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Salonen to SF
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m***@gmail.com
2018-12-05 21:18:44 UTC
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In my daydreams of wishing for more exciting local artistry than Muti (sorry, I'm not into Verdi, and I don't think Muti has improved much over time, even if the locals have reqarded the orchestra with good ticket sales) I often wondered if the CSO would pursue Salonen when Muti leaves. He's been a regular here since forever, and I've enjoyed the two concerts of his that I attended, though his standard repetoire has always been fairly un-German.

I do think the SFSO is a pretty good fit for him- could be an exciting partnership.

Back to daydreaming.
Tatonik
2018-12-05 22:24:38 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
In my daydreams of wishing for more exciting local artistry than Muti
(sorry, I'm not into Verdi, and I don't think Muti has improved much over
time, even if the locals have reqarded the orchestra with good ticket
sales) I often wondered if the CSO would pursue Salonen when Muti leaves.
He's been a regular here since forever, and I've enjoyed the two concerts
of his that I attended, though his standard repetoire has always been
fairly un-German.
I can't say I'm clamoring for more Verdi, either. Who else other than
Salonen might you dream of directing the CSO?

Is it my imagination, or have new CSO recordings practically dropped off
the map? I don't keep close track of these things, admittedly. I know
the CSO has its own recording label now but it seems to be releasing
only about one album a year. Or is one album a year pretty good for an
orchestra?

Maybe the problem is that I'm not into the repertoire they're recording.

One thing I dream about is the CSO having a budget to record whatever it
wants whenever it wants in a near ideal acoustic, live or at studio
session. Orchestra Hall doesn't seem to be the ideal venue. Some of
the older recordings were made in Medinah Temple, but I gather that has
been chopped up into retail space.

I wonder what the CSO would sound like in the Auditorium Theater. I've
never been in it but have been told it has excellent acoustics.

Or, as long as we're daydreaming, how about a hall built from scratch.
p***@yahoo.com
2018-12-06 02:02:46 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
In my daydreams of wishing for more exciting local artistry than Muti (sorry, I'm not into Verdi, and I don't think Muti has improved much over time, even if the locals have reqarded the orchestra with good ticket sales) I often wondered if the CSO would pursue Salonen when Muti leaves. He's been a regular here since forever, and I've enjoyed the two concerts of his that I attended, though his standard repetoire has always been fairly un-German.
I do think the SFSO is a pretty good fit for him- could be an exciting partnership.
Back to daydreaming.
I hear you on Muti. I don't regard his tenure here in Philadelphia as one of the Orchestra's high points.

As far as the CSO goes, I've had a strong feeling for a while that Honeck will replace Muti, and their current contracts expire either at the same time or within a year of each other.

I suspect Salonen decided during his Los Angeles years that when it comes to the U.S., he is a West Coast guy, culturally speaking.
Oscar
2018-12-06 03:12:53 UTC
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Salonen is a beautiful person who enjoys being around beautiful persons. San Francisco is the most beautiful city in North America. California just elected the most beautiful progressive politician since Obama to be its next governor (Gavin Newsom, with four adorable, beautiful children). And its junior senator (Kamala Harris) in 2014 was referred to by self-same beautiful President as the “best-looking” Attorney General in the United States. So you can see where I’m going with this.
g***@gmail.com
2018-12-06 03:24:33 UTC
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Post by Oscar
Salonen is a beautiful person who enjoys being around beautiful persons. San Francisco is the most beautiful city in North America. California just elected the most beautiful progressive politician since Obama to be its next governor (Gavin Newsom, with four adorable, beautiful children). And its junior senator (Kamala Harris) in 2014 was referred to by self-same beautiful President as the “best-looking” Attorney General in the United States. So you can see where I’m going with this.
And would all the people who are being forced to leave that area because they can no longer afford to live there agree with you?:

- In much of urban California, historically middle-class professionals—firefighters, homebuilders, young lawyers and countless others lower down the economic food chain—can no longer afford to buy homes because they simply can’t compete in their local real estate markets.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90207566/how-our-budding-tech-utopia-is-setting-the-stage-for-a-working-class-dystopia
g***@gmail.com
2018-12-06 03:25:34 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Oscar
Salonen is a beautiful person who enjoys being around beautiful persons. San Francisco is the most beautiful city in North America. California just elected the most beautiful progressive politician since Obama to be its next governor (Gavin Newsom, with four adorable, beautiful children). And its junior senator (Kamala Harris) in 2014 was referred to by self-same beautiful President as the “best-looking” Attorney General in the United States. So you can see where I’m going with this.
- In much of urban California, historically middle-class professionals—firefighters, homebuilders, young lawyers and countless others lower down the economic food chain—can no longer afford to buy homes because they simply can’t compete in their local real estate markets.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90207566/how-our-budding-tech-utopia-is-setting-the-stage-for-a-working-class-dystopia
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.classical.recordings/mTBryaOtpGk%5B1-25%5D
dk
2018-12-07 05:03:01 UTC
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Post by Oscar
Salonen is a beautiful person who enjoys being around
beautiful persons. San Francisco is the most beautiful
city in North America. California just elected the most
beautiful progressive politician since Obama to be its
next governor (Gavin Newsom, with four adorable, beautiful
children). And its junior senator (Kamala Harris) in 2014
was referred to by self-same beautiful President as the
“best-looking” Attorney General in the United States.
So you can see where I’m going with this.
Nuts! ;-)

dk
m***@gmail.com
2018-12-06 17:57:25 UTC
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Post by p***@yahoo.com
As far as the CSO goes, I've had a strong feeling for a while that Honeck will replace Muti, and their current contracts expire either at the same time or within a year of each other.
I'd be quite happy with that, but things rarely work out the way I wish. The CSO has the money and administration to seek the biggest fish- that's what they got with Haitink, and then Muti. Honeck seems awfully young by comparison.
p***@yahoo.com
2018-12-06 18:04:41 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by p***@yahoo.com
As far as the CSO goes, I've had a strong feeling for a while that Honeck will replace Muti, and their current contracts expire either at the same time or within a year of each other.
I'd be quite happy with that, but things rarely work out the way I wish. The CSO has the money and administration to seek the biggest fish- that's what they got with Haitink, and then Muti. Honeck seems awfully young by comparison.
He's 60, and I would say at the top of his game. No, he doesn't have quite the gravitas of Muti or Haitink when they were hired by the CSO, but I can't think of anyone better today in the 19th and early 20th century standard repertoire. The only drawback would be his conservative programming, and that's only a drawback to people who don't like conservative programming.

Is there anyone out there today that would be more in the Haitink/Muti mold (older with a very longstanding world-wide reputaton)? Maybe Chailly (65, but he's been working with the top orchestras in the world for a very long time), but I don't think he's conducted in Chicago for many years.

You could be right. I don't have any insight into the thinking of the CSO decision-makers. But IMO, they couldn't do better than Honeck.
m***@gmail.com
2018-12-07 02:44:23 UTC
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Post by p***@yahoo.com
I don't have any insight into the thinking of the CSO decision-makers. But IMO, they couldn't do better than Honeck.
As it happens I just got an order in from ClassicSelect and I'm watching a DVD of the Verbier Festival Orchestra, a split bill with Dutoit and Honeck. I hadn't realized it, but I'd never seen Dutoit conduct. Wow- talk about manly flailing- big gestures, big, bossy attitude, and almost no direct connection with what the orchestra plays. Then switch to Honeck and there's no doubt he's getting exactly what he wants out of them. It's good stuff- the first movement come to an intense climax. I think Honeck is, if anything, underrated.

I'd be gleeful if Honeck took over here, but on the side of actual recordings, the CSO's sporadic CD releases under Muti pale compare to what we get out of Amsterdam (where there's an opening, if I'm not mistaken) and Berlin, and that's a shame. I really wish they'd get more recordings out there in physical form so that those of us who can't afford regular ticket-buying could hear more. American orchestras are simply not playing the same game as those in London and Europe- I hear more from the LPO and LSO in any given year because they have product, and all the CSO has is their "radio" on their website. Hell, I probably hear more out of Oslo. And that may not change. Where does Honeck want to be?
p***@yahoo.com
2018-12-07 02:51:43 UTC
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I'd be gleeful if Honeck took over here, but on the side of actual recordings, the CSO's sporadic CD releases under Muti pale compare to what we get out of Amsterdam (where there's an opening, if I'm not mistaken) and Berlin, and that's a shame. I really wish they'd get more recordings out there in physical form so that those of us who can't afford regular ticket-buying could hear more. American orchestras are simply not playing the same game as those in London and Europe- I hear more from the LPO and LSO in any given year because they have product, and all the CSO has is their "radio" on their website. Hell, I probably hear more out of Oslo. And that may not change. Where does Honeck want to be? >>>>
From what I've read, it costs the major labels a lot more to record the big-name American orchestras than it does the top European orchestras.

