Discussion:
Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique
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David M. Li
2005-12-17 22:34:01 UTC
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I'd like to explore more recordings of this marvelous piece.

I have Colin Davis' earlier 3 readings (LSO, Concertgebouw, and VPO),
Bernstein's Century Edition, Munch's in RCA Basic 100, Muti's, and Karajan's
(1965). Surprisingly, I like Karajan's 1965 rendition the best (especially
the first movement), even though I don't care much about Karajan's Beethoven
recordings.

Any other recommendations?

Thanks.
j***@aol.com
2005-12-17 22:53:49 UTC
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Post by David M. Li
I'd like to explore more recordings of this marvelous piece.
I have Colin Davis' earlier 3 readings (LSO, Concertgebouw, and VPO),
Bernstein's Century Edition, Munch's in RCA Basic 100, Muti's, and Karajan's
(1965). Surprisingly, I like Karajan's 1965 rendition the best (especially
the first movement), even though I don't care much about Karajan's Beethoven
recordings.
Any other recommendations?
Thanks.
You already have seven of them. At this point--especially if you've
read all the recent comments on this archived in groups.google.com--you
probably realize that no single recording is everything for everyone,
but nearly all are something to somebody.

How many do you want? Are you tolerant of historical recordings? Get
Pierne (excerpts), Fried, Stokowski (live BBC), Paita, Solti (first),
Mitropoulos, Mravinsky, Beecham (ONF), Chung, MTT, Dutoit, Scherchen,
and one each of Markevitch's and Otterloo's and choose among them. Hunt
for Koussevitzky, too. And try another Munch, just for fun.

--Jeff
d***@aol.com
2005-12-17 23:17:23 UTC
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Post by j***@aol.com
one each of Markevitch's
Don't choose the second (stereo) recording. It's dull and oddly fussy.
Not at all like his white hot Damnation.

-david gable
Ralph
2005-12-18 22:35:41 UTC
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Post by d***@aol.com
Post by j***@aol.com
one each of Markevitch's
Don't choose the second (stereo) recording. It's dull and oddly fussy.
Not at all like his white hot Damnation.
-david gable
On the Damnation of Faust, I have Davis and Munch. How does Markevitch
compare to these two? Are there others on the top tier as well?

Ralph
d***@aol.com
2005-12-18 22:59:35 UTC
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Post by Ralph
On the Damnation of Faust, I have Davis and Munch. How does Markevitch
compare to these two? Are there others on the top tier as well?

I've heard and owned so many Damnation's I'm going to hell. Markevitch
is hands down the best, Davis the worst. (Davis's is the slowest
Damnation by far on records, and his Faust, Gedda, is well past his
prime.) Markevitch is much more like Munch than like Davis, except
that Markevitch is better. Whiter and hotter and crisper and more
intense all at the same time. Not to be believed. Aflflicted with two
tiny cuts so that it would fit on only 2 LP's when it was first
released, but you've already got two uncut recordings. (One verse of
the Easter chorus is cut and the postlude to Merci, doux crepuscule.)
My mind is turning to mush because I've been online all day and I can't
think straight, but there is quite a lot of favorable commentary in the
rmcr archives.

-david gable
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-12-18 08:24:27 UTC
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Post by j***@aol.com
Post by David M. Li
I'd like to explore more recordings of this marvelous piece.
I have Colin Davis' earlier 3 readings (LSO, Concertgebouw, and VPO),
Bernstein's Century Edition, Munch's in RCA Basic 100, Muti's, and
Karajan's (1965). Surprisingly, I like Karajan's 1965 rendition the
best (especially the first movement), even though I don't care much
about Karajan's Beethoven recordings.
Any other recommendations?
Thanks.
You already have seven of them. At this point--especially if you've
read all the recent comments on this archived in groups.google.com--you
probably realize that no single recording is everything for everyone,
but nearly all are something to somebody.
How many do you want? Are you tolerant of historical recordings? Get
Pierne (excerpts), Fried, Stokowski (live BBC), Paita, Solti (first),
Mitropoulos, Mravinsky, Beecham (ONF), Chung, MTT, Dutoit, Scherchen,
and one each of Markevitch's and Otterloo's and choose among them. Hunt
for Koussevitzky, too. And try another Munch, just for fun.
I would specify Beecham's monaural recording of 1957-58 in preference to his
stereo remake of 1959. And I imagine you were just trying to get a list of
favorite recordings down, because Chung, MTT and Dutoit require no apologies
for sound quality. The Chung is, I think, particularly fine both as an
interpretation and as a recording.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Heck51
2005-12-17 23:00:36 UTC
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Mitropoulos/NYPO
Solti/CSO - both 1972, 1992
d***@aol.com
2005-12-17 23:15:48 UTC
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My first question to you would be, What other Berlioz do you know? If
the answer is "precious little" or Harold in Italy, I wouldn't buy
another Fantastique. You already have seven recordings, and while
there are plenty more good ones out there, wouldn't you do better to
explore more Berlioz?

This won't help you, but I love the slow movement from Boulez's first
(LSO) recording of the Fantastique. Boulez manages the long line of
the thing very well, slowly and steadily accumulating tension: his
involvement is total, unblinking. The overall performance has its
peculiarities, including a rather slow march: Boulez made a point of
this, remarking that it's a march to the scaffold and not a galop.

My favorite of Bernstein's three magnificent recordings is the French
one on EMI. Unlike many, I don't find any significant difference in
fundamental approach between Munch's two RCA recordings, although
there's one acceleration in the first movement of the later recording
that I dislike, don't feel the necessity for in context.

-david gable
tomdeacon
2005-12-17 23:39:20 UTC
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***@aol.com wrote:
Unlike many, I don't find any significant difference in
Post by d***@aol.com
fundamental approach between Munch's two RCA recordings, although
there's one acceleration in the first movement of the later recording
that I dislike, don't feel the necessity for in context.
-david gable
You're such a purist, David.

No fun at all!

Do you smoke pot?

TD
a***@hotmail.com
2005-12-18 07:01:26 UTC
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When you say, "...in the first movement of the LATER recording...", is
the EARLIER recording the one that was available only in monoraul for
many years and finally came out in stereo in the seventies?
a***@hotmail.com
2005-12-18 11:01:16 UTC
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Concerning the lp cover design of the EARLIER recording, weren't there
2 different lp covers with 2 different abstract art designs?

For more info on the LIVING STEREO recording, after clicking on the
link below, scroll down page (there are also musical samples):

http://www.classicrecs.com/jacktxt9.htm
d***@aol.com
2005-12-18 16:13:25 UTC
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Post by a***@hotmail.com
When you say, "...in the first movement of the LATER recording...", is
the EARLIER recording the one that was available only in monoraul for
many years and finally came out in stereo in the seventies?

