Help Plz : Most agreed upon Ultimate Recordings

[Owen Hartnett]

I want to have a small classical collection of about 24 CDs chosen from
my wifes and my favorite composers below. These CDs were suggestions I
got from a local Montreal record salesman who seemed to know his stuff.
For numbers 2,5,6,8,9,11,13,14,17,19,24 .
I'm looking for the all time best versions of those pieces which also

There is no such thing. Like the One True Religion, there are several
of them. Don't be fooled by best sound quality, it's a red herring.
Go for the best performance. That's like buying a Beatles song by
Lawrence Welk because the sound is better. Go buy the Beatles instead.
Below, I'll recommend some Beatles (or performances that sound good,
rather than have great sound). And frankly, your ears aren't ready yet
to discern between good sound of the 90's and good sound of the 60's
and 70's.

The type of CD recordings that most
critics agree are the ultimate best.

Critics don't agree, throats are slashed, blood is spilled, hearts are
broken.

For the other numbers, suggestions of other best or famous compositions
or ultimate versions. I know its a tall order but I'm new to classical
and i'm about to spend $1000 , so any help will be appreciated Thanks.
Chris.L

Also, all the latest allegedly "Best Sounding" CD's are full price
expensive. The best performances are usually much cheaper (some in the
discount racks) which means *you can buy more for the same money* and
you won't be able to tell the difference in sound.

1-Beethoven Favorite Piano Sonatas A.Brendel (DBL) Philips 1993 438
730-2

Ugh! The choice of favorite artists for Beethoven sonatas is very
personal. Forget Brendel, instead try Glenn Gould. They're idiomatic,
but will be a much more interesting reading, at the very least, and
played by a pianist who could play them anyway he wanted.

2-Beethoven Symphony 1 a 9 Von Karajan Deutsche Grammophon 1961 429
036-2 5 CD

I thought it was done in 1963? Not a bad choice, it's kind of the one
everyone can point to as pretty good, but nobody says it's always #1.
Most people here will tell you the truth: there is no box set that can
possibly be the best for all 9 symphonies, and you're better off with
individual performances of each. Get Carlos Kleiber conducting the
Beethoven Symphony #5 and #7. Use google on this group to get other
suggestions (which isn't a bad idea for any of these).

3-Brahms Concerto pour Violon Perlman EMI 724356699229

Eh. Get Nathan Milstein. Perlman's OK, but Milstein is forever.

4-Mozart Piano Concertos 20 / 21 Mitsuko Uchida Philips 1986
4163812

Get the multi-edition Casadesus/Szell on budget Sony disks. The other
late Mozart concertos are as good or better than those.

5-Mozart La flûte Enchantée (ZauberFlote)(DBL) Gardiner Archiv 1996
449166-2

Get Beecham's instead.

6-Puccini Turandot Karajan (DBL) Deutsche Gr. 1987 289423855-2
7-Rameau Pièces de Clavecin en Concerts Pinnock Channel Classics
CCS19098
8-Tchaikovsky Le Lac des Cygnes (DBL) Ozawa Deutsche Gr. 1996
453055-2
9-Tchaikovsky Nut Cracker Dorati (DBL) Philips 1975 464
747 or 442562
10-Brahms Concertos pour Piano Nos 1 & 2 C.Arrau EMI 7243 5 75326 2 4

Only for Cto #1, and you would do just as good or better with
Fleisher/Szell. For a set, I'd prefer Gilels, for #2, I'd get
Serkin/Szell, Richter/Leinsdorf.

11-Bach Brandenburg Concerto 1-6 Harnoncourt(DBL) Teldec 4509 95980 -2
12-Bach Solo & Double Violin Concertos A.Manze Harmonia Mundi HMU 2
907155
13-Bach Mass in B Minor (DBL) Gardiner Archiv 1985 415 514-2
14-Bach Great Organ Works (DBL) (Toccata & Fugue) Helmut Walcha Deutsche
Gr. 453 064-2
15-Beethoven Famous Ouvertures Karajan (DBL) Deutsche Gr. (DBL) 474
275-2
16-Bach Bach Magnificat Gardiner Philips 2000 464672
17-Monteverdi , Claude Vespers of the Blessed Virgin (DBL) Garrido
K617 K617136
18-Mozart 5 Violin Concertos Perlman J.Levine (DBL) Deutsche Gr.
1994 445 535-2
19-Orff Carl Carmina Burana Ozawa Berlin Philharmon Philips 2000
464725
20-Vivaldi 7 Concerti Trev Pinnock Archiv 1995 2894458392
21-Vivaldi Late Vivaldi Concertos Chamichia Sony SK 89362
22-Vivaldi L'Estro Armonico Concertos (DBL) Hogwood Decca 1998
4580782
23-Vivaldi Prince of Poland A.Mauze Harm. Mundi 2907230
24-Vivaldi The 4 Seasons Trevor Pinnock Archiv (DBL) 400 045-2

As Eric Satie wrote: "Expand your mind." Throw in some Mahler and
Wagner. Get Otto Klemperor's Mahler Symphony #2. Get Van Cliburn
playing Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #1 and the Rachmaninoff Concerto #2.
Get Horowitz playing the Beethoven Emperor Concerto #5. Go hunting
like a real collector and get Fritz Reiner playing Wagner's
Meistersinger overture - you won't regret buying that one. You may get
tired of those Vivaldi's pretty quickly, but the above you'll be
listening to for the rest of your life.

-Owen

[Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)]

I want to have a small classical collection of about 24 CDs chosen from
my wifes and my favorite composers below. These CDs were suggestions I
got from a local Montreal record salesman who seemed to know his stuff.
For numbers 2,5,6,8,9,11,13,14,17,19,24 .
I'm looking for the all time best versions of those pieces which also
must have a very good sound quality: The type of CD recordings that most
critics agree are the ultimate best.
For the other numbers, suggestions of other best or famous compositions
or ultimate versions. I know its a tall order but I'm new to classical
and i'm about to spend $1000 , so any help will be appreciated Thanks.

E. Cobham Brewer, in his 1898 _Dictionary of Phrase and Fable_, relates the
following story: "Euclid, having opened a school of mathematics at
Alexandria, was asked by King Ptolemy whether he could not explain his art
to him in a more compendious manner. "Sire," said the geometrician, "there
is no royal road to learning."

Neither, I hasten to add, is there a royal road to collecting recordings of
classical music. It requires time, and it requires money, and most of all
it requires conscious thought, and comprehension, and patient comparison.
There is no "best" recording of anything (unless, of course, there is a
recording of it performed by chorus director Matthew Best). I am afraid
you are going to have to work at it, just as the rest of us have done.

[mazzolata]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
There is no "best" recording of anything (unless, of course, there
is a recording of it performed by chorus director Matthew Best).

Interesting comment - I have a truly wonderful CD by Best of RVW's
Mass in G and Howells Requiem; are you saying that everything he
does is this good?

Er, mazzolata, methinks Matthew added the quotes around "best" for a
very specific reason, and that he was not providing any information
about his opinion of Matthew Best's work.
:-|

Ok, so I'm an idiot :-(

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by mazzolata

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
There is no "best" recording of anything (unless, of course, there
is a recording of it performed by chorus director Matthew Best).

Interesting comment - I have a truly wonderful CD by Best of RVW's
Mass in G and Howells Requiem; are you saying that everything he
does is this good?

Er, mazzolata, methinks Matthew added the quotes around "best" for a
very specific reason, and that he was not providing any information
about his opinion of Matthew Best's work.
:-|

Ok, so I'm an idiot :-(

Actually, Mr. Briggs has often proved himself impervious to posters'
attempts at wordplay (which is odd, considering the other newsgroup on
which I frequently encounter him).

[Robert Briggs]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Actually, Mr. Briggs has often proved himself impervious to posters'
attempts at wordplay (which is odd, considering the other newsgroup
on which I frequently encounter him).

And you have often proved yourself impervious.

[Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
There is no "best" recording of anything (unless, of course, there
is a recording of it performed by chorus director Matthew Best).

Interesting comment - I have a truly wonderful CD by Best of RVW's
Mass in G and Howells Requiem; are you saying that everything he
does is this good?

Er, mazzolata, methinks Matthew added the quotes around "best" for a
very specific reason, and that he was not providing any information
about his opinion of Matthew Best's work.
:-|

Although as it happens, for choral music from the Romantic-era forward, I
have enjoyed Matthew Best's recordings.

[mazzolata]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)

Er, mazzolata, methinks Matthew added the quotes around "best" for a
very specific reason, and that he was not providing any information
about his opinion of Matthew Best's work.
:-|

Although as it happens, for choral music from the Romantic-era forward, I
have enjoyed Matthew Best's recordings.

Well, I just ordered a Bruckner Mass, so I hope it's going to be good -
I'll blame you otherwise !

[MIFrost]

Let me respectfully disagree, sort of. Many people notice very little
of the differences between one interpretation of a piece and another.
Even people who insist they can are often fooled in blind listening
tests. Many (most?) listeners simply want to hear a favorite piece
from time to time and would be quite happy with whichever performer or
ensemble happens to be playing it. One budget stereo recording of each
of their favorite ten or twenty or thirty works and they're like a pig
in mud. It's all play and no work.

MIFrost

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
Neither, I hasten to add, is there a royal road to collecting recordings of
classical music. It requires time, and it requires money, and most of all
it requires conscious thought, and comprehension, and patient comparison.
There is no "best" recording of anything (unless, of course, there is a
recording of it performed by chorus director Matthew Best). I am afraid
you are going to have to work at it, just as the rest of us have done.

[Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)]

[top-posting fixed at no extra charge]

Post by MIFrost

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
There is no "best" recording of anything (unless, of course, there
is a recording of it performed by chorus director Matthew Best). I
am afraid you are going to have to work at it, just as the rest of
us have done.

Let me respectfully disagree, sort of. Many people notice very little
of the differences between one interpretation of a piece and another.
Even people who insist they can are often fooled in blind listening
tests. Many (most?) listeners simply want to hear a favorite piece
from time to time and would be quite happy with whichever performer
or ensemble happens to be playing it. One budget stereo recording of
each of their favorite ten or twenty or thirty works and they're like
a pig in mud. It's all play and no work.

I'd say that is true enough for *some* people, and a goodly number
more are quite happy with "competent" or "reasonable" recordings
(i.e., pretty much anything but *downright bad* stuff).
I'm looking for the all time best versions of those pieces
which also must have a very good sound quality: The type of
CD recordings that most critics agree are the ultimate best.

In other words, that old standby, the "imperious yuppie":
http://tinyurl.com/72us

[Deryk Barker]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)

[top-posting fixed at no extra charge]

Post by MIFrost

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
There is no "best" recording of anything (unless, of course, there
is a recording of it performed by chorus director Matthew Best). I
am afraid you are going to have to work at it, just as the rest of
us have done.

Let me respectfully disagree, sort of. Many people notice very little
of the differences between one interpretation of a piece and another.
Even people who insist they can are often fooled in blind listening
tests. Many (most?) listeners simply want to hear a favorite piece
from time to time and would be quite happy with whichever performer
or ensemble happens to be playing it. One budget stereo recording of
each of their favorite ten or twenty or thirty works and they're like
a pig in mud. It's all play and no work.

I'd say that is true enough for *some* people, and a goodly number
more are quite happy with "competent" or "reasonable" recordings
(i.e., pretty much anything but *downright bad* stuff).
I'm looking for the all time best versions of those pieces
which also must have a very good sound quality: The type of
CD recordings that most critics agree are the ultimate best.

http://tinyurl.com/72us

Yep - obviously there's nobody else worth considering in the Beethoven
symphonies than Arturo and Heribert.

(Good grief!)

[MIFrost]

Nine chances out of ten, based on the way the poster has posed his
query, he'd be more than happy with 24 (his number) "good"
performances in "good" sound. After all, music isn't mathematics which
has one right answer. That he seems to think there's an "ultimate"
best recording of any piece (much like there's an ultimate "most
beautiful woman,") leads me to believe that as long as he doesn't get
stuck with a real dud, any first rate recording will be just fine.

MIFrost

[top-posting fixed at no extra charge]

Post by MIFrost

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
There is no "best" recording of anything (unless, of course, there is a
recording of it performed by chorus director Matthew Best). I am afraid
you are going to have to work at it, just as the rest of us have done.

Let me respectfully disagree, sort of. Many people notice very little
of the differences between one interpretation of a piece and another.
Even people who insist they can are often fooled in blind listening
tests. Many (most?) listeners simply want to hear a favorite piece
from time to time and would be quite happy with whichever performer or
ensemble happens to be playing it. One budget stereo recording of each
of their favorite ten or twenty or thirty works and they're like a pig
in mud. It's all play and no work.

I'd say that is true enough for *some* people, and a goodly number more
are quite happy with "competent" or "reasonable" recordings (i.e.,
pretty
much anything but *downright bad* stuff).
I'm looking for the all time best versions of those pieces
which also must have a very good sound quality: The type of
CD recordings that most critics agree are the ultimate best.

[MIFrost]

I believe that once you leave this group or other groups of hyper-critical
listeners, most people who buy and listen to CM *casually* are satisfied
generally with almost any top-selling recording of their favorite works.
"It's Beethoven, it's [famous pianist] accompanied by [famous orchestra].
Sounds fine to me." And of course it sounds fine. It *is* fine. Only here
and in a few other places inhabited by neurotics like (some of) us is each
note evaluated with such a fine-toothed comb.

8-)

Most people who go to a famous, world renown French restaurant eat the
exquisitely prepared food and find it outstanding. Super gourmets with noses
like bloodhounds can detect the tiniest flaw in this or that dish but unless
you're one of them the food is delicious, period. The fun at rmcr is
discussing the merits and flaws of various recordings with like-minded
listeners but most non-rmcr listeners aren't that critical. I suppose food
buffs have their own newsgroup and discuss this or that chefs successes or
failures. But if Most of us eat at a top restaurant we'll be quite
satisfied.

I trust no one took offense at my comments. None was intended.

MIFrost
says...

Post by MIFrost
Let me respectfully disagree, sort of. Many people notice very little
of the differences between one interpretation of a piece and another.
Even people who insist they can are often fooled in blind listening
tests.

Do you mean they can't tell the difference or can't tell who the performer

is?

The latter might not be particularly surprising, but the former would be,

at

least in many instances. If someone didn't notice the differences

between, say,

MAK's Brandenburg 3 and Leppard's, I would be amazed. It's true that

there are

plenty of recordings of any given piece that sound similar to each other,

but

often there are also remarkable discrepancies/differences.
Simon

[Kalman Rubinson]

Post by MIFrost
I believe that once you leave this group or other groups of hyper-critical
listeners, most people who buy and listen to CM *casually* are satisfied
generally with almost any top-selling recording of their favorite works.
"It's Beethoven, it's [famous pianist] accompanied by [famous orchestra].
Sounds fine to me." And of course it sounds fine. It *is* fine. Only here
and in a few other places inhabited by neurotics like (some of) us is each
note evaluated with such a fine-toothed comb.

I do not disagree that such is likely. However, I have a relative who
maintains that he is too busy to read monthly review magazines or
website and, thus, buys his recordings based on the NAME of the
performer. He says that he is generally disappointed in what he gets
and asks me how he can improve his batting average WITHOUT investing
time and effort.

Kal

[Raymond Hall]

"aztech" <***@total.net> wrote in message news:***@total.net...
|
| I want to have a small classical collection of about 24 CDs chosen from
| my wifes and my favorite composers below. These CDs were suggestions I
| got from a local Montreal record salesman who seemed to know his stuff.
|
| For numbers 2,5,6,8,9,11,13,14,17,19,24 .
[snipperoo ......]

There isn't such a word as "definitive" in classical music. You will soon
learn that fact. But fwiw, I would personally recommend No.2 and No.9 on
your list. As for No.6 (Turandot) then the Mehta version (with Sutherland,
Pavarotti, etc) I find to be very satisfying, but I would still like to know
more about Karajan's Turandot.

Orchestrally, and otherwise, I find Karajan to be superb in Debussy's
Pelleas et Melisande on EMI, and am imagining something similar with his
Turandot.

Regards,

# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)

Ray, Taree, NSW

[Stephen North]

Post by Raymond Hall
|
| I want to have a small classical collection of about 24 CDs chosen from
| my wifes and my favorite composers below. These CDs were suggestions I
| got from a local Montreal record salesman who seemed to know his stuff.
|
| For numbers 2,5,6,8,9,11,13,14,17,19,24 .
[snipperoo ......]
There isn't such a word as "definitive" in classical music. You will soon
learn that fact. But fwiw, I would personally recommend No.2 and No.9 on
your list. As for No.6 (Turandot) then the Mehta version (with Sutherland,
Pavarotti, etc) I find to be very satisfying, but I would still like to know
more about Karajan's Turandot.
Orchestrally, and otherwise, I find Karajan to be superb in Debussy's
Pelleas et Melisande on EMI, and am imagining something similar with his
Turandot.
Regards,
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)
Ray, Taree, NSW

Ray

Proceed with caution and care towards Karajan's Turandot - it has some
good things - Hendricks, Domingo and his Ping, Pong & Pang but.....

Ricciarelli is not afraid to let the Princess' raw, vicious,
immaturity come though in her singing - despite what many say about
Karajan, in this instance, he was not pursing beauty first and
foremost.

The recording is dreadfully inconsistant in its placing of voices and
orchestra. The VPO play well but perspective change too often for it
to be comfortable. There are parts which have an unbelievable
atmosphere, akin to Pelleas, these only remind me of what might have
been. The set pieces come off OK I suppose, but it all has the air of
something done in a hurry. Worth hearing what one of the great
Puccini conductors does with the score but not worth full price.

S

[Richard Schultz]

In rec.music.classical.recordings Owen?Hartnett <***@xids.xnet> wrote:

: Also, all the latest allegedly "Best Sounding" CD's are full price
: expensive. The best performances are usually much cheaper (some in the
: discount racks) which means *you can buy more for the same money* and
: you won't be able to tell the difference in sound.