As for Honeck, he and Pittsburgh have actually made a decent number of recordings that have been released on CD, and they've generally received rave reviews. I don't know if he'd get to take that recording contract with him to Chicago and have the same recording arrangement there if he were to succeed Muti.
j***@gmail.com
2018-12-07 15:32:11 UTC
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Salonen's modern music credentials are a bit bogus, however much he might name-drop Boulez as having been a personal friend.

EPS is what Harry Birtwistle used to call 'the acceptable face of modern music' ( I think HB said that about Lutoslawski who was leagues ahead of EPS).

EPS' music to my ears is very noodley and thin.

Jonathan Dunsby
m***@gmail.com
2018-12-07 16:16:22 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
Salonen's modern music credentials are a bit bogus, however much he might name-drop Boulez as having been a personal friend.
EPS is what Harry Birtwistle used to call 'the acceptable face of modern music' ( I think HB said that about Lutoslawski who was leagues ahead of EPS).
EPS' music to my ears is very noodley and thin.
All quite possible. Nonetheless, I've enjoyed his pieces in concert.
Ed Presson
2018-12-07 23:51:54 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
Salonen's modern music credentials are a bit bogus, however much he might
name-drop Boulez as having been a personal friend.
EPS is what Harry Birtwistle used to call 'the acceptable face of modern
music' ( I think HB said that about Lutoslawski who was leagues ahead of
EPS).
EPS' music to my ears is very noodley and thin.
All quite possible. Nonetheless, I've enjoyed his pieces in concert.
I haven't heard his music in concert, but I've enjoyed recordings of his
music (especially from the last 15 years).
Color me shallow.

Ed Presson
dk
2018-12-07 17:21:24 UTC
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Post by j***@gmail.com
Salonen's modern music credentials are a bit
bogus, however much he might name-drop Boulez
as having been a personal friend.
EPS is what Harry Birtwistle used to call 'the
acceptable face of modern music' ( I think HB
said that about Lutoslawski who was leagues
ahead of EPS).
EPS' music to my ears is very noodley and thin.
I am ready to sign a notarized affidavit EPS
will drive the SFSO into bankruptcy! Clearly
the board that hired him does not understand
the SFSO's audience!

dk
Oscar
2018-12-07 17:24:17 UTC
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EPS conducted the finest (big-boned) Beethoven Symphony No.3 I’ve heard, at WDCH in LA maybe 5 years ago. Fantastic.
dk
2018-12-07 17:31:11 UTC
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Post by Oscar
EPS conducted the finest (big-boned) Beethoven
Symphony No.3 I’ve heard, at WDCH in LA maybe 5
years ago. Fantastic.
Then he should definitely keep out of SF! ;-)