Yes, that's what I mean. Don't ask me why I haven't unloaded some of
these, but here are the compact disc reissues that I have of the two
recordings:

1954 recording (recorded November 14 & 15)
"Munch conducts Berlioz"
RCA 09026-68444-2 (8 discs; released 1996)
This was the first of two large box sets including every Berlioz piece
that Munch recorded for RCA. This box includes the first recordings of
the Fantastique and Romeo et Juliette and one recording of the
Benvenuto Cellini overture.

1954 recording (recorded November 14 & 15)
RCA Victor "Living Stereo" series
RCA 09026-68979-2 (released 1998)
Coupled with the Scene d'amour from Munch's 1961 recording of Romeo
et Juliette

April 9, 1962, recording
RCA Victrola series
RCA 7735-2-RV (released 1988)

April 9, 1962, recording
British RCA Red Seal
74321 34168 2 (2 discs; released 1997)
Coupled with the first CD reissue of Munch's 1961 recording of Romeo et
Juliette

April 9, 1962, recording
Japanese RCA Munch Edition
(Two distinct numbers are given on the spine:)
BVCC-7918-19
74321-56866-2 (2 discs; released 1998)
Coupled with Munch's 1961 recording of Romeo et Juliette

Finally, there is the latest large Munch Berlioz box, which I don't
own:

1954 recording (recorded November 14 & 15)
April 9, 1962, recording
RCA Complete Collections
"Munch Conducts Berlioz"
RCA 60393 (10 discs; released 2004)
This set includes all of Munch's RCA Berlioz recordings including
both Fantastique's and both recordings of Romeo et Juliette and the
Benvenuto Cellini Overture.

-david gable
David M. Li
2005-12-18 13:26:35 UTC
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I have 3 recordings of Les Troyens (2 by Colin Davis and one by Dutoit).
Post by d***@aol.com
My first question to you would be, What other Berlioz do you know? If
the answer is "precious little" or Harold in Italy, I wouldn't buy
another Fantastique. You already have seven recordings, and while
there are plenty more good ones out there, wouldn't you do better to
explore more Berlioz?
This won't help you, but I love the slow movement from Boulez's first
(LSO) recording of the Fantastique. Boulez manages the long line of
the thing very well, slowly and steadily accumulating tension: his
involvement is total, unblinking. The overall performance has its
peculiarities, including a rather slow march: Boulez made a point of
this, remarking that it's a march to the scaffold and not a galop.
My favorite of Bernstein's three magnificent recordings is the French
one on EMI. Unlike many, I don't find any significant difference in
fundamental approach between Munch's two RCA recordings, although
there's one acceleration in the first movement of the later recording
that I dislike, don't feel the necessity for in context.
-david gable
j***@aol.com
2005-12-18 18:50:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David M. Li
I have 3 recordings of Les Troyens (2 by Colin Davis and one by Dutoit).
By that I assume you're saying you have similar quantities of Romeo's,
Damnation's, Benvenuto Cellini's, etc. What did you think of Dutoit's
Troyens?

--Jeff
d***@aol.com
2005-12-18 18:54:55 UTC
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Post by j***@aol.com
By that I assume you're saying you have similar quantities of Romeo's,
Damnation's, Benvenuto Cellini's, etc.

No home should be without a recording of Benvenuto Cellini. I only
need one more myself.

-david gable
j***@aol.com
2005-12-18 19:08:04 UTC
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Post by j***@aol.com
Post by j***@aol.com
By that I assume you're saying you have similar quantities of Romeo's,
Damnation's, Benvenuto Cellini's, etc.
No home should be without a recording of Benvenuto Cellini. I only
need one more myself.
-david gable
Have the book. Have the CD. Now all I need is the commemorative
t-shirt.

By the way, are you finally ready to render an opinion on the Nelson
yet? And which is the "one more"?

--Jeff
d***@aol.com
2005-12-18 22:16:30 UTC
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Post by j***@aol.com
By the way, are you finally ready to render an opinion on the Nelson
[Benvenuto Cellini recording] yet? And which is the "one more"?

I've actually dipped into the new Nelson Cellini on Virgin, and I'm
happy to report that it's better than I expected. I really disliked
the Beatrice et Benedict with Nelson on Erato and wasn't prepared for
the energy he brings to Cellini. I also expected a kind of smooth
nuanceless phrasing, and there's a little more good old fashioned
delineation of shapes and individual articulation than the B&B lead me
to expect. I probably still prefer Colin Davis overall--his Philips
Cellini is very lively and effervescent, one of the more successful
outings in the Philips Berlioz series--but Nelson hasn't shot himself
or Berlioz in the foot.

Hard to say what I think of the singers. Nobody is particularly
offensive but nobody makes you sit up and take notice. The Cellini and
Teresa are certainly respectable. Kunde (Cellini) actually strikes me
as rather musical, but it's hard to judge from the recorded sound
exactly how big his voice is. He's an obvious improvement over the
many awkward moments in Gedda's Cellini for Davis, but he still doesn't
ring through quite effortlessly and triumphantly enough in the upper
register. This is a comic opera and Cellini should exhibit the panache
and bravado of a divo. (Berlioz once referred to the historical
Cellini as "this bandit of genius" after reading the memoirs.)

Of course, Nelson includes more music than Davis: it's essentially the
original Paris version rather than the Weimar revision or, as in the
case of the Davis, a conflation of the two. And some stuff is in an
appendix. If you're as rabid a Berlioz fan as I am, you have to buy
it.

In addition to Davis and Nelson, I've got Gedda/Pritchard/Covent Garden
(1966) on Gala in less than ideal sound and Vickers/Caldwell/Boston
Opera (1975) in English on VAI in respectable sound. I'm curious to
get the Dorati on Music and Arts with Richard Lewis casting in bronze.
It's in Engllish with my friend Josephine Veasey as Ascanio, and it's
supposed to be the Weimar edition unimproved by conflation with Paris.

-david gable
j***@aol.com
2005-12-18 22:27:33 UTC
Reply
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Post by d***@aol.com
Post by j***@aol.com
By the way, are you finally ready to render an opinion on the Nelson
[Benvenuto Cellini recording] yet? And which is the "one more"?
I've actually dipped into the new Nelson Cellini on Virgin, and I'm
happy to report that it's better than I expected. I really disliked
the Beatrice et Benedict with Nelson on Erato and wasn't prepared for
the energy he brings to Cellini. I also expected a kind of smooth
nuanceless phrasing, and there's a little more good old fashioned
delineation of shapes and individual articulation than the B&B lead me
to expect. I probably still prefer Colin Davis overall--his Philips
Cellini is very lively and effervescent, one of the more successful
outings in the Philips Berlioz series--but Nelson hasn't shot himself
or Berlioz in the foot.
Hard to say what I think of the singers. Nobody is particularly
offensive but nobody makes you sit up and take notice. The Cellini and
Teresa are certainly respectable. Kunde (Cellini) actually strikes me
as rather musical, but it's hard to judge from the recorded sound
exactly how big his voice is. He's an obvious improvement over the
many awkward moments in Gedda's Cellini for Davis, but he still doesn't
ring through quite effortlessly and triumphantly enough in the upper
register. This is a comic opera and Cellini should exhibit the panache
and bravado of a divo. (Berlioz once referred to the historical
Cellini as "this bandit of genius" after reading the memoirs.)
Of course, Nelson includes more music than Davis: it's essentially the
original Paris version rather than the Weimar revision or, as in the
case of the Davis, a conflation of the two. And some stuff is in an
appendix. If you're as rabid a Berlioz fan as I am, you have to buy
it.
In addition to Davis and Nelson, I've got Gedda/Pritchard/Covent Garden
(1966) on Gala in less than ideal sound and Vickers/Caldwell/Boston
Opera (1975) in English on VAI in respectable sound. I'm curious to
get the Dorati on Music and Arts with Richard Lewis casting in bronze.
It's in Engllish with my friend Josephine Veasey as Ascanio, and it's
supposed to be the Weimar edition unimproved by conflation with Paris.
-david gable
I hadn't realized this Dorati performance existed on CD. All I have is
Ozawa and a desire to buy a better sounding, perhaps uncut version.
Perhaps the new recording is the one for me.