Way back in the Days Of Vinyl, "Stereo Review" published a "Guide to the
Basic Repertoire" -- I think it was mostly Martin Bookspan's recommendations.
They tended to recommend the budget labelled stuff for precisely the
reason you give.

:> 1-Beethoven Favorite Piano Sonatas A.Brendel (DBL) Philips 1993 438
:> 730-2

: Ugh! The choice of favorite artists for Beethoven sonatas is very
: personal. Forget Brendel, instead try Glenn Gould.

I know that your political philosophy runs from the misinformed to the
ignorant, but until this moment, I had no idea that you are a sadist as well.
For "favorite piano sonatas" (Pathetique/Moonlight/Appassionata),
Horowitz or Rubinstein will do just fine.

:> 4-Mozart Piano Concertos 20 / 21 Mitsuko Uchida Philips 1986
:> 4163812
:
: Get the multi-edition Casadesus/Szell on budget Sony disks. The other
: late Mozart concertos are as good or better than those.

Get anyone who isn't Uchida.

:> 5-Mozart La fl?te Enchant?e (ZauberFlote)(DBL) Gardiner Archiv 1996
:> 449166-2

: Get Beecham's instead.

Or Boehm's.

:> 11-Bach Brandenburg Concerto 1-6 Harnoncourt(DBL) Teldec 4509 95980 -2

I'd probably pick Pinnock over Harnoncourt here.

: As Eric Satie wrote: "Expand your mind." Throw in some Mahler and
: Wagner. Get Otto Klemperor's Mahler Symphony #2.

Better yet, get Bruno Walter's. Or Otto Klemperer's if you must. Although
for a novice, I'd recommend Mahler's Symphony #1 if anything.

: Get Van Cliburn
: playing Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto #1 and the Rachmaninoff Concerto #2.

Get Rubinstein playing the Rachmaninoff Concerto #2. The version with
Reiner conducting generally gets the nod, but I've always preferred the
Ormandy version -- possibly due to early imprinting.

I agree that the proposed collection is rather Vivaldi-heavy. I'd
probably remove some of it and throw in stuff like the Faure Requiem
(with apologies to Matthew Tepper); the Mozart Requiem; Schubert's 8th
and 9th symphonies; Beethoven late quartets. And so on.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
It's a bird, it's a plane -- no, it's Mozart. . .

[Owen Hartnett]

Post by Richard Schultz
: Ugh! The choice of favorite artists for Beethoven sonatas is very
: personal. Forget Brendel, instead try Glenn Gould.
I know that your political philosophy runs from the misinformed to the
ignorant,

Gee, a political knock in the middle of a serious discussion. You
should try to curb this, and keep the politicos in the OT posts.
Please feel free to bash me at will there.

Post by Richard Schultz
but until this moment, I had no idea that you are a sadist as well.
For "favorite piano sonatas" (Pathetique/Moonlight/Appassionata),
Horowitz or Rubinstein will do just fine.

I'll agree on the Rubinstein, but Horowitz is as mannered as Gould, and
doesn't come off as well, to these ears.

-Owen

[cwilson]

I want to have a small classical collection of about 24 CDs chosen from
my wifes and my favorite composers below. These CDs were suggestions I
got from a local Montreal record salesman who seemed to know his stuff.

Personally, if I were to confine myself to only 24 CDs, I wouldn't get
five discs of Vivaldi concertos; one would be plenty. More than
plenty, actually, probably still one too many. But perhaps you estime
Vivaldi much more highly than I do.

[Risto Karttunen]

These CDs were suggestions I
got from a local Montreal record salesman who seemed to know his stuff.

Perhaps he knew _his_ stuff, but there is so much more. I do not agree
with almost any of those suggestions.

The type of CD recordings that most
critics agree are the ultimate best.

Oh...but what is the _type_ of CD recordings?

I'm new to classical
and i'm about to spend $1000

For 24 recordings only?

--
risto

[giselle]

1-Beethoven Favorite Piano Sonatas A.Brendel (DBL) Philips 1993 438
730-2

Too dry. He might turn you off. Gilels is much better in these
2GH 419162, 2GH 400036
Also get Richter DHR 7718 for op.101, 109, 110, 111

Don't get Gould as a primary or even secondary, he's
not canonical. He deliberately distorts. He might be
ok for some spice, but not until after you've heard
them done properly.

2-Beethoven Symphony 1 a 9 Von Karajan Deutsche Grammophon 1961 429
036-2 5 CD

Kleiber for 5&7, Fricsay for 9

3-Brahms Concerto pour Violon Perlman EMI 724356699229

Gilels.

4-Mozart Piano Concertos 20 / 21 Mitsuko Uchida Philips 1986
4163812

She's awful. Also avoid Brendel and Barenboim. Perahia is a little
less cringe-inducing than Uchida but that's not saying much.

Pollini's 19/23 are great. Also I adore Ranki's but he didn't
record many of the concertos and they might be hard to find.

10-Brahms Concertos pour Piano Nos 1 & 2 C.Arrau EMI 7243 5 75326 2 4

Gilels!

19-Orff Carl Carmina Burana Ozawa Berlin Philharmon Philips 2000
464725

I'd suggest something super-budget, like maybe $3 for this one.
You won't be visiting it that often.

20-Vivaldi 7 Concerti Trev Pinnock Archiv 1995 2894458392
21-Vivaldi Late Vivaldi Concertos Chamichia Sony SK 89362
22-Vivaldi L'Estro Armonico Concertos (DBL) Hogwood Decca 1998
4580782
23-Vivaldi Prince of Poland A.Mauze Harm. Mundi 2907230
24-Vivaldi The 4 Seasons Trevor Pinnock Archiv (DBL) 400 045-2

Consider some of the Vivaldi offerings on the BIS label. They
might be more satisfying. Pinnock is chilly. I can't stand Hogwood,
either, but he seems to be preferred over Pinnock. Also, it's not
unlikely that you'll OD on Vivaldi pretty quickly.

[Daniel]

Post by giselle

4-Mozart Piano Concertos 20 / 21 Mitsuko Uchida Philips 1986
4163812

She's awful. Also avoid Brendel and Barenboim. Perahia is a little
less cringe-inducing than Uchida but that's not saying much.
Pollini's 19/23 are great. Also I adore Ranki's but he didn't
record many of the concertos and they might be hard to find.

No, *don't* avoid Brendel.

There are people who *love* Mozart's Piano Concertos by Brendel. He's
my favorite piano player, and since I don't know anything about music
beyond what I like to listen to, perceived sound quality -- what the
OP posted about in the first place -- may have something to do with
it.

There's no one I'd rather listen to doing Mozart than Brendel -- well,
except Hogwood doing the symphonies. (Giselle, you hate Hogwood, too,
don't you? Hmmm. I think I'll pay close attention to your
recommendations, and avoid everyone you like!)

As far as sound quality goes, I have discovered over a 15-year period
that I like the sound of certain labels better than that of others. If
I were completely unfamiliar with a work or any of its performers, I
would choose a Philips or London/Decca CD over one on DG, Sony or EMI.
Harmonia Mundi sound nice, but I seldom like the music on them.

[mazzolata]

Post by Daniel
As far as sound quality goes, I have discovered over a 15-year period
that I like the sound of certain labels better than that of others. If
I were completely unfamiliar with a work or any of its performers, I
would choose a Philips or London/Decca CD over one on DG, Sony or EMI.
Harmonia Mundi sound nice, but I seldom like the music on them.

Yeah, but DG taste better when you lick them.

Seriously, this is the level you've reached after fifteen years? That's
pretty sad, really.

[Daniel]

Post by mazzolata

Post by Daniel
As far as sound quality goes, I have discovered over a 15-year period
that I like the sound of certain labels better than that of others. If
I were completely unfamiliar with a work or any of its performers, I
would choose a Philips or London/Decca CD over one on DG, Sony or EMI.
Harmonia Mundi sound nice, but I seldom like the music on them.

Yeah, but DG taste better when you lick them.
Seriously, this is the level you've reached after fifteen years? That's
pretty sad, really.

And where *should* I be, o condescending one?

[giselle]

Post by Daniel
There are people who *love* Mozart's Piano Concertos by Brendel.

I for one can't say I *love* his interpretations, but I like them well
enough -- and I don't like the pieces themselves so much that I feel the
need to have an 'uber' version.

Well, there you go! If you'd heard uber performances,
you would probably love the pieces themselves. That's
the way it works for me. In the end, the works I listen
to the most are the ones that speak to me most deeply.

Brendel is not THAT bad. He's just consistently
less moving than the best of them. Also, he is
overrepresented in my collection, and I'd hate
to see others make the same mistake.

[giselle]

Post by Daniel
There's no one I'd rather listen to doing Mozart than Brendel -- well,
except Hogwood doing the symphonies. (Giselle, you hate Hogwood, too,
don't you? Hmmm. I think I'll pay close attention to your
recommendations, and avoid everyone you like!)

If you do this...

Post by Daniel
As far as sound quality goes, I have discovered over a 15-year period
that I like the sound of certain labels better than that of others. If
I were completely unfamiliar with a work or any of its performers, I
would choose a Philips or London/Decca CD over one on DG, Sony or EMI.
Harmonia Mundi sound nice, but I seldom like the music on them.

it's not likely that you will progress beyond this.

[Daniel]

Post by giselle

Post by Daniel
There's no one I'd rather listen to doing Mozart than Brendel -- well,
except Hogwood doing the symphonies. (Giselle, you hate Hogwood, too,
don't you? Hmmm. I think I'll pay close attention to your
recommendations, and avoid everyone you like!)

If you do this...

Post by Daniel
As far as sound quality goes, I have discovered over a 15-year period
that I like the sound of certain labels better than that of others. If
I were completely unfamiliar with a work or any of its performers, I
would choose a Philips or London/Decca CD over one on DG, Sony or EMI.
Harmonia Mundi sound nice, but I seldom like the music on them.

it's not likely that you will progress beyond this.

And why, exactly, is it necessary that I "progress beyond this"? I've
arrived at my concept of what I like, of what works for me, after
buying more than 1500 classical CDs. I'd say that if I *didn't* have
an idea of what I like at this point, then I might be in need of a
little of your "progress."

What is it, incidentally, that makes classical fans so intensely
condescending?

You remind me, Giselle, of a less-than-favorite Tower Records clerk,
who simply couldn't let an opportunity pass to announce to the other,
almost-as-snotty clerks, and the room at large, "Ooh, he wants the
Kramer v. Kramer music" (or some such insult) every time a customer
came in who didn't know as much as he did about classical music. I
stopped shopping there. I didn't even go back when he got fired for
his supercilious manner.

In any other area, old-timers – anyone who knows more than someone
else, really – are welcoming, warm, enthusiastic. When I got into
cooking, I found most of the people to be among the most pleasant I'd
met anywhere. *So* not true in classical music. I think this may have
more to do with the "death" of classical music than any other factor.

I'm out of here. I'd rather listen to music than become obsessed with
the nastiness of some of its fans.

[Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)]

***@msn.com (Daniel) appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:***@posting.google.com:

[much whining snipped]

Post by Daniel
I'm out of here. I'd rather listen to music than become obsessed with
the nastiness of some of its fans.

Am I the only one who suspects that all of these supposed "newbies" who get
snotty and leave might really be the same person posting again and again?

[Stephen Worth]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
Am I the only one who suspects that all of these supposed "newbies" who get
snotty and leave might really be the same person posting again and again?

Solipsism rears its ugly head! Heheheh...

See ya
Steve

[Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)]

Post by Stephen Worth

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
Am I the only one who suspects that all of these supposed "newbies"
who get snotty and leave might really be the same person posting
again and again?

Solipsism rears its ugly head! Heheheh...

It could be the Hiram W. Beepgladeep Revenge Squad....

[giselle]

Post by Daniel

Post by Daniel
(Giselle, you hate Hogwood, too,
don't you? Hmmm. I think I'll pay close attention to your
recommendations, and avoid everyone you like!)

You remind me, Giselle, of a less-than-favorite Tower Records clerk,
who simply couldn't let an opportunity pass to announce to the other,
almost-as-snotty clerks, and the room at large, "Ooh, he wants the
Kramer v. Kramer music" (or some such insult)

Dear Daniel,

I believe that it was you who insulted me. See what you wrote
above.

However, I am willing to overlook it and make the magnanimous
gesture of suggesting that you do not get the recording listed
below. And also, be sure that you do not listen to it immediately
before or after Brendel.

Beethoven, Piano Concerto #5. Mozart, Concerto #20.
(Youri Egorov w.Philharmonia/ Sawallisch)
Price: $ 4.99
D/A code: D | Code: 67764 | BRO Code: 2623 | Label: EMI/ANGEL


:)

[Daniel]

Post by Daniel
There's no one I'd rather listen to doing Mozart than Brendel

I'm curious as to what other recordings you know. I prefer Perahia
over Brendel and Barenboim (EMI) for the beguilingly beautiful
approach - I group this three together as polite, polished,
perfunctory performances. I found Marriner's conducting pretty dull,
Perahia's perhaps a notch more incisive and sometimes even exciting in
places. The English Chamber Orchestra has a much more colorful wind
section than the ASMF - very important, especially in the later
concertos. I find Perahia's playing more interesting than Barenboim's
(also with the ECO), although I've only heard 2 of the latter (20 and
24). If you want to stay with this approach, I think Goode/Orpheus is
preferable to all of the above.
If you want these concertos to be more than just dinner music,
however, you should check out some other recordings - Anderszewski's
21/24 and Pletnev's 9/20 (both on Virgin) would be a good starting
place. I really like Bilson/Gardiner in 20, too. All of these
performances have greater dynamic contrasts, more distinctive
orchestral contributions, and just more flair and personality than
those listed above. I haven't closely compared my recordings of 23,
but I've kept Rubinstein/Wallenstein, Pletnev, Moravec/Vlach and Goode
on my shelf, having culled Perahia and Brendel long ago.
Cheers,
Marcus Maroney
marcus dot maroney at yale dot edu

Actually, it was hearing Alfred Brendel in a record store that got me
started buying classical music, back in the 1980s. When I heard
Schubert's Piano Sonata 960 over the store's stereo system, I had to
have it. The salesclerk picked out a copy from a display wall of what
he called "midprice" CDs. I bought as well some HVK Beethoven and
another Brendel CD, Mozart's Piano Concertos 23 and 27.

Wow! I loved it. This CD, these Mozart Piano Concertos, this is was
what really got me into listening to, buying, and collecting classical
music. "Dinner music"? No way. (Why must classical music fans be so
condescending, incidentally? Enthusiasts in any field I can think of
are usually nice about making recommendations – *so* not the case in
classical music. If you ask me, this has as much to do with classical
music's "dying" as any other influence. "Dinner music." Hah!)

I went on and bought lots of different versions of things.

People who worked in two of my three favorite record stores
recommended Perhaia. One guy was a perfect Central Casting
"Condescending Classical Music Clerk," but I tried Perahia anyway. It
was nice to know I had "approved" music on my shelves, but the
concertos in my CD player were the ones by Brendel.

Penguin was having an orgasm over Uchida when I was at the height of
buying classical CDs, so I had to try her. I preferred Brendel. The
*idea* of Bilson's concertos was intriguing, as I preferred Hogwood's
Mozart to anyone else's, but I hated the tinky sound of the
fortepiano. Definitely preferred Brendel.

I had Barenboim on LP. Very scratchy. Returned them they sounded so
bad. Never bothered with him on CD.

I bought a bunch of Richard Goode a few years back. They've long since
gone to the second-hand store.

I started listening to this music again a few months back when I
bought all the new series of Brendel's Mozart. Which I love,
incidentally. I hope he finishes both the concertos and the sonatas.
I've been listening to Perahia anew, too. I'm liking him a bit more
than I once did.

God. If you knew how intently I listen to Brendel, you would realize
that to me, what he plays is anything but "dinner music."

Do know I'll factor in your opinion on what I like when I consider
your other recommendations.

Thank you. And good day, sir.

[Marcus Maroney]

Post by Daniel
"Dinner music"? No way. (Why must classical music fans be so
condescending, incidentally? Enthusiasts in any field I can think of
are usually nice about making recommendations ? *so* not the case in
classical music. If you ask me, this has as much to do with classical
music's "dying" as any other influence. "Dinner music." Hah!)

You seem to misunderstand my point. The music itself is not
inherently dinner music, it's what the performer does with it -
pretty, unintrusive, dynamically reserved, rhythmically a bit uncrisp
- all in all, a bit anonymous (sounds like many very good performances
of the works I've heard at conservatory concerts). Perhaps most of
the blame goes to Marriner, who seems to have the chronic problem of
not being able to whip up any excitement in any piece.

You go on to list all these recordings you've heard but give no
convincing musical reason than preferring one over the other, just "I
had this one and prefer Brendel"...well, why specifically (or even
rather generally) do you prefer it? It would be great if someone
could point out something in those recordings that I'm missing.

As for Brendel's Philips Duo D960 and his solo recordings in general,
those are a different story - some of his solo recordings I find
rather attractive; however, in each instance I can probably think of
at least 2 or 3 other recordings that are better in all regards.

Brendel's Liszt sonata would be a good example - he plays the notes,
the recorded sound is at the top of the heap, and he can shape many of
the long phrases nicely. However, once you listen to Richter,
Pletnev, Pogorelich, Zimerman, etc. - all of whom play the notes
better, have equal or better recorded sound, can shape the phrases
more interestingly and generate more excitement, shades of piano
color, and have more subtle details (gradations of dynamics,
articulation, pedaling, hue).

Actually after typing this I realize these characteristics are the
reason that I'm not really interested in Brendel as a pianist in any
repertoire any more - he's certainly not a bad pianist, he's just far
from the best or most interesting out there.

Post by Daniel
Penguin was having an orgasm over Uchida when I was at the height of
buying classical CDs, so I had to try her. I preferred Brendel. The
*idea* of Bilson's concertos was intriguing, as I preferred Hogwood's
Mozart to anyone else's, but I hated the tinky sound of the
fortepiano.

They're conducted by Gardiner. Hogwood's pianist is Levin.

