Discussion:
Pinnock's Well-Tempered Clavier and others
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Tatonik
2020-06-15 17:40:06 UTC
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Has anyone heard Trevor Pinnock's new recording of Bach's Well-Tempered
Clavier, Book I, and if so, any thoughts?

While we're at it, what other harpsichord recordings of these works are
notable? Book II as well.

Piano, too, if you're in the mood. I'd like to get an album on each
instrument. At the moment I have only one recording of WTC Book I, and
it disappoints me: Keith Jarrett on ECM. Sometimes I return to it,
thinking I should reassess with fresh ears, but I always come to the
same conclusion. It may be the drabbest, most careful playing I've ever
heard. It seems odd to say this of a jazz musician.

For Book II, I only have András Schiff's Decca album, which I like,
though occasionally I wonder if the playing is too pretty, too
italicized. How does it compare to his later recording?
Alex Brown
2020-06-15 18:27:01 UTC
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Post by Tatonik
Has anyone heard Trevor Pinnock's new recording of Bach's Well-Tempered
Clavier, Book I, and if so, any thoughts?
While we're at it, what other harpsichord recordings of these works are
notable?  Book II as well.
Piano, too, if you're in the mood.  I'd like to get an album on each
instrument.  At the moment I have only one recording of WTC Book I, and
it disappoints me: Keith Jarrett on ECM.  Sometimes I return to it,
thinking I should reassess with fresh ears, but I always come to the
same conclusion.  It may be the drabbest, most careful playing I've ever
heard.  It seems odd to say this of a jazz musician.
For Book II, I only have András Schiff's Decca album, which I like,
though occasionally I wonder if the playing is too pretty, too
italicized.  How does it compare to his later recording?
I think the late Kenneth Gilbert's 1983 harpsichord recording on
DG/Archiv still stands up well: sensitive, thoughtful playing on a great
sounding instrument, beautifully recorded. I haven't heard the new Pinnock.

For piano, there are lots of good recordings old and new. Maybe I like
Koroliov best: for me he has the committent of Gould but without the
oddities.

Talking of Gould, this video of him performing the E Major fugue from
Book 2 is amazing, in many ways:


--
- Alex Brown
number_six
2020-06-15 18:50:29 UTC
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Post by Tatonik
Has anyone heard Trevor Pinnock's new recording of Bach's Well-Tempered
Clavier, Book I, and if so, any thoughts?
While we're at it, what other harpsichord recordings of these works are
notable? Book II as well.
Piano, too, if you're in the mood. I'd like to get an album on each
instrument. At the moment I have only one recording of WTC Book I, and
it disappoints me: Keith Jarrett on ECM. Sometimes I return to it,
thinking I should reassess with fresh ears, but I always come to the
same conclusion. It may be the drabbest, most careful playing I've ever
heard. It seems odd to say this of a jazz musician.
For Book II, I only have András Schiff's Decca album, which I like,
though occasionally I wonder if the playing is too pretty, too
italicized. How does it compare to his later recording?
On harpsichord, I have Davitt Moroney on HM. I think it's good, but haven't compared lots of others.

Alex mentioned Gilbert. I have not heard his WTC, but based on the quality of the other Kenneth Gilbert cds I've heard, doubt you could go wrong with Gilbert, except perhaps on price.
Mandryka
2020-06-15 19:30:12 UTC
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Post by Tatonik
Has anyone heard Trevor Pinnock's new recording of Bach's Well-Tempered
Clavier, Book I, and if so, any thoughts?
While we're at it, what other harpsichord recordings of these works are
notable? Book II as well.
Piano, too, if you're in the mood. I'd like to get an album on each
instrument. At the moment I have only one recording of WTC Book I, and
it disappoints me: Keith Jarrett on ECM. Sometimes I return to it,
thinking I should reassess with fresh ears, but I always come to the
same conclusion. It may be the drabbest, most careful playing I've ever
heard. It seems odd to say this of a jazz musician.
For Book II, I only have András Schiff's Decca album, which I like,
though occasionally I wonder if the playing is too pretty, too
italicized. How does it compare to his later recording?
I have heard the Pinnock.