--Jeff
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-12-18 23:57:47 UTC
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Post by j***@aol.com
I hadn't realized this Dorati performance existed on CD. All I have is
Ozawa and a desire to buy a better sounding, perhaps uncut version.
Perhaps the new recording is the one for me.
Dorati is Music and Arts CD-618. Back in 2000, when the Tower Outlet Store
on Ventura Boulevard was having its clearance sale before closing, they had
*several* copies of this being offered for 5.99! I bought one of them (and
just consulted my ledgers for that information, you see).

Ozawa is okay but you have to put up with Bonisolli.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
j***@aol.com
2005-12-19 03:47:06 UTC
Reply
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Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by j***@aol.com
I hadn't realized this Dorati performance existed on CD. All I have is
Ozawa and a desire to buy a better sounding, perhaps uncut version.
Perhaps the new recording is the one for me.
Dorati is Music and Arts CD-618. Back in 2000, when the Tower Outlet Store
on Ventura Boulevard was having its clearance sale before closing, they had
*several* copies of this being offered for 5.99! I bought one of them (and
just consulted my ledgers for that information, you see).
Fill up ledger with vocal music, did you?

--Jeff
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-12-19 05:34:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by j***@aol.com
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by j***@aol.com
I hadn't realized this Dorati performance existed on CD. All I have
is Ozawa and a desire to buy a better sounding, perhaps uncut
version. Perhaps the new recording is the one for me.
Dorati is Music and Arts CD-618. Back in 2000, when the Tower Outlet
Store on Ventura Boulevard was having its clearance sale before
closing, they had *several* copies of this being offered for 5.99! I
bought one of them (and just consulted my ledgers for that information,
you see).
Fill up ledger with vocal music, did you?
Oh, pShaw!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
tag gallagher
2005-12-19 04:06:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
And Osawa?
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by j***@aol.com
By the way, are you finally ready to render an opinion on the Nelson
[Benvenuto Cellini recording] yet? And which is the "one more"?
I've actually dipped into the new Nelson Cellini on Virgin, and I'm
happy to report that it's better than I expected. I really disliked
the Beatrice et Benedict with Nelson on Erato and wasn't prepared for
the energy he brings to Cellini. I also expected a kind of smooth
nuanceless phrasing, and there's a little more good old fashioned
delineation of shapes and individual articulation than the B&B lead me
to expect. I probably still prefer Colin Davis overall--his Philips
Cellini is very lively and effervescent, one of the more successful
outings in the Philips Berlioz series--but Nelson hasn't shot himself
or Berlioz in the foot.
Hard to say what I think of the singers. Nobody is particularly
offensive but nobody makes you sit up and take notice. The Cellini and
Teresa are certainly respectable. Kunde (Cellini) actually strikes me
as rather musical, but it's hard to judge from the recorded sound
exactly how big his voice is. He's an obvious improvement over the
many awkward moments in Gedda's Cellini for Davis, but he still doesn't
ring through quite effortlessly and triumphantly enough in the upper
register. This is a comic opera and Cellini should exhibit the panache
and bravado of a divo. (Berlioz once referred to the historical
Cellini as "this bandit of genius" after reading the memoirs.)
Of course, Nelson includes more music than Davis: it's essentially the
original Paris version rather than the Weimar revision or, as in the
case of the Davis, a conflation of the two. And some stuff is in an
appendix. If you're as rabid a Berlioz fan as I am, you have to buy
it.
In addition to Davis and Nelson, I've got Gedda/Pritchard/Covent Garden
(1966) on Gala in less than ideal sound and Vickers/Caldwell/Boston
Opera (1975) in English on VAI in respectable sound. I'm curious to
get the Dorati on Music and Arts with Richard Lewis casting in bronze.
It's in Engllish with my friend Josephine Veasey as Ascanio, and it's
supposed to be the Weimar edition unimproved by conflation with Paris.
-david gable
d***@aol.com
2005-12-19 16:40:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tag gallagher
And Osawa?
Never heard it. I could actually imagine Ozawa being fairly decent on
the basis of some of his other Berlioz, but Signor Bonisolli's presence
is not an inducement.

-david gable
Paul Goldstein
2005-12-18 00:54:37 UTC
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Post by David M. Li
I'd like to explore more recordings of this marvelous piece.
Paray (Mercury).
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-12-18 08:24:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Goldstein
Post by David M. Li
I'd like to explore more recordings of this marvelous piece.
Paray (Mercury).
A tad too rushed for me.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
a***@hotmail.com
2005-12-18 06:42:25 UTC
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Permalink
Didn't Monteux conducting the Vienna Philhamonic on London Stereo
Treasury receive praise in the the past?
Curtis Croulet
2005-12-18 07:06:31 UTC
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Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Didn't Monteux conducting the Vienna Philhamonic on London Stereo
Treasury receive praise in the the past?
The reviews that came my way when this was new ca. 1960 found it disappointing.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59" N, 117° 05' 53" W
a***@hotmail.com
2005-12-18 08:06:04 UTC
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Wasn't it praised by Russcol's book LOW-PRICED GUIDE TO CLASSICAL
RECORDINGS?
Curtis Croulet
2005-12-18 15:35:14 UTC
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Permalink
I had Russcol's book for many years. When I moved in 1993, I culled a number of
books, and Russcol's book was one of the losers. I thought of it more as humor
than as serious reviewing. But, you're probably right. I remember seeing a
couple of other favorable notices. I'll have to dig out Jacobson's Berlioz
article in a 1967 issue of HF to see what he said. I know he liked Davis LSO,
claiming that Davis, who was still early in his international career, was a
finer conductor than Beecham ever was.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59" N, 117° 05' 53" W
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-12-18 16:01:48 UTC
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Post by Curtis Croulet
I had Russcol's book for many years. When I moved in 1993, I culled a
number of books, and Russcol's book was one of the losers. I thought of
it more as humor than as serious reviewing. But, you're probably right.
I remember seeing a couple of other favorable notices. I'll have to
dig out Jacobson's Berlioz article in a 1967 issue of HF to see what he
said. I know he liked Davis LSO, claiming that Davis, who was still
early in his international career, was a finer conductor than Beecham
ever was.
Russcol's was one of my earliest buying guides from my teenaged years.
Haven't turned up my copy from the boxes yet; I think it's still there.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Richard Loeb
2005-12-18 15:48:03 UTC
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Post by a***@hotmail.com
Wasn't it praised by Russcol's book LOW-PRICED GUIDE TO CLASSICAL
RECORDINGS?
Oh gosh I remember that book - riddled with errors. Richard
D***@aol.com
2005-12-18 20:57:21 UTC
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Post by Richard Loeb
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Wasn't it praised by Russcol's book LOW-PRICED GUIDE TO CLASSICAL
RECORDINGS?
Oh gosh I remember that book - riddled with errors. Richard
I bought that book. (I buy everything related to records and
musicians.) Shall we be charitable and say that it was superficial as
well as riddled with errors?