Post by Daniel
God. If you knew how intently I listen to Brendel, you would realize
that to me, what he plays is anything but "dinner music."

Again, I'd love to know what musical elements in Brednel's
performances you find so interesting and preferable to the others
you've heard.

Post by Daniel
Do know I'll factor in your opinion on what I like when I consider
your other recommendations.

It's an opinion on what *I* like/dislike, not what you like. The two
are separable, you know...

Cheers,

Marcus Maroney
marcus dot maroney at yale dot edu

[Daniel]

Post by Marcus Maroney

Post by Daniel
"Dinner music"? No way. (Why must classical music fans be so
condescending, incidentally? Enthusiasts in any field I can think of
are usually nice about making recommendations ? *so* not the case in
classical music. If you ask me, this has as much to do with classical
music's "dying" as any other influence. "Dinner music." Hah!)

You seem to misunderstand my point. The music itself is not
inherently dinner music, it's what the performer does with it -
pretty, unintrusive, dynamically reserved, rhythmically a bit uncrisp
- all in all, a bit anonymous (sounds like many very good performances
of the works I've heard at conservatory concerts). Perhaps most of
the blame goes to Marriner, who seems to have the chronic problem of
not being able to whip up any excitement in any piece.

I did not misunderstand you. You referred to *Brendel's* Mozart as
"dinner music."

Post by Marcus Maroney
You go on to list all these recordings you've heard but give no
convincing musical reason than preferring one over the other, just "I
had this one and prefer Brendel"...well, why specifically (or even
rather generally) do you prefer it? It would be great if someone
could point out something in those recordings that I'm missing.

I'm not the one to tell you. I don't know anything about music beyond
what I like and don't like. I don't have an answer to "why?" I just
like it. I don't have the vocabulary, and I don't palabraficate about
what I don't know.

Post by Marcus Maroney
As for Brendel's Philips Duo D960 and his solo recordings in general,
those are a different story - some of his solo recordings I find
rather attractive; however, in each instance I can probably think of
at least 2 or 3 other recordings that are better in all regards.

Well, then by all means, **you** should listen to those two or three.
Be very happy doing so. But don't dismiss my taste as "dinner music"
when I jump in to defend a performer *I like*, **for whatever
reason**, whom a number of you have dissed, to a newbie. Quite
possibly, my unsophisticated-to-you taste is closer to said newbie's
than yours is.

Post by Marcus Maroney
Brendel's Liszt sonata would be a good example - he plays the notes,
the recorded sound is at the top of the heap, and he can shape many of
the long phrases nicely. However, once you listen to Richter,
Pletnev, Pogorelich, Zimerman, etc. - all of whom play the notes
better, have equal or better recorded sound, can shape the phrases
more interestingly and generate more excitement, shades of piano
color, and have more subtle details (gradations of dynamics,
articulation, pedaling, hue).

Ah. Another one I bought when I heard it in a record store. By
Brendel, of course. I didn't know what it was or who was performing
it. I just liked it and bought it.

It's very nice for you, Marcus, that you know as much as you know
about music. If I had anything remotely resembling a talent for making
music, I would try to know as much as you know. But I don't. I
couldn't make music if my life depended on it. I think that may have a
lot to do with my feeling so strong, and perhaps defensive, about my
taste.

Should I be disallowed from listening, or from commenting to a
newcomer who asks about "sound quality" just because I don't know as
much about music as you do? While I have no idea what "gradations of
dynamics" means, for example -- to say nothing of "shades of color,"
or "hue -- that isn't to say I don't experience these things. I just
don't have any way of identifying them other than to say "I like that"
or "I don't like that."

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe all your verbiage might get a
bit in the way, maybe even driving a wedge between you and those you
(seemingly) seek to edify?

Back to what you wrote: I've never listened to any of the pianists you
name here except Pogorelich. A friend of mine buys/bought all his CDs
because he was so cute, which kind of turned me off to him.

Post by Marcus Maroney
Actually after typing this I realize these characteristics are the
reason that I'm not really interested in Brendel as a pianist in any
repertoire any more - he's certainly not a bad pianist, he's just far
from the best or most interesting out there.

Post by Daniel
Penguin was having an orgasm over Uchida when I was at the height of
buying classical CDs, so I had to try her. I preferred Brendel. The
*idea* of Bilson's concertos was intriguing, as I preferred Hogwood's
Mozart to anyone else's, but I hated the tinky sound of the
fortepiano.

They're conducted by Gardiner. Hogwood's pianist is Levin.

I meant to say "Mozart Symphonies." Bad edit. My apologies. I'd bought
all the Hogwood Symphonies before Bilson/Gardiner released their PCs,
liked them, and assumed I'd like Bilson/Gardiner.

Post by Marcus Maroney

Post by Daniel
God. If you knew how intently I listen to Brendel, you would realize
that to me, what he plays is anything but "dinner music."

Again, I'd love to know what musical elements in Brednel's
performances you find so interesting and preferable to the others
you've heard.

Again, I wouldn't know a musical element from a moment musical from a
musical joke. I JUST LIKE THEM, ALREADY. If that makes me persona non
grata around someone of your august taste and knowledge, so be it.

That is really all I have to say.

Good day.

[Samir Golescu]

Post by Daniel

Post by Marcus Maroney
As for Brendel's Philips Duo D960 and his solo recordings in general,
those are a different story - some of his solo recordings I find
rather attractive; however, in each instance I can probably think of
at least 2 or 3 other recordings that are better in all regards.

Well, then by all means, **you** should listen to those two or three.
Be very happy doing so. But don't dismiss my taste as "dinner music"
when I jump in to defend a performer *I like*, **for whatever
reason**, whom a number of you have dissed, to a newbie.

Mr. Maroney didn't dismiss "your taste" -- he expressed his opinion on a
pianist, the same way you did. That you may feel bad because your opinion
may be less informed than his is a laudable sentiment, but don't accuse
him for saying openly (and, I should add, most politely) what *he* thinks.
Or should no musician ever be criticized because there could always exist
some admirer who might feel "dismissed" himself?

Post by Daniel
Quite
possibly, my unsophisticated-to-you taste is closer to said newbie's
than yours is.

Or not.

Post by Daniel

Post by Marcus Maroney
Brendel's Liszt sonata would be a good example - he plays the notes,
the recorded sound is at the top of the heap, and he can shape many of
the long phrases nicely. However, once you listen to Richter,
Pletnev, Pogorelich, Zimerman, etc. - all of whom play the notes
better, have equal or better recorded sound, can shape the phrases
more interestingly and generate more excitement, shades of piano
color, and have more subtle details (gradations of dynamics,
articulation, pedaling, hue).

Ah. Another one I bought when I heard it in a record store. By
Brendel, of course. I didn't know what it was or who was performing
it. I just liked it and bought it.
It's very nice for you, Marcus, that you know as much as you know
about music. If I had anything remotely resembling a talent for making
music, I would try to know as much as you know. But I don't. I
couldn't make music if my life depended on it.

Why should that matter? Music and its survival depend upon its listeners,
not only upon its makers. Being "just" a listener is great -- why
shouldn't one be one?

Post by Daniel
I think that may have a
lot to do with my feeling so strong, and perhaps defensive, about my
taste.

Well, tastes are not frozen. I am quite positive your taste has evolved a
lot, as you say, in the last fifteen years. In another fifteen years your
taste will be "another" taste.

Post by Daniel
Should I be disallowed from listening, or from commenting to a
newcomer who asks about "sound quality" just because I don't know as
much about music as you do?

I don't think that was being said or implied.

Post by Daniel
While I have no idea what "gradations of
dynamics" means, for example -- to say nothing of "shades of color,"
or "hue -- that isn't to say I don't experience these things. I just
don't have any way of identifying them other than to say "I like that"
or "I don't like that."

Well, that is certainly useful at some level of discourse, but not
sufficient in order to communicate one's experience to others.

Post by Daniel
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe all your verbiage might get a
bit in the way, maybe even driving a wedge between you and those you
(seemingly) seek to edify?

I seriously doubt it. While communicating in words the very "essence" of
the musical experience is impossible, even an imperfect or impressionistic
or reductionist account of it is to be preferred to nothing.

Post by Daniel
Back to what you wrote: I've never listened to any of the pianists you
name here except Pogorelich.

Your candor in saying that is appreciated. Wouldn't it be more useful to
actually try and compare on your own some of the other recordings
mentioned in this thread rather than getting upset at those who did it
already and dare mention it, as well as express their judgment?
Nobody can guarantee to you that you would like Richter more than
Brendel but there is a good chance that you would. What would then be more
important: one's hurt vanity or one's having enriched one's musical
experience with something new, equally valuable or perhaps even more so
than past encounters in the same repertoire?

Post by Daniel
A friend of mine buys/bought all his CDs
because he was so cute, which kind of turned me off to him.

Post by Marcus Maroney

Post by Daniel
God. If you knew how intently I listen to Brendel, you would realize
that to me, what he plays is anything but "dinner music."

Again, I'd love to know what musical elements in Brednel's
performances you find so interesting and preferable to the others
you've heard.

Again, I wouldn't know a musical element from a moment musical from a
musical joke. I JUST LIKE THEM, ALREADY. If that makes me persona non
grata around someone of your august taste and knowledge, so be it.

He never said that! He actually offered a hand and asked you to share how
you felt about those performances, at whatever level you were ready to
express that. If you think that was a nasty and arrogant posting, you
haven't been around much. . .


regards,
SG

[Simon Roberts]

Post by Daniel
It's very nice for you, Marcus, that you know as much as you know
about music. If I had anything remotely resembling a talent for making
music, I would try to know as much as you know. But I don't. I
couldn't make music if my life depended on it. I think that may have a
lot to do with my feeling so strong, and perhaps defensive, about my
taste.

I don't think you have to "anything remotely resembling a talent for making
music" to be a good listener, or at least to be able to explain why you
(dis)like something.

Post by Daniel
Should I be disallowed from listening, or from commenting to a
newcomer who asks about "sound quality" just because I don't know as
much about music as you do?

I think you're being a bit defensive. Has anyone suggested that?

While I have no idea what "gradations of

Post by Daniel
dynamics" means, for example -- to say nothing of "shades of color,"
or "hue -- that isn't to say I don't experience these things. I just
don't have any way of identifying them other than to say "I like that"
or "I don't like that."

If you can't explain, that's fine. But surely you don't think it's unreasonable
for someone who's seeking recommendations to ask for reasons why you (dis)like
something (unless he's merely conducting a survey to find out what's the
most/least popular recording of x). Without such an explanation he'll never
know whether he will react similarly (unless he's already figured out your
taste).

Post by Daniel
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe all your verbiage might get a
bit in the way, maybe even driving a wedge between you and those you
(seemingly) seek to edify?

A condescending manner might do that, but I don't see how use of the sort of
language quoted above would do that. You can't possibly "edify" or discuss
performances and why you (dis)like them without words, and some words work
better than others. The words you quote above aren't obscurely technical.

Post by Daniel
Back to what you wrote: I've never listened to any of the pianists you
name here except Pogorelich.

Why don't you drop the defensiveness and do a bit of comparative listening? If
you're afraid you won't be able to hear the differences, I bet that's not the
case. In many instances it will be immediate; the subtleties will reveal
themselves later as you become more experienced. It may be that, when you're
done, you still like Brendel best. If so, fine - it's you who's using your
ears, not anyone else.

A friend of mine buys/bought all his CDs

Post by Daniel
because he was so cute, which kind of turned me off to him.

Perhaps you should try some of his more recent ones - the face that peers out
from the Chopin Scherzi booklet is not as pretty as it once was, to put it
mildly.

Simon

[Marcus Maroney]

Post by Daniel
I did not misunderstand you. You referred to *Brendel's* Mozart as
"dinner music."

In your post you said "this music" is not dinner music. To me that
refers to the composer. But I'm glad we've reached mutual
understanding here.

Post by Daniel
I'm not the one to tell you. I don't know anything about music beyond
what I like and don't like. I don't have an answer to "why?" I just
like it.

That's all good but really isn't helpful when people are trying to
compare recordings. It's best to try and offer objective descriptions
of the musical qualities of a performance and let the reader decide
whether those aspects appeal to him/her. Of course, it's impossible
to be 100% objective there, but descriptions of recordings that make
an effort at this are much more valuable than "I just like it", a
rather feckless statement (of course you like it, that's not an issue
here) that really adds nothing to the discussion. If you like
something and want further recommendations along its lines, you would
need to try to describe what you like about it (not saying you're
looking for such information, but that's kind of the point of this
newsgroup, and the request of the OP of this thread).

Post by Daniel
But don't dismiss my taste as "dinner music"

I fail to see from where your jump in logic came. I dismissed the
recording itself as dinner music, not your taste.

Post by Daniel
when I jump in to defend a performer *I like*

Saying "I just like it" is a pretty weak defense for anything in the
world.

Post by Daniel
Quite
possibly, my unsophisticated-to-you taste is closer to said newbie's
than yours is.

I doubt anyone wants this discussion to take the direction of what is
and isn't quite possible.

Post by Daniel
I think that may have a
lot to do with my feeling so strong, and perhaps defensive, about my
taste.

I fail to see why one would get defensive about something that isn't
under attack. Again, I was discussing a set of recordings on their
grounds. Frankly, I don't really care whether you like them or not.
I was offering information on them from my point of view which you
seem to take as a personal assault.

Post by Daniel
Should I be disallowed from listening, or from commenting to a
newcomer who asks about "sound quality" just because I don't know as
much about music as you do?

Of course not, but you made no such comment about "sound quality".

Post by Daniel
While I have no idea what "gradations of
dynamics" means, for example -- to say nothing of "shades of color,"
or "hue -- that isn't to say I don't experience these things. I just
don't have any way of identifying them other than to say "I like that"
or "I don't like that."

Again, why the egocentricity? My comments were general information
for the entire newsgroup, not you specifically. Aside from that,
these phrases are quite basic terms (I'm assuming people here know
what a "gradation" is and know what "dynamics" are...put the two
together and what do you get?).

Post by Daniel
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe all your verbiage might get a
bit in the way, maybe even driving a wedge between you and those you
(seemingly) seek to edify?

Nope. I'm not talking about the way a pianist emphasizes the raised
4th degree of the Italian 6th chord immediately preceding the dominant
prolongation that leads to the recapitulation in the sonata-rondo
finale, which would definitely be a pedantic statement with no place
in this newsgroup (unless someone specifically asked about something
like that...). The terms I used are present in just about every
review one reads.

Post by Daniel
Back to what you wrote: I've never listened to any of the pianists you
name here except Pogorelich. A friend of mine buys/bought all his CDs
because he was so cute, which kind of turned me off to him.

He looks like a snake charmer to me.

Post by Daniel
I meant to say "Mozart Symphonies." Bad edit. My apologies. I'd bought
all the Hogwood Symphonies before Bilson/Gardiner released their PCs,
liked them, and assumed I'd like Bilson/Gardiner.

Why would one assume they'd like Bilson/Gardiner based on Hogwood...?

Post by Daniel
Again, I wouldn't know a musical element from a moment musical from a
musical joke. I JUST LIKE THEM, ALREADY. If that makes me persona non
grata around someone of your august taste and knowledge, so be it.

Well, it would certainly save people a lot of money if "I just like
it, already" was all that was needed in a review of a work of art.
Imagine - Gramophone could be a 3 page flyer, with "Like it" or
"Dislike it" check boxes for each CD with a reviewer's initials in the
appropriate box. Or a smiley or frowny face after each one.

Cheers,

Marcus Maroney
marcus dot maroney at yale dot edu

[Marcus Maroney]

Post by giselle

3-Brahms Concerto pour Violon Perlman EMI 724356699229

Gilels.

He plays the violin, too?!?

But really - Perlman is not the best choice - get Oistrakh/Szell,
recently reissued on EMI's Great Recordings of the Century (the same
series the Perlman you've listed is on). The violin is a little
prominent, but the playing from all involved is wonderful. Other
versions to consider are Milstein/Steinberg (EMI, again on Great
Recordings of the Century), Francescatti/Mitropoulos (Sony), or
Heifetz/Reiner (RCA). These are all in very good analogue sound. If
digital sounds is a must, Mullova/Abbado (Philips) would be my first
choice.

If you do end up getting the Perlman, make sure you get Giulini
conducting (you have the catalogue number correct, but just in
case....), not Barenboim. I find the Giulini dull and stuffily
recorded, but the recording with Barenboim is exceedingly boring to
the point of being tedious, especially compared with the excellently
played and recorded, but a bit too "slick" for my taste, performance
he did with Maxim Vengerov on Teldec.

Cheers,

MM

[giselle]

Post by giselle

3-Brahms Concerto pour Violon

Gilels.

oops. I read only the first two words.
That should be Zehetmair.

[Soun Tran]

I want to have a small classical collection of about 24 CDs chosen from
my wifes and my favorite composers below. These CDs were suggestions I
got from a local Montreal

[---]

HELLO - I think most of these pieces have been discussed quite a lot
already. Try searching these group archives through google - you'll
probably find what you need.

[Mark Stratford]

I want to have a small classical collection of about 24 CDs chosen from
my wifes and my favorite composers below. These CDs were suggestions I
got from a local Montreal record salesman who seemed to know his stuff.

Can I suggest - if you've only got such a small collection it's maybe
NOT time to start duplicating. You're not going to get much better
than Gardiner doing the Magic Flute (#5 on your list) and I wouldn't
look further.
There are hundreds of recommendations on
rec.music.classical.recordings

[James Lockhead]

Some interesting choices, here are a few alternative suggestions of my

1-Beethoven Favorite Piano Sonatas A.Brendel (DBL) Philips 1993 438
730-2

A lot of people who post on this group have big problems with Brendel,
but I'm still extremely fond of his Beethoven. He's made three cycles
of the Beethoven sonatas - I like his middle cycle best of all
(Philips 4125752). As you want a modern recording, Schnabel, Backhaus,
are probably out of the question, but you might also look out for the
recordings of Richard Goode (on Nonesuch - there's a complete set,
also the discs are available separately). And I'd really strongly
recommend the budget price set of the late sonatas by Charles Rosen on
Sony SB2K53531. Of all the Russians, probably Richter's Beethoven
recordings are the best (scattered across discs on various labels),
but they still wouldn't be my first recommendation. If you'd like to
hear Beethoven on period instruments, the recordings that I've been
told are the most impressive are those by Paul Komen on Globe.