dk
S***@aol.com
2018-12-11 02:52:13 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by j***@gmail.com
Salonen's modern music credentials are a bit
bogus, however much he might name-drop Boulez
as having been a personal friend.
EPS is what Harry Birtwistle used to call 'the
acceptable face of modern music' ( I think HB
said that about Lutoslawski who was leagues
ahead of EPS).
EPS' music to my ears is very noodley and thin.
I am ready to sign a notarized affidavit EPS
will drive the SFSO into bankruptcy! Clearly
the board that hired him does not understand
the SFSO's audience!
dk
yeah of course no one there understands the audience at all. Certainly not the way you do from where ever you live. Salonen was a great choice and the City and the symphony's patrons will love him. If you want to take bets on how he impacts attendance I am happy to take your money
dk
2018-12-14 08:34:37 UTC
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Post by S***@aol.com
Post by dk
Post by j***@gmail.com
Salonen's modern music credentials are a bit
bogus, however much he might name-drop Boulez
as having been a personal friend.
EPS is what Harry Birtwistle used to call 'the
acceptable face of modern music' ( I think HB
said that about Lutoslawski who was leagues
ahead of EPS).
EPS' music to my ears is very noodley and thin.
I am ready to sign a notarized affidavit EPS
will drive the SFSO into bankruptcy! Clearly
the board that hired him does not understand
the SFSO's audience!
yeah of course no one there understands the
audience at all. Certainly not the way you do
from where ever you live.
?!? I live 40 minutes from Davies Symphony Hall!
Post by S***@aol.com
Salonen was a great choice and the City
and the symphony's patrons will love him.
Not after MTT. You'd be surprised how much
San Franciscans dislike foreign conductors.
Post by S***@aol.com
If you want to take bets on how he impacts
attendance I am happy to take your money
There is no attendance "problem" with the
SFSO. The parking garage fills up every
concert! ;-)

dk
Randy Lane
2018-12-14 16:18:12 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by S***@aol.com
Post by dk
Post by j***@gmail.com
Salonen's modern music credentials are a bit
bogus, however much he might name-drop Boulez
as having been a personal friend.
EPS is what Harry Birtwistle used to call 'the
acceptable face of modern music' ( I think HB
said that about Lutoslawski who was leagues
ahead of EPS).
EPS' music to my ears is very noodley and thin.
I am ready to sign a notarized affidavit EPS
will drive the SFSO into bankruptcy! Clearly
the board that hired him does not understand
the SFSO's audience!
yeah of course no one there understands the
audience at all. Certainly not the way you do
from where ever you live.
?!? I live 40 minutes from Davies Symphony Hall!
Post by S***@aol.com
Salonen was a great choice and the City
and the symphony's patrons will love him.
Not after MTT. You'd be surprised how much
San Franciscans dislike foreign conductors.
Post by S***@aol.com
If you want to take bets on how he impacts
attendance I am happy to take your money
There is no attendance "problem" with the
SFSO. The parking garage fills up every
concert! ;-)
dk
Agree with you about the dislike of foreign conductors in SF.

Which is a shame.

Herbert Blomstedt was a long overdue musical blessing to SFSO but was not as universally esteemed as he should have been. Had Fritz Reiner come to SFSO and the same accomplishments he had in Chicago he would likely have been treated a lot like Blomstedt was.

Edo de Waart wrongly suffered undue criticism too, though his musical achievements never equalled Blomstedt's IMHO.
What of Ozawa? - well, I'll be polite and end the discussion with Edo de Waart.

I was not of age when Monteux and Krips were the SFSO leaders - were they treated better?
dk
2018-12-15 18:18:11 UTC
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Post by Randy Lane
Post by dk
Post by S***@aol.com
Post by dk
Post by j***@gmail.com
Salonen's modern music credentials are a bit
bogus, however much he might name-drop Boulez
as having been a personal friend.
EPS is what Harry Birtwistle used to call 'the
acceptable face of modern music' ( I think HB
said that about Lutoslawski who was leagues
ahead of EPS).
EPS' music to my ears is very noodley and thin.
I am ready to sign a notarized affidavit EPS
will drive the SFSO into bankruptcy! Clearly
the board that hired him does not understand
the SFSO's audience!
yeah of course no one there understands the
audience at all. Certainly not the way you do
from where ever you live.
?!? I live 40 minutes from Davies Symphony Hall!
Post by S***@aol.com
Salonen was a great choice and the City
and the symphony's patrons will love him.
Not after MTT. You'd be surprised how much
San Franciscans dislike foreign conductors.
Post by S***@aol.com
If you want to take bets on how he impacts
attendance I am happy to take your money
There is no attendance "problem" with the
SFSO. The parking garage fills up every
concert! ;-)
I was not of age when Monteux and Krips were
the SFSO leaders - were they treated better?
No.

dk
Herman
2018-12-15 18:37:08 UTC
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It's like reading Slipped DIsc.

Everything's going to hell in a handbag etc.