After it was published, a review of it was published (sorry -- I
can't remember where; it's been decades) that contained a long
small-print listing of errors. It was funny. The reviewer also singled
out Russcol's persistent comment "this is hearable," saying "my ears
work, so it might be hearable, but is it listenable?"

Don Tait
Curtis Croulet
2005-12-18 07:10:36 UTC
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Permalink
I should add that I have the Monteux LP you mention, though I haven't played it
in years. Compared to some of the others you mention, my recollection is that
it lacks bite, but it's streets ahead of the first two Davis recordings. I've
never heard Davis's VPO recording.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59" N, 117° 05' 53" W
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-12-18 08:24:28 UTC
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Post by Curtis Croulet
I should add that I have the Monteux LP you mention, though I haven't
played it in years. Compared to some of the others you mention, my
recollection is that it lacks bite, but it's streets ahead of the first
two Davis recordings. I've never heard Davis's VPO recording.
Monteux/VPO has been on Belart 461 054-2.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
D***@aol.com
2005-12-18 20:35:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Didn't Monteux conducting the Vienna Philhamonic on London Stereo
Treasury receive praise in the the past?
As Curtis Croulet wrote in a follow-up message, the majority of
reviews found it disappointing. As Mrs. (Doris) Monteux wrote in her
book "It's All In the Music," so did Monteux. In 1975 I talked about
Monteux with Erich Kunzel, who studied conducting with him. He said
Monteux was so unhappy about the recording that he asked RCA not to
issue it, but they did over his objections. Monteux's anger about that
and some other things were what led him to end his exclusive RCA
contract around 1961 and start making recordings for Philips and other
companies. Including Concert Hall in Hamburg in early 1964, where among
other titles he remade Symphonie Fantastique -- perhaps his commentary
about the VPO version.

I've always found the VPO version disappointing too. Compared to
Monteux's four other commercial recordings (Paris 1931, San Francisco
1945 and '50, Hamburg) it's dull and unrepresentative of what he could
do with the music, as Monteux evidently also felt. Quite unlike what he
did with the work, which was hair-raising. He did it with the New York
Philharmonic in late 1959 and tapes of the broadcast are around. The
performance is staggering. Apparently he didn't get along well with the
VPO, although some of their recordings are good, especially Haydn 94
and 101.

I agree with others about how good the 1931 Monteux Paris recording
of the Fantastique is and about Oskar Fried, at least the Moscow
broadcast performance. If one is prepared to tolerate circa 1937 sound,
it's positively spooky. Unique.

Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-12-18 23:56:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D***@aol.com
Post by a***@hotmail.com
Didn't Monteux conducting the Vienna Philhamonic on London Stereo
Treasury receive praise in the the past?
As Curtis Croulet wrote in a follow-up message, the majority of
reviews found it disappointing. As Mrs. (Doris) Monteux wrote in her
book "It's All In the Music," so did Monteux. In 1975 I talked about
Monteux with Erich Kunzel, who studied conducting with him. He said
Monteux was so unhappy about the recording that he asked RCA not to
issue it, but they did over his objections. Monteux's anger about that
and some other things were what led him to end his exclusive RCA
contract around 1961 and start making recordings for Philips and other
companies. Including Concert Hall in Hamburg in early 1964, where among
other titles he remade Symphonie Fantastique -- perhaps his commentary
about the VPO version.
I've always found the VPO version disappointing too. Compared to
Monteux's four other commercial recordings (Paris 1931, San Francisco
1945 and '50, Hamburg) it's dull and unrepresentative of what he could
do with the music, as Monteux evidently also felt. Quite unlike what he
did with the work, which was hair-raising. He did it with the New York
Philharmonic in late 1959 and tapes of the broadcast are around. The
performance is staggering. Apparently he didn't get along well with the
VPO, although some of their recordings are good, especially Haydn 94
and 101.
I agree with others about how good the 1931 Monteux Paris recording
of the Fantastique is and about Oskar Fried, at least the Moscow
broadcast performance. If one is prepared to tolerate circa 1937 sound,
it's positively spooky. Unique.
Someday I'd like to find Fried's earlier (acoustical?) recording, and
compare it to the one by Rhené-Baton. I think you already know how I came
to make an off-the-air tape of that one!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
D***@aol.com
2005-12-22 23:10:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by D***@aol.com
I agree with others about how good the 1931 Monteux Paris recording
of the Fantastique is and about Oskar Fried, at least the Moscow
broadcast performance. If one is prepared to tolerate circa 1937 sound,
it's positively spooky. Unique.
Someday I'd like to find Fried's earlier (acoustical?) recording, and
compare it to the one by Rhené-Baton. I think you already know how I came
to make an off-the-air tape of that one!
Golly....

Isn't Rhene-Baton's interesting? It's so much like Munch's versions,
which some have criticized as rushed. But Rhene-Baton was born in 1879
and an experienced conductor when that was recorded in 1924.

I've always wanted to find Fried's acoustical Polydors of the work
too. I've been able to get many acoustical Polydors by him and others,
but not that. And like most of those records it's scarce-to-rare and
now goes for hundreds of dollars on lists.

Don Tait
Curtis Croulet
2005-12-19 16:44:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D***@aol.com
Apparently he didn't get along well with the
VPO, although some of their recordings are good, especially Haydn 94
and 101.
I read somewhere that he thought the VPO was overrated. I learned Beethoven 1 &
8 from Monteux' recording with the VPO. Years later, I had better equipment and
found that recording to have some strange problem with the sound (sounds like
flutter from worn tape heads to me -- easily audible on the opening chords of
B1), so I don't play it much.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59" N, 117° 05' 53" W
Richard Schultz
2005-12-18 10:23:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <tn0pf.3305$***@trnddc07>, David M. Li <***@y.com> wrote:

: Any other recommendations?