2-Beethoven Symphony 1 a 9 Von Karajan Deutsche Grammophon 1961 429
036-2 5 CD

All of Karajan's Beethoven are something I would avoid like the
plague, to be honest. The 1960s recordings are certainly a little
better than the later ones, but still it's completely unbalanced, far
too many strings, a style of orchestral playing which is suitable for
some late 19th and early 20th century music, but not at all for
conveying the subtleties and intricacies of Beethoven. No, go instead
for one of the sets by a conductor and orchestra who have really
thought hard and deeply about this music, about the orchestral size,
the tempi, the balance, the phrasings, articulations, etc., etc. -
such as Harnoncourt and Chamber Orchestra of Europe (Teldec -
2292464522) - on modern instruments but deeply influenced by period
performance; Gardiner and the Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique
(Archiv - 4399002) - my personal favourite, or even Norrington and the
London Classical Players (Virgin Classics 5619432) - you can get this
at ultra-budget price. I've also heard good things about the recent
recordings with Abbado and the BPO (DG 4690002). I think in all these
cases you can buy the individual discs separately as well.

3-Brahms Concerto pour Violon Perlman EMI 724356699229

I think you would be better off with Kremer/Harnoncourt - Teldec
0630131372 - coupled with the Double COncerto with Clemens Hagen

4-Mozart Piano Concertos 20 / 21 Mitsuko Uchida Philips 1986
4163812

A much better bet would be to get the mid-price box set with Malcolm
Bilson and the English Baroque Soloists under Gardiner (Archiv
463-111-2). There are also some excellent single discs on Teldec of
the concertos with Andreas Staier and Concerto Koln. Robert Levin and
the AAM under Hogwood, on L'Oiseau Lyre can also be safely recommended
(Levin is an utterly idiomatic Mozart player who often improvises his
own cadenzas).

5-Mozart La flûte Enchantée (ZauberFlote)(DBL) Gardiner Archiv 1996
449166-2
6-Puccini Turandot Karajan (DBL) Deutsche Gr. 1987 289423855-2
7-Rameau Pièces de Clavecin en Concerts Pinnock Channel Classics
CCS19098

Good choice - have you also looked into Couperin's harpsichord music
(try the recordings of Gustav Leonhardt, or of Kenneth Gilbert)?

8-Tchaikovsky Le Lac des Cygnes (DBL) Ozawa Deutsche Gr. 1996
453055-2
9-Tchaikovsky Nut Cracker Dorati (DBL) Philips 1975 464
747 or 442562
10-Brahms Concertos pour Piano Nos 1 & 2 C.Arrau EMI 7243 5 75326 2 4

An ideal recording of the Brahms concertos is hard to suggest - many
people like Gilels/Jochum DG 447 446-2 (mid-price). I'd commend
Buchbinder/Harnoncourt on Teldec 8573802122. Arrau's Brahms is too
stodgy and ponderous for my tastes.

11-Bach Brandenburg Concerto 1-6 Harnoncourt(DBL) Teldec 4509 95980 -2

All of Harnoncourt's recordings are extremely good, but my preference,
above any other recordings I've heard is for Musica Antiqua Koln
directed by Reinhard Goebel - for a very reasonable price you can get
an eight CD set with all the Brandenburgs, the Orchestral Suites, and
the chamber music - on Archiv 4716562. These Brandenburgs are
notorious for their very fast tempos, and many other radical features!
Do try it out, it's the most envigorating Bach playing I've ever
heard (also very impassioned in places).

12-Bach Solo & Double Violin Concertos A.Manze Harmonia Mundi HMU 2
907155

Also worth looking into the disc of violin and violin/oboe concertos
with Catherine Mackintosh, Elizabeth Wallfish, Paul Goodwin, and the
King's Consort on Hyperion CDA66380

13-Bach Mass in B Minor (DBL) Gardiner Archiv 1985 415 514-2

Utterly wonderful, do also get Gardiner's St Matthew Passion
recording, I promise you won't be disappointed (Archiv 4276482)

14-Bach Great Organ Works (DBL) (Toccata & Fugue) Helmut Walcha Deutsche
Gr. 453 064-2
15-Beethoven Famous Ouvertures Karajan (DBL) Deutsche Gr. (DBL) 474
275-2

The overtures are included in the aforementioned Harnoncourt recording
of the symphonies.

16-Bach Bach Magnificat Gardiner Philips 2000 464672
17-Monteverdi , Claude Vespers of the Blessed Virgin (DBL) Garrido
K617 K617136
18-Mozart 5 Violin Concertos Perlman J.Levine (DBL) Deutsche Gr.
1994 445 535-2
19-Orff Carl Carmina Burana Ozawa Berlin Philharmon Philips 2000
464725
20-Vivaldi 7 Concerti Trev Pinnock Archiv 1995 2894458392
21-Vivaldi Late Vivaldi Concertos Chamichia Sony SK 89362
22-Vivaldi L'Estro Armonico Concertos (DBL) Hogwood Decca 1998
4580782
23-Vivaldi Prince of Poland A.Mauze Harm. Mundi 2907230
24-Vivaldi The 4 Seasons Trevor Pinnock Archiv (DBL) 400 045-2

Vivaldi playing has taken on a more radical edge recently in the hands
of several Italian groups - specifically Concerto Italiano, Europa
Galante, and Il Giardino Armonico. The latter have a big set of
Vivaldi Concertos, I think, which would be very fine, Europa Galante
are on Virgin (check out their L'Estro Armonico, also the maddest Four
Seasons you've ever heard). Concerto Italiano are on Op.111. You
won't go far wrong with any of these groups.

Hope this is all of help!
James

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Richard Schultz
:> 11-Bach Brandenburg Concerto 1-6 Harnoncourt(DBL) Teldec 4509 95980 -2
: All of Harnoncourt's recordings are extremely good, but my preference,
: above any other recordings I've heard is for Musica Antiqua Koln
: directed by Reinhard Goebel
No no no, a thousand, a million, a googolplex times no. You do *not*
give these recordings to a novice. Or to anyone who cares about
musicianship, for that matter.

Gobel is vastly superior to Harnoncourt.

[Dr.Matt]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

In rec.music.classical.recordings James Lockhead
:> 11-Bach Brandenburg Concerto 1-6 Harnoncourt(DBL) Teldec 4509 95980 -2
: All of Harnoncourt's recordings are extremely good, but my preference,
: above any other recordings I've heard is for Musica Antiqua Koln
: directed by Reinhard Goebel
No no no, a thousand, a million, a googolplex times no. You do *not*
give these recordings to a novice. Or to anyone who cares about
musicianship, for that matter.

Gobel is vastly superior to Harnoncourt.
--

If you can afford 'em both...

[Jerry Kohl]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Richard Schultz
:> 11-Bach Brandenburg Concerto 1-6 Harnoncourt(DBL) Teldec 4509 95980 -2
: All of Harnoncourt's recordings are extremely good, but my preference,
: above any other recordings I've heard is for Musica Antiqua Koln
: directed by Reinhard Goebel
No no no, a thousand, a million, a googolplex times no. You do *not*
give these recordings to a novice. Or to anyone who cares about
musicianship, for that matter.

Gobel is vastly superior to Harnoncourt.

Agreed. Let's not forget that Harnoncourt's was the very first "original instruments"
recording, and he had to go out on several limbs to find performers in those days (the
natural trumpet in No. 2 is especially shaky). By the time Göbel recorded them, the
state of the art had improved considerably. But for my money he still didn't surpass
Leonhardt's version on the Seon series, which remains IMHO the best there is.

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnakat."

[Simon Roberts]

Post by Jerry Kohl

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Richard Schultz
:> 11-Bach Brandenburg Concerto 1-6 Harnoncourt(DBL) Teldec 4509 95980 -2
: All of Harnoncourt's recordings are extremely good, but my preference,
: above any other recordings I've heard is for Musica Antiqua Koln
: directed by Reinhard Goebel
No no no, a thousand, a million, a googolplex times no. You do *not*
give these recordings to a novice. Or to anyone who cares about
musicianship, for that matter.

No; but give them to me, please - I wouldn't mind a spare copy just in case....

Post by Jerry Kohl

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Gobel is vastly superior to Harnoncourt.

Agreed. Let's not forget that Harnoncourt's was the very first "original instruments"
recording, and he had to go out on several limbs to find performers in those days (the
natural trumpet in No. 2 is especially shaky).

He recorded them twice (not sure which the original poster is referring to).
His second attempt is technically better but still not something I would
recommend to a novice.

Simon

[David7Gable]

Post by Jerry Kohl
Agreed. Let's not forget that Harnoncourt's was the very first "original instruments"
recording, and he had to go out on several limbs to find performers in those
days

But the Collegium Aureum had no such problems around the same time.

Post by Jerry Kohl
But for my money he still didn't surpass
Leonhardt's version on the Seon series, which remains IMHO the best there is.

Sorry, but I truly hate this set. It's well played but completely bland and
faceless. Much prefer the Collegium Aureum.

-david gable

[Simon Roberts]

Post by David7Gable

Post by Jerry Kohl
Agreed. Let's not forget that Harnoncourt's was the very first "original instruments"
recording, and he had to go out on several limbs to find performers in those
days

But the Collegium Aureum had no such problems around the same time.

It's several years later, isn't it? Besides, did the Collegium Aureum's
trumpeter played an unmodified trumpet (as Harnoncourt's unfortunate chap did)?
My understanding is that most HIP trumpeters in fact cheat a bit by using
trumpets that have been slightly altered by the addition of holes that act as
primitive keys (I may be forgetting the details; presumably someone out there
knows the technical aspects of this and can respond accordingly). The reason
Kuijken gives for using a horn instead of a trumpet in his much, much later
recording of the Brandenburgs is that he couldn't find anyone who could play an
unaltered period trumpet well enough. Either way, I prefer the Collegium Aureum
recording to either of Harnoncourt's.

Post by David7Gable

Post by Jerry Kohl
But for my money he still didn't surpass
Leonhardt's version on the Seon series, which remains IMHO the best there is.

Sorry, but I truly hate this set. It's well played but completely bland and
faceless. Much prefer the Collegium Aureum.

My reaction too (though the Collegium Aureum is far from being my first choice).

Simon

[Simon Roberts]

In article <***@posting.google.com>, James Lockhead
says...

Post by James Lockhead
Some interesting choices, here are a few alternative suggestions of my

[snip]

Post by James Lockhead

2-Beethoven Symphony 1 a 9 Von Karajan Deutsche Grammophon 1961 429
036-2 5 CD

All of Karajan's Beethoven are something I would avoid like the
plague, to be honest. The 1960s recordings are certainly a little
better than the later ones, but still it's completely unbalanced, far
too many strings, a style of orchestral playing which is suitable for
some late 19th and early 20th century music, but not at all for
conveying the subtleties and intricacies of Beethoven. No, go instead
for one of the sets by a conductor and orchestra who have really
thought hard and deeply about this music, about the orchestral size,
the tempi, the balance, the phrasings, articulations, etc., etc. -
such as Harnoncourt and Chamber Orchestra of Europe (Teldec -
2292464522)

[snip]

What makes you think Karajan didn't "really th[ink] hard and deeply about this
music...."?

Simon

[Richard Schultz]

In article <***@drn.newsguy.com>, Simon Roberts <***@comcast.net> wrote:
: In article <***@posting.google.com>, James Lockhead
: says...

:>> 2-Beethoven Symphony 1 a 9 Von Karajan Deutsche Grammophon 1961 429
:>> 036-2 5 CD
:>
:>All of Karajan's Beethoven are something I would avoid like the
:>plague, to be honest. . . .

: What makes you think Karajan didn't "really th[ink] hard and deeply about
: this music...."?

Well, if he thought hard and deeply about the music, it doesn't seem to
have done him (or the unfortunates upon whom it is inflicted) much good.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"

[Norman M. Schwartz]

"aztech" <***@total.net> wrote in message news:***@total.net...

snip

I'm looking for the all time best versions of those pieces which also
must have a very good sound quality: The type of CD recordings that most
critics agree are the ultimate best.

snip

Horowitz said (words to the effect): "Playing Mozart is not a competition."

[Simon Roberts]

I want to have a small classical collection of about 24 CDs chosen from
my wifes and my favorite composers below. These CDs were suggestions I
got from a local Montreal record salesman who seemed to know his stuff.
For numbers 2,5,6,8,9,11,13,14,17,19,24 .
I'm looking for the all time best versions of those pieces which also
must have a very good sound quality: The type of CD recordings that most
critics agree are the ultimate best.

For most pieces, certainly those recorded dozens of times (as is the case with
most of the music listed below), there's no such thing. Even if there were, you
shouldn't assume that they would be satisfying to your ears, which are the ones
that count.

1-Beethoven Favorite Piano Sonatas A.Brendel (DBL) Philips 1993 438
730-2

I doubt if that would meet any of your criteria except perhaps recorded sound.

2-Beethoven Symphony 1 a 9 Von Karajan Deutsche Grammophon 1961 429
036-2 5 CD

This is generally well regarded, but is hardly state of the art qua sheer sound,
especially in the finale of 9 where the choir is badly recorded.

3-Brahms Concerto pour Violon Perlman EMI 724356699229

Safe enough if you like standard slow motion Brahms.

4-Mozart Piano Concertos 20 / 21 Mitsuko Uchida Philips 1986
4163812

Harmless enough, but rather tame in 20. Try Argerich or Goode (albeit mainly
for the orchestra) there, Kovacevich in 21.

5-Mozart La flûte Enchantée (ZauberFlote)(DBL) Gardiner Archiv 1996
449166-2

If you want a period instrument Flute, I would get Christie's instead - better
singing overall.

6-Puccini Turandot Karajan (DBL) Deutsche Gr. 1987 289423855-2

I doubt many would agree with that recommendation. Mehta/Decca instead.

[snip]

10-Brahms Concertos pour Piano Nos 1 & 2 C.Arrau EMI 7243 5 75326 2 4

This strikes me as a perverse recommendation for a beginner; there's quite a
good chance you will find them rather ponderous. If you like slow Brahms,
Gilels/DG strikes me as preferable (and closer to a consensus choice). If not,
Curzon/Szell or Ashkenazy/Haitink in 1, Richter/Leinsdorf in 2.

11-Bach Brandenburg Concerto 1-6 Harnoncourt(DBL) Teldec 4509 95980 -2

Another perverse recommendation, I think - often very slow and heavy. The
Berlin AAM's set has just been, or is about to be, reissued inexpensively on
Harmonia Mundi; try that.

12-Bach Solo & Double Violin Concertos A.Manze Harmonia Mundi HMU 2
907155

OK

13-Bach Mass in B Minor (DBL) Gardiner Archiv 1985 415 514-2

Probably fits your criteria (though there are a few period instrument recordings
of the piece that I prefer).

15-Beethoven Famous Ouvertures Karajan (DBL) Deutsche Gr. (DBL) 474
275-2

This is a very mixed bag, with one or two very good performances and many that
sound like perfunctory run-throughs. While there are numerous excellent
recordings of individual overtures, there's a dearth of really good sets of the
whole lot. Abbado's is probably better than this. (My first choice by a wide
margin is Scherchen's, released by Pierre Paquin, but that won't meet your
insistence on up-to-date sound.)

16-Bach Bach Magnificat Gardiner Philips 2000 464672

Yes

17-Monteverdi , Claude Vespers of the Blessed Virgin (DBL) Garrido
K617 K617136

It's OK, but not, I think, as good as Savall or Jacobs or one or two others.

18-Mozart 5 Violin Concertos Perlman J.Levine (DBL) Deutsche Gr.
1994 445 535-2

Safe enough.

19-Orff Carl Carmina Burana Ozawa Berlin Philharmon Philips 2000
464725

OK. I would take Jochum's instead.

20-Vivaldi 7 Concerti Trev Pinnock Archiv 1995 2894458392
21-Vivaldi Late Vivaldi Concertos Chamichia Sony SK 89362
22-Vivaldi L'Estro Armonico Concertos (DBL) Hogwood Decca 1998
4580782
23-Vivaldi Prince of Poland A.Mauze Harm. Mundi 2907230
24-Vivaldi The 4 Seasons Trevor Pinnock Archiv (DBL) 400 045-2

I've not idea what your interpretative taste is, and for all I know these will
suit you fine; they're all pretty good examples of conservative, English period
instrument style. If you want something more energetic/imaginative/extrovert, I
would suggest Biondi's L'Estro Armonico and Op. 8 (containing the Four Seasons),
each of which is an inexpensive Virgin twofer (at least, that's how they're
priced in the U.S.). For miscellaneous discs of Vivaldi concertos, try Biondi
on Virgin again, and Zefiro on Astree for starters. Or you may like the
inexpensive boxed collection of Il Giardino Armonico's Vivaldi recordings on
Teldec.

Simon

[Richard Schultz]

In article <***@drn.newsguy.com>, Simon Roberts <***@comcast.net> wrote:

:>11-Bach Brandenburg Concerto 1-6 Harnoncourt(DBL) Teldec 4509 95980 -2
:
: Another perverse recommendation, I think - often very slow and heavy. The
: Berlin AAM's set has just been, or is about to be, reissued inexpensively on
: Harmonia Mundi; try that.

I still vote for Pinnock.

:>15-Beethoven Famous Ouvertures Karajan (DBL) Deutsche Gr. (DBL) 474
:>275-2
:
: While there are numerous excellent recordings of individual overtures,
: there's a dearth of really good sets of the whole lot. Abbado's is
: probably better than this. (My first choice by a wide margin is
: Scherchen's, released by Pierre Paquin, but that won't meet your
: insistence on up-to-date sound.)

Where do you put the Bernstein/VPO set (leaving aside the lack of up-to-date
sound for the moment)?

