recordings of Mikuli (who taught Rosenthal) or Jossefy . Did either
> > Mikuli or Jossefy ever comment on the Chopin playing of younger
> > Rosenthal, Rubinstein, Cortot, or were their dates too far apart ?
>
> Rosenthal also studied with Franz Liszt. Dedicatee of the Op 10 etudes.
> The line of descent from Chopin himself is very tight.
>
> As for the "wilful distortions in our Chopin," the "nonsense" Rubinstein
> cured us of --
>
> Here's how Hector Berlioz described the Chopin playing of a
> contemporary: "He found the reins of the beat irksome. For my liking he
> pushed rhythmic indepndence too far." The pianist in question was...
> Chopin.
>
> There's every reason to suppose that's how the man expected his work to
> be played.
>
> Be all that as it may, I suspect we'll have to do without the glorious
> rubatos found in Cortot, Rosenthal, and Sofronitsky in pianists to come.
>
> Not just because it is "old fashioned," but because the art probably
> becomes increasingly difficult to perfect as such masters and their
> predecessors become more distant. A Sofronitsky rubato can be a piece of
> uncanny genius that is unlikely to recur. But besides that, a rubato so
> pronounced would seem to obviously demand more skill and greater
> intellect than does a more metronomic approach. And now, who will impart
> that skill?
>
> I agree with Jones that young Blechaz to some extent reflects the
> tradition, and he's a wonderful player (and himself a Pole). More
> markedly, the tradition was often reflected in Fiorentino, a guy born
> just four years before Brendel. Moravec to some extent participates. So
> who knows.

Actually, I find Nelson Goerner to be the most complete and the most
mature sounding of the current crop of Chopinists. As far my
experience of his work goes, he's a complete pianist, not just a
Chopinist. Blechacz is still very young, and I have high hopes that he
will be a major player. Fiorentino, that's unique, no matter what he
played. The Schumann Fantasy that's on YouTube is incomparable. This,
from an old man!

I don't quite know who to compare Goerner to. Something of Lipatti but
with a voluptuousness and when necessary a force that Lipatti didn't
have (or didn't get recorded). Stupendous technique, of course.

jpj
Steve Emerson
2009-04-11 21:45:47 UTC
Permalink
In article
<8a32b118-c0d2-4361-9f4b-***@b1g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Actually, I find Nelson Goerner to be the most complete and the most
> mature sounding of the current crop of Chopinists. As far my
> experience of his work goes, he's a complete pianist, not just a
> Chopinist. Blechacz is still very young, and I have high hopes that he
> will be a major player. Fiorentino, that's unique, no matter what he
> played. The Schumann Fantasy that's on YouTube is incomparable. This,
> from an old man!

Well, you know, I was speaking of the art of the big rubato. Not making
any generalizations about particular crops of Chopinists.

> I don't quite know who to compare Goerner to. Something of Lipatti but
> with a voluptuousness and when necessary a force that Lipatti didn't
> have (or didn't get recorded). Stupendous technique, of course.

I'll have to hear more of Goerner. The sample Ballade on a Pleyel over
at the Polish site sounded great, and on his debut, all-Chopin disc, I
liked the Barcarolle. The rest of that CD was highly attractive a minute
or so at a time, with gorgeous sound, but over the stretch it induced a
strange combination of boredom and nervousness in this listener. Maybe
it'll grow on me, for now it seems a bit uptight and fidgety.

SE.
Rugby
2009-04-11 23:20:21 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 11, 4:38 pm, jpjones <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't quite know who to compare Goerner to. Something of Lipatti but
> with a voluptuousness and when necessary a force that Lipatti didn't
> have (or didn't get recorded). Stupendous technique, of course.

I share the approvals here of Goerner. IF memory serves, and the video
may still be available, at 2008 Verbier he gave a great reading of the
Janacek "1905 " Sonata and some Liszt Transcendentals. A pianist I do
follow; Blechacz' YT videos have not excited me to date.

Rugby
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