Bruno Walter/NYPO.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
It's a bird, it's a plane -- no, it's Mozart. . .
Dave Cook
2005-12-18 11:18:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
Bruno Walter/NYPO.
Any opinions on transfers? BRO has a cheap one on Enterprise, and curiously
pricy ones (for BRO) of ones from M&A and Nuova Era. This recording seems
to get around a lot.

Dave Cook
d***@aol.com
2005-12-18 16:17:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Cook
Any opinions on transfers?
I don't know any of the transfers of the Walter recording that you
mention (or any others, for that matter), but Music & Arts is a more
trustworthy source than Enterprise or Nuova Era.

-david gable
j***@aol.com
2005-12-18 18:17:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dave Cook
Post by Richard Schultz
Bruno Walter/NYPO.
Any opinions on transfers? BRO has a cheap one on Enterprise, and curiously
pricy ones (for BRO) of ones from M&A and Nuova Era. This recording seems
to get around a lot.
Dave Cook
Dave, I have the Nuova Era and it sounds decent given the provenance
and vintage as I can imagine. Yes, a little shrill here and there, but
relatively good clarity and relatively minimal distortion. I don't
detect ugly effects of overprocessing. Beautiful engineering it
isn't--functional enough to tell you that this is a great performance
by a sumptuous, powerful orchestra.

--Jeff
R***@gmail.com
2005-12-18 11:56:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Monteux's first recording with the Paris SO (1931) is not only his best
but also gives you a glimpse of a forgotten French sonority, esp in the
wind sections.
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-12-18 15:23:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R***@gmail.com
Monteux's first recording with the Paris SO (1931) is not only his best
but also gives you a glimpse of a forgotten French sonority, esp in the
wind sections.
Music and Arts, Pearl, or some other transfer?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
R***@gmail.com
2005-12-18 16:11:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by R***@gmail.com
Monteux's first recording with the Paris SO (1931) is not only his best
but also gives you a glimpse of a forgotten French sonority, esp in the
wind sections.
Music and Arts, Pearl, or some other transfer?
I have the Pearl and heard M&A a while ago. There's not much to choose
between them.
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-12-18 19:10:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R***@gmail.com
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by R***@gmail.com
Monteux's first recording with the Paris SO (1931) is not only his
best but also gives you a glimpse of a forgotten French sonority, esp
in the wind sections.
Music and Arts, Pearl, or some other transfer?
I have the Pearl and heard M&A a while ago. There's not much to choose
between them.
So in other words perhaps the choice should be about the couplings?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
R***@gmail.com
2005-12-18 22:56:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by R***@gmail.com
I have the Pearl and heard M&A a while ago. There's not much to choose
between them.
So in other words perhaps the choice should be about the couplings?
Aren't the couplings pretty identical?
The performance itself is IMO one of the important ones of the
Symphonie Fantastique and certainly streets ahead of the VPO Decca disc
Monteux made in the 60s.
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-12-18 23:56:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by R***@gmail.com
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by R***@gmail.com
I have the Pearl and heard M&A a while ago. There's not much to choose
between them.
So in other words perhaps the choice should be about the couplings?
Aren't the couplings pretty identical?
As far as Berlioz' music goes, yes; both contain the 1931 Fantastique, as
well as roughly contemporaneous recordings of the _Benvenuto Cellini_ and
_Les troyens à Carthage_ overtures. But the Pearl adds two other items:
the "Fête Polonaise" from Chabrier's _Le Roi Malgre Lui_, and Piero
Coppola's "Interlude Dramatique."
Post by R***@gmail.com
The performance itself is IMO one of the important ones of the Symphonie
Fantastique and certainly streets ahead of the VPO Decca disc Monteux
made in the 60s.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
EM
2005-12-18 14:13:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David M. Li
I have Colin Davis' earlier 3 readings (LSO, Concertgebouw, and VPO),
Bernstein's Century Edition, Munch's in RCA Basic 100, Muti's, and Karajan's
(1965). Surprisingly, I like Karajan's 1965 rendition the best (especially
the first movement), even though I don't care much about Karajan's Beethoven
recordings.
Any other recommendations?
Perhaps you should invest in a HIP recording. I'll leave it to the
experts to recommend one.

Eltjo M.
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-12-18 15:23:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by EM
Post by David M. Li
I have Colin Davis' earlier 3 readings (LSO, Concertgebouw, and VPO),
Bernstein's Century Edition, Munch's in RCA Basic 100, Muti's, and
Karajan's (1965). Surprisingly, I like Karajan's 1965 rendition the
best (especially the first movement), even though I don't care much
about Karajan's Beethoven recordings.
Any other recommendations?
Perhaps you should invest in a HIP recording. I'll leave it to the
experts to recommend one.
I know of only two, Norrington and Gardiner. Both have been roasted here
with great glee. I actually like the Gardiner somewhat, despite the
dullish acoustics.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Gerard
2005-12-18 15:30:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by EM
Perhaps you should invest in a HIP recording. I'll leave it to the
experts to recommend one.
I know of only two, Norrington and Gardiner. Both have been roasted
here with great glee. I actually like the Gardiner somewhat, despite
the dullish acoustics.
Is Minkowski's recording not a HIP recording?
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-12-18 16:01:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by EM
Perhaps you should invest in a HIP recording. I'll leave it to the
experts to recommend one.
I know of only two, Norrington and Gardiner. Both have been roasted
here with great glee. I actually like the Gardiner somewhat, despite
the dullish acoustics.
Is Minkowski's recording not a HIP recording?
Hmm, good call, I should give that one another listen.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Matthew Silverstein
2005-12-18 16:52:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gerard
Is Minkowski's recording not a HIP recording?
It's semi-HIP (or HIP-influenced), since it's played by the Mahler Chamber
Orchestra on modern instruments.

Matty
Richard Schultz
2005-12-18 15:53:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <***@207.217.125.201>, Matthew B. Tepper <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:

: I know of only two, Norrington and Gardiner. Both have been roasted here
: with great glee. I actually like the Gardiner somewhat, despite the
: dullish acoustics.

I saw a broadcast of a live performance led by Gardiner. Boy was it awful.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
It's a bird, it's a plane -- no, it's Mozart. . .
d***@aol.com
2005-12-18 16:26:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Perhaps you should invest in a HIP recording. I'll leave it to the experts to recommend one.
The Norrington is a travesty. The Gardiner is the better of the two,
although it's a typically faceless and nuanceless modern British
performance. At least it's zippy. Not the best imaginable recorded
sound, especially given that many people will buy it to hear the sound
that Gardiner draws from his period instruments. Of course, he loads
the dice, not by using period instruments, but by insisting on the most
lean emaciated "heroin chic" sound he can get. You can almost imagine
Gardiner taking pleasure in skinning cats to produce authentic cat gut
for the strings.