:>19-Orff Carl Carmina Burana Ozawa Berlin Philharmon Philips 2000
:>464725
:
: OK. I would take Jochum's instead.

Is the Ozawa/BSO still available mega-cheap? I got it on one of those
"postage stamp" LPs.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You go on playing Bach your way, and I'll go on playing him *his* way."
-- Wanda Landowska

[Richard Schultz]

In article <***@drn.newsguy.com>, Simon Roberts <***@comcast.net> wrote:
: In article <bhdoaq$rc1$***@news.iucc.ac.il>, Richard Schultz says...

:>Where do you put the Bernstein/VPO set (leaving aside the lack of up-to-date
:>sound for the moment)?

: I was referring to sets of complete overtures - there isn't one by
: Bernstein....

I realize that his recording wasn't "complete," but I question whether a
novice really *needs* "complete." I think that the "biggies," which
Bernstein/VPO covered, are sufficient. In fact, I would even venture
to opine that in place of "complete" Beethoven overtures, a novice would
be better off with a standard compilation of famous overtures that includes
ones like Mendelssohn's "Midsummer Night's Dream" and "Hebrides" overtures,
Rossini's overtures to "The Barber of Seville" and "William Tell," and
selected Mozart and Wagner overtures. Not that I have any idea of whether
such a compilation actually exists, mind you.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You go on playing Bach your way, and I'll go on playing him *his* way."
-- Wanda Landowska

[Simon Roberts]

Post by Richard Schultz
:>Where do you put the Bernstein/VPO set (leaving aside the lack of up-to-date
:>sound for the moment)?
: I was referring to sets of complete overtures - there isn't one by
: Bernstein....
I realize that his recording wasn't "complete," but I question whether a
novice really *needs* "complete."

Maybe he doesn't, but that's what he seems to want, which is good enough for me
(and perhaps him).

I think that the "biggies," which

Post by Richard Schultz
Bernstein/VPO covered, are sufficient.

But it's questionable whether it includes "the biggies" there's no Leonore 1 or
2, no Consecration), and of the rest at least one of them received a far
superior performance (well, to these ears anyway) in his earlier recording with
the NYPO (King Stephan). Anyway, like me, the original poster may not like "the
biggies" (assuming you're right about which they are) as much as some of the
others....

In fact, I would even venture

Post by Richard Schultz
to opine that in place of "complete" Beethoven overtures, a novice would
be better off with a standard compilation of famous overtures that includes
ones like Mendelssohn's "Midsummer Night's Dream" and "Hebrides" overtures,
Rossini's overtures to "The Barber of Seville" and "William Tell," and
selected Mozart and Wagner overtures. Not that I have any idea of whether
such a compilation actually exists, mind you.

I think there are a couple of Bernstein/NYPO discs on Sony that come close.
There are certainly others.

Simon

[David7Gable]

Post by Richard Schultz
I still vote for Pinnock.

I can't stand his faceless sewing machine approach.

-david gable

[Samir Golescu]

Post by David7Gable

Post by Richard Schultz
I still vote for Pinnock.

I can't stand his faceless sewing machine approach.

You'd rather have a sewing machine with a face? That's kind of scary.

Better you gentlemen sell the idea to Stephen King and he will turn into
a multimillion hit.

regards,
SG

[Marcello Penso]

I want to have a small classical collection of about 24 CDs chosen from
my wifes and my favorite composers below. These CDs were suggestions I
got from a local Montreal record salesman who seemed to know his stuff.
For numbers 2,5,6,8,9,11,13,14,17,19,24 .
I'm looking for the all time best versions of those pieces which also
must have a very good sound quality: The type of CD recordings that most
critics agree are the ultimate best.

Tastes vary enough it's tough to find consensus, and even when there is
consensus, it may not agree with your tastes. Music collecting isn't
like stamp collecting- it's really about 'getting into it' in an
experiential way, and that takes time and exposure to a lot of different
recordings.

For the other numbers, suggestions of other best or famous compositions
or ultimate versions. I know its a tall order but I'm new to classical
and i'm about to spend $1000 , so any help will be appreciated Thanks.
Chris.L

For a $1000, you could (roughly) buy 3 versions of the '24' CDs you're
looking at, or get the 24 below plus another 48 at $15.00. Or, you can
go with budget labels like Naxos and get twice the number of CDs. Naxos
recording quality is generally good (with some offs here and there), but
they use lower tier performers - orchestras, though the playing depth/
intensity/ brilliance may be comparable to higher priced labels.

I would think about this, because 142 CDs is a decent starter
collection, and get you exposed to much more than the 'small' list
below.

1-Beethoven Favorite Piano Sonatas A.Brendel (DBL) Philips 1993 438
730-2
2-Beethoven Symphony 1 a 9 Von Karajan Deutsche Grammophon 1961 429
036-2 5 CD

These are okay, but when you hear other versions, you realize Karajan
has a strong 19th romanticism string orchestra emphasis on the music. I
recently got Klemperers on a budget 2 CD, and they work fine.

3-Brahms Concerto pour Violon Perlman EMI 724356699229
4-Mozart Piano Concertos 20 / 21 Mitsuko Uchida Philips 1986
4163812
5-Mozart La flûte Enchantée (ZauberFlote)(DBL) Gardiner Archiv 1996
449166-2
6-Puccini Turandot Karajan (DBL) Deutsche Gr. 1987 289423855-2
7-Rameau Pièces de Clavecin en Concerts Pinnock Channel Classics
CCS19098

The Naxos version of this is also good, for me anyway. Don't know the
performers.

8-Tchaikovsky Le Lac des Cygnes (DBL) Ozawa Deutsche Gr. 1996
453055-2
9-Tchaikovsky Nut Cracker Dorati (DBL) Philips 1975 464
747 or 442562
10-Brahms Concertos pour Piano Nos 1 & 2 C.Arrau EMI 7243 5 75326 2 4
11-Bach Brandenburg Concerto 1-6 Harnoncourt(DBL) Teldec 4509 95980 -2

My first intro to Bach was through Archiv/Richter recordings, which are
faster and fairly intense.

12-Bach Solo & Double Violin Concertos A.Manze Harmonia Mundi HMU 2
907155
13-Bach Mass in B Minor (DBL) Gardiner Archiv 1985 415 514-2
14-Bach Great Organ Works (DBL) (Toccata & Fugue) Helmut Walcha Deutsche
Gr. 453 064-2
15-Beethoven Famous Ouvertures Karajan (DBL) Deutsche Gr. (DBL) 474
275-2
16-Bach Bach Magnificat Gardiner Philips 2000 464672
17-Monteverdi , Claude Vespers of the Blessed Virgin (DBL) Garrido
K617 K617136
18-Mozart 5 Violin Concertos Perlman J.Levine (DBL) Deutsche Gr.
1994 445 535-2
19-Orff Carl Carmina Burana Ozawa Berlin Philharmon Philips 2000
464725
20-Vivaldi 7 Concerti Trev Pinnock Archiv 1995 2894458392
21-Vivaldi Late Vivaldi Concertos Chamichia Sony SK 89362
22-Vivaldi L'Estro Armonico Concertos (DBL) Hogwood Decca 1998
4580782
23-Vivaldi Prince of Poland A.Mauze Harm. Mundi 2907230
24-Vivaldi The 4 Seasons Trevor Pinnock Archiv (DBL) 400 045-2

Try the Solisti Veneti recording (I think on Philips). Brilliant
coloring.
Don't limit yourself to just this. Handel, Haydn, Mendelssohn, Schuman,
Schubert, Rimsky Korsakoff, Ravel, Debussy, etc. etc. etc.

Marcello

[Ward Hardman]

In rec.music.classical.recordings Owen Hartnett <***@xids.xnet> wrote:
: In article <***@total.net>, aztech <***@total.net>
: wrote:

:> 1-Beethoven Favorite Piano Sonatas A.Brendel (DBL) Philips 1993 438
:> 730-2

: Ugh! The choice of favorite artists for Beethoven sonatas is very
: personal. Forget Brendel, instead try Glenn Gould. They're idiomatic,
^^^^^^^^^
Don't you mean "idiosyncratic"? ;-)

--Ward Hardman

"When people agree with me, I always feel that I must be wrong."
- Oscar Wilde

[Owen Hartnett]

Post by Richard Schultz
:> 1-Beethoven Favorite Piano Sonatas A.Brendel (DBL) Philips 1993 438
:> 730-2
: Ugh! The choice of favorite artists for Beethoven sonatas is very
: personal. Forget Brendel, instead try Glenn Gould. They're idiomatic,
^^^^^^^^^
Don't you mean "idiosyncratic"? ;-)

No, with the exception of the "Appassionata," which is quite
idiosyncratic. Frankly, I think Gould gets more things right in his
incomplete set than other complete sets do. When he misses, he misses
wide, like the "Appassionata," but most of the other sonatas are
sublime and beautifully played and intelligently thought out.

-Owen

[Hao-yang Wang]

19-Orff Carl Carmina Burana Ozawa Berlin Philharmon Philips 2000
464725

Naah. Get this instead:
Berio, Luciano Coro DG 471 587-2

Cheers,
Hao-yang

[Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)]

Post by Hao-yang Wang

19-Orff Carl Carmina Burana Ozawa Berlin Philharmon Philips 2000
464725

Berio, Luciano Coro DG 471 587-2

We should come up with a list of "alternates" (compositions, and especially
specific recordings of them) for all of the tired hackneyed stuff that just
happens to have become popular. What you just did is likely a good start.

[aztech]

Hello Everyone, Its Chris.L from Montreal.
I can't thank all of you enough for all the responses I've gotten.
Having been on many newsgroups I wasn't expecting much in terms of replies
especially from a newbie like myself.I really learnt alot so far.I have read
all your posts and have taken all your suggestions in consideration.
You guys really Rock ! uh wrong crowd ... I mean you have Class !
(as in Classical) lol.

I realize I'm too vague, and that asking for the best ultimate recording is
very subjective but I have to start somewhere. I'm not looking for your
personal likes and dislikes (they obviously will play with your
suggestions)but
I'm more looking for "correct" versions: meaning no major flaws and a good
sounding recording but it doesn't have to be perfect.I'm sure there must be
some general consensus on the best conductors or version in a broad sense to
interpret for example a baroque piece like the 4 seasons :Maybe of the
hundreds of interpretations 5 stand out as general favorites wether you like
them or not. My problem is I won't be able to listen to most of the
suggestions I am given before hand and I'll have to buy according to whats
generally more enjoyed and correct and hear and make up my mind on it once I
already own it and can't return it. this is why I wanted the "best" even
though its a loose term at best.

Like I said I'm a newbie to classical .Not to say I haven't heard a bit; I
listen to classical radio / satellite stations .I know what I like so far
but I can't give you specifics in terms of interpretations/conductors, just
composers and moods.

I don't know alot about classical but I do know something about music.
I'm an amateur keyboard player of many years and a die hard Progressive Rock
fan ie : Genesis,PinkFloyd,Yes,RUSH,Elp...

Here are a few clarifications to better understand what I'm looking for.
Price is not an issue I'm not looking for chaep versions i want "best"
versions .
I said I had $1000 for 24 CDs. I've calculated and its actually $725
Canadian dollars = $500 US . The reason for this is its an Insurance Claim.
For technical reasons I won't get into, I can only get 24 CDs and must use
up the entire amount of $ or I loose the rest of the $. I can get double CDs
but most of them already are.I have about 2 weeks to give my final 24
selection.I can change composers and titles if needed but some of these
works I already know and like but I don't know which versions I had.
* ( for reference Ive repeated the # 1 to 24 suggestions at the bottom.)

The first 10 CDs belong to my wife. These are the composers and works she
likes.
# 1 she wants the Apassionta and Moonlight sonatas. the particular cd was a
suggestion we got and she is open to anything.
# 2 we wanted a descent recording of all the symphonies and cannot buy them
individually so which is the best boxset overall. I heard theres a Telarc
version that might be better than deutsche G.
#3 She wanted anything from Brahms for violin.
#4 any piano concerto from Mozart in Forte piano if possible. Again Uchida
was a given suggestion and I see some of you don't like her at all. I don't
know her anyway.
#5 She loves Operas (I don't) and she wants a "moving" version of the magic
flute .I hear Klemperer is better on EMI ?
#6 she wants a "moving" version for Turandot with Placido Domingo
#7 any famous work in harpsicord from Rameau
#8 she wants a "moving" romantic version if that helps
#9 we both like NutCracker and from what I 've read everywhere on the net
the ultimate version seems to be with Dorati on Philips so I'll go with
that.
#10 any famous work in piano from Brahms

Now for my 14 CDs

I like Baroque. Most times I listen to a satellite classical baroque station
and when I like a certain piece its usually Vivaldi this is why I chose 5
CDs .I know some of you think its too much and I'll have an indegestion but
I have to start somewhere and I know I'll dissapoint some but I cannot
randomly take a composer I've never heard before because I don't have the
time to listen for now ; remember I only have 2 weeks.

If this can help :
I usually like "dark" or "minor" moods, complex chords, spacey atmospheres
and when there are emphasised passages I like them to punch. If you know the
group Genesis, they are my favorite group I love their music especially the
keyboards .
I like Bach.I like his organ works and dark powerful atmospheres.
I love Choral works :the intertwining of voices, spacey atmospheres the
powerful calmness it brings. I had a Archiv Sampler with Monteverdi's
Magnificat which I really enjoyed but I cant find it so I took vespers which
might contain that anyways ?


#11 I'm not sur I know Brandenburg but Its a famous composition so i'll try
it. which version ?
#12 this one is highly recomended by many people i might also want to try St
matthews passion which is a major work or should i consider something else.
#13 Again i was told : a major must have work if you like BACH
#14 I know and like tocatta & fuge (in D ?) (the popular one). Who
interprets it better or with the most drama and passion
#15 I like Beethoven in general i dont know what to get ?whats most popular
to the general public?I don't know what to get cause i can't identify what i
like cause it would take too long for now to listen to most of his work to
identify the names of the works I like.Suggestions ?
#16 I like Monteverdi magnificat so I thought Bach's would be as good ?
Should i get Andrew Parrotts version instead on EMI ?
# 17 Monteverdi's best work ? Does this contain the magnificat or nice
choral work? which version for a spacey dreamy atmopsphere.
# 18 I like mozart in general mostly his darker heavier pieces I don't know
what to get cause i can't identify what i like cause it would take too long
for now to listen to most of his work to identify the names of
the works I like.Suggestions ?
#19 I love Carmina Burana. I like it powerful, hard hitting with the biggest
choir possible. What version ?
#20 ? any major work by Vivaldi maybe La stravaganza ?
#21 highly recomended I'll probably give this a try.
#22 Again a major work what version ?
#23 Again a major work what version ?
#24 4 seasons :I know and like this work and pinnocks archiv version comes
highly recommended so unless you have a reason why not to take it I'll
probably give it a try


If you have any questions just ask or email me.
Thank you all for being patient with me and your help is Really appreciated.

Chris.L

1-Beethoven Favorite Piano Sonatas A.Brendel (DBL) Philips 1993 438 730-2

2-Beethoven Symphony 1 a 9 Von Karajan Deutsche Grammophon 1961 429 036-2
5 CD

3-Brahms Concerto pour Violon Perlman EMI 724356699229

4-Mozart Piano Concertos 20 / 21 Mitsuko Uchida Philips 1986 4163812

5-Mozart La flûte Enchantée (ZauberFlote)(DBL) Gardiner Archiv 1996
449166-2

6-Puccini Turandot Karajan (DBL) Deutsche Gr. 1987 289423855-2

7-Rameau Pièces de Clavecin en Concerts Pinnock Channel Classics CCS19098

8-Tchaikovsky Le Lac des Cygnes (DBL) Ozawa Deutsche Gr. 1996 453055-2

9-Tchaikovsky Nut Cracker Dorati (DBL) Philips 1975 464 747
or 442562

10-Brahms Concertos pour Piano Nos 1 & 2 C.Arrau EMI 7243 5 75326 2 4

11-Bach Brandenburg Concerto 1-6 Harnoncourt(DBL) Teldec 4509 95980 -2

12-Bach Solo & Double Violin Concertos A.Manze Harmonia Mundi HMU 2 907155

13-Bach Mass in B Minor (DBL) Gardiner Archiv 1985 415 514-2

14-Bach Great Organ Works (DBL) (Toccata & Fugue) Helmut Walcha Deutsche Gr.
453 064-2

15-Beethoven Famous Ouvertures Karajan (DBL) Deutsche Gr. (DBL) 474 275-2

16-Bach Bach Magnificat Gardiner Philips 2000 464672

17-Monteverdi , Claude Vespers of the Blessed Virgin (DBL) Garrido
K617 K617136

18-Mozart 5 Violin Concertos Perlman J.Levine (DBL) Deutsche Gr. 1994
445 535-2

19-Orff Carl Carmina Burana Ozawa Berlin Philharmon Philips 2000 464725

20-Vivaldi 7 Concerti Trev Pinnock Archiv 1995 2894458392

21-Vivaldi Late Vivaldi Concertos Chamichia Sony SK 89362

22-Vivaldi L'Estro Armonico Concertos (DBL) Hogwood Decca 1998 4580782

23-Vivaldi Prince of Poland A.Mauze Harm. Mundi 2907230

24-Vivaldi The 4 Seasons Trevor Pinnock Archiv (DBL) 400 045-2

I want to have a small classical collection of about 24 CDs chosen from
my wifes and my favorite composers below. These CDs were suggestions I
got from a local Montreal record salesman who seemed to know his stuff.
For numbers 2,5,6,8,9,11,13,14,17,19,24 .
I'm looking for the all time best versions of those pieces which also
must have a very good sound quality: The type of CD recordings that most
critics agree are the ultimate best.
For the other numbers, suggestions of other best or famous compositions
or ultimate versions. I know its a tall order but I'm new to classical
and i'm about to spend $1000 , so any help will be appreciated Thanks.
Chris.L

[James Lockhead]

Hi Chris,

Post by aztech
You guys really Rock ! uh wrong crowd ... I mean you have Class !
(as in Classical) lol.