S***@aol.com
2018-12-14 17:20:17 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by S***@aol.com
Post by dk
Post by j***@gmail.com
Salonen's modern music credentials are a bit
bogus, however much he might name-drop Boulez
as having been a personal friend.
EPS is what Harry Birtwistle used to call 'the
acceptable face of modern music' ( I think HB
said that about Lutoslawski who was leagues
ahead of EPS).
EPS' music to my ears is very noodley and thin.
I am ready to sign a notarized affidavit EPS
will drive the SFSO into bankruptcy! Clearly
the board that hired him does not understand
the SFSO's audience!
yeah of course no one there understands the
audience at all. Certainly not the way you do
from where ever you live.
?!? I live 40 minutes from Davies Symphony Hall!
I wasn't speaking geogrphically. Mentally you seem to live in your own little world far away from the actual realities of the SFSO.
Post by dk
Post by S***@aol.com
Salonen was a great choice and the City
and the symphony's patrons will love him.
Not after MTT. You'd be surprised how much
San Franciscans dislike foreign conductors.
He's a great choice after MTT. He will be much loved in San Francisco.
Post by dk
Post by S***@aol.com
If you want to take bets on how he impacts
attendance I am happy to take your money
There is no attendance "problem" with the
SFSO. The parking garage fills up every
concert! ;-)
You predicted bankruptcy with this appointment. Want to make a wager on that prediction?
dk
2018-12-15 18:16:45 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by S***@aol.com
Post by dk
Post by j***@gmail.com
Salonen's modern music credentials are a bit
bogus, however much he might name-drop Boulez
as having been a personal friend.
EPS is what Harry Birtwistle used to call 'the
acceptable face of modern music' ( I think HB
said that about Lutoslawski who was leagues
ahead of EPS).
EPS' music to my ears is very noodley and thin.
I am ready to sign a notarized affidavit EPS
will drive the SFSO into bankruptcy! Clearly
the board that hired him does not understand
the SFSO's audience!
yeah of course no one there understands the
audience at all. Certainly not the way you do
from where ever you live.
?!? I live 40 minutes from Davies Symphony Hall!
I wasn't speaking geographically. Mentally you
seem to live in your own little world far away
from the actual realities of the SFSO.
Notwithstanding my subscription and my
regular attendance?!? Boy, what chutzpah!

Let me assure you that over the past few
years the orchestras in Singapore, Shanghai
and Hong Kong have been much better than
the SFSO and are still improving!

When I hear from the SFSO the sound one
hears from a top tier European or East
Asian orchestra I will let everyone know!
EPS is not likely to make that happen.
He didn't pull this off in LA, what
makes anyone think he can pull it
off in SF ?!?

dk
dk
2018-12-15 18:23:57 UTC
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Post by S***@aol.com
Post by dk
Post by S***@aol.com
If you want to take bets on how he impacts
attendance I am happy to take your money
There is no attendance "problem" with the
SFSO. The parking garage fills up every
concert! ;-)
You predicted bankruptcy with this appointment.
Want to make a wager on that prediction?
I am not predicting bankruptcy, only continuing
and worsening mediocrity, and continued financial
problems. There are sufficiently many rich donors
in SF to prevent a complete financial collapse.

MTT was instrumental in helping the SFSO reach a
reasonable level of financial stability, even
though he didn't really do anything to improve
the orchestra. His entire tenure has been one
long vacation.

dk
Herman
2018-12-08 07:57:33 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
I do think the SFSO is a pretty good fit for him- could be an exciting partnership.
It's a little surprising ESP is back to full time conducting, in a place that I regard as rather conservative, musically (this may be what DK is alluding to), but then, on the other hand, ESP as a conductor is not really that alien to performing 19th classics - on the contrary. So it may be a great fit.
dk
2018-12-08 08:18:01 UTC
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Post by Herman
Post by m***@gmail.com
I do think the SFSO is a pretty good fit for
him- could be an exciting partnership.
It's a little surprising ESP is back to full time
conducting, in a place that I regard as rather
conservative, musically (this may be what DK
is alluding to),
You are reading my mind! Not only
conservative, but also superficial! ;-)

dk
Herman
2018-12-08 09:08:07 UTC
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Post by dk
You are reading my mind! Not only
conservative, but also superficial! ;-)
okay, but isn't that just the nature of symphony halls audiences everywhere. The conductor and soloist gossip, the who's who in the seats.