-david gable
Ian Pace
2005-12-18 16:42:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by EM
Perhaps you should invest in a HIP recording. I'll leave it to the
experts to recommend one.
The Norrington is a travesty. The Gardiner is the better of the two,
although it's a typically faceless and nuanceless modern British
performance. At least it's zippy. Not the best imaginable recorded
sound, especially given that many people will buy it to hear the sound
that Gardiner draws from his period instruments. Of course, he loads
the dice, not by using period instruments, but by insisting on the most
lean emaciated "heroin chic" sound he can get. You can almost imagine
Gardiner taking pleasure in skinning cats to produce authentic cat gut
for the strings.
Another view - the Gardiner is concentrated and directed, not at all
nuanceless, though not using late romantic style rubato (how much tempo
fluctuation Berlioz desired over and above that indicated is a debatable
point). The sound is wonderful, hard to describe but unique, recorded in the
original venue, the old hall of the Paris Conservatoire. Gardiner uses
Berlioz's 1830 instrumentation (including ophicleides and a serpent, as well
as period woodwind and brass - listen to the early 19th century French
bassoon sound in the March to the Scaffold, for example). The sound overall
is somewhat thinner than one is used to, but often more biting as a result.
The gut strings produce a markedly different string sonority, not least in
the col legno section in the last movement, which has never sounded more
terrifying. The grotesque elements of the Berlioz are as vivid as I've ever
heard them, and some of the desolation in the third movement comes through
as well as the moments of greater warmth.

Ian
Matthew Silverstein
2005-12-18 16:53:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Pace
Another view - the Gardiner is concentrated and directed, not at all
nuanceless, though not using late romantic style rubato (how much tempo
fluctuation Berlioz desired over and above that indicated is a debatable
point). The sound is wonderful, hard to describe but unique, recorded in the
original venue, the old hall of the Paris Conservatoire.
Not at all hard to describe: dry, harsh, and unpleasant. See?

Matty
Ian Pace
2005-12-18 17:31:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Matthew Silverstein
Post by Ian Pace
Another view - the Gardiner is concentrated and directed, not at all
nuanceless, though not using late romantic style rubato (how much tempo
fluctuation Berlioz desired over and above that indicated is a debatable
point). The sound is wonderful, hard to describe but unique, recorded in the
original venue, the old hall of the Paris Conservatoire.
Not at all hard to describe: dry, harsh, and unpleasant. See?
Dry, yes, sometimes producing harsh sonorities, which is fine by me (there's
plenty of harsh moments in that music), unpleasant - well I'm not sure if
the converse 'pleasant' would be much of an endorsement. :)

Ian
d***@aol.com
2005-12-18 17:05:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
The sound is wonderful, hard to describe but unique, recorded in the original venue, the old hall of the Paris Conservatoire.
I hope you don't believe the slightly fuzzy and recessed (i.e.,
comparatively poor) recorded sound Gardiner's recording is forced to
suffer could ever be said to fairly represent the sound of any hall. A
nice idea sabotaged by the engineers.

-david gable
Ian Pace
2005-12-18 17:32:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Post by Ian Pace
The sound is wonderful, hard to describe but unique, recorded in the
original venue, the old hall of the Paris Conservatoire.
I hope you don't believe the slightly fuzzy and recessed (i.e.,
comparatively poor) recorded sound Gardiner's recording is forced to
suffer could ever be said to fairly represent the sound of any hall. A
nice idea sabotaged by the engineers.
Not having heard that orchestra play in that seating in that hall live, I
can't judge. But I like the sound that this recording produces. Whether any
reording really represents the sound of any hall is another question, which
has nothing in particular to do with HIP any more than with any other
recordings.

Ian
Ian Pace
2005-12-18 14:14:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David M. Li
I'd like to explore more recordings of this marvelous piece.
I have Colin Davis' earlier 3 readings (LSO, Concertgebouw, and VPO),
Bernstein's Century Edition, Munch's in RCA Basic 100, Muti's, and
Karajan's (1965). Surprisingly, I like Karajan's 1965 rendition the best
(especially the first movement), even though I don't care much about
Karajan's Beethoven recordings.
Any other recommendations?
No-one has yet recommended Gardiner/ORR, so I'm going to do so - definitely
a recording you should hear that will give a substantially different view of
the work. One of my favourite recordings of anything.

Ian
tomdeacon
2005-12-18 14:38:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Pace
Post by David M. Li
I'd like to explore more recordings of this marvelous piece.
I have Colin Davis' earlier 3 readings (LSO, Concertgebouw, and VPO),
Bernstein's Century Edition, Munch's in RCA Basic 100, Muti's, and
Karajan's (1965). Surprisingly, I like Karajan's 1965 rendition the best
(especially the first movement), even though I don't care much about
Karajan's Beethoven recordings.
Any other recommendations?
No-one has yet recommended Gardiner/ORR, so I'm going to do so - definitely
a recording you should hear that will give a substantially different view of
the work. One of my favourite recordings of anything.
Strange.

I find it completely without soul, Ian.

We were supposed to like it, of course, as Jiggy was "our" artist, but
I never could.

Actually, I don't even like the three Colin Davis recordings of this
work.

Lese-majeste of the highest order.

TD
d***@aol.com
2005-12-18 16:29:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tomdeacon
Actually, I don't even like the three Colin Davis recordings of this
work.


Each is duller than the last (LSO, Concertgebouw, VPO). He did have a
couple of thrilling Berlioz performances in him in the 60's. I wish
there were a Fantastique mined from the vein that produced his first
recording of Cleopatre.

-david gable
Richard Schultz
2005-12-18 15:59:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <a9epf.47880$***@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net>, Ian Pace <***@ianpace.com> wrote:

: No-one has yet recommended Gardiner/ORR, so I'm going to do so - definitely
: a recording you should hear that will give a substantially different view of
: the work. One of my favourite recordings of anything.

And after each group disintegration, the name of Majakowsky hangs in
the clean air.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
d***@aol.com
2005-12-18 16:36:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
And after each group disintegration, the name of Majakowsky hangs in
the clean air.

This is the funniest and most wicked riposte I've ever read on the
internet.

-david gable
Richard Schultz
2005-12-18 16:48:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <***@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, ***@aol.com <***@aol.com> wrote:
: Richard Schutz wrote:
:
:>And after each group disintegration, the name of Majakowsky hangs in
: the clean air.
:
: This is the funniest and most wicked riposte I've ever read on the
: internet.

Aww, shucks, yer makin' me blush.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
It's a bird, it's a plane -- no, it's Mozart. . .
Michael Lehrman
2005-12-19 17:57:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
:>And after each group disintegration, the name of Majakowsky hangs in
: the clean air.
: This is the funniest and most wicked riposte I've ever read on the
: internet.
Aww, shucks, yer makin' me blush.
If this is so funny, could you explain it to the rest of us. Who is
Majakowsky?
ML
Leopold
2005-12-20 05:58:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael Lehrman
Post by Richard Schultz
:>And after each group disintegration, the name of Majakowsky hangs in
: the clean air.
: This is the funniest and most wicked riposte I've ever read on the
: internet.
Aww, shucks, yer makin' me blush.
If this is so funny, could you explain it to the rest of us. Who is
Majakowsky?
ML
Try typing the whole phrase into your favorite search engine and all
will be revealed...
Leopold
Dave Cook
2005-12-20 06:11:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Leopold
Post by Michael Lehrman
If this is so funny, could you explain it to the rest of us. Who is
Majakowsky?
Try typing the whole phrase into your favorite search engine and all
will be revealed...
Tried that, it just brings me back to another rmcr discussion. Nothing
enlightening there, either.