Or are we Mods (as in Modernism)?

Post by aztech
I realize I'm too vague, and that asking for the best ultimate recording is
very subjective but I have to start somewhere. I'm not looking for your
personal likes and dislikes (they obviously will play with your
suggestions)but
I'm more looking for "correct" versions: meaning no major flaws and a good
sounding recording but it doesn't have to be perfect.I'm sure there must be
some general consensus on the best conductors or version in a broad sense to
interpret for example a baroque piece like the 4 seasons

I know what you're thinking, but I'm afraid such a general consensus
really doesn't exist, least of all amongst very well-known works. I
can tell you that for sure the finest Four Seasons I've heard is that
by Fabio Biondi and Europa Galante, but I'm 100% sure that there are
numerous discerning listeners who would say it's hideous. Some will
say Mengelberg is one of the greatest conductors of all time, others
that he is an abomination; Cortot is regarded by many as a legendary
pianist, but his recordings are splattered with wrong notes. Glenn
Gould was a genius or a charlatan, depending who you ask. The
'historically informed performance' (HIP) movement is either the end
of music as we know it, or a major innovation in recent performance
history which has been revelatory in terms of much of the standard
repertoire, and has extended its remit way beyond the baroque and
classical eras into the 19th century, illuminating so many aspects of
well-known repertoire that had hitherto remained hidden (you can
probably tell I incline towards the latter view). And you'll find
both sides of these diametrically opposed viewpoints from regular
contributors to this newsgroup.

Oh, and if you want to see more lack of consensus, try doing a search
on here for a thread about Marc-Andre Hamelin! :) Or Fischer-Dieskau.

Post by aztech
Like I said I'm a newbie to classical .Not to say I haven't heard a bit; I
listen to classical radio / satellite stations .I know what I like so far
but I can't give you specifics in terms of interpretations/conductors, just
composers and moods.
I don't know alot about classical but I do know something about music.
I'm an amateur keyboard player of many years and a die hard Progressive Rock
fan ie : Genesis,PinkFloyd,Yes,RUSH,Elp...

OK - used to be a fan of such music myself (but truly can't accept
Genesis after Peter Gabriel left!). Just please don't recommend Keith
Emerson's version of 'Pictures at an Exhibition'! :) But it's
interesting to bear this in mind when thinking about which classical
recordings you'll like the most. What's your line on mid-period King
Crimson (their eternal albums Discipline, Beat and Three of a Perfect
Pair)?

Post by aztech
Here are a few clarifications to better understand what I'm looking for.
Price is not an issue I'm not looking for chaep versions i want "best"
versions .
I said I had $1000 for 24 CDs. I've calculated and its actually $725
Canadian dollars = $500 US . The reason for this is its an Insurance Claim.
For technical reasons I won't get into, I can only get 24 CDs and must use
up the entire amount of $ or I loose the rest of the $. I can get double CDs
but most of them already are.I have about 2 weeks to give my final 24
selection.I can change composers and titles if needed but some of these
works I already know and like but I don't know which versions I had.
* ( for reference Ive repeated the # 1 to 24 suggestions at the bottom.)
The first 10 CDs belong to my wife. These are the composers and works she
likes.
# 1 she wants the Apassionta and Moonlight sonatas. the particular cd was a
suggestion we got and she is open to anything.

Infinitely fantastic pieces, I just wonder whether you'd consider your
primary recording of them being on a fortepiano? In the Moonlight,
Beethoven's instruction is to hold the pedal down for the whole
movement, which would cause too great a degree of blurring and
muddiness on a modern instrument (though a few have tried it); on the
Viennese fortepianos that have been clearly demonstrated to be
Beethoven's personal preference, this produces a unique type of
sonority, as if the music were being played in a resonant cave. The
instruments of Beethoven's time really do exhibit a range of
colouristic and expressive potential that would be impossible on a
modern Steinway - I strongly urge you to think about that. I've just
been listening to a wonderful CD of Jos Van Immerseel, with the
Moonlight, also the Pathetique, Op. 126 Bagatelles, and Andante Favori
(Accent ACC 78332 - available through Amazon). This may seem an
eccentric first choice to some, but for me, it's most of the
performances on modern instruments, with late 19th/early 20th century
style, that are the truly eccentric ones.

Post by aztech
# 2 we wanted a descent recording of all the symphonies and cannot buy them
individually so which is the best boxset overall. I heard theres a Telarc
version that might be better than deutsche G.

If that's Benjamin Zander's version, I don't know it but would imagine
it to be good. Gardiner's set is on Archiv, which is part of DG.

Post by aztech
#3 She wanted anything from Brahms for violin.

Do see the post I initiated yesterday about the Brahms violin sonatas.
I really am sure neither you nor your wife would be disappointed by
Kremer/Harnoncourt doing the violin concerto.

Post by aztech
#4 any piano concerto from Mozart in Forte piano if possible. Again Uchida
was a given suggestion and I see some of you don't like her at all. I don't
know her anyway.

Uchida doesn't play them on fortepiano (nor do Perahia, Brendel,
Schiff, etc., etc.). If she specifically means that type of
instrument, I'm sure most would agree that Bilson/Gardiner's set is a
good choice? Or if you don't want the whole lot, as I said before you
won't go far wrong with Levin or Staier.

Post by aztech
#5 She loves Operas (I don't) and she wants a "moving" version of the magic
flute .I hear Klemperer is better on EMI ?
#6 she wants a "moving" version for Turandot with Placido Domingo
#7 any famous work in harpsicord from Rameau
#8 she wants a "moving" romantic version if that helps
#9 we both like NutCracker and from what I 've read everywhere on the net
the ultimate version seems to be with Dorati on Philips so I'll go with
that.
#10 any famous work in piano from Brahms
Now for my 14 CDs
I like Baroque. Most times I listen to a satellite classical baroque station
and when I like a certain piece its usually Vivaldi this is why I chose 5
CDs .I know some of you think its too much and I'll have an indegestion but
I have to start somewhere and I know I'll dissapoint some but I cannot
randomly take a composer I've never heard before because I don't have the
time to listen for now ; remember I only have 2 weeks.
I usually like "dark" or "minor" moods, complex chords, spacey atmospheres
and when there are emphasised passages I like them to punch. If you know the
group Genesis, they are my favorite group I love their music especially the
keyboards .
I like Bach.I like his organ works and dark powerful atmospheres.
I love Choral works :the intertwining of voices, spacey atmospheres the
powerful calmness it brings. I had a Archiv Sampler with Monteverdi's
Magnificat which I really enjoyed but I cant find it so I took vespers which
might contain that anyways ?

From all these comments, I would be absolutely sure that you would
love Brahms's choral works. There are many recordings (the music
isn't generally well-known - that by the RIAS-Kammerchor, conducted by
Marcus Creed, on Harmonia Mundi HMX 2981591, is a favourite of mine.
And of course Brahms's Ein Deutsche Requiem, everyone of the qualities
you list above can be found in that music (except the keyboards!).
You can probably figure I'm something of a Gardiner fan, so would
recommend his recording, but Herreweghe gives what's possibly an even
darker rendition of the same piece.

The Vespers and the Magnificat of Monteverdi are two separate pieces,
though.

Post by aztech
#11 I'm not sur I know Brandenburg but Its a famous composition so i'll try
it. which version ?
#12 this one is highly recomended by many people i might also want to try St
matthews passion which is a major work or should i consider something else.
#13 Again i was told : a major must have work if you like BACH

If you like Bach, do get both the Mass in B minor and the St Matthew
Passion.

Post by aztech
#14 I know and like tocatta & fuge (in D ?) (the popular one). Who
interprets it better or with the most drama and passion

Hmmm - it seems to be generally accepted that this piece isn't
actually by Bach. Some of the most dramatic and passionate
performances I've heard of it are actually those of the piano
transcriptions of it by Carl Tausig and Ferruccio Busoni! :) (sorry to
complicate matters even further!)

Post by aztech
#15 I like Beethoven in general i dont know what to get ?whats most popular
to the general public?I don't know what to get cause i can't identify what i
like cause it would take too long for now to listen to most of his work to
identify the names of the works I like.Suggestions ?

OK - the most popular Beethoven works are the symphonies, piano
concertos (especially the 5th, the so-called 'Emperor' concerto),
violin concerto, Egmont and Leonora overtures, the Pathetique,
Moonlight, Appassionata sonatas, the 'Spring' and 'Kreutzer' sonatas
for violin and piano, maybe the Razumovsky Quartets, the 'Ghost' and
'Archduke' piano trios, the septet. But I'd say that 99% of
Beethoven's output is all worth hearing (a few things you could save
for a while, including the Triple Concerto and 'Wellington's
Victory').

Post by aztech
#16 I like Monteverdi magnificat so I thought Bach's would be as good ?
Should i get Andrew Parrotts version instead on EMI ?
# 17 Monteverdi's best work ? Does this contain the magnificat or nice
choral work? which version for a spacey dreamy atmopsphere.
# 18 I like mozart in general mostly his darker heavier pieces I don't know
what to get cause i can't identify what i like cause it would take too long
for now to listen to most of his work to identify the names of
the works I like.Suggestions ?

For the 'darker, heavier' Mozart, look to Don Giovanni, the later
symphonies, the last piano concerto, the Requiem.

Post by aztech
#19 I love Carmina Burana. I like it powerful, hard hitting with the biggest
choir possible. What version ?
#20 ? any major work by Vivaldi maybe La stravaganza ?
#21 highly recomended I'll probably give this a try.
#22 Again a major work what version ?
#23 Again a major work what version ?
#24 4 seasons :I know and like this work and pinnocks archiv version comes
highly recommended so unless you have a reason why not to take it I'll
probably give it a try

Hope this all helps!

James

[Wayne Reimer]

I want to have a small classical collection of about 24 CDs chosen from
my wifes and my favorite composers below. These CDs were suggestions I
got from a local Montreal record salesman who seemed to know his stuff.
For numbers 2,5,6,8,9,11,13,14,17,19,24 .
I'm looking for the all time best versions of those pieces which also
must have a very good sound quality: The type of CD recordings that most
critics agree are the ultimate best.
For the other numbers, suggestions of other best or famous compositions
or ultimate versions. I know its a tall order but I'm new to classical
and i'm about to spend $1000 , so any help will be appreciated Thanks.
Chris.L

You forgot to ask for the best ultimate of Richard Nanes. I'd recommend
"Nocturnes of the Celestial Seas", performed by the composer. It's beyond
classic.

wr

[Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)]

Wayne Reimer <***@pacbell.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:MPG.19a4cd125fbc3e159897b8

Post by Wayne Reimer
You forgot to ask for the best ultimate of Richard Nanes. I'd recommend
"Nocturnes of the Celestial Seas", performed by the composer. It's
beyond classic.

How does it compare with Rod McKuen's Concerto for Four Harpsichords and
Orchestra?

[Wayne Reimer]

In article <***@129.250.170.82>, oyþ@earthlink.net
says...

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
letters to be typed in news:MPG.19a4cd125fbc3e159897b8

Post by Wayne Reimer
You forgot to ask for the best ultimate of Richard Nanes. I'd recommend
"Nocturnes of the Celestial Seas", performed by the composer. It's
beyond classic.

How does it compare with Rod McKuen's Concerto for Four Harpsichords and
Orchestra?

Well, I've never actually had a recording of the McKuen extravaganza with which
to compare Nanes' profound and inward-looking masterpiece. I only have a very
distant memory of a television broadcast of the McKuen piece. Part of my
remembered impression is that I had difficulty believing I was not in a dream
state of some sort - it was *that* transporting. It would have been useful if
Dante or Blake had been there to describe it and to help cement the impression
in my mind.

A recording of the Nanes, on the other hand, was actually given to me by
"friends" (I've since passed it on to other deserving auditors). It was the
composer's own recording; I don't know how many other versions have been made.
I'd love to hear recordings by Argerich, Brendel, and/or Pollini, to experience
what an impressively diverse expressive range can surely be extracted from such
a masterly and beguiling composition. The Nocturnes are also ripe for
orchestral garb, I think. Maybe that fellow who transcribed Ravel's Gaspard so
beautifully could be coerced into doing the job (the SF Sym. will be playing
that Gaspard transcription next season, btw).

At any rate, to answer your question, I believe that the musical depths plumbed
by Nanes far outstrip what seemed to be merely a festive, if hallucinatory,
trifle by McKuen (in spite of the forces required to perform it).


wr

[aztech]

Hi Everyone, Chris.L here,

Again thanks so much for helping me on my quest.
Consider this a personal thank you for each one of you who replied ; it
would be too long to say thanks over 50 times.
A special thanks to : Owen,Raymond Hall,Richard Scultz,Giselle,Simon
Roberts,Marcello Pens,Marcus Maroney, Abelard2 and especially James Lockhead
who all went above the call of duty and wrote a legthy help list for me.
I've gotten over 50+ replies .I copied and pasted over 25 pages of comments
and suggestions.I've read every word and have tried to compile a list of
your suggestions for your final comments which I will post as soon as
possible.
I've tried to give the type of feeling or work I'm looking for as best as I
could.To help you more :

In general I prefer a bit faster than slower and a bit more aggressive than
soft.I like dynamic and passionate not boring and too correct. I like good
sound quality but in does not have to be digital.I usually like full
textured versions of works even if its "a bit" exagerated or not too correct
versus a thin correct work with period instruments.Not to say I don't like
period instruments either. I love choral works with intertwining voices and
spacey dreamy atmospheres with voices that are not too abrupt with lots of
tremolo and shrieking.
I usually like "dark" or "minor" moods, complex chords, spacey atmospheres
and when there are emphasised passages I like them to punch. If you know the
group Genesis, they are my favorite group I love their music especially the
keyboards .
I like Bach. I like his organ works and dark powerful atmospheres.
I'm looking for an introductory collection to the major works of
Bach,Vivaldi,Beethoven with the most flawless correct yet passionate
interpretations.
By the way # 8 is french for: Swan Lake

No need to repeat your previous suggestions I have them all written down but
now that you know abit more about my tastes if you have further suggestions
please post them. It can be simple if you lack time just 1 liners :my # ,
your suggestion : composer ,label and a quick comment.

Please take the time to read the following 24 descriptions it should help
you help me further. Thank-you.

The first 10 CDs belong to my wife. These are the composers and works she
likes:
# 1 she wants the Apassionta and Moonlight sonatas. the particular cd was a
suggestion we got and she is open to anything.

# 2 we wanted a descent recording of all the symphonies and cannot buy them
individually so which is the best boxset overall. I heard theres a Teldec
version that might be better than deutsche G.

#3 She wanted anything from Brahms for violin.

#4 any piano concerto from Mozart in Forte piano if possible. Again Uchida
was a given suggestion and I see some of you don't like her at all. I don't
know her anyway.

#5 She loves Operas (* I don't) and she wants a "moving" version of the
magic flute .I hear Klemperer is better on EMI ?

#6 she wants a "moving" version for Turandot with Placido Domingo

#7 any famous work in harpsicord from Rameau

#8 Is Swan Lake : she wants a "moving" romantic version if that helps

#9 we both like NutCracker and from what I 've read everywhere on the net
the ultimate version seems to be with Dorati on Philips so I'll go with
that.

#10 any famous work in piano from Brahms

my 14 CDs :

#11 I'm not sur I know Brandenburg but Its a famous composition so i'll try
it. which version ?

#12 this one is highly recomended by many people i might also want to try St
matthews passion which is a major work or should i consider something else.

#13 Again i was told : a major must have work if you like BACH

#14 I know and like tocatta & fuge in D minor. Who
interprets it better or with the most drama and passion

#15 I like Beethoven in general i dont know what to get ?whats most popular
?I don't know what to get cause i can't identify what i like cause it would
take too long for now to listen to most of his work to identify the names of
the works I like.Suggestions ?

#16 I like Monteverdi magnificat so I thought Bach's would be as good ?
Should i get Andrew Parrotts version instead on EMI ?

# 17 Monteverdi's best work ? Does this contain the magnificat or nice
choral work? which version for a spacey dreamy atmopsphere.

# 18 I like mozart in general mostly his darker heavier pieces I don't know
what to get cause i can't identify what i like cause it would take too long
for now to listen to most of his work to identify the names of
the works I like.Suggestions ?

#19 I love Carmina Burana. I like it powerful, hard hitting with the biggest
choir possible. What version ?

#20 ? any major work by Vivaldi maybe La stravaganza ?

#21 highly recomended I'll probably give this a try.

#22 Again a major work what version ?

#23 Again a major work what version ?

#24 4 seasons :I know and like this work and Pinnocks Archiv version comes
highly recommended so unless you have a reason why not to take it I'll
probably give it a try


If you have any questions just ask or email me.
Thank you all for being patient with me and your help is Really appreciated.

Chris.L

Original List :

1-Beethoven Favorite Piano Sonatas A.Brendel (DBL) Philips 1993 438 730-2

2-Beethoven Symphony 1 a 9 Von Karajan Deutsche Grammophon 1961 429 036-2
5 CD

3-Brahms Concerto pour Violon Perlman EMI 724356699229

4-Mozart Piano Concertos 20 / 21 Mitsuko Uchida Philips 1986 4163812

5-Mozart La flûte Enchantée (ZauberFlote)(DBL) Gardiner Archiv 1996
449166-2

6-Puccini Turandot Karajan (DBL) Deutsche Gr. 1987 289423855-2

7-Rameau Pièces de Clavecin en Concerts Pinnock Channel Classics CCS19098

8-Tchaikovsky Le Lac des Cygnes (DBL) Ozawa Deutsche Gr. 1996 453055-2

9-Tchaikovsky Nut Cracker Dorati (DBL) Philips 1975 464 747
or 442562

10-Brahms Concertos pour Piano Nos 1 & 2 C.Arrau EMI 7243 5 75326 2 4

11-Bach Brandenburg Concerto 1-6 Harnoncourt(DBL) Teldec 4509 95980 -2

12-Bach Solo & Double Violin Concertos A.Manze Harmonia Mundi HMU 2 907155

13-Bach Mass in B Minor (DBL) Gardiner Archiv 1985 415 514-2

14-Bach Great Organ Works (DBL) (Toccata & Fugue) Helmut Walcha Deutsche Gr.

