Discussion:
Wagner quote in Bruckner?
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boombox
2007-08-25 22:08:32 UTC
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I recently heard someone claim that Bruckner's 9th contains quotes
from Parsifal. When asked what and where, he would only say (in a
very condescending fashion) that he would offer us a hint that it's in
the adagio and it's a "compound quote."
Is anyone here aware of such a quotation?
Paul Ilechko
2007-08-25 22:29:11 UTC
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Post by boombox
I recently heard someone claim that Bruckner's 9th contains quotes
from Parsifal. When asked what and where, he would only say (in a
very condescending fashion) that he would offer us a hint that it's in
the adagio and it's a "compound quote."
Is anyone here aware of such a quotation?
"The final movement of Bruckner's Ninth Symphony is not "absolute
music," since it contains religious symbols and allusions to the
composer's approaching death. This conclusion is supported by taking
into account not only sketches, structural analysis, and Bruckner's own
hermeneutic statements, but also interpretations of borrowed material.
In his opening theme, for example, Bruckner strongly alludes to his
Fifth Symphony, the Sehnsuchtsmotiv from Wagner's Tristan, and the
"Dresden Amen" from Parsifal. The following climax (or Klangfläche)
quotes Liszt's "symbol of the cross" from the Graner Messe, and the
second theme (letter C) presents and develops a motive ("miserere")
taken from the D Minor Mass. Several other self-quotations (from the
Benedictus of the Mass in F Minor and the Seventh and Eighth Symphonies)
reinforce the impression of the look back suggested by Bruckner himself
for the passage at letter B ("Abschied vom Leben," mm. 29-44)."

Floros, Constantin. "Zur Deutung der Symphonik Bruckners: Das Adagio der
Neunten Symphonie." In Bruckner-Jahrbuch 1981, ed. Franz Grasberger,
89-96. Linz: Druck- und Verlagsanstalt Gutenberg, 1982.
Aaron Z Snyder
2007-08-27 19:32:26 UTC
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Post by Paul Ilechko
"The final movement of Bruckner's Ninth Symphony is not "absolute
music....
Floros, Constantin. "Zur Deutung der Symphonik Bruckners: Das Adagio der
Neunten Symphonie." In Bruckner-Jahrbuch 1981, ed. Franz Grasberger,
89-96. Linz: Druck- und Verlagsanstalt Gutenberg, 1982.
There is one error in Floros' analysis. His description is *not* of the
"final movement", but of the third movement (adagio).

Aaron
Juan I. Cahis
2007-08-27 21:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Dear friends:

Yes, independently if some people don't agree with the several
reconstructions that exist of the Ninth's Fourth movement, the Adagio
was never thought by Bruckner as a "final movement".
Post by Aaron Z Snyder
Post by Paul Ilechko
"The final movement of Bruckner's Ninth Symphony is not "absolute
music....
Floros, Constantin. "Zur Deutung der Symphonik Bruckners: Das Adagio der
Neunten Symphonie." In Bruckner-Jahrbuch 1981, ed. Franz Grasberger,
89-96. Linz: Druck- und Verlagsanstalt Gutenberg, 1982.
There is one error in Floros' analysis. His description is *not* of the
"final movement", but of the third movement (adagio).
Aaron
Thanks
Juan I. Cahis
Santiago de Chile (South America)
Note: Please forgive me for my bad English, I am trying to improve it!
Paul Ilechko
2007-08-27 23:48:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aaron Z Snyder
Post by Paul Ilechko
"The final movement of Bruckner's Ninth Symphony is not "absolute
music....
Floros, Constantin. "Zur Deutung der Symphonik Bruckners: Das Adagio der
Neunten Symphonie." In Bruckner-Jahrbuch 1981, ed. Franz Grasberger,
89-96. Linz: Druck- und Verlagsanstalt Gutenberg, 1982.
There is one error in Floros' analysis. His description is *not* of the
"final movement", but of the third movement (adagio).
Anyone but an idiotic pedant would realize that he was talking about the
final *completed* movement.
J***@msn.com
2007-08-28 00:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by Aaron Z Snyder
Post by Paul Ilechko
"The final movement of Bruckner's Ninth Symphony is not "absolute
music....
Floros, Constantin. "Zur Deutung der Symphonik Bruckners: Das Adagio der
Neunten Symphonie." In Bruckner-Jahrbuch 1981, ed. Franz Grasberger,
89-96. Linz: Druck- und Verlagsanstalt Gutenberg, 1982.
There is one error in Floros' analysis. His description is *not* of the
"final movement", but of the third movement (adagio).
Anyone but an idiotic pedant would realize that he was talking about the
final *completed* movement.
Paulie, you just love to throw that word "idiotic" around alot, don't
you (I guess you heard it often when growing up)! Hauser
Juan I. Cahis
2007-08-28 02:42:12 UTC
Permalink
I don't think that Aaron is discussing that, you didn't understand
him. He is telling us that the "final movement" that Floros is
describing was not designed as the "final movement" of the Symphony by
Bruckner, so maybe Floros' analysis doesn't applies in that
perspective.
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by Aaron Z Snyder
Post by Paul Ilechko
"The final movement of Bruckner's Ninth Symphony is not "absolute
music....
Floros, Constantin. "Zur Deutung der Symphonik Bruckners: Das Adagio der
Neunten Symphonie." In Bruckner-Jahrbuch 1981, ed. Franz Grasberger,
89-96. Linz: Druck- und Verlagsanstalt Gutenberg, 1982.
There is one error in Floros' analysis. His description is *not* of the
"final movement", but of the third movement (adagio).
Anyone but an idiotic pedant would realize that he was talking about the
final *completed* movement.
Thanks
Juan I. Cahis
Santiago de Chile (South America)
Note: Please forgive me for my bad English, I am trying to improve it!
Paul Ilechko
2007-08-28 12:15:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Juan I. Cahis
I don't think that Aaron is discussing that, you didn't understand
him. He is telling us that the "final movement" that Floros is
describing was not designed as the "final movement" of the Symphony by
Bruckner, so maybe Floros' analysis doesn't applies in that
perspective.
Floros is describing what is in the score. Whether or not Bruckner
intended to write a fourth movement bears no relation to whether or not
there are Wagner quotes in the only extant "final" movement, and whether
or not the quoted comments accurately describe that movement.
Aaron Z Snyder
2007-08-28 14:01:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Ilechko
Post by Juan I. Cahis
I don't think that Aaron is discussing that, you didn't understand
him. He is telling us that the "final movement" that Floros is
describing was not designed as the "final movement" of the Symphony by
Bruckner, so maybe Floros' analysis doesn't applies in that
perspective.
Floros is describing what is in the score. Whether or not Bruckner
intended to write a fourth movement bears no relation to whether or not
there are Wagner quotes in the only extant "final" movement, and whether
or not the quoted comments accurately describe that movement.
D'oh!

Aaron Z (bringing pedantry to new idiotic levels)

Chris
2007-08-25 23:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by boombox
I recently heard someone claim that Bruckner's 9th contains quotes
from Parsifal. When asked what and where, he would only say (in a
very condescending fashion) that he would offer us a hint that it's in
the adagio and it's a "compound quote."
Is anyone here aware of such a quotation?
ACD? Condescending? That's really unlike him, I'm shocked. You
must've caught him on a bad day.
boombox
2007-08-25 23:33:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
Post by boombox
I recently heard someone claim that Bruckner's 9th contains quotes
from Parsifal. When asked what and where, he would only say (in a
very condescending fashion) that he would offer us a hint that it's in
the adagio and it's a "compound quote."
Is anyone here aware of such a quotation?
ACD? Condescending? That's really unlike him, I'm shocked. You
must've caught him on a bad day.
Yeah, he's a hoot, all right. Kind of like the clock that doesn't
move and is exactly right twice a day. I'm still skeptical that there
is an actual quotation (rather than what might be called an allusion,)
which is why I'd like chapter and verse cited here.
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