Dave Cook
Richard Schultz
2005-12-20 09:05:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <%vCpf.689$***@trndny07>, Michael Lehrman <njmfis-***@hotmail.com> wrote:
:> In article <***@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
:> ***@aol.com <***@aol.com> wrote:
:> : Richard Schutz wrote:

:> :>And after each group disintegration, the name of Majakowsky hangs in
:> : the clean air.

:> : This is the funniest and most wicked riposte I've ever read on the
:> : internet.

: If this is so funny, could you explain it to the rest of us. Who is
: Majakowsky?

Run, do not walk, to your nearest CD shop (or, metaphorically, to your
nearest on-line CD seller), purchase a copy of a recording of "Sinfonia"
by Berio (recommended recordings: Berio/NYPO or Boulez/Orchestre National
de France), and have a listen. At that point, the relevance (or to be
more frank, irrelevance) of my remark to Mr. Pace's description of
Gardiner's recording of the Symphonie Fantastique will be, I think, apparent.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"I've lost my harmonica, Albert."
:
Michael Lehrman
2005-12-20 16:52:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Schultz
:> :>And after each group disintegration, the name of Majakowsky hangs in
:> : the clean air.
:> : This is the funniest and most wicked riposte I've ever read on the
:> : internet.
: If this is so funny, could you explain it to the rest of us. Who is
: Majakowsky?
Run, do not walk, to your nearest CD shop (or, metaphorically, to your
nearest on-line CD seller), purchase a copy of a recording of "Sinfonia"
by Berio (recommended recordings: Berio/NYPO or Boulez/Orchestre National
de France), and have a listen. At that point, the relevance (or to be
more frank, irrelevance) of my remark to Mr. Pace's description of
Gardiner's recording of the Symphonie Fantastique will be, I think, apparent.
Shucks, and I hoped to get explanation for free! :)
ML
Dave Cook
2005-12-20 17:11:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael Lehrman
Post by Richard Schultz
nearest on-line CD seller), purchase a copy of a recording of "Sinfonia"
by Berio (recommended recordings: Berio/NYPO or Boulez/Orchestre National
de France), and have a listen. At that point, the relevance (or to be
Shucks, and I hoped to get explanation for free! :)
Forget the money, who wants to listen to Berio?

Dave Cook
Richard Schultz
2005-12-21 05:34:01 UTC
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In article <***@localhost.localdomain>, Dave Cook <***@nowhere.net> wrote:

: Forget the money, who wants to listen to Berio?

To Berio himself, not too many -- at least not without the services of
a medium. To his music, anyone who appreciates the work of one of the
greatest composers of the second half of the 20th century.

-----
Richard Schultz ***@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"What I do object to is uninformed malicious pandering to low level
uncouthness, even if it comes from the holiest of lands, Israel!"
-- Kenneth Lane, Wagnerian Romantischer Heldenspammer
d***@aol.com
2005-12-23 00:06:34 UTC
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Post by Dave Cook
Forget the money, who wants to listen to Berio?
I do.

-david gable
Jan Werner
2005-12-19 00:49:39 UTC
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Post by David M. Li
I'd like to explore more recordings of this marvelous piece.
I have Colin Davis' earlier 3 readings (LSO, Concertgebouw, and VPO),
Bernstein's Century Edition, Munch's in RCA Basic 100, Muti's, and Karajan's
(1965). Surprisingly, I like Karajan's 1965 rendition the best (especially
the first movement), even though I don't care much about Karajan's Beethoven
recordings.
Any other recommendations?
Thanks.
Ataulfo Argenta with the Orchestre du Conservatoire de Paris. Not only
is it an exciting performance in very good sound for 1958 (it was one of
the first Decca ffss stereo recordings), but he actually gets the OCP to
play together, something I don't think I ever heard them do in concert.

I generally like the sound of French orchestras (some might include the
Boston Symphony of yore in that category) in the Symphonie Fantastique.

Jan Werner
--
***@NOSPAM.ORG
Vaneyes
2005-12-19 02:58:16 UTC
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Post by David M. Li
I'd like to explore more recordings of this marvelous piece.
I have Colin Davis' earlier 3 readings (LSO, Concertgebouw, and VPO),
Bernstein's Century Edition, Munch's in RCA Basic 100, Muti's, and Karajan's
(1965). Surprisingly, I like Karajan's 1965 rendition the best (especially
the first movement), even though I don't care much about Karajan's Beethoven
recordings.
Any other recommendations?
Though the Muti is my fave, I'd suggest Leibowitz (w. VSOO, 1957) for
something a li'l different (transitions, solo emphasis), if you can
find the MCA Millennium Classics CD (good remastered 20-bit sound).
Prior to that, it appeared on Westminster LP. Don't think it made it to
Universal Westminster CD.

Regards
Miguel Montfort
2005-12-19 14:50:48 UTC
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Post by Vaneyes
Though the Muti is my fave, I'd suggest Leibowitz (w. VSOO,
1957) for something a li'l different (transitions, solo emphasis),
if you can find the MCA Millennium Classics CD (good remastered
20-bit sound). Prior to that, it appeared on Westminster LP.
Don't think it made it to Universal Westminster CD.
It has - Westminster 471 242-2. Disc-mate(s) is (are)
»Romeo et Juliette« with LSC/LSO/Monteux (1962).

Miguel Montfort
Vaneyes
2005-12-19 16:36:34 UTC
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Post by Miguel Montfort
Post by Vaneyes
Though the Muti is my fave, I'd suggest Leibowitz (w. VSOO,
1957) for something a li'l different (transitions, solo emphasis),
if you can find the MCA Millennium Classics CD (good remastered
20-bit sound). Prior to that, it appeared on Westminster LP.
Don't think it made it to Universal Westminster CD.
It has - Westminster 471 242-2. Disc-mate(s) is (are)
»Romeo et Juliette« with LSC/LSO/Monteux (1962).
Yes, thanks, Miguel. I see what they did. They took the Monteux Berlioz
R & J (1962 w. LSO), and coupled it with the Leibowitz Berlioz SF (date
corrected - 1958 w. VSOO), for a 2CD set (now OOP).

http://iclassics.com/productDetail?contentId=7509

Both performances pre-existed on MCA Millennium Classics (now OOP), as
2CD and single CD, respectively.

SF was then coupled with (a very spooky, boys 'n girls) Sibelius Valse
Triste, and Weber and Tchaikovsky pieces.