As far as notable harpsichord recordings of WTC is concerned, there are many and a list would probably be 20 or more. Just over the past couple of years there we've sen releases from Helene Fisch, Wolfgang Rubsam, Michel Kiener, Colin Booth, Frédérick Haas.
Frank Lekens
2020-06-17 13:25:25 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Post by Tatonik
Has anyone heard Trevor Pinnock's new recording of Bach's Well-Tempered
Clavier, Book I, and if so, any thoughts?
While we're at it, what other harpsichord recordings of these works are
notable? Book II as well.
Piano, too, if you're in the mood. I'd like to get an album on each
instrument. At the moment I have only one recording of WTC Book I, and
it disappoints me: Keith Jarrett on ECM. Sometimes I return to it,
thinking I should reassess with fresh ears, but I always come to the
same conclusion. It may be the drabbest, most careful playing I've ever
heard. It seems odd to say this of a jazz musician.
For Book II, I only have András Schiff's Decca album, which I like,
though occasionally I wonder if the playing is too pretty, too
italicized. How does it compare to his later recording?
I have heard the Pinnock.
As far as notable harpsichord recordings of WTC is concerned, there are many and a list would probably be 20 or more. Just over the past couple of years there we've sen releases from Helene Fisch, Wolfgang Rubsam, Michel Kiener, Colin Booth, Frédérick Haas.
Do people like Richard Egarr's? He also recorded booth books on harpsichord.

I'm not very familiar with harpsichord recordings. I do have and rather
like Ton Koopman's.


For piano versions, if all you know is Jarrett's, I'd at least give
Gould a listen, he's rather unique.

Also original are Feinberg (rather bad sound, unfortunately), Edwin
Fischer.
And maybe try Vladimir Feltsman, Pietro de Maria, Andrew Rangell,
Daniel-Ben Pienaar, Dina Ugorskaja. Sviatoslav Richter, maybe best the
*live* Innsbruck recordings. Or earlier live recordings of parts of the
books, like in the Kiev and Richter in Hungary box.
--
Frank Lekens

http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
https://franklekens.blogspot.nl/
Mandryka
2020-06-17 16:48:04 UTC
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Richard Egarr’s conception of the music is original, ai think anyone who’s serious about exploring the reception of WTC on record should hear it. No one else that I know approaches the rhythm and phrasing of the music like Egarr.
Post by Frank Lekens
Post by Mandryka
Post by Tatonik
Has anyone heard Trevor Pinnock's new recording of Bach's Well-Tempered
Clavier, Book I, and if so, any thoughts?
While we're at it, what other harpsichord recordings of these works are
notable? Book II as well.
Piano, too, if you're in the mood. I'd like to get an album on each
instrument. At the moment I have only one recording of WTC Book I, and
it disappoints me: Keith Jarrett on ECM. Sometimes I return to it,
thinking I should reassess with fresh ears, but I always come to the
same conclusion. It may be the drabbest, most careful playing I've ever
heard. It seems odd to say this of a jazz musician.
For Book II, I only have András Schiff's Decca album, which I like,
though occasionally I wonder if the playing is too pretty, too
italicized. How does it compare to his later recording?
I have heard the Pinnock.
As far as notable harpsichord recordings of WTC is concerned, there are many and a list would probably be 20 or more. Just over the past couple of years there we've sen releases from Helene Fisch, Wolfgang Rubsam, Michel Kiener, Colin Booth, Frédérick Haas.
Do people like Richard Egarr's? He also recorded booth books on harpsichord.
I'm not very familiar with harpsichord recordings. I do have and rather
like Ton Koopman's.
For piano versions, if all you know is Jarrett's, I'd at least give
Gould a listen, he's rather unique.
Also original are Feinberg (rather bad sound, unfortunately), Edwin
Fischer.
And maybe try Vladimir Feltsman, Pietro de Maria, Andrew Rangell,
Daniel-Ben Pienaar, Dina Ugorskaja. Sviatoslav Richter, maybe best the
*live* Innsbruck recordings. Or earlier live recordings of parts of the
books, like in the Kiev and Richter in Hungary box.
--
Frank Lekens
http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
https://franklekens.blogspot.nl/
Frank Lekens
2020-06-18 06:02:43 UTC
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Post by Mandryka
Post by Frank Lekens
Post by Mandryka
Post by Tatonik
Has anyone heard Trevor Pinnock's new recording of Bach's Well-Tempered
Clavier, Book I, and if so, any thoughts?
While we're at it, what other harpsichord recordings of these works are
notable? Book II as well.
Piano, too, if you're in the mood. I'd like to get an album on each
instrument. At the moment I have only one recording of WTC Book I, and
it disappoints me: Keith Jarrett on ECM. Sometimes I return to it,
thinking I should reassess with fresh ears, but I always come to the
same conclusion. It may be the drabbest, most careful playing I've ever
heard. It seems odd to say this of a jazz musician.
For Book II, I only have András Schiff's Decca album, which I like,
though occasionally I wonder if the playing is too pretty, too
italicized. How does it compare to his later recording?
I have heard the Pinnock.
As far as notable harpsichord recordings of WTC is concerned, there are many and a list would probably be 20 or more. Just over the past couple of years there we've sen releases from Helene Fisch, Wolfgang Rubsam, Michel Kiener, Colin Booth, Frédérick Haas.
Do people like Richard Egarr's? He also recorded booth books on harpsichord.
I'm not very familiar with harpsichord recordings. I do have and rather
like Ton Koopman's.
For piano versions, if all you know is Jarrett's, I'd at least give
Gould a listen, he's rather unique.
Also original are Feinberg (rather bad sound, unfortunately), Edwin
Fischer.
And maybe try Vladimir Feltsman, Pietro de Maria, Andrew Rangell,
Daniel-Ben Pienaar, Dina Ugorskaja. Sviatoslav Richter, maybe best the
*live* Innsbruck recordings. Or earlier live recordings of parts of the
books, like in the Kiev and Richter in Hungary box.
--
Richard Egarr’s conception of the music is original, ai think anyone
who’s serious about exploring the reception of WTC on record should
hear it. No one else that I know approaches the rhythm and phrasing of
the music like Egarr.
I rather liked his orchestral suites, so I can imagine. I'll give them a
try on Spotify.
--
Frank Lekens