453 064-2

15-Beethoven Famous Ouvertures Karajan (DBL) Deutsche Gr. (DBL) 474 275-2

16-Bach Bach Magnificat Gardiner Philips 2000 464672

17-Monteverdi , Claude Vespers of the Blessed Virgin (DBL) Garrido
K617 K617136

18-Mozart 5 Violin Concertos Perlman J.Levine (DBL) Deutsche Gr. 1994
445 535-2

19-Orff Carl Carmina Burana Ozawa Berlin Philharmon Philips 2000 464725

20-Vivaldi 7 Concerti Trev Pinnock Archiv 1995 2894458392

21-Vivaldi Late Vivaldi Concertos Chamichia Sony SK 89362

22-Vivaldi L'Estro Armonico Concertos (DBL) Hogwood Decca 1998 4580782

23-Vivaldi Prince of Poland A.Mauze Harm. Mundi 2907230

24-Vivaldi The 4 Seasons Trevor Pinnock Archiv (DBL) 400 045-2

I want to have a small classical collection of about 24 CDs chosen from
my wifes and my favorite composers below. These CDs were suggestions I
got from a local Montreal record salesman who seemed to know his stuff.
For numbers 2,5,6,8,9,11,13,14,17,19,24 .
I'm looking for the all time best versions of those pieces which also
must have a very good sound quality: The type of CD recordings that most
critics agree are the ultimate best.
For the other numbers, suggestions of other best or famous compositions
or ultimate versions. I know its a tall order but I'm new to classical
and i'm about to spend $1000 , so any help will be appreciated Thanks.
Chris.L
1-Beethoven Favorite Piano Sonatas A.Brendel (DBL) Philips 1993 438
730-2
2-Beethoven Symphony 1 a 9 Von Karajan Deutsche Grammophon 1961 429
036-2 5 CD
3-Brahms Concerto pour Violon Perlman EMI 724356699229
4-Mozart Piano Concertos 20 / 21 Mitsuko Uchida Philips 1986
4163812
5-Mozart La flûte Enchantée (ZauberFlote)(DBL) Gardiner Archiv 1996
449166-2
6-Puccini Turandot Karajan (DBL) Deutsche Gr. 1987 289423855-2
7-Rameau Pièces de Clavecin en Concerts Pinnock Channel Classics
CCS19098
8-Tchaikovsky Le Lac des Cygnes (DBL) Ozawa Deutsche Gr. 1996
453055-2
9-Tchaikovsky Nut Cracker Dorati (DBL) Philips 1975 464
747 or 442562
10-Brahms Concertos pour Piano Nos 1 & 2 C.Arrau EMI 7243 5 75326 2 4
11-Bach Brandenburg Concerto 1-6 Harnoncourt(DBL) Teldec 4509 95980 -2
12-Bach Solo & Double Violin Concertos A.Manze Harmonia Mundi HMU 2
907155
13-Bach Mass in B Minor (DBL) Gardiner Archiv 1985 415 514-2
14-Bach Great Organ Works (DBL) (Toccata & Fugue) Helmut Walcha Deutsche
Gr. 453 064-2
15-Beethoven Famous Ouvertures Karajan (DBL) Deutsche Gr. (DBL) 474
275-2
16-Bach Bach Magnificat Gardiner Philips 2000 464672
17-Monteverdi , Claude Vespers of the Blessed Virgin (DBL) Garrido
K617 K617136
18-Mozart 5 Violin Concertos Perlman J.Levine (DBL) Deutsche Gr.
1994 445 535-2
19-Orff Carl Carmina Burana Ozawa Berlin Philharmon Philips 2000
464725
20-Vivaldi 7 Concerti Trev Pinnock Archiv 1995 2894458392
21-Vivaldi Late Vivaldi Concertos Chamichia Sony SK 89362
22-Vivaldi L'Estro Armonico Concertos (DBL) Hogwood Decca 1998
4580782
23-Vivaldi Prince of Poland A.Mauze Harm. Mundi 2907230
24-Vivaldi The 4 Seasons Trevor Pinnock Archiv (DBL) 400 045-2

[Marcus Maroney]

Post by aztech
In general I prefer a bit faster than slower and a bit more aggressive than
soft.I like dynamic and passionate not boring and too correct.

<snip>

Your description of what you want in a recording is going to help out
a *lot*. You will get much better and more accurate replies. With
regard to your desires, I would like to offer my suggestions for the
recordings you want.

Post by aztech
# 1 she wants the Appassionta and Moonlight sonatas. the particular cd was a
suggestion we got and she is open to anything.

My recommendation for a currently available single CD containing both
these works would be Pletnev on Virgin. The playing is passionate,
the tone is full, the technique is beyond reproach, and the recorded
sound is excellent throughout. However, you can do a bit better by
getting Richter's RCA Appasionata (coupled with a splending recording
of Brahms' second piano concerto, which would fulfill #10, unless you
want to relegate yourself to a "famous" solo piano work). If you can
stand mono sound, Yves Nat is fabulous in the Moonlight - equally
great in stereo are Rubinstein, Moravec, and Lupu (all of whom offer
gorgeously dark piano sound in the first movement, utmost grace and
lilt in the second, and sufficient dramatic impulse in the finale).

Post by aztech
# 2 we wanted a descent recording of all the symphonies and cannot buy them
individually so which is the best boxset overall. I heard theres a Teldec
version that might be better than deutsche G.

I haven't heard the complete Barenboim/Teldec to which I assume you
refer. The only "complete" cycle I have is Zinman on Arte Nova, which
offers excellent if not superlative recordings of all the symphonies
with quick tempos, lots of excitement, excellent brass playing, and
good soloists and chorus in the ninth. I have this complemented by
many, many individual recordings of the symphonies and you can find
plenty of recommendations for these in the archives of this newsgroup.
A quick few discs to look out for would bet Kleiber's 5/7 and
Fricsay's 9 on DG and Szell's 3 on Sony. If you see any of Franz
Bruggens' Beethoven floating around in used bins (assuming you're
shoppin in the USA), they're worth the price.

Post by aztech
#3 She wanted anything from Brahms for violin.

EMI Great Recordings of the Century 67974 - my favorite recording of
the concerto (Oistrakh/Szell) coupled with an estimable accoun of the
great 3rd sonata. The sound isn't the *greatest* on either, but the
performance of the concerto is second to none and the sonata holds its
own very well. If sound is an issue, get either the concert by
Mullova/Abbado (Philips) or the violin sonatas complete by Suk/Katchen
(Decca Legends).

Post by aztech
#4 any piano concerto from Mozart in Forte piano if possible. Again Uchida
was a given suggestion and I see some of you don't like her at all. I don't
know her anyway.

If fortepiano is a must, try to find the single CD including
Bilson/Gardiner #20 - currently only available new in a $65 box set
(although perhaps worth the investment). If you're fine with modern
piano, Pletnev on Virgin for 9, 20, 23, and 24 is an excellent 2-CD
starter.

Post by aztech
#5 She loves Operas (* I don't) and she wants a "moving" version of the
magic flute .I hear Klemperer is better on EMI ?

I *love* Solti's Decca recording of this (Jo and Ziesak are amazing)
but I feel I'm in a majority here and haven't had a huge range of
comparison.

Post by aztech
#6 she wants a "moving" version for Turandot with Placido Domingo

Well, he's on Karajan's DG recording and that's what you'll have to
get if you want him. Ricciarelli grates on my nerves, and Hendricks
is a bit shallows. I'd give up Domingo for Pavarotti (whose brighter
tone works better in the role anyway) and get Mehta's recording on
Decca (with Sutherland and Caballe both magnificent).

Post by aztech
#7 any famous work in harpsicord from Rameau

Luc Beausejour includes some Rameau on his recital on Analekta -
imaginatevely played and selected, excellent recording, and a
beautiful rich instrument. If you want a strictly Rameau disc, try
Pinnock et al. on Channel Classics.

Post by aztech
#8 Is Swan Lake : she wants a "moving" romantic version if that helps

Taking your criteria into account, if you want a complete recording
I'd go with Dutoit on Decca - dark, full orchestral sound, quite
aggressive in the right spots, always beautiful. I keep this
recording and my favorite set of excerpts, Rostropovich on DG, which I
find sufficient in this music.

Post by aztech
#9 we both like NutCracker and from what I 've read everywhere on the net
the ultimate version seems to be with Dorati on Philips so I'll go with
that.

Yes.

Post by aztech
#10 any famous work in piano from Brahms

If you mean solo piano, go with Gould's 2-CD set on Sony. If you want
the concertos, I'd recommend Richter/Leinsdorf for #2 and Curzon/Szell
for #1 (in that order - I enjoy the second concerto a great deal more
than the first, though I love both).

Post by aztech
#11 I'm not sur I know Brandenburg but Its a famous composition so i'll try
it. which version ?

DG Panorama 459103 - includes the Brandenburgs by Goebel, a thrilling
listen, as well as some harpsichord and violin concertos by Pinnock -
all of which fit your requisites.

Post by aztech
#12 this one is highly recomended by many people i might also want to try St
matthews passion which is a major work or should i consider something else.

Philips 420700 - Grumiaux, et al. The passion and shear sonic beauty
of these performances has yet to be surpassed, IMO.

Post by aztech
#13 Again i was told : a major must have work if you like BACH

I'd pick up the Matthew Passion (and the John Passion) before the
Mass. Get Harnoncourt/Teldec (with Goerne et al.) for the Matthew
Passion.

Post by aztech
#14 I know and like tocatta & fuge in D minor. Who
interprets it better or with the most drama and passion

E. Power Biggs on Sony. The purists will snear at me, but I find it
an excellent, exciting performance of this piece. If you want
something more "authentic", go with Ton Koopman (who maintains a great
sense of drama while sticking to "historically informed" practices).

Post by aztech
#15 I like Beethoven in general i dont know what to get ?whats most popular
?I don't know what to get cause i can't identify what i like cause it would
take too long for now to listen to most of his work to identify the names of
the works I like.Suggestions ?

Szell/Cleveland on Sony Essential Classics (63062) - excellent
performances of the "famous" overtures, from which you'll probably
identify the works you like and can investigate further.

Post by aztech
#16 I like Monteverdi magnificat so I thought Bach's would be as good ?
Should i get Andrew Parrotts version instead on EMI ?

Bach's is amazing - one of his most engaging works (and that's saying
a lot). Get Herreweghe on Harmonia Mundi (excellent in all aspects).

Post by aztech
# 17 Monteverdi's best work ? Does this contain the magnificat or nice
choral work? which version for a spacey dreamy atmopsphere.

Savall on Astree for the Vespers.

Post by aztech
# 18 I like mozart in general mostly his darker heavier pieces I don't know
what to get cause i can't identify what i like cause it would take too long
for now to listen to most of his work to identify the names of
the works I like.Suggestions ?

None of the violin concertos are dark or heavy. I'd recommend getting
L'Archibudelli's recording of two late, "heavy" and alternately
sublimely beautiful and unrelentingly dark String Quintets on Sony (SK
66259).

Post by aztech
#19 I love Carmina Burana. I like it powerful, hard hitting with the biggest
choir possible. What version ?

You're safe with Ozawa for a huge choral sound (and Hampson outdoes
himself), but my favorite recording remains Plasson/EMI.

Post by aztech
#20 ? any major work by Vivaldi maybe La stravaganza ?

Ok, for Vivaldi I'd make two purchases - Carmignola et al. on Sony (SK
51352) for the 4 Seasons and few other interesting concertos, and,
more importantly, a disc of his sacred vocal music (especially the
Gloria) - either Muti on EMI or Preston on L'Oisaeu Lyre.

Post by aztech
#21-24

Vivaldi is great fun, but you're missing out on some great music if
you spend another four discs on him. Alternatively, given what you
like (dark, drama, big sound...), I'd go for the following:

21 - Cherubini Requiem on DG (Markevitch conducting) - an amazing work
and an excellent performance. Comes with Mozart's Coronation Mass
(another work I think you'll love).

22 - Schubert Symphonies 3 & 8 - Kleiber/DG

23 - Verdi's Otello - an easy-to-get-to-know opera that has amazing
depth and beauty. Here is where you can get an *excellent* Domingo
performance (on DG with Chung conducting) in superlative digital
sound, or one of the most magnificent complete operas on disc
(Rysanek, Vickers, Gobbi conducted by Serafin on RCA) - I would
honestly not be able to choose between the two.

24 - To open further avenues, Decca 421 154, containing excellent
performances of Franck's Violin Sonata (a lush work you shouldn't be
without and, IMO, recommendable before his Symphony), Debussy's Violin
Sonata (which will open you up to another world of music without
alienating you), Ravel's Introducion and Allegro (shear magic), and
Debussy's Sonata for Flute, Viola and Harp (an enigma - but gorgeously
so).

Hope that all helps,

Cheers,

Marcus Maroney
marcus dot maroney at yale dot edu

[giselle]

Post by aztech
#3 She wanted anything from Brahms for violin.

In addition to the VC, you could consider the string
quintet op. 111. It's a bright ray of sunshine and she
will fall in love with it instantly. The Boston Chamber
Players on Nonesuch are a great choice- #79068.

I think that Brahms is often at his best in the chamber
works. Other greats are the 3rd piano quartet op. 60
and the piano quintet op. 34.

Post by aztech
#12 this one is highly recomended by many people i might also want to try St
matthews passion which is a major work or should i consider something else.
#13 Again i was told : a major must have work if you like BACH

Someone might have already suggested the St. John
Passion as well. To my ears it's more accessible than
the St. Matthew. It has a rich, dark, unforgettable beauty.
I have a modern recording (Schreier) that might be
a little lightweight to some ears, but I am happy with it.
I think it's budget priced now.

I also have a modern Mass in B (Marriner) which I would not
recommend; the tempi are a little brisk and the recording as
a whole is not as deep as it could be, but there aren't that
many moderns in the catalog. Giulini's sounds flabby to me.
You might want to get two of these: one modern on the romantic
side and one fast-paced HIP.

Post by aztech
#15 I like Beethoven in general i dont know what to get ?whats most popular
?I don't know what to get cause i can't identify what i like cause it would
take too long for now to listen to most of his work to identify the names of
the works I like.Suggestions ?

Aside from the symphonies,
PCs 1-5
VC
all 32 piano sonatas, try to get a variety of pianists
string quartets middle and late
maybe the Mass in C and the Missa Solemnis.

Post by aztech
# 18 I like mozart in general mostly his darker heavier pieces I don't know
what to get cause i can't identify what i like cause it would take too long
for now to listen to most of his work to identify the names of
the works I like.Suggestions ?

You'll love the Great Mass in C minor KV 427.

[Risto Karttunen]

Post by aztech
I usually like "dark" or "minor" moods, complex chords, spacey atmospheres
and when there are emphasised passages I like them to punch.

Then why make the selection so biased, so many works from Vivaldi and
the three great classic B's, but none from Schubert, Schumann, Chopin,
Debussy, Sibelius etc., if those dark or minor moods, complex chords,
spacey atmospheres and "romantic" interpretations are what you like?

--
risto

[Samuel Vriezen]

Post by Risto Karttunen

Post by aztech
I usually like "dark" or "minor" moods, complex chords, spacey atmospheres
and when there are emphasised passages I like them to punch.

Then why make the selection so biased, so many works from Vivaldi and
the three great classic B's, but none from Schubert, Schumann, Chopin,
Debussy, Sibelius etc., if those dark or minor moods, complex chords,
spacey atmospheres and "romantic" interpretations are what you like?
--
risto

In fact, this is where I'd advise to dive straight away into 60s and 70s
Ligeti (get the Teldec disc of orchestral works) and the Orchestra
Pieces op. 16 by Schoenberg. And of course Stravinsky's 'Sacre du
Printemps', if you haven't been exposed to it yet. Or even to try some
orchestral Feldman (you can't get more complex & spacey than 'Coptic
Light' methinks) or Xenakis ('Metastasis' is not a bad choice).

[mazzolata]

Post by Risto Karttunen

Post by aztech
I usually like "dark" or "minor" moods, complex chords, spacey atmospheres
and when there are emphasised passages I like them to punch.

Then why make the selection so biased, so many works from Vivaldi and
the three great classic B's, but none from Schubert, Schumann, Chopin,
Debussy, Sibelius etc., if those dark or minor moods, complex chords,
spacey atmospheres and "romantic" interpretations are what you like?
--
risto

Please, no Schumann !

[Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)]

Post by mazzolata
Please, no Schumann !

Why not? Listen to Sawallisch's set of the symphonies, extremely well
remastered on EMI.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)

Post by mazzolata
Please, no Schumann !

Why not? Listen to Sawallisch's set of the symphonies, extremely well
remastered on EMI.

Symphonies schmymphonies, it's the songs! And the piano music.

[Jerry Kohl]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)

Post by mazzolata
Please, no Schumann !

Why not? Listen to Sawallisch's set of the symphonies, extremely well
remastered on EMI.

Symphonies schmymphonies, it's the songs! And the piano music.

Indeed! (In fact, I wasn't aware she ever wrote a symphony ;-)

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnakat."

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Jerry Kohl

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)

Post by mazzolata
Please, no Schumann !

Why not? Listen to Sawallisch's set of the symphonies, extremely well
remastered on EMI.

Symphonies schmymphonies, it's the songs! And the piano music.

Indeed! (In fact, I wasn't aware she ever wrote a symphony ;-)

A concerto. Just like him.

Nancy Smith (is that the right name?? Reich?), her biographer, says that
the not inconsiderable catalog of her orchestral music seems to be
completely lost. (She spoke at the Schumann symposium, along with
Daverio, Gardiner, and others, at the Lincoln Center Festival in '99.)

[Jerry Kohl]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Kohl

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)

Post by mazzolata
Please, no Schumann !

Why not? Listen to Sawallisch's set of the symphonies, extremely well
remastered on EMI.