This just in. The latter may be available at...

http://www.studio52.gr/info_en.asp?infoID=000008gs

Regards
Alan P Dawes
2005-12-19 13:54:23 UTC
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Post by David M. Li
I'd like to explore more recordings of this marvelous piece.
I have Colin Davis' earlier 3 readings (LSO, Concertgebouw, and VPO),
Bernstein's Century Edition, Munch's in RCA Basic 100, Muti's, and
Karajan's (1965). Surprisingly, I like Karajan's 1965 rendition the
best (especially the first movement), even though I don't care much
about Karajan's Beethoven recordings.
Any other recommendations?
Have you heard the Klemperer performance from 1963? Not necessarily a
first choice, but a well thought out performance which I keep returning
to. Typical Klemperer orchestral layout with violins split to left and
right (unusual for the 1960s although Boult often used this layout) and
clear woodwind.

Another recording that I return to is the Jean Martinon recording from
1973.

The Klemperer was last remastered and released by EMI in 1999 on Klemperer
legacy 5 67034 2. The Martinon is copyright EMI France and I got it (along
with Lelio) on a French EMI Classics 2CD set 5 69650 2 about 12 years ago
- I don't know if it is still available. If you've got a local lending
library you should be able to borrow them via 'interlibrary loan' or
whatever your local system is.

Alan
--
--. --. --. --. : : --- --- ----------------------------
|_| |_| | _ | | | | |_ | ***@argonet.co.uk
| | |\ | | | | |\| | | ***@riscos.org
| | | \ |_| |_| | | |__ | Using an Acorn RiscPC
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-12-19 15:44:55 UTC
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Post by Alan P Dawes
Post by David M. Li
I'd like to explore more recordings of this marvelous piece.
I have Colin Davis' earlier 3 readings (LSO, Concertgebouw, and VPO),
Bernstein's Century Edition, Munch's in RCA Basic 100, Muti's, and
Karajan's (1965). Surprisingly, I like Karajan's 1965 rendition the
best (especially the first movement), even though I don't care much
about Karajan's Beethoven recordings.
Any other recommendations?
Have you heard the Klemperer performance from 1963? Not necessarily a
first choice, but a well thought out performance which I keep returning
to. Typical Klemperer orchestral layout with violins split to left and
right (unusual for the 1960s although Boult often used this layout) and
clear woodwind.
Another recording that I return to is the Jean Martinon recording from
1973.
The Klemperer was last remastered and released by EMI in 1999 on
Klemperer legacy 5 67034 2. The Martinon is copyright EMI France and I
got it (along with Lelio) on a French EMI Classics 2CD set 5 69650 2
about 12 years ago - I don't know if it is still available. If you've
got a local lending library you should be able to borrow them via
'interlibrary loan' or whatever your local system is.
Be careful what you request through interlibrary loan these days:

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-05/12-17-05/a09lo650.htm
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
d***@aol.com
2005-12-19 16:36:01 UTC
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Isn't it wonderful living in a democracy? I just love the free
exchange of ideas..

-david gable
Dave Cook
2005-12-20 05:31:56 UTC
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What about this Munch recording with the Hungarian Radio and TV Orchestra?

http://www.buywell.com/cgi-bin/buywellic2/03614.html

Dave Cook
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-12-20 06:34:38 UTC
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Post by Dave Cook
What about this Munch recording with the Hungarian Radio and TV Orchestra?
http://www.buywell.com/cgi-bin/buywellic2/03614.html
Be aware that it's a dress rehearsal for a radio broadcast, and not all of
the percussionists showed up for the finale.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Dan Koren
2005-12-22 23:35:32 UTC
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Post by David M. Li
I'd like to explore more recordings of this marvelous piece.
I have Colin Davis' earlier 3 readings (LSO, Concertgebouw, and VPO),
Bernstein's Century Edition, Munch's in RCA Basic 100, Muti's, and
Karajan's (1965). Surprisingly, I like Karajan's 1965 rendition the best
(especially the first movement), even though I don't care much about
Karajan's Beethoven recordings.
Neither did Karajan.



dk
benjo maso
2005-12-23 00:06:09 UTC
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Post by David M. Li
I'd like to explore more recordings of this marvelous piece.
I have Colin Davis' earlier 3 readings (LSO, Concertgebouw, and VPO),
Bernstein's Century Edition, Munch's in RCA Basic 100, Muti's, and
Karajan's (1965). Surprisingly, I like Karajan's 1965 rendition the best
(especially the first movement), even though I don't care much about
Karajan's Beethoven recordings.
Any other recommendations?
For what it's worth: here is the opinion of a good friend of mine. Caution:
he owned only 150 recordings when he wrote it (he has 180 now).
http://patachonf.free.fr/musique/berlioz/comments.php

Benjo Maso
Matthew B. Tepper
2005-12-23 00:55:12 UTC
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Post by benjo maso
For what it's worth: here is the opinion of a good friend of mine.
Caution: he owned only 150 recordings when he wrote it (he has 180 now).
http://patachonf.free.fr/musique/berlioz/comments.php
I just today received "Leonard Bernstein Concert Collection," a 9-DVD set
from Kultur. The significance here is that I now have Bernstein's video
presentation of the Berlioz Requiem, which is live and therefore a
different version than his Columbia (Sony) recording, on a round-and-flat
medium that has been officially issued. (Before this, I had had the VHS
tape, which didn't count on the first part, and had searched fruitlessly
for years for the Japanese LaserDisc, which always eluded me.)

A newsgroup member kindly offered to dub for me his copy of just the
Requiem from the set, but I declined, because I wanted to own the actual
item, and it's nicer to buy it anyway. ;--)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
gggg gggg
2021-09-28 05:40:26 UTC
Reply
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Post by David M. Li
I'd like to explore more recordings of this marvelous piece.
I have Colin Davis' earlier 3 readings (LSO, Concertgebouw, and VPO),
Bernstein's Century Edition, Munch's in RCA Basic 100, Muti's, and Karajan's
(1965). Surprisingly, I like Karajan's 1965 rendition the best (especially
the first movement), even though I don't care much about Karajan's Beethoven
recordings.
Any other recommendations?
Thanks.
(Recent Y. upload):

Serge Koussevitzky (1874-1951) Live: Berlioz: Symphonie fantastique (R.16-10-1943)
gggg gggg
2021-10-08 05:10:19 UTC
Reply
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Post by gggg gggg
Post by David M. Li
I'd like to explore more recordings of this marvelous piece.
I have Colin Davis' earlier 3 readings (LSO, Concertgebouw, and VPO),
Bernstein's Century Edition, Munch's in RCA Basic 100, Muti's, and Karajan's
(1965). Surprisingly, I like Karajan's 1965 rendition the best (especially
the first movement), even though I don't care much about Karajan's Beethoven
recordings.
Any other recommendations?
Thanks.
Serge Koussevitzky (1874-1951) Live: Berlioz: Symphonie fantastique (R.16-10-1943)
(Recent Y. upload):

Berlioz: Symphonie fantastique ∙ hr-Sinfonieorchester ∙ Alain Altinoglu
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