http://fmlekens.home.xs4all.nl/
https://franklekens.blogspot.nl/
JohnGavin
2020-06-18 10:57:42 UTC
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Robert Edward Smith - Towerhill 2 LP Set Bk. 1
Anthony Newman - Columbia 2 LP Set Bk. 2

Both are available on EBay.
j***@gmail.com
2020-06-17 13:49:10 UTC
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I had no idea Pinnock was still making recordings, at least not as a keyboard performer. The last I have from is his excellent Partitas on Hanssler, which is 20 years old now. I see on his page that he has conducted chamber versions of Mahler and Bruckner! I'd like to check out his WTC, and hopefully he will Book II.

Other people mentioned Gilbert's (whom I just learned is recently deceased) WTC. It's a fine performance on a beautiful instrument. It's more an introvert performance, with particular attention to agogic accents, though I find he doesn't sufficiently distinguish the individual pieces, so they start sounding the same. My own reference WTC is Helmut Walcha's 2nd recording on DG.
b***@gmail.com
2020-06-17 17:01:45 UTC
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The Pinnock is a reissue.
Post by j***@gmail.com
I had no idea Pinnock was still making recordings
Gerard
2020-06-17 17:29:12 UTC
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wrote in message news:a80b7a86-108f-4739-94cf-***@googlegroups.com...

The Pinnock is a reissue.

---------------------------

I don't think so.
https://trevorpinnock.com/release-welltemperedclavier/
Lawrence Kart
2020-06-17 18:49:08 UTC
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Post by b***@gmail.com
The Pinnock is a reissue.
---------------------------
I don't think so.
https://trevorpinnock.com/release-welltemperedclavier/
Bradley Brookshire (harpsichord)
Lawrence Kart
2020-06-17 18:56:33 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Kart
Post by b***@gmail.com
The Pinnock is a reissue.
---------------------------
I don't think so.
https://trevorpinnock.com/release-welltemperedclavier/
Bradley Brookshire (harpsichord)
Oops -- I meant his Art of the Fugue.
Mandryka
2020-06-18 04:34:46 UTC
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People who rate Pinnock should know that in 2018 he released a recording dedicated to Louis Couperin.
Al Eisner
2020-06-18 21:47:29 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
I had no idea Pinnock was still making recordings, at least not as a keyboard performer. The last I have from is his excellent Partitas on Hanssler, which is 20 years old now. I see on his page that he has conducted chamber versions of Mahler and Bruckner! I'd like to check out his WTC, and hopefully he will Book II.
Other people mentioned Gilbert's (whom I just learned is recently deceased) WTC. It's a fine performance on a beautiful instrument. It's more an introvert performance, with particular attention to agogic accents, though I find he doesn't sufficiently distinguish the individual pieces, so they start sounding the same. My own reference WTC is Helmut Walcha's 2nd recording on DG.
I hope this isn't too much of a change of subject: speaking of Pinnock,his
Handel orchestral recordnings with the English Concert are part of the
current DG sale at Preso (11-CD set). I wanted to solicit opinions.
I have many of the works from other artists (Savall, Koopman, Manze, ...)

As to WTC, I've been generally happy with Richter (studio). There was a
discussion here years ago about one incarnation which had by far the best
recorded sound, and I followed that advice.
--
Al Eisner
c***@gmail.com
2020-06-18 23:03:31 UTC
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Sounds to me like you have a good handle on Handel.