If you want a higher commitment to the music as an art form you gotta go to chamber music.
dk
2018-12-08 18:44:54 UTC
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Post by Herman
Post by dk
You are reading my mind! Not only
conservative, but also superficial! ;-)
okay, but isn't that just the nature of
symphony halls audiences everywhere.
No, definitely not! I can reassure you
the audiences in San Francisco and in
Munich are very different!
Post by Herman
The conductor and soloist gossip,
San Francisco specializes in this!
Post by Herman
the who's who in the seats.
Never heard anyone talk about me! ;-)
Post by Herman
If you want a higher commitment
to the music as an art form you
gotta go to chamber music.
I would, if I could afford to move
to Europe. The US West Coast is a
cultural and musical wasteland.

dk
Ricardo Jimenez
2018-12-08 19:54:27 UTC
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Post by dk
Post by Herman
Post by dk
You are reading my mind! Not only
conservative, but also superficial! ;-)
okay, but isn't that just the nature of
symphony halls audiences everywhere.
No, definitely not! I can reassure you
the audiences in San Francisco and in
Munich are very different!
Post by Herman
The conductor and soloist gossip,
San Francisco specializes in this!
Post by Herman
the who's who in the seats.
Never heard anyone talk about me! ;-)
Post by Herman
If you want a higher commitment
to the music as an art form you
gotta go to chamber music.
I would, if I could afford to move
to Europe. The US West Coast is a
cultural and musical wasteland.
dk
I don't know the current situation since it has been 50 years since I
lived there. But there used to be plenty of chamber music at both
Berkeley (Herz Hall) and UCLA (Royce Hall) and I was a regular at both
venues.
Oscar
2018-12-08 23:28:56 UTC
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I think the classical/serious/art music scene in Los Angeles is very vibrant, strong and _fun_. So I respectfully disagree with DK, who may just need a vacay down to L.A.
dk
2018-12-09 22:01:47 UTC
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Post by Oscar
I think the classical/serious/art music scene in
Los Angeles is very vibrant, strong and _fun_. So
I respectfully disagree with DK, who may just need
a vacay down to L.A.
?!? I stated no opinions about LA, only about SF!

Otherwise, the drive is too long to make it worth
the detour. One can land in Europe for only a few
more hours, why bother with SoCal?

dk
Lawrence Chalmers
2018-12-09 02:28:48 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
In my daydreams of wishing for more exciting local artistry than Muti (sorry, I'm not into Verdi, and I don't think Muti has improved much over time, even if the locals have reqarded the orchestra with good ticket sales) I often wondered if the CSO would pursue Salonen when Muti leaves. He's been a regular here since forever, and I've enjoyed the two concerts of his that I attended, though his standard repetoire has always been fairly un-German.
I do think the SFSO is a pretty good fit for him- could be an exciting partnership.
I am very optimistic about EPS. I have a few of his recordings and have heard a lot on YT. Being a San Franciscan and a symphony patron for the past 20 years I personally disagree with SF being a "cultural wasteland" but I've learned to not care what dk or anyone else in this group thinks. Having grown up in Chicago with Reiner and Martinon I thought I'd be spoiled when I moved here. DE Waart, Blomstedt, and MTT have more than satisfied me in terms of performance and programming. And i even prefer the live acoustic at Davies Hall to the Chicago hall. The recordings are pretty good too IMO. Anyway
we'll soon find out what's next for us.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Back to daydreaming.
Herman
2018-12-09 07:53:34 UTC
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there are two major string quartets based in the Bay Area, the Kronos and the Alexander, and several younger groups, so there is stuff happening in the chamber music scene, too. You just need to be willing to go out.
dk
2018-12-09 22:05:18 UTC
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Post by Herman
there are two major string quartets based in
the Bay Area, the Kronos and the Alexander,
"major" is in the eyes of the beholder. I would
not consider either of them competitive with the
best.
Post by Herman
and several younger groups, so there is stuff
happening in the chamber music scene, too.
"stuff happening" is plebeian, vulgar language! ;-)
Post by Herman
You just need to be willing to go out.
I am always willing to go out for good dumplings,
sushi, and chocolate -- and I do all the time ! ;-)

dk
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