Symphonies schmymphonies, it's the songs! And the piano music.

Indeed! (In fact, I wasn't aware she ever wrote a symphony ;-)

A concerto. Just like him.

A concerto like whom? ;-)

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Nancy Smith (is that the right name?? Reich?), her biographer, says that
the not inconsiderable catalog of her orchestral music seems to be
completely lost. (She spoke at the Schumann symposium, along with
Daverio, Gardiner, and others, at the Lincoln Center Festival in '99.)

Much obliged for the information.

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnakat."

[Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)]

Post by Jerry Kohl

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Kohl

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)

Post by mazzolata
Please, no Schumann !

Why not? Listen to Sawallisch's set of the symphonies, extremely
well remastered on EMI.

Symphonies schmymphonies, it's the songs! And the piano music.

Indeed! (In fact, I wasn't aware she ever wrote a symphony ;-)

A concerto. Just like him.

A concerto like whom? ;-)

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Nancy Smith (is that the right name?? Reich?), her biographer, says
that the not inconsiderable catalog of her orchestral music seems to be
completely lost. (She spoke at the Schumann symposium, along with
Daverio, Gardiner, and others, at the Lincoln Center Festival in '99.)

Much obliged for the information.

There is a surviving Piano Concerto, in A Minor yet, by Clara. It has been
recorded a few times, I think.

[Jerry Kohl]

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)

Post by Jerry Kohl

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jerry Kohl

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)

Post by mazzolata
Please, no Schumann !

Why not? Listen to Sawallisch's set of the symphonies, extremely
well remastered on EMI.

Symphonies schmymphonies, it's the songs! And the piano music.

Indeed! (In fact, I wasn't aware she ever wrote a symphony ;-)

A concerto. Just like him.

A concerto like whom? ;-)

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Nancy Smith (is that the right name?? Reich?), her biographer, says
that the not inconsiderable catalog of her orchestral music seems to be
completely lost. (She spoke at the Schumann symposium, along with
Daverio, Gardiner, and others, at the Lincoln Center Festival in '99.)

Much obliged for the information.

There is a surviving Piano Concerto, in A Minor yet, by Clara. It has been
recorded a few times, I think.

Let me break this to you gently: We do know that. If you go back to the thread
and read *very carefully*, you will find references to the fact that *two* of
husband Robert's concertos are in A minor (just like hers), only one of them
isn't for piano.

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnakat."

[Risto Karttunen]

Post by mazzolata
Please, no Schumann !

But certainly we should let the novice judge composers by her/himself,
thus the widest possible selection for starters.

--
risto

[Owen Hartnett]

Post by aztech
Hi Everyone, Chris.L here,
Again thanks so much for helping me on my quest.
Consider this a personal thank you for each one of you who replied ; it
would be too long to say thanks over 50 times.
A special thanks to : Owen,Raymond Hall,Richard Scultz,Giselle,Simon
Roberts,Marcello Pens,Marcus Maroney, Abelard2 and especially James Lockhead
who all went above the call of duty and wrote a legthy help list for me.
I've gotten over 50+ replies .I copied and pasted over 25 pages of comments
and suggestions.I've read every word and have tried to compile a list of
your suggestions for your final comments which I will post as soon as
possible.
I've tried to give the type of feeling or work I'm looking for as best as I
In general I prefer a bit faster than slower and a bit more aggressive than
soft.

I think it would be safe to say that most people in this group favor
more aggressive performances. Few in this group consider classical
music to be "relaxing, background music," of which it is so often
characterized. Not so much in speed (tempi) but in approach, which is
what I think you're really after.

Post by aztech
I like dynamic and passionate not boring and too correct. I like good
sound quality but in does not have to be digital.

I'd advise you to bend a little on your sound requirements, and add a
Beethoven Symphony conducted by Toscanini and a Brahms Symphony
conducted by Furtwangler (or vice versa), just so you can hear what
all the fuss is about.

-Owen

[Peter T. Daniels]

# 2 we wanted a descent recording of all the symphonies [of Beethoven] and cannot buy them
individually

Why not?

Actually no one's mentioned Toscanini, which used to be the gold
standard.

[Simon Roberts]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

# 2 we wanted a descent recording of all the symphonies [of Beethoven] and cannot buy them
individually

Why not?
Actually no one's mentioned Toscanini, which used to be the gold
standard.

That would be a perverse recommendation for someone who specifically seeks
recommendations for recordings with good sound....

Simon

[jeffc]

Post by Owen Hartnett
There is no such thing. Like the One True Religion, there are several
of them. Don't be fooled by best sound quality, it's a red herring.
Go for the best performance. That's like buying a Beatles song by
Lawrence Welk because the sound is better.

No, it's not. It's like buying the version of the Beatles album that has
the best sound.

Post by Owen Hartnett
And frankly, your ears aren't ready yet
to discern between good sound of the 90's and good sound of the 60's
and 70's.

Oh brother.

[mazzolata]

Post by jeffc

Post by Owen Hartnett
There is no such thing. Like the One True Religion, there are several
of them. Don't be fooled by best sound quality, it's a red herring.
Go for the best performance. That's like buying a Beatles song by
Lawrence Welk because the sound is better.

No, it's not. It's like buying the version of the Beatles album that has
the best sound.

Don't be ridiculous, the difference between one release of a Beatles
album and another is *only* engineering - hardly analagous to the
difference between, say, Klemperer and Gardiner's versions of Bach.

[jeffc]

Post by mazzolata

Post by jeffc

Post by Owen Hartnett
There is no such thing. Like the One True Religion, there are several
of them. Don't be fooled by best sound quality, it's a red herring.
Go for the best performance. That's like buying a Beatles song by
Lawrence Welk because the sound is better.

No, it's not. It's like buying the version of the Beatles album that has
the best sound.

Don't be ridiculous, the difference between one release of a Beatles
album and another is *only* engineering - hardly analagous to the
difference between, say, Klemperer and Gardiner's versions of Bach.

So what? He said don't be fooled by sound quality, then compared it to
Lawrence Welk. THAT'S ridiculous. Use your head man.

[jeffc]

Post by jeffc
So what? He said don't be fooled by sound quality, then compared it to
Lawrence Welk. THAT'S ridiculous. Use your head man.

No, he was simply pointing out that the best performance may not have
the best sound. Which has nothing to do with difference releases of the
same performance, which for some reason you brought up.

No, he said, "Don't be fooled by best sound quality, it's a red herring. Go
for the best performance." Then he said, "That's like buying a Beatles song
by Lawrence Welk because the sound is better." First, there's no reason you
can't go for good performance *and* good sound quality. Second, going for
good sound quality is *not* like listening to a Beatles song by Lawrence.
That's absurd. It's merely like listening to a bad recording of Beatles
songs. Why have a crappy sounding Beatles CD when you can have a good
sounding Beatles CD?

[Owen Hartnett]

Post by jeffc

Post by jeffc
So what? He said don't be fooled by sound quality, then compared it to
Lawrence Welk. THAT'S ridiculous. Use your head man.

No, he was simply pointing out that the best performance may not have
the best sound. Which has nothing to do with difference releases of the
same performance, which for some reason you brought up.

No, he said, "Don't be fooled by best sound quality, it's a red herring. Go
for the best performance." Then he said, "That's like buying a Beatles song
by Lawrence Welk because the sound is better." First, there's no reason you
can't go for good performance *and* good sound quality.

You quoted me well up to here. I didn't say "good" sound quality, I
said "best sound."

Post by jeffc
Second, going for
good sound quality is *not* like listening to a Beatles song by Lawrence.

Sure it is (given you replace your "good" with my "best"), if your sole
consideration of a recording is the sound quality and acoustic
fidelity. Some of the original Beatles songs were recorded in monoraul
sound, where you could buy a performance by Lawrence Welk in full
stereo. So it's the performance that counts, not whether it's
audiophile quality or not.

Post by jeffc
That's absurd. It's merely like listening to a bad recording of Beatles
songs. Why have a crappy sounding Beatles CD when you can have a good
sounding Beatles CD?

Likewise, why have a crappy performance of a Brahms symphony with
audiophile sound when you can have a great performance with lesser
quality sound? Which one will really sound better?

I'll also assert that when many newbies here say they want "good sound
quality," they'll be perfectly content with good stereo sound of the
60's (or even some of the "Living Stereo" of the 50's), and more
happier than if they bought a recording of the work made in 2002 with
state-of-the-art sound, but not as good a performance.

-Owen

[jeffc]

Post by Owen Hartnett

Post by jeffc
That's absurd. It's merely like listening to a bad recording of Beatles
songs. Why have a crappy sounding Beatles CD when you can have a good
sounding Beatles CD?

Likewise, why have a crappy performance of a Brahms symphony with
audiophile sound when you can have a great performance with lesser
quality sound? Which one will really sound better?

The one with audiophile sound will sound better. It might not be very
enjoyable, but the point is you don't have to "be fooled by best sound
quality." (Arguing about "best" vs. "very good" is pedantic, since the
meaning of your message was clear.) You can have good performances *and*
good sound quality.

Post by Owen Hartnett
I'll also assert that when many newbies here say they want "good sound
quality," they'll be perfectly content with good stereo sound of the
60's (or even some of the "Living Stereo" of the 50's), and more
happier than if they bought a recording of the work made in 2002 with
state-of-the-art sound, but not as good a performance.

I agree. But you're talking about good stereo sound quality, not Beethoven
done by the Lawrence Welk band. Some 60s recordings are excellent in terms
of sound quality.

[Owen Hartnett]

Post by jeffc

Post by Owen Hartnett

Post by jeffc
That's absurd. It's merely like listening to a bad recording of Beatles
songs. Why have a crappy sounding Beatles CD when you can have a good
sounding Beatles CD?

Likewise, why have a crappy performance of a Brahms symphony with
audiophile sound when you can have a great performance with lesser
quality sound? Which one will really sound better?

The one with audiophile sound will sound better.

To whom? While I'm still on my pedantic stump, I may as well jump on
this one too.

It may be reproduced better, but certainly will not sound better.

Post by jeffc
It might not be very
enjoyable, but the point is you don't have to "be fooled by best sound
quality."

But that's what I said.

Post by jeffc
(Arguing about "best" vs. "very good" is pedantic, since the
meaning of your message was clear.) You can have good performances *and*
good sound quality.

Except many newbies are writing in here saying they need a consensus
recording which has to have "great sound," and respondents are taking
them literally, as in: it has to be DDD, or recorded after 1990, etc.

-Owen

[Jerry Kohl]

I want to have a small classical collection of about 24 CDs chosen from
my wifes and my favorite composers below. These CDs were suggestions I
got from a local Montreal record salesman who seemed to know his stuff.
For numbers 2,5,6,8,9,11,13,14,17,19,24 .
I'm looking for the all time best versions of those pieces which also
must have a very good sound quality: The type of CD recordings that most
critics agree are the ultimate best.
For the other numbers, suggestions of other best or famous compositions
or ultimate versions. I know its a tall order but I'm new to classical
and i'm about to spend $1000 , so any help will be appreciated Thanks.

Holy moly, what a response to this question. First, I'd suggest buying used
CDs from Amazon.com. This will reduce your cost, and if you don't like
something you can put it back up for sale at the same price you bought it
for. Regarding the best recordings, you won't find consensus, but a good
starting point would be the Penguin or Gramophone guides.

BZZZZZT! Wrong! No points. Go back to square one and try again.

--
Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnakat."

[jeffc]

Post by Jerry Kohl

Holy moly, what a response to this question. First, I'd suggest buying used
CDs from Amazon.com. This will reduce your cost, and if you don't like
something you can put it back up for sale at the same price you bought it
for. Regarding the best recordings, you won't find consensus, but a good
starting point would be the Penguin or Gramophone guides.

BZZZZZT! Wrong! No points. Go back to square one and try again.

As opposed to the unfathomable responses he gets on this newsgroup? Wrong,
Jerry my boy. Anyone who actually responds with suggestions for all or most
of his pieces will be giving him highly objective answers at best. Even
then there will be (has been) strong dissention, causing even more
confusing, not to mention more quarreling. No, it's best to start with a
guide that has a *lot* of recordings in it, read the descriptions (rather
than just go by the "number of stars"), and then start listening. From
there, you have a good starting point and can decide where to go next.

[aztech]

Hi Jeffc,
Thanks for your opinion, but the way these wonderful people have been given me
suggestions is very fine by me ...it's just what i asked for .
As for used CDs ...not an option for now. Go back and read my 3 original posts
by aztech to see why.
Yes, I 've noticed there is some consensus on the newsgroup; and especially on
the Web for certain works like : Dorati for the Nutcracker on Philips for
example.Not everyone obviously will agree but most will say: its generally well
liked and an accepted version for that work whether he or she likes it or not.
Being an amateur musician and sound technician, I am aware and I do agree that
there is no substitution for listening ! But opinions help to decide what to
listen to out of the vasts selections available.It narrows it down a bit
I found the site http://www.iclassics.com where i can find alot of excerpts
from all of your sugesstions to figure out what I prefer. Its a long process but
worth it cause I don't want to be stuck with selections I won't listen to again.

Instead of using the guides you mentioned I prefer searching the web on:
http://www.google.ca/ for information.( I'll probably check those guides out
anyways at the library out of curiosity).

Thanks everyone and keep up those suggestions with the criterias I mentionned in
earlier posts by : aztech / Chris.L .
I carefully read every answer I get and putt it to good use.
Chris.L

Post by jeffc

Post by Jerry Kohl

Holy moly, what a response to this question. First, I'd suggest buying

used

Post by Jerry Kohl

CDs from Amazon.com. This will reduce your cost, and if you don't like
something you can put it back up for sale at the same price you bought

it

Post by Jerry Kohl

for. Regarding the best recordings, you won't find consensus, but a

good

Post by Jerry Kohl

starting point would be the Penguin or Gramophone guides.

BZZZZZT! Wrong! No points. Go back to square one and try again.

As opposed to the unfathomable responses he gets on this newsgroup? Wrong,
Jerry my boy. Anyone who actually responds with suggestions for all or most
of his pieces will be giving him highly objective answers at best. Even
then there will be (has been) strong dissention, causing even more
confusing, not to mention more quarreling. No, it's best to start with a
guide that has a *lot* of recordings in it, read the descriptions (rather
than just go by the "number of stars"), and then start listening. From
there, you have a good starting point and can decide where to go next.

[aztech]

Great suggestion ! You learn something new everyday. I had no idea I could search
newsgroup archives in Googles. I tried and its a fabulous source of information
.Thanks.
Chris.L

Post by aztech
Hi Jeffc,
Thanks for your opinion, but the way these wonderful people have been given me
suggestions is very fine by me ...it's just what i asked for .
As for used CDs ...not an option for now. Go back and read my 3 original posts
by aztech to see why.
Yes, I 've noticed there is some consensus on the newsgroup; and especially on
the Web for certain works like : Dorati for the Nutcracker on Philips for
example.Not everyone obviously will agree but most will say: its generally well
liked and an accepted version for that work whether he or she likes it or not.
Being an amateur musician and sound technician, I am aware and I do agree that
there is no substitution for listening ! But opinions help to decide what to
listen to out of the vasts selections available.It narrows it down a bit
I found the site http://www.iclassics.com where i can find alot of excerpts
from all of your sugesstions to figure out what I prefer. Its a long process but
worth it cause I don't want to be stuck with selections I won't listen to again.
http://www.google.ca/ for information.( I'll probably check those guides out
anyways at the library out of curiosity).

Also, try
http://groups.google.com
where you can search the archives of this group!
David

[jeffc]

Post by aztech
Hi Jeffc,
Thanks for your opinion, but the way these wonderful people have been given me
suggestions is very fine by me ...it's just what i asked for .
As for used CDs ...not an option for now. Go back and read my 3 original posts
by aztech to see why.

I see no reason you can't buy used. What's the problem?

[aztech]

Its an insurance claim: I must buy new CDs as replacements .
Obviously later I can always buy used, but thats besides the point ... Do you
have any suggestions according to my tastes which I've specified in my other
posts if you've read them .

Post by aztech

Post by aztech
Hi Jeffc,
Thanks for your opinion, but the way these wonderful people have been

given me

Post by aztech
suggestions is very fine by me ...it's just what i asked for .
As for used CDs ...not an option for now. Go back and read my 3 original

posts

Post by aztech
by aztech to see why.

I see no reason you can't buy used. What's the problem?

[jeffc]

Post by aztech
Its an insurance claim: I must buy new CDs as replacements .
Obviously later I can always buy used, but thats besides the point ... Do you
have any suggestions according to my tastes which I've specified in my other
posts if you've read them .

Only what I've already made. You have some specific requests and you're not
going to find consensus with such a small audience here who has heard all
those pieces. And those who do have an opinion think theirs is more valid
than that coming from music critics such as Penguin and Gramophone writers.
You will find far more examples of recordings of the pieces you mentioned in
one of those books than you will find here, and they will describe the
performance. You can ignore the "number of stars" they give it and choose
your own based on their description. For example, fiery vs. lethargic.
Idiosyncratic vs. traditional. Historical sound quality (bad) vs. clear
modern sound. etc.

[Alan Cooper]

Post by aztech
Yes, I 've noticed there is some consensus on the newsgroup;

You noticed... *CONSENSUS* ... on this newsgroup ?!?
How does he look like?

I think there's a consensus that if Richter or Sofronitsky recorded
it, dk will recommend it ;-)

AC

[Dan Koren]

Post by Alan Cooper

Post by aztech
Yes, I 've noticed there is some consensus on the newsgroup;

You noticed... *CONSENSUS* ... on this newsgroup ?!?
How does he look like?

I think there's a consensus that if
Richter or Sofronitsky recorded it,
dk will recommend it ;-)

Nope.



dk

[Owen Hartnett]

Post by aztech
Yes, I 've noticed there is some consensus on the newsgroup;

You noticed... *CONSENSUS* ... on this newsgroup ?!?
How does he look like?

He looks something like Waldo, I hear, with a big hat. I haven't found
him yet either.

-Owen