Alan
Al Eisner
2020-06-19 01:26:26 UTC
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Post by c***@gmail.com
Sounds to me like you have a good handle on Handel.
Alan
Does Steve H. ever give out negative numbers of marks?
--
Al Eisner
Raymond Hall
2020-06-19 03:49:53 UTC
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Post by Al Eisner
I hope this isn't too much of a change of subject: speaking of Pinnock,his
Handel orchestral recordnings with the English Concert are part of the
current DG sale at Preso (11-CD set). I wanted to solicit opinions.
I have many of the works from other artists (Savall, Koopman, Manze, ...)
As to WTC, I've been generally happy with Richter (studio). There was a
discussion here years ago about one incarnation which had by far the best
recorded sound, and I followed that advice.
--
Al Eisner
I have Pinnock in the orchestral suites, Brandenburgs, and I find them very spick and span, in a faultless generic way, and probably worth it at bargain price. However I don't find anything truly distinctive in the readings. For that, I would go elsewhere.

My preference would be ASMF, Leppard, and more especially Karl Richter for this music, modern instruments and all. I am neither HIP nor non-HIP by preference.

Ray Hall, Taree
Gerard
2020-06-19 05:19:59 UTC
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Post by Al Eisner
I hope this isn't too much of a change of subject: speaking of Pinnock,his
Handel orchestral recordnings with the English Concert are part of the
current DG sale at Preso (11-CD set). I wanted to solicit opinions.
I have many of the works from other artists (Savall, Koopman, Manze, ...)
As to WTC, I've been generally happy with Richter (studio). There was a
discussion here years ago about one incarnation which had by far the best
recorded sound, and I followed that advice.
--
Al Eisner
I have Pinnock in the orchestral suites, Brandenburgs, and I find them very
spick and span, in a faultless generic way, and probably worth it at bargain
price. However I don't find anything truly distinctive in the readings. For
that, I would go elsewhere.

---------------------------

I agree.
When these recordings came on LP I liked them quite much, much more than
Marriner e.g. Then I was favoring HIP recordings - and I still do. Like the
organ concerti with Chorzempa and Schröder. But for modern instrument
recordings of the concerti grossi I like Iona Brown's recordings (more then
Leppard's and others).
Al Eisner
2020-06-20 06:23:36 UTC
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Post by Raymond Hall
Post by Al Eisner
I hope this isn't too much of a change of subject: speaking of Pinnock,his
Handel orchestral recordnings with the English Concert are part of the
current DG sale at Preso (11-CD set). I wanted to solicit opinions.
I have many of the works from other artists (Savall, Koopman, Manze, ...)
As to WTC, I've been generally happy with Richter (studio). There was a
discussion here years ago about one incarnation which had by far the best
recorded sound, and I followed that advice.
--
Al Eisner
I have Pinnock in the orchestral suites, Brandenburgs, and I find them very spick and span, in a faultless generic way, and probably worth it at bargain price. However I don't find anything truly distinctive in the readings. For that, I would go elsewhere.
And you have a similar reaction to hos Handel as to his Bach?
Post by Raymond Hall
My preference would be ASMF, Leppard, and more especially Karl Richter for this music, modern instruments and all. I am neither HIP nor non-HIP by preference.
Ray Hall, Taree
--
Al Eisner
Raymond Hall
2020-06-20 07:43:36 UTC
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Post by Al Eisner
Post by Raymond Hall
Post by Al Eisner
I hope this isn't too much of a change of subject: speaking of Pinnock,his
Handel orchestral recordnings with the English Concert are part of the
current DG sale at Preso (11-CD set). I wanted to solicit opinions.
I have many of the works from other artists (Savall, Koopman, Manze, ...)
As to WTC, I've been generally happy with Richter (studio). There was a
discussion here years ago about one incarnation which had by far the best
recorded sound, and I followed that advice.
--
Al Eisner
I have Pinnock in the orchestral suites, Brandenburgs, and I find them very spick and span, in a faultless generic way, and probably worth it at bargain price. However I don't find anything truly distinctive in the readings. For that, I would go elsewhere.
And you have a similar reaction to hos Handel as to his Bach?
Post by Raymond Hall
My preference would be ASMF, Leppard, and more especially Karl Richter for this music, modern instruments and all. I am neither HIP nor non-HIP by preference.
Ray Hall, Taree
--
Al Eisner
I don't believe I have any Handel by Pinnock. I have ASMF/Iona Brown for the suites, Op.3 and Marriner for Op.6, and by a pot pourri of other conductors for any other Handel, Water Music, Fireworks etc.

Just discovered that I DO have Pinnock's Organ Concertos by Handel with Simon Preston. I can't recall being over-wowed or it would have been easier to remember. I should add that many do admire Pinnock, but for me what I do have doesn't seem to really rise above a normal expectation. I was expecting more, but it didn't happen. I do like Tafelmusic, Weil, Lamon, for a much of this period, and almost all of their Haydn, symphonies and Masses. Livelier and nicer on my ears.

I find myself going back more and more to the likes of Karl Richter, especially for Bach.

Ray Hall, Taree
Johannes Roehl
2020-06-20 13:22:02 UTC
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Roughly, I'd say Tafelmusik is a similar approach I find somewhat more successful than Pinnock. If one has the former one wouldn't need the latter, although the former have not recorded all organ concerti and op.6. Among more recent recordings (Pinnocks Handel are >30 years old), one should consider Egarr for organ + op.3 and Manze for op.6 among the "anglophone HIP" tradition.
Al Eisner
2020-06-20 20:17:17 UTC
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Post by Johannes Roehl
Roughly, I'd say Tafelmusik is a similar approach I find somewhat more successful than Pinnock. If one has the former one wouldn't need the latter, although the former have not recorded all organ concerti and op.6. Among more recent recordings (Pinnocks Handel are >30 years old), one should consider Egarr for organ + op.3 and Manze for op.6 among the "anglophone HIP" tradition.
I have the latter in a 4-CD Harmonia Mundi set. While I'm happy with
the Op. 3 and 6, the problem I have with the organ concerti is not
Egarr's playing, but the weakness of the chosen instrument(s). The
works are out of balance to my taste. So I acquired Koopman's set
(both Op. 4 and 7) with Amsterdam Baroque, and am fully satisfied
with it. I'll also sample Chorzempa.

My question about Pinnock was motivated by possible interest
in having alternative versions of these works, plus recordings of
some works (such as the oboe concerti) which would be new - at low
sale price. When Christopher Webber was here he was enthusiastic about
Pinnock, but the consensus of replies received does not share in that.
It is not an urgent need on my part - lots of other stuff to hear!
--
Al Eisner
Raymond Hall
2020-06-20 23:42:31 UTC
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I have the latter in a 4-CD Harmonia Mundi set.  While I'm happy with 
the Op. 3 and 6, the problem I have with the organ concerti is not 
Egarr's playing, but the weakness of the chosen instrument(s).  The 
works are out of balance to my taste.  So I acquired Koopman's set 
(both Op. 4 and 7) with Amsterdam Baroque, and am fully satisfied 
with it.  I'll also sample Chorzempa

I rembember being disapointed with the organ sound on the Pinnock/Preston Handel. The organ sounded too small, and thin, to my taste.

Ray Hall, Taree

Alex Brown
2020-06-19 11:55:19 UTC
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Post by Al Eisner
speaking of
Pinnock,his Handel orchestral recordnings with the English Concert are
part of the
current DG sale at Preso (11-CD set).
The price for the download of that is a steal!
--
- Alex Brown
James Goodzeit
2020-06-19 14:28:35 UTC
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Post by Al Eisner
Post by j***@gmail.com
I had no idea Pinnock was still making recordings, at least not as a keyboard performer. The last I have from is his excellent Partitas on Hanssler, which is 20 years old now. I see on his page that he has conducted chamber versions of Mahler and Bruckner! I'd like to check out his WTC, and hopefully he will Book II.
Other people mentioned Gilbert's (whom I just learned is recently deceased) WTC. It's a fine performance on a beautiful instrument. It's more an introvert performance, with particular attention to agogic accents, though I find he doesn't sufficiently distinguish the individual pieces, so they start sounding the same. My own reference WTC is Helmut Walcha's 2nd recording on DG.
I hope this isn't too much of a change of subject: speaking of Pinnock,his
Handel orchestral recordnings with the English Concert are part of the
current DG sale at Preso (11-CD set). I wanted to solicit opinions.
I have many of the works from other artists (Savall, Koopman, Manze, ...)
As to WTC, I've been generally happy with Richter (studio). There was a
discussion here years ago about one incarnation which had by far the best
recorded sound, and I followed that advice.
--
Al Eisner
I have the earlier 6 disc set (concerti grossi opp 3&6, water music, fireworks, alexander's feast) which I assume is an earlier incarnation of the 11 disc set. I would agree with the others who characterized it as "spic and span". They are lovely performances certainly worth owning, but aren't my first choice. For Op. 6, there's Il Giardino Armonico, and the Organ Concerti, there's Harnoncourt/Tachezi as my go to